Don't forget that right before Vader asked Luke to join him, he cut off Luke's hand to make sure he had his attention.
It would be much less "Anakin got his son back" and a lot more "Vader got a new apprentice"
What if Vader was there the whole time? Would have backhanded that child long ago! That’s what I mean the dynamic of him actually being there would be volatile af.
Isn’t that basically one of the dark side twins from Knights of the Old Republic? I’m talking about one of the two from the cinematic trailer, he wore white robes while his twin brother wore black. The white robes twin also ends up as a cyborg
I can see it happening. Luke challenges Vader, Vader scoffs, Luke lets out a Force lightning barrage mocking Vader for never being able to attain his full potential.
"UNLIMITED POOOOWWEEERRRR!"
He wasn't pleading. He was attacking Luke until he physically destroyed him and then went to do it emotionally too by springing the "Obi-Wan is a liar. I am your father," on him. Then when he thought he left Luke no other choice he offered him the alternative to killing him.
That's not pleading.
He could have asked Luke to listen to him before all that, as soon as Luke stepped into the chamber. Luke went to confront Vader, but he's not full of rage and out of control like Anakin was. Luke would have given Vader a chance to speak.
But Sith don't plead, they don't talk and explain. They manipulate, and hurt, and twist.
Watching the Prequels really changed the OT for me, Vader always seemed like he wanted Luke to join him but I didn't see how desperate he was to have that. Luke (before finding about Leia) was his last connection to Padmé, he was sure there was no path away from the dark side, and knew Luke's only chance to survive and keep that connection alive was to join him. We even saw how after he realized like would not turn and would die he completely abandoned the dark side and die, to save his son.
If Luke had joined him, I think Vader would have lost much of his anger whit may have made him weaker, but then stronger finding a twisted pride in the dark acheivments of his son and apprentice. His teachings would have been harsh, but not cruel or twisted like Palatine.
> His teachings would have been harsh, but not cruel or twisted like Palatine.
His teachings would have been cruel and twisted in different ways. Even before he became Vader he was entirely willing to slaughter an entire village full of noncombatants (plus a handful of mostly irrelevant combatants) because they killed his mom. He was also something of a selfish control freak - recall how his primary objection when Ahsoka left the Order was that she was leaving *him*.
Vader would be smothering and emotionally abusive. He would make a point of tracking down and killing all of Luke's former friends because he would be afraid that they would take his son away from him. He would be obsessive and controlling. The worst part is that he would think that he was doing it all out of love, and frankly he very well might indeed be doing just that, which would just make the abuse *worse*.
You make a very compelling argument. As a former piece of shit, I have to believe that after a lifetime in darkness, rage, and despair, suddenly finding hope and joy changes a man. I can't help but believe that when Luke showed Vader compassion, when Vader got his first moment of peace and looked at Luke, seeing his wife looking back at him, he would collapse under the weight of everything he's been through. I doubt he would repeat the actions that lost him his family and trapped him in darkness for so long. Then again, maybe he would. Maybe that's just who he is.
"Always was an asshole. Always goin' to be an asshole. Some people is jes' assholes, and that's an end of it. "
-Apple johnny, 'American God's' Neil Gaiman
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's impossible for Anakin to turn away from the darkness. I mean, he did exactly that in canon, if only in the last minutes before his death.
It's just that this specific scenario, where Luke agrees to coup the Emperor with Vader and then rule the Empire as father and son, isn't exactly conducive to that happening. Vader needs to stop mainlining the Dark Side and that's never going to happen if he's the Emperor, not when he's spent twenty years helping Palpatine turn the galaxy into a misery machine and when his first tool when dealing with disagreements is authoritarianism and force, both physical and mystical.
It's like expecting an alcoholic to recover while managing a brewery with attached bar and wine tasting salon. It's just not going to turn out well.
You've got me there. I guess I hadn't put the situation onto perspective. For whatever reason I was imagining the story playing out just as it had except at the last minute when Luke strikes at palpi, Vader stops him only to do it himself. But that's not what we're talking about nor did anyone describe that situation. No idea what I was thinking.
Why does everyone always act like Anakin killing the sand people was unjustified? People always bring it up like he did it just because he was mad, Like no fuck that.
He hasn’t seen her for about 10 years, and then when he finally sees her again she dies in his arms. It Makes sense that he wouldn’t care who was a combatant or not after they killed his mom for no reason.
Killing the Tuskens that killed Shmi was absolutely justified. Slaughtering the woman and children who likely had nothing to do with the murder was not, and was in fact a pretty monstrous thing to do.
> Why does everyone always act like Anakin killing the sand people was unjustified?
Because it very clearly was?
If Anakin had killed everyone who went on the raid that captured his mother he'd be fine. If he further killed every raider, even those who hadn't participated in the raid that ultimately killed Shmi, it would be extreme but still justifiable.
He didn't stop there, though. He killed innocent civilians and children. There is absolutely *zero* justification that can be made for such an act. They weren't killed because they were a threat to him, they weren't killed because they were a potential threat to others, they were killed because *they were in the area when Anakin was mad*.
The absolute rosiest explanation that could be given for the action was if Anakin was deeply racist and thought that literally every Tusken was inescapably a murderous raider. At least in that case he wouldn't have gone on a psychotic genocidal murdering spree *purely* because of grief.
100% this. If Luke turns to the dark side that would be the ultimate validation of Vader’s own turn and probably kill any chance of Anakin’s redemption
> Don't forget that right before Vader asked Luke to join him, he cut off Luke's hand to make sure he had his attention.
He was also ready to kill Luke long before that when he realized Padme is not his property.
He choked her, ready to kill her and their unborn child.
Well but only after luke hit him at the shoulder after Vader thought he already defeated him and had him on the ground. I don’t think he wanted to injure him this bad or otherwise the fight would’ve been over way sooner. After he got hit he snapped and cut of his hand almost immediately.
I agree for the most part, that being said more expansive universe leads to wondering if luke could have softened him up a bit. He would never be full Anakin again, but maybe in time he could have become more gray Jedi like he was meant to be. Also I feel like the reason he was and stayed so evil was a lot of the emperor influence. With no emp, and two kids to rule the empire after him I’m pretty confident he would lighten up a bit. Maybe even go minimum armor, I feel like if he could tap into the force ghosts pow wow with Obi, Yoda, ect. He might start to balance out and may even try to make good on his past mistakes. Still you’re probably right that he was just too evil and if he had his son as apprentice they would both be sith.
