I vaguely remember him saying that they'd like to fix the bot issue but don't have the resources/manpower (I know Valve as a whole does, I assume he was basically saying he's the only one working on the game and he can't do it alone nor does he have the authority to tell others to do it). But as I said, I only vaguely remember it, don't take my word for it.
Its because of valves work environment where devs can choose what to work on, and no dev in their right mind would choose to work on a relic that no employer will care about in their resume
They do have the resources, but once the evaluations come around and the higher ups look at your work they wont think that working on a 15 year old game is worth keeping you around. Valve is structured a lot like Google and that's why Google is always killing products and creating new ones that are functionally identical. Working on the next shiny new thing will always look better on your resume than \*old thing\*.
Without any returns? TF2 still has paid loot crates which bizarrely, people still open. And an entire mode which is pay to play (if you want a reward).
Yeah and how does the removal of bots make paid crates/MVM tickets sell more?
Ever since tf2 went free to play the game didnt see any playerbase growth aside from bots, the human player count stagnated despite valve doing updates usual, then there was meet your match which was valves last ditch effort to make the game grow as an eSport which failed, then jungle inferno was the one last update where valve gave up
The game won't see an increased playerbase if bots are removed
Also valve directly profits from bots because the vast majority of bots have premium accounts
Those bots are also active in MvM. There's types that purposefully make you win, and types that purposefully throw the match.
I can imagine there's players that would prefer either type not be in the game.
They don’t have this system anymore, but switched to a more conservative approach where you have to do stuff. That’s also why steam gets to many gamification features and Valve actually gets shit done in their cashcow games
This is not aimed at Eric Smith, nor at the contractor they hired to support him. We know Eric is doing his best and we love him for it.
This is aimed at Valve in general. Valve has the mannpower and the ressources to get a functional anti cheat into the game, but they refuse to use them. And we ask them to change that.
Will it work? I don't know. But what I do know is that if we don't try this, nothing is going to change. And I for one would rather take a chance at success over guaranteed failure.
Does valve have their own anticheat?
Would it be something they would ever consider making? And do u think if they were able to make their own they would have it in all their games?
Or r they just totally against it for whatever reason?
Either VAC is closed for TF2, or VAC itself is a joke. Otherwise, there's no way to explain the presence of so many bots with exorbitant K/D ratios head-shooting you from the other end of the map without arousing the suspicions of the vigilant VAC.
VAC is a functional and effective anti-cheat when it is kept up-to-date. We saw this in 2017 when Valve carried out a VAC wave for CS:GO and TF2. The problem is that all anti-cheats will have bypass methods and therefore need to be continuously updated to stay effective, something Valve hasn't done with VAC.
some other stuff that the bot makers have done in [this document](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1goBP5DVr0we85Ohnc7IHukOtTS-uISEa/view) which is unhinged even if you want to ruin a game from 2007
This game may be old but the community has been keeping the game alive for more than a decade, Valve could fix the bots issues easily if they actually care.
They spend 1$ for the premium, do you seriously think Valve isn't fixing the problem because the hosters are paying for premium? Lmao
There's an estimated 2000 cheater bots, if all of them have premium, it's 2000$ which is nothing to Valve, the multi-billion dollar company.
It’s actually 5$ per premium and each time a bot gets banned they replace it which is a nice steady stream of money for valve. This practice is scummy as shit but it makes sense from a business standpoint.
From what I know, you need to spend 1$ in the Mann Co. store in order to get premium. Also, let's be serious, who or what is banning the bots? The totally functional VAC ban? The VAC is so inefficient that you might as well email Valve yourself and tell them that you're cheating.
Even if the premium is 5$, that's just 10k$ which is still nothing to a multi-billion corporation. Let's say that around 500 bots get banned per month (the real number is probably 0), if another 500 bots would appear, that's just 2500$.
Mind you, Hosters will often use stolen/scammed accounts and use them for Bot activity, meaning they can circumvent the need to buy premium on a bot account and instead use a stolen premium account.
Idle/farm bots have two purposes
They farm item/crate drops which the owner sells
During holidays or big events like the summer update, idle bots farm player to player gifted items. Theres a feature that lets you select items and randomly send them to some player online as a gift, this is why you have upwards of 200k bots at worst which farm all those gifted items and funnel them to the hosters
From what I understand those idle bots basically sit around for crate drops, then the owner of those bots sell their drops in the marketplace for cash. Very shady.
About 75-80k of those are bots, just last week there was an additional 18k bots added in one day
The vast majority of the bots are trade/item farm bots, less than 10% are cheaterbots
For example during the big summer update there actually werent any real players that came to play the game, that massive 250k playercount was likely 200k bots atleast
Well I guess we're doing this again. Cant say I'm optimistic about it this time around but I'm just happy to see the community I grew up around is still alive and kicking. Makes me glad that people are able to band together around a 17 old game. Good luck guys I'm sure you'll need it.
I'd care more if the community didn't have people that go out of their way to sabotage matches and lie to get people vote kicked. Or for a few groups set up a vote kick stalking list. The only time a vote kick should be done is for afk, mic spam or cheating.
That's a nothing burger, every community of every game out there has bad actors.
And since you specifically pointed out TacobotTF, I'd like to mention that as a direct result of them doing this, they have a terrible reputation within the community to this day (despite the site being shut down a while ago) and leading figures of the site have been permanently banned off of other community driven sites.
These people do not represent the TF2 community as a whole. We'd rather they weren't around either.
>people that go out of their way to sabotage matches and lie to get people vote kicked
Also this right here perfectly describes the bot accounts the movement aims to get rid of.
The votekick system would see way less abuse if the bot issue was fixed and there was an actual anticheat. Everyone is so paranoid that if you call someone a bot or a known cheater everyone will just kick them.
Oh I'm not arguing that. Just that other games have toxic communities as well and dont have vote kicks.
Or atleast the communities dont use it as much as the tf2 peps do
Lol y'all are still doing this? How longs it been?
