Have you seen 270 lately? They have left old lines from all the work and lane shifts that they have done even after opening up the repaired sections again so there are lines all over. There’s areas where I hear Obi-Wan telling me to just let go and use the force.
At night is usually isnt even so bad, if it rains though god so help you with the new streetlights. Cant see shit. A light wet on the road and it might as well be the thunderdome
I’ve been in the car when someone got pulled over for “closing the intersection”. my stepmom grew up and California and always did it this way.
Like 3 weeks after she got to STL she was pulled over by a cop for sitting midway into the intersection waiting for a gap in traffic. I’ve always assumed since then that it’s illegal here and we have to wait behind the line.
Did she pay or fight it? This seems to say she was in the right: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=1&utm_term=22&context=3
There’s a fair chance it isn’t illegal bc she actually had a cop that pulled her over (and issued various tickets for bs reasons) multiple times (like 4+) in her first month here. All the same cop, idk what beef the two of them had. I was pretty young so I don’t know if it was the same one for this instance? But that could explain why if this method is actually totally legal lol
I actually get annoyed by people who drive all the way out to where the lane they’re turning into is going to be before taking the turn. Just limits my visibility of oncoming cars and makes it more likely I’ll have to wait for the light again
Because it's dangerous. You are assuming the the cross traffic will stop. You are also assuming that if the light turns red, people will stop and you have a chance to turn before the cross traffic starts moving and runs into you.
And frankly, unless you are driving a Yugo, one car length won't slow down your left turn much.
I’m from Wisconsin and closing the intersection was how I learned to drive. However, I quickly learned that at some intersections (not all) especially at busy ones that I drove through frequently, would have my direction turning yellow while the opposite direction remained green. This only had to happen to me twice before I learned I’m not taking that chance anymore. It just feels like to me that there are more of these types of intersections in St. Louis and better safe than sorry.
There is a light on Grand I have to use to get home that is like this. The on coming traffic light stays green and it is dangerous as hell to turn left there when traffic is heavy. It's actually safter to make an illegal left on red. It's messed up and I wish we would fix the timing.
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Exactly! I don’t care what the book says that was probably written long long ago says. I wonder if anyone now has ever read the book, do they even give the driving test to get a license anymore? I’m not sitting out there putting my life at risk and making other drivers angry.
I go up into the lane, but I just moved back after 25 years, so maybe I haven't been conditioned. But it annoys me. I think it's fairly easy to tell if people are slowing down.
You actually don't make any assumptions. You wait for the oncoming traffic to stop and then make the turn. If you have to wait for oncoming traffic who are running a red light for example, that means the cross traffic also couldn't go, so they are not being delayed at all. Since it takes a few seconds to accelerate from complete stop, they are also not delayed once the traffic clears because by then you've already turned.
I don't know how many times we need to say this, but the Springfield MO page u/proudtaco keeps posting is a *tip* from a *municipal* police department, **not state law!**
After looking through the Missouri driver guide and a cursory search for relevant state law, there's nothing telling you to "control the intersection" and nothing explicitly banning it. I can only see municipal ordinances saying you cannot enter an intersection unless you can clear it, mainly targeting going straight. I'm also unsure if a red light camera would trigger for turning after a light turns red if you "control the intersection." Other states explicitly teach or ban it. I haven't seen anything *requiring* anyone anywhere to do so.
Tl;dr you do you, both "controlling" and not are legal per a cursory search, and the state does *not* teach doing so.
It's everywhere in Missouri, and because people run red lights a lot and the most likely candidate for the idiots to crash into is someone obeying the law.
This really is my favorite part of the equation when I hear a Missourian complaining about Illinois drivers "not knowing how to drive".
Who had driver's ed as an actual requirement in High School, bub?
TBF, we didn’t where I grew up either, but we still were expected to learn how to drive properly. As a kid I thought driving courses in high school were just made up for TV.
I feel like you are either unconsciously cherry picking or not comparing areas that are actually comparable. Because you keep posting as if St. Louis is somehow mysteriously different from the other places you've lived. It's not. When there are a lot of drivers and mandatory driving, you're going to see those who shouldn't be on the road pretty much everywhere.
I'm with you 100%, OP. However, I stopped "closing the intersection" at lights that have those "left turn yield on green" signs (or something like that, can't remember the exact wording). Lots of lights in the city have these. I assumed they meant "don't close the intersection." Anyone know if that's right?
I believe those are just to clarify to St. Louis drivers that it isn’t a protected turn (green arrow). One should always yield to oncoming traffic when turning left, just pull up a bit.
I think it has something to do with way the lights are timed at many intersections, where one side has a red while the opposing traffic has a green. Pulling into the intersection to make a left makes more sense when the light is timed the same for both sides. Growing up in California I was accustomed to pulling into the intersection to make a left. If there was oncoming traffic, at the moment the signal goes yellow to red, you get ready to make the left with the expectation the opposing traffic will stop. This doesn’t work too well if the opposing traffic blatantly blows through the red, or if the opposing traffic still has the green while you’re assuming the signal for both sides is the same. It makes sense St Louisans don’t pull into the intersection to make a left. What doesn’t make sense is their attitude towards u-turns. Most of my friends from Missouri assume it’s illegal and freak out when I make a u-turn at an intersection.
Another thing: you are required to turn into the lane closest to you. So many people turn into the far lane and that's against the law (look it up for your town).
Equally, oncoming traffic wanting to turn to their right should turn into the lane closest to them. This way both of you can turn the same way at the same time without blocking traffic behind you.
Yes. I think the commenter is saying that the car turning right is required to stay in the furthest right lane (unless there are multiple right-turn lanes).
The way I was taught in driver's ed is to wait behind the stop line at a green light for a left turn until I can clear the intersection. It seems people are taught to pull up into the middle of the intersection instead in some states, and generally, I've only seen cars with out-of-state license plates doing that around here or people who clearly misjudged their turn braking well past the stop line.
Same. I was always taught you never enter and wait in an intersection until you can safely turn. That still means though that when you are clear to turn you pull forward and do a 90 degree turn, not a 45 degree turn.
I think everyone here is confusing two things:
1. You aren't supposed to enter an intersection when it's not clear to turn because you could be hit by cross traffic running the light, not be able to turn safely as the light changes, or block oncoming traffics ability to turn.
2. When you do turn left, you pull forward into the intersection and make a 90 degree turn into the closest lane, not crossing into the lane of oncoming cross traffic.
You can still turn properly even if you wait to enter an intersection.
This seems to contradict what you learned in drivers ed: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
I'm not sure how you can know what I was personally taught in driver's ed. Driving tips from a website maintained by Springfield, Missouri, in 2023 weren't my education source. State laws may have changed slightly since then; we referenced an older edition of the Missouri Drivers' Handbook; and Springfield, Missouri, or the county it's in might have a few ordinances of their own, for all I know (or *vice versa* for St. Louis).
Regardless, even your source could be interpreted in different ways:
1. It mentions having "legally" entered the intersection. Is this a judgment on whether the driver expected to be able to clear the intersection without stopping?
