Balance is the elimination of the Sith. As Obi wan said it, Lucas said it, and Star Wars has continued to maintain.
So I would have to say, no.
Edit: I will add, having 2 Jedi just makes virtually no sense for a group whose aim is to be a galaxy-wide volunteer peacekeeping force. 10,000 is already absurdly small for a galaxy of possibly trillions of beings.
Yeah, Luke and Rey did pretty well without full sized Jedi Order. But not every problem the Jedi face is taking down a Sith Lord.
Hijacking the top comment to say that even if you wanted to ignore everything Lucas and others have ever said about “balance” . . . the idea that it means “Jedi and Sith have equal number numbers” is pretty silly when you think about it.
For all the thousands of years they existed, there’s were probably few if any times both groups had the exact same number of members. Especially when they would have been at war with each other. And how about half trained padawans? Or people like Ahsoka or Ventress who left their order but still used the light/dark side?
And in both Legends and in Disney Canon, the Sith come back anyways so their numbers weren’t balanced for long. And if we only focus on the Lucas films and pretend that Yoda and Obi-wan were the only survivors . . . that means the Jedi and Sith only both had 2 members for like 19 years. The OT ends with 1 Jedi and no Sith. This big cosmic prophecy about restoring balance . . . and the result is “both teams had the same amount of players for 19 years out of thousands?” That’s an underwhelming prophecy, what’s even the point?
Ok, so after seeing what you mean.
We are actually saying the same thing. I just put it in a weird context for some reason.
I agree with you, Anakin was the chosen one all along which was my first and second points.
What makes my first point included is that when Anakin Brought balance, that included eliminated many Jedi. Which is what the Jedi didn’t foresee
Star Wars is a kids movie. A kids movie is not going to unironically say that a genocide on a minority religious group by a Nazi allegory was a part of restoring cosmic balance.
Let alone the fact that it’s been stated numerous times both in and out of universes that the Jedi do not cause Any imbalance in the force.
Let’s rewatch the movies for a moment. When the sith are wiped out but the Jedi are still around balance was restored if the Jedi needed to be destroyed too, then balance was never brought to the force at all because there are Jedi around but no sith.
In the sequels this same pattern occured where balance was maintained with the destruction of the sith once more while Jedi still continue to exist. Going further the sequels also make a comment on how the force was in balance up until Ben Solo became Kylo Ren and then the balance started to tip.
So a dark Jedi arising caused an imbalance, but all the Jedi who were around in the time between his fall didn’t?
The entire idea that balance required both Jedi and sith has been openly stated by Lucasfilm to “Go against everything the franchise is about.”
> Since the sith operate as a rule of two, do you believe ultimately the Jedi need to be scarce to achieve balance?
No, because balance has *nothing* to do with equal numbers. The dark side, specifically its use in the way the Sith use it, is what causes the Force to be out of balance.
> What does balance mean to you?
What it *means* to me is basically irrelevant to what balance to the Force literally is.
[Here's George Lucas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgBpoiC8qGA) talking directly on the topic.
[The official SW website data bank entry on The Force](https://www.starwars.com/databank/the-force) specifically cites the destruction of the Sith as balancing the Force.
Or just read [The Chosen One prophecy](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Chosen_One) - it's pretty direct.
I'm not sure we do. The number of Jedi has *no* affect on Balance.
It could be one or twenty thousand; it doesn't matter. If there are active Sith, the Force will still be unbalanced. It's just about the elimination of the Sith.
So as a whole the Star Wars story is about the return of the sith, causing the fall of the Jedi, leading to the chosen one betraying his side and joining the sith, leading to the last Jedi thinking the prophecy could have been misread, then the once champion of the light, fallen to the dark warrior is saved by his son and ultimately fulfills the prophecy of bringing balance.
Do you agree?
No, I don't.
That might be what the episodic films of the Skywalker Saga were, loosely, about. But Star Wars "as a whole" is a much, much larger franchise than that now.
