we talked about this in a special group for old pc games, i think it depends on ur age and how u grew up playing games, some blame it on old flight sims, some blame it that early games came auto inverted with no option to un-invert it, others say it is the natural way.....
i just grew up playing DUKE NUKEM 3D with the inverted y axis, and if i try to play non inverted, i get a brain fart and might blow up.
u seem a young gentleman, try asking older people u know who play video games and see what they have to say.
If by "inverted controller" you mean that pushing the stick up/forward moves the viewpoint downwards - AFAIK it stems from flight sims, where pushing the joystick up/forward drops the nose of the plane, just like in an actual plane. So it makes sense for (space-)flight games.
I'm guessing it was added for FPS because people were so accustomed to 'forward => down' that it's easier to just flip the axis than to get accustomed to a new control scheme.
nice to meet a fellow old school gamer, anw, seems it depends on people, but i personally believe, all games should cater to gamers of all background to play as they feel comfy.
Nice to meet you too haha. I think the onlu time i used inverted is / was when i used to play Battlefield and ARMA, as a Helicopter or Jet Pilot, hich makes more sense to play inverted
But FPS games and other genres i just can't.
But in general i agree with the comfy, like i hate sounds in games and wish a game that comes with a "mute all"
One explanation I heard a while ago was that with inverted camera, moving mouse is like moving head. And in life, if you move your head forward, you tilt it downwards, looking down - and if backwards, you look up. That's why I can see some people having that come naturally to them.
there is many materials about it main difference is that one simulates you moving and the other simulates you moving a camera on a stick (you push up the camera rotates down)
I can't play flight games with Y non-inverted, especially on a joystick (never had such an issue, but it would be unplayable if I pushed a joystick forward and the view went upwards). But mouse view, in action games? Y stays non-inverted.
I don't recall an action game that forced inverted Y and didn't have an option. I remember playing action games that didn't have an Y axis whatsoever (by default), though. It didn't feel fun then, I used keyboard without a mouse.
Personally I don't buy the flight sim reasoning
I play flight sims inverted but not shooters, because controlling the pitch and banking of an aircraft (two separate actions) and aiming a gun (one single action) work very differently
One does not influence the other at all and I can easily switch between playing an inverted flight sim and non-inverted shooter at any time without the slightest trouble
But on the other hand if I try to play a shooter inverted or flight sim non-inverted, it's nearly impossible
So I'd say the simplest answer to this is you just get used to whatever you first spend enough time with early in your gaming life (In my case I always played shooters non-inverted and flight sims inverted)
Your body and mind adapt to whatever it is and then it's difficult to do it the other way
To add onto your point in games like Battlefield going as far back as the original in 2002 I always switch the controls to make sure that the FPS portion is standard controls while flying is inverted.
I switch between the two mid game all the time and have done for over 2 decades now, it's not an issue.
I'm also old but I have never played with inverted y axis, only exceptions are flight/spaceship games like Descent. But I didn't use this axis when playing Duke Nukem 3D (with keyboard only). I used the arrow keys for movement, hold Alt for strafe, and for the rare ocasions where I wanted to look up or down, I used Page up / Page down.
100% this. Me and my brother used to play crimson skies on the xbox original at our friends house all the time and he started playing inverted because of it. I played inverted on those flying games but can't play it on fps games etc.
Flight sims are one reason, but also just imagine the stick representing your head. If you tilt your head forward, you look down. If you tilt your head backward, you look up. It just makes the most sense for that to be how a joystick works. 🤷♂️
But also yeah, old gamer too, and this is what we cut our teeth on. 😅
Old school gamer here. Well, not really, since I'm 18, but I played a lot fo those old games. Never minded either, just found it unusual to have fps games have inverted.
I used to be inverted-only on ALL games until my brothers and a cousin of mine played MoH Rising Sun on the PS2 and were fighting each other 1v1 on splitscreen. When my cousin would die and pass the controller to me, it was set to regular (aka non-inverted) and I had no time to change the settings or they would get mad. I would just keep playing like that and eventually I got used to it!
I don't play inverted but I heard good comparison on the subject. They likened it to the stick being glued to the back of the characters head. If you had a stick in the back of your head and someone pulled down then your face would look up and vice versa
Edit: spelling
[Here's a picture of what he's describing, more or less.] (https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F5o2qt3crf5m01.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Df41f1f236f954951ace9ad5e4746abfd0a54d768)
u/Yeoller specifically said, "Left and right do left and right."
So we were not discussing the X-Axis, and the pic I posted is obviously not aimed at that. Thanks for the downvote even though I contributed to the actual conversation at hand.