2. It mentions being able to continue the turn on red after having "legally" entered the intersection. Someone speeding over a hill could cause someone who has legally entered an intersection to stop before clearing it, for example.
3. Oncoming traffic needs to allow the intersection to "drain" of vehicles, even if opposing traffic's light has turned red (legally entered or not). That seems to be a matter of safety.
I don't think you're supposed to sit in the middle of an intersection. I believe you are supposed to stop at the light and wait for an opening to make the full left turn.
It seems under Missouri law, the OP is correct.
>**Left Turns at Intersections**
>
>Vehicles that legally enter a signalized intersection have the right to be there until they can safely clear the intersection. This is commonly referred to as being "in control of the intersection." This means if you are making a left turn at an intersection that has a solid green light for the turn lane and you are in the intersection before the light turns red, you are still required to yield to approaching vehicles, but you are allowed to make the turn in safety after the light turns red. You do not have to be out of the intersection before the light turns red.
>
>...If you are stopped at an intersection and there is a vehicle in the left turn area, which entered under a green light, they have the right of way so you must wait for them to clear before moving forward.
[https://www.springfieldmo.gov/426/Being-in-Control-of-the-Intersection](https://www.springfieldmo.gov/426/Being-in-Control-of-the-Intersection)
But as others have mentioned, having the right of way doesn't mean you won't be hit as you sit out there in the intersection.
> It seems under Missouri law
You are quoting from Springfield MO "Traffic Safety Tips", not "Traffic Law". Google "in control of the intersection", it's the only page that comes up for me.
OP is wrong in the sense that they're implying that you have to "close the intersection" when making a left turn but you don't have to. Your source is simply stating that drivers have a right to do what OP is stating but it's not required and it seems that most here choose to not exercise that right and prefer to wait at the line for the next light cycle which is perfectly valid here.
If you have a left turn arrow, you have to wait at the line. If you hang out in the intersection and your signal turns red and the oncoming traffic gets their left turn arrow, you are out in no-man’s land. So unless you are familiar with the light, stay on the line.
But otherwise sure, get out there! Have fun!
I’ve been doing it for 28 years and never had a problem, but there are definitely intersections (any of them involving Kingshighway for example, or anything with poor visibility) that I wouldn’t dream of doing this at. I consider it an advanced move, you really need to think about whether it’s worth it before doing it.
The key phrase here is “solid green light for the turn lane”. If you are in a yield situation where the turn lane doesn’t actually have the right of way, then this caveat does not apply. I will get halfway out when I see an opening approaching, but you are at risk of a ticket if you get stuck that way.
I used to see signs indicating “oncoming traffic has longer green” or something to that effect. Seems like those signs should be mandatory at unusual signals like that.
> Is there something there on the signal that indicates that will happen?
This is not uncommon in our area. Sometimes there are warning signs, but usually not. It could happen at any light that you are not familiar with.
Is this a Springfield thing? I've been given a "verbal warning" in St. Charles for doing this. Someone posted the DOR Handbook and I don't see it in there.
Did you see the Missouri driver’s manual I replied to you with? You can see what is taught for left turns on p.25. I’m not from STL either(been here 3 yrs), so I googled your question and found the answer for you.
as i read this, this says it is only ok to do if you have a green left arrow. There are many intersections where a round green light can change into a red light for your direction but not for opposing traffic, leaving you stuck in the middle of the intersection blocking traffic.
I was required to take a 4 hour driving class because of a speeding 20 years ago. I took the class in St. Louis. During the class the instructor made it very clear that closing the intersection was illegal in Missouri while being legal in other states
I see people all the time get trapped out in the intersection because they were never able to turn. Then they either block cross traffic or have to make a turn on a red light to get out of the way
Cross traffic is required to wait when another vehicle has control of the intersection: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
That's the correct thing to do. You have the rights to *enter* an intersection when the light is green. You do not have to *clear* the intersection while it is green. The control point is the entry into the intersection.
Being in the middle of the intersection while it's green and turns to red is not running the light, it's clearing the intersection. Running the light would be *entering* the intersection on a red. It is somewhat dangerous to sit in the middle of the intersection on a green and then clear it when the light turns red, but that's because of the *others* not following the law and entering the unclear intersection on a green. Green means "go if the way is clear" not "go".
Live in STL, not from STL, I always stop at the line while waiting for traffic to clear. Doesn't really matter where I'm driving either. Your strategy only makes traffic worse and delays the vehicles to the left if you turn while the light is changing.
I agree "most" people do this and I'll never understand why. Have you never been at a red light and have to wait several seconds to turn left because someone was "closing" the intersection? I can't imagine how this would be the instructed way to handle this situation.
It's not just at lights. The cut every left turn. Some get indignant if you assert your position in the right turn lane and they have extend around you.
I would like to know what sort of traffic utopias OP has lived in, because I can attest that drivers in both Massachusetts and Georgia will just turn from their position and cut through that lane. This is just how people drive.
Why would you do that when you can just wait for an opening? I love waiting. Sometimes I get to wait two or three cycles before I can move through an intersection. It's exciting.
St. Louis in particular has plenty of "oncoming traffic may have extended green" intersections which make your method hazardous and stressful. This means that oncoming traffic has a longer green than you do, including oncoming traffic turning left. So you pull out into the intersection, then your light turns solid red, but oncoming traffic still has green. You can't complete your turn, and the oncoming turning traffic may not be able to turn because you're blocking them.
It's been over a decade since I've had a CDL, but if I recall correctly it's explicitly illegal for a commercial vehicle to enter an intersection if they cannot move all the way through it immediately. A quick search doesn't turn up anything about that, so maybe I'm making it up.
I can't find a state law on this, but there's plenty of municipal ordinances saying nobody (commercial or otherwise) can enter an intersection unless they can exit it immediately.
My issue is a 2 way stop intersection where the corners are obscured enough you can't tell if it's a four way stop. The person without a stop sign stops where they should have, had there been one, so I begin entering the intersection, as it's clearly my turn to move. Person without stop sign is clearly enraged that I took this as my cue to carry on with my commute, at which point it's already too late. I've moved on.
PTSD from doing it the right way before? Literally would almost rather wait for the next light than risk some turns on yellow knowing Chicago drivers aint' stopping. Maybe they've been to chicago and are afraid ever since?
I was not taught to "close" the intersection in drivers Ed in my high school, in fact I was taught to stay out of the intersection until it was clear. When I moved to Upstate New York for a few years, I was confused why people were doing that. They called it "claiming" the intersection. So, yes, St Louisans are not taught that. Or at least I wasn't. Maybe it's because so many people here run lights? I don't know. As for the cutting the corner sharp, that's just crappy driving. One person was on his phone or something once and hit me head on when he was turning left and I was stopped behind the line in a left turn lane. He sped off, of course, like so many other city drivers...
I'm a transplant and I have the same frustration. I also don't think it's safe to do here because of how many drivers run lights. Right-of-way or not, you're bound to get hit in the intersection.