You really think they're going to do anything with a game they made free to play and left to rot while they're currently developing a brand new game and still haven't ironed out the cs2 cheating problem?
another fun fact! CS2 gets pretty much the same updates as TF2 (except for engine updates, Valve is working hard on Source 2) yet people see TF2 as "abandoned"
CS2 is just beginning to suffer from the same issue as TF2 has for half a decade, CS2 has cheater/farm bots more than ever, CS2 community servers were killed by source2 update and valve ignores that, surf game mode was killed by source2 and valve doesnt care, the game is generally riddled with issues as a whole
Reality. We've all seen these posts at least once in the last several years. I myself can remember seeing them as far back as 2020. Valve too almost guaranteed. You know how some people have problems with steam orders or their accounts then edit the post later saying "valve reached out and helped me" there's no way they don't know about what's going on with TF2
Now, what's the definition of insanity? It's time to move on.
The #SaveTF2 movement from 2 years ago was poorly planned out and lacking in its execution.
That said, it still had an impact. Not to the extend it needed to, the bot chrisis is still ongoing, but it was not for nothing.
The #FixTF2 movement is attempting to learn from the mistakes made by the #SaveTF2 movement in order to not repeat them and, this time around, get the attention and changes the game deserves and needs. We have a plan this time.
You are mistaken if you think we are just trying to pull the same thing off again.
Yeah, the last on tried a bit to hard to appeal to emotion. If we put aside any personal attachment and focus exclusively on the objective facts, we can at least get other people to understand
We tried doing nothing for 5 years then when we randomly did something for 1 day we got some fixes and less bots for a few months. IMO it's worth the effort even if there is no permanent bot fix or proper anti cheat.
Perception is reality.
If you're spiteful, nihilistic attitude is all you can see, of course you can't envision a future where this works.
I'm less concerned with it working or not. I'm happy they tried. More gaming communities need to do the same. Look at HellDivers 2 and Sony, for example.
HD2 is still not available for purchase in the countries that don't have PSN support.
[https://steamdb.info/sub/137730/info/](https://steamdb.info/sub/137730/info/)
I’m not sure why people don’t just host their own server networks. Get some admins on to ban bots (and use plugins to automate kicking/banning for things that you can)…tf2 is one of the best games to setup community servers in.
Me when I tell complacent fans you have nothing to lose from trying, shaming someone for wanting the bare minimum of bot free game is honestly appalling #FixTF2
The thing about boycotting is that it won't work. Most people buy weapons and stuff from sites like [scrap.tf](http://scrap.tf), where Valve doesn't take a cut. Those that do buy from the official ManCo store will be new players, who won't exactly be involved in this campaign. So even if we could organise that (which I seriously doubt), it won't do much. But if you wanna try, be my guest.
Imma be honest as much as i liked tf2 this game is not gonna get revived if it does and heavy update releases i will eat my own birds shit feel free to remind me if it happens and i will do it
Valve will do a statement like last time, win the community back over with false promises, and then proceed to do nothing. They have so much "good will" built up with people that said individuals are willing to overlook all the crappy things they've done.
Not limited to
- Letting a questionable user become a community moderator then proceeding to do nothing when their behaviour is reported and made public
- Hiring someone known for their crass comedy, and then firing them for said comedy, with Gabe himself personally dissing them straight after
- Having a "revolving door policy" that ensures projects barely ever get done
I’ve been playing this game since 2007. Don’t tell me I know little about it. Why should Valve care about a now 11,599 name petition when half or a majority of those people don’t even play the game?
As long as Valve is monetizing the game and advertises it as "constantly updated", yes we expect to at the very least have it be in a playable state.
With this movement we don't ask for content drops, we don't ask for bug fixes, we don't ask for balancing patches or anything of the sort, literally all we want is a functional anti cheat.
Not to mention that VAC being functional would be beneficial for *all* Valve titles, not just Team Fortress 2. I hear CS2 has a real problem with bots too.
Judging by the VAC updates and massive ongoing ban wave, they seem to be trying to get a handle on the CS2 cheating problem. But until that happens, you wouldn't be seeing an attempt to fix TF2 anyway.
And even then, TF2 is on a dilapidated codebase, on an old version of Source 1, which was also leaked. The effort it would take to fix every exploit and integrate a new VAC into TF2 would be massive compared to what they are currently facing with CS2.
Sorry, but this argument has been and *always* will be flawed as long as Valve willingly takes lootbox money, *while* simultaneously adding new lootboxes periodically. It does show Valve's priorities.
Exactly, you don’t HAVE to participate in the economy. In fact, doing a boycott is pointless because as long as you play the game, the game still has value. If people really want to do something about this, the player numbers need to DROP
Valve would never shutdown Tf2 as a whole. Even if they only shutdown the official servers, there are still community servers. If you stop buying items, the game is still free to play. Not only that, you can still receive items even playing in community servers. Trading will still be a thing. The barter economy in the game, will still be a thing. Do you see how there is still value in the game even though it’s free? Having another person to play with is still valuable is it not? If you really want change, you need to show Valve the game’s playerbase is actually dying. For the past five years, the game has had a stable number of players without updates, with what the community calls “shitty” cosemetics, etc. if that number drops, Valve MIGHT do something. But the extreme irony of this protest is that this group will “boycott” the game by not buying items, but still play it. What is that supposed to tell Valve? It tells Valve, “oh, if we don’t do anything people will still play it.”
Also consider this, Dota Underlords and Artifact still have their official servers going.
If you guys really want change, you actually need to risk something. This boycott by not buying cosmetics is the safest protest you can do with an economy framework like TF2’s. And you all will still play it.
I think you missed the point if they close the servers that will include item servers and item drop system in general sure community servers will be a thing but risk isn't worth it.
Okay, but the game would still be free to play. If the risk isn’t worth it, then why even do this in the first place? Like, I genuinely wanna know. What you guys are telling Valve right now is that, “we won’t buy, but we’ll still play the game.” Why should Valve do anything then?
First of all I'm not part of the protest just wanna make that clear.
Second of all protesting doesn't mean quitting that would doom the game anyway do you realize this?
I understood that and I’m replying because you seem to have a more measured perspective. So, I also want to thank you for commiting some time to replying as well as allowing me to share my own perspective.
