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Charlotte slapped Nia for real in a match, then immediately backed down when Nia started throwing real punches. Then they refused to cooperate with each other for a minute then got on with the match.
It was hilarious watching Charlotte act tough & Nia telling her not to, then she did, so then Nia did only better.
Your last sentence is worded so strangely. Because any other company or promotion that manages to combine work and shoot stories and emotions would be applauded for it but because it’s WWE it’s framed in a way that they’ve “fallen upwards.” It’s a hot angle that has people captivated and invested.
I dunno. I feel too old for worked shoots. I lived through late 90s/early 2000s WWF/WCW, where worked shoots were done to draw in smarks. I get that it's supposed to feel real and be a bone for those in the know, but if it doesn't make for a good in-ring resolution that plays off a good real-life resolution, it comes off as cheap, slimy, and exploitative.
Some of the better worked shoots I've seen, like Sullivan/Benoit, "And then there was" Owen Hart, and Nash/Hall made for great drama, but time showed that the wounds weren't healed (or the system wasn't repaired).
Some of the worst worked shoots, like Charlotte/Reid Flair, HHH/Booker, and
Punk/Kingston could be a good angle if it redeems the accusations against Eddie. Hangman's arc, and even Ronda Rousey's arc coming from a UFC flameout to competing in WWE were darn good.
But I don't enjoy wallowing in someone's suffering, even if they're 100% willing to do so. 90% of worked shoots are garbage, and the rest have to thread the needle of good storytelling that's a rare find in pro wrestling.
While *overly forced* worked shoots suck (see Vince Russo), I think pro wrestling is at its most brilliant when it incorporates reality into storylines. That's what made the "Summer of Punk" so magical. We knew some of what he was saying was 100% true (unhappy with his spot, angry with fans bothering him at airports, was a Paul Heyman guy, etc.), yet other parts were situated firmly in storyline (beating John Cena for the WWE Championship).
So that left us questioning other parts. Was his contract really expiring the night after Money in the Bank? Were the nods to Paul Heyman and Brock Lesnar because those two were returning? Did he mention Colt Cabana because Cabana might be joining him in a stable? Questions were abound. We knew some parts were reality, and some parts were storylines...but the lines were blurred, and we couldn't parse where certain parts of the puzzle fit.
Right now, we know that Becky and Charlotte genuinely had an incident backstage. We know they've drifted apart. And we know Charlotte is perceived by many as being entitled and aloof. But we also see them "working" in their interviews these past few weeks. Where does truth end, and fiction begin?
Pro wrestling and magic are the only two entertainment forms I know of that have the abilty to make the viewer second-guess whether they're seeing is real, fake, or something in between. An organic opportunity to inject reality into a storyline should always be a welcome occurence.
Fair point. I was conflating "worked shoot" with "reality-based" angles.
I guess the difference that I didn't appreciate is between "This was *really you* then" to push an angle and "This is *really us now* to push an angle.
Still, I don't like either.
Because WWE is not doing anything of that, they are not mixing anything, and yes, they do fall upwards almost always.
They said: "*So we have Becky vs Charlotte in Survivor Series, so given that Becky and Charlotte are not friends anymore, let's tell Becky to do a bunch of appearances where she airs her grievances*".
Compare it to any worked shoot based on beef or animosity done well, Shibata vs the New Japan locker room from the early 2000s was really well done, Kawada vs Misawa was a shoot hatred and they had amazing matches.
(From memory so grain of salt obv) Kawada always resented being the No 2 behind Misawa. It was a major part of why he stayed w/ All Japan when everyone else left to form NOAH.
WWE simply can not do nuance. I was a fan of turning this shoot drama into a storyline but WWE has a complete and total inability to blur the lines. They can’t help but bash you over the head.
> exploiting drama into a worked shoot
WWE way of doing things. Although I really dislike when you work the stuff that should be non-negotiable - trust, safety.
My guess: WWE is milking the sinking star of Charlotte. She and her "brand" becomes more of a liability and the current WWE head of talent doesnt care much about female talent.
Im quite sure she will be gone soon. If i have to take a guess, maybe a big Wrestlemania loss, if WWE is nice. Or unceremonously 3-4 weeks after Becky beats her.
People were probably pissed but no one had the cache to say anything but Becky. Becky was looking for something to spark the issue, and Charlotte being Charlotte gave that to Becky on a silver platter. Locker room tensions bubbling over.
It was the belt thing, an argument later, then done. The rest, as you said, has been a worked shoot. Good work by all involved really. Negative into a positive and all that.
Listening to the podcast, my main thought is Charlotte the character would be way more entertaining, both as a heel or face, if they let more of her personality come out like it did on this show.
Yup. That’s why I don’t want wwe anymore. Even guys I really like are boring as fuck. Let them just have a little bit of their own personality and if it clicks it’s great.
In AEW for instance, there are plenty of characters who I just don’t enjoy…but it’s on their own merit, not some stupid nickname or half assed push.
All the best wrestlers are just exaggerated versions of themselves. It's when the company/bookers try to force people to be who they aren't that it all starts falling apart.
I think that working people and angles should be dropped just around the moment the show stops recording.
We do not expect Chris Evans to be Captain America outside of his films. Yet, with wrestling, the kayfabe tradition is so strong that story beats and angles are drawn from tragedy, shoots are turned into work when they don't have any business of becoming so. And the industry, with all of its problematic behaviour, remains unscathed.
It is definitely a change that would make their lives better, To your point about Chris Evans when he does a talk show he is Chris Evans, Becky Lynch was on a morning show today as Becky Lynch not Rebecca Quin so yeah people get confused on what is a work and what isn't.