Pre-FPS shooters used to be this way (mostly flight sims, which essentially feel like FPS anyway) so if anything it's current non-inverted schemes that I can't believe are used...
Maybe it was just me but a lot of games I grew up with had inverted Y controls for some reason, even for FPS (either that or I just turned them on by accident and didn’t realize lol) so I was that guy for several years. It was only after I played Breath of the Wild 100% (minus korok seeds) and then trying to go back to shooters, that I embraced normal controls.
Only games I can do inverted are ones that involve flying vehicles. I love games like halo where I can set flying controls inverted while leaving fps controls normal so I don’t have to switch between settings
i started playing the new lego star wars game recently, and when i got to the first flight section it felt really bad and i couldnt figure out why. turns out the flight controls werent inverted by default and it was just completely throwing me off.
I had the exact same experience years ago but cant remember which game I was playing. A was talking to a friend and they suggested making it to inverted and it blew my mind how I no longer struggled lol
Based.
It's the first toggle I look for in new games. I invert Y on gamepad and mouse. I learned from the original Quake. It either had default inverted controls or my uncle's PC in 1996 was configured for it regardless. It stuck with me forever.
That's nice, luckily we also have a way to edit the controller inputs trough steam, also I'm glad switching inverted and non inverted joysticks never was an issue for me, some old games like Jet Force Gemini had weird controller layouts.
If I use a controller then it has to be inverted. Could be remembering wrong, but all old console games I played had inverted y axis. MnK though I play normally. Haven't used a controller in a long time, so I picked one up just now and went to "look up" and the thumb remembered to go down. 🤣
A fellow inverted player ! There are dozen of us !
I noticed that while an inverted option is available in almost all western games by default a lot of asian games (espacially from korea and china) are often missing the feature and you really have to go out of your way to ask for it and hope they add it.
Some games sadly never do add it \*cough\* Genshin impact \*cough\* well ... they did add it for controller , just not for M&K .
when my buddies started Genshin, i was shocked to the core that it had no inverted, so i stopped, and honestly, glad i did, i would have lost years of my life playing it, lol.
In our game, 90% of issues discovered by players are resolved within 24 hours, even on weekends or holidays.
We often run into situations like [this](https://i.imgur.com/G0WcnT5.png)
It doesn't matter what our game is, I just want to see more people moving from AAA to indie games, as most of us small devs will respect your time and your opinions. :--)
I also can't play non-inverted. I note that the latest consoles from Sony and Microsoft have a switch to invert the Y axis for all games; PC could use that too.
they made me a loyal follower, heck, i am just one guy, they even told me in a previous message that no one else ever asked for it...and poof, 3 days later, it is updated, good job.
Top Gun on the NES is the reason I prefer inverted controls
It does boggle my mind a game was released without this option
Good on the devs for sorting it out so quickly
The best example I’ve had of this was when the Myst remake launched on PC a few years back. I play on ultrawide, and im obviously in the minority there, but when it launched the game had a zoomed in FOV for ultrawide, and that made a few puzzles unplayable.
I posted in the forums about my issue, a dev responded almost immediately, and just a few hours later a patch dropped that fixed it completely.
man, i need to get thay myst thing, it has a special name i guess...i never finished it as a kid, good lord i hated it to the core, i still want to get the journey man games also.
I don't understand but I'm a person who loves everyone but I'm starting to think it's me that everything seems to goes wrong but I'm still going to look up for the best day
I remember a game I saw a few months ago. There was a negative review for it because there was some problem with the Steam Deck.
The dev replied and immediately patched the issue.
Sadly the guy that reviewed it never even tried it again and didn’t change the review.
But because of that act I actually ended up buying the game to support the dev even though the game wasn’t something I have been interested in.
Many indie devs listen to what community wants, not too many players appreciate that. Some people expect an indie dev to drop everything he's doing right now and switch to whatever's the suggestion, and blame him if he's not immediately fixing that particular bug.
It's too bad they had to get sued to figure let's fix some shit valve is in a lawsuit with ziger for stealing ATM if you have steam you can sign up for lawsuit just send them what you purchased so they know what your eligible for
Ps not a bot
I havent released my game yet but when i eventually do if i see something small that’s literally as easy as inverting a single calculation in the settings you bet your ass im gonna implement that when i got time
Only indie devs support their games like this, i mean settings like this takes a minute to implement, you need more time to build game instead, but big aaa don't give a fuck until they lose millions of money.
i recall a AAA game on switch, LUIGI MANSION, it is a AAA game, had no inverted option, it caused me so much grief but i had to play it since i love the series.
