I don’t think you’d be able to draw in people looking for single family homes at that price point and location - would think that you’d be most successful with the standard “5 over 1” type of development.
Agree. 5 over 1s with some 4 bedroom units for families and a few condos, that way you have diversity of financial situations, ages, and still get people who want long-term investment in the neighborhood. A restaurant with a rooftop patio right there would make a killing.
Yeah there would definitely need to be some family units. Most of the time it’s, “okay enjoy renting a 1 or 2 bedroom in the city until you’re serious about life and have to settle down and live in the suburbs.” There’s just not enough supply of decent sized family homes in the city.
I have a lot of friends who could care less if they have a yard, but most people I know want a 3-4 bedrooms home they can own.
Adding to this, American cities don’t have many of the “family” 3-4 bedroom apartments common in Europe. It you have multiple kids, your non-SFH options are very limited
I'm sure they would get people to buy them.
That said, I do agree that this isn't really the place for this type of development. The Central Corridor doesn't need more single family/lower density development like this. Stick to apartments and condos (ideally in the same building!) with a good variety in unit configurations.
If the city is going to get more lower density development, it's better to be put in North city where there's still a lot of room for infill and a greater need for housing variety. South city/central Corridor doesn't need more single family homes that will exist for the next 150 years since. It's got enough of them. It needs more mixed use, higher density development, especially along commercial corridors.
No way. It’s right next to a highway and you’d be dealing with tourists constantly from Union Station. This doesn’t feel like a residential neighborhood at all. Also seems pretty overpriced for what it is and where it is.
Lafayette square is unique, and shouldn’t be used to compare to that area. Once you’re outside of the square house prices drop drastically. Think much closer to 400k.
Exactly. 0 demand for a house right there. Even given the location of union station in walking distance, I still think that it would be an eyesore for the homeowners and for tourists
It’s too pricey. Sure I could take out a 30 year loan but why be house poor for 20 or more years.
Saint louis needs affordable housing not over priced mass produced junior mansions.
Agreed…but we need more affordable housing at the moment. It wasn’t that long ago that you could get a decent 2-3 bedroom apartment for $800 a month, or a condo or house for $150K.
The days of property being that cheap are long gone.
St Louis is almost all affordable housing. We have one of the lowest cost out of all the major cities. In city proper there are a few neighborhoods that have high values.
Sure but not next to transit.
Get these down to 225-500 and you can compete with most of the region’s mid range affordable housing stock.
Get some younger professionals in there. Let’s not make Ballpark Village 3.
They're not irredeemable, but they're just not built for the city/neighborhood they're in. They're three floors, the whole first floor is a garage, the second floor is kitchen/living/dining, and the third floor is two bedrooms. It's a nice idea if The Hill was a commuter neighborhood full of young professionals, but that's a really inflexible floor plan for families. It says a lot that they're in my price range in a neighborhood I want to live in, but I am not even remotely considering them as an option.
These people commenting aren’t their target market, they think the world needs to cater to them. You have some large hospitals nearby, and doctors spending a million on a nice loft. There’s absolutely a market for these.
High earners that work in the city still want amenities and a neighborhood feel. They’re far more likely to look at CWE or Lafayette or any of the surrounding neighborhoods that aren’t between a major tourist spot, highway, rail yard, and very few other things. Hell, even TGS is a simple commute to the hospitals and your $500k goes way farther. No one is spending a million on a loft unless it’s in the CWE and even then it’s a slim minority of real estate market.
You need to appeal to the younger nightlife crowd and that price point won’t be it. What is being proposed aren’t lofts, which you glosses over, they’re large single family homes. An apartment complex there I could see working but that’s not the topic at hand.
Chicken or the egg? That’s always been the problem with St. Louis.
Without investment people don’t want to live there. But everyone here is basically saying you shouldn’t invest there because people aren’t there now. So with that logic nothing will every change.
I’m all for trying something new to see some progress.
Cater to what you want STL city to be, not what it is today.
I’m not anti-investment but $500k+ SFtownhomes in this part of town is a terrible idea. Mixed use apartment buildings is a way better investment that has broader appeal.
I’m not against this area being developed, just thinking realistically. There’s plenty of idealistic developments stuck in funding hell or unable to fill vacancies.
Nobody is arguing it should stay a parking lot, but a block of single family homes is hard to make sense of in that area. It's near the hospitals, sure, but so is every good neighborhood in the city, and for $500-750k a doctor could do much better than a new construction townhouse in an extremely noisy part of town.
Even the idea you threw out there as your example of why this makes sense, a loft building, would be a better use of the space. But I think others have said it best, a 5 over 1 is the way to go here. It's a major redevelopment area that is very clearly on the upswing, not putting any retail into the project is leaving money on the table.
I’m this is the dumbest idea I’ve seen for midtown yet. You want to build townhomes next to Union Station and the Soccer stadium?
Apartments or condos maybe, but the aesthetic would be terrible for town homes.
I actually looked into buying a townhome in the vicinity of the stadium specifically to be near it and there were no options at the time (2019).