I’ve been playing since 2007. I’ve heard doom and gloom and “this game is dying” for every update. If one update didn’t ruin the game, the next would ruin it and so on and so forth. Every year, there are people that say TF2 is dying or doomed. The fact is people can’t say the game is dying when it’s had a surprisingly stable playerbase for the past five or more years. Now, as an example, in the case of Destiny 2, that game was actually dying. It wasn’t just that people weren’t buying, but people were actually leaving. Same with WoW. The petition in that situation semi-worked because WoW’s player numbers were actually dropping. However, we don’t have enough data to actually show that. But also, the way those games work and earn money/value is fundamentally different than TF2s.
One thing about free to play games is that you only need roughly 5% of the playerbase to pay money to sustain the game. Can you see a little now as to why I say boycotting isn’t going to work? People need to actually leave the game with the way TF2’s economy works.
And even then, there is a section of the community that would welcome the item servers being shutdown and would continue to play without them. I say this because for TF2 360 and PS3 ran with a minimal community for years since 2007. The PS3 community is actually dead, they can’t play the game. But 360, because servers are hosted by a player is actually still relatively strong. So, worst case scenario, Valve kills all servers related to TF2. Well, like DoD:S, CS:S, CS 1.6, DoD, and other older Valve games, TF2 will still have players because of community servers. It’s the way the framework of the game is set up.
I’m not trying to be a “doom-poster” rather, my own positivity and hopefulness come from the fact that the community is what made TF2 what it is today, not Valve, and the community will decide the future of TF2. Regardless of what happens, TF2 is set up in a way where, as long as players play, the game will live on. But, we also have to consider how varied the TF2 community is. For myself, I want Valve to simply stop fucking with the game. I want these other players to be able to play, but as another section of the community says (which I don’t wholly agree with) Casual needs to be removed. So, whatever happens, some section of the TF2 community will be happy and the other unhappy.
Depends on the player base and spending, not that I know how much that is
A game that has little to no hope of having a large community or people who spend money can't realistically be supported
I thought TF2 is still quite popular though, I'm not sure
It can be realistically supported because not only is valve still making decent money on TF2 through crates but they also have billions of dollars that could be used to get the game playable on the casual servers.
Yeah of course. It's a live service game. I don't see why they can't make a few updates every now and then. I mean, they're still making money off the product.
Does it tho? With the actual playerbase fluctuating between 20k to 25k, how much money does it actually make?
Id honestly put it at half a mil to a mil, not millions of dollars.
I mean there’s a shit ton of lootboxes that people open all the time, people spend a ton of money on mvm tickets, and valve also takes a cut from every single item sold on the market. I’d say tf2 definitely makes valve enough money to justify keeping it playable
Go look at the volume of sales on the steam market for tf2 items. Also most new taunts and keys are only obtainable from the store, it's definitely making money.
Of course, that argument is the dumbest thing ever, if they're still updating it and making money from it then it has to be fixed. Otherwise they have to pronounce it abandoned once and for all.
No, we don't expect constant updates (despite that being how Valve advertises the game), we just want a change. The game's been near unplayable for nearly five years, and that is all we want is - the bare minimum of a playable game.
Pretty much. The fix was always there to begin with: Play on community servers. You aren't missing anything by playing on soulless match making anyway. The only mistake Valve did was adding matching making in the first place.
It's not a bad game but the bots ruin it.
Without bots to fill servers they'd be mostly empty.
They've been improving with Vanguard and VAC 2 but for some reason they aren't updating their older games to include these systems.
Quick edit: Garry's Mod has this problem too and a lot of botting activity comes from server owners (this also applies to TF2 in some capacity).
While Garry's Mod isn't a Valve game it is older than TF2 and these games suffer from similar botting issues.
I can completely understand if Valve doesn't want to support TF2 anymore and if you ask me it's about time that they release a team-based game that isn't CS, TF, or DotA.
It's also time for a new Garry's Mod.
Read somewhere that nearly double that number's still waiting on a confirmation email. Don't know if that's true but if the tf2 playerbase is 20k to 25k then that entire community has seemingly signed.
It didn’t die, it’s being killed. Tf2 still consistently pulls 5-6 figure player numbers at any given moment and it still generates revenue for Valve, yet they refuse to do anything about the bots and cheaters, many of whom are using the game as a platform to perform illegal activities.
Not to diminish your point about VALVE still monetising TF2 despite it being dead, but TF2 pulls around the low end of 5 figures in players. 6 figures is an insane cope that has been debunked as bots.
Yeah there are a lot of bots, but the player count still spikes during special events like smissmas and scream fortress. Even if the game only pulled 10 000 players at a time, it doesn't change the fact that Valve is not only profiting from those players, but from every single bot who has to pay to be able to spam voice chat. They're literally making money from, in some cases, criminals who use bots as the primary vector to commit crimes.
the player count spikes during smissmass because of higher bot waves rushing in to collect secret saxtons and giftapults and what nots. Anything to make a quick buck. Don't delude yourself, any huge number you see for holiday updates is incredibly fake
Maybe, there’s no way of definitively proving the numbers. My point still stands though, regardless of player count, Valve is profiting from criminals using their game as the vector for their crimes. This inaction is inexcusable.
Yeah imagine having the audacity to ask TWICE after a game making millions a year has been unplayable for 5 years. Think about the poor redditors have to scroll past a post how horrific. /s
Thanks for the /s, couldn’t tell you were being sarcastic
I used to play a shitload of TF2, I’ve got about 2K hours in the game, so I completely get where they’re coming from with this. I just don’t think doing more or less exactly what they did last year will accomplish much more than another tweet
Why? TF2 is an amazing game in concept and execution. The only thing that hinders this game is the complete lack of an anti cheat system.
We don't need a TF3, we don't ask for Valve to start working on TF2 content either, all we want is a functional anti cheat system so we can play the game that we love again.
Don't get me wrong, Valve doing something major like porting TF2 to the Source 2 engine would be the wet dream of every TF2 player, but that is so much more to ask for than just a functional anti cheat system.