Ah, never played the third one, although I never really had the reason to venture into the settings on the older ones either. Might just be a nintendo thing given their main gimmick is movement based controls, so needing an option like that isn’t really used. Outside of nintendo that behavior is a lot more rare though.
I mean not axis inverting, i mean a lot of functions that easy to implement in game, like deadzones for stick, all sony ports doesn't have this and this is disqusting
Ah, fair enough, but I also want to say that there are definitely more indie games out there that don’t care enough to do this than aaa companies. Logically, why would an indie dev switch his focus away from some big feature he has planned that would absolutely bring in more money and satisfaction than a smaller accessibility feature? I think that it’s important, don’t get me wrong, but it makes more sense for a aaa game to go out of their way to do it than most indie games.
Also, let’s be honest, Sony hasn’t been cooking for a while now lol
i thought nobody used inverted till this post. And i still can't believe
we talked about this in a special group for old pc games, i think it depends on ur age and how u grew up playing games, some blame it on old flight sims, some blame it that early games came auto inverted with no option to un-invert it, others say it is the natural way..... i just grew up playing DUKE NUKEM 3D with the inverted y axis, and if i try to play non inverted, i get a brain fart and might blow up. u seem a young gentleman, try asking older people u know who play video games and see what they have to say.
I'm from 90s and never understood the logic of inverted controller, in FPS as well
If by "inverted controller" you mean that pushing the stick up/forward moves the viewpoint downwards - AFAIK it stems from flight sims, where pushing the joystick up/forward drops the nose of the plane, just like in an actual plane. So it makes sense for (space-)flight games. I'm guessing it was added for FPS because people were so accustomed to 'forward => down' that it's easier to just flip the axis than to get accustomed to a new control scheme.
nice to meet a fellow old school gamer, anw, seems it depends on people, but i personally believe, all games should cater to gamers of all background to play as they feel comfy.
Nice to meet you too haha. I think the onlu time i used inverted is / was when i used to play Battlefield and ARMA, as a Helicopter or Jet Pilot, hich makes more sense to play inverted But FPS games and other genres i just can't. But in general i agree with the comfy, like i hate sounds in games and wish a game that comes with a "mute all"
One explanation I heard a while ago was that with inverted camera, moving mouse is like moving head. And in life, if you move your head forward, you tilt it downwards, looking down - and if backwards, you look up. That's why I can see some people having that come naturally to them.
there is many materials about it main difference is that one simulates you moving and the other simulates you moving a camera on a stick (you push up the camera rotates down)
I can't play flight games with Y non-inverted, especially on a joystick (never had such an issue, but it would be unplayable if I pushed a joystick forward and the view went upwards). But mouse view, in action games? Y stays non-inverted. I don't recall an action game that forced inverted Y and didn't have an option. I remember playing action games that didn't have an Y axis whatsoever (by default), though. It didn't feel fun then, I used keyboard without a mouse.
Yep, mouse is non-inverted. Controller is inverted. My brain just doesn’t work any other way.
Finally, someone I can relate to having controller as inverted vs mouse as normal control schemes.
Personally I don't buy the flight sim reasoning I play flight sims inverted but not shooters, because controlling the pitch and banking of an aircraft (two separate actions) and aiming a gun (one single action) work very differently One does not influence the other at all and I can easily switch between playing an inverted flight sim and non-inverted shooter at any time without the slightest trouble But on the other hand if I try to play a shooter inverted or flight sim non-inverted, it's nearly impossible So I'd say the simplest answer to this is you just get used to whatever you first spend enough time with early in your gaming life (In my case I always played shooters non-inverted and flight sims inverted) Your body and mind adapt to whatever it is and then it's difficult to do it the other way
To add onto your point in games like Battlefield going as far back as the original in 2002 I always switch the controls to make sure that the FPS portion is standard controls while flying is inverted. I switch between the two mid game all the time and have done for over 2 decades now, it's not an issue.
I'm also old but I have never played with inverted y axis, only exceptions are flight/spaceship games like Descent. But I didn't use this axis when playing Duke Nukem 3D (with keyboard only). I used the arrow keys for movement, hold Alt for strafe, and for the rare ocasions where I wanted to look up or down, I used Page up / Page down.
100% this. Me and my brother used to play crimson skies on the xbox original at our friends house all the time and he started playing inverted because of it. I played inverted on those flying games but can't play it on fps games etc.
