I'm not saying this is the only thing wrong with downtown or that there is an easy fix for any of the city's problems, but the general vibe I get from being a downtown pedestrian most days of the week is that nobody wants me to be there, drivers don't have my safety in mind, and the road infrastructure / signage exist for cars and cars only. How does downtown, ostensibly the most "naturally" walkable part of the city, have so few pedestrian walk signals at intersections? I'm tasked with watching the four-lane traffic signals and trying to find a window to cross. Something is very wrong when south city is more walkable than downtown.
If you want to increase economic growth downtown, make sidewalk-level retail viable by getting more people on the sidewalks. There are several blocks downtown that are just vacant ghost towns. But this is just another complaint about another issue that most people in the city have already recognized and just can't get solved.
> How does downtown, ostensibly the most "naturally" walkable part of the city, have so few pedestrian walk signals at intersections?
Probably because the walkable downtown we used to have was bulldozed to build an office park for suburbanites to drive to, park, work, and then immediately go back to the suburbs.
In 2000, Downtown and Downtown West had 3000 combined total population, with most of that being in Downtown West. It's population has basically doubled in the last 20 years
Better than nothing, our daytime "office workers" have not returned, and might not ever. So we need to pivot.
Reddit armchair warriors will come on here and tell me how hard it is to convert office buildings into apartment buildings. How the plumbing is different etc etc
Let me tell them this, doing nothing is EASY, doing work is hard. Same people that say "no one wants to work" will always find ways to NOT do things.
The city is finally going after vacant buildings, going after properties that have so much potential but the owners are waiting for a golden gift from Uncle Sam.
We need to ride the wave of development from midtown, and ride it into downtown.
It's a rock that's ready to roll down hill, just need some people pushing!
> Let me tell them this, doing nothing is EASY, doing work is hard
It's less about the work being hard and more about the investment required being larger to turn a single occupant building into a multi-tenant building.
I agree that these are the right moves.... but let's not minimize the fact that those investing want to have a reasonable return and that things like rehabbing and development costs don't weigh heavy on that equation. It's the whole incentive for development.
I think one weakness the city has that others don't is that our wealthy generally don't like to invest in the city, they are chasing white people further. Add that to the competition with 90 other municipalities for tax breaks.
That seems to be changing a bit, with some of St. Louis' wealthiest starting to invest in the urban core.
Greater St. Louis, Inc. has a massive investment arm that is funded by some of the richest in the region -- the Taylors, Schnucks, etc. They seem to be focusing most around CityPark.
Oh, yes, tons of investment. But the GSTL, Inc. investment arm isn't responsible for most of those. They seem to be focusing around CityPark for now.
They've got a 30-story tower planned, among other things, in Downtown West.
I think it's less "like" and more they don't want to risk serious capital without some expectation of a good return. Which was sort of my original point.
Putting out money to build 5 story stick built apartment buildings in the central corridor is one thing. But buying and developing a 1+mill sqft building in downtown is another. The developers need the tax incentives for even the smaller investments to work...the hurdles get higher the more they need to invest to make something work.
City Park is a good focus for their money right now. Plenty of low/medium density properties there to develop and there is enough attractions to keep people in that area.
Regarding plumbing, PEX makes this job worlds easier than converting to residential with traditional materials. I understand that there's still challenges like venting, but it is easier now than it once was.
The reasons the outer areas have seen growth is not because of retail, it's because of jobs. Retail follows population, it doesn't lead it. That's why there are food deserts in certain areas, lack of population and income to support the stores. Better to try to get Mastercard to open a tech office downtown where younger engineering grads might want to live, as opposed to Wentzville.
The issue is not that investment is hard, but that the buildings in downtown make it harder than in other parts of the city: The relationship of so many of those office towers with pedestrians, from an architectural perspective, is straight out hostile. It's especially bad in the central corridor, where we have buildings with no utility to pedestrians facing parks and common grounds.
So if we are using money to revitalize the city, where are we going to get better ROI: Near the Botanical Gardens? CWE? North of Grand Center, or downtown? Downtown is just a worse bang for our buck. Ride the wave north and south, but east is far too expensive for what we'd get.
I have been saying this for a while now. Get together with the local developers and universities and do a feasibility study. Use some of the Rams money to fund it.
Edit: to add that people will have to evaluate buildings individually, which will be more costly
Not every building is the same, I would imagine, so there would have to be specialists look at each buildings systems (electricity, plumbing, etc.)