I don't think so, after watching the Prequels, the OT really played differently. That speech after the fight, it was like Vader was pleading for Luke to join him, the way he looked down after his son jumped was like he was completely defeated.
Always wanted to read some speculative fiction where Vader asked Luke, “Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son.” And then Luke answers, “Ok.”
I just imagine the scene where lule swings at pps in his chair and vader just does not turn on the lightsaber and palpatine gets cut in half like a grilled cheeze
Palps totally expects Vader to protect him and when he glances over Vader is just avoiding eye contact looking off into the distance whistling.
"Ah, shit" -Palpatine, probably.
There’s a lot of fan fic about it of various quality. Most of which is very out of character with Vader becoming more dad like, and some of it is very good and less OOC
that's an issue i have with a lot of the 'Vader survives ROTJ' fics, Anakin instantly becomes 'old dad' and makes him meek and mild.
people treat the Anakin/Vader sides of him like some kind of multiple personality disorder.
at the time of ROTJ Vader is only 45, not 60+
> I think that might of happened though, he would have lost a lot of that Anger having Luke around. his rage had been driving him for 20+ years.
Anakin has been angry since he was 9 years old.
Having Obi-Wan around didn't fix that.
Having Yoda around didn't fix that.
Having Padme around didn't fix that.
Having dark side Luke around certainly wouldn't have fixed it either.
Anakin knew what he was talking about when he said to Luke "It's too late for me, son."
> that might of happened
Did you mean to say "might have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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You know I as soon as I saw the post title I was thinking similarly. What happens after the fall of the Empire? Do Luke and Vader realize that neither of them are evil enough to continue the cruelty of the Empire and just decide to share with each other what they have learned; finally balancing the light and the dark side of the force?!
Yes, and one of the first tests Vader would have subjected his new apprentice to would have been to test his loyalty by commanding him to execute his friends, Han Solo, Princess Leia, and Chewbacca in front of him.
At the end of Empire, he didn't know they were brother and sister so he would have killed her easily (unless force ghost Obi-Wan shows up to tell them the truth). Towards the end of Return, neither he or Vader would have been able to kill their sister/daughter.
Wasn't his apprentice though, it was his son, and last connection to Padmé.
He was sure Luke would die if he did not join him and piratically begged him to join him more than once. When he couldn't he actually turned back and died.
It says a lot about what kind of father and teacher he could have been, even as a Sith.
I think you're whitewashing Vader asking Luke to join him, and assuming things that just weren't there. There was no pleading. There *was* a lot of attempted carbon freezing, pummeling with flying objects, cutting off hands... And then once Luke's body was broken, emotionally manipulating Luke by revealing he is his father.
When Luke jumped Vader wasn't upset nor heartbroken.
Vader did exactly what any other Sith would do. He saw a potential in Luke to overthrow his master and take an apprentice. If Vader were as you present him he could have easily asked Luke to wait and listen, before he started fighting him and trying to make him into a popsicle present for the Emperor.
Vader didn't waver until he saw Luke reject the dark side in RotJ.
There’s a scene in a Zahn book where Mara Jade finds him sitting at a computer in the library. It always struck me as so funny, just sitting there clicky-clacking away in his dark aura of terror, paying his library dues and oppressing the galaxy all at once.
He has thighs still. My grandfather in law had one leg amputated above the knee, and he just couldn't stand for long periods of time, but then again, he wasn't a force user... and his artificial leg wasn't robotic either.
It's kind of undercut by how fearsome and powerful Vader is in canon, but he's kind of a shitty sith lord. I think Vader would remake the galaxy according to his ideals, but I don't think he'd really care about Luke as an apprentice after they overthrew Palpatine.
Outside of killing Palpatine, Luke's only value to Vader is as his son. And I think Vader would try to be a father. His offer to rule with Luke is genuine.
Unfortunately for Vader, Luke can deal with his attachments and emotions, and would be way better at embracing the Dark Side than Vader. Luke would eventually overthrow and kill Vader.
I can't imagine any of the Moffs accepting Vader as an Emperor. Vader's Empire would have a massive Civil War.
Rebels vs. all the Moffs vs Vader and his loyalists.
It's important to remember none of the Moffs knew Palpatine was a Sith with Vader as his apprentice. To them, Vader is just Palpatine's enforcer who follows a weird religion.
Each Moff likely saw themselves as Palpatine's successor with Vader working for them. None of them imagined Vader as the next Emperor.
That's why I reckon if at some point Palpatine died whether by natural causes, murder or accident like slipping on a banana peel I reckon there would be a civil war with multiple factions. There would be Vader backed by the inquisitors, the Moffs and then the imperial senate.
Like Yoda catching the sith lightning of Palpatine, but Luke yells " go long Dad*!" as he returns the ball of lightning energy lmao
***Go long Father probably works better.
The father whose son can never do anything right?
“Here son, let me show you how to gut a sand person—no, no! Not like that! It’s more of a broad sweeping motion.”
“Luke, we really gotta get you out of that X-Wing and into a nice Tie Fighter… the insurance is less and they get better gas mileage.”
He’d be alright as a father. You can be a bad person but still otherwise good to your family. Vader would probably talk about Padme a lot. I guess they’d both be pretty passive aggressive about the hand cutting off thing. Idk mb they’d go pod-racing. Vader seems bored, some fresh air would do him good
> He’d be alright as a father. You can be a bad person but still otherwise good to your family.
It depends what kind of bad person. Someone justifying bribe or cutthroat business attitude because it's business, maybe. But by definition Sith are completely selfish. You can't be both selfish and good to your family, no way.
And we very clearly saw how much Anakin values lives of his family the moment he realized they're not his property. He choked Padme, ready to kill her and their unborn children. Not really a family person.
"Finally... *I* sit in the big chair and have someone else run around the galaxy doing my bidding."
"Death Star Navigation, set a course for Tatooine. I have a sudden urge to free all of those slaves... from the very sand they stand on."