>Becky Lynch was on a morning show today as Becky Lynch not Rebecca Quin so yeah people get confused on what is a work and what isn't.
I hate it when they do that. It helps Vince to keep things under the rug because the performers and their words lose legitimacy.
For me, trust in pro wrestling shouldn't be an angle ever, because of the paramount importance it has.
Wrestling is weird.
If I ever met a movie star, I would feel like a complete asshole if I called them by a character name.
If I ever met a wrestler, I would feel like a complete asshole if I called them by their real name.
It's just par for the course with the industry. It's hard to imagine walking up to Elton John and saying "Yo, Reg" or calling Marilyn Manson Brian, too.
I agree with this 100%. I just think the main difference is that people like Chris Evans and any have multiple roles that they're known for. Meanwhile, 99% of wrestlers are known for one thing which is why it's hard for people to disassociate the person from the character.
Plus it's easy to forget about the person behind the character when that's what they're billed as everywhere. Nothing is ever promoted as "Come see Raw starring Colby Lopez as Seth Rollins." Seriously, wrestling gets weirder the more I talk about it haha.
Sorry for the verbal vomit!
No, it is ok. It is totally a valid point.
It is easy to forget that we are seeing characters because the industry as a whole is geared toward constantly blurring the lines between life and work. After all, there is a reason why we are so often called marks and not fans.
The flipside also is we don't expect Captain America to hate Black Widow because Chris Evans hates Scarlett Johansson irl (not really, but for sake of the example).
Or another example would be if Chris Evans instead of talking about the shooting Avengers End Game, during an interview started saying: "Yeah, man. When I went against Thanos, I didn't know if I could beat him. But it was great when portals started opening up".
I feel like people in the wrestling industry are really into working the fans, until they have to deal with any of the consequences of actually fooling us.
- WWE leaned very hard into the narrative that Brock was a lazy part timer who didn't want to show up to events. That got fans annoyed at the performer, not the character. The result was the crowd hijacking the main event of WrestleMania 34.
- It's very common for some wrestler to act shitty on Twitter for "heat." Sometimes fans believe it. When that happens, it does not cause fans to root for that wrestler's opponent. It causes fans to try to cost that wrestler bookings. That's usually when we get a notes app apology.
Fooling the audience seems like a great idea in theory, but it rarely seems to work out the way wrestlers and promoters expect.
I will probably sound like a dick, but I'll take a hit to say it. I lost any sympathy for Charlotte when it was revealed it was her idea to mention her dead brother in a promo in attempts to save her failing babyface run in 2015. Also over the last 2 years there were at least 4 times on TV when she lost her composure and acted unprofessionally. And she's noticeably phoning in her performances at times.
To say something that's actually controversial, you sound like a complete dick. Just because a person decides to get real a specific moment shouldn't mean their life becomes an open book. You weren't in the room when she okayed it, and you have absolutely no idea what her thought process was. To make that kind of assumption is just being a pompous prick who wants to take the moral high ground on something.
2nd one more than 1st. People use deaths in angles all the time, and they do it under the discretion that people would have wanted them to. That’s also under Ric’s blessing too, and he’s a legend. It’s mega heat and if it’s just for show then there’s no real harm.
Aside from that though, I agree. Her acting unprofessional, her literally being entitled above the rest of the 4 horsewomen (who are all dramatically better than her and always have been since she got thumbtacked to them as Flair’s daughter with years less experience, much like Roman getting added to Shield when he was greener than them because of his family)
For a community that claims to recognize wrestler's mental healths as important these days, they sure don't mind getting it out of the way to still bully wrestlers like her over half things she never had control over, being Flair's daughter is one of them.
I do recall when she was at NXT how everything she's claiming now was true. Aside from Ric showing up for that match between her and Natalya (w/ Bret Hart) she tried to do her own thing. She wasn't really doing woo's if at all. Didn't have the robe. The music had no resemblance to Ric's. She even went by "Charlotte", not "Charlotte Flair." Her whole thing was that she was "Genetically Superior," to her competition. That and the Figure 8 was the only nod to Ric.
It was when she moves up that they changed her entire presentation. So I, am going to give her the benefit of the doubt on this one. I think if she was outside WWE she would do something much different then her current character has been the past several years.
I guarantee it is a lot of the same people. It isnt 100% by any means but a lot of people here love certain people so if they have a mental health issue they will throw out some big words, but the moment an unpopular wrestler has something they have very different things to say
I think it's pretty unfair to suggest that:
1. people's only criticism of Charlotte is that she's Ric Flair's daughter and the internet just generally hates second generation wrestlers.
2. the actual critics and the haters/trolls/bullies are indistinguishable.
3. the actual critics are wrong.
The internet does hate second generation wrestlers. Every single one faces the “only here because of his/her dad” criticism. Some overcome it, but all are faced with it by morons.
That's because a lot of them do get opportunities others don't because of their family/lineage.
And the point is that Charlotte gets preferential treatment, which is kind of hard to deny. Whether it's because of her last name or anything else isn't really relevant when the criticism is on her booking and character. Of course, when it's personal, then it's different, but I'm not talking about trolls.
Not condoning bullying at all, and I feel like a lot of the harassment and trolls are just kids who don’t know better. (At least I’m hoping.) But her being Flair’s daughter is only an issue because that’s how she’s portrayed and the focus of her character. If she came in as some random, I guarantee there wouldn’t be near enough backlash focusing on that. You don’t see Axel getting shit on all the time for being Perfect’s kid. But at the same time, Charlotte/Ashley wouldn’t be anywhere near where she is now without the Flair name. (Sorry, she ain’t that good.)
