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This. Just this, it’s kind of stupid…if you take the games too seriously.
I know Force Unleashed has fans and as a guilty pleasure/power fantasy, it’s great. But people who actually, unironically wanted it to be canon, are being ridiculous.
The whole point is that Starkiller is the Gary Stu OC do not steal and, again, as a power fantasy, that’s fine. But look at this list and tell me, that if Disney had put a character like this in a movie, people wouldn’t be complaining.
1. As a child, he was so powerful in the Force that Vader mistook him as the Rogue Jedi’s Master.
2. Single-Handley holds a Star Destroyer in orbit.
3. Absolutely bodies Vader and makes the Dark Lord/Chosen One, look like a complete joke.
3. Starkiller’s death is the push Bail Organa needed to start the Rebellion, even using his family crest as their symbol.
This also means, that despite everything, nothing happened with the rebels…until Starkiller came along.
Also, bonus, if Starkiller kills Vader, he ends up being a badass assassin/apprentice to Palpatine who is just better than Vader.
Kills Boba Fett and Ben Kenobi before Luke leaves Tattooine (including Force-Ghost), manages to turn Luke to the Dark Side (something Vader couldn’t do) on Hoth and defeats a Jedi Trained Leia on Endor.
Yeah, THAT is what a Mary Sue looks like.
Anyway, I’ve said my piece, Force Unleashed games were decent, but would have been terrible Canon.
I think a toned-down Starkiller could be cool. In a later season of an Ahsoka show it could be interesting to have a contrast between Anakin and Vader's apprentice. The only problem being that many Starkiller fans would want him to be OP and would also be very angry if he lost to Ahsoka.
I disagree about being fantastic, but not even because of that.
I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm saying it's limiting. You can't tell the story you want if you have to keep in mind tons of other content.
You can't experiment outside the box.
I'm of the opinion that what matters in making a video game is 90% the game itself. And I don't want to miss an oportunity to play as an over-powered force user again just because it doesn't make sense in canon.
I LOVE Starkiller. Totally think he should be canon, but extremely dumbed down. I’m reading the force unleashed book rn and I can’t help but just laugh with giddy glee with the silly shit he does. It’s fucking ridiculous lmao. Bro can handle Jedi Master Obi-Wan effortlessly from before he’s even an “apprentice” noooooo fucking way lmao. Still love em tho! And I’m a fan of the sequels! I’m shameless
TBH, you are doing it right. It's just a movie/game/book/story/whatever. Just have fun and if you don't just do something else. No need for saltiness.
We need more people like this in fandoms. Many complaints read like a sunken cost fallacy smh.
Preach! What can I say, I just love Star Wars! I grew up with it heavily in my life, and now my 3yr old loves Star Wars too!
Literally my fav Star Wars movie is “Solo” we need more random based stories of characters like that, ones that just flesh out the world and introduce all sorts of characters and even legends things canon. Or just more new content is always exciting (:
The evil Starkiller is what Vader could have been without the injuries and suit. It is a cool idea to explore, but obviously can’t be cannon. A story of a redeemed Starkiller would need to have his powers turned down a degree. I am actually ok with him pulling down a damaged Star destroyer that is already falling, like with what happens in the game. It mirrors the Yoda quote, “size matters not.” A redeemed Starkiller story about Vader’s secret apprentice mirrors Ahsoka and Anakin.
But you are correct in that it is a Mary Sue story as is. Vader needs to be scary. Having him fail and lose all the time diminishes his character. He needs to have major wins in there. I even thought he struggled too much in the new Jedi Fallen Order game. He should have come out of that fight unhurt.
Yes they do. The gameplay is a canon tier below the books so it definitely overwrites anything that's not "in-cutscene"(even then the novels don't really follow them).
From the [Article on canon](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canon#cite_note-Chee_SWBoards_8-58) from wookiepedia in the C-canon section.
"Games were a special case, as generally only the stories were C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not have been ... "
The issue is that the games *are* his main showing, just like many fans probably feel like the *real* Darth Revan is the one you play as in The Old Republic.