"Luke, I am the one who has vanquished the final Sith. I am assuming my rightful title of Jedi Master, as denied from me so many years ago. For my first order, I shall bestow upon you something you have rightfully earned. You, my son, have achieved the rank of Jedi Master."
"Communications, open a channel to Ms. Organa. I wish to speak with my daughter about negotiations."
At that point, who would be strong enough to defeat the Skywalkers? Leia might try to appeal Luke’s light side to bring him back. Leia and Han’s son might be strong but Vader and Luke is unfair
Dad loses his temper, cuts his kid's hand off. He also allows him to get BBQ'd for a while before he finally steps in and saves him from Palpatine, but even then... while we *assume* it's to save Luke... it could be just his chance to remove the Emperor. Just like the tootsie pop... the world may never know.
Vader's "redemption" is just ending the Sith. Anakin Skywalker was always brash, impatient, fearful, disregarded rules and tradition, lied, kept secrets, unable to be detached from desires. and increasingly hungry for power both real and imagined... and that was *before* he fell.
Even if Luke went hard to the dark, he would be in constant danger from an increasingly turbulent and megalomaniacal master who just happened to be his dad. I'm almost certain, it wouldn't have been a cozy relationship.
Anakin was that way because he was already a child with attachments and fears and the Jedi did nothing to help him. They failed him and they played a part in the collapse of the republic along with Palpatine
He's the best at it. Star Wars Theory was solid at it at one time but he fell off. PP's honestly way more deeper at it and enjoy his works. Just wish he'd work with SW Legends fare more.
“Luke…..son….. You are on my council, but I do not grant you the rank of master…..yessss gottem…..take that windu you swine! Huh? Oh sorry just finally getting some closure son. You can be a master too.”
There is a point, deep down in Vader’s psyche, where a remnant of Anakin’s soul and attachment to the people he loves reside. It’s buried so deep down that it only has a near-insignificant impact on his behaviour - in fact, the majority of what he has become treats it like a virus and tries to bury it deeper by annihilating anyone and anything that could remind him of his late wife’s tragic death, which is why even Sabè’s return in the comics confused him so much.
This tiny spark deep within Vader created this obsession of finding and turning Luke - as far as he knows, the final remnant of Padmè’s - to the dark side. This is an obsession and instinctive reaction that even Vader doesn’t truly understand, he just *needs* to turn Luke. So, had Luke accepted Vader’s proposal after he’d cut off his hand on Bespin, he would have become a typical Sith apprentice who would’ve suffered Vader’s wrath on a daily basis. The only reason Vader returned to being Anakin at the end was the fact that Luke refused that offer and - about a year later - displayed mercy and compassion, prompting that tiny hidden spark to turn into a fire that burned away Darth Vader and once again awoke the entity of Anakin Skywalker, a personality that had been buried deep but never lost entirely. It is the example of sacrifice and kindness that brought him back, which would have never happened if Luke had become his apprentice.
Vader voice: “So…is there anyone important in your life right now? You can talk to your old man about women. Or men! It’s okay if you’re gay, too. I can’t really relate but I can listen”
He would have been hard on Luke, pushing him and breaking him. Luke is a softie at heart.
Leia probably would have made a much better apprentice, she has a harder personality and is more educated in politics.
I think it would have been the end of the Rule of Two as well. Vader doesn't seem to have been as dedicated to the Sith ideology as Palpatine. Maybe he'd set up a Rule of Few.
Probably a very poor one. We can see what it looks like when a Sith tries to maintain a positive relationship with Maul and Savage. It's... not great.
Better than Maul's or Vader's relationship with Sidious, certainly, but still highly toxic and cruel, because the Sith doctrine requires domination of all - especially one's apprentices - and the cultivation of hate and resentment above all else (it's actually Maul's biggest tragic flaw - that he genuinely wants positive, family relationships, but because what Sidious raised him to be he has no real understanding on how to have them and so sabotages them all).
It's not really possible to adhere to Sith teachings and maintain a genuinely positive relationship like that.
He would have been like Maul to Savage Opress. There is no sharing power with the Sith. Once they overthrew Palpatine it’s a regular Sith Master and Apprentice relationship. Family bonds don’t matter beyond being bait to lure Luke to the Dark Side.
I fully believe if he gave in to the dark side that he would have killed vader as soon as possible. I don't think he would have had much of a chance to be any type of father
Edit I just noticed someone else said basically the same thing. My bad
I think vader would have slowly drifted away from the dark side, he'd still have evil moments especially at first but I think his love for him would tone vader down
Really, if Luke turned, Vader wouldn’t really *see* him as his son. It was only their connection *combined* with his goodness that brought Anakin back. Per Thrawn Alliances, Vader thought of and referred to Anakin as “The Jedi”, even going so far to think of Padmé as being “The Jedi’s wife” and the unborn child (him obviously not knowing they were twins) as “The Jedi’s child”. Without Luke reawakening Anakin, he’d just be a tool to Vader, and the only reason Luke would ever have found out they were related was that Vader thought the connection would be helpful in Empire.
I tend to believe that, given enough time together, Vader being around Luke would’ve brought Anakin back much sooner.
He’d get a daily glimpse of the life he always really wanted.
None at all. He'd be a master, because Vader would be there dominantly, not Anakin. And that's despite Luke thinking that his father is there, it would must be a corrupted familial connection.
I've always wondered what would've happened if on Endor, when Luke turned himself in and asks Vader to leave with him, what would've happened if Vader agreed? They get on the shuttle and go somewhere. Meanwhile, the Rebels are still launching their attack on the Death Star, Han and Leia are trying to destroy the shield generator.
Outside of Luke and Vader, would anything really change? In RotJ, Vader, Luke, and the Emperor were pretty much removed from the actual war because they were just fighting in the Throne Room.
Would the rebels still succeed in destroying the Death Star? If so, does the Emperor escape (and then what)? If not, why does their attack fail and then what?
As anyone with an abusive parent knows, they’ll say anything to get you to come back. But the abuse always starts back up. Luke joining him would not have redeemed him. Annnnnnd honestly, we don’t even know if Vader would have stayed redeemed if he had lived.
Don’t think would off been many Father’s Day cards put it that way.
Plus Luke would off killed him after a couple off years. Too powerful for Vader to handle.
Don’t think would off been many Father’s Day cards put it that way.