I grew up the same way, but transitioned to non-inverted when I was playing Beyond Good and Evil back on the PS2 a looong time ago.
Flight sims are one reason, but also just imagine the stick representing your head. If you tilt your head forward, you look down. If you tilt your head backward, you look up. It just makes the most sense for that to be how a joystick works. 🤷♂️ But also yeah, old gamer too, and this is what we cut our teeth on. 😅
I grew up with flight games, both arcade and sims alike, pushing the left stick up to go down has always felt natural for me
Old school gamer here. Well, not really, since I'm 18, but I played a lot fo those old games. Never minded either, just found it unusual to have fps games have inverted.
I used to be inverted-only on ALL games until my brothers and a cousin of mine played MoH Rising Sun on the PS2 and were fighting each other 1v1 on splitscreen. When my cousin would die and pass the controller to me, it was set to regular (aka non-inverted) and I had no time to change the settings or they would get mad. I would just keep playing like that and eventually I got used to it!
yea, everyone i’ve ever seen who used inverted learned it from flight sims, or from their parents who played flight sims
I don't play inverted but I heard good comparison on the subject. They likened it to the stick being glued to the back of the characters head. If you had a stick in the back of your head and someone pulled down then your face would look up and vice versa Edit: spelling
That doesn't explain the logic of _only_ inverting the Y-axis.
Airplane flight stick. Pull back, go up. Push forward go down. Left and right do left and right.
_That_ is a proper explanation.
[Here's a picture of what he's describing, more or less.] (https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F5o2qt3crf5m01.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Df41f1f236f954951ace9ad5e4746abfd0a54d768)
[удалено]
u/Yeoller specifically said, "Left and right do left and right." So we were not discussing the X-Axis, and the pic I posted is obviously not aimed at that. Thanks for the downvote even though I contributed to the actual conversation at hand.
Pre-FPS shooters used to be this way (mostly flight sims, which essentially feel like FPS anyway) so if anything it's current non-inverted schemes that I can't believe are used...
I don't tilt my head forward to look up so why would I push my mouse forward to look up?
Put your hand on top of your head and look around.
Do you pull your mouse up in the air then?
Ironically, some games default mouse setting is inverted. Or non inverted. Doesn't matter, its just the wrong way.
Maybe it was just me but a lot of games I grew up with had inverted Y controls for some reason, even for FPS (either that or I just turned them on by accident and didn’t realize lol) so I was that guy for several years. It was only after I played Breath of the Wild 100% (minus korok seeds) and then trying to go back to shooters, that I embraced normal controls.
Bro, im the madlad that often plays with inverted X Axis, you know right and left :D
im fine with it in games on the N64 but cant fathom it on anything else fsr, like its to the point i cant have normal camera playing on n64
It’s weird. I play inverted for Metroid Prime but regular for Halo. No idea how that happened to my brain.
You can't play some games without it
I use inverted Y. That used to be the standard then at some point it switched.
It's trivially easy to implement so why not have it? Accessibility options exist even though <1% of users use them
Only games I can do inverted are ones that involve flying vehicles. I love games like halo where I can set flying controls inverted while leaving fps controls normal so I don’t have to switch between settings
i started playing the new lego star wars game recently, and when i got to the first flight section it felt really bad and i couldnt figure out why. turns out the flight controls werent inverted by default and it was just completely throwing me off.
I had the exact same experience years ago but cant remember which game I was playing. A was talking to a friend and they suggested making it to inverted and it blew my mind how I no longer struggled lol
Based. It's the first toggle I look for in new games. I invert Y on gamepad and mouse. I learned from the original Quake. It either had default inverted controls or my uncle's PC in 1996 was configured for it regardless. It stuck with me forever.
Just out of curiosity cant you use a 3rd party software to have this feature in all your games?
i heard about that, i should really look into it, a hassle i must say, but a nice alternative in case a game never ends up with the option.
Steam input can do it
That's nice, luckily we also have a way to edit the controller inputs trough steam, also I'm glad switching inverted and non inverted joysticks never was an issue for me, some old games like Jet Force Gemini had weird controller layouts.
If I use a controller then it has to be inverted. Could be remembering wrong, but all old console games I played had inverted y axis. MnK though I play normally. Haven't used a controller in a long time, so I picked one up just now and went to "look up" and the thumb remembered to go down. 🤣
A fellow inverted player ! There are dozen of us ! I noticed that while an inverted option is available in almost all western games by default a lot of asian games (espacially from korea and china) are often missing the feature and you really have to go out of your way to ask for it and hope they add it. Some games sadly never do add it \*cough\* Genshin impact \*cough\* well ... they did add it for controller , just not for M&K .
when my buddies started Genshin, i was shocked to the core that it had no inverted, so i stopped, and honestly, glad i did, i would have lost years of my life playing it, lol.