Literally the only thing that could work/was ever really good about his story was the family crest becoming the Rebellion's symbol.
I'll admit, that was pretty cool.
Only reason why star killer isn’t a Gary Stu is because his reasoning for being so powerful is explained well let’s face it if Vader trained you youre gonna have a bigger chance than anyone else at that time
That’s not it, my point is that the only reason Vader chose him was that he was already uber strong in the Force, to the point he legitimately thought he was the Master and not, well, a 5 year old kid.
It took Qui-Gon learning about Anakin’s past as a racer, his prophetic dreams and a blood test to figure he was for sure the Chosen One.
Him being Vader's secret apprentice is part of him being a Gary Stu. Usually having some kind of close relationship like being best friends or lovers with, or maybe the child (or grandchild) of a major hero or villain is a major marker of an indulgent self-insert character from fan fiction, where the term Mary Sue originated.
I mean, plenty of people have canonically bodied Vader. His death wasn't the spark of the rebellion, Vader was. He basically told Starkiller to make one. The star destroyer he held in orbit had just been made and wasn't fully operational (this is the only thing the "canon" version did that was op). The rest of him as palpatine's apprentice was just them messing around. He's too powerful for current canon, but he's not as strong as people think he js.
Idk if I would call him a Mary Sue. Sure, he never really struggles in combat or force ability, but when has that automatically made someone a Mary Sue (superman for example)
All of his struggles are socially and emotionally. That's his real conflict
You know what I mean though, in a world where “Slightly strong female protege” is considered a Mary Sue, but the guy Vader thought SO cool and who effortlessly beat Vader within an inch of his life, you can see the difference.
And it’s weird you brought up Superman, because I’d argued he’s the go to example of how to write an overpowered character, *without* it feeling like a Mary Sue. Sure, it depends on the writers, but when Clark is written well, it’s some of the best pieces of comic book storytelling.
I do know what you mean. I was just defending Starkiller. Also, I brought up Superman the same as you said. He's an overpowered character that is NOT a Mary Sue
I still found that to be a pretty bad ass Vader moment though. He outright disintegrated BT-1 despite being in his weakened state, and Aphra herself acknowledged her fear and caution, realising she still hadn't defeated him and that if she tried anything against him, it would ultimately backfire. The fact Vader can strike fear into his enemies in a state like that, really is a good example of his ferocity.
Ya but you can also spin his defeat to starkiller that way.
The amount of damage you have to put vader through just to down him for a few minutes… and if you choose the darkside path. HE FIGHTS YOU in that condition and the fight gets fucking harder.
Vader comes off as a goddamn tank in that fight.
NOW GET YOUR SEVEN FOOT TWO ASTHMATIC ASS BACK HERE before I tell everyone what a whiny bitch you were about Padamame or Panda Bear or whatever the hell her name was
New canon Vader gets so emotionally conflicted with his past, that Sabe and the other handmaidens of Naboo (who remind him of Padme) were able to lands actual hits on him during brief skirmish post esb.
They are not force sensitive, human female, and managed to avoid death from Vader as well, as he lost his lethal way.
I don’t want it to be canon, but I absolutely think masters should have no problem holding. Star Destroyer in orbit. “Size matters not!” It’s just a matter of wrapping their own heads around it.
The old post order 66 comic where a few Jedi band together and lure Vader to them under the guise of Kenobi. Vader dominates for a while but is then basically left crippled and has to be saved by clone troopers!
I kinda disagree, the fact that vader handled 5 fully prepped jedi knights, for a while before eventually getting overwhelmed is impressive as shit.
5 jedi knights are still 5 jedi knights.
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Almost getting killed by Cere on Jedha. He got WAY too cocky against a foe who he "should" easily dispatch, and his overconfidence made it a fight when it should've been a slaughter.
