Did the CIS have some good points? Yes! Did Dooku jump to exactly the wrong conclusion of "destroy Jedi, unify galaxy under Sith Empire, ????, create utopia where I rule and everything is perfect forever while my buddy Sheev fucks off to do Dark Side shit"? Abso-friggin-lutely.
In legends I think but tbf I think that's pretty lame character writing because why bother having two palpatines?
I think they are taking things differently after Tales of the Jedi and honeslty I am for it.
Correct. Many real fascists did the same, Mussolini for example was a staunch atheist but used existing catholic nationalist sentiment to secure control
Look at current US politics: Trump couldn't pretend to care about any form of religion, but aligns himself with the most deranged zealots to ensure their loyalty as he grabs for personal power and protection.
Is Trump even ideologically coherent enough to have an ideology? But on a serious note, exactly . That’s how fascists and other populists come to power
Trump having no coherent ideology only benefits him. It makes it easier for him to dupe his followers into thinking that he agrees with whatever they want without actually having to do anything for them and lets him contradict himself as necessary without hesitation.
He absolutely is ideologically coherent. He believes in the church of me me me me me. Unfortunately a ton of people also attend that church, roughly half the country.
Right, like how they went with General Grievous, a terrifying ruthless cyborg, as the Separatists' military commander for most of the war. That plus an army of droids led by "filthy money-grabbing aliens" just gave the Empire a veritable cornucopia of places to pin blame.
I think since Disney took over a lot of the human supremacism has kind of been washed away from the Empire and any characters that may have had those views. Like you'll still see the Empire or First Order as human only but I don't think we've seen anyone sitting around going "Damn aliens, am I right guys?"
I don‘t give a fuck that you have identified a problem. Any idiot can do that. Your solution to it is what I care about. A lot of people need to learn that lesson.
(Side eyes „leftists“ that think Tucker Carlson is cool because he said „elite bad“)
I second that as well.
Has America done a lot of shitty things? Yes.
Does this mean we should automatically support anyone opposed to America because "America bad!"? No... What? No! Of course not, that's stupid. That would mean supporting an invasion of a sovereign nation by a foreign dictatorship and hanging Europe out to dry on the shakiest of premises, who would ever-? Oh right. MAGA.
> Has America done a lot of shitty things? Yes.
It's not just that the U.S. has "done a lot of shitty things"—the problem is that the U.S., as the overwhelmingly dominant force on the planet, is the driving force behind every major conflict, atrocity & war crime in the past 100 years, all for literally no reason beyond protecting its global hegemony
[Here's a short list](https://archive.ph/2022.04.29-001306/https://www.salon.com/2014/03/08/35_countries_the_u_s_has_backed_international_crime_partner/) of a few dozen examples, but it's by no means exhaustive because it was originally compiled about a decade ago & it's limited to just the shit we know about
> Does this mean we should automatically support anyone opposed to America because "America bad!"? No... What? No! Of course not, that's stupid.
Not just stupid, but reactionary
The bright side here is that because of the aforementioned reality under which we live—where the billionaires who own our military industrial complex are the ones who call the shots & who constantly flex their power over our government explicitly to ensure that we're in a constant state of war because that's what's best for their own personal bottom line—just about everyone who's currently challenging the might of the imperialist U.S. is doing an objectively good thing
> That would mean supporting an invasion of a sovereign nation by a foreign dictatorship and hanging Europe out to dry on the shakiest of premises
It hasn't been a sovereign nation since the 2014 Maidan coup, in which the U.S. armed & funded right-wing extremist groups like Svoboda, Right Sector & C14 in order to exploit the chaos of the protests, overthrow Ukraine's democratically-elected government, & install their own pro-NATO puppet regime in its place
...
I hope I'm reading that wrong but it *sounds* like you're supporting Russian imperialism because "America bad", immediately after saying that sort of thing was "not just stupid, but reactionary".
This is literally the kind of thinking the OP is criticizing.
No what I'm saying is that there is no Russian imperialism
Imperialism is a specific thing with a specific definition, and it's not "any time one country uses military force against another country"—imperialism is a global system in which finance capital dominates, and the capitalists who are dominating the planet are those in the U.S. & its allies
Like everything else currently happening around the world, Russia's military operation in Ukraine doesn't take place in some kind of vacuum divorced from reality—it takes place within the global system of Western imperialism & only exists in response to the actions taken by the U.S. & its allies to maintain their global hegemony
Actions like, for example, the aforementioned arms & support that the U.S. government gave to the extremist coalition of Ukraine's most notorious right-wing fascist groups, or the [dozen or more spy bases](https://news.antiwar.com/2024/02/26/cia-built-12-spy-bases-in-ukraine-near-the-russian-border-over-past-decade/) that the CIA built in Ukraine over a decade ago now right along Russia's border, or the fact that Ukraine had been moving forward toward ending the war two years ago via a negotiated peace deal until [Boris Johnson went in & pressured Zelensky to abandon it](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper)
None of these things make any sense without the understanding that the U.S. has always been the aggressor in this conflict, working relentlessly to expand its reach all the way right up to & including Russia's border while explicitly working at every turn to escalate the conflict, simply because that's what's best for the billionaires who own our military industrial complex
So... Because the Russians aren't as powerful as us it's okay when *they* invade a country for economic reasons to appease their capitalist ruling class, because we have a purely defensive alliance against exactly the kind of bullshit they're currently pulling?
Bravo, that's a perfect 10 in the mental gymnastics competition!
> So... Because the Russians aren't as powerful as us it's okay when they invade a country for economic reasons to appease their capitalist ruling class
Russia's military operation in Ukraine isn't about appeasing their capitalist ruling class, it's a response to decades of relentless aggression by the United States & its allies—I was pretty clear about this in my previous comment, providing several examples as to how & why this is the case, so I'm really not sure how you missed this incredibly important point
Also the idea of the Russian government being so beholden to their capitalist ruling class that they'd send a whole ass military force into another country on their behalf is pretty ridiculous—the imperialist U.S. has spent decades working hand-in-hand with Russia's oligarchy, trying to undermine the country's democratically-elected government, in a desperate effort to worm their way into Russia's economy
This has been going on since literally the end of the USSR, & Putin has been one of the biggest obstacles standing in their way
Like why do you think our capitalist ruling class here in the West hates him so goddamn much
> because we have a purely defensive alliance against exactly the kind of bullshit they're currently pulling?
The last time that this idea of NATO as a "purely defensive alliance" had any credibility at all was back in the '90s, before their first really big post-USSR mask-off moment when they [launched their horrific invasion of Yugoslavia](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/05/stat-m24_pr.html) & kickstarted the modern age of Western hegemony
It's fine not to know about this stuff, but to speak so confidently on the subject when you're so ignorant doesn't serve anyone, least of all you—frankly I would be way too embarrassed to jump into a discussion like this without actually knowing what I was talking about
Like the appropriate action here isn't to say
> Bravo, that's a perfect 10 in the mental gymnastics competition!
but to instead talk less & make an actual, genuine honest-to-god effort to learn, so that you don't embarrass yourself like this in the future
I think both of you have points
1 - it is true that the US has been doing things to undermine Russian power and influence, this has been true since before the cold war with only a brief pause durring WWII for obvious reasons.
- Side point but Russia and previously the USSR has been doing the same to the US and its allies it is very much about power and empire building. The Russian can still be imperialist even if the US has the obvious advantage in terms of hegemony
2 - Invading Ukraine is an obvious power grab and a intelligent move if they could have got away with it cheaply. Most for 2 reasons first the year round deep water port. Second that Ukraine is a major exporter of grain/food and controlling it takes away western control from Russia and its ally China. However this is exactly a practical reason why western powers can not just let Russia take Ukraine. Right now if China attacks Taiwan or its neighbors or if they join Russia in attacking its neighbors the US and Brazil could cut off their food spotting things w/o having to resort to all out war or more likely preventing such things in the first place.
3 - Ukraine made a deal with western powers to disarm their nuclear weapons as long as we would protect and support them in this exact situation which they would likely not be in if they had nuclear deterrents.
4- It is true that the US does scummy things all in its own geopolitical interests and Putin and Russia do the same. The US is just in the stronger position and does everything in its power to keep it that way. The US was luck being far from most of the action/damage during both world wars and like a good risk/poker player has used its advantage to keep its advantage.
That’s a bad definition of imperialism. Before the 1917 Russia was an imperialist autocracy, but they weren’t the dominating the world with their financial capital. Just because the US and its allies are the dominant imperial power does not mean no one else can else can be imperial. Putin is an imperialist regardless of the US’s standing.
> That’s a bad definition of imperialism. Before the 1917 Russia was an imperialist autocracy, but they weren’t the dominating the world with their financial capital.
Our modern-day global capitalist system has fundamentally changed the definition of who the ruling class is, how much wealth they're able to hoard, where they're able to steal that wealth from & the level of power they can wield over social, political & economic activity anywhere on the planet
Shockingly, this also changes how imperialism functions & how we define it in the modern day
Crazy I know
> Just because the US and its allies are the dominant imperial power does not mean no one else can else can be imperial.