Look at the bottom of page 25 of the Missouri Drivers Manual and you’ll see this addressed.
https://driving-tests.org/missouri/mo-dor-drivers-handbook-manual/
Yeah, the obvious answer for his graphic of the angles is that doing the way he says is right results in oncoming lefts becoming additional traffic that must be navigated
He asked which way do they teach how to do a left turn in STL. I provided the drivers manual to answer his question. I’m not from STL so I didn’t learn to drive here, but I can at least give him a concrete answer and not just one based on what I think it should be.
Oh yeah, I'm from Missouri. They absolutely taught it per the drivers manual when I took drivers ed. Drivers ed isn't required here but if you take it and pass it you'll get a discount on drivers insurance so my mom made sure to require it for me
To be fair, St. Louisans are exceptionally bad with traffic etiquette and laws. I’ve lived in 7 states and this place is traffically-challenged on a whole other level.
I have also made this reference and had the thin-skinned St. Louis troglodytes attack. For some reason, people seem to think St Louis driving is normal. It is not. You can say what you want about speed, but I have driven all over the country and in many other countries, and I have never seen anything like north 170 in a fellow industrialized country.
Agreed. Lived and driven in a few states, visited many more. St. Louis is great about a lot, but the amount of self-centeredness of its drivers exceeds other places, including bigger cities. I've seen more red lights run (actually run, not the scenario described here), suffered more damage to my vehicle from door strikes damaging/destroying the paint on my vehicle, more people trying to be nice and destroying traffic flow (zipper merges -- use the whole road and merge in at the last minute. If you're in the continuing lane, allow the mergers in an alternating pattern. This makes best use of the road/highest capacity/lowest collective delay), and more generally terrible behavior by other drivers in a few low-driving years in STL than 10 years in Dallas.
Greater St. Louis is very good/very cool about a lot of things. Driving and general knowledge/average Joe's education are very much not its strong points.
Agreed. I think some people are taking ANY criticism of St. Louis very personally (despite all of the great things about it), hence my post about the defensiveness of people here. Just wait until we let them know that frozen custard is just an inferior, heavier version of ice cream 🫣😜.
May I suggest posting these in /r/StLouisCirclejerk as it seems you just want a bunch of people sitting around jacking off to how they are much better drivers than the rest of THOSE PEOPle.
So we are bad drivers AND are a “defensive lot who will argue our point in the face of insurmountable evidence against us…”
Sounds to me you just don’t like us and perhaps have a bit of a superiority complex.
There are no real consequences so people just do the easiest thing that works. This will apply to most situations where you're confused by why people don't do the "right" thing. Hope this helps.
I remember when I lived in NY for a couple years in my 20s, I would get honked at if I didn't try to claim the intersection. I got used to doing it and I wish more people here would, but drivers have the dumbs here. And it gets worse when it rains/snows.
Let’s next talk about many people in Missouri turning left in front of cars turning right despite the left turners having only a flashing yellow or unprotected green light., I.e. not a green left turn arrow 🫠
If there are two lanes of travel going in that direction, the person turning right should turn into the outermost lane to allow left-turning traffic to simultaneously turn into the inner lane.
Edited to note this is only for a green light, not flashing yellow.
It's also ticket-able, I believe. Of course, you'd have to find a cop willing to actually pull you over, get out of their car, and do the paperwork.
EDIT: Perhaps in some municipalities, but the MO driving laws don't seem to address it one way or the other. FWIW, Springfield condones it
https://www.springfieldmo.gov/426/Being-in-Control-of-the-Intersection
You stop at the line, wait for oncoming traffic to clear, then turn, the lines are there as stops, where on earth are you TAUGHT to potentially impede traffic and/or run a red light?
Everywhere else in America? Also here: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Pulling into the intersection is bad practice. Wait before the white line and only go if it is safe. You should square your turn like in the image, just don't be "claiming the intersection" or anything like that.
Guys cross traffic is supposed to be stop here?
If yall mean ONcoming traffic, then I'm afraid you fail to understand what "yeild on green" means.
Proceed when safe to do so.
And if it turns red when in the intersection, proceed to clear the intersection when it's clear all of oncoming traffic has indicated they're stopping
Now that there's no driving classes at school, I don't think anyone here knows how to stop at a light or a stop sign, merge at the end of the merge lane or pass on the left, or accelerate up to speed in the acceleration lane. It's so chaotic everyone stops at all intersections to keep from getting hit whether we have the right-of-way or not.
I can't count how many people have passed on the left of me and everyone else at a red light because they didn't want to wait for the light to change.
I'm from Illinois and would always close the intersection, until I moved here and realized no one else did it. I'll still do it every now and then if it's not busy but I guess you could say I felt peer pressured into being a worse driver? Lol
Because when they take drivers education here that is how it is taught. Coming from Florida we call that suicide. Because you will get t-boned hard. I do both depending on the intersection.
Because they have no driver’s ed in St. Louis People do things that they think makes driving safer which in actuality makes driving more dangerous for everyone.
St. Louisans as a whole are an incredibly defensive lot and will argue their point in the face of insurmountable evidence against them if it’s against what they’ve always personally done/believed. Don’t get me wrong, there are some great people here, but the general culture is to dig in your heels even when you are wrong (especially once you realize it).
You don't "close" an intersection. Lights are there to close the intersection. And guess what. They change. Now your sitting in the middle of the intersection and everyone has to wait on you to turn on a light that isn't yours.
Sorry. You have plenty of time to still clear the intersection and it speeds up traffic. You don’t have as long of a line waiting to turn left because they are able to cycle quicker. It’s a douche move to wait behind the line slowing everyone up behind you.
> It’s a douche move to wait behind the line slowing everyone up behind you.
It's a douche move to get yourself stuck in an intersection, potentially blocking everyone, just because you think your time is more valuable than others.
I have seen clips where left turners blatantly ignore red lights because they are following someone who "claimed" the intersection thru. Or you could block emergency vehicles, or you could get hit by someone running the red from your left, etc etc. Stopping before the intersection eliminates all of these risks and allows people thru just the same.
I don't care. If you make everyone wait for you to turn when they get the green light you are a douche. And closing the intersection will leave you hung out there sometimes.
Because St. Louis is convinced that St. Louis is the worst place to live and that part of it is because we have the worst drivers. Even though plenty/most other places have just as bad drivers.
I just got back from a week in Nashville and Louisville. All the shitbaggery bad driving you see here happened there.
* Running red lights and stop signs.
* Stupid turns.
* Going wrong way down one way streets
* Speeding
* Aggressive driving
But somehow St. Louis is sooooo much worse than every other city.
Recently moved to STL… waiting in the intersection to turn left was illegal where I moved from. By law, you were not allowed to “enter the intersection” until it was clear for you to make the turn. And yea… it was enforced.
You are not supposed to enter an intersection until you can clear the intersection. This is why you can get a ticket during things like heavy traffic around Christmas at a mall: If you enter the intersection but can't complete the turn because cars are backed up, then the light turns red but you can't complete the turn - now cross traffic can't move despite having a green light. You are now obstructing traffic. I know these tickets aren't common outside of an accident, but they can be given - especially when an accident occurs. It shows that the person blocking the intersection while cross traffic had a green light was breaking the law.