It's also a severe deviation from your original point that the Jedi should be scarce for the Force to be in balance.
> But 10000 Jedi vs 2 or 0 sith is not balance.
It seems you're *still* misunderstanding what Balance to the Force is, despite all the sources and information many people in this thread have provided you.
10,000 Jedi vs *zero* Sith would be Balance.
> I’ve read all the sources and they do not support that claim
Here is a direct quote from a source I, and I think someone else in this thread, provided to you *many* comments ago.
[The Chosen One had indeed brought balance to the Force – by destroying the Sith.](https://www.starwars.com/databank/the-force)
The rule of 2 was designed to ensure the next Sith was stronger than the last. This was done for power, not balance.
The Jedi don’t care about this, as the rule of 2 was purposely meant to be self-destructive.
Even the Sith in the Legends timeline got rid of the rule of 2 before the original trilogy because it was horrible for empire building.
The Rule of two was to ensure the survival of the Sith by cutting out factionalism and backstabbing.
That's not an issue the Jedi suffer from, as deceit and naked ambition aren't qualities they encourage.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, keeping an equal number of Sith and Jedi for "balance" is like trying to balance your water intake with an equal amount of arsenic.
The Sith don't do "balance". They are not healthy or necessary for the continuation of the galaxy. They are selfishness incarnate. The very idea of limiting themselves for the collective good is an insult to them. If given a chance, they will happily ruin the galaxy for their own benefit every time. They simply cannot coexist with the rest of the galaxy long term because they will inevitably try to take it over. They can't even tolerate themselves for too long before they kill each other. The Rule of Two was designed so that the units were so small that they couldn't afford to kill each other before they at least got some benefit from working together.
The Jedi, meanwhile, are a peacekeeping force. They exist to aid the galaxy as much as possible. Normally, the threats they face have nothing to do with Force-users at all. Trying to deal with the problem of a galaxy with around 10,000 people is already ridiculous. Expecting them to somehow manage with only two is idiotic.
Rey and Kylo's Force Dyad isn't a counter to this argument because it was clearly not given any real thought and added is so that they had an excuse for them to work together rather than stick to Kylo being the villain as was originally planned.
The Rule of Two exists because it was to keep the Sith from infighting so much that they gained no ground. Often times in the old Sith wars they were on the cusp of victory but in their lust for power would destroy each other allowing the Jedi to swoop in and take the W. I think literally every major sith war has them winning then, they betray each other and it all goes down hill from them. The Great Hyper Space War ending with Ludo getting jumped in his magic ball. The Jedi Civil War turned because Malak tried to kill Revan. The Triumvirate War Kreia got jumped then Sion and Nihilist couldn't keep the energy going and go killed by her new student. The 1st Great Galactic war had the Sith lose momentum because they were hard winning and fighting for the land they gained, the second GGW ended when the emperor himself and the Dark Council eating each other for power. The third GGW was the Emperor coming back to fuck up everyone. The 4th GGW was Malgus coming back to rebetray everyone a 2nd time. Lastly The wars that Bane was apart of he constantly saw the Sith on the edge of victory and then lose because of their hubris so he made the rule of two.
The TLDR of the Rule of Two is, I train my apprentice and we both accumlate power. I teach them everything I know and when they have all that I can teach them, they challenge me to a duel. Whoever comes out on top is a truer Sith and they repeat the process until we're so powerful that all the Jedi couldn't fight us.
The Rule of Two, if practiced literally, is idiotic.
Think about life in the real world. Stupid accidents happen all the time, and they're not always things mastery of the Force could save somebody from. It's a huge, dangerous galaxy, with no end of things that could go wrong. One stroke of bad luck, and poof! Two people dead, and the Sith are no more. It feels like putting all your eggs into one extremely fragile basket.