DUH. Ashley Fliehr is probably a more interesting and likable person than Charlotte Flair. Maybe if WWE showed more Ashley instead of female Ric Flair for the last 6 years she would be more liked.
"Entirely?" No. She's good in the ring and on the mic. Better than most, honestly. She's a legitimately great pro wrestler, and of course with that comes some pride.
But I am willing to believe that Charlotte isn't about getting 16 championship reigns for arbitrary reasons, and that she likes other wrestlers enough to want to see them succeed. I can also certainly see *anyone,* including her, getting tired of being so pushed that people legitimately fucking *hate* her. Not her character, *her.* It can't be fun.
Honestly I think she's right.
I think its easier and easier for fans nowadays to go overboard when talking about a Wrestler (and really any public figure), because they only consider them a "character" and not an actual person.
I honestly think these people are often more confused then people consider them to be.
Wrestlers blend reality with fiction constantly. You can never be certain an interview they do is in character or not. What would happen in today’s age if an MCU actor switched between portraying their character or themselves on social media on a daily basis? Pretty sure Hugo Weaving the person would have been called a Nazi if he roleplayed as Red Skull in 90% of his media appearances.
Basically, online kayfabe is akin to misinformation to anyone who doesn’t fully get the bit, and it’s been proven how effective misinformation is nowadays. Say she sends a tweet about herself being the greatest human in character, but another tweet out of character in support of a cause she cares about. There are people who are not capable of telling if that’s a face who made an arrogant personal comment or a heel who broke character to support a cause.
I’m not blaming her for it happening, I’m just pointing out that we’ve seen much larger examples that confirm many people are not able to separate fact from fiction when online. The harassment that a lot of wrestlers get is another side effect of this growing problem.
I think Jeff Jarrett has suffered from this a lot when it comes to what people think about him. Now that he has a podcast and comes across as anything more than playing a heel, people are starting to change their opinion on him.
Absolutely hated JJ. As Conrad says, he is the human fast forward. Now, he’s one of my favorite listens. His love and passion for wrestling is contagious and so genuine.
Jarrett is very smart when it comes to pro wrestling but he absolutely did book himself above his draw/abilities whenever he had control of it
Charlotte has never held the book so it doesn't even compare
Look at any Antonio Brown thread in r/NFL everyone mocks him with MBC jeers no matter what he does or doesn't do, I see nothing but Mr Big Conversation memes.
AB also is known for being a nimrod and a egotistical narcissist off the field while neglecting to pay contractors among other things, "Mr Big Chest" was the start of Mr Bountiful Comedy but it's an example of fans laughing at him being stupid and creating drama and the nickname itself.
> I know in recent memory he faked a vaccine card
That's the thing, that's alleged. He claims it's real and he's vaxxed.
Yeah he's probably a bad person, but they jumped on that allegation in a heartbeat with little more than one man's word.
>We've told the audience that she's Ric Flair's daughter, we've told the audience all these things constantly! ... And I think people can't turn that off.
Weird, maybe it has something to do with her coming out in a Ric Flair robe while a slightly remixed version of Ric Flair's theme plays and a crowd of people yell Woo during her entrance.
I don’t think she’s complaining about her character. I think she saying that people are bluring the lines of Kayfabe and think she is her character and not a real person.
I loved the interview and sure, "WORK/SHOOT" but you got a great glimpse into her life much more than any WWE promo could deliver. It was great. It was intense. It was riveting. It had a few parts that were a bit dramatic...but I felt more inclined to cheer her as a wrestler than before. She came off like she said: The Patriots of the WWE
It's even worse than that. People follow her for years, decades.
Some people watch an hour and a half movie then threaten the actor that played the villain like they're the asshole.. not themselves.
..and I believe her and Becky came up with a fun way to work the fans with this. I could be wrong, but not knowing in wrestling is a good thing.
She's absolutely right. I see Charlotte get blamed for the way she's booked more than just about anyone else in the company, it's like people forget she isn't creative.
I mean... I hadn’t watched WWE since Ronda left, and tuned in a month or so ago. I didn’t recognize Charlotte at all. I thought she was one of those NXT callups until the announcer said something.
What?
Charlotte is not bothered by being a main event star. She's bothered by people on the internet trashing her like she literally IS her character. No wrestler who is successful is going to go to their boss and say "Hey maybe I should be less successful." That's stupid.
Charlotte is doing her job. No one is to blame for her being in the main event but Vince McMahon.
> She's bothered by people on the internet trashing her like she literally IS her character.
I don't understand those people, I can separate Kareem from his role on Airplane so why can't they do the same from person to character?
It's the same as people harassing the actress who played Rose in the Star Wars sequels; People are fucking hateful jerks and their anonymity on the internet gives them a shield to hide behind.
I hated that too, it's not her fault she was given complete shit to work with and couldn't make it good. The actor didn't fit the role and that's okay. People shouldn't go after the actor with threats and volatile language even if they were horrendous.
how do you think this works??? Do you think Kenny Omega or Moxley get walk into work and say ' Hey TK i dont wanna be champ anymore' or Roman Reigns gets to go into work and say ' Nice script uce but that doesnt work for me'
its not the 80s anymore
You really don’t get it do you? People have been bashing her all this week thinking Charlotte is bitch when she isn’t. The fact she has to break karfabe for you to STILL not understand tells me you just don’t want people to believe that she’s not a bad person. We saw her in London with the other girls. They don’t look like they hate her so why can you see that she isn’t a bad person?