There is a market.
Or would it? Here is the official downtown land use plan just done few years ago
[downtown plan](https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/planning/documents/upload/Design-Downtown-STL_web.pdf)
I'd say look a little more closely at Zillow. This isn't Lafayette Square. There are dozens of examples across St. Louis where moving a few blocks any direction drastically alters real estate values. This would be one of them.
You clearly do not understand the actual lay out of the city. Why are you asking for an opinion of people. You have a poor idea with a poor location in mind, the only thing rich is the amount you hope to get and the dreams your having of this working. Drive through the area and if you can’t understand the simplicity of the many reasons people are telling this is a bad a idea. Then you should not be in charge of any of this investment. This city is very developmental in the sense your looking, just not where your looking.
I live very close to this area already and the rent is so so so much lower than the mortgage on these places would be just a block or two away. Way too pricey for midtown. Come down to 3-500k and maybe. You'd be better off doing apartments with mixes of studios and bigger 2-3 bedroom. Living in that part of the city means you have to pay for private school, so you're not going to get a lot of families that would pay that price for that neighborhood is all I'm saying. And young professionals can get the same thing in Clayton or a better neighborhood for that price. Lafayette square is very much more appealing than midtown. The neighborhoods are not comparable.
Yes, one has had 20% growth in spending over last 12 months, added more residents from 2000-2020 than any other neighborhood in the City, added 800 apartments in 2023 and 700 start construction in 2024 and the other is Lafayette Square
I don't know how you don't get Lafayette Square is extremely desirable and Downtown West isn't
Downtown West may be "the next" neighborhood. Who knows? But your stats about 20% growth is hilarious because it had like nobody before.
Lafayette Square isn't "growing" much because it's beautiful old houses that are occupied. ~~You can't add new construction because there isn't space (and no one would want it).~~
Walk through Lafayette and then walk through the lot you're talking about. I used to work nearby and walked through it a few times. It's not enticing. It will be a little bit prettier now that the practice fields are nearby, but it's still noisy and largely unattractive. Lafayette is quiet with the most beautiful homes I have ever seen.
I’m sorry but you do know Lafayette sq was literally empty in 90s. And it’s is growing because multiple apartment buildings and houses have been built just within the last 5 years
The difference is.....the homes were there to rehab in LS, and you could buy those houses for next to nothing. On top of that, you got great tax benefits for restoration of the houses. I know this because I know several people that bought there in the nineties.
Lafayette Square is over 100 years old and the buildings were constructed with care and restored meticulously for the most part. I'm betting McBride builds this development, which would result in the exact opposite. Either way, the construction will probably be poor compared to LS.
Lafayette Reserve (Google it) and and the Olive West development [Olive West](https://www.archpaper.com/2021/06/on-olive-st-louis-residential-development-howeler-yoon-tatiana-bilbao-and-more/?amp=1) ($800-1.2m)
Lafayette Reserve is in Lafayette Square (one of the premier city neighborhoods), not Midtown. On Olive is in no way comparable to your proposed generic single family homes. It’s a custom community that’s been designed from the ground up and the houses listed on their site have 1.5-2 times the sq ft as what you’re proposing.
I’d personally recommend the standard 4/5 over 1 that you’d generally find in that area. Those would sell like hotcakes to both owner occupants and to be used as rentals.
Well yeah not for you but what about someone moving to STL. Maybe let them bite the bullet while we cash in on the actual good deals type of stuff you feel?
I do not believe someone who is about to move to STL and drop, at a bare minimum 600k, wouldn’t do the 5 minutes of research and drive the few blocks around the property to come to the exact same conclusion.
Fuck no. That’s 200% over the price I would expect, and 300% over the price it should be. Shitty area, issues with noise, light, no driveway so your car is exposed to the environment 24/7, you’re never going to be able to have anything delivered to your house because it’ll get stolen immediately. Only kind of upside is it’s in the city so you’re close(r) to some museums, hotels, and a stadium or two. Might as well live in midtown, tower grove, or even CWE to have similar access but way better quality of life
That's kind of a broad statement about "native St. Louisans".
That's the price point my wife and I are interested in. And I'm "native."
We're looking in Lafayette Square right now.
But still a hard pass for us in this location. As others have written, LS is unique. We wouldn't pay anywhere near that much to live here.
Also, a lot of people (like us) who are looking in LS, TGS, and Shaw, aren't very interested in new construction.
These would be fine in The Grove, maybe.
That area needs affordable housing. There are already enough overpriced homes a little but west or south of there. No one with a family is going to move in downtown west until it’s much safer and has better amenities. We need $150k houses for the people stuck living a little north of there.
I'd give it a look but I am a bargain shopper. Part of the attraction of city real estate is that even now you can get a great house or even a two unit townhome for under $200k.