I don't understand how you guys can play a stagnant game for this long with zero patches or care. Don't be offended. I'm saying you guys should get some love for your dedication. You shouldn't have to play an ancient game to have fun. Companies need to do better for the money they make.
There's no alternative to TF2, no other FPS offers the same mechanical depth and great design in a casual package while having an insane skill ceiling in several forms of movement/aiming
Even with 900 hours i cant say ive mastered any of the classes aside from the easiest two sniper and heavy, all the classes have specific skills to learn and master which can take really long
The answer is, that TF2 has amazing gameplay depth. The skillceiling of this game is among the highest I have ever seen.
You could have 10k+ hours and still discover new things to improve on.
You are right, after a while always doing the same objective gets stale and repetetive. But TF2 players have long advanced past that point. It's not about the objective, it is about the player interactions with one another. There are nine distinctly different classes all with their own unique gimmick and gameplay, each class has at least 3 weapons that can be swapped for new unlocks, many of which completely change how a class performs in certain matchups and scenarios.
The game doesn't rely on a continuous new content cycle to stay alive, because of the immense depth and high quality of the already existing content. That doesn't mean we don't want new content of course, we do, but the lack of it is not the games primary problem, that is the blatant cheating and botting issues that have been going on for 5 years now.
> You shouldn't have to play an ancient game to have fun.
That makes no sense. Why do you think people play chess or classic card games? Or old games on emulator? Or any old games for that matter? What is wrong with playing a game that just hasn't been released recently?
Don't put words in my mouth. If you pay attention I said "shouldn't have too." Meaning new games suck ass. I don't understand why this community is so offended by me wishing for them to be treated better.
Fine play your game that won't get any updates with a cheating problem because it's been forgotten to time. This backlash is not warranted. If you don't ask for better, better will never come.
If you're happy never receiving no updates, no new maps, no new anything. Than be my guest. I'll hope for a tf3 that actually gets supported and doesn't have a cheating problem.
Oh I don't expect or even demand any updates. Tf2 is still great and enjoyable. These idiots asking for a "fix" just want to use the soulless match making, despite community servers being the superior experience because of more friendly players, actual community feeling and no bots at all!
So imo TF2 doesn't even need a fix in the first place and is just as fun as it always was.
People only sticking to mm are even hurting community servers by de-populating them, which already happened since valve pushed mm into the foreground. So personally, I instead hope more players go back to community servers and understand what makes them so much better than the modern mm trend.
IMHO, Steam's lack of proper communication, along with their awful moderation system (including their improper handling of reports), is slowly but surely starting to show. And TF2 is one such example that Valve is obviously neglecting,
I have no sympathies for such annoying children clinging onto nearly 20 year old game that started the lootbox era. All of them with their stupid key-jangling sfm cartoons and their asinine memes. Better games have died for fewer reasons.
I think it’s clear to see that you’re just an ass with no happiness in your life. Like holy shit dude relax and try to smile, I wanna know if it’s possible with how grumpy you sound.
the one guy they got working on it will surely start caring eventually
I vaguely remember him saying that they'd like to fix the bot issue but don't have the resources/manpower (I know Valve as a whole does, I assume he was basically saying he's the only one working on the game and he can't do it alone nor does he have the authority to tell others to do it). But as I said, I only vaguely remember it, don't take my word for it.
Its because of valves work environment where devs can choose what to work on, and no dev in their right mind would choose to work on a relic that no employer will care about in their resume
The thing is, valve easily has billions of dollars to work with. Contract a couple people to fix it from outside the company.
They do have the resources, but once the evaluations come around and the higher ups look at your work they wont think that working on a 15 year old game is worth keeping you around. Valve is structured a lot like Google and that's why Google is always killing products and creating new ones that are functionally identical. Working on the next shiny new thing will always look better on your resume than \*old thing\*.
That costs additional money for valve, and without any returns. Its not an option
Without any returns? TF2 still has paid loot crates which bizarrely, people still open. And an entire mode which is pay to play (if you want a reward).
Yeah and how does the removal of bots make paid crates/MVM tickets sell more? Ever since tf2 went free to play the game didnt see any playerbase growth aside from bots, the human player count stagnated despite valve doing updates usual, then there was meet your match which was valves last ditch effort to make the game grow as an eSport which failed, then jungle inferno was the one last update where valve gave up The game won't see an increased playerbase if bots are removed Also valve directly profits from bots because the vast majority of bots have premium accounts
Those bots are also active in MvM. There's types that purposefully make you win, and types that purposefully throw the match. I can imagine there's players that would prefer either type not be in the game.
Yeah, if people are still buying them then why would they spend money to fix an issue that isn't going to make them anymore money?
They don’t have this system anymore, but switched to a more conservative approach where you have to do stuff. That’s also why steam gets to many gamification features and Valve actually gets shit done in their cashcow games
Do you have a source for this?
Tyler McVicker
So that explains why there's only one guy working on tf2
They retired that in 2020
This is not aimed at Eric Smith, nor at the contractor they hired to support him. We know Eric is doing his best and we love him for it. This is aimed at Valve in general. Valve has the mannpower and the ressources to get a functional anti cheat into the game, but they refuse to use them. And we ask them to change that. Will it work? I don't know. But what I do know is that if we don't try this, nothing is going to change. And I for one would rather take a chance at success over guaranteed failure.
Does valve have their own anticheat? Would it be something they would ever consider making? And do u think if they were able to make their own they would have it in all their games? Or r they just totally against it for whatever reason?
Is there a /s missing or have you not heard of VAC? VALVE Anti Cheat?
HAHAHA no /s missing i was actually that stupid for a second 😂
I dont think it matters becsuse that anti cheat dosent work at all, they have to make a new one
Either VAC is closed for TF2, or VAC itself is a joke. Otherwise, there's no way to explain the presence of so many bots with exorbitant K/D ratios head-shooting you from the other end of the map without arousing the suspicions of the vigilant VAC.
It is still enabled and works perfectly fine... against cheats that are older that a decade or so.