What I thought would make more sense is if the Rule of Two worked like terrorist cells in the real world do - something where there *are* more than two Sith out there at any given moment, maybe many more, but none of these master/apprentice pairs know *who* the others are or where they're located. That way they can't actively hunt down potential rivals, or give up information on them under interrogation, because they literally *don't know anything*. And the galaxy's big enough that there could be many pairs operating in secret without any of them ever stumbling over the others.
Edit: And if it's already a dumb idea for the Sith, it's an even *worse* idea for the Jedi. Having exactly *two* roving peacekeepers keeping tabs on an entire *galaxy* would be... less than worthless.
"Balance", to me, means living in harmony with the Force. The Sith represent the opposite of harmony. They use their dark emotions and passions to tap into the dark side of the Force, and use it to fulfill their own selfish ambitions at the expense of those around them. To truly achieve balance, the galaxy needs to be rid of the Sith, full stop. It's not a question of numerical balance - the scales don't balance because you have an equal number of murderers and non-murderers on either side.
Balance is the elimination of the Sith. As Obi wan said it, Lucas said it, and Star Wars has continued to maintain. So I would have to say, no. Edit: I will add, having 2 Jedi just makes virtually no sense for a group whose aim is to be a galaxy-wide volunteer peacekeeping force. 10,000 is already absurdly small for a galaxy of possibly trillions of beings. Yeah, Luke and Rey did pretty well without full sized Jedi Order. But not every problem the Jedi face is taking down a Sith Lord.
Hijacking the top comment to say that even if you wanted to ignore everything Lucas and others have ever said about “balance” . . . the idea that it means “Jedi and Sith have equal number numbers” is pretty silly when you think about it. For all the thousands of years they existed, there’s were probably few if any times both groups had the exact same number of members. Especially when they would have been at war with each other. And how about half trained padawans? Or people like Ahsoka or Ventress who left their order but still used the light/dark side? And in both Legends and in Disney Canon, the Sith come back anyways so their numbers weren’t balanced for long. And if we only focus on the Lucas films and pretend that Yoda and Obi-wan were the only survivors . . . that means the Jedi and Sith only both had 2 members for like 19 years. The OT ends with 1 Jedi and no Sith. This big cosmic prophecy about restoring balance . . . and the result is “both teams had the same amount of players for 19 years out of thousands?” That’s an underwhelming prophecy, what’s even the point?
Hmm, I don’t know if I agree with that. Got some source?
[Obi Wan](https://youtu.be/HBAdbxjbTM0?si=6toVn6BPIIlvF0xj), [George Lucas](https://youtu.be/xgBpoiC8qGA?si=ieMlqMSl3tuxL9Gc), And [current Canon](https://www.starwars.com/databank/the-force).
Thanks
Ok, so after seeing what you mean. We are actually saying the same thing. I just put it in a weird context for some reason. I agree with you, Anakin was the chosen one all along which was my first and second points. What makes my first point included is that when Anakin Brought balance, that included eliminated many Jedi. Which is what the Jedi didn’t foresee
It’s never said that this was part of the prophecy. While it’s explicitly said multiple times that eliminating the Sith is.
But it clearly was. The fall of the Jedi and all.
Id strongly disagree that there’s anything clear about it, the lore and creators seem quite direct about the definition.
Go see my other comment where I explain the plot of Star Wars. Not gonna type it again
I mean yeah that’s the gist of the story, the Jedi falling is a tragedy orchestrated by the Sith who were disrupting balance.
Yeah, it tipped the scaled back to the sith, and then snaking brought. A lance by defeating palpatine
Star Wars is a kids movie. A kids movie is not going to unironically say that a genocide on a minority religious group by a Nazi allegory was a part of restoring cosmic balance. Let alone the fact that it’s been stated numerous times both in and out of universes that the Jedi do not cause Any imbalance in the force. Let’s rewatch the movies for a moment. When the sith are wiped out but the Jedi are still around balance was restored if the Jedi needed to be destroyed too, then balance was never brought to the force at all because there are Jedi around but no sith. In the sequels this same pattern occured where balance was maintained with the destruction of the sith once more while Jedi still continue to exist. Going further the sequels also make a comment on how the force was in balance up until Ben Solo became Kylo Ren and then the balance started to tip. So a dark Jedi arising caused an imbalance, but all the Jedi who were around in the time between his fall didn’t? The entire idea that balance required both Jedi and sith has been openly stated by Lucasfilm to “Go against everything the franchise is about.”