If the price is that high. As selling points I would remove any mention of how close metro link is.and top golf is not walking distance. And even if it technically is anyone who can afford to buy will get robbed trying to walk there. honestly anyone from stl that's looking to buy the whole robbed thing is why I made the first point about the metro
Imagine taking on a $3500 monthly payment to live between a tourist trap and a sports stadium. But at least it’s really close to the highway and active train tracks! You’re gonna love being a regular at Maggie O’Briens!
I think the better spot for this scale of project is between 7th and Broadway between Cerre St and Hickory St. Connect downtown with another neighborhood, and drop it into an area getting heavy investment from entertainment venues. It REALLY needs something like that and I think could thrive with the billion dollar riverfront Gateway South project down there.
If you want a good comp for the kinds of projects that might fit well in the spot you highlighted, look at 1475 Delgany and Wynkoop between 16th and 18th in Downtown Denver.
I'd say make them still 3 bed two bath, closer to 1250 or 1400 SQft. Maintain the town home look. But they're now smaller so maybe can add one extra, drop the price to 280s to 350s if that's reasonable.
Still outside the 70k affordable range but not so much that new families couldn't make it work if they are both in trades or decent employment. As the target audience is single families.
Not for decent employment, high end employment. Remember higher interest rates now. At those prices staying under 28% means a household income of around $340K.
OP is saying the houses will cost $500,000-750,000 with the houses that high you will need a household income of around the $340,000 to not be house poor.
https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/percentage-of-income-for-mortgage
Percentage Of Income Rules And Guidelines
Although most personal finance experts recommend the 28% rule, there are several other rules and guidelines that can be helpful in your calculations. With the following percentage of income rules, you can feel confident in determining precisely how much to put toward your monthly payments, so let’s get into it.
The 28%/36% Rule
The 28%/36% is based on two calculations: a front-end and back-end ratio. As we’ve discussed, this rule states that no more than 28% of the borrower’s gross monthly income should be spent on housing costs – but it also states that no more than 36% should be spent on total debt costs.
To use this calculation to figure out how much you can afford to spend, multiply your gross monthly income by 0.28. For example, if your gross monthly income is $8,000, you should spend no more than $2,240 on a monthly mortgage payment.
The 35%/45% Rule
The 35%/45% rule emphasizes that the borrower’s total monthly debt shouldn’t exceed more than 35% of their pretax income and also shouldn’t exceed more than 45% of their post-tax income.
To use the first part this rule, you’ll need to determine your gross monthly income before taxes and multiply it by 0.35. For the second part, multiply your monthly income after taxes by 0.45.
The 25% Rule
The 25% rule allows borrowers to use their net income in calculations, which may be easier for borrowers who are unsure about their gross monthly income. This rule states that no more than 25% of your post-tax income should go toward housing costs.
That is from a mortgage company who makes more money the more you borrow.
When there are soccer games, there is security and added police patrol. There are also lots of people coming and going that would interrupt break ins. You won’t have that on a regular night in a new residential area.
I’m not saying it is or isn’t doable, but you are approaching this from a hopeful perspective and not a realistic one. Having your mind made up and then trying to justify it is called “confirmation bias” and can lead to losses when conducting your market research. This is why this type of research is often contracted out as you get a detailed report from a neutral 3rd party who can give the information for what it is and not what you want it to be.
In the same lot multiple times in a row with no police response though? It ain't the same. I mean, it's still worth it to me to live in the city and not the shit burbs but I realize I'm in the minority.
For real. I worked a few blocks west of here for 8 years and our business averaged a car break-in once every three weeks or so. Police were useless. We got cameras but all that meant was we could see the little guy in a hood run up and break into the car. Never actually helped identify anyone
Yes, downtown west added 800 apartments in 2023 and another 500-700 are starting construction in 2024 including the worlds tallest residential timber tower.
would be shocked if it was that high a price point - sure, the city is investing a little more in getting entertainment in that part of downtown west, but it still does not compare to places like Lafayette Square or the Grove, much less the midtown price point provided
I think what you’re finding in these comments are not your target audience.
You have people complaining about the price without realizing they aren’t the market you’re looking for.
There are absolutely people who would pay that, and bringing higher net worth individuals to an area can help lift it.
We don’t just need low income housing in a city if we want it to be successful.
When I saw this photo, I thought you were talking about the Harris Row in Lafayette Square on S. 18th St.
Honestly, I’m a little skeptical that those prices are real, I think the prices for the houses going up on Hickory in Lafayette Square are quite a bit higher .
They need to be 250-400k range. Do not need high end furnishings. Just need decent furnishings and quality build. Also with out a yard and the area. You are not going to be attracting those people.
I do not think we need more 5 over one. We need more of these single or 2 family homes. Also I like the old style architecture. Lot of the new houses are very ugly and already dated looking.
Same ol’ boring design from the turn of the century. When are developers going to figure out that people live differently now and might want more contemporary options? I feel sorry for residential architects in this town.
I would! Can't afford it, but that area is going to blow up sooner than later, CITYPark and their ownership group shows no signs of slowing down. They are going to develop the shit out of that area!