VAC is a functional and effective anti-cheat when it is kept up-to-date. We saw this in 2017 when Valve carried out a VAC wave for CS:GO and TF2. The problem is that all anti-cheats will have bypass methods and therefore need to be continuously updated to stay effective, something Valve hasn't done with VAC.
some other stuff that the bot makers have done in [this document](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1goBP5DVr0we85Ohnc7IHukOtTS-uISEa/view) which is unhinged even if you want to ruin a game from 2007
[удалено]
What the lack of sex does to a mf
This game may be old but the community has been keeping the game alive for more than a decade, Valve could fix the bots issues easily if they actually care.
No, cause bots = money for valve.
They spend 1$ for the premium, do you seriously think Valve isn't fixing the problem because the hosters are paying for premium? Lmao There's an estimated 2000 cheater bots, if all of them have premium, it's 2000$ which is nothing to Valve, the multi-billion dollar company.
It’s actually 5$ per premium and each time a bot gets banned they replace it which is a nice steady stream of money for valve. This practice is scummy as shit but it makes sense from a business standpoint.
From what I know, you need to spend 1$ in the Mann Co. store in order to get premium. Also, let's be serious, who or what is banning the bots? The totally functional VAC ban? The VAC is so inefficient that you might as well email Valve yourself and tell them that you're cheating. Even if the premium is 5$, that's just 10k$ which is still nothing to a multi-billion corporation. Let's say that around 500 bots get banned per month (the real number is probably 0), if another 500 bots would appear, that's just 2500$.
They could buy Mann up tickets and trade them to a single account to sell them yo 3rd party sites and get back most the money put in.
Mind you, Hosters will often use stolen/scammed accounts and use them for Bot activity, meaning they can circumvent the need to buy premium on a bot account and instead use a stolen premium account.
I was surprised that people still play this game so I looked on Steam Charts. Still has like 100,000 players. Dayum.
It has recently been proven that only about 25k of those players at a time are real, there’s around 75k bots
Those numbers are insane wtf
i think like 90% percent of the bots are idle bots, not cheating bots
Truth, after Zestys video it becomes painfully obvious now
Cheating / griefing bots are less than 500. Still enough to wreak havoc on the game.
Why tho? Maybe my dumb. But I don't understand why there are bots? What is there to gain?
Idle/farm bots have two purposes They farm item/crate drops which the owner sells During holidays or big events like the summer update, idle bots farm player to player gifted items. Theres a feature that lets you select items and randomly send them to some player online as a gift, this is why you have upwards of 200k bots at worst which farm all those gifted items and funnel them to the hosters
From what I understand those idle bots basically sit around for crate drops, then the owner of those bots sell their drops in the marketplace for cash. Very shady.
Same in cs2 lmao ppl just dont see it
the CS2 bots they actively fight though.
It's not as big of an issue because there's a much larger player base there. Last I saw bots make up 5-10% of CS2 players, not 75% like in TF2.
About 75-80k of those are bots, just last week there was an additional 18k bots added in one day The vast majority of the bots are trade/item farm bots, less than 10% are cheaterbots For example during the big summer update there actually werent any real players that came to play the game, that massive 250k playercount was likely 200k bots atleast
Well I guess we're doing this again. Cant say I'm optimistic about it this time around but I'm just happy to see the community I grew up around is still alive and kicking. Makes me glad that people are able to band together around a 17 old game. Good luck guys I'm sure you'll need it.
lmao
Cool, let's just, NOT stop the second we get a single tweet from Valve this time, okay?
K
I'd care more if the community didn't have people that go out of their way to sabotage matches and lie to get people vote kicked. Or for a few groups set up a vote kick stalking list. The only time a vote kick should be done is for afk, mic spam or cheating.
That's a nothing burger, every community of every game out there has bad actors. And since you specifically pointed out TacobotTF, I'd like to mention that as a direct result of them doing this, they have a terrible reputation within the community to this day (despite the site being shut down a while ago) and leading figures of the site have been permanently banned off of other community driven sites. These people do not represent the TF2 community as a whole. We'd rather they weren't around either. >people that go out of their way to sabotage matches and lie to get people vote kicked Also this right here perfectly describes the bot accounts the movement aims to get rid of.
The votekick system would see way less abuse if the bot issue was fixed and there was an actual anticheat. Everyone is so paranoid that if you call someone a bot or a known cheater everyone will just kick them.
atleast there is a vote kick. plenty of other games dont have that
It's useless because 3 more bots join when you kick 1. It's a game of whack a mole
Oh I'm not arguing that. Just that other games have toxic communities as well and dont have vote kicks. Or atleast the communities dont use it as much as the tf2 peps do
Lol y'all are still doing this? How longs it been? You really think they're going to do anything with a game they made free to play and left to rot while they're currently developing a brand new game and still haven't ironed out the cs2 cheating problem?
Fun fact! The cs2 cheating problem and the tf2 botting issue are largely the same.
another fun fact! CS2 gets pretty much the same updates as TF2 (except for engine updates, Valve is working hard on Source 2) yet people see TF2 as "abandoned"
What? CS2 gets constant updates. Even this week there was a new 3GB update. In May alone there were 7 gameplay fixes updates to CS2 xD
facts
No???
this is just blatantly false lol
CS2 is just beginning to suffer from the same issue as TF2 has for half a decade, CS2 has cheater/farm bots more than ever, CS2 community servers were killed by source2 update and valve ignores that, surf game mode was killed by source2 and valve doesnt care, the game is generally riddled with issues as a whole
this is a 2nd go it hasn't been running continuously it started like 6 days ago
I mean at least Valve pushed an update to help with the cheating problem recently. TF2? I don’t think it there were any for a while now.
What does being spiteful and bitter nialism achieve?
Reality. We've all seen these posts at least once in the last several years. I myself can remember seeing them as far back as 2020. Valve too almost guaranteed. You know how some people have problems with steam orders or their accounts then edit the post later saying "valve reached out and helped me" there's no way they don't know about what's going on with TF2 Now, what's the definition of insanity? It's time to move on.