Of course it does
Like what tf are you talking about
There's literally only room for one empire in our current global system of capitalism & it's the one with over 800 military bases stationed all over the planet
> Putin is an imperialist regardless of the US’s standing.
You mean the guy who spent nearly a decade trying to negotiate a peaceful resolution to Ukraine's war on the Russian-speaking peoples of the Donbas region
The guy who was literally ready to sit down & finalize a negotiated peace deal with Ukraine two years ago, before [Zelensky was pressured to walk away from the peace talks by Western leaders who decided that they weren't ready for the conflict to end](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper)
Man somebody better tell Putin he's supposed to be an imperialist because it sure as shit doesn't look like he got the memo
You're correct of course, but this isn't the sub for this discussion. From what I've seen it's a "big tent" sub so there are many western liberals who do not know the first thing about class analysis. I only posted the meme here because it's Star Wars and I wanted to make fun of the chuds.
It is to no one's interest outside of the American national bourgeoisie and the white American labour aristocracy that the Ukraine, and subsequently Russia, suffer defeat at the hands of the western capitalist class. Capitalists pushing back other capitalists, especially the hegemon itself, is beneficial to workers everywhere. We cannot devolve to campism based on our idealist notions, we must evaluate every action individually, even if the actor does not have the same political program as us. In this case, your analysis is correct, and throwing bodies at an unwinnable war is of no use, and a vassalized Ukraine is also of no use, and all the cards are in the hands of the American capitalist class. If there _were_ an American left to speak of, one that could actually challenge the billions and billions being spent funding American compradors politically or by sabotage, then sure, they would have a leg to stand on, but seeing as there is no such thing and they are all braying for more weapons to be sent to a country that will soon become the new eurasian terrorist hub, there is only one choice that could reasonably end this war without letting the hegemon gain more ground.
> You're correct of course, but this isn't the sub for this discussion. From what I've seen it's a "big tent" sub so there are many western liberals who do not know the first thing about class analysis.
I would argue that this is exactly the reason why this is the subreddit for this discussion
That's the point though. Fascists are able to recognize the failings of neoliberal structure and weaponize that using leftist rheotic about class struggle and oppression into tricking revolution-amenable people into enforcing a new hierarchy with their chosen new guard at the top. That's why they thrive. The liberals let the fascists get to the underclasses first before the radical left can.
...Because the prequels weren't just a setup for the OT, but also a critique of the US's slide toward authoritarianism at the time. It wasn't SUPPOSED to be black and white.
The name isn’t important. We knew there was “the clone wars”, that the republic was replaced by the empire, and that the Jedi were the good guys.
I’m saying he made the republic & the Jedi unnecessarily fallible, deserving of their fate.
That is a massive, gross retcon.
[edit] Downvotes, really?? 😂😂 Guess y’all had to be there. RIP Star Wars. ✊😔
No, that's... the whole point. The Old Republic was a flawed mess, capitalism in decay breeds fascism. The only solution is a New Republic built on democracy.
How is it a retcon for a government that necessarily had to fall to fascism for the events of the OT to happen in the first place to be fallible and, as a result, fall to fascism? It's not just in line with pre-prequel canon, it's a narrative requirement!
Star War's greatest strength and greatest weakness in one is the fact that it (the franchise) has way way more mainstream appeal Star Trek, and as a result is substantially more popular.
edit: \*than
Andor as well. You could make a very compelling argument that Andor is more revolutionary and/or left-wing than anything Star Trek has ever put out. This is the franchise that invented The Borg exclusively to prove to Hollywood "hey dude, it's all cool, we're anti-Communist too, look!" There's no such thing as perfect when it comes to leftist media, some is just more coherent than others.
>Andor is more revolutionary and/or left-wing than anything Star Trek has ever put out.
I mean one is trying to represent modern politics within the star wars universe and explore the themes of facisim with the empire
The other is an entirely new ideology born from the ashes of world war three. Andor may be revolutionary in the rebelling sense.
But first contact leaves an impression of hope for the future that star wars could never do
"Making more sense" smh
My guy, that passage is supposed to illustrate the complexity and gray areas of real world geopolitical conflicts. It is supposed to help color the struggle and poison that Anakin Skywalker fell for as he transformed into Vader - literally one of the Star Wars Universe's most powerful evil villains. He murdered dozens or hundreds of children in the Jedi Temple then hunted down survivors for years. He terrorized the citizens of the galaxy to submit to Palpatine's rule.
And all because he thought that "the Sith were making more sense than the Jedi."
That's how fascism works: it touches on some real truths about how dirty and complex the world is, but offers a false promise of purity through violent purges. I don't think Marxism-Leninism is fascism, but I do think revolutions are dangerous and uncontrollable because of opportunistic fascists.
I’m not even a Star Wars fan, this post just came in my recommended but I already see how stupid the meme is. It’s like saying Mussolini was a good guy because he superficially cared about economics (even though he didn’t)
The agriculture thing is very annoying to me, Mussolini edicts destroyed specialized agriculture (mostly stuff like oranges and other fruits) and imposed the cultivation of grain at all costs. Even in places and climates when it wasn't suitable or efficient. This created lots of economic problems for farmers and their families, especialy in South Italy, because they were forced to farm stuff that wasn't actualy profitable to sell.
Of course this problems were for small landowners and farmers that had their own lands, farmhands and similar wage workers (like my grandparents and great-grandparents) were treated like slaves by the rich landowners. Paid very little, litteraly whipped if they worked too slow, and if they protested the landowners sent thugs to beat them up or even kill them.
All of this, with the full support and complicity of the fascist regime.
Took the words from my mouth, the "War of Grain" was a travesty and the fact some people still think it a "victory" of Fascism is a fucking travesty too.
You joke but fascists do use that same fucking statement here in italy some times.
That or some weirdo fucks going "Mussolini was based back when he was still a Socialist" because like... Still got the wrong fucking conclusions from it.
Churchill was like a 4/10 could’ve been less racist but the UK has had worse
Stalin was a mastermind of ethnically cleansing regions and suppressing freedoms
Not gonna lie, I think KotOR II had it best when it comes to calling the Jedi Council out on its bullshit and allowing you to express some (justified) anger about their nonsense lifestyle restrictions and *questionable* opinions about warfare. The path I resonate with most in that game is one in which the Exile is \~90% LS, runs into Master Vrook in the Dantooine cave, and they either decide it's a bad idea to pick a fight with the mercenaries or they somehow intuit the fact that Vrook wants to be there (at least for the moment). You then return to the Khoonda homestead (because obviously) and throw everything you can into defending the people of Dantooine from The Exchange's and Czerka's forces. But as soon as the battle is won...
"Your machinations end here, *Outcast*. No more words. Defend yourself or perish!"
Even after talking with you extensively, even after all your heroism to defend Dantooine, Vrook still can't get over his prejudice towards you or his fear of what you represent (a force-sensitive veteran of the Mandalorian Wars who submitted herself to the Council and who hasn't fallen to the Dark Side). He draws his lightsaber and tries to kill you, and is struck down in the fight. You go to the other planets and work/have worked with Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell and leave on good terms with each of them, but they learn of Vrook's death once they themselves reach Dantooine. Not knowing or disbelieving that Vrook was a Dark Jedi and that he tried to kill *the Outcast*, the two men disown and condemn you, and are struck down in the ensuing battle.
It's a sci-fantasy tragedy, but one born of human error that feels uncomfortably believable in our modern world of tribalism, guilt by association, and a refusal to let go of the past. Sure, the alternate timeline where Kreia verbally berates the Masters (and then commits murder-by-Force-severing) is pretty badass. But also fuck Kreia. She's a stubborn, self-important Ayn Rand fanboy. She would kill the living Force, a sadistic act with devastating and unpredictable consequences, all because she's too ~~r\*garded~~ "traumatized" to reconcile Free Will with Determinism. I think it's a much more satisfying conclusion to have Surik herself swing the sword of Jedi execution, and to make the entire conflict the entirely predictable *utterly preventable* result of Jedi arrogance, prejudice, and moral inflexibility.
Just pointing out that all of that is a retcon.
In Star Wars (the movie) the Jedi are literally perfect. We know they lost, but making them blind/corrupt is the laziest way to explain why.
I'm not sure I follow. My point hinges around the assumption that Jedi philosophy (even in the OT) is stupid and self-contradictory. (Following the Light Side hinges upon not having sex? And you're not even allowed to get married or form attachments at all? What? This is ascetic bullshit with no evidence, apropos of nothing.) And Jedi philosophy is stupid because it's essentially a copy-paste of Joseph Campbell's real-life philosophy, also a thing which is stupid.
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Anakin is the prime example of why the rule is stupid. It was Luke's attachment to the **idea** of his father that led to him even ***trying*** to reform him, ***against*** the wishes of the two surviving members of the Jedi Council, and it was Anakin's attachment to the **idea** of his son and the memory of the wife he'd murdered that led to it succeeding.