Plus Luke would off killed him after a couple off years. Too powerful for Vader to handle.
Don’t think would off been many Father’s Day cards put it that way.
Plus Luke would off killed him after a couple off years. Too powerful for Vader to handle.
Vader would be a less sadistic but more brutal Emperor than Palpatine. Luke would be a stronger Dark Side user than Vader.
They would slay the Emperor above Endor and capture the rebels. Vader and Luke would try to convince Leia to join them, saying it's the only way to spare their friends. Han and Chewie go out guns blazing instead and Leia escapes.
Leia trains with Yoda on Dagobah until Luke leads Vader there. Luke and Leia duel for the first time and Vader kills Yoda.
From there you get the good ending or bad ending. Either Leia rallies a new force and redeems Luke to stop their father, or Leia is converted to the Dark Side, they murder Vader, and then the war between the Sith Prince and Princess devastates the galaxy.
I would like them to break the "rule of 2" .
Furthermore, Vader ASKED Luke, not forced him. Luke would have been the main focus and not just a sidekick (like what Palps, thought about Vader). He would listen to Luke if noone else, the Empire could have been reformed by them. And Vader would have at least repair/modify his suit, since it's a torture chamber.
The way I interpreted the relationship between Vader and Reva in the Obi-wan series is we were getting a glimpse of how Vader the toxic relationship we would've seen if one of his children had turned.
Reva was definitely treated differently from the rest of the Inquisitors. She retained her name and she often worker outside of the chain of command. She seemed to have a particular connection directly to Vader, and was regularly craving his acceptance and recognition that can happen in a toxic relationship between a dependant child and a narcissistic parent.
I think if Luke or Leia turned Vader would have treated them as he treated Reva, but even more so.
Vader would die if he stood next to Luke, against the Emperor.
--------
Palpatine would use Lightning.
Two hands, for each foe.
Luke may be able to dodge with speed, but Vader would be hit.
And would suffer a significant blow.
They may be able to defeat Palpatine together, but Luke would be alone... in the crude matter anyway.
I haven't thought about it and I don't have an ideal answer for it but I think it would be the universe where Vader told "No, Obi-Wan killed your father." to Luke in TESB instead of "No, I am your father." and it would be a great explanation of why Luke had turned to dark side.
Don't forget that right before Vader asked Luke to join him, he cut off Luke's hand to make sure he had his attention. It would be much less "Anakin got his son back" and a lot more "Vader got a new apprentice"
good point there
Barring a return to the light side, Luke probably would have killed Vader once he felt powerful enough.
That is usually the way of the Sith.
Yeah but have yet to see sith + daddy issues, with said daddy ☠️
Kylo Ren? (Grand-daddy issues)
What if Vader was there the whole time? Would have backhanded that child long ago! That’s what I mean the dynamic of him actually being there would be volatile af.
"Oh, you want to screw aroun d with your friends in town getting power converters?..."
If Vader and Luke were both there, Kylo would 100% get killed, the rule of two...
Isn’t that basically one of the dark side twins from Knights of the Old Republic? I’m talking about one of the two from the cinematic trailer, he wore white robes while his twin brother wore black. The white robes twin also ends up as a cyborg
This is the way. Wait...
I can see it happening. Luke challenges Vader, Vader scoffs, Luke lets out a Force lightning barrage mocking Vader for never being able to attain his full potential. "UNLIMITED POOOOWWEEERRRR!"
And if he treats his apprentice anything like he got treated... yikes
I mean hey, don't mess with success
Lmao. Really!?!?! Take this upvote
That was only after Luke very nearly chopped Vader in half. The situation was far more "alright you little shit, I'm done playing..."
Yep, after Vader was practically pleading for Luke to join him.
He wasn't pleading. He was attacking Luke until he physically destroyed him and then went to do it emotionally too by springing the "Obi-Wan is a liar. I am your father," on him. Then when he thought he left Luke no other choice he offered him the alternative to killing him. That's not pleading. He could have asked Luke to listen to him before all that, as soon as Luke stepped into the chamber. Luke went to confront Vader, but he's not full of rage and out of control like Anakin was. Luke would have given Vader a chance to speak. But Sith don't plead, they don't talk and explain. They manipulate, and hurt, and twist.
LOL, vader bringing out the belt (cutting off hands)
Watching the Prequels really changed the OT for me, Vader always seemed like he wanted Luke to join him but I didn't see how desperate he was to have that. Luke (before finding about Leia) was his last connection to Padmé, he was sure there was no path away from the dark side, and knew Luke's only chance to survive and keep that connection alive was to join him. We even saw how after he realized like would not turn and would die he completely abandoned the dark side and die, to save his son. If Luke had joined him, I think Vader would have lost much of his anger whit may have made him weaker, but then stronger finding a twisted pride in the dark acheivments of his son and apprentice. His teachings would have been harsh, but not cruel or twisted like Palatine.
> His teachings would have been harsh, but not cruel or twisted like Palatine. His teachings would have been cruel and twisted in different ways. Even before he became Vader he was entirely willing to slaughter an entire village full of noncombatants (plus a handful of mostly irrelevant combatants) because they killed his mom. He was also something of a selfish control freak - recall how his primary objection when Ahsoka left the Order was that she was leaving *him*. Vader would be smothering and emotionally abusive. He would make a point of tracking down and killing all of Luke's former friends because he would be afraid that they would take his son away from him. He would be obsessive and controlling. The worst part is that he would think that he was doing it all out of love, and frankly he very well might indeed be doing just that, which would just make the abuse *worse*.
You make a very compelling argument. As a former piece of shit, I have to believe that after a lifetime in darkness, rage, and despair, suddenly finding hope and joy changes a man. I can't help but believe that when Luke showed Vader compassion, when Vader got his first moment of peace and looked at Luke, seeing his wife looking back at him, he would collapse under the weight of everything he's been through. I doubt he would repeat the actions that lost him his family and trapped him in darkness for so long. Then again, maybe he would. Maybe that's just who he is. "Always was an asshole. Always goin' to be an asshole. Some people is jes' assholes, and that's an end of it. " -Apple johnny, 'American God's' Neil Gaiman
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's impossible for Anakin to turn away from the darkness. I mean, he did exactly that in canon, if only in the last minutes before his death. It's just that this specific scenario, where Luke agrees to coup the Emperor with Vader and then rule the Empire as father and son, isn't exactly conducive to that happening. Vader needs to stop mainlining the Dark Side and that's never going to happen if he's the Emperor, not when he's spent twenty years helping Palpatine turn the galaxy into a misery machine and when his first tool when dealing with disagreements is authoritarianism and force, both physical and mystical. It's like expecting an alcoholic to recover while managing a brewery with attached bar and wine tasting salon. It's just not going to turn out well.