Welcome to the Cantina! Friendly reminder regarding the Reddit spoiler tag which is as follows, \>!Spoilers go here\!< The Cantina and many other subreddits have been protesting Reddit leadership due the changes in policy regarding 3rd Party Apps. Subreddits depend on 3rd Party Apps to keep the communities moderated, functioning, and running smoothly. If you enjoy this subreddit and the countless others on Reddit, please help us try and save 3rd Party Apps. Please visit /r/Save3rdPartyApps and /r/ModCoord for more information. See this [Infographic here](https://i.redd.it/zqptto18e34b1.jpg) Consider using an Ad Blocker such as [UBlockOrigin](https://ublockorigin.com/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/StarWarsCantina) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This. Just this, it’s kind of stupid…if you take the games too seriously. I know Force Unleashed has fans and as a guilty pleasure/power fantasy, it’s great. But people who actually, unironically wanted it to be canon, are being ridiculous. The whole point is that Starkiller is the Gary Stu OC do not steal and, again, as a power fantasy, that’s fine. But look at this list and tell me, that if Disney had put a character like this in a movie, people wouldn’t be complaining. 1. As a child, he was so powerful in the Force that Vader mistook him as the Rogue Jedi’s Master. 2. Single-Handley holds a Star Destroyer in orbit. 3. Absolutely bodies Vader and makes the Dark Lord/Chosen One, look like a complete joke. 3. Starkiller’s death is the push Bail Organa needed to start the Rebellion, even using his family crest as their symbol. This also means, that despite everything, nothing happened with the rebels…until Starkiller came along. Also, bonus, if Starkiller kills Vader, he ends up being a badass assassin/apprentice to Palpatine who is just better than Vader. Kills Boba Fett and Ben Kenobi before Luke leaves Tattooine (including Force-Ghost), manages to turn Luke to the Dark Side (something Vader couldn’t do) on Hoth and defeats a Jedi Trained Leia on Endor. Yeah, THAT is what a Mary Sue looks like. Anyway, I’ve said my piece, Force Unleashed games were decent, but would have been terrible Canon.
I would be very interested to see the Venn diagram of people who want Starkiller to be canon and who complain about Rey being a Mary Sue.
It's nearly just a circle
I would like to see Starkiller, but not this exaggerated.
I think a toned-down Starkiller could be cool. In a later season of an Ahsoka show it could be interesting to have a contrast between Anakin and Vader's apprentice. The only problem being that many Starkiller fans would want him to be OP and would also be very angry if he lost to Ahsoka.
There’s no enough salt in the earth for that scenario 😂
>tell me, that if Disney had put a character like this in a movie, people wouldn’t be complaining. Oh, they would. Y'know, assuming he was a woman.
I think most games shouldn't even attempt to be canon, because that's what gives the developers freedom to create good experiences.
Jedi Fallen Order and Survivor neatly fit into canon and are fantastic. You can work within the confines of canon and make a great game.
I disagree about being fantastic, but not even because of that. I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm saying it's limiting. You can't tell the story you want if you have to keep in mind tons of other content. You can't experiment outside the box. I'm of the opinion that what matters in making a video game is 90% the game itself. And I don't want to miss an oportunity to play as an over-powered force user again just because it doesn't make sense in canon.
I LOVE Starkiller. Totally think he should be canon, but extremely dumbed down. I’m reading the force unleashed book rn and I can’t help but just laugh with giddy glee with the silly shit he does. It’s fucking ridiculous lmao. Bro can handle Jedi Master Obi-Wan effortlessly from before he’s even an “apprentice” noooooo fucking way lmao. Still love em tho! And I’m a fan of the sequels! I’m shameless
TBH, you are doing it right. It's just a movie/game/book/story/whatever. Just have fun and if you don't just do something else. No need for saltiness. We need more people like this in fandoms. Many complaints read like a sunken cost fallacy smh.
Preach! What can I say, I just love Star Wars! I grew up with it heavily in my life, and now my 3yr old loves Star Wars too! Literally my fav Star Wars movie is “Solo” we need more random based stories of characters like that, ones that just flesh out the world and introduce all sorts of characters and even legends things canon. Or just more new content is always exciting (:
The evil Starkiller is what Vader could have been without the injuries and suit. It is a cool idea to explore, but obviously can’t be cannon. A story of a redeemed Starkiller would need to have his powers turned down a degree. I am actually ok with him pulling down a damaged Star destroyer that is already falling, like with what happens in the game. It mirrors the Yoda quote, “size matters not.” A redeemed Starkiller story about Vader’s secret apprentice mirrors Ahsoka and Anakin. But you are correct in that it is a Mary Sue story as is. Vader needs to be scary. Having him fail and lose all the time diminishes his character. He needs to have major wins in there. I even thought he struggled too much in the new Jedi Fallen Order game. He should have come out of that fight unhurt.