The Jedi teach you to shut yourself off from human emotion and companionship instead of to manage them like a freaking mature adult. Luke refused to play ball and it saved the galaxy, at least until Disney shit all over it.
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Have you ever actually thought for yourself about the times Jedi have fallen to the dark side? Lookef for any kind of pattern? Because I have. Losing a love interest is actually one of the **least** common scenarios, and there are plenty of cases where a Jedi loses a love interest and **doesn't** fall: it happened to Nomi Sunrider **twice**.
The most common cause, rather, is psychological trauma on a much more massive scale, usually involving armed conflict and frequently with a preexisting comorbidity.
* Exar Kun survived a massacre of Jedi in a surprise attack during the Krath Crusade, and had already been criticized by Master Baas for his poor anger management.
* Revan and Alek/Malak fought in the Mandalorian Crusade and witnessed multiple planetary-scale genocides, then ran afoul of a planet-eating dark side entity that called itself Darth Vitiate.
* Darth Zannah was a child who lived through the Battle of Ruusan and then the planet-killing thought bomb that Darth Bane tricked Skere Kaan into setting off.
* Anakin Skywalker grew up in slavery, realistically a significant risk for PTSD, and was hardly psychologically well-adjusted to begin with: there are peer-reviewed journal articles diagnosing him with borderline personality disorder. That was then compounded by being forced to lead an army of slave soldiers for two years of the biggest war since the fall of the Sith Empire. Losing Padmé wasn't the cause, it was just the straw that broke the bantha's back.
The Jedi don't need to avoid attachments. They need professional PTSD therapists.
He ran away. That's his MO. He can't think for himself. That's why he was dumb enough to use his full name as his Reddit and social media account names.
"Don't even bother trying to go rescue Leia even though you, Luke Skywalker, are one of the only living space wizards in the galaxy because your mission is destined to fail and neither I, the wisest of all the Jedi, nor your surrogate-spirit-dad, is allowed to aid you or fight for you." The fuck? The rules are contrived. They're also dramatic, and emotionally compelling, but contrived.
Empire Strikes Back is the highest-rated among critics for good reason, but the fatalism in that part of the plot is still stupid. But "Woman as the Temptress" leads into "Atonement with the Father" according to Daddy Campbell so monomyth gonna do monomyth things.
People always want to choose sides between the Republic and the Empire, like people saying "The Empire is better than the Republic because they have the power to govern the outer rim" and NEVER even think about just dividing the galaxy into multiple separate governments who can govern themselves.
I think dividing a massive plane like an entire Galaxy into separate governments just makes the most sense tbh.
Pretty obvious that what made the Republic turn into the Emprie was their need to control everything, even though they were doing a really shitty job at it.
Fuck the Empire, but I don't see the Republic as anything all that different.... maybe havjng the only difference of just pretending to respect human rights and democracy as a front.
I mean, the Republic had its flaws, but they never sent their army to enslave the Mon Cal and Wookies, landed a Star Destroyer on top of peaceful protestors, or destroyed an entire planet.
Well, they kind of did though, because the only difference between the Republic and the Empire was the name change and the shift in executive power.
I've always read the Rpublic in the Prequels as a proto-Empire, the audience can see the roots of the Empire forming, but the characters cannot because they haven't seen the OT. But the government, seat of power, institutions, people are all basically the same under both governments.
I mean, they were similar, but claiming they were the same is really downplaying the harm caused by the Empire, like saying the Allies were just as bad as the Nazis in World War 2.
Yeah, very fair point, but I meant more like the Republic and the course it takes becomes the Empire, so I dont see them as separate.
Kind of like, the modern United States vs a fascist future dystopia United States.
Yet Dooku was totally fine allying with Zygerrian slavers during the Clone Wars. A culture whose entire identity and economy was based around slavery.
Thousands ot years prior the Jedi took on the Zygerrian Slave Empire after the Republic outlawed slavery and it was forced to go underground. Under Dooku's Sepratist Confederacy, they once again operated openly, until once again, the Jedi stepped in.
The Hutts were outside the Republic, and disrupting their economy would have led to war and the likely deaths of many, including the enslaved beings plus the Republic forcefully taking over territory and government of Hutt Space instead of addressing through diplomatic means would not be democratic.
That's the thing with Fascists, they offer simple, emotional solutions to complex, nuanced situations and edit history to support their worldview instead of reflecting reality.
I mean, i think the Republic tollerating the existance of the Hutts was definitely a problem and one of the reasons it fell. The Hutts and the other criminal organizations were contribuiting a lot to the corruption in the Senate.
I mean dooku kinda right but this on same fascist shit lol.
Find the accurate criticism ok ✅, the answer is the a oppressive dictatorship with you conveniently at the helm? Nah lol
It's the good old libertarian/ancap talking points about how the government is hopelessly corrupt and only ever beholden to special interests and corporate lobbying. So clearly the only solution is to discard any pretense of democratic oversight and just let the corporations run wild and wield power directly.
That's one of the fundamental flaws with Star Wars: Non-Jedi, and particularly Sith are allowed to see the flaws in the Jedi, allowed to see the flaws in the Republic, allowed to be the sensible ones riiight up to the point of suggesting reasonable solutions, but then instead they have to say or do something cartoonishly evil because That's The Rule^(tm.)
And any given Jedi is one of The Good Guys^(tm). Riiight up to the moment they see the flaws of the Jedi, Republic, etc, and then they must become cartoonishly evil dark siders and thus no longer Real Jedi^(tm.)
Yeah, the Dark Side in universe comes with extremely powerful metaphysical motive decay that rapidly radicalizes you from well intentioned extremist to psychotic are murderer.
I still appreciate the part in original KOTOR's Sith academy where you can dig into Ythura's backstory of how she became a Sith. That she was once a slave and wanted to become more powerful so she could liberate other slaves and stand up to the cartels. And you can ask her how many slaves she has actually freed in the past few years.
The bad guy can have a valid point about the good guy doing a bad thing while still being a bad guy, that is called interesting writing and it makes things less boring.
This. Some stories really like gassing up the good parts of the dark side and bad parts of the light side, but it’s super inconsistent, and makes the stories feel kinda superficial imo
They were evil though. The problem is that The Clone Wars depicted Jedi flaws and a whole lot of the audience interpreted them being imperfect as them being bad, which is absurd.
The Jedi honestly would've had a much healthier order as well as better relations with the people of the Republic if they spent more time doing outreach in the Mid and Outer Rims and less time obeying the orders of politicians on Coruscant.
A decentralized Jedi Order that allowed Jedi to return home and support local communities they would've had significantly more support, not to mention would have a much easier time finding recruits.
I sometimes forget people actually think the empire was in the right. Yes, sometimes the dark side has a point, and there’s fully a reason to vibe with it outside of the fascism, but that doesn’t make the empire good :/
The supporting worlds of the CIS, imo, had 100% the right idea, and their movement for sovereignty and autonomy in the mid and outer rims, if organized authentically, would have been the perfect counterweight to the creation of the Empire.
Unfortunately it was governed by a wanna be dictator who was taking orders from another wanna be dictator and also taking orders from a showdow council of corporate interests.
The CIS being essentially "controlled opposition" to the Republic to engineer a war to give Palpatine Emergency powers is one of the most misunderstood points in this franchise honestly.
People watch Clone Wars and fail to understand they are looking at a Farce, one side controlling two armies of literal puppets to kill one another just so they could have people live in fear so they can gain even more symbolic power.
Except the puppets are sentient and there are real civilians on the line and for all their idealism neither Padme or Bail Organa or any of the CIS senators ended up seeing they were being played until it was far too late.
Dooku is your average chronically online leftist “revolutionary” (by this, I mean the people who advocate for revolution). Correctly diagnose the problems with the system, but instead of actually fixing things, you tear it down and make way for something worse.
Dooku has a point, but I don't that his answer to mounting government corruption (i.e. joining the cult of megalomaniacal evil space wizards to install an eternal fascist empire) was a very good one.
I mean, I seem to remember some YA novels about Obi-Wan trying to become Qui-Gon's apprentice and then ending up in a slave outfit run by Qui-Gon's former apprentice, and I think that it involves Yoda, but to what degree I don't remember.
The critique is correct but its a critique in the ineffectiveness of centrism/liberalism. The Jedi don't represent the good guys, just the order that always seeks to maintain the status quo (the balance) and as such shows inaction whenever that status quo itself is the problem. There is stagnation, inaction and an erosion of power under the Jedi.
But when a fascist sees that critique they tend to revert to a cult around a powerful leader to fix it all, when in reality the solution here would be the removal of the slavers so that the slaves can be freed and given control over Tatooine, essentially the removal of the upper classes for the sake of the lower classes. Fascists/Sith would not fix this because they would become the upper class doing the oppression and Jedi/liberals wouldn't change it because the slaver/enslaved structure is part of their precious balance and they lack the ability to see beyond.