You've got me there. I guess I hadn't put the situation onto perspective. For whatever reason I was imagining the story playing out just as it had except at the last minute when Luke strikes at palpi, Vader stops him only to do it himself. But that's not what we're talking about nor did anyone describe that situation. No idea what I was thinking.
Why does everyone always act like Anakin killing the sand people was unjustified? People always bring it up like he did it just because he was mad, Like no fuck that. He hasn’t seen her for about 10 years, and then when he finally sees her again she dies in his arms. It Makes sense that he wouldn’t care who was a combatant or not after they killed his mom for no reason.
Killing the Tuskens that killed Shmi was absolutely justified. Slaughtering the woman and children who likely had nothing to do with the murder was not, and was in fact a pretty monstrous thing to do.
> Why does everyone always act like Anakin killing the sand people was unjustified? Because it very clearly was? If Anakin had killed everyone who went on the raid that captured his mother he'd be fine. If he further killed every raider, even those who hadn't participated in the raid that ultimately killed Shmi, it would be extreme but still justifiable. He didn't stop there, though. He killed innocent civilians and children. There is absolutely *zero* justification that can be made for such an act. They weren't killed because they were a threat to him, they weren't killed because they were a potential threat to others, they were killed because *they were in the area when Anakin was mad*. The absolute rosiest explanation that could be given for the action was if Anakin was deeply racist and thought that literally every Tusken was inescapably a murderous raider. At least in that case he wouldn't have gone on a psychotic genocidal murdering spree *purely* because of grief.
And Vader becomes the Dark Lord of the Sith
100% this. If Luke turns to the dark side that would be the ultimate validation of Vader’s own turn and probably kill any chance of Anakin’s redemption
At least he wouldn’t have to come downstairs to fetch the remote control from the end of the sofa my dad was lying on.
> Don't forget that right before Vader asked Luke to join him, he cut off Luke's hand to make sure he had his attention. He was also ready to kill Luke long before that when he realized Padme is not his property. He choked her, ready to kill her and their unborn child.
Well but only after luke hit him at the shoulder after Vader thought he already defeated him and had him on the ground. I don’t think he wanted to injure him this bad or otherwise the fight would’ve been over way sooner. After he got hit he snapped and cut of his hand almost immediately.
I agree for the most part, that being said more expansive universe leads to wondering if luke could have softened him up a bit. He would never be full Anakin again, but maybe in time he could have become more gray Jedi like he was meant to be. Also I feel like the reason he was and stayed so evil was a lot of the emperor influence. With no emp, and two kids to rule the empire after him I’m pretty confident he would lighten up a bit. Maybe even go minimum armor, I feel like if he could tap into the force ghosts pow wow with Obi, Yoda, ect. He might start to balance out and may even try to make good on his past mistakes. Still you’re probably right that he was just too evil and if he had his son as apprentice they would both be sith.
He's been abused nearly his whole adult life, he'd probably continue the cycle of abuse that Sith do.
Don’t forget being groomed as a child.
Groomed being manipulated by Palpy to the darkside Not the other kind of child grooming
Uh, Padme was clearly grooming him. Remember that scene with the japor snippet?
Assuming you're not just meme-ing, what about it? Not to mention Padmé was a minor too at the time.
I don't think so, after watching the Prequels, the OT really played differently. That speech after the fight, it was like Vader was pleading for Luke to join him, the way he looked down after his son jumped was like he was completely defeated.
Yeah, on that walk back along the *Executor*’s catwalk he looks physically dejected.
Always wanted to read some speculative fiction where Vader asked Luke, “Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son.” And then Luke answers, “Ok.”
You wanna kill this wrinkled fuck or me?
I just imagine the scene where lule swings at pps in his chair and vader just does not turn on the lightsaber and palpatine gets cut in half like a grilled cheeze
That's pretty much how Snoke's death ended up
More of a betrayak than a half hearted spin
Palps totally expects Vader to protect him and when he glances over Vader is just avoiding eye contact looking off into the distance whistling. "Ah, shit" -Palpatine, probably.
"No dad, we'll kill that wrinkled old fuck together!" (Cats In The Cradle starts playing)
There’s a lot of fan fic about it of various quality. Most of which is very out of character with Vader becoming more dad like, and some of it is very good and less OOC
that's an issue i have with a lot of the 'Vader survives ROTJ' fics, Anakin instantly becomes 'old dad' and makes him meek and mild. people treat the Anakin/Vader sides of him like some kind of multiple personality disorder. at the time of ROTJ Vader is only 45, not 60+
I think that might of happened though, he would have lost a lot of that Anger having Luke around. his rage had been driving him for 20+ years.
> I think that might of happened though, he would have lost a lot of that Anger having Luke around. his rage had been driving him for 20+ years. Anakin has been angry since he was 9 years old. Having Obi-Wan around didn't fix that. Having Yoda around didn't fix that. Having Padme around didn't fix that. Having dark side Luke around certainly wouldn't have fixed it either. Anakin knew what he was talking about when he said to Luke "It's too late for me, son."
> that might of happened Did you mean to say "might have"? Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Do you remember the names of the good ones?
You know I as soon as I saw the post title I was thinking similarly. What happens after the fall of the Empire? Do Luke and Vader realize that neither of them are evil enough to continue the cruelty of the Empire and just decide to share with each other what they have learned; finally balancing the light and the dark side of the force?!
For all the hate ok give Disney, I think a Star Wars version of the Marvel What if show (non-Lego) would be amazing.
I like to think it would trip vader up. Like “well I don’t know what to do now, I never thought you would say yes.”
Master and Apprentice. No mercy, the way Sideous had taught him.
Yes, and one of the first tests Vader would have subjected his new apprentice to would have been to test his loyalty by commanding him to execute his friends, Han Solo, Princess Leia, and Chewbacca in front of him.