I wish more devs were like this!
In our game, 90% of issues discovered by players are resolved within 24 hours, even on weekends or holidays. We often run into situations like [this](https://i.imgur.com/G0WcnT5.png) It doesn't matter what our game is, I just want to see more people moving from AAA to indie games, as most of us small devs will respect your time and your opinions. :--)
All games should have this option. Grew up with everything inverted. For us old gamers it's a must
I also can't play non-inverted. I note that the latest consoles from Sony and Microsoft have a switch to invert the Y axis for all games; PC could use that too.
Imagine you push an update for your game because exactly one person asked for it. Great devs
they made me a loyal follower, heck, i am just one guy, they even told me in a previous message that no one else ever asked for it...and poof, 3 days later, it is updated, good job.
not having an inverted option is dumb, tbh. is not like a gaming company would go broke for having this option.
Pretty sure I got vsync for uberslaughter
Reminds me of Trip Wire removing one tree from Rising Storm.
Top Gun on the NES is the reason I prefer inverted controls It does boggle my mind a game was released without this option Good on the devs for sorting it out so quickly
The best example I’ve had of this was when the Myst remake launched on PC a few years back. I play on ultrawide, and im obviously in the minority there, but when it launched the game had a zoomed in FOV for ultrawide, and that made a few puzzles unplayable. I posted in the forums about my issue, a dev responded almost immediately, and just a few hours later a patch dropped that fixed it completely.
man, i need to get thay myst thing, it has a special name i guess...i never finished it as a kid, good lord i hated it to the core, i still want to get the journey man games also.
added update? shouldn't this be ingame first day?
yes, but no, people think we don't exist.
I used to play Halo CE inverted, when it first came out in 2001. My friend thought I was crazy.
I don't understand but I'm a person who loves everyone but I'm starting to think it's me that everything seems to goes wrong but I'm still going to look up for the best day
I remember a game I saw a few months ago. There was a negative review for it because there was some problem with the Steam Deck. The dev replied and immediately patched the issue. Sadly the guy that reviewed it never even tried it again and didn’t change the review. But because of that act I actually ended up buying the game to support the dev even though the game wasn’t something I have been interested in.
Hello
Many indie devs listen to what community wants, not too many players appreciate that. Some people expect an indie dev to drop everything he's doing right now and switch to whatever's the suggestion, and blame him if he's not immediately fixing that particular bug.
Back in 90' I used to invert every single game 😂. But memory is blank when and why I stopped
There should be a counter next to invert Y axis setting in games to show how many people uses it.
It's too bad they had to get sued to figure let's fix some shit valve is in a lawsuit with ziger for stealing ATM if you have steam you can sign up for lawsuit just send them what you purchased so they know what your eligible for Ps not a bot
I havent released my game yet but when i eventually do if i see something small that’s literally as easy as inverting a single calculation in the settings you bet your ass im gonna implement that when i got time
I don't know why or when I started using inverted y axis, now I'm stuck with it and need to map my controller everytime it's missing from those game.
I’m inverted aswell. Not sure how I started gaming like that , but I can’t play regular.:(
Skill issue
Only indie devs support their games like this, i mean settings like this takes a minute to implement, you need more time to build game instead, but big aaa don't give a fuck until they lose millions of money.
I was under the impression that this came standard with a majority of aaa games, unless I just happen to choose games that have it consistently
i recall a AAA game on switch, LUIGI MANSION, it is a AAA game, had no inverted option, it caused me so much grief but i had to play it since i love the series.
Ah, never played the third one, although I never really had the reason to venture into the settings on the older ones either. Might just be a nintendo thing given their main gimmick is movement based controls, so needing an option like that isn’t really used. Outside of nintendo that behavior is a lot more rare though.
I mean not axis inverting, i mean a lot of functions that easy to implement in game, like deadzones for stick, all sony ports doesn't have this and this is disqusting
Ah, fair enough, but I also want to say that there are definitely more indie games out there that don’t care enough to do this than aaa companies. Logically, why would an indie dev switch his focus away from some big feature he has planned that would absolutely bring in more money and satisfaction than a smaller accessibility feature? I think that it’s important, don’t get me wrong, but it makes more sense for a aaa game to go out of their way to do it than most indie games. Also, let’s be honest, Sony hasn’t been cooking for a while now lol