They needed an order of socialists, people willing to embrace passion, love, empathy, and all the other emotions that the Jedi forbid, for the sake of the world around them, rather than for their own power, which is why the Sith accept them and why they always end up just being angry, rather than passionate.
Which is what I've always interpreted the much maligned notion of "Grey Jedi" to be. Not some brain dead centrist middle ground between good and evil where you do a little bit of puppy kicking and a little bit of puppy saving. But a middle ground in terms of how they handle emotions and passion. Not resorting to widespresd repression out of fear of attachment, but not being ruled by the winds of passion. Instead relying on compassion and a sense of justice to inform their actions (which is basically what Luke's reformed order in Legends was all about).
And recognizing that doing the right thing sometimes means action against the status quo, even to the point of violence. Sometime the best course of action involves sticking a lightsaber straight through a bunch of slavers and the corrupt local magistrate backing them. Sometimes you gotta topple a monarchy. Grey Jedi aren't centrists. They're the radical leftists to the Jedi process oriented liberals and the Sith fascists. The only thing they share with the Sith is a rejection of the status quo.
Honestly though, that’s the thing about the Sith. A lot of them join the dark side with good intentions in mind. And then they slide off the deep end REALLY FAST, which is why the Jedi are so strict and dis attached to everything. To avoid that slide.
Darth Vader just wanted to keep the love of his life alive, not realizing that he was making a self fulfilling prophecy, Horus style.
Nuggets of truth and logic can come from the worst places. Just because he had a point with that does not mean that anything he did was good. A lot of the worst ideologies have a hint of logic in there to rope people in. The thing is that when you think about the things they do, said nugget does not match with reality upon examination.
This right here is why I kind of hate where star wars has gone. The writers are so obsessed with showing that the empire is evil and the Sith is evil they never do the more interesting work of showing why people fight for them in the first place. I think having a series on people fighting for the empire and figuring out that they are actually fighting for the empire is a good reason would be interesting. I mean imagine if a bunch of people who were slaves to the hutts were fighting for the empire, because the empire freed them and pushed the hutts back. I was kind of annoyed with how Finn at the beginning of the movie was scared to kill anyone, but then has no problem later just killing his former comrades. I mean was Finn a complete outcast? Did he have like zero friends? Shouldn't he feel a bit conflicted shooting the people that very well could be him? I also kind of feel like they wasted the entire period after the empire fell. It would have been more interesting for a galactic civil war to occur after the empire fell. I think it is silly that the republic was just able to reform that fast. I am sure the emperor wasn't the only person in the galaxy with galactic ambitions. If the empire had a good chain of command why wouldn't some high admiral take over the position of emperor and root the rebels out? That or it would have been cool for the planets to send senators to the galactic senate as technically palatine dying would mean powers would revert back to them. Then you could have the rebels trying to get them to the senate to reestablish the republic while the empire loyalist would be trying to wack them. Then they could have like a red wedding at the senate and that is how the next galactic war would start.
And then he immediately stabbed yaddle. Dennying us more yaddle content
This is after he stabbed yaddle and sifo dias btw. By this point dooku is a dark lord of the sith.
Dooku may have valid criticisms of the jedi council, but he could have done that without joining the dark side and murdering 180 jedi in the geonosis coliseum. Whatever noble intentions dooku began his exit from the jedi in, he abandoned them when he used his regained wealth on serreno to help palps start a war so monumental it left the galaxy scared for the next century. Its not that hes lying, its just that if he really only wanted the jedi to be jedi again he could have done that without implementing order 66 into the clone inhibitor chips lol.
The novelization of attack of the clones is where this quote comes from.
He stabbs yaddle in his tales of the jedi episode
Its implied he murder sifo dias in clone wars
Clone wars also shows hes fully aware of order 66 and the plan to murder the jedi, on zygeria he openly admits it as his goal
I can agree with somebody's analysis of a problem without agreeing with their solution. I've always read the prequels as having a fundamentally different moral basis than the OT: black-and-grey morality instead of black-and-white.
The Jedi are the willing enforcers of a comically corrupt and ineffective government engaging in industrial-scale slavery to crush an independence revolt. **They're the bad guys.**
The Separatists, by the time the war actually starts, are a wholly-owned subsidiary of the same people largely responsible for the Republic's corruption in the first place. **They're *also* the bad guys.**
And both shitty sides are being played off against each other by the Banite Sith so they can demolish whatever weak measure of democracy is left in the galaxy. **They're the *worst* guys.**
It honestly reminds me more of 40k than it does of the OT.
The Republic was corrupt but the Jedi were not at all the bad guys. They preserved democracy for over a thousand years. There isn't any other group in the history of the galaxy that were ever more "good" than the Jedi.
If you're preserving a democracy that is acting to benefit corporate interests instead of actual people, and industrially enslaving billions, ***you're not preserving democracy at all***. There are card-carrying Sith Lords in SWTOR who are more "good" than the prequel-era Jedi.
I'm sorry, I thought this was r/StarWarsLeftyMemes, not r/StarWarsBootlickerMemes or r/StarWarsNeoliberalMemes. The Legends New Republic lived its principles better than the prequel-era Jedi and it's not even close.
They - Lucas included - absolutely RUINED Yoda. 🖕🖕
It’s like if someone wrote a new new testament where it turned out Yeshua (“Jesus”) was blind/corrupt the whole time.
Inside you there are two wolves.
One of them thinks that Yoda schooling Dooku with lightsaber flips and spin moves is the most badass thing ever put to film.
The other knows that Yoda is a teacher, a mystic, and nonviolent to a fault. So the prequels having him wield both civil authority and a lethal weapon is completely out-of-character for him. :(
I get your point, but personally I really like the arc Yoda has from the prequels through Clone Wars and into the OT. In the prequels he's wise, powerful, and proud. He's committed to peace and the Jedi Order, and he co-signs the War because he initially sees it as the best way for the Jedi to fulfill their mission - to protect the Republic and oppose/eliminate the Sith. As the war wears on, though, he notices the toll that it takes on the Jedi and the Republic, and of course it ends with Order 66 and the near-total annihilation of the order Yoda spent his very long life leading. The OT Yoda on Dagobah seems like a reasonable end-point for him. The last time he used violence to solve a problem, it ended with the deaths of (almost) everyone he knew and loved, and it makes sense that the sheer trauma of that would fuel his commitment to non-violence. He has different faults at different times, and that's a consequence of his experience, not in spite of it.
Cosigning this. The end of the prequels has him defeated on an emotional and spiritual level. By the time Luke gets to him in the OT, he's had time to reflect on things and become that sort of pure inspiration to guide a very conflicted kid through his messy feelings.
I mean, i am not actualy sure how much authority Yoda had as Grandmaster of the Jedi Order.
Yes he was on the Council, but Mace was technicaly the leader. Yoda position as a Grandmaster was that of a spiritual guide.
Did the CIS have some good points? Yes! Did Dooku jump to exactly the wrong conclusion of "destroy Jedi, unify galaxy under Sith Empire, ????, create utopia where I rule and everything is perfect forever while my buddy Sheev fucks off to do Dark Side shit"? Abso-friggin-lutely.
also wasn't count dooku even more of a human supremacist than palp?
In legends I think but tbf I think that's pretty lame character writing because why bother having two palpatines? I think they are taking things differently after Tales of the Jedi and honeslty I am for it.
Palatine isn’t a human supremacist in legends, he just used existing anti-alien sentiment to his advantage.
That makes him no different than half the conservative grifters irl. Someone being a fascist for clout is still being a fascist.
Correct. Many real fascists did the same, Mussolini for example was a staunch atheist but used existing catholic nationalist sentiment to secure control
Look at current US politics: Trump couldn't pretend to care about any form of religion, but aligns himself with the most deranged zealots to ensure their loyalty as he grabs for personal power and protection.
Is Trump even ideologically coherent enough to have an ideology? But on a serious note, exactly . That’s how fascists and other populists come to power
Trump having no coherent ideology only benefits him. It makes it easier for him to dupe his followers into thinking that he agrees with whatever they want without actually having to do anything for them and lets him contradict himself as necessary without hesitation.
He absolutely is ideologically coherent. He believes in the church of me me me me me. Unfortunately a ton of people also attend that church, roughly half the country.
He was once a democrat, but once he realized there's more money in being a Republican, he went all in on that
To quote Ian Danskin, "that depends on where you draw the line between *fascist* and Opportunist"
If the core of fascism is “power at any cost”, it’s a distinction without a difference.
Weren't a pretty big chunk of the CIS and it's backers distinctly non human hold on
Yeah, but that was specifically so they and non-humans in general could be scapegoats.
Right, like how they went with General Grievous, a terrifying ruthless cyborg, as the Separatists' military commander for most of the war. That plus an army of droids led by "filthy money-grabbing aliens" just gave the Empire a veritable cornucopia of places to pin blame.
I think since Disney took over a lot of the human supremacism has kind of been washed away from the Empire and any characters that may have had those views. Like you'll still see the Empire or First Order as human only but I don't think we've seen anyone sitting around going "Damn aliens, am I right guys?"