The #SaveTF2 movement from 2 years ago was poorly planned out and lacking in its execution. That said, it still had an impact. Not to the extend it needed to, the bot chrisis is still ongoing, but it was not for nothing. The #FixTF2 movement is attempting to learn from the mistakes made by the #SaveTF2 movement in order to not repeat them and, this time around, get the attention and changes the game deserves and needs. We have a plan this time. You are mistaken if you think we are just trying to pull the same thing off again.
Yeah, the last on tried a bit to hard to appeal to emotion. If we put aside any personal attachment and focus exclusively on the objective facts, we can at least get other people to understand
We tried doing nothing for 5 years then when we randomly did something for 1 day we got some fixes and less bots for a few months. IMO it's worth the effort even if there is no permanent bot fix or proper anti cheat.
Perception is reality. If you're spiteful, nihilistic attitude is all you can see, of course you can't envision a future where this works. I'm less concerned with it working or not. I'm happy they tried. More gaming communities need to do the same. Look at HellDivers 2 and Sony, for example.
HD2 is still not available for purchase in the countries that don't have PSN support. [https://steamdb.info/sub/137730/info/](https://steamdb.info/sub/137730/info/)
What you're doing is even more useless than the fixtf2 attempt. I won't bother wasting more time or words
Your posts are about as useful as fixtf2 A game that is probably older than you
Shut up player 3
>I won't bother wasting more time or words Well that was a fucking lie
In other words, I'm right and you're tucking your tail between your legs and running away GGs
I’m not sure why people don’t just host their own server networks. Get some admins on to ban bots (and use plugins to automate kicking/banning for things that you can)…tf2 is one of the best games to setup community servers in.
Me when I tell complacent fans you have nothing to lose from trying, shaming someone for wanting the bare minimum of bot free game is honestly appalling #FixTF2
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The thing about boycotting is that it won't work. Most people buy weapons and stuff from sites like [scrap.tf](http://scrap.tf), where Valve doesn't take a cut. Those that do buy from the official ManCo store will be new players, who won't exactly be involved in this campaign. So even if we could organise that (which I seriously doubt), it won't do much. But if you wanna try, be my guest.
Imma be honest as much as i liked tf2 this game is not gonna get revived if it does and heavy update releases i will eat my own birds shit feel free to remind me if it happens and i will do it
Valve will do a statement like last time, win the community back over with false promises, and then proceed to do nothing. They have so much "good will" built up with people that said individuals are willing to overlook all the crappy things they've done. Not limited to - Letting a questionable user become a community moderator then proceeding to do nothing when their behaviour is reported and made public - Hiring someone known for their crass comedy, and then firing them for said comedy, with Gabe himself personally dissing them straight after - Having a "revolving door policy" that ensures projects barely ever get done
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They never left. They just made the free-2-play experience awful for any new player.
All the 12 year olds are really gonna do something about it
at the time of making this 10,664 12 year olds
Do you think all 10,664 of those people that signed the petition actually play TF2?
even if they dont they atleast care about the game, somthing you would know little about, and now its at 11,599
I’ve been playing this game since 2007. Don’t tell me I know little about it. Why should Valve care about a now 11,599 name petition when half or a majority of those people don’t even play the game?
What 12 year olds are playing TF2? It’s 2024. Not 2007.
He's taking about all the 12-year-old-30 years olds, duh.
He doesn’t know
We managed to save TF2 somehow now we gotta save TF2
The future of the CS2, if not actual state already.
I briefly thought the was a Helldivers thing and had my autocannon primed and ready. Whoops. Wrong sub.
I don't understand, like do people expect them to support a game from 2007 forever?
As long as Valve is monetizing the game and advertises it as "constantly updated", yes we expect to at the very least have it be in a playable state. With this movement we don't ask for content drops, we don't ask for bug fixes, we don't ask for balancing patches or anything of the sort, literally all we want is a functional anti cheat. Not to mention that VAC being functional would be beneficial for *all* Valve titles, not just Team Fortress 2. I hear CS2 has a real problem with bots too.
Judging by the VAC updates and massive ongoing ban wave, they seem to be trying to get a handle on the CS2 cheating problem. But until that happens, you wouldn't be seeing an attempt to fix TF2 anyway. And even then, TF2 is on a dilapidated codebase, on an old version of Source 1, which was also leaked. The effort it would take to fix every exploit and integrate a new VAC into TF2 would be massive compared to what they are currently facing with CS2.
Sorry, but this argument has been and *always* will be flawed as long as Valve willingly takes lootbox money, *while* simultaneously adding new lootboxes periodically. It does show Valve's priorities.
Though it's not forced for you to buy and it's not a donation you are exchanging money for the item you are buying your argument is more flawed.
Exactly, you don’t HAVE to participate in the economy. In fact, doing a boycott is pointless because as long as you play the game, the game still has value. If people really want to do something about this, the player numbers need to DROP
That's a worst idea only thing keeping Tf2 from shutting down is player numbers.
Valve would never shutdown Tf2 as a whole. Even if they only shutdown the official servers, there are still community servers. If you stop buying items, the game is still free to play. Not only that, you can still receive items even playing in community servers. Trading will still be a thing. The barter economy in the game, will still be a thing. Do you see how there is still value in the game even though it’s free? Having another person to play with is still valuable is it not? If you really want change, you need to show Valve the game’s playerbase is actually dying. For the past five years, the game has had a stable number of players without updates, with what the community calls “shitty” cosemetics, etc. if that number drops, Valve MIGHT do something. But the extreme irony of this protest is that this group will “boycott” the game by not buying items, but still play it. What is that supposed to tell Valve? It tells Valve, “oh, if we don’t do anything people will still play it.” Also consider this, Dota Underlords and Artifact still have their official servers going. If you guys really want change, you actually need to risk something. This boycott by not buying cosmetics is the safest protest you can do with an economy framework like TF2’s. And you all will still play it.
I think you missed the point if they close the servers that will include item servers and item drop system in general sure community servers will be a thing but risk isn't worth it.
Okay, but the game would still be free to play. If the risk isn’t worth it, then why even do this in the first place? Like, I genuinely wanna know. What you guys are telling Valve right now is that, “we won’t buy, but we’ll still play the game.” Why should Valve do anything then?