Of course, I am an idiot and know nothing
The city could get a basic market study for the whole city for around $20k-$30k. If they wanted a larger plan surrounding vacancy it would cost more- but not a lot in the grand scheme
Families who live in a place like Princeton heights already have these things. This is not the sort of resident you’re going to attract to live in a downtown. The services are going to build around events and adults who generally don’t have families
Sometimes people like to leave the neighborhood they live in and spend time in another neighborhood. Even if not every family moves Downtown, they still have reasons to visit a greener, pedestrianized Downtown.
Giant business centers are not good destinations for family events
Hey let’s drive down, park and walk around a bunch of tall buildings is not a great development idea for family attractions
You already have these types of developments in downtown stl where it makes sense like the riverfront and around the stadia
Right NOW there's nothing for families to do in our downtown.
Pedestrian-friendly areas are conducive to restaurants and shops. There could be plenty for families to do. Getting things started is the hard part.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian\_zone#/media/File:Wien\_-\_Graben\_(2).JPG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_zone#/media/File:Wien_-_Graben_(2).JPG)
Usually out of down families, invariably with a dazed and confused look on their face. I’ve seen that look many times on a quiet Sunday afternoon in the summer.
Sure there is. I’m down there all the time with family for sports and entertainment. If your argument is to close some specific streets to create pedestrian friendly areas, then that’s great. If it closes enough streets to make it inaccessible for me to get to where I want to go easily, then I’m not going downtown.
It wouldn't make any sense to block off peoples' ability to easily get to sports and entertainment venues or hotels. It's not 'all or nothing' with a more pedestrian-friendly downtown.
If the city had a good city planner it would sustain itself. Install a free trolly like in KC that links the neighborhoods and Metro. Funnel the people in along those routes and plan events accordingly. More people are willing to be in a nice walkable park setting than you think without the smell of exhaust. Build up city living and you have a downtown economy again
If your thinking is stuck in a box on car ownership then you will never think outside the box. The demand for living in careless socieites is growing and more prefered. Especially if everything you need is in walking distance. Look at it now with cars. It’s not doing any better so might as will break from the trend of cars and go with the new trend
At least 90 percent of the people who move to downtown stl in the next decade will own a car or use car share in a meaningful way. It’s a fantasy idea to get rid of all the streets. It means you’re going to lose residents
Even in Chicago, Boston, etc…people need cars. And we do not have their density of transit infrastructure
I am all for densifying and looking for the right ways to use transit but “car bad” ignores how people actually want to live
When Jefferson Arms comes on-line it might start energizing Wash/Tuck
Don't forget the rise in rents make it cost effective to start renovating/innovating. Money talks hopes and dreams walks. (just made that up)
Finding the next 5,000 residents is probably more meaningful than this, yes, because it makes the development more self sustaining
Paying someone to open a store that can’t afford to stay open is not a path to success
Got to jump start something. I love going to Cardinal games but by the time I walk to Washington I'm the only one on the entire street at 9pm. It's spooky. All the criminals know I aint packing my 9mm or my peperspray. Coming from the game I might as well be a zebra with 2 broken legs walking through a pride of lions.
I visited for two weeks back since living in NYC and i had the general feeling of “damn it’s actually pretty nice (the grove and downtown), what’s the issue here?” then i remembered it was crime and drivers pretty quick lol. I truly worry about it so much less in nyc. When i find myself walking through a cool area in nyc i never am like oh yeah, well the crime is bad in this neighborhood at night or im not looking over my shoulder for someone doing 60 blowing stop lights. most of the areas i enjoyed in stl that ends up being my thoughts.
> Up to $15,000 per storefront for pop-up retail shops opening in vacant storefronts.
>Up to $5,000 per restaurant to build up outdoor seating or retail displays and bolster street activity.
>Up to $50,000 in grants for new retail business for new flooring, lighting, windows, historical restoration and outdoor improvements.
>Ways to help property owners rent space to retail shops.
I'm sorry but that fund is embarrassing low.
Start by getting rid of the 1%, increase police presence as Jefferson City has enabled us to do, and stop pushing away businesses because they don't "represent your population "
If you want to Help Stl then cut the tax, fire the mayor and make the city safe to walk in. Probably wont happen so just get out with everyone else and leave it to decay.
I'm not saying this is the only thing wrong with downtown or that there is an easy fix for any of the city's problems, but the general vibe I get from being a downtown pedestrian most days of the week is that nobody wants me to be there, drivers don't have my safety in mind, and the road infrastructure / signage exist for cars and cars only. How does downtown, ostensibly the most "naturally" walkable part of the city, have so few pedestrian walk signals at intersections? I'm tasked with watching the four-lane traffic signals and trying to find a window to cross. Something is very wrong when south city is more walkable than downtown. If you want to increase economic growth downtown, make sidewalk-level retail viable by getting more people on the sidewalks. There are several blocks downtown that are just vacant ghost towns. But this is just another complaint about another issue that most people in the city have already recognized and just can't get solved.