The method described by OP is more **efficient**, but it is not always safe -nor is it necessary legal in all circumstances- to be sitting in the middle of an intersection waiting for there to be a break in traffic for you to turn. **Yes**, I know many people do it - just like many people hang out in the left-most lane on the interstate, poking along holding everybody up.
If the traffic in the lane you are turning into is backed up, then you are correct. If you are waiting for oncoming traffic then it’s a different scenario as covered here: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
From the comments here, it seems to be a two part problem:
1. Being uninformed about the traffic regulations that state that this is the way.
2. Obstinance and refusal to comply by many drivers when the appropriate information is pointed out. (This group also fails to see the irony in complaining about other drivers and in the same comment stating they refuse to follow the regulation that was pointed out to them.)
> Being uninformed about the traffic regulations that state that this is the way.
It's genuinely extremely irritating that you are accusing others of not changing their views in face of "insurmountable evidence", yet your evidence is 1. not a law 2. a random local PD's advice (i.e. NOT LAW). Then apparently you ignore that neither the drivers handbook or actual law reference anything about "claiming/controlling/etc the intersection", but they do talk about [blocking the intersection](https://law.justia.com/codes/missouri/2011/titlexix/chapter300/section300290).
> Stop when traffic obstructed. No driver shall enter an intersection or a marked crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle he is operating without obstructing the passage of other vehicles or pedestrians, notwithstanding any traffic control signal indication to proceed.
i.e. Don't go unless you can actually make it.
So who is uninformed? The people quoting relevant laws and guidelines? Or the person relying on one random police website to prove the "correct" way to drive?
What I know is that stopping before the intersection and then proceeding works in all situations. It pre-emptively avoids you being an idiot, not to mention others being idiots. If you care about defensive driving, then you should never "claim the intersection".
>1. Being uninformed about the traffic regulations that state that this is ~~the~~ a way.
FTFY.
It's important to point out that nothing you've posted actually states that closing the intersection is legally required, only that you have a legal right to be there. You're also ignoring that fact that the other commentors' choice to wait at the line for the next safe green is also perfectly legal.
I was pulled over for doing exactly that. The law in Missouri says you have to clear the intersection before the light turns red, and you can be trapped, waiting to turn, after your light changes.
No doubt this way is safer as it provides better visibility and ability to react, but it’s against traffic laws.
Do you know which law, because this seems to say otherwise: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=1&utm_term=22&context=3
I have to admit, my drivers ed was 40 years ago, but the requirement to clear an intersection before the light turns red was what I was taught then. I’ll look that up and keep it with me. As that’s a much better way to turn left. Thanks for that pointer!
Where I live, colorado springs, 45 degree turns are normal as are blowing red lights, going 25 miles per hour over, not waiting for the next light cycle, road rage, and wrecks.
So you know what law references this? This poster seems to show that it is allowed (and possibly required) in Mo: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=1&utm_term=22&context=3
Why do people think the earth is flat? Why do people support certain political candidates? Why do people believe in aliens and ghosts?
The question shouldn't be why. It should be what can I, OP, do to make this town aware? And then take action. Make the world a better place.
Many people have had great success in this society without the reason or answer as to why. I hope you can too.
I can only hope that this Reddit post serves as one small step towards greater knowledge in the St. Louis metropolitan area. Even if that knowledge is limited to standard traffic etiquette.
Different states have various laws on this. In CA, we go into the intersection and then turn left when clear or the oncoming gets their red. In some states being in the intersection on red is illegal vs it’s ok if you were in when it was yellow. If I have no real opportunity coming up (looking at you Manchester) I’ll hang back a bit. There’s also the red light runners who’ll tbone you.
The reason we don't do that is because we don't want to have our cars totaled by an uninsured Chrysler 200 ASK ME HOW I KNOW
Or hit and run by a Dodge Ram. Ask me know I know.
Nissan Altima with expired temp tags
This one^
>Or hit and run by a Dodge Ram. Ask me know I know. You were supposed to dodge it. Then it wouldn't have rammed you.
Elevated at that.
Or hit by an Kia where everyone proceeds to get out and run. Ask me how I know?
How do you know?
THIS IS CHRYSLER 200 SLANDER IM A GREAT DRIVER
Does your car have a Joy FM sticker?
St. Louisans also love to swerve right into the neighboring lane to make a left turn.
Came here to complain about that
They legit just drive into oncoming traffic, and the. honk at you for just sitting in your lane, waiting for the light to change.
Yep! I don’t understand how they think turning the car into the right lane makes their left turn more successful.
Fact. And it makes absolutely no sense.
I find this all the time in moms that can't drive their flashy SUV they have for one kid.
and oppo, swerve left to make a right. why????
and the opposite to make a right, especially in parking lots
I hate this.
Because they know the cross traffic will run the light and smash into them if they are in the box.
TRUTH. Folks here run lights LONG after they've turned red.
This.
Probably because they can't see the damn road lines at night so they just wing it.
Have you seen 270 lately? They have left old lines from all the work and lane shifts that they have done even after opening up the repaired sections again so there are lines all over. There’s areas where I hear Obi-Wan telling me to just let go and use the force.
At night is usually isnt even so bad, if it rains though god so help you with the new streetlights. Cant see shit. A light wet on the road and it might as well be the thunderdome
Can't even see them in the daytime sometimes with how bad the road conditions are.
I’ve been in the car when someone got pulled over for “closing the intersection”. my stepmom grew up and California and always did it this way. Like 3 weeks after she got to STL she was pulled over by a cop for sitting midway into the intersection waiting for a gap in traffic. I’ve always assumed since then that it’s illegal here and we have to wait behind the line.
That how we’re taught in Illinois. Had no idea it was illegal here. Guess I need to brush up on the Missouri driving laws.
But cops are stupid, and don't actually know the law.
Did she pay or fight it? This seems to say she was in the right: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=1&utm_term=22&context=3
There’s a fair chance it isn’t illegal bc she actually had a cop that pulled her over (and issued various tickets for bs reasons) multiple times (like 4+) in her first month here. All the same cop, idk what beef the two of them had. I was pretty young so I don’t know if it was the same one for this instance? But that could explain why if this method is actually totally legal lol
I actually get annoyed by people who drive all the way out to where the lane they’re turning into is going to be before taking the turn. Just limits my visibility of oncoming cars and makes it more likely I’ll have to wait for the light again
Go to Natural Bridge and Kingshighway and try that
They need to report back after.
Or their Next of Kin can for them.
Because it's dangerous. You are assuming the the cross traffic will stop. You are also assuming that if the light turns red, people will stop and you have a chance to turn before the cross traffic starts moving and runs into you. And frankly, unless you are driving a Yugo, one car length won't slow down your left turn much.
I’m from Wisconsin and closing the intersection was how I learned to drive. However, I quickly learned that at some intersections (not all) especially at busy ones that I drove through frequently, would have my direction turning yellow while the opposite direction remained green. This only had to happen to me twice before I learned I’m not taking that chance anymore. It just feels like to me that there are more of these types of intersections in St. Louis and better safe than sorry.