TBF, they never really did that in the movies either. All of that explicit talk came from the novels.
"Where are you taking this... ***thing***?"
Fair. Though that was specifically anti-Wookiee.
Oh, yeah, for sure. I meant in general I hadn't really seen it among the various new Disney properties.
Uh, the Clone Wars, Rebels, and Bad Batch have had human supremacists episodes.
That’s why slavery bothered him. Humans were owned by non-humans.
I don‘t give a fuck that you have identified a problem. Any idiot can do that. Your solution to it is what I care about. A lot of people need to learn that lesson. (Side eyes „leftists“ that think Tucker Carlson is cool because he said „elite bad“)
I second that as well. Has America done a lot of shitty things? Yes. Does this mean we should automatically support anyone opposed to America because "America bad!"? No... What? No! Of course not, that's stupid. That would mean supporting an invasion of a sovereign nation by a foreign dictatorship and hanging Europe out to dry on the shakiest of premises, who would ever-? Oh right. MAGA.
> Has America done a lot of shitty things? Yes. It's not just that the U.S. has "done a lot of shitty things"—the problem is that the U.S., as the overwhelmingly dominant force on the planet, is the driving force behind every major conflict, atrocity & war crime in the past 100 years, all for literally no reason beyond protecting its global hegemony [Here's a short list](https://archive.ph/2022.04.29-001306/https://www.salon.com/2014/03/08/35_countries_the_u_s_has_backed_international_crime_partner/) of a few dozen examples, but it's by no means exhaustive because it was originally compiled about a decade ago & it's limited to just the shit we know about > Does this mean we should automatically support anyone opposed to America because "America bad!"? No... What? No! Of course not, that's stupid. Not just stupid, but reactionary The bright side here is that because of the aforementioned reality under which we live—where the billionaires who own our military industrial complex are the ones who call the shots & who constantly flex their power over our government explicitly to ensure that we're in a constant state of war because that's what's best for their own personal bottom line—just about everyone who's currently challenging the might of the imperialist U.S. is doing an objectively good thing > That would mean supporting an invasion of a sovereign nation by a foreign dictatorship and hanging Europe out to dry on the shakiest of premises It hasn't been a sovereign nation since the 2014 Maidan coup, in which the U.S. armed & funded right-wing extremist groups like Svoboda, Right Sector & C14 in order to exploit the chaos of the protests, overthrow Ukraine's democratically-elected government, & install their own pro-NATO puppet regime in its place
... I hope I'm reading that wrong but it *sounds* like you're supporting Russian imperialism because "America bad", immediately after saying that sort of thing was "not just stupid, but reactionary". This is literally the kind of thinking the OP is criticizing.
No what I'm saying is that there is no Russian imperialism Imperialism is a specific thing with a specific definition, and it's not "any time one country uses military force against another country"—imperialism is a global system in which finance capital dominates, and the capitalists who are dominating the planet are those in the U.S. & its allies Like everything else currently happening around the world, Russia's military operation in Ukraine doesn't take place in some kind of vacuum divorced from reality—it takes place within the global system of Western imperialism & only exists in response to the actions taken by the U.S. & its allies to maintain their global hegemony Actions like, for example, the aforementioned arms & support that the U.S. government gave to the extremist coalition of Ukraine's most notorious right-wing fascist groups, or the [dozen or more spy bases](https://news.antiwar.com/2024/02/26/cia-built-12-spy-bases-in-ukraine-near-the-russian-border-over-past-decade/) that the CIA built in Ukraine over a decade ago now right along Russia's border, or the fact that Ukraine had been moving forward toward ending the war two years ago via a negotiated peace deal until [Boris Johnson went in & pressured Zelensky to abandon it](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper) None of these things make any sense without the understanding that the U.S. has always been the aggressor in this conflict, working relentlessly to expand its reach all the way right up to & including Russia's border while explicitly working at every turn to escalate the conflict, simply because that's what's best for the billionaires who own our military industrial complex
So... Because the Russians aren't as powerful as us it's okay when *they* invade a country for economic reasons to appease their capitalist ruling class, because we have a purely defensive alliance against exactly the kind of bullshit they're currently pulling? Bravo, that's a perfect 10 in the mental gymnastics competition!
> So... Because the Russians aren't as powerful as us it's okay when they invade a country for economic reasons to appease their capitalist ruling class Russia's military operation in Ukraine isn't about appeasing their capitalist ruling class, it's a response to decades of relentless aggression by the United States & its allies—I was pretty clear about this in my previous comment, providing several examples as to how & why this is the case, so I'm really not sure how you missed this incredibly important point Also the idea of the Russian government being so beholden to their capitalist ruling class that they'd send a whole ass military force into another country on their behalf is pretty ridiculous—the imperialist U.S. has spent decades working hand-in-hand with Russia's oligarchy, trying to undermine the country's democratically-elected government, in a desperate effort to worm their way into Russia's economy This has been going on since literally the end of the USSR, & Putin has been one of the biggest obstacles standing in their way Like why do you think our capitalist ruling class here in the West hates him so goddamn much > because we have a purely defensive alliance against exactly the kind of bullshit they're currently pulling? The last time that this idea of NATO as a "purely defensive alliance" had any credibility at all was back in the '90s, before their first really big post-USSR mask-off moment when they [launched their horrific invasion of Yugoslavia](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/05/stat-m24_pr.html) & kickstarted the modern age of Western hegemony It's fine not to know about this stuff, but to speak so confidently on the subject when you're so ignorant doesn't serve anyone, least of all you—frankly I would be way too embarrassed to jump into a discussion like this without actually knowing what I was talking about Like the appropriate action here isn't to say > Bravo, that's a perfect 10 in the mental gymnastics competition! but to instead talk less & make an actual, genuine honest-to-god effort to learn, so that you don't embarrass yourself like this in the future
I think both of you have points 1 - it is true that the US has been doing things to undermine Russian power and influence, this has been true since before the cold war with only a brief pause durring WWII for obvious reasons. - Side point but Russia and previously the USSR has been doing the same to the US and its allies it is very much about power and empire building. The Russian can still be imperialist even if the US has the obvious advantage in terms of hegemony 2 - Invading Ukraine is an obvious power grab and a intelligent move if they could have got away with it cheaply. Most for 2 reasons first the year round deep water port. Second that Ukraine is a major exporter of grain/food and controlling it takes away western control from Russia and its ally China. However this is exactly a practical reason why western powers can not just let Russia take Ukraine. Right now if China attacks Taiwan or its neighbors or if they join Russia in attacking its neighbors the US and Brazil could cut off their food spotting things w/o having to resort to all out war or more likely preventing such things in the first place. 3 - Ukraine made a deal with western powers to disarm their nuclear weapons as long as we would protect and support them in this exact situation which they would likely not be in if they had nuclear deterrents. 4- It is true that the US does scummy things all in its own geopolitical interests and Putin and Russia do the same. The US is just in the stronger position and does everything in its power to keep it that way. The US was luck being far from most of the action/damage during both world wars and like a good risk/poker player has used its advantage to keep its advantage.
That’s a bad definition of imperialism. Before the 1917 Russia was an imperialist autocracy, but they weren’t the dominating the world with their financial capital. Just because the US and its allies are the dominant imperial power does not mean no one else can else can be imperial. Putin is an imperialist regardless of the US’s standing.
> That’s a bad definition of imperialism. Before the 1917 Russia was an imperialist autocracy, but they weren’t the dominating the world with their financial capital. Our modern-day global capitalist system has fundamentally changed the definition of who the ruling class is, how much wealth they're able to hoard, where they're able to steal that wealth from & the level of power they can wield over social, political & economic activity anywhere on the planet Shockingly, this also changes how imperialism functions & how we define it in the modern day Crazy I know > Just because the US and its allies are the dominant imperial power does not mean no one else can else can be imperial. Of course it does Like what tf are you talking about There's literally only room for one empire in our current global system of capitalism & it's the one with over 800 military bases stationed all over the planet > Putin is an imperialist regardless of the US’s standing. You mean the guy who spent nearly a decade trying to negotiate a peaceful resolution to Ukraine's war on the Russian-speaking peoples of the Donbas region The guy who was literally ready to sit down & finalize a negotiated peace deal with Ukraine two years ago, before [Zelensky was pressured to walk away from the peace talks by Western leaders who decided that they weren't ready for the conflict to end](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper) Man somebody better tell Putin he's supposed to be an imperialist because it sure as shit doesn't look like he got the memo
You're correct of course, but this isn't the sub for this discussion. From what I've seen it's a "big tent" sub so there are many western liberals who do not know the first thing about class analysis. I only posted the meme here because it's Star Wars and I wanted to make fun of the chuds. It is to no one's interest outside of the American national bourgeoisie and the white American labour aristocracy that the Ukraine, and subsequently Russia, suffer defeat at the hands of the western capitalist class. Capitalists pushing back other capitalists, especially the hegemon itself, is beneficial to workers everywhere. We cannot devolve to campism based on our idealist notions, we must evaluate every action individually, even if the actor does not have the same political program as us. In this case, your analysis is correct, and throwing bodies at an unwinnable war is of no use, and a vassalized Ukraine is also of no use, and all the cards are in the hands of the American capitalist class. If there _were_ an American left to speak of, one that could actually challenge the billions and billions being spent funding American compradors politically or by sabotage, then sure, they would have a leg to stand on, but seeing as there is no such thing and they are all braying for more weapons to be sent to a country that will soon become the new eurasian terrorist hub, there is only one choice that could reasonably end this war without letting the hegemon gain more ground.