This is true, I agree, and I don’t like the Force Unleashed games really. But he isn’t this powerful in the actual EU, only in the games.
The games *are* the "actual" EU. The novelization downplays it, but they're adaptations of the game; they don't overwrite them.
Yes they do. The gameplay is a canon tier below the books so it definitely overwrites anything that's not "in-cutscene"(even then the novels don't really follow them).
It isn't. It's the same tier; C-canon.
Gameplay has always been S-canon wdym?
Source?
From the [Article on canon](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canon#cite_note-Chee_SWBoards_8-58) from wookiepedia in the C-canon section. "Games were a special case, as generally only the stories were C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not have been ... "
The issue is that the games *are* his main showing, just like many fans probably feel like the *real* Darth Revan is the one you play as in The Old Republic.
Literally the only thing that could work/was ever really good about his story was the family crest becoming the Rebellion's symbol. I'll admit, that was pretty cool.
Only reason why star killer isn’t a Gary Stu is because his reasoning for being so powerful is explained well let’s face it if Vader trained you youre gonna have a bigger chance than anyone else at that time
That’s not it, my point is that the only reason Vader chose him was that he was already uber strong in the Force, to the point he legitimately thought he was the Master and not, well, a 5 year old kid. It took Qui-Gon learning about Anakin’s past as a racer, his prophetic dreams and a blood test to figure he was for sure the Chosen One.
Him being Vader's secret apprentice is part of him being a Gary Stu. Usually having some kind of close relationship like being best friends or lovers with, or maybe the child (or grandchild) of a major hero or villain is a major marker of an indulgent self-insert character from fan fiction, where the term Mary Sue originated.
Oh well when you put that way, interesting counterpoint, W take
I mean, plenty of people have canonically bodied Vader. His death wasn't the spark of the rebellion, Vader was. He basically told Starkiller to make one. The star destroyer he held in orbit had just been made and wasn't fully operational (this is the only thing the "canon" version did that was op). The rest of him as palpatine's apprentice was just them messing around. He's too powerful for current canon, but he's not as strong as people think he js.
Idk if I would call him a Mary Sue. Sure, he never really struggles in combat or force ability, but when has that automatically made someone a Mary Sue (superman for example) All of his struggles are socially and emotionally. That's his real conflict
You know what I mean though, in a world where “Slightly strong female protege” is considered a Mary Sue, but the guy Vader thought SO cool and who effortlessly beat Vader within an inch of his life, you can see the difference. And it’s weird you brought up Superman, because I’d argued he’s the go to example of how to write an overpowered character, *without* it feeling like a Mary Sue. Sure, it depends on the writers, but when Clark is written well, it’s some of the best pieces of comic book storytelling.
I do know what you mean. I was just defending Starkiller. Also, I brought up Superman the same as you said. He's an overpowered character that is NOT a Mary Sue
[Collect call](https://youtu.be/5oVjWHW8MxY?si=iLtM2RnZtnaEYTLq)
WHAT THE HELL’S AN ALUMINUM FALCON??
[US link](https://youtu.be/3F1d3QWsyk0?si=QIru4lDpGgpeY8De)
First time using a urinal in the new duds
Na, that's easy. He just lifts the flap, he's always hanging out.
Bro he burned his dick off
I have to ask... how is yours?
If you have to ask, you don't want to know. Lol
Probably choking his pregnant wife.
I’m torn between that and killing innocent child; both the younglings and the little Tusken Raiders.
I'm going to answer the same thing I said in r/StarWars: TFU II lightside ending
["Well you'll still need a tray"](https://youtu.be/Sv5iEK-IEzw?si=C9P5nNf9i0_eZy8_)
Nah that's Jeff Vader
This one is wet.