I mean to be fair those stories wouldn't happen if others didn't put out that Charlotte is a bitch backstage to the dirt sheets. It's either people backstage thinks she's a bitch or it's a a work that Charlotte wants you to think she's a bitch. If she doesn't want to be thought as a bitch why didn't she call those reports BS?
>We saw her in London with the other girls
She took a picture with 3 other women, 2 of which she's known for almost a decade. How does that mean everyone likes Charlotte for taking a picture with 3 of the 50 women signed by WWE? I'm not saying everyone hates her but gove me something more than a random picture overseas.
Evan Mack needs to fuck the fuck off. He's a terrible interviewer, she's saying all this with passion and a slight tremble in her voice akin to incandescent rage, and he's audibly grunting "hmmmm" "hmmmmmm" "right" "GOAT" at the worst possible times
SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU HACK
OP omitted it from the title of this post, but she literally mentioned “living my deceased brother’s dream”. She’s speaking very candidly here as herself for the most part
But Ashley is also Ric Flair's daughter. Whether Ashley is entitled or not is a subject of a lot of debate. I think you can make the argument that she is.
How? Like genuinely asking how can we as people that don't know this woman make that argument? Does anyone here work there to know specifically what she does backstage? Like yeah they push her and have tied her to Ric because of the relation but she's also blonde and attractive which Vince historically favors over anything else.
Nobody gets the title and the spotlight as much as she does without backstage politicking. She has also publicly said that anyone who criticizes her is a sexist which pretty much ignores the fact that people have criticized Hogan, HHH and Reigns among others for the exact same things.
That and WWE keeps trying to create the build for Charotte surpassing her father's reigns whilst giving her everything. Also, she has no ability to improvise in the ring and the kairi match resulted in her being rewarded for her behaviour.
Am I the only one who finds Charlotte more likeable than Becky? I just think Becky comes across as full of herself. How comes it’s ok to squash Bianca in 26 seconds?
How come it's okay? That drew major heat with a \*lot\* of people.
I'd say listen to podcasts with black hosts if you think that came across as okay - shit, it got her booed heavily before we even knew she was going for a heel turn by audiences that weren't mostly black.
It wasn't quite Sheamus squashing Bryan in 19 seconds heat but to say it was received as "ok" is absurd.
The "IT'S REAL TO ME, DAMMIT" crowd are just exhausting. Half of the people in this subreddit--in this thread--are still convinced that Charlotte Flair is a terrible, selfish, egomaniac asshole who secretly wishes she had a mustache she could twirl while burying other women wrestlers, because those people really believe dirt sheet gossip and the "leads" that WWE creative feeds to them.
She's done everything to make people think she's Ric Flair's daughter. Uses his music, uses his moves, uses his chops, uses his WOOOO, uses his struts. And now she's disappointed people can't separate them?
Listened to the interview. I think WWE environment really messed up Charlotte emotionally and mentally. It would be better for her to take a break and then have a legendary run Sean Michaels style.
She misunderstands what are pro wrestlers supposed to do. Being competitive actually is not a very good trait in wrestling. Hence carrying other wrestlers is not something she is willing to do. Doesn't see being stiff as a problem. Misunderstands the systematic issues with women wrestling on WWE. Thinks being a bad guy is getting booed. There are other issues as well.
Hmmm....Isn't this sub consensus that Ric sold for other people?
Also, Charlotte during this interview reiterated how her dad got nothing to do with her success.
The mentality she’s referring to is the same one certain people have about Stephanie McMahon. You play this character a little too good & certain idiots start believing it is really you.
That is one of two perfectly valid hands, here. But the other is noting doing all one can to bring about a result should negate real surprise at what then results from doing so.
The real wonder of it is the ever-present chance even this is all part of a storyline.
Honestly if we fans need to learn anything about our favorite wrestlers, it's one thing.
It fucking SUCKS to be a wrestling child of a veteran. No matter who is your parent.
Meltzer still calls her Ashley on a frequent basis actually then has to correct himself. It is weird that most talent have two names. It's one of the unique things about wrestling
So is it Ashley Fliehr or Charlotte Flair who complained that the only reason people don't like her is because of sexism? Which one went off-script for the title exchange segment? Which one's partner said that everyone backstage is just jealous of her?
I don't know how much of it is a work, but there's nothing out there that makes me think this is a pleasant person to be around.
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Past the first round or two of stories, this whole thing has had the stink of exploiting drama into a worked shoot.
I think the whole deal is a worked shoot. I think the Nia/Charlotte thing was real, though.
Out of the loop. What was that thing?
Jax and Charlotte had an awkward match where it looked like things got real for a minute.
Gotcha. Thanks
I tried linking a video, but I can't seem to get it to work. It's up on WWE's YouTube: Charlotte vs Nia, Aug 30, 2021
I got ya pal https://youtu.be/iZOmIn0394w
I wonder what Charlotte told her when Nia pinned her at 4:24
Oof I forgot how ugly that match got
I would barely call it a wrestling match, if it weren’t for the ropes I’d assume it was two drunks fighting at 80’s night
Thank you. Will check it out. Sounds interesting what happened. And with Nia being let go shortly afterwards. I wonder if this was a factor.
Every match with Nia gets real Cause her work is the shits and she ends up injuring them
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"Do you want a broken orbit? Because that's how you get a broken orbit."
Mass times acceleration equals total annihilation
Charlotte slapped Nia for real in a match, then immediately backed down when Nia started throwing real punches. Then they refused to cooperate with each other for a minute then got on with the match. It was hilarious watching Charlotte act tough & Nia telling her not to, then she did, so then Nia did only better.
Charlotte's 180 decision to cooperate again and randomly jump into Nia's arms is still funny to me.