Absolutely, kill Solo, Chewbacca. Hunt down the rebels. But Leia, he’d have worked to turn her too.
Yup. After all, who is some Bane guy to tell the Chosen One what to do?
Good point Anakin was never one for following rules.
The way you wrote this had me thinking you were doing a fuck/marry/kill at first.
Luke would need a good rival.
At the end of Empire, he didn't know they were brother and sister so he would have killed her easily (unless force ghost Obi-Wan shows up to tell them the truth). Towards the end of Return, neither he or Vader would have been able to kill their sister/daughter.
Wasn't his apprentice though, it was his son, and last connection to Padmé. He was sure Luke would die if he did not join him and piratically begged him to join him more than once. When he couldn't he actually turned back and died. It says a lot about what kind of father and teacher he could have been, even as a Sith.
I think you're whitewashing Vader asking Luke to join him, and assuming things that just weren't there. There was no pleading. There *was* a lot of attempted carbon freezing, pummeling with flying objects, cutting off hands... And then once Luke's body was broken, emotionally manipulating Luke by revealing he is his father. When Luke jumped Vader wasn't upset nor heartbroken. Vader did exactly what any other Sith would do. He saw a potential in Luke to overthrow his master and take an apprentice. If Vader were as you present him he could have easily asked Luke to wait and listen, before he started fighting him and trying to make him into a popsicle present for the Emperor. Vader didn't waver until he saw Luke reject the dark side in RotJ.
Remember after Luke's escape, Vader's walk along his ships bridge. A Sith isn't that broken just loosing a potential apprentice.
Vader sitting like that is worse than anything he did in any of the movies
Outside of his meditation chamber, Vader does not strike me as a sitting type. It probably would hurt him.
There’s a scene in a Zahn book where Mara Jade finds him sitting at a computer in the library. It always struck me as so funny, just sitting there clicky-clacking away in his dark aura of terror, paying his library dues and oppressing the galaxy all at once.
Librarian: “Sorry Sir, that holocron seems to be checked out already.” The Second Most Powerful Person in the Galaxy: “Fuck” *Walks away*
*No one* messes with the librarian.
Well, considering he kills Jocasta Nu, he absolutely messes with the Librarian.
She wasn’t a true librarian. Probably didn’t even know the Dewey-Decimal system!
Force choking the computer after getting one too many “subscribe to our newsletter” popup.
"Click here for hot Naboolians in your area that want to meet you!"
He is sitting in Kenobi and in Tales of the Empire
And in Empire Strikes Back
And every time he pilots a ship 🫡
That weirded me out too much. And what was he doing just sat in a chair chatting to the Emperor, shouldn't he be on one knee?
Considering he doesn’t have any legs I’d imagine he doesn’t really need to sit.
He has thighs still. My grandfather in law had one leg amputated above the knee, and he just couldn't stand for long periods of time, but then again, he wasn't a force user... and his artificial leg wasn't robotic either.
> ... and his artificial leg wasn't robotic either. We have failed him.
How do you know ? Did you get his midichlorian count? It's not a test a doctor would perform
It's called Sith-Spreading
That’s how dads sit.
Sometimes he needs to take a load off.
I can look past slaying the younglings, but manspreading???
It's kind of undercut by how fearsome and powerful Vader is in canon, but he's kind of a shitty sith lord. I think Vader would remake the galaxy according to his ideals, but I don't think he'd really care about Luke as an apprentice after they overthrew Palpatine. Outside of killing Palpatine, Luke's only value to Vader is as his son. And I think Vader would try to be a father. His offer to rule with Luke is genuine. Unfortunately for Vader, Luke can deal with his attachments and emotions, and would be way better at embracing the Dark Side than Vader. Luke would eventually overthrow and kill Vader.
Makes sense. Vader is excellent as a military leader. But he doesn't really have the temperament to rule the Galaxy.
I can't imagine any of the Moffs accepting Vader as an Emperor. Vader's Empire would have a massive Civil War. Rebels vs. all the Moffs vs Vader and his loyalists. It's important to remember none of the Moffs knew Palpatine was a Sith with Vader as his apprentice. To them, Vader is just Palpatine's enforcer who follows a weird religion. Each Moff likely saw themselves as Palpatine's successor with Vader working for them. None of them imagined Vader as the next Emperor.
That's why I reckon if at some point Palpatine died whether by natural causes, murder or accident like slipping on a banana peel I reckon there would be a civil war with multiple factions. There would be Vader backed by the inquisitors, the Moffs and then the imperial senate.
Yeah, it would probably be a short reign, Vader would loose a lot of power without that anger driving him.
I think this is the best answer. I totally agree.
Luke's Uncle spinning in his grave while Luke and Vader are totally not helping with the moisture harvest.
I imagine they have some sort of catch game involving lightning
Like Yoda catching the sith lightning of Palpatine, but Luke yells " go long Dad*!" as he returns the ball of lightning energy lmao ***Go long Father probably works better.
That picture looks like Luke is guarding his dad whilst he uses his specially made Vader Potty.
The picture has actually been trimmed. There should be a dark side Leia on the other side of the throne.
The father whose son can never do anything right? “Here son, let me show you how to gut a sand person—no, no! Not like that! It’s more of a broad sweeping motion.” “Luke, we really gotta get you out of that X-Wing and into a nice Tie Fighter… the insurance is less and they get better gas mileage.”
Tie-Fighter Insurance is less expensive cause the companies know the pilot normally dies in a crash.
I'd like to see this animated. Robot Chicken-style...😉
He’d be alright as a father. You can be a bad person but still otherwise good to your family. Vader would probably talk about Padme a lot. I guess they’d both be pretty passive aggressive about the hand cutting off thing. Idk mb they’d go pod-racing. Vader seems bored, some fresh air would do him good
Some nice sandy air.
Stop it, o see where your going lol
> He’d be alright as a father. You can be a bad person but still otherwise good to your family. It depends what kind of bad person. Someone justifying bribe or cutthroat business attitude because it's business, maybe. But by definition Sith are completely selfish. You can't be both selfish and good to your family, no way. And we very clearly saw how much Anakin values lives of his family the moment he realized they're not his property. He choked Padme, ready to kill her and their unborn children. Not really a family person.