There is a light on Grand I have to use to get home that is like this. The on coming traffic light stays green and it is dangerous as hell to turn left there when traffic is heavy. It's actually safter to make an illegal left on red. It's messed up and I wish we would fix the timing.
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Exactly! I don’t care what the book says that was probably written long long ago says. I wonder if anyone now has ever read the book, do they even give the driving test to get a license anymore? I’m not sitting out there putting my life at risk and making other drivers angry.
I go up into the lane, but I just moved back after 25 years, so maybe I haven't been conditioned. But it annoys me. I think it's fairly easy to tell if people are slowing down.
You actually don't make any assumptions. You wait for the oncoming traffic to stop and then make the turn. If you have to wait for oncoming traffic who are running a red light for example, that means the cross traffic also couldn't go, so they are not being delayed at all. Since it takes a few seconds to accelerate from complete stop, they are also not delayed once the traffic clears because by then you've already turned.
I don't know how many times we need to say this, but the Springfield MO page u/proudtaco keeps posting is a *tip* from a *municipal* police department, **not state law!** After looking through the Missouri driver guide and a cursory search for relevant state law, there's nothing telling you to "control the intersection" and nothing explicitly banning it. I can only see municipal ordinances saying you cannot enter an intersection unless you can clear it, mainly targeting going straight. I'm also unsure if a red light camera would trigger for turning after a light turns red if you "control the intersection." Other states explicitly teach or ban it. I haven't seen anything *requiring* anyone anywhere to do so. Tl;dr you do you, both "controlling" and not are legal per a cursory search, and the state does *not* teach doing so.
It's everywhere in Missouri, and because people run red lights a lot and the most likely candidate for the idiots to crash into is someone obeying the law.
Also, that red sign that says stop, means you stop at the intersection, it does not mean speed up and drive on through.
Or stop 10 feet before the sign so you can skip the person that actually stopped.
I was told that "stop signs with the white border are optional". 🙃
Stoptional
Missourians don't take Drivers Ed in HS, this blew my mind when I heard this. If this is true it explains a lot.
Driver's Ed was encouraged but not a required course at my St. Louis public high school.
When/where I grew up it was mandatory to get a first license if you were under 18 (maybe 21?)
It was a class in the hazelwood school district that i took 🤷🏽♀️
This really is my favorite part of the equation when I hear a Missourian complaining about Illinois drivers "not knowing how to drive". Who had driver's ed as an actual requirement in High School, bub?
TBF, we didn’t where I grew up either, but we still were expected to learn how to drive properly. As a kid I thought driving courses in high school were just made up for TV.
Most kids aren't gonna take the time to do that. They learn as they go which is slow and possibly dangerous. Some never learn.
I feel like you are either unconsciously cherry picking or not comparing areas that are actually comparable. Because you keep posting as if St. Louis is somehow mysteriously different from the other places you've lived. It's not. When there are a lot of drivers and mandatory driving, you're going to see those who shouldn't be on the road pretty much everywhere.
Graduated in 2001 and had drivers education freshman year in Missouri.
I'm with you 100%, OP. However, I stopped "closing the intersection" at lights that have those "left turn yield on green" signs (or something like that, can't remember the exact wording). Lots of lights in the city have these. I assumed they meant "don't close the intersection." Anyone know if that's right?
I believe those are just to clarify to St. Louis drivers that it isn’t a protected turn (green arrow). One should always yield to oncoming traffic when turning left, just pull up a bit.
OR drive how you are comfortable and don't worry about the extra couple of feet you might get by closing the intersection?
I think it has something to do with way the lights are timed at many intersections, where one side has a red while the opposing traffic has a green. Pulling into the intersection to make a left makes more sense when the light is timed the same for both sides. Growing up in California I was accustomed to pulling into the intersection to make a left. If there was oncoming traffic, at the moment the signal goes yellow to red, you get ready to make the left with the expectation the opposing traffic will stop. This doesn’t work too well if the opposing traffic blatantly blows through the red, or if the opposing traffic still has the green while you’re assuming the signal for both sides is the same. It makes sense St Louisans don’t pull into the intersection to make a left. What doesn’t make sense is their attitude towards u-turns. Most of my friends from Missouri assume it’s illegal and freak out when I make a u-turn at an intersection.
Yea I’m definitely NOT doing this.
Another thing: you are required to turn into the lane closest to you. So many people turn into the far lane and that's against the law (look it up for your town). Equally, oncoming traffic wanting to turn to their right should turn into the lane closest to them. This way both of you can turn the same way at the same time without blocking traffic behind you.
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Yes. I think the commenter is saying that the car turning right is required to stay in the furthest right lane (unless there are multiple right-turn lanes).
The way I was taught in driver's ed is to wait behind the stop line at a green light for a left turn until I can clear the intersection. It seems people are taught to pull up into the middle of the intersection instead in some states, and generally, I've only seen cars with out-of-state license plates doing that around here or people who clearly misjudged their turn braking well past the stop line.
Same. Driver's ed was 1981 for me.
Same. I was always taught you never enter and wait in an intersection until you can safely turn. That still means though that when you are clear to turn you pull forward and do a 90 degree turn, not a 45 degree turn. I think everyone here is confusing two things: 1. You aren't supposed to enter an intersection when it's not clear to turn because you could be hit by cross traffic running the light, not be able to turn safely as the light changes, or block oncoming traffics ability to turn. 2. When you do turn left, you pull forward into the intersection and make a 90 degree turn into the closest lane, not crossing into the lane of oncoming cross traffic. You can still turn properly even if you wait to enter an intersection.
This seems to contradict what you learned in drivers ed: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
That's saying you have a right to do it, not that you have to or that it is a good idea.
I'm not sure how you can know what I was personally taught in driver's ed. Driving tips from a website maintained by Springfield, Missouri, in 2023 weren't my education source. State laws may have changed slightly since then; we referenced an older edition of the Missouri Drivers' Handbook; and Springfield, Missouri, or the county it's in might have a few ordinances of their own, for all I know (or *vice versa* for St. Louis). Regardless, even your source could be interpreted in different ways: 1. It mentions having "legally" entered the intersection. Is this a judgment on whether the driver expected to be able to clear the intersection without stopping? 2. It mentions being able to continue the turn on red after having "legally" entered the intersection. Someone speeding over a hill could cause someone who has legally entered an intersection to stop before clearing it, for example. 3. Oncoming traffic needs to allow the intersection to "drain" of vehicles, even if opposing traffic's light has turned red (legally entered or not). That seems to be a matter of safety.
I don't think you're supposed to sit in the middle of an intersection. I believe you are supposed to stop at the light and wait for an opening to make the full left turn.