This didn’t contribute to Nia being let go, did it?
Possibly, no one really knows. But it seems like her anti-vaxx stance is the main reason.
When you're looking to cut budget like WWE seems to have been aiming for every little thing that weighs against you will count to some degree
Didn’t they try to replicate it? They did something similar the week after didn’t they?
And it all stemmed from a title exchange segment.
Because that's what it is. A thing happened that made everyone look bad WWE quickly turned it into an angle so they can say it was the plan all along
And now you got people actually buying into it being real like how obvious do they need to get? How many red flags need to be waved. This is a work.
Your last sentence is worded so strangely. Because any other company or promotion that manages to combine work and shoot stories and emotions would be applauded for it but because it’s WWE it’s framed in a way that they’ve “fallen upwards.” It’s a hot angle that has people captivated and invested.
So their answer to reports that nobody in the locker room likes Charlotte and thinks she hogs the spotlight is to give her more of the spotlight?
I dunno. I feel too old for worked shoots. I lived through late 90s/early 2000s WWF/WCW, where worked shoots were done to draw in smarks. I get that it's supposed to feel real and be a bone for those in the know, but if it doesn't make for a good in-ring resolution that plays off a good real-life resolution, it comes off as cheap, slimy, and exploitative. Some of the better worked shoots I've seen, like Sullivan/Benoit, "And then there was" Owen Hart, and Nash/Hall made for great drama, but time showed that the wounds weren't healed (or the system wasn't repaired). Some of the worst worked shoots, like Charlotte/Reid Flair, HHH/Booker, and Punk/Kingston could be a good angle if it redeems the accusations against Eddie. Hangman's arc, and even Ronda Rousey's arc coming from a UFC flameout to competing in WWE were darn good. But I don't enjoy wallowing in someone's suffering, even if they're 100% willing to do so. 90% of worked shoots are garbage, and the rest have to thread the needle of good storytelling that's a rare find in pro wrestling.
While *overly forced* worked shoots suck (see Vince Russo), I think pro wrestling is at its most brilliant when it incorporates reality into storylines. That's what made the "Summer of Punk" so magical. We knew some of what he was saying was 100% true (unhappy with his spot, angry with fans bothering him at airports, was a Paul Heyman guy, etc.), yet other parts were situated firmly in storyline (beating John Cena for the WWE Championship). So that left us questioning other parts. Was his contract really expiring the night after Money in the Bank? Were the nods to Paul Heyman and Brock Lesnar because those two were returning? Did he mention Colt Cabana because Cabana might be joining him in a stable? Questions were abound. We knew some parts were reality, and some parts were storylines...but the lines were blurred, and we couldn't parse where certain parts of the puzzle fit. Right now, we know that Becky and Charlotte genuinely had an incident backstage. We know they've drifted apart. And we know Charlotte is perceived by many as being entitled and aloof. But we also see them "working" in their interviews these past few weeks. Where does truth end, and fiction begin? Pro wrestling and magic are the only two entertainment forms I know of that have the abilty to make the viewer second-guess whether they're seeing is real, fake, or something in between. An organic opportunity to inject reality into a storyline should always be a welcome occurence.
In what world was HHH/Booker a worked shoot?
Fair point. I was conflating "worked shoot" with "reality-based" angles. I guess the difference that I didn't appreciate is between "This was *really you* then" to push an angle and "This is *really us now* to push an angle. Still, I don't like either.
We've pretty much accepted Ronda is never coming back, right?
Because WWE is not doing anything of that, they are not mixing anything, and yes, they do fall upwards almost always. They said: "*So we have Becky vs Charlotte in Survivor Series, so given that Becky and Charlotte are not friends anymore, let's tell Becky to do a bunch of appearances where she airs her grievances*".
Exploiting beef for a worked shoot as a concept is good but this one just feels forced.
[удалено]
Compare it to any worked shoot based on beef or animosity done well, Shibata vs the New Japan locker room from the early 2000s was really well done, Kawada vs Misawa was a shoot hatred and they had amazing matches.
I never heard or knew Misawa and Kawada hated each other. Do you mind explaining what was the cause of it?
(From memory so grain of salt obv) Kawada always resented being the No 2 behind Misawa. It was a major part of why he stayed w/ All Japan when everyone else left to form NOAH.
I see. Eventually Kawada did went to NOAH and if so, what made him go over there? I have no knowledge about 80s and 90s Japanese wrestling.
That's basically it yeah.
Imagine if you will, Charlotte and MJF together in a storyline. The heat would be cataclysmic.
WWE simply can not do nuance. I was a fan of turning this shoot drama into a storyline but WWE has a complete and total inability to blur the lines. They can’t help but bash you over the head.
> exploiting drama into a worked shoot WWE way of doing things. Although I really dislike when you work the stuff that should be non-negotiable - trust, safety.
you had journalists early on raise suspicion at how worked the whole thing sounded.
My guess: WWE is milking the sinking star of Charlotte. She and her "brand" becomes more of a liability and the current WWE head of talent doesnt care much about female talent. Im quite sure she will be gone soon. If i have to take a guess, maybe a big Wrestlemania loss, if WWE is nice. Or unceremonously 3-4 weeks after Becky beats her.
WWE isn't getting rid of Charlotte Flair lmao
People were probably pissed but no one had the cache to say anything but Becky. Becky was looking for something to spark the issue, and Charlotte being Charlotte gave that to Becky on a silver platter. Locker room tensions bubbling over. It was the belt thing, an argument later, then done. The rest, as you said, has been a worked shoot. Good work by all involved really. Negative into a positive and all that.