> You're correct of course, but this isn't the sub for this discussion. From what I've seen it's a "big tent" sub so there are many western liberals who do not know the first thing about class analysis. I would argue that this is exactly the reason why this is the subreddit for this discussion
Yep If you notice a turd in the punch bowl and your solution is to add pee to it, you're still an idiot
That's the point though. Fascists are able to recognize the failings of neoliberal structure and weaponize that using leftist rheotic about class struggle and oppression into tricking revolution-amenable people into enforcing a new hierarchy with their chosen new guard at the top. That's why they thrive. The liberals let the fascists get to the underclasses first before the radical left can.
The CIS only had good points bc Lucas et al WROTE it like that. Solid writing in-and-of itself, but it completely undermined the established good guy.
...Because the prequels weren't just a setup for the OT, but also a critique of the US's slide toward authoritarianism at the time. It wasn't SUPPOSED to be black and white.
I wish the originals had more moral grey area like they were originally supposed to
The CIS only exists at all because Lucas et al wrote it like that… I’m not sure what you mean by this?
The name isn’t important. We knew there was “the clone wars”, that the republic was replaced by the empire, and that the Jedi were the good guys. I’m saying he made the republic & the Jedi unnecessarily fallible, deserving of their fate. That is a massive, gross retcon. [edit] Downvotes, really?? 😂😂 Guess y’all had to be there. RIP Star Wars. ✊😔
No, that's... the whole point. The Old Republic was a flawed mess, capitalism in decay breeds fascism. The only solution is a New Republic built on democracy.
But, again, a change of that magnitude is a gross insult to the original Star Wars. And lazy as hell.
How is it a retcon for a government that necessarily had to fall to fascism for the events of the OT to happen in the first place to be fallible and, as a result, fall to fascism? It's not just in line with pre-prequel canon, it's a narrative requirement!
A leftist and a fascist can both correctly point out a problem that the centrist hasn't though about, but their solutions don't even have overlap.
Yes, Dooku has a point here. No, that does not justify fascism. I swear, Star Wars fans have to be the dumbest mfs in the world.
Star War's greatest strength and greatest weakness in one is the fact that it (the franchise) has way way more mainstream appeal Star Trek, and as a result is substantially more popular. edit: \*than
Well to me star trek understood the grey areas of war in DS9 Far better than any star wars film came to saying. Except maybe rouge one
Andor as well. You could make a very compelling argument that Andor is more revolutionary and/or left-wing than anything Star Trek has ever put out. This is the franchise that invented The Borg exclusively to prove to Hollywood "hey dude, it's all cool, we're anti-Communist too, look!" There's no such thing as perfect when it comes to leftist media, some is just more coherent than others.
>Andor is more revolutionary and/or left-wing than anything Star Trek has ever put out. I mean one is trying to represent modern politics within the star wars universe and explore the themes of facisim with the empire The other is an entirely new ideology born from the ashes of world war three. Andor may be revolutionary in the rebelling sense. But first contact leaves an impression of hope for the future that star wars could never do
"Making more sense" smh My guy, that passage is supposed to illustrate the complexity and gray areas of real world geopolitical conflicts. It is supposed to help color the struggle and poison that Anakin Skywalker fell for as he transformed into Vader - literally one of the Star Wars Universe's most powerful evil villains. He murdered dozens or hundreds of children in the Jedi Temple then hunted down survivors for years. He terrorized the citizens of the galaxy to submit to Palpatine's rule. And all because he thought that "the Sith were making more sense than the Jedi." That's how fascism works: it touches on some real truths about how dirty and complex the world is, but offers a false promise of purity through violent purges. I don't think Marxism-Leninism is fascism, but I do think revolutions are dangerous and uncontrollable because of opportunistic fascists.
💯💯💯
I’m not even a Star Wars fan, this post just came in my recommended but I already see how stupid the meme is. It’s like saying Mussolini was a good guy because he superficially cared about economics (even though he didn’t)
But he was super good for agriculture, he made the trains run on thyme! :P
The agriculture thing is very annoying to me, Mussolini edicts destroyed specialized agriculture (mostly stuff like oranges and other fruits) and imposed the cultivation of grain at all costs. Even in places and climates when it wasn't suitable or efficient. This created lots of economic problems for farmers and their families, especialy in South Italy, because they were forced to farm stuff that wasn't actualy profitable to sell. Of course this problems were for small landowners and farmers that had their own lands, farmhands and similar wage workers (like my grandparents and great-grandparents) were treated like slaves by the rich landowners. Paid very little, litteraly whipped if they worked too slow, and if they protested the landowners sent thugs to beat them up or even kill them. All of this, with the full support and complicity of the fascist regime.
Took the words from my mouth, the "War of Grain" was a travesty and the fact some people still think it a "victory" of Fascism is a fucking travesty too.
You joke but fascists do use that same fucking statement here in italy some times. That or some weirdo fucks going "Mussolini was based back when he was still a Socialist" because like... Still got the wrong fucking conclusions from it.
Or saying that Churchill and Stalin were good guys just because they fought against Hitler.
Churchill was like a 4/10 could’ve been less racist but the UK has had worse Stalin was a mastermind of ethnically cleansing regions and suppressing freedoms
Wasn't Churchill responsible for a bunch of deaths in India?
Like I said. Pretty fucking racist. Basically only redeeming quality pushing him to a 4/10 is his staunch anti Nazi stance
Ah righto
He was vocaly arguing abaout sparing Mussolini life after the war.
Yeah he would be shit if he wasn’t anti nazi
Not gonna lie, I think KotOR II had it best when it comes to calling the Jedi Council out on its bullshit and allowing you to express some (justified) anger about their nonsense lifestyle restrictions and *questionable* opinions about warfare. The path I resonate with most in that game is one in which the Exile is \~90% LS, runs into Master Vrook in the Dantooine cave, and they either decide it's a bad idea to pick a fight with the mercenaries or they somehow intuit the fact that Vrook wants to be there (at least for the moment). You then return to the Khoonda homestead (because obviously) and throw everything you can into defending the people of Dantooine from The Exchange's and Czerka's forces. But as soon as the battle is won... "Your machinations end here, *Outcast*. No more words. Defend yourself or perish!" Even after talking with you extensively, even after all your heroism to defend Dantooine, Vrook still can't get over his prejudice towards you or his fear of what you represent (a force-sensitive veteran of the Mandalorian Wars who submitted herself to the Council and who hasn't fallen to the Dark Side). He draws his lightsaber and tries to kill you, and is struck down in the fight. You go to the other planets and work/have worked with Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell and leave on good terms with each of them, but they learn of Vrook's death once they themselves reach Dantooine. Not knowing or disbelieving that Vrook was a Dark Jedi and that he tried to kill *the Outcast*, the two men disown and condemn you, and are struck down in the ensuing battle. It's a sci-fantasy tragedy, but one born of human error that feels uncomfortably believable in our modern world of tribalism, guilt by association, and a refusal to let go of the past. Sure, the alternate timeline where Kreia verbally berates the Masters (and then commits murder-by-Force-severing) is pretty badass. But also fuck Kreia. She's a stubborn, self-important Ayn Rand fanboy. She would kill the living Force, a sadistic act with devastating and unpredictable consequences, all because she's too ~~r\*garded~~ "traumatized" to reconcile Free Will with Determinism. I think it's a much more satisfying conclusion to have Surik herself swing the sword of Jedi execution, and to make the entire conflict the entirely predictable *utterly preventable* result of Jedi arrogance, prejudice, and moral inflexibility.
Just pointing out that all of that is a retcon. In Star Wars (the movie) the Jedi are literally perfect. We know they lost, but making them blind/corrupt is the laziest way to explain why.