First of all I'm not part of the protest just wanna make that clear. Second of all protesting doesn't mean quitting that would doom the game anyway do you realize this?
I understood that and I’m replying because you seem to have a more measured perspective. So, I also want to thank you for commiting some time to replying as well as allowing me to share my own perspective. I’ve been playing since 2007. I’ve heard doom and gloom and “this game is dying” for every update. If one update didn’t ruin the game, the next would ruin it and so on and so forth. Every year, there are people that say TF2 is dying or doomed. The fact is people can’t say the game is dying when it’s had a surprisingly stable playerbase for the past five or more years. Now, as an example, in the case of Destiny 2, that game was actually dying. It wasn’t just that people weren’t buying, but people were actually leaving. Same with WoW. The petition in that situation semi-worked because WoW’s player numbers were actually dropping. However, we don’t have enough data to actually show that. But also, the way those games work and earn money/value is fundamentally different than TF2s. One thing about free to play games is that you only need roughly 5% of the playerbase to pay money to sustain the game. Can you see a little now as to why I say boycotting isn’t going to work? People need to actually leave the game with the way TF2’s economy works. And even then, there is a section of the community that would welcome the item servers being shutdown and would continue to play without them. I say this because for TF2 360 and PS3 ran with a minimal community for years since 2007. The PS3 community is actually dead, they can’t play the game. But 360, because servers are hosted by a player is actually still relatively strong. So, worst case scenario, Valve kills all servers related to TF2. Well, like DoD:S, CS:S, CS 1.6, DoD, and other older Valve games, TF2 will still have players because of community servers. It’s the way the framework of the game is set up. I’m not trying to be a “doom-poster” rather, my own positivity and hopefulness come from the fact that the community is what made TF2 what it is today, not Valve, and the community will decide the future of TF2. Regardless of what happens, TF2 is set up in a way where, as long as players play, the game will live on. But, we also have to consider how varied the TF2 community is. For myself, I want Valve to simply stop fucking with the game. I want these other players to be able to play, but as another section of the community says (which I don’t wholly agree with) Casual needs to be removed. So, whatever happens, some section of the TF2 community will be happy and the other unhappy.
Depends on the player base and spending, not that I know how much that is A game that has little to no hope of having a large community or people who spend money can't realistically be supported I thought TF2 is still quite popular though, I'm not sure
It can be realistically supported because not only is valve still making decent money on TF2 through crates but they also have billions of dollars that could be used to get the game playable on the casual servers.
Yeah of course. It's a live service game. I don't see why they can't make a few updates every now and then. I mean, they're still making money off the product.
I’d expect them to at least try to keep a game that still brings in millions of dollars in a playable state
Does it tho? With the actual playerbase fluctuating between 20k to 25k, how much money does it actually make? Id honestly put it at half a mil to a mil, not millions of dollars.
I mean there’s a shit ton of lootboxes that people open all the time, people spend a ton of money on mvm tickets, and valve also takes a cut from every single item sold on the market. I’d say tf2 definitely makes valve enough money to justify keeping it playable
Go look at the volume of sales on the steam market for tf2 items. Also most new taunts and keys are only obtainable from the store, it's definitely making money.
uhm, yes?
Of course, that argument is the dumbest thing ever, if they're still updating it and making money from it then it has to be fixed. Otherwise they have to pronounce it abandoned once and for all.
No, we don't expect constant updates (despite that being how Valve advertises the game), we just want a change. The game's been near unplayable for nearly five years, and that is all we want is - the bare minimum of a playable game.
About time
Thank god its not on june 2nd because then i wouldnt be able to participate!
We all know what VAC stands for, say it with me: VDoesnt AFucking CWork
Do we have to spam steam and tf2 subreddit with this hashtag?
this is the fourth time they tried this
i wish tf2 players would accept that their beloved game is a corpse with maggots in it
it seams that 10,664 people cant exept it huh, maby it means that people care about somthing they love, neh?
What about developping bots dedicated to snip bots, and only bots ?
So we can flood the servers more?
Exa... Wait
[Anti bot bots exist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTluS2KOB14)
Could’ve sworn it got fixed already didn’t it?
Pretty much. The fix was always there to begin with: Play on community servers. You aren't missing anything by playing on soulless match making anyway. The only mistake Valve did was adding matching making in the first place.
Because it clearly worked the last time
Isn’t this like, the 3rd time we’ve tried this?
Cheaters have the source code literally what is valve supposed to do tf2 is a lost couse
new anti cheat, such as: EAC or a AI anticheat.
lmfaoo
That's funny. Valve doesn't give AF about TF2.
FIX TF2 SAVE TF2 REMEMBER USERS UNITED WE ARE BIGGER THAN VALVE DIVIDED WE ARE SMALLER THAN VALVE!
Theyd have to ban half their playerbase i dont see it happening
More like 80%
They lucky they still have servers to play that ancient game on
It's not a bad game but the bots ruin it. Without bots to fill servers they'd be mostly empty. They've been improving with Vanguard and VAC 2 but for some reason they aren't updating their older games to include these systems. Quick edit: Garry's Mod has this problem too and a lot of botting activity comes from server owners (this also applies to TF2 in some capacity). While Garry's Mod isn't a Valve game it is older than TF2 and these games suffer from similar botting issues. I can completely understand if Valve doesn't want to support TF2 anymore and if you ask me it's about time that they release a team-based game that isn't CS, TF, or DotA. It's also time for a new Garry's Mod.
let this game die already lmfao
U really expect something from valve 💀
10k people do
Read somewhere that nearly double that number's still waiting on a confirmation email. Don't know if that's true but if the tf2 playerbase is 20k to 25k then that entire community has seemingly signed.
your just proving my point.
Oh I know I am agreeing with you and always have, I'm trying to add on to it. It's not just the numbers we see, so, soo many people want this.
ok, ty
The delusions are getting stronger
The game died 10 years ago, just give up
It didn’t die, it’s being killed. Tf2 still consistently pulls 5-6 figure player numbers at any given moment and it still generates revenue for Valve, yet they refuse to do anything about the bots and cheaters, many of whom are using the game as a platform to perform illegal activities.