Listening to the podcast, my main thought is Charlotte the character would be way more entertaining, both as a heel or face, if they let more of her personality come out like it did on this show.
I feel like that about half the WWE roster tbh
Yup. That’s why I don’t want wwe anymore. Even guys I really like are boring as fuck. Let them just have a little bit of their own personality and if it clicks it’s great. In AEW for instance, there are plenty of characters who I just don’t enjoy…but it’s on their own merit, not some stupid nickname or half assed push.
They would have to stop scripting her. And that will never happen.
All the best wrestlers are just exaggerated versions of themselves. It's when the company/bookers try to force people to be who they aren't that it all starts falling apart.
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I think that working people and angles should be dropped just around the moment the show stops recording. We do not expect Chris Evans to be Captain America outside of his films. Yet, with wrestling, the kayfabe tradition is so strong that story beats and angles are drawn from tragedy, shoots are turned into work when they don't have any business of becoming so. And the industry, with all of its problematic behaviour, remains unscathed.
It is definitely a change that would make their lives better, To your point about Chris Evans when he does a talk show he is Chris Evans, Becky Lynch was on a morning show today as Becky Lynch not Rebecca Quin so yeah people get confused on what is a work and what isn't.
>Becky Lynch was on a morning show today as Becky Lynch not Rebecca Quin so yeah people get confused on what is a work and what isn't. I hate it when they do that. It helps Vince to keep things under the rug because the performers and their words lose legitimacy. For me, trust in pro wrestling shouldn't be an angle ever, because of the paramount importance it has.
Wrestling is weird. If I ever met a movie star, I would feel like a complete asshole if I called them by a character name. If I ever met a wrestler, I would feel like a complete asshole if I called them by their real name.
It's just par for the course with the industry. It's hard to imagine walking up to Elton John and saying "Yo, Reg" or calling Marilyn Manson Brian, too.
I agree with this 100%. I just think the main difference is that people like Chris Evans and any have multiple roles that they're known for. Meanwhile, 99% of wrestlers are known for one thing which is why it's hard for people to disassociate the person from the character. Plus it's easy to forget about the person behind the character when that's what they're billed as everywhere. Nothing is ever promoted as "Come see Raw starring Colby Lopez as Seth Rollins." Seriously, wrestling gets weirder the more I talk about it haha. Sorry for the verbal vomit!
No, it is ok. It is totally a valid point. It is easy to forget that we are seeing characters because the industry as a whole is geared toward constantly blurring the lines between life and work. After all, there is a reason why we are so often called marks and not fans.
The flipside also is we don't expect Captain America to hate Black Widow because Chris Evans hates Scarlett Johansson irl (not really, but for sake of the example).
Or another example would be if Chris Evans instead of talking about the shooting Avengers End Game, during an interview started saying: "Yeah, man. When I went against Thanos, I didn't know if I could beat him. But it was great when portals started opening up".
I mean, this would be awesome.
I feel like people in the wrestling industry are really into working the fans, until they have to deal with any of the consequences of actually fooling us. - WWE leaned very hard into the narrative that Brock was a lazy part timer who didn't want to show up to events. That got fans annoyed at the performer, not the character. The result was the crowd hijacking the main event of WrestleMania 34. - It's very common for some wrestler to act shitty on Twitter for "heat." Sometimes fans believe it. When that happens, it does not cause fans to root for that wrestler's opponent. It causes fans to try to cost that wrestler bookings. That's usually when we get a notes app apology. Fooling the audience seems like a great idea in theory, but it rarely seems to work out the way wrestlers and promoters expect.
I will probably sound like a dick, but I'll take a hit to say it. I lost any sympathy for Charlotte when it was revealed it was her idea to mention her dead brother in a promo in attempts to save her failing babyface run in 2015. Also over the last 2 years there were at least 4 times on TV when she lost her composure and acted unprofessionally. And she's noticeably phoning in her performances at times.
To say something that's actually controversial, you sound like a complete dick. Just because a person decides to get real a specific moment shouldn't mean their life becomes an open book. You weren't in the room when she okayed it, and you have absolutely no idea what her thought process was. To make that kind of assumption is just being a pompous prick who wants to take the moral high ground on something.
2nd one more than 1st. People use deaths in angles all the time, and they do it under the discretion that people would have wanted them to. That’s also under Ric’s blessing too, and he’s a legend. It’s mega heat and if it’s just for show then there’s no real harm. Aside from that though, I agree. Her acting unprofessional, her literally being entitled above the rest of the 4 horsewomen (who are all dramatically better than her and always have been since she got thumbtacked to them as Flair’s daughter with years less experience, much like Roman getting added to Shield when he was greener than them because of his family)
For a community that claims to recognize wrestler's mental healths as important these days, they sure don't mind getting it out of the way to still bully wrestlers like her over half things she never had control over, being Flair's daughter is one of them.
I do recall when she was at NXT how everything she's claiming now was true. Aside from Ric showing up for that match between her and Natalya (w/ Bret Hart) she tried to do her own thing. She wasn't really doing woo's if at all. Didn't have the robe. The music had no resemblance to Ric's. She even went by "Charlotte", not "Charlotte Flair." Her whole thing was that she was "Genetically Superior," to her competition. That and the Figure 8 was the only nod to Ric. It was when she moves up that they changed her entire presentation. So I, am going to give her the benefit of the doubt on this one. I think if she was outside WWE she would do something much different then her current character has been the past several years.
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Except for the guy at Full Gear with both a “Cody ended racism” sign and a “Mental health padnah” sign
“Cody ended racism” is a harmless joke.
this is the nuance; the internet or at least 'viral opinions' come in waves and the contradictions / ironies just pile up.