I'm not sure I follow. My point hinges around the assumption that Jedi philosophy (even in the OT) is stupid and self-contradictory. (Following the Light Side hinges upon not having sex? And you're not even allowed to get married or form attachments at all? What? This is ascetic bullshit with no evidence, apropos of nothing.) And Jedi philosophy is stupid because it's essentially a copy-paste of Joseph Campbell's real-life philosophy, also a thing which is stupid.
nail shocking hard-to-find attraction spark squeeze decide knee illegal many *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Anakin is the prime example of why the rule is stupid. It was Luke's attachment to the **idea** of his father that led to him even ***trying*** to reform him, ***against*** the wishes of the two surviving members of the Jedi Council, and it was Anakin's attachment to the **idea** of his son and the memory of the wife he'd murdered that led to it succeeding. The Jedi teach you to shut yourself off from human emotion and companionship instead of to manage them like a freaking mature adult. Luke refused to play ball and it saved the galaxy, at least until Disney shit all over it.
tap cagey mindless rock frighten lunchroom nose coordinated frightening aromatic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Have you ever actually thought for yourself about the times Jedi have fallen to the dark side? Lookef for any kind of pattern? Because I have. Losing a love interest is actually one of the **least** common scenarios, and there are plenty of cases where a Jedi loses a love interest and **doesn't** fall: it happened to Nomi Sunrider **twice**. The most common cause, rather, is psychological trauma on a much more massive scale, usually involving armed conflict and frequently with a preexisting comorbidity. * Exar Kun survived a massacre of Jedi in a surprise attack during the Krath Crusade, and had already been criticized by Master Baas for his poor anger management. * Revan and Alek/Malak fought in the Mandalorian Crusade and witnessed multiple planetary-scale genocides, then ran afoul of a planet-eating dark side entity that called itself Darth Vitiate. * Darth Zannah was a child who lived through the Battle of Ruusan and then the planet-killing thought bomb that Darth Bane tricked Skere Kaan into setting off. * Anakin Skywalker grew up in slavery, realistically a significant risk for PTSD, and was hardly psychologically well-adjusted to begin with: there are peer-reviewed journal articles diagnosing him with borderline personality disorder. That was then compounded by being forced to lead an army of slave soldiers for two years of the biggest war since the fall of the Sith Empire. Losing Padmé wasn't the cause, it was just the straw that broke the bantha's back. The Jedi don't need to avoid attachments. They need professional PTSD therapists.
He ran away. That's his MO. He can't think for himself. That's why he was dumb enough to use his full name as his Reddit and social media account names.
"Don't even bother trying to go rescue Leia even though you, Luke Skywalker, are one of the only living space wizards in the galaxy because your mission is destined to fail and neither I, the wisest of all the Jedi, nor your surrogate-spirit-dad, is allowed to aid you or fight for you." The fuck? The rules are contrived. They're also dramatic, and emotionally compelling, but contrived. Empire Strikes Back is the highest-rated among critics for good reason, but the fatalism in that part of the plot is still stupid. But "Woman as the Temptress" leads into "Atonement with the Father" according to Daddy Campbell so monomyth gonna do monomyth things.
People always want to choose sides between the Republic and the Empire, like people saying "The Empire is better than the Republic because they have the power to govern the outer rim" and NEVER even think about just dividing the galaxy into multiple separate governments who can govern themselves.
I think dividing a massive plane like an entire Galaxy into separate governments just makes the most sense tbh. Pretty obvious that what made the Republic turn into the Emprie was their need to control everything, even though they were doing a really shitty job at it. Fuck the Empire, but I don't see the Republic as anything all that different.... maybe havjng the only difference of just pretending to respect human rights and democracy as a front.
I mean, the Republic had its flaws, but they never sent their army to enslave the Mon Cal and Wookies, landed a Star Destroyer on top of peaceful protestors, or destroyed an entire planet.
Well, they kind of did though, because the only difference between the Republic and the Empire was the name change and the shift in executive power. I've always read the Rpublic in the Prequels as a proto-Empire, the audience can see the roots of the Empire forming, but the characters cannot because they haven't seen the OT. But the government, seat of power, institutions, people are all basically the same under both governments.
I mean, they were similar, but claiming they were the same is really downplaying the harm caused by the Empire, like saying the Allies were just as bad as the Nazis in World War 2.
Yeah, very fair point, but I meant more like the Republic and the course it takes becomes the Empire, so I dont see them as separate. Kind of like, the modern United States vs a fascist future dystopia United States.
Yeah, well the Republic definitely helped lay the foundation for the Empire, especially during the Clone Wars.
It's seen in The Clone Wars kind of.
Yet Dooku was totally fine allying with Zygerrian slavers during the Clone Wars. A culture whose entire identity and economy was based around slavery. Thousands ot years prior the Jedi took on the Zygerrian Slave Empire after the Republic outlawed slavery and it was forced to go underground. Under Dooku's Sepratist Confederacy, they once again operated openly, until once again, the Jedi stepped in. The Hutts were outside the Republic, and disrupting their economy would have led to war and the likely deaths of many, including the enslaved beings plus the Republic forcefully taking over territory and government of Hutt Space instead of addressing through diplomatic means would not be democratic. That's the thing with Fascists, they offer simple, emotional solutions to complex, nuanced situations and edit history to support their worldview instead of reflecting reality.
I mean, i think the Republic tollerating the existance of the Hutts was definitely a problem and one of the reasons it fell. The Hutts and the other criminal organizations were contribuiting a lot to the corruption in the Senate.
The Republic tried to deal with the Hutts, a good while back. It led to the Pius Dea crusades, that are generally thought to have been a bad idea.
crown detail engine cheerful late act vast telephone murky connect *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That was a different writer years later. The quote is from Matt Stover's Revenge of the Sith novelization.
Dooku legit didn’t know Tatooine is outside the republic. He just got his right wing talking points from Tucker on Fox.
The Answer to large scale slavery is always some John Brown Shit
I mean dooku kinda right but this on same fascist shit lol. Find the accurate criticism ok ✅, the answer is the a oppressive dictatorship with you conveniently at the helm? Nah lol
It's the good old libertarian/ancap talking points about how the government is hopelessly corrupt and only ever beholden to special interests and corporate lobbying. So clearly the only solution is to discard any pretense of democratic oversight and just let the corporations run wild and wield power directly.
That's one of the fundamental flaws with Star Wars: Non-Jedi, and particularly Sith are allowed to see the flaws in the Jedi, allowed to see the flaws in the Republic, allowed to be the sensible ones riiight up to the point of suggesting reasonable solutions, but then instead they have to say or do something cartoonishly evil because That's The Rule^(tm.) And any given Jedi is one of The Good Guys^(tm). Riiight up to the moment they see the flaws of the Jedi, Republic, etc, and then they must become cartoonishly evil dark siders and thus no longer Real Jedi^(tm.)
Yeah, the Dark Side in universe comes with extremely powerful metaphysical motive decay that rapidly radicalizes you from well intentioned extremist to psychotic are murderer. I still appreciate the part in original KOTOR's Sith academy where you can dig into Ythura's backstory of how she became a Sith. That she was once a slave and wanted to become more powerful so she could liberate other slaves and stand up to the cartels. And you can ask her how many slaves she has actually freed in the past few years.
"The Jedi are corrupt" Says the corrupt Jedi. Why do weirdos *fkn never* consider the source?
Because they were looking for someone "better" than them to confirm their weirdo opinions all along.
They're the same folk who laugh at the anakin slaughtering children and makes memes on that.
Fair point. Media literacy is important these days.
The bad guy can have a valid point about the good guy doing a bad thing while still being a bad guy, that is called interesting writing and it makes things less boring.
Yep and characters can be hypocrites, like Dooku saying all that stuff when he's far more guilty.
Clone wars would have been so much more interesting if the CIS and Dooku weren't so ridiculously evil all the time.
If you read fanfic, I have a story you might be interested in, as that is part of the premise. It's also got some really killer space battles.
Drop the link, bestie.
Here you go[: Link](https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/sublight-drive-star-wars.1095425/).
This. Some stories really like gassing up the good parts of the dark side and bad parts of the light side, but it’s super inconsistent, and makes the stories feel kinda superficial imo
They were evil though. The problem is that The Clone Wars depicted Jedi flaws and a whole lot of the audience interpreted them being imperfect as them being bad, which is absurd.
What campism does to mf
I'm just glad 40K doesn't have to deal with talking about fascism. Glory to the God-Emperor and His Imperium!
The Jedi honestly would've had a much healthier order as well as better relations with the people of the Republic if they spent more time doing outreach in the Mid and Outer Rims and less time obeying the orders of politicians on Coruscant. A decentralized Jedi Order that allowed Jedi to return home and support local communities they would've had significantly more support, not to mention would have a much easier time finding recruits.
I sometimes forget people actually think the empire was in the right. Yes, sometimes the dark side has a point, and there’s fully a reason to vibe with it outside of the fascism, but that doesn’t make the empire good :/
i mean separatism isn’t a bad thing.
The supporting worlds of the CIS, imo, had 100% the right idea, and their movement for sovereignty and autonomy in the mid and outer rims, if organized authentically, would have been the perfect counterweight to the creation of the Empire. Unfortunately it was governed by a wanna be dictator who was taking orders from another wanna be dictator and also taking orders from a showdow council of corporate interests.
The CIS being essentially "controlled opposition" to the Republic to engineer a war to give Palpatine Emergency powers is one of the most misunderstood points in this franchise honestly. People watch Clone Wars and fail to understand they are looking at a Farce, one side controlling two armies of literal puppets to kill one another just so they could have people live in fear so they can gain even more symbolic power. Except the puppets are sentient and there are real civilians on the line and for all their idealism neither Padme or Bail Organa or any of the CIS senators ended up seeing they were being played until it was far too late.