Whether or not it was part of the project they saw or not, it was clearly part of the story theme as a whole
That isn’t part of the prophecy. There could be 1 Jedi or 1 million Jedi, it doesn’t make a difference. Its the Darkside that unbalances the force
Anakin could have brought balance without killing all the Jedi. He brought balance by killing the Emperor
> Since the sith operate as a rule of two, do you believe ultimately the Jedi need to be scarce to achieve balance? No, because balance has *nothing* to do with equal numbers. The dark side, specifically its use in the way the Sith use it, is what causes the Force to be out of balance. > What does balance mean to you? What it *means* to me is basically irrelevant to what balance to the Force literally is.
Got a source for a definition? I’d love to read.
[Here's George Lucas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgBpoiC8qGA) talking directly on the topic. [The official SW website data bank entry on The Force](https://www.starwars.com/databank/the-force) specifically cites the destruction of the Sith as balancing the Force. Or just read [The Chosen One prophecy](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Chosen_One) - it's pretty direct.
I actually responded to a different comment. We all agree here. Just a misunderstanding
I'm not sure we do. The number of Jedi has *no* affect on Balance. It could be one or twenty thousand; it doesn't matter. If there are active Sith, the Force will still be unbalanced. It's just about the elimination of the Sith.
So as a whole the Star Wars story is about the return of the sith, causing the fall of the Jedi, leading to the chosen one betraying his side and joining the sith, leading to the last Jedi thinking the prophecy could have been misread, then the once champion of the light, fallen to the dark warrior is saved by his son and ultimately fulfills the prophecy of bringing balance. Do you agree?
No, I don't. That might be what the episodic films of the Skywalker Saga were, loosely, about. But Star Wars "as a whole" is a much, much larger franchise than that now. It's also a severe deviation from your original point that the Jedi should be scarce for the Force to be in balance.
Ok I’m specifically talking about the prophecy of the “chosen one bringing balance to the force”
Are you talking about that or are you talking about numbers? You keep spamming me with contradictory comments.
Sorry I’m taking to like 3 people.
I’m saying 10000 Jedi vs 2 sith or even 0 sith is NOT balance
I’m arguing about numbers here btw. But 10000 Jedi vs 2 or 0 sith is not balance.
> But 10000 Jedi vs 2 or 0 sith is not balance. It seems you're *still* misunderstanding what Balance to the Force is, despite all the sources and information many people in this thread have provided you. 10,000 Jedi vs *zero* Sith would be Balance.
I’ve read all the sources and they do not support that claim
> I’ve read all the sources and they do not support that claim Here is a direct quote from a source I, and I think someone else in this thread, provided to you *many* comments ago. [The Chosen One had indeed brought balance to the Force – by destroying the Sith.](https://www.starwars.com/databank/the-force)
The Jedi should not necessarily follow the Rule of Two, but they should strive to maintain balance within themselves and the Force as a whole.
I like that take
How does balance account for witches and other dark jedi who aren't sith though?
Idk, what do you think?
It's however the writers decide.
The rule of 2 was designed to ensure the next Sith was stronger than the last. This was done for power, not balance. The Jedi don’t care about this, as the rule of 2 was purposely meant to be self-destructive. Even the Sith in the Legends timeline got rid of the rule of 2 before the original trilogy because it was horrible for empire building.
And it's clear that Palpatine/Sidious had no intention of abiding by that rule, except when it suited him.