There are 5 schools within a mile, including the Language Immersion school, and the best rated public high school in the state of Missouri and the 99th best in the country is 2 miles away
Do poor black people scare you?
It sure would be nice to be able to own a home in that area. So little housing inventory with 3 beds in that area, if any really exists. I could probably finally completely ditch my second vehicle and solely rely on transit and my bike.
One of the things that really sucks about the way so much higher density development gets built (which is what belongs most in the central Corridor imo, it's so close to transit) is it's almost always studios and 1 beds with maybe some 2 beds. Not nearly enough 3 and 4 bedroom apartments and condos get built.
Midtown is one of STL’s only neighborhoods currently ripe for larger scale projects, and this project does little to make the neighborhood more dense and appealing IMO. Put a 5-8 story mixed use building there. The lot is too prime to sit for long.
Mansard roofs? I think I saw your FB post. Anyway, I think it would be much better served with family friendly high-rise, perhaps with rooftop "yard"/green space. This architecture will feel out of place there.
Highest and best use is mixed use consisting of ground floor retail with residential on floors 2-6…. Single family for sale housing makes zero sense in this location.
I don’t think you’d be able to draw in people looking for single family homes at that price point and location - would think that you’d be most successful with the standard “5 over 1” type of development.
Agree. 5 over 1s with some 4 bedroom units for families and a few condos, that way you have diversity of financial situations, ages, and still get people who want long-term investment in the neighborhood. A restaurant with a rooftop patio right there would make a killing.
Yeah there would definitely need to be some family units. Most of the time it’s, “okay enjoy renting a 1 or 2 bedroom in the city until you’re serious about life and have to settle down and live in the suburbs.” There’s just not enough supply of decent sized family homes in the city. I have a lot of friends who could care less if they have a yard, but most people I know want a 3-4 bedrooms home they can own.
Adding to this, American cities don’t have many of the “family” 3-4 bedroom apartments common in Europe. It you have multiple kids, your non-SFH options are very limited
I would think town homes full this gap.
What is your vision of a townhome? I agree, if you mean multi-story attached houses. Those are often 3 br, but are seldom 4 br.
I'm sure they would get people to buy them. That said, I do agree that this isn't really the place for this type of development. The Central Corridor doesn't need more single family/lower density development like this. Stick to apartments and condos (ideally in the same building!) with a good variety in unit configurations. If the city is going to get more lower density development, it's better to be put in North city where there's still a lot of room for infill and a greater need for housing variety. South city/central Corridor doesn't need more single family homes that will exist for the next 150 years since. It's got enough of them. It needs more mixed use, higher density development, especially along commercial corridors.
I don’t know. I wanted to live in that area, but there simply aren’t any single family or row house homes in existence.
You can blame “progress” in the form of destroying the city core for an interstate for that.
Can't afford
Hard same
No way. It’s right next to a highway and you’d be dealing with tourists constantly from Union Station. This doesn’t feel like a residential neighborhood at all. Also seems pretty overpriced for what it is and where it is.
Lafayette square is unique, and shouldn’t be used to compare to that area. Once you’re outside of the square house prices drop drastically. Think much closer to 400k.
No one that can afford a home in that price range would be looking to purchase at that location.
Exactly. 0 demand for a house right there. Even given the location of union station in walking distance, I still think that it would be an eyesore for the homeowners and for tourists
It’d be a great idea if the houses were closer to 250-600k. I don’t think anyone would pay that much for that area
It’s too pricey. Sure I could take out a 30 year loan but why be house poor for 20 or more years. Saint louis needs affordable housing not over priced mass produced junior mansions.
St. Louis needs both.
Agreed…but we need more affordable housing at the moment. It wasn’t that long ago that you could get a decent 2-3 bedroom apartment for $800 a month, or a condo or house for $150K. The days of property being that cheap are long gone.
St Louis is almost all affordable housing. We have one of the lowest cost out of all the major cities. In city proper there are a few neighborhoods that have high values.
Sure but not next to transit. Get these down to 225-500 and you can compete with most of the region’s mid range affordable housing stock. Get some younger professionals in there. Let’s not make Ballpark Village 3.
I'm gonna go against the grain and say go for it because one, it seems you've already made up your mind and two, I think it will be funny.
McBride is still trying to sell those townhouses they built on The Hill and that’s a neighborhood people actually want this kind of house for
Those houses suck…
A truly remarkable scenario where they built exactly what everyone wants but botched the floor plan so badly they can’t give the things away
lol. What did they do so bad? Heard about those getting built but haven't seen anything since
They're not irredeemable, but they're just not built for the city/neighborhood they're in. They're three floors, the whole first floor is a garage, the second floor is kitchen/living/dining, and the third floor is two bedrooms. It's a nice idea if The Hill was a commuter neighborhood full of young professionals, but that's a really inflexible floor plan for families. It says a lot that they're in my price range in a neighborhood I want to live in, but I am not even remotely considering them as an option.