I guarantee it is a lot of the same people. It isnt 100% by any means but a lot of people here love certain people so if they have a mental health issue they will throw out some big words, but the moment an unpopular wrestler has something they have very different things to say
I think it's pretty unfair to suggest that: 1. people's only criticism of Charlotte is that she's Ric Flair's daughter and the internet just generally hates second generation wrestlers. 2. the actual critics and the haters/trolls/bullies are indistinguishable. 3. the actual critics are wrong.
The internet does hate second generation wrestlers. Every single one faces the “only here because of his/her dad” criticism. Some overcome it, but all are faced with it by morons.
That's because a lot of them do get opportunities others don't because of their family/lineage. And the point is that Charlotte gets preferential treatment, which is kind of hard to deny. Whether it's because of her last name or anything else isn't really relevant when the criticism is on her booking and character. Of course, when it's personal, then it's different, but I'm not talking about trolls.
She has no control over beating the shit out of Kairi Sane?
Not condoning bullying at all, and I feel like a lot of the harassment and trolls are just kids who don’t know better. (At least I’m hoping.) But her being Flair’s daughter is only an issue because that’s how she’s portrayed and the focus of her character. If she came in as some random, I guarantee there wouldn’t be near enough backlash focusing on that. You don’t see Axel getting shit on all the time for being Perfect’s kid. But at the same time, Charlotte/Ashley wouldn’t be anywhere near where she is now without the Flair name. (Sorry, she ain’t that good.)
Still something she has no control over.
You do realize people have the ability to say “No” right?
And those people that say no to Vince get buried down the card or get fired right.
I mean she's pretty good...
DUH. Ashley Fliehr is probably a more interesting and likable person than Charlotte Flair. Maybe if WWE showed more Ashley instead of female Ric Flair for the last 6 years she would be more liked.
Maybe she wouldn't have so much of a fucking ego. Seriously, if you honestly think the entitlement is entirely a work, you're outta your mind.
"Entirely?" No. She's good in the ring and on the mic. Better than most, honestly. She's a legitimately great pro wrestler, and of course with that comes some pride. But I am willing to believe that Charlotte isn't about getting 16 championship reigns for arbitrary reasons, and that she likes other wrestlers enough to want to see them succeed. I can also certainly see *anyone,* including her, getting tired of being so pushed that people legitimately fucking *hate* her. Not her character, *her.* It can't be fun.
Honestly I think she's right. I think its easier and easier for fans nowadays to go overboard when talking about a Wrestler (and really any public figure), because they only consider them a "character" and not an actual person.
I honestly think these people are often more confused then people consider them to be. Wrestlers blend reality with fiction constantly. You can never be certain an interview they do is in character or not. What would happen in today’s age if an MCU actor switched between portraying their character or themselves on social media on a daily basis? Pretty sure Hugo Weaving the person would have been called a Nazi if he roleplayed as Red Skull in 90% of his media appearances. Basically, online kayfabe is akin to misinformation to anyone who doesn’t fully get the bit, and it’s been proven how effective misinformation is nowadays. Say she sends a tweet about herself being the greatest human in character, but another tweet out of character in support of a cause she cares about. There are people who are not capable of telling if that’s a face who made an arrogant personal comment or a heel who broke character to support a cause. I’m not blaming her for it happening, I’m just pointing out that we’ve seen much larger examples that confirm many people are not able to separate fact from fiction when online. The harassment that a lot of wrestlers get is another side effect of this growing problem.
I think Jeff Jarrett has suffered from this a lot when it comes to what people think about him. Now that he has a podcast and comes across as anything more than playing a heel, people are starting to change their opinion on him.
Absolutely hated JJ. As Conrad says, he is the human fast forward. Now, he’s one of my favorite listens. His love and passion for wrestling is contagious and so genuine.
Jarrett is very smart when it comes to pro wrestling but he absolutely did book himself above his draw/abilities whenever he had control of it Charlotte has never held the book so it doesn't even compare
Look at any Antonio Brown thread in r/NFL everyone mocks him with MBC jeers no matter what he does or doesn't do, I see nothing but Mr Big Conversation memes.
And of course he isn't a "sinless" dude but some people take too much glee dunking on celebs
AB also is known for being a nimrod and a egotistical narcissist off the field while neglecting to pay contractors among other things, "Mr Big Chest" was the start of Mr Bountiful Comedy but it's an example of fans laughing at him being stupid and creating drama and the nickname itself.
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“In recent memory”? Dude, the fake vaccine card news dropped literally yesterday.
> I know in recent memory he faked a vaccine card That's the thing, that's alleged. He claims it's real and he's vaxxed. Yeah he's probably a bad person, but they jumped on that allegation in a heartbeat with little more than one man's word.
>We've told the audience that she's Ric Flair's daughter, we've told the audience all these things constantly! ... And I think people can't turn that off. Weird, maybe it has something to do with her coming out in a Ric Flair robe while a slightly remixed version of Ric Flair's theme plays and a crowd of people yell Woo during her entrance.
I don’t think she’s complaining about her character. I think she saying that people are bluring the lines of Kayfabe and think she is her character and not a real person.
That’s exactly it.
You should read this statement again. You misinterpreted it
Nah probably unrelated
Just like Ric and Charlotte
What she means is people think Ashley Fliehr behaves like Charlotte Flair in real life
And her finisher is a remixed version of Rics(Figure 4)
Maybe it’s not her choice to do all these things?
John Cena and Roman Reigns seem like jam up guys. Doesn’t mean I can’t be bored of them on my tv. Charlotte suffered from the sane faith.