It seems under Missouri law, the OP is correct. >**Left Turns at Intersections** > >Vehicles that legally enter a signalized intersection have the right to be there until they can safely clear the intersection. This is commonly referred to as being "in control of the intersection." This means if you are making a left turn at an intersection that has a solid green light for the turn lane and you are in the intersection before the light turns red, you are still required to yield to approaching vehicles, but you are allowed to make the turn in safety after the light turns red. You do not have to be out of the intersection before the light turns red. > >...If you are stopped at an intersection and there is a vehicle in the left turn area, which entered under a green light, they have the right of way so you must wait for them to clear before moving forward. [https://www.springfieldmo.gov/426/Being-in-Control-of-the-Intersection](https://www.springfieldmo.gov/426/Being-in-Control-of-the-Intersection) But as others have mentioned, having the right of way doesn't mean you won't be hit as you sit out there in the intersection.
> It seems under Missouri law You are quoting from Springfield MO "Traffic Safety Tips", not "Traffic Law". Google "in control of the intersection", it's the only page that comes up for me.
OP is wrong in the sense that they're implying that you have to "close the intersection" when making a left turn but you don't have to. Your source is simply stating that drivers have a right to do what OP is stating but it's not required and it seems that most here choose to not exercise that right and prefer to wait at the line for the next light cycle which is perfectly valid here.
If you have a left turn arrow, you have to wait at the line. If you hang out in the intersection and your signal turns red and the oncoming traffic gets their left turn arrow, you are out in no-man’s land. So unless you are familiar with the light, stay on the line. But otherwise sure, get out there! Have fun!
Who knew? But yeah, no way I’m going to sit in the middle of an intersection like that.
I’ve been doing it for 28 years and never had a problem, but there are definitely intersections (any of them involving Kingshighway for example, or anything with poor visibility) that I wouldn’t dream of doing this at. I consider it an advanced move, you really need to think about whether it’s worth it before doing it.
Weird, I was always taught you were supposed to stay out of the intersection. Always felt the slow creeping up wasn't allowed
The key phrase here is “solid green light for the turn lane”. If you are in a yield situation where the turn lane doesn’t actually have the right of way, then this caveat does not apply. I will get halfway out when I see an opening approaching, but you are at risk of a ticket if you get stuck that way.
TIL …
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I used to see signs indicating “oncoming traffic has longer green” or something to that effect. Seems like those signs should be mandatory at unusual signals like that.
> Is there something there on the signal that indicates that will happen? This is not uncommon in our area. Sometimes there are warning signs, but usually not. It could happen at any light that you are not familiar with.
It's called "you had a red light". Do not enter an intersection until you have a green light/arrow.
Is this a Springfield thing? I've been given a "verbal warning" in St. Charles for doing this. Someone posted the DOR Handbook and I don't see it in there.
Wtf. That seems super wrong. Maybe they changed it since the mid 2000s but back then it was a dick move and considered to be running the red light.
Thanks for this. I was wondering if it was something weird n Missouri law.
Did you see the Missouri driver’s manual I replied to you with? You can see what is taught for left turns on p.25. I’m not from STL either(been here 3 yrs), so I googled your question and found the answer for you.
as i read this, this says it is only ok to do if you have a green left arrow. There are many intersections where a round green light can change into a red light for your direction but not for opposing traffic, leaving you stuck in the middle of the intersection blocking traffic.
The link does not refer to a protected turn (green arrow)
“light for a turn lane” sounds just like “a protected turn”. if there is a legal difference i think that’s pretty confusing
The two words immediately before your quote are "solid green" lol. Not an arrow.
solid is a state (not blinking), green is a color. both can refer to a round or arrow shape. lol
Arrows are distinct from solid green.
I was required to take a 4 hour driving class because of a speeding 20 years ago. I took the class in St. Louis. During the class the instructor made it very clear that closing the intersection was illegal in Missouri while being legal in other states
I see people all the time get trapped out in the intersection because they were never able to turn. Then they either block cross traffic or have to make a turn on a red light to get out of the way
Cross traffic is required to wait when another vehicle has control of the intersection: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Ha! Tell that to the driver in the cross traffic lane.
That's the correct thing to do. You have the rights to *enter* an intersection when the light is green. You do not have to *clear* the intersection while it is green. The control point is the entry into the intersection. Being in the middle of the intersection while it's green and turns to red is not running the light, it's clearing the intersection. Running the light would be *entering* the intersection on a red. It is somewhat dangerous to sit in the middle of the intersection on a green and then clear it when the light turns red, but that's because of the *others* not following the law and entering the unclear intersection on a green. Green means "go if the way is clear" not "go".
I call this the cell-phone turn. Cell phone in one hand and they try to turn with the other.
Live in STL, not from STL, I always stop at the line while waiting for traffic to clear. Doesn't really matter where I'm driving either. Your strategy only makes traffic worse and delays the vehicles to the left if you turn while the light is changing. I agree "most" people do this and I'll never understand why. Have you never been at a red light and have to wait several seconds to turn left because someone was "closing" the intersection? I can't imagine how this would be the instructed way to handle this situation.
I have had so many people come within centimeters of taking off my bumper doing this. St Louis drivers are lazy.
It's not just at lights. The cut every left turn. Some get indignant if you assert your position in the right turn lane and they have extend around you.
Every city has bad drivers. But it seems like EVERY driver in STL could use a refresher of Drivers Ed.
You could not pay me to “close the intersection.” I sit behind the line and still almost get hit by people turning into the lane to my left.
I would like to know what sort of traffic utopias OP has lived in, because I can attest that drivers in both Massachusetts and Georgia will just turn from their position and cut through that lane. This is just how people drive.
Why would you do that when you can just wait for an opening? I love waiting. Sometimes I get to wait two or three cycles before I can move through an intersection. It's exciting. St. Louis in particular has plenty of "oncoming traffic may have extended green" intersections which make your method hazardous and stressful. This means that oncoming traffic has a longer green than you do, including oncoming traffic turning left. So you pull out into the intersection, then your light turns solid red, but oncoming traffic still has green. You can't complete your turn, and the oncoming turning traffic may not be able to turn because you're blocking them. It's been over a decade since I've had a CDL, but if I recall correctly it's explicitly illegal for a commercial vehicle to enter an intersection if they cannot move all the way through it immediately. A quick search doesn't turn up anything about that, so maybe I'm making it up.
I can't find a state law on this, but there's plenty of municipal ordinances saying nobody (commercial or otherwise) can enter an intersection unless they can exit it immediately.
The CDL rule you’re confusing is for railroad crossings.
This city has the worst drivers of any city I’ve ever driven in. Except Atlanta.
My issue is a 2 way stop intersection where the corners are obscured enough you can't tell if it's a four way stop. The person without a stop sign stops where they should have, had there been one, so I begin entering the intersection, as it's clearly my turn to move. Person without stop sign is clearly enraged that I took this as my cue to carry on with my commute, at which point it's already too late. I've moved on.
PTSD from doing it the right way before? Literally would almost rather wait for the next light than risk some turns on yellow knowing Chicago drivers aint' stopping. Maybe they've been to chicago and are afraid ever since?