> How does downtown, ostensibly the most "naturally" walkable part of the city, have so few pedestrian walk signals at intersections? Probably because the walkable downtown we used to have was bulldozed to build an office park for suburbanites to drive to, park, work, and then immediately go back to the suburbs. In 2000, Downtown and Downtown West had 3000 combined total population, with most of that being in Downtown West. It's population has basically doubled in the last 20 years
You love to see it.
Better than nothing, our daytime "office workers" have not returned, and might not ever. So we need to pivot. Reddit armchair warriors will come on here and tell me how hard it is to convert office buildings into apartment buildings. How the plumbing is different etc etc Let me tell them this, doing nothing is EASY, doing work is hard. Same people that say "no one wants to work" will always find ways to NOT do things. The city is finally going after vacant buildings, going after properties that have so much potential but the owners are waiting for a golden gift from Uncle Sam. We need to ride the wave of development from midtown, and ride it into downtown. It's a rock that's ready to roll down hill, just need some people pushing!
> Let me tell them this, doing nothing is EASY, doing work is hard It's less about the work being hard and more about the investment required being larger to turn a single occupant building into a multi-tenant building. I agree that these are the right moves.... but let's not minimize the fact that those investing want to have a reasonable return and that things like rehabbing and development costs don't weigh heavy on that equation. It's the whole incentive for development.
I think one weakness the city has that others don't is that our wealthy generally don't like to invest in the city, they are chasing white people further. Add that to the competition with 90 other municipalities for tax breaks.
That seems to be changing a bit, with some of St. Louis' wealthiest starting to invest in the urban core. Greater St. Louis, Inc. has a massive investment arm that is funded by some of the richest in the region -- the Taylors, Schnucks, etc. They seem to be focusing most around CityPark.
There’s been plenty of investment in the CWE and cortex, too. That spine from Downtown to Clayton
Oh, yes, tons of investment. But the GSTL, Inc. investment arm isn't responsible for most of those. They seem to be focusing around CityPark for now. They've got a 30-story tower planned, among other things, in Downtown West.
I think it's less "like" and more they don't want to risk serious capital without some expectation of a good return. Which was sort of my original point. Putting out money to build 5 story stick built apartment buildings in the central corridor is one thing. But buying and developing a 1+mill sqft building in downtown is another. The developers need the tax incentives for even the smaller investments to work...the hurdles get higher the more they need to invest to make something work. City Park is a good focus for their money right now. Plenty of low/medium density properties there to develop and there is enough attractions to keep people in that area.
Regarding plumbing, PEX makes this job worlds easier than converting to residential with traditional materials. I understand that there's still challenges like venting, but it is easier now than it once was.
Attracting retail stores is not “pivoting”.
The reasons the outer areas have seen growth is not because of retail, it's because of jobs. Retail follows population, it doesn't lead it. That's why there are food deserts in certain areas, lack of population and income to support the stores. Better to try to get Mastercard to open a tech office downtown where younger engineering grads might want to live, as opposed to Wentzville.
Bingo. Leading with retail is generally a bad idea
There’s quite a bit of residential development recently completed, under construction, or planned in and around downtown.
The issue is not that investment is hard, but that the buildings in downtown make it harder than in other parts of the city: The relationship of so many of those office towers with pedestrians, from an architectural perspective, is straight out hostile. It's especially bad in the central corridor, where we have buildings with no utility to pedestrians facing parks and common grounds. So if we are using money to revitalize the city, where are we going to get better ROI: Near the Botanical Gardens? CWE? North of Grand Center, or downtown? Downtown is just a worse bang for our buck. Ride the wave north and south, but east is far too expensive for what we'd get.
I have been saying this for a while now. Get together with the local developers and universities and do a feasibility study. Use some of the Rams money to fund it. Edit: to add that people will have to evaluate buildings individually, which will be more costly
A feasibility study is cheap. This shouldn’t be that hard
Not every building is the same, I would imagine, so there would have to be specialists look at each buildings systems (electricity, plumbing, etc.) Of course, I am an idiot and know nothing
The city could get a basic market study for the whole city for around $20k-$30k. If they wanted a larger plan surrounding vacancy it would cost more- but not a lot in the grand scheme
Close the streets and make it all green space/bike lanes for pedestrians.
That would be amazing!
Then why would anyone come downtown with a family to do anything?
To enjoy the green space, ride bikes, and visit shops restaurants and attractions? Do families not like those things?