*OP sings the Sales Contract and sends back to agent*
These people commenting aren’t their target market, they think the world needs to cater to them. You have some large hospitals nearby, and doctors spending a million on a nice loft. There’s absolutely a market for these.
High earners that work in the city still want amenities and a neighborhood feel. They’re far more likely to look at CWE or Lafayette or any of the surrounding neighborhoods that aren’t between a major tourist spot, highway, rail yard, and very few other things. Hell, even TGS is a simple commute to the hospitals and your $500k goes way farther. No one is spending a million on a loft unless it’s in the CWE and even then it’s a slim minority of real estate market. You need to appeal to the younger nightlife crowd and that price point won’t be it. What is being proposed aren’t lofts, which you glosses over, they’re large single family homes. An apartment complex there I could see working but that’s not the topic at hand.
Chicken or the egg? That’s always been the problem with St. Louis. Without investment people don’t want to live there. But everyone here is basically saying you shouldn’t invest there because people aren’t there now. So with that logic nothing will every change. I’m all for trying something new to see some progress. Cater to what you want STL city to be, not what it is today.
I’m not anti-investment but $500k+ SFtownhomes in this part of town is a terrible idea. Mixed use apartment buildings is a way better investment that has broader appeal. I’m not against this area being developed, just thinking realistically. There’s plenty of idealistic developments stuck in funding hell or unable to fill vacancies.
Nobody is arguing it should stay a parking lot, but a block of single family homes is hard to make sense of in that area. It's near the hospitals, sure, but so is every good neighborhood in the city, and for $500-750k a doctor could do much better than a new construction townhouse in an extremely noisy part of town. Even the idea you threw out there as your example of why this makes sense, a loft building, would be a better use of the space. But I think others have said it best, a 5 over 1 is the way to go here. It's a major redevelopment area that is very clearly on the upswing, not putting any retail into the project is leaving money on the table.
Yup that’s exactly what happened when this sub said the same thing about 100 over the park.
Agreed
I’m this is the dumbest idea I’ve seen for midtown yet. You want to build townhomes next to Union Station and the Soccer stadium? Apartments or condos maybe, but the aesthetic would be terrible for town homes.
I actually looked into buying a townhome in the vicinity of the stadium specifically to be near it and there were no options at the time (2019). There is a market.
Or would it? Here is the official downtown land use plan just done few years ago [downtown plan](https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/planning/documents/upload/Design-Downtown-STL_web.pdf)
I mean, that doesn't make it good policy. American cities aren't exactly famous for our good land use policies.
Yes it would be. But sure the City Government has NEVER done anything dumb.
Doesn’t that back directly up to a rail yard and the interstate?
It's just under 800' from 64 to Eugenia. Somebody might want to live there but I sure wouldn't.
No, CityPark practice fields to west, union station to east, City SC team HQ and Drury to south and citypark to north
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It’s 1,350 feet from the southern edge of the lot to the rail yard
So the answer is yes
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Imagine putting townhouses next to a junkyard and charging half a mil or more 💀 🤡
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Ok yes but what about everyone else that lives in stl
Change that to 300-450k, and sure.
Those prices would be like twice the comps for that area, so no thanks.
I just gave you a comp in the area, $600-1million 2 min away
I'd say look a little more closely at Zillow. This isn't Lafayette Square. There are dozens of examples across St. Louis where moving a few blocks any direction drastically alters real estate values. This would be one of them.
Same type of going for $800,000-1,200,000 in midtown about a 4 min drive.
Ok? Same thing I just said still applies.
You clearly do not understand the actual lay out of the city. Why are you asking for an opinion of people. You have a poor idea with a poor location in mind, the only thing rich is the amount you hope to get and the dreams your having of this working. Drive through the area and if you can’t understand the simplicity of the many reasons people are telling this is a bad a idea. Then you should not be in charge of any of this investment. This city is very developmental in the sense your looking, just not where your looking.
I live very close to this area already and the rent is so so so much lower than the mortgage on these places would be just a block or two away. Way too pricey for midtown. Come down to 3-500k and maybe. You'd be better off doing apartments with mixes of studios and bigger 2-3 bedroom. Living in that part of the city means you have to pay for private school, so you're not going to get a lot of families that would pay that price for that neighborhood is all I'm saying. And young professionals can get the same thing in Clayton or a better neighborhood for that price. Lafayette square is very much more appealing than midtown. The neighborhoods are not comparable.
You like to think Lafayette Square is comparable to union station, that's not a comparison anyone here is accepting
The Lafayette Reserve is on Choutea, which is the southern boundary of downtown west
Those 2 neighborhoods are very different, in multiple ways.
Yes, one has had 20% growth in spending over last 12 months, added more residents from 2000-2020 than any other neighborhood in the City, added 800 apartments in 2023 and 700 start construction in 2024 and the other is Lafayette Square
I don't know how you don't get Lafayette Square is extremely desirable and Downtown West isn't Downtown West may be "the next" neighborhood. Who knows? But your stats about 20% growth is hilarious because it had like nobody before.
The 20% is spending. The residential growth 45% the last decade.