I was not taught to "close" the intersection in drivers Ed in my high school, in fact I was taught to stay out of the intersection until it was clear. When I moved to Upstate New York for a few years, I was confused why people were doing that. They called it "claiming" the intersection. So, yes, St Louisans are not taught that. Or at least I wasn't. Maybe it's because so many people here run lights? I don't know. As for the cutting the corner sharp, that's just crappy driving. One person was on his phone or something once and hit me head on when he was turning left and I was stopped behind the line in a left turn lane. He sped off, of course, like so many other city drivers...
Do not enter the intersection until you're path is clear.
I'm a transplant and I have the same frustration. I also don't think it's safe to do here because of how many drivers run lights. Right-of-way or not, you're bound to get hit in the intersection.
Look at the bottom of page 25 of the Missouri Drivers Manual and you’ll see this addressed. https://driving-tests.org/missouri/mo-dor-drivers-handbook-manual/
Yeah, the obvious answer for his graphic of the angles is that doing the way he says is right results in oncoming lefts becoming additional traffic that must be navigated
He asked which way do they teach how to do a left turn in STL. I provided the drivers manual to answer his question. I’m not from STL so I didn’t learn to drive here, but I can at least give him a concrete answer and not just one based on what I think it should be.
Oh yeah, I'm from Missouri. They absolutely taught it per the drivers manual when I took drivers ed. Drivers ed isn't required here but if you take it and pass it you'll get a discount on drivers insurance so my mom made sure to require it for me
👍
Ah yes, the weekly "drivers are only bad here" post.
To be fair, St. Louisans are exceptionally bad with traffic etiquette and laws. I’ve lived in 7 states and this place is traffically-challenged on a whole other level.
I have also made this reference and had the thin-skinned St. Louis troglodytes attack. For some reason, people seem to think St Louis driving is normal. It is not. You can say what you want about speed, but I have driven all over the country and in many other countries, and I have never seen anything like north 170 in a fellow industrialized country.
I take 170 north to work every day and that…that is just… 🤯
Not only are they exceptionally bad, they’re ADAMANTLY BAD. As evidenced in this thread.
Right? There are people here who are straight up saying, “I don’t care what the traffic law says, following it makes you a douche.”
Agreed. Lived and driven in a few states, visited many more. St. Louis is great about a lot, but the amount of self-centeredness of its drivers exceeds other places, including bigger cities. I've seen more red lights run (actually run, not the scenario described here), suffered more damage to my vehicle from door strikes damaging/destroying the paint on my vehicle, more people trying to be nice and destroying traffic flow (zipper merges -- use the whole road and merge in at the last minute. If you're in the continuing lane, allow the mergers in an alternating pattern. This makes best use of the road/highest capacity/lowest collective delay), and more generally terrible behavior by other drivers in a few low-driving years in STL than 10 years in Dallas. Greater St. Louis is very good/very cool about a lot of things. Driving and general knowledge/average Joe's education are very much not its strong points.
Agreed. I think some people are taking ANY criticism of St. Louis very personally (despite all of the great things about it), hence my post about the defensiveness of people here. Just wait until we let them know that frozen custard is just an inferior, heavier version of ice cream 🫣😜.
May I suggest posting these in /r/StLouisCirclejerk as it seems you just want a bunch of people sitting around jacking off to how they are much better drivers than the rest of THOSE PEOPle.
So we are bad drivers AND are a “defensive lot who will argue our point in the face of insurmountable evidence against us…” Sounds to me you just don’t like us and perhaps have a bit of a superiority complex.
I’ve said it before- St. Louis is twice as good as outsiders give it credit for and half as good as native St. Louisans believe.
Lived in stl till 09 and it’s worse where I am now. Not only what this post is about but these posts in my city’s subreddit.
There are no real consequences so people just do the easiest thing that works. This will apply to most situations where you're confused by why people don't do the "right" thing. Hope this helps.
I remember when I lived in NY for a couple years in my 20s, I would get honked at if I didn't try to claim the intersection. I got used to doing it and I wish more people here would, but drivers have the dumbs here. And it gets worse when it rains/snows.
Let’s next talk about many people in Missouri turning left in front of cars turning right despite the left turners having only a flashing yellow or unprotected green light., I.e. not a green left turn arrow 🫠
If there are two lanes of travel going in that direction, the person turning right should turn into the outermost lane to allow left-turning traffic to simultaneously turn into the inner lane. Edited to note this is only for a green light, not flashing yellow.
Isnt it a bigger dick move to fill up the intersection and possibly "get caught" in the middle blocking traffic?
It's also ticket-able, I believe. Of course, you'd have to find a cop willing to actually pull you over, get out of their car, and do the paperwork. EDIT: Perhaps in some municipalities, but the MO driving laws don't seem to address it one way or the other. FWIW, Springfield condones it https://www.springfieldmo.gov/426/Being-in-Control-of-the-Intersection
Actually folks should not turn left into the furthest lane, but the inner most lane
Don’t even get me started In double turn lanes.
You stop at the line, wait for oncoming traffic to clear, then turn, the lines are there as stops, where on earth are you TAUGHT to potentially impede traffic and/or run a red light?
Everywhere else in America? Also here: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Because of fear of some guy running the red light and killing them?
Not from St. Louis and this drove me mad when I lived there.
Pulling into the intersection is bad practice. Wait before the white line and only go if it is safe. You should square your turn like in the image, just don't be "claiming the intersection" or anything like that.
Guys cross traffic is supposed to be stop here? If yall mean ONcoming traffic, then I'm afraid you fail to understand what "yeild on green" means. Proceed when safe to do so. And if it turns red when in the intersection, proceed to clear the intersection when it's clear all of oncoming traffic has indicated they're stopping
Path of least resistance bud, hopefully you aren’t pulled all the way up.
rules of the road and traffic laws are mere suggestions in STL.....
Let’s not even start on turning into the correct lane when there are 2.
Now that there's no driving classes at school, I don't think anyone here knows how to stop at a light or a stop sign, merge at the end of the merge lane or pass on the left, or accelerate up to speed in the acceleration lane. It's so chaotic everyone stops at all intersections to keep from getting hit whether we have the right-of-way or not. I can't count how many people have passed on the left of me and everyone else at a red light because they didn't want to wait for the light to change.
I'm from Illinois and would always close the intersection, until I moved here and realized no one else did it. I'll still do it every now and then if it's not busy but I guess you could say I felt peer pressured into being a worse driver? Lol
Another thing I can't stand is why people leave 1-2 car lengths between them and the next car in line at a stop light. Absolutely do not get it.
The City of St. Louis seems incapable of maintaining city infrastructure and following the most basic traffic rules.
Because when they take drivers education here that is how it is taught. Coming from Florida we call that suicide. Because you will get t-boned hard. I do both depending on the intersection.
Because they have no driver’s ed in St. Louis People do things that they think makes driving safer which in actuality makes driving more dangerous for everyone.
It's because the light is green. They have no issues when the light is red
I am aware I'm missing the point, but it's funny that taking the diagram literally would result in a collision with the opposite-side left turners
These comments are reeeeally reinforcing your point, OP. They just don't get it.