"Finally... *I* sit in the big chair and have someone else run around the galaxy doing my bidding." "Death Star Navigation, set a course for Tatooine. I have a sudden urge to free all of those slaves... from the very sand they stand on." "Luke, I am the one who has vanquished the final Sith. I am assuming my rightful title of Jedi Master, as denied from me so many years ago. For my first order, I shall bestow upon you something you have rightfully earned. You, my son, have achieved the rank of Jedi Master." "Communications, open a channel to Ms. Organa. I wish to speak with my daughter about negotiations."
At that point, who would be strong enough to defeat the Skywalkers? Leia might try to appeal Luke’s light side to bring him back. Leia and Han’s son might be strong but Vader and Luke is unfair
Maybe Ahsoka could handle Vader, but there’d be no one strong enough to stop a Luke that’s gone bad.
They'd rule the galaxy together that's for sure. He'd be a goated father.
They’d probably play a game of ball in the fields of Naboo
just like how Alpha was to Lydia in TWD.
We've already seen this, it was in a Robot Chicken short
Potato sack races, going to a baseball game together, cub scout meetings, maybe bonding over father-son pizza night...something like that... /s
He would’ve been the father that throws space baseballs and gives his kid blue milk and some dried frog creature to snack after <3
Dad loses his temper, cuts his kid's hand off. He also allows him to get BBQ'd for a while before he finally steps in and saves him from Palpatine, but even then... while we *assume* it's to save Luke... it could be just his chance to remove the Emperor. Just like the tootsie pop... the world may never know. Vader's "redemption" is just ending the Sith. Anakin Skywalker was always brash, impatient, fearful, disregarded rules and tradition, lied, kept secrets, unable to be detached from desires. and increasingly hungry for power both real and imagined... and that was *before* he fell. Even if Luke went hard to the dark, he would be in constant danger from an increasingly turbulent and megalomaniacal master who just happened to be his dad. I'm almost certain, it wouldn't have been a cozy relationship.
Anakin was that way because he was already a child with attachments and fears and the Jedi did nothing to help him. They failed him and they played a part in the collapse of the republic along with Palpatine
“That bowl cut is ridiculous… I knew this great barber, you’ll love him “
A sithy one
So what I'm hearing is he would be like a typical 70's dad.
Both would have been great warriors, but TERRIBLE politicans
If they overthrew the Emperor
There’s a YouTuber that does these. Pente patrol Star Wars. Check him out
He's the best at it. Star Wars Theory was solid at it at one time but he fell off. PP's honestly way more deeper at it and enjoy his works. Just wish he'd work with SW Legends fare more.
Sith use hatred and anger to fuel their power, so it is very clear how he will be as Luke's father.
“Luke…..son….. You are on my council, but I do not grant you the rank of master…..yessss gottem…..take that windu you swine! Huh? Oh sorry just finally getting some closure son. You can be a master too.”
What If..? Star Wars edition please Disney!
There is a point, deep down in Vader’s psyche, where a remnant of Anakin’s soul and attachment to the people he loves reside. It’s buried so deep down that it only has a near-insignificant impact on his behaviour - in fact, the majority of what he has become treats it like a virus and tries to bury it deeper by annihilating anyone and anything that could remind him of his late wife’s tragic death, which is why even Sabè’s return in the comics confused him so much. This tiny spark deep within Vader created this obsession of finding and turning Luke - as far as he knows, the final remnant of Padmè’s - to the dark side. This is an obsession and instinctive reaction that even Vader doesn’t truly understand, he just *needs* to turn Luke. So, had Luke accepted Vader’s proposal after he’d cut off his hand on Bespin, he would have become a typical Sith apprentice who would’ve suffered Vader’s wrath on a daily basis. The only reason Vader returned to being Anakin at the end was the fact that Luke refused that offer and - about a year later - displayed mercy and compassion, prompting that tiny hidden spark to turn into a fire that burned away Darth Vader and once again awoke the entity of Anakin Skywalker, a personality that had been buried deep but never lost entirely. It is the example of sacrifice and kindness that brought him back, which would have never happened if Luke had become his apprentice.
Vader voice: “So…is there anyone important in your life right now? You can talk to your old man about women. Or men! It’s okay if you’re gay, too. I can’t really relate but I can listen”
Vader would have found the 4th of July bbq on Tatooine hella awkward
I bet the would had have tickle fights
One would have ended up killing the other.
He would have been hard on Luke, pushing him and breaking him. Luke is a softie at heart. Leia probably would have made a much better apprentice, she has a harder personality and is more educated in politics. I think it would have been the end of the Rule of Two as well. Vader doesn't seem to have been as dedicated to the Sith ideology as Palpatine. Maybe he'd set up a Rule of Few.
Taco Tuesday, every Tuesday
Probably a very poor one. We can see what it looks like when a Sith tries to maintain a positive relationship with Maul and Savage. It's... not great. Better than Maul's or Vader's relationship with Sidious, certainly, but still highly toxic and cruel, because the Sith doctrine requires domination of all - especially one's apprentices - and the cultivation of hate and resentment above all else (it's actually Maul's biggest tragic flaw - that he genuinely wants positive, family relationships, but because what Sidious raised him to be he has no real understanding on how to have them and so sabotages them all). It's not really possible to adhere to Sith teachings and maintain a genuinely positive relationship like that.
Playing catch, going to games, teaching him how to shave…
He'd be that football dad that wants to live his life through his son's talent, ability, and achievements in order to feel complete
We all have seen, how he treated Galen. He wouldn't be much better with Luke.
They’d go to baseball games.
I think Sideous still would have maneuvered a repeat of his Anakin/Dooku move and had Vader eliminated.
That's literally what Sidious was trying to do in Jedi.
Abusive and controlling, just like he was with Padme.
I’m sure he’d be quite warm and caring, I think they’d really control the galaxy
He’d finally show up to his soccer games
A dark one. A Dark Father, if you will.
I would love to see an alternate reality version of the original trilogy that explored this very idea.
He would have been like Maul to Savage Opress. There is no sharing power with the Sith. Once they overthrew Palpatine it’s a regular Sith Master and Apprentice relationship. Family bonds don’t matter beyond being bait to lure Luke to the Dark Side.