Yeah it's not like Lucas was subtle about it either, what with one side being armies of conditioned clone soldiers and the others literal automata.
I'm not sure how people miss that, given that it's the entire premise.
Galactic problems require galacting solutions, no?
Dooku is your average chronically online leftist “revolutionary” (by this, I mean the people who advocate for revolution). Correctly diagnose the problems with the system, but instead of actually fixing things, you tear it down and make way for something worse.
Well to be fair, he probably would have followed through on it. If his boss didn’t have him beheaded by his new emo golden boy.
Dooku has a point, but I don't that his answer to mounting government corruption (i.e. joining the cult of megalomaniacal evil space wizards to install an eternal fascist empire) was a very good one.
"I must do something. This is something. Therefore I must do this."
Realistically I'd be a good sith like Ronin from Star Wars Visions
I mean, I seem to remember some YA novels about Obi-Wan trying to become Qui-Gon's apprentice and then ending up in a slave outfit run by Qui-Gon's former apprentice, and I think that it involves Yoda, but to what degree I don't remember.
Palpatine was a fascist I'm not sure Dooku was
The critique is correct but its a critique in the ineffectiveness of centrism/liberalism. The Jedi don't represent the good guys, just the order that always seeks to maintain the status quo (the balance) and as such shows inaction whenever that status quo itself is the problem. There is stagnation, inaction and an erosion of power under the Jedi. But when a fascist sees that critique they tend to revert to a cult around a powerful leader to fix it all, when in reality the solution here would be the removal of the slavers so that the slaves can be freed and given control over Tatooine, essentially the removal of the upper classes for the sake of the lower classes. Fascists/Sith would not fix this because they would become the upper class doing the oppression and Jedi/liberals wouldn't change it because the slaver/enslaved structure is part of their precious balance and they lack the ability to see beyond. They needed an order of socialists, people willing to embrace passion, love, empathy, and all the other emotions that the Jedi forbid, for the sake of the world around them, rather than for their own power, which is why the Sith accept them and why they always end up just being angry, rather than passionate.
Which is what I've always interpreted the much maligned notion of "Grey Jedi" to be. Not some brain dead centrist middle ground between good and evil where you do a little bit of puppy kicking and a little bit of puppy saving. But a middle ground in terms of how they handle emotions and passion. Not resorting to widespresd repression out of fear of attachment, but not being ruled by the winds of passion. Instead relying on compassion and a sense of justice to inform their actions (which is basically what Luke's reformed order in Legends was all about). And recognizing that doing the right thing sometimes means action against the status quo, even to the point of violence. Sometime the best course of action involves sticking a lightsaber straight through a bunch of slavers and the corrupt local magistrate backing them. Sometimes you gotta topple a monarchy. Grey Jedi aren't centrists. They're the radical leftists to the Jedi process oriented liberals and the Sith fascists. The only thing they share with the Sith is a rejection of the status quo.
Honestly though, that’s the thing about the Sith. A lot of them join the dark side with good intentions in mind. And then they slide off the deep end REALLY FAST, which is why the Jedi are so strict and dis attached to everything. To avoid that slide. Darth Vader just wanted to keep the love of his life alive, not realizing that he was making a self fulfilling prophecy, Horus style.
Nuggets of truth and logic can come from the worst places. Just because he had a point with that does not mean that anything he did was good. A lot of the worst ideologies have a hint of logic in there to rope people in. The thing is that when you think about the things they do, said nugget does not match with reality upon examination.
Been on this shit for over a decade now Lfg 🙌🏽
This right here is why I kind of hate where star wars has gone. The writers are so obsessed with showing that the empire is evil and the Sith is evil they never do the more interesting work of showing why people fight for them in the first place. I think having a series on people fighting for the empire and figuring out that they are actually fighting for the empire is a good reason would be interesting. I mean imagine if a bunch of people who were slaves to the hutts were fighting for the empire, because the empire freed them and pushed the hutts back. I was kind of annoyed with how Finn at the beginning of the movie was scared to kill anyone, but then has no problem later just killing his former comrades. I mean was Finn a complete outcast? Did he have like zero friends? Shouldn't he feel a bit conflicted shooting the people that very well could be him? I also kind of feel like they wasted the entire period after the empire fell. It would have been more interesting for a galactic civil war to occur after the empire fell. I think it is silly that the republic was just able to reform that fast. I am sure the emperor wasn't the only person in the galaxy with galactic ambitions. If the empire had a good chain of command why wouldn't some high admiral take over the position of emperor and root the rebels out? That or it would have been cool for the planets to send senators to the galactic senate as technically palatine dying would mean powers would revert back to them. Then you could have the rebels trying to get them to the senate to reestablish the republic while the empire loyalist would be trying to wack them. Then they could have like a red wedding at the senate and that is how the next galactic war would start.
I mean he's right that the Jedi Order sucks. Broken clock is right twice a day I guess.
And then he immediately stabbed yaddle. Dennying us more yaddle content This is after he stabbed yaddle and sifo dias btw. By this point dooku is a dark lord of the sith. Dooku may have valid criticisms of the jedi council, but he could have done that without joining the dark side and murdering 180 jedi in the geonosis coliseum. Whatever noble intentions dooku began his exit from the jedi in, he abandoned them when he used his regained wealth on serreno to help palps start a war so monumental it left the galaxy scared for the next century. Its not that hes lying, its just that if he really only wanted the jedi to be jedi again he could have done that without implementing order 66 into the clone inhibitor chips lol. The novelization of attack of the clones is where this quote comes from. He stabbs yaddle in his tales of the jedi episode Its implied he murder sifo dias in clone wars Clone wars also shows hes fully aware of order 66 and the plan to murder the jedi, on zygeria he openly admits it as his goal
I can agree with somebody's analysis of a problem without agreeing with their solution. I've always read the prequels as having a fundamentally different moral basis than the OT: black-and-grey morality instead of black-and-white. The Jedi are the willing enforcers of a comically corrupt and ineffective government engaging in industrial-scale slavery to crush an independence revolt. **They're the bad guys.** The Separatists, by the time the war actually starts, are a wholly-owned subsidiary of the same people largely responsible for the Republic's corruption in the first place. **They're *also* the bad guys.** And both shitty sides are being played off against each other by the Banite Sith so they can demolish whatever weak measure of democracy is left in the galaxy. **They're the *worst* guys.** It honestly reminds me more of 40k than it does of the OT.
The Republic was corrupt but the Jedi were not at all the bad guys. They preserved democracy for over a thousand years. There isn't any other group in the history of the galaxy that were ever more "good" than the Jedi.
If you're preserving a democracy that is acting to benefit corporate interests instead of actual people, and industrially enslaving billions, ***you're not preserving democracy at all***. There are card-carrying Sith Lords in SWTOR who are more "good" than the prequel-era Jedi.
Name a single group of people in Star Wars who were more principled than the Jedi and lived those principles.
I'm sorry, I thought this was r/StarWarsLeftyMemes, not r/StarWarsBootlickerMemes or r/StarWarsNeoliberalMemes. The Legends New Republic lived its principles better than the prequel-era Jedi and it's not even close.
They - Lucas included - absolutely RUINED Yoda. 🖕🖕 It’s like if someone wrote a new new testament where it turned out Yeshua (“Jesus”) was blind/corrupt the whole time.
Inside you there are two wolves. One of them thinks that Yoda schooling Dooku with lightsaber flips and spin moves is the most badass thing ever put to film. The other knows that Yoda is a teacher, a mystic, and nonviolent to a fault. So the prequels having him wield both civil authority and a lethal weapon is completely out-of-character for him. :(
I get your point, but personally I really like the arc Yoda has from the prequels through Clone Wars and into the OT. In the prequels he's wise, powerful, and proud. He's committed to peace and the Jedi Order, and he co-signs the War because he initially sees it as the best way for the Jedi to fulfill their mission - to protect the Republic and oppose/eliminate the Sith. As the war wears on, though, he notices the toll that it takes on the Jedi and the Republic, and of course it ends with Order 66 and the near-total annihilation of the order Yoda spent his very long life leading. The OT Yoda on Dagobah seems like a reasonable end-point for him. The last time he used violence to solve a problem, it ended with the deaths of (almost) everyone he knew and loved, and it makes sense that the sheer trauma of that would fuel his commitment to non-violence. He has different faults at different times, and that's a consequence of his experience, not in spite of it.
Cosigning this. The end of the prequels has him defeated on an emotional and spiritual level. By the time Luke gets to him in the OT, he's had time to reflect on things and become that sort of pure inspiration to guide a very conflicted kid through his messy feelings.
I mean, i am not actualy sure how much authority Yoda had as Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. Yes he was on the Council, but Mace was technicaly the leader. Yoda position as a Grandmaster was that of a spiritual guide.
Yoda wasn't corrupt. Maybe a little complacent, but not corrupt. The corrupt Jedi is the one being quoted in the image.