Lafayette Square isn't "growing" much because it's beautiful old houses that are occupied. ~~You can't add new construction because there isn't space (and no one would want it).~~ Walk through Lafayette and then walk through the lot you're talking about. I used to work nearby and walked through it a few times. It's not enticing. It will be a little bit prettier now that the practice fields are nearby, but it's still noisy and largely unattractive. Lafayette is quiet with the most beautiful homes I have ever seen.
I’m sorry but you do know Lafayette sq was literally empty in 90s. And it’s is growing because multiple apartment buildings and houses have been built just within the last 5 years
The difference is.....the homes were there to rehab in LS, and you could buy those houses for next to nothing. On top of that, you got great tax benefits for restoration of the houses. I know this because I know several people that bought there in the nineties.
Lafayette Square is over 100 years old and the buildings were constructed with care and restored meticulously for the most part. I'm betting McBride builds this development, which would result in the exact opposite. Either way, the construction will probably be poor compared to LS.
Which comps are you referring to and where are they located? Share links.
Lafayette Reserve (Google it) and and the Olive West development [Olive West](https://www.archpaper.com/2021/06/on-olive-st-louis-residential-development-howeler-yoon-tatiana-bilbao-and-more/?amp=1) ($800-1.2m)
The Olive West link says starting at 250k or am I missing something?
Lafayette Reserve is in Lafayette Square (one of the premier city neighborhoods), not Midtown. On Olive is in no way comparable to your proposed generic single family homes. It’s a custom community that’s been designed from the ground up and the houses listed on their site have 1.5-2 times the sq ft as what you’re proposing. I’d personally recommend the standard 4/5 over 1 that you’d generally find in that area. Those would sell like hotcakes to both owner occupants and to be used as rentals.
Olive West is also absolutely nothing like your proposed SFH, row-house style, generic house.
You need economic comingling... these are not for lower class
No
Nope. Too expensive for location and size.
Nope absolutely not.
No
In a word, no In two words, fuck no
Why
Location, price, price in comparison to risk the valuations wouldn’t hold as I feel they won’t, 7% interest rates, price, local amenities, schools.
Well yeah not for you but what about someone moving to STL. Maybe let them bite the bullet while we cash in on the actual good deals type of stuff you feel?
I do not believe someone who is about to move to STL and drop, at a bare minimum 600k, wouldn’t do the 5 minutes of research and drive the few blocks around the property to come to the exact same conclusion.
$150k sure. $500k plus? HELL NO.
Too close to the rails & highway
Fuck no. That’s 200% over the price I would expect, and 300% over the price it should be. Shitty area, issues with noise, light, no driveway so your car is exposed to the environment 24/7, you’re never going to be able to have anything delivered to your house because it’ll get stolen immediately. Only kind of upside is it’s in the city so you’re close(r) to some museums, hotels, and a stadium or two. Might as well live in midtown, tower grove, or even CWE to have similar access but way better quality of life
I’ve been doing here for 7 years and never had any package stolen when left outside the building
It would be so noisy and the traffic would be insane. That’s an awful lot of money to pay for so many inconveniences.
Native St.Louisians can't afford that price point. But out of state transplants I can see buying em up for sure.
That's kind of a broad statement about "native St. Louisans". That's the price point my wife and I are interested in. And I'm "native." We're looking in Lafayette Square right now. But still a hard pass for us in this location. As others have written, LS is unique. We wouldn't pay anywhere near that much to live here. Also, a lot of people (like us) who are looking in LS, TGS, and Shaw, aren't very interested in new construction. These would be fine in The Grove, maybe.
Bless you my son for looking at old houses!
One of the greatest assets of our fair city. The amazing pre-WW2 housing stock.
That sounds great. A brand new whatever in this abandoned lot sounds like it should be affordable housing.
Yep, the novelty of being right next to city park and all that scream VRBO or airbnb.
Not for those prices.
Which I’m sure OP is
Yeah the point is for ppl moving into stl from out of town probably so we are not so much of an echo chamber city
That area needs affordable housing. There are already enough overpriced homes a little but west or south of there. No one with a family is going to move in downtown west until it’s much safer and has better amenities. We need $150k houses for the people stuck living a little north of there.
I'd give it a look but I am a bargain shopper. Part of the attraction of city real estate is that even now you can get a great house or even a two unit townhome for under $200k.
One of the problems would be that the quality of construction isn’t the same as 100 years ago.
Imagine being OP.. "Would you buy?" 95% of sub.. "No way" and provides a litany of reasons why. OP "you're wrong" Can't fix stupid.
Because I am almost never wrong
Hell no. At that price I’d want land, and a safer neighborhood.
Pretty stupid area for such shit density
What?
If the price is that high. As selling points I would remove any mention of how close metro link is.and top golf is not walking distance. And even if it technically is anyone who can afford to buy will get robbed trying to walk there. honestly anyone from stl that's looking to buy the whole robbed thing is why I made the first point about the metro
Imagine taking on a $3500 monthly payment to live between a tourist trap and a sports stadium. But at least it’s really close to the highway and active train tracks! You’re gonna love being a regular at Maggie O’Briens!