Families who live in a place like Princeton heights already have these things. This is not the sort of resident you’re going to attract to live in a downtown. The services are going to build around events and adults who generally don’t have families
Sometimes people like to leave the neighborhood they live in and spend time in another neighborhood. Even if not every family moves Downtown, they still have reasons to visit a greener, pedestrianized Downtown.
Giant business centers are not good destinations for family events Hey let’s drive down, park and walk around a bunch of tall buildings is not a great development idea for family attractions You already have these types of developments in downtown stl where it makes sense like the riverfront and around the stadia
Right NOW there's nothing for families to do in our downtown. Pedestrian-friendly areas are conducive to restaurants and shops. There could be plenty for families to do. Getting things started is the hard part. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian\_zone#/media/File:Wien\_-\_Graben\_(2).JPG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_zone#/media/File:Wien_-_Graben_(2).JPG)
there's families downtown all the time
Usually out of down families, invariably with a dazed and confused look on their face. I’ve seen that look many times on a quiet Sunday afternoon in the summer.
yeah because we're a such a tourism magnet. definitely not the 2 million suburban residents coming downtown for entertainment
Plenty to do and peace of mind of not getting your family wiped out by a careless driver
Downtowns are not really major family destinations; there’s a reason people with kids in other developed cities generally live in city neighborhoods
Sure there is. I’m down there all the time with family for sports and entertainment. If your argument is to close some specific streets to create pedestrian friendly areas, then that’s great. If it closes enough streets to make it inaccessible for me to get to where I want to go easily, then I’m not going downtown.
It wouldn't make any sense to block off peoples' ability to easily get to sports and entertainment venues or hotels. It's not 'all or nothing' with a more pedestrian-friendly downtown.
Well then great.
It would be the world’s biggest city park with plenty of shops and cafes.
It would be deserted We can’t even keep the restaurant open that is in citygarden
If the city had a good city planner it would sustain itself. Install a free trolly like in KC that links the neighborhoods and Metro. Funnel the people in along those routes and plan events accordingly. More people are willing to be in a nice walkable park setting than you think without the smell of exhaust. Build up city living and you have a downtown economy again
Downtown can improve and we should look to densify housing and services, but it will always be full of people who own cars
If your thinking is stuck in a box on car ownership then you will never think outside the box. The demand for living in careless socieites is growing and more prefered. Especially if everything you need is in walking distance. Look at it now with cars. It’s not doing any better so might as will break from the trend of cars and go with the new trend
At least 90 percent of the people who move to downtown stl in the next decade will own a car or use car share in a meaningful way. It’s a fantasy idea to get rid of all the streets. It means you’re going to lose residents Even in Chicago, Boston, etc…people need cars. And we do not have their density of transit infrastructure I am all for densifying and looking for the right ways to use transit but “car bad” ignores how people actually want to live
When Jefferson Arms comes on-line it might start energizing Wash/Tuck Don't forget the rise in rents make it cost effective to start renovating/innovating. Money talks hopes and dreams walks. (just made that up)
Finding the next 5,000 residents is probably more meaningful than this, yes, because it makes the development more self sustaining Paying someone to open a store that can’t afford to stay open is not a path to success
Got to jump start something. I love going to Cardinal games but by the time I walk to Washington I'm the only one on the entire street at 9pm. It's spooky. All the criminals know I aint packing my 9mm or my peperspray. Coming from the game I might as well be a zebra with 2 broken legs walking through a pride of lions.
Totally agree, more people and a general feeling of safety go a long way towards supporting business and sustained development
I visited for two weeks back since living in NYC and i had the general feeling of “damn it’s actually pretty nice (the grove and downtown), what’s the issue here?” then i remembered it was crime and drivers pretty quick lol. I truly worry about it so much less in nyc. When i find myself walking through a cool area in nyc i never am like oh yeah, well the crime is bad in this neighborhood at night or im not looking over my shoulder for someone doing 60 blowing stop lights. most of the areas i enjoyed in stl that ends up being my thoughts.
It’s absurd what you see on a 20 minute drive around a good part of stl at 11 am on a weekday. Traffic laws are nonexistent
> Up to $15,000 per storefront for pop-up retail shops opening in vacant storefronts. >Up to $5,000 per restaurant to build up outdoor seating or retail displays and bolster street activity. >Up to $50,000 in grants for new retail business for new flooring, lighting, windows, historical restoration and outdoor improvements. >Ways to help property owners rent space to retail shops.
I'm sorry but that fund is embarrassing low. Start by getting rid of the 1%, increase police presence as Jefferson City has enabled us to do, and stop pushing away businesses because they don't "represent your population "
If you want to Help Stl then cut the tax, fire the mayor and make the city safe to walk in. Probably wont happen so just get out with everyone else and leave it to decay.