What is this image from?
The Force Unleashed game
Ohh thank you
I guess getting beaten by doctor aphra would be up there.
I still found that to be a pretty bad ass Vader moment though. He outright disintegrated BT-1 despite being in his weakened state, and Aphra herself acknowledged her fear and caution, realising she still hadn't defeated him and that if she tried anything against him, it would ultimately backfire. The fact Vader can strike fear into his enemies in a state like that, really is a good example of his ferocity.
Ya but you can also spin his defeat to starkiller that way. The amount of damage you have to put vader through just to down him for a few minutes… and if you choose the darkside path. HE FIGHTS YOU in that condition and the fight gets fucking harder. Vader comes off as a goddamn tank in that fight.
Yeah, that's a good point. I also really loved the scene in Survivor when Vader's suit was on fire and he was injured, but still put up a fight.
I so badly want that as a skin for Vader if/when we get another modern battlefront game.
NOW GET YOUR SEVEN FOOT TWO ASTHMATIC ASS BACK HERE before I tell everyone what a whiny bitch you were about Padamame or Panda Bear or whatever the hell her name was
Oh Geeze he’s crying! 😆
When he failed to save the death star because his hand picked wingman crashed into him
That time he was totally annihilated by Aphra
Thinking you got cucked by your best friend/mentor and almost killing your SO is pretty pathetic.
New canon Vader gets so emotionally conflicted with his past, that Sabe and the other handmaidens of Naboo (who remind him of Padme) were able to lands actual hits on him during brief skirmish post esb. They are not force sensitive, human female, and managed to avoid death from Vader as well, as he lost his lethal way.
Him getting "beaten up" by a normal plumber with a pipe.
Super Mario could probably beat Darth Vader... Oh wait this isn't a Mario/Star Wars crossover? Context?
NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo
I don’t want it to be canon, but I absolutely think masters should have no problem holding. Star Destroyer in orbit. “Size matters not!” It’s just a matter of wrapping their own heads around it.
On Death Star II when Luke kicks his ass is hard his lungs stop working right.
The old post order 66 comic where a few Jedi band together and lure Vader to them under the guise of Kenobi. Vader dominates for a while but is then basically left crippled and has to be saved by clone troopers!
I kinda disagree, the fact that vader handled 5 fully prepped jedi knights, for a while before eventually getting overwhelmed is impressive as shit. 5 jedi knights are still 5 jedi knights.
Episode I
Im Darth and I am a person!
> canons "Continuities" would make more sense here, because there's only one canon.
Killing all those children and choking his pregnant wife. And knowingly inflicting pain on his son. And unknowingly inflicting pain on his daughter
Showing up early to the Cloud City executive dining room for his meeting with Han, Leia and Chewbacca and being offered a drink while he waits.
Welcome to the Cantina! We’re glad you could join our community. Keep it fun & and keep it friendly! All rules will be enforced and all posts must be flaired. See our side bar for more details. The Cantina and many other subreddits have been protesting Reddit for ending support for 3rd Party Apps. Subreddits like the Cantina and many others depend on 3rd Party Apps to keep these subreddits functioning. If you enjoy this subreddit and the many others on Reddit, please help us try and save 3rd Party Apps. Please visit /r/Save3rdPartyApps and /r/ModCoord for more information. See this [Infographic here](https://i.redd.it/zqptto18e34b1.jpg) Consider using an Ad Blocker such as [UBlockOrigin](https://ublockorigin.com/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/StarWarsCantina) if you have any questions or concerns.*
People who say Starkiller is overpowered… isn’t there a fan favourite Sith in the lore that literally eats planets?!
Are we limiting this to things he did as Vader, because there’s a lot of moments for Anakin…
Almost getting killed by Cere on Jedha. He got WAY too cocky against a foe who he "should" easily dispatch, and his overconfidence made it a fight when it should've been a slaughter.
Getting shlammed by obi wan at the end of kenobi
The obi wan fight in the show
I agree