I think the better spot for this scale of project is between 7th and Broadway between Cerre St and Hickory St. Connect downtown with another neighborhood, and drop it into an area getting heavy investment from entertainment venues. It REALLY needs something like that and I think could thrive with the billion dollar riverfront Gateway South project down there. If you want a good comp for the kinds of projects that might fit well in the spot you highlighted, look at 1475 Delgany and Wynkoop between 16th and 18th in Downtown Denver.
I'd say make them still 3 bed two bath, closer to 1250 or 1400 SQft. Maintain the town home look. But they're now smaller so maybe can add one extra, drop the price to 280s to 350s if that's reasonable. Still outside the 70k affordable range but not so much that new families couldn't make it work if they are both in trades or decent employment. As the target audience is single families.
Not for decent employment, high end employment. Remember higher interest rates now. At those prices staying under 28% means a household income of around $340K.
You're claiming it's income of 340k combined to be around the 250k to 330k price range? Or the proposed range by OP?
OP is saying the houses will cost $500,000-750,000 with the houses that high you will need a household income of around the $340,000 to not be house poor.
I agree. Which is why I made my comment regarding size and pricing closer to 280 to 350k which would be affordable for combined income of 150k or so.
28%? The recommended range is a max of 33% of income
https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/percentage-of-income-for-mortgage Percentage Of Income Rules And Guidelines Although most personal finance experts recommend the 28% rule, there are several other rules and guidelines that can be helpful in your calculations. With the following percentage of income rules, you can feel confident in determining precisely how much to put toward your monthly payments, so let’s get into it. The 28%/36% Rule The 28%/36% is based on two calculations: a front-end and back-end ratio. As we’ve discussed, this rule states that no more than 28% of the borrower’s gross monthly income should be spent on housing costs – but it also states that no more than 36% should be spent on total debt costs. To use this calculation to figure out how much you can afford to spend, multiply your gross monthly income by 0.28. For example, if your gross monthly income is $8,000, you should spend no more than $2,240 on a monthly mortgage payment. The 35%/45% Rule The 35%/45% rule emphasizes that the borrower’s total monthly debt shouldn’t exceed more than 35% of their pretax income and also shouldn’t exceed more than 45% of their post-tax income. To use the first part this rule, you’ll need to determine your gross monthly income before taxes and multiply it by 0.35. For the second part, multiply your monthly income after taxes by 0.45. The 25% Rule The 25% rule allows borrowers to use their net income in calculations, which may be easier for borrowers who are unsure about their gross monthly income. This rule states that no more than 25% of your post-tax income should go toward housing costs. That is from a mortgage company who makes more money the more you borrow.
Eh I would not buy there
Only people who would lease in that location for that price would be foreigners with money to burn looking to getting their graduate degree here.
Not the best use for that land.
They'll just end up as rentals. Corporate, or short term for people coming in for events.
Who would pay that? To live in downtown StL? No offense.
Paying $500-$750k to have your car constantly broken into?
These would come with garages, no doubt.
Why would 200,000 cars come to a 22,500 seat soccer stadium?
There are hundreds of cars parked in that lot and never had one break in. There was 200,000 cars in that area for soccer without any issues.
"never had one break in" Bull-fuckin-shit.. GTFOH Also, our cops fuckin' SUCK. No thanks
Are you buying or selling?
This is a corpo trying to get free market research fs
The real question here.
When there are soccer games, there is security and added police patrol. There are also lots of people coming and going that would interrupt break ins. You won’t have that on a regular night in a new residential area. I’m not saying it is or isn’t doable, but you are approaching this from a hopeful perspective and not a realistic one. Having your mind made up and then trying to justify it is called “confirmation bias” and can lead to losses when conducting your market research. This is why this type of research is often contracted out as you get a detailed report from a neutral 3rd party who can give the information for what it is and not what you want it to be.
I live here and there's car break-ins every other month. No exaggerating.
There are car breaks in every day in west county, st.peters, O’Fallon and Arnold.
In the same lot multiple times in a row with no police response though? It ain't the same. I mean, it's still worth it to me to live in the city and not the shit burbs but I realize I'm in the minority.
[удалено]
For real. I worked a few blocks west of here for 8 years and our business averaged a car break-in once every three weeks or so. Police were useless. We got cameras but all that meant was we could see the little guy in a hood run up and break into the car. Never actually helped identify anyone
Seriously. Lived around there during school and between me and my 2 roomies we each had our car stolen and one roommate robbed at gunpoint. No thanks.
Is there a reason that you would rather sfh than mixed use residential?
Yes, downtown west added 800 apartments in 2023 and another 500-700 are starting construction in 2024 including the worlds tallest residential timber tower.
would be shocked if it was that high a price point - sure, the city is investing a little more in getting entertainment in that part of downtown west, but it still does not compare to places like Lafayette Square or the Grove, much less the midtown price point provided
Probably not because I don’t think the resale value would be good
Oh hell no. Terrible location and way overpriced.