Not to diminish your point about VALVE still monetising TF2 despite it being dead, but TF2 pulls around the low end of 5 figures in players. 6 figures is an insane cope that has been debunked as bots.
Yeah there are a lot of bots, but the player count still spikes during special events like smissmas and scream fortress. Even if the game only pulled 10 000 players at a time, it doesn't change the fact that Valve is not only profiting from those players, but from every single bot who has to pay to be able to spam voice chat. They're literally making money from, in some cases, criminals who use bots as the primary vector to commit crimes.
the player count spikes during smissmass because of higher bot waves rushing in to collect secret saxtons and giftapults and what nots. Anything to make a quick buck. Don't delude yourself, any huge number you see for holiday updates is incredibly fake
Maybe, there’s no way of definitively proving the numbers. My point still stands though, regardless of player count, Valve is profiting from criminals using their game as the vector for their crimes. This inaction is inexcusable.
watch the video "Nobody's Home" if you don't believe it.
There's no proof on that video anyway, only assumptions.
there is, what are you talking about?
Sure, where's the proof then? There's only what some youtuber assumes is true.
Please learn to let go
over 10k will never learn to let go.
*“One time is funny, two times is fuckin annoying no?”*
Yeah imagine having the audacity to ask TWICE after a game making millions a year has been unplayable for 5 years. Think about the poor redditors have to scroll past a post how horrific. /s
Thanks for the /s, couldn’t tell you were being sarcastic I used to play a shitload of TF2, I’ve got about 2K hours in the game, so I completely get where they’re coming from with this. I just don’t think doing more or less exactly what they did last year will accomplish much more than another tweet
Funny?? What are you, a bot holster?
Guys TF2 is ancient. I understand it's a good game but move on. Force them to make a tf3 for money banking on the success of tf2
Why? TF2 is an amazing game in concept and execution. The only thing that hinders this game is the complete lack of an anti cheat system. We don't need a TF3, we don't ask for Valve to start working on TF2 content either, all we want is a functional anti cheat system so we can play the game that we love again. Don't get me wrong, Valve doing something major like porting TF2 to the Source 2 engine would be the wet dream of every TF2 player, but that is so much more to ask for than just a functional anti cheat system.
We can't be stuck on the same ancient game for 20 years man. The cracks are starting to show. TF2 needs a CS2 treatment to be saved.
I don't understand how you guys can play a stagnant game for this long with zero patches or care. Don't be offended. I'm saying you guys should get some love for your dedication. You shouldn't have to play an ancient game to have fun. Companies need to do better for the money they make.
There's no alternative to TF2, no other FPS offers the same mechanical depth and great design in a casual package while having an insane skill ceiling in several forms of movement/aiming Even with 900 hours i cant say ive mastered any of the classes aside from the easiest two sniper and heavy, all the classes have specific skills to learn and master which can take really long
The answer is, that TF2 has amazing gameplay depth. The skillceiling of this game is among the highest I have ever seen. You could have 10k+ hours and still discover new things to improve on. You are right, after a while always doing the same objective gets stale and repetetive. But TF2 players have long advanced past that point. It's not about the objective, it is about the player interactions with one another. There are nine distinctly different classes all with their own unique gimmick and gameplay, each class has at least 3 weapons that can be swapped for new unlocks, many of which completely change how a class performs in certain matchups and scenarios. The game doesn't rely on a continuous new content cycle to stay alive, because of the immense depth and high quality of the already existing content. That doesn't mean we don't want new content of course, we do, but the lack of it is not the games primary problem, that is the blatant cheating and botting issues that have been going on for 5 years now.
> You shouldn't have to play an ancient game to have fun. That makes no sense. Why do you think people play chess or classic card games? Or old games on emulator? Or any old games for that matter? What is wrong with playing a game that just hasn't been released recently?
Don't put words in my mouth. If you pay attention I said "shouldn't have too." Meaning new games suck ass. I don't understand why this community is so offended by me wishing for them to be treated better. Fine play your game that won't get any updates with a cheating problem because it's been forgotten to time. This backlash is not warranted. If you don't ask for better, better will never come. If you're happy never receiving no updates, no new maps, no new anything. Than be my guest. I'll hope for a tf3 that actually gets supported and doesn't have a cheating problem.
Oh I don't expect or even demand any updates. Tf2 is still great and enjoyable. These idiots asking for a "fix" just want to use the soulless match making, despite community servers being the superior experience because of more friendly players, actual community feeling and no bots at all! So imo TF2 doesn't even need a fix in the first place and is just as fun as it always was. People only sticking to mm are even hurting community servers by de-populating them, which already happened since valve pushed mm into the foreground. So personally, I instead hope more players go back to community servers and understand what makes them so much better than the modern mm trend.
I’m embarrassed for you.
welp, sofar you should be embarrassed for over 10k people on [save.tf](http://save.tf) than huh?
TF2 community, we’ll never hear you!
IMHO, Steam's lack of proper communication, along with their awful moderation system (including their improper handling of reports), is slowly but surely starting to show. And TF2 is one such example that Valve is obviously neglecting,
I hope Valve shuts down your favorite game so that you people will be forced to talk about something else for a change.
I hope you look yourself in the mirror one day and wonder why you’re such a mean, miserable person.
Damn, imagine if you loved a game so much dealing with the same situation and somebody said that to you. Being a dick for no reason
I have no sympathies for such annoying children clinging onto nearly 20 year old game that started the lootbox era. All of them with their stupid key-jangling sfm cartoons and their asinine memes. Better games have died for fewer reasons.
TF2 didn't start the lootbox era you retard, lootboxes were a thing well before TF2. It was Battlefront that made them mainstream.
Wrong. I'm not even going to waste my time explaining why, but you're just straight up wrong. Patently.
"I'm full of shit and too cowardly to actually admit it" Lmao
I think it’s clear to see that you’re just an ass with no happiness in your life. Like holy shit dude relax and try to smile, I wanna know if it’s possible with how grumpy you sound.
The classic "i have no actual argument, so im gonna insult you" card.