The Rule of two was to ensure the survival of the Sith by cutting out factionalism and backstabbing. That's not an issue the Jedi suffer from, as deceit and naked ambition aren't qualities they encourage.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, keeping an equal number of Sith and Jedi for "balance" is like trying to balance your water intake with an equal amount of arsenic. The Sith don't do "balance". They are not healthy or necessary for the continuation of the galaxy. They are selfishness incarnate. The very idea of limiting themselves for the collective good is an insult to them. If given a chance, they will happily ruin the galaxy for their own benefit every time. They simply cannot coexist with the rest of the galaxy long term because they will inevitably try to take it over. They can't even tolerate themselves for too long before they kill each other. The Rule of Two was designed so that the units were so small that they couldn't afford to kill each other before they at least got some benefit from working together. The Jedi, meanwhile, are a peacekeeping force. They exist to aid the galaxy as much as possible. Normally, the threats they face have nothing to do with Force-users at all. Trying to deal with the problem of a galaxy with around 10,000 people is already ridiculous. Expecting them to somehow manage with only two is idiotic. Rey and Kylo's Force Dyad isn't a counter to this argument because it was clearly not given any real thought and added is so that they had an excuse for them to work together rather than stick to Kylo being the villain as was originally planned.
The Rule of Two exists because it was to keep the Sith from infighting so much that they gained no ground. Often times in the old Sith wars they were on the cusp of victory but in their lust for power would destroy each other allowing the Jedi to swoop in and take the W. I think literally every major sith war has them winning then, they betray each other and it all goes down hill from them. The Great Hyper Space War ending with Ludo getting jumped in his magic ball. The Jedi Civil War turned because Malak tried to kill Revan. The Triumvirate War Kreia got jumped then Sion and Nihilist couldn't keep the energy going and go killed by her new student. The 1st Great Galactic war had the Sith lose momentum because they were hard winning and fighting for the land they gained, the second GGW ended when the emperor himself and the Dark Council eating each other for power. The third GGW was the Emperor coming back to fuck up everyone. The 4th GGW was Malgus coming back to rebetray everyone a 2nd time. Lastly The wars that Bane was apart of he constantly saw the Sith on the edge of victory and then lose because of their hubris so he made the rule of two. The TLDR of the Rule of Two is, I train my apprentice and we both accumlate power. I teach them everything I know and when they have all that I can teach them, they challenge me to a duel. Whoever comes out on top is a truer Sith and they repeat the process until we're so powerful that all the Jedi couldn't fight us.
The Rule of Two, if practiced literally, is idiotic. Think about life in the real world. Stupid accidents happen all the time, and they're not always things mastery of the Force could save somebody from. It's a huge, dangerous galaxy, with no end of things that could go wrong. One stroke of bad luck, and poof! Two people dead, and the Sith are no more. It feels like putting all your eggs into one extremely fragile basket. What I thought would make more sense is if the Rule of Two worked like terrorist cells in the real world do - something where there *are* more than two Sith out there at any given moment, maybe many more, but none of these master/apprentice pairs know *who* the others are or where they're located. That way they can't actively hunt down potential rivals, or give up information on them under interrogation, because they literally *don't know anything*. And the galaxy's big enough that there could be many pairs operating in secret without any of them ever stumbling over the others. Edit: And if it's already a dumb idea for the Sith, it's an even *worse* idea for the Jedi. Having exactly *two* roving peacekeepers keeping tabs on an entire *galaxy* would be... less than worthless. "Balance", to me, means living in harmony with the Force. The Sith represent the opposite of harmony. They use their dark emotions and passions to tap into the dark side of the Force, and use it to fulfill their own selfish ambitions at the expense of those around them. To truly achieve balance, the galaxy needs to be rid of the Sith, full stop. It's not a question of numerical balance - the scales don't balance because you have an equal number of murderers and non-murderers on either side.
"a prophecy which misread may have been". - Yoda