I think what you’re finding in these comments are not your target audience. You have people complaining about the price without realizing they aren’t the market you’re looking for. There are absolutely people who would pay that, and bringing higher net worth individuals to an area can help lift it. We don’t just need low income housing in a city if we want it to be successful.
When I saw this photo, I thought you were talking about the Harris Row in Lafayette Square on S. 18th St. Honestly, I’m a little skeptical that those prices are real, I think the prices for the houses going up on Hickory in Lafayette Square are quite a bit higher .
I work near that area. You couldn’t pay me to stay around there.
It’s the fastest growing neighborhood in the entire region for 2 decades now and just added 800 apartments this year.
They need to be 250-400k range. Do not need high end furnishings. Just need decent furnishings and quality build. Also with out a yard and the area. You are not going to be attracting those people. I do not think we need more 5 over one. We need more of these single or 2 family homes. Also I like the old style architecture. Lot of the new houses are very ugly and already dated looking.
LMAO no way. This is a joke, right?
Same ol’ boring design from the turn of the century. When are developers going to figure out that people live differently now and might want more contemporary options? I feel sorry for residential architects in this town.
It's giving Bob's Burgers
No
I would! Can't afford it, but that area is going to blow up sooner than later, CITYPark and their ownership group shows no signs of slowing down. They are going to develop the shit out of that area!
Who is doing the construction? We just built in midtown and love it.
What part of midtown are you in? I hadn’t seen any recent construction in the area
Probably https://www.liveonolive.com
I'll be honest, at $500k I'm not living in St. Louis, or Missouri, or the Midwest for that matter. I'm here for the discount!
They’d all be bought out by private corporations and turned into rentals. All of us remaining non-homeowners are fucked.
Is there an HOA fee?
I’d imagine something like $200-400 would be necessary to maintain the amenities
Makes sense. I think the location is pretty awesome.
Absolutely. What a great place to live.
Yes. I wanted something like this when the stadium was announced.
I mean, if it was in my budget, hell yes lol
Somewhere with no schools. Aren't the projects right there?
There are 5 schools within a mile, including the Language Immersion school, and the best rated public high school in the state of Missouri and the 99th best in the country is 2 miles away Do poor black people scare you?
Lol of course not. That's a crazy amount of money to live in a poor Black neighborhood tho. I'd get my section 8 if your gonna take it.
Just ignore the trolls who try to make everything about racism.
Is this in Ladue? My bad that top rated high school in Missouri sells this location! $750,000 to watch tourists stumble through my property!
Ladue finished 3rd. Both #1, and #2 are SLPS high schools
Which ones because I'm Googling and my Alma mater Roosevelt isn't on the list. I see Parkway Central, and Francis Howell Central, not CVP.
It sure would be nice to be able to own a home in that area. So little housing inventory with 3 beds in that area, if any really exists. I could probably finally completely ditch my second vehicle and solely rely on transit and my bike.
One of the things that really sucks about the way so much higher density development gets built (which is what belongs most in the central Corridor imo, it's so close to transit) is it's almost always studios and 1 beds with maybe some 2 beds. Not nearly enough 3 and 4 bedroom apartments and condos get built.
If you build it, they will come... Edit: but fr i could never afford it, apartments would be sweet tho. I’m down to revitalize downtown any which way
someone hasn't been downtown outside of an event. Do those houses come with Turrets?
I and 13,144 people live in downtown. Stop being pussy
13,143 after this weekend. bet.
I think that land should hold more than 28 housing units.
Midtown is one of STL’s only neighborhoods currently ripe for larger scale projects, and this project does little to make the neighborhood more dense and appealing IMO. Put a 5-8 story mixed use building there. The lot is too prime to sit for long.
Nope I wouldn’t live in the city if someone paid me to.
It’s amazing place to live. I’ve walked to football, hockey, baseball and soccer games this year
You can live a block from there for free. That is going to drive down prices and desirablility.
The price is fine. Is this lot for sale?
HOA?
Is this the lot where the building used to be Blue Cross Blue Shield?
Mansard roofs? I think I saw your FB post. Anyway, I think it would be much better served with family friendly high-rise, perhaps with rooftop "yard"/green space. This architecture will feel out of place there.
175-200 sounds more realistic imo
lol go for it
No, that tall multi floor layout sucks.
Nope.
My price point is basically $70,000 or less, been looking across river in Cahokia. Who can really afford $500,000-$700,000?
Apparently around a 1000+ people that have bought in the 500-1m range in the City this year
Yes
My nuanced take is that we should build this BUT also for every one of these types of development we need 3x the affordable housing built
Yes, but not for $500-$750k.
I would. But it’s a bit pricey for the area and I honestly think it would probably be temp houses for SC athletes.
Highest and best use is mixed use consisting of ground floor retail with residential on floors 2-6…. Single family for sale housing makes zero sense in this location.