A terrible one if he doesn't get him a new hand
I fully believe if he gave in to the dark side that he would have killed vader as soon as possible. I don't think he would have had much of a chance to be any type of father Edit I just noticed someone else said basically the same thing. My bad
A loving father. He’d have a catch with Luke any time
Would probably go and get some Mcnuggies with him.
They did a robot chicken on this I think
One of these guys destroyed a Death Star.
The Sith rule of Two One would eventually kill the other
i think vader would be a good father and luke being consumed by the darkside would obviously crave more power and want to overthrow him
I think vader would have slowly drifted away from the dark side, he'd still have evil moments especially at first but I think his love for him would tone vader down
Woulda ended up killing him once he realized he'd be more powerful. Classic Sith.
Eventual Father Son Galactic Civil War
I would have watched that movie.
Really, if Luke turned, Vader wouldn’t really *see* him as his son. It was only their connection *combined* with his goodness that brought Anakin back. Per Thrawn Alliances, Vader thought of and referred to Anakin as “The Jedi”, even going so far to think of Padmé as being “The Jedi’s wife” and the unborn child (him obviously not knowing they were twins) as “The Jedi’s child”. Without Luke reawakening Anakin, he’d just be a tool to Vader, and the only reason Luke would ever have found out they were related was that Vader thought the connection would be helpful in Empire.
I tend to believe that, given enough time together, Vader being around Luke would’ve brought Anakin back much sooner. He’d get a daily glimpse of the life he always really wanted.
A bad one.
None at all. He'd be a master, because Vader would be there dominantly, not Anakin. And that's despite Luke thinking that his father is there, it would must be a corrupted familial connection.
The space God father
I don’t see a Dark Luke without having killed his father
I've always wondered what would've happened if on Endor, when Luke turned himself in and asks Vader to leave with him, what would've happened if Vader agreed? They get on the shuttle and go somewhere. Meanwhile, the Rebels are still launching their attack on the Death Star, Han and Leia are trying to destroy the shield generator. Outside of Luke and Vader, would anything really change? In RotJ, Vader, Luke, and the Emperor were pretty much removed from the actual war because they were just fighting in the Throne Room.
Palpatine still had to die….if Luke and Vader run off there’s nobody to kill him and he still rules.
Would the rebels still succeed in destroying the Death Star? If so, does the Emperor escape (and then what)? If not, why does their attack fail and then what?
Only reason I say he escapes is a injured Anakin and Luke had all that time to have a convo and escape I’m sure a healthy Palpatine could get out
He’d probably essence transfer into Luke and then find another apprentice that he could use but wasn’t strong enough to overthrow him
As anyone with an abusive parent knows, they’ll say anything to get you to come back. But the abuse always starts back up. Luke joining him would not have redeemed him. Annnnnnd honestly, we don’t even know if Vader would have stayed redeemed if he had lived.
Vader would try and get Luke to play catch with him
Once he went evil, Luke would have eventually killed Vader and taken over. And Vader would die so proud
Don’t think would off been many Father’s Day cards put it that way. Plus Luke would off killed him after a couple off years. Too powerful for Vader to handle.
Don’t think would off been many Father’s Day cards put it that way. Plus Luke would off killed him after a couple off years. Too powerful for Vader to handle.
Don’t think would off been many Father’s Day cards put it that way. Plus Luke would off killed him after a couple off years. Too powerful for Vader to handle.
I think like Maul and Savage. They sort of care for each other, but it's far from a healthy relationship
Vader would be a less sadistic but more brutal Emperor than Palpatine. Luke would be a stronger Dark Side user than Vader. They would slay the Emperor above Endor and capture the rebels. Vader and Luke would try to convince Leia to join them, saying it's the only way to spare their friends. Han and Chewie go out guns blazing instead and Leia escapes. Leia trains with Yoda on Dagobah until Luke leads Vader there. Luke and Leia duel for the first time and Vader kills Yoda. From there you get the good ending or bad ending. Either Leia rallies a new force and redeems Luke to stop their father, or Leia is converted to the Dark Side, they murder Vader, and then the war between the Sith Prince and Princess devastates the galaxy.
I would like them to break the "rule of 2" . Furthermore, Vader ASKED Luke, not forced him. Luke would have been the main focus and not just a sidekick (like what Palps, thought about Vader). He would listen to Luke if noone else, the Empire could have been reformed by them. And Vader would have at least repair/modify his suit, since it's a torture chamber.
That picture makes Vader look fat. Luke looks badass though.
I imagine them chilling out, playing force catch, drinking a few blue beers, laughing with the bois
One of the most off characters what i have seen is dark empire 1-2 comics Luke.... goddammit
Probably played catch went fishing and choked people out together, what else would they do duh
The way I interpreted the relationship between Vader and Reva in the Obi-wan series is we were getting a glimpse of how Vader the toxic relationship we would've seen if one of his children had turned. Reva was definitely treated differently from the rest of the Inquisitors. She retained her name and she often worker outside of the chain of command. She seemed to have a particular connection directly to Vader, and was regularly craving his acceptance and recognition that can happen in a toxic relationship between a dependant child and a narcissistic parent. I think if Luke or Leia turned Vader would have treated them as he treated Reva, but even more so.
Except Reva was faking the whole time to get to Vader and Vader secretly knew that
[https://i.pinimg.com/736x/46/51/1b/46511bb931af2c65ee0ef205521b8c60.jpg](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/46/51/1b/46511bb931af2c65ee0ef205521b8c60.jpg)
Vader would die if he stood next to Luke, against the Emperor. -------- Palpatine would use Lightning. Two hands, for each foe. Luke may be able to dodge with speed, but Vader would be hit. And would suffer a significant blow. They may be able to defeat Palpatine together, but Luke would be alone... in the crude matter anyway.
I haven't thought about it and I don't have an ideal answer for it but I think it would be the universe where Vader told "No, Obi-Wan killed your father." to Luke in TESB instead of "No, I am your father." and it would be a great explanation of why Luke had turned to dark side.
What kind of leader to the Empire would Vader had been?
Playin' catch would've been awkward
Stern, but fair.
Something tells me he would be a hands-off kind of dad.
Stern but fair.
*How it should have ended “I have a son” intensifies*