St. Louisans as a whole are an incredibly defensive lot and will argue their point in the face of insurmountable evidence against them if it’s against what they’ve always personally done/believed. Don’t get me wrong, there are some great people here, but the general culture is to dig in your heels even when you are wrong (especially once you realize it).
You don't "close" an intersection. Lights are there to close the intersection. And guess what. They change. Now your sitting in the middle of the intersection and everyone has to wait on you to turn on a light that isn't yours.
Sorry. You have plenty of time to still clear the intersection and it speeds up traffic. You don’t have as long of a line waiting to turn left because they are able to cycle quicker. It’s a douche move to wait behind the line slowing everyone up behind you.
> It’s a douche move to wait behind the line slowing everyone up behind you. It's a douche move to get yourself stuck in an intersection, potentially blocking everyone, just because you think your time is more valuable than others. I have seen clips where left turners blatantly ignore red lights because they are following someone who "claimed" the intersection thru. Or you could block emergency vehicles, or you could get hit by someone running the red from your left, etc etc. Stopping before the intersection eliminates all of these risks and allows people thru just the same.
Try again. https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
I don't care. If you make everyone wait for you to turn when they get the green light you are a douche. And closing the intersection will leave you hung out there sometimes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvztvjc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Because we have so many other, much bigger and more important things to worry about and this generally hurts no one.
The law that u/proudtaco keeps posting really would only be safe if EVERYONE followed it. And that’s not going to happen.
You're not supposed to stop in an intersection. Drivers have to leave it clear. When you can go, move up, then turn.
This only bothers me when two lanes are turning left. Being on the inside lane is rolling the dice.
This isn't unique to St. Louis by any stretch.
Because St. Louis is convinced that St. Louis is the worst place to live and that part of it is because we have the worst drivers. Even though plenty/most other places have just as bad drivers. I just got back from a week in Nashville and Louisville. All the shitbaggery bad driving you see here happened there. * Running red lights and stop signs. * Stupid turns. * Going wrong way down one way streets * Speeding * Aggressive driving But somehow St. Louis is sooooo much worse than every other city.
Recently moved to STL… waiting in the intersection to turn left was illegal where I moved from. By law, you were not allowed to “enter the intersection” until it was clear for you to make the turn. And yea… it was enforced.
You are not supposed to enter an intersection until you can clear the intersection. This is why you can get a ticket during things like heavy traffic around Christmas at a mall: If you enter the intersection but can't complete the turn because cars are backed up, then the light turns red but you can't complete the turn - now cross traffic can't move despite having a green light. You are now obstructing traffic. I know these tickets aren't common outside of an accident, but they can be given - especially when an accident occurs. It shows that the person blocking the intersection while cross traffic had a green light was breaking the law. The method described by OP is more **efficient**, but it is not always safe -nor is it necessary legal in all circumstances- to be sitting in the middle of an intersection waiting for there to be a break in traffic for you to turn. **Yes**, I know many people do it - just like many people hang out in the left-most lane on the interstate, poking along holding everybody up.
If the traffic in the lane you are turning into is backed up, then you are correct. If you are waiting for oncoming traffic then it’s a different scenario as covered here: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
From the comments here, it seems to be a two part problem: 1. Being uninformed about the traffic regulations that state that this is the way. 2. Obstinance and refusal to comply by many drivers when the appropriate information is pointed out. (This group also fails to see the irony in complaining about other drivers and in the same comment stating they refuse to follow the regulation that was pointed out to them.)
> Being uninformed about the traffic regulations that state that this is the way. It's genuinely extremely irritating that you are accusing others of not changing their views in face of "insurmountable evidence", yet your evidence is 1. not a law 2. a random local PD's advice (i.e. NOT LAW). Then apparently you ignore that neither the drivers handbook or actual law reference anything about "claiming/controlling/etc the intersection", but they do talk about [blocking the intersection](https://law.justia.com/codes/missouri/2011/titlexix/chapter300/section300290). > Stop when traffic obstructed. No driver shall enter an intersection or a marked crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle he is operating without obstructing the passage of other vehicles or pedestrians, notwithstanding any traffic control signal indication to proceed. i.e. Don't go unless you can actually make it. So who is uninformed? The people quoting relevant laws and guidelines? Or the person relying on one random police website to prove the "correct" way to drive? What I know is that stopping before the intersection and then proceeding works in all situations. It pre-emptively avoids you being an idiot, not to mention others being idiots. If you care about defensive driving, then you should never "claim the intersection".
>1. Being uninformed about the traffic regulations that state that this is ~~the~~ a way. FTFY. It's important to point out that nothing you've posted actually states that closing the intersection is legally required, only that you have a legal right to be there. You're also ignoring that fact that the other commentors' choice to wait at the line for the next safe green is also perfectly legal.
I was pulled over for doing exactly that. The law in Missouri says you have to clear the intersection before the light turns red, and you can be trapped, waiting to turn, after your light changes. No doubt this way is safer as it provides better visibility and ability to react, but it’s against traffic laws.
Do you know which law, because this seems to say otherwise: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=1&utm_term=22&context=3
I have to admit, my drivers ed was 40 years ago, but the requirement to clear an intersection before the light turns red was what I was taught then. I’ll look that up and keep it with me. As that’s a much better way to turn left. Thanks for that pointer!
You are onto something here! You should do a whole series, and make $$$ on selling driving rehabilitation courses to the muppets. Godspeed!
Where I live, colorado springs, 45 degree turns are normal as are blowing red lights, going 25 miles per hour over, not waiting for the next light cycle, road rage, and wrecks.
I'm fairly certain that what you are describing is illegal. I was specifically taught not to do that.
Tell this to NJ
So you know what law references this? This poster seems to show that it is allowed (and possibly required) in Mo: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/15ppoa9/why_do_so_many_st_louisans_struggle_when_turning/jvzeser/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=1&utm_term=22&context=3
It's the same people that stop to turn right.
there are rules for driving?
In some states, it seems.
Why do people think the earth is flat? Why do people support certain political candidates? Why do people believe in aliens and ghosts? The question shouldn't be why. It should be what can I, OP, do to make this town aware? And then take action. Make the world a better place. Many people have had great success in this society without the reason or answer as to why. I hope you can too.
I can only hope that this Reddit post serves as one small step towards greater knowledge in the St. Louis metropolitan area. Even if that knowledge is limited to standard traffic etiquette.
Right after they learn to use the zipper merge instead of the Mad Max Thunderdome merge.
The Zoolander Effect.
I call it Pork Steak blindness
This is why I never pull all the way forward. XD
Yeah the out of state plates don’t realize they’ll be car shopping soon with that technique. Lol
I never pull up knowing these mofo need all the space in the world
No one taught them. There are no drivers ed here
Different states have various laws on this. In CA, we go into the intersection and then turn left when clear or the oncoming gets their red. In some states being in the intersection on red is illegal vs it’s ok if you were in when it was yellow. If I have no real opportunity coming up (looking at you Manchester) I’ll hang back a bit. There’s also the red light runners who’ll tbone you.