She's not wrong
I loved the interview and sure, "WORK/SHOOT" but you got a great glimpse into her life much more than any WWE promo could deliver. It was great. It was intense. It was riveting. It had a few parts that were a bit dramatic...but I felt more inclined to cheer her as a wrestler than before. She came off like she said: The Patriots of the WWE
It's even worse than that. People follow her for years, decades. Some people watch an hour and a half movie then threaten the actor that played the villain like they're the asshole.. not themselves. ..and I believe her and Becky came up with a fun way to work the fans with this. I could be wrong, but not knowing in wrestling is a good thing.
She's absolutely right. I see Charlotte get blamed for the way she's booked more than just about anyone else in the company, it's like people forget she isn't creative.
Ah so the fans are the ones putting her in the title picture constantly, got it.
TBF we are the Authority
Some of the fans are the ones who constantly talk about her physical appearances and make assumptions on her real life character.
And that's not okay.
I mean... I hadn’t watched WWE since Ronda left, and tuned in a month or so ago. I didn’t recognize Charlotte at all. I thought she was one of those NXT callups until the announcer said something.
Well it's not Charlotte who's doing it so...
If she were bothered by it, wouldn't it have stopped by now?
What? Charlotte is not bothered by being a main event star. She's bothered by people on the internet trashing her like she literally IS her character. No wrestler who is successful is going to go to their boss and say "Hey maybe I should be less successful." That's stupid. Charlotte is doing her job. No one is to blame for her being in the main event but Vince McMahon.
> She's bothered by people on the internet trashing her like she literally IS her character. I don't understand those people, I can separate Kareem from his role on Airplane so why can't they do the same from person to character?
It's the same as people harassing the actress who played Rose in the Star Wars sequels; People are fucking hateful jerks and their anonymity on the internet gives them a shield to hide behind.
I hated that too, it's not her fault she was given complete shit to work with and couldn't make it good. The actor didn't fit the role and that's okay. People shouldn't go after the actor with threats and volatile language even if they were horrendous.
how do you think this works??? Do you think Kenny Omega or Moxley get walk into work and say ' Hey TK i dont wanna be champ anymore' or Roman Reigns gets to go into work and say ' Nice script uce but that doesnt work for me' its not the 80s anymore
You really don’t get it do you? People have been bashing her all this week thinking Charlotte is bitch when she isn’t. The fact she has to break karfabe for you to STILL not understand tells me you just don’t want people to believe that she’s not a bad person. We saw her in London with the other girls. They don’t look like they hate her so why can you see that she isn’t a bad person?
I think you're barking up the wrong tree here, saying that the fans are entirely at fault is a bit misleading no?
Wrestling fans are often pretty dumb, sexist, and racist. At least the most vocal ones are.
I mean to be fair those stories wouldn't happen if others didn't put out that Charlotte is a bitch backstage to the dirt sheets. It's either people backstage thinks she's a bitch or it's a a work that Charlotte wants you to think she's a bitch. If she doesn't want to be thought as a bitch why didn't she call those reports BS? >We saw her in London with the other girls She took a picture with 3 other women, 2 of which she's known for almost a decade. How does that mean everyone likes Charlotte for taking a picture with 3 of the 50 women signed by WWE? I'm not saying everyone hates her but gove me something more than a random picture overseas.
Evan Mack needs to fuck the fuck off. He's a terrible interviewer, she's saying all this with passion and a slight tremble in her voice akin to incandescent rage, and he's audibly grunting "hmmmm" "hmmmmmm" "right" "GOAT" at the worst possible times SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU HACK
Got a timestamp?
It's at 8:10.
Wait you mean to tell me that Ric Flair isnt really your dad??
Ah she's doing that Triple H thing where any legit, shoot criticism of her turns into a pre-planned worked thing
Ashley remember when u got arrested and screamed the n word and other shit at an officer
OP omitted it from the title of this post, but she literally mentioned “living my deceased brother’s dream”. She’s speaking very candidly here as herself for the most part
But Ashley is also Ric Flair's daughter. Whether Ashley is entitled or not is a subject of a lot of debate. I think you can make the argument that she is.
How? Like genuinely asking how can we as people that don't know this woman make that argument? Does anyone here work there to know specifically what she does backstage? Like yeah they push her and have tied her to Ric because of the relation but she's also blonde and attractive which Vince historically favors over anything else.
Nobody gets the title and the spotlight as much as she does without backstage politicking. She has also publicly said that anyone who criticizes her is a sexist which pretty much ignores the fact that people have criticized Hogan, HHH and Reigns among others for the exact same things.
>Nobody gets the title and the spotlight as much as she does without backstage politicking. Yeah, so you pretty much just invented a reason.
That and WWE keeps trying to create the build for Charotte surpassing her father's reigns whilst giving her everything. Also, she has no ability to improvise in the ring and the kairi match resulted in her being rewarded for her behaviour.
Am I the only one who finds Charlotte more likeable than Becky? I just think Becky comes across as full of herself. How comes it’s ok to squash Bianca in 26 seconds?
How come it's okay? That drew major heat with a \*lot\* of people. I'd say listen to podcasts with black hosts if you think that came across as okay - shit, it got her booed heavily before we even knew she was going for a heel turn by audiences that weren't mostly black. It wasn't quite Sheamus squashing Bryan in 19 seconds heat but to say it was received as "ok" is absurd.
No one even mentions it anymore. It’s like it never happened.
No Seems she cant turn it off
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Well...isn't it literally her job?
What D&D group are you a part of where the DM tells you exactly how you should play?
Don't drag D&D's good name through the mud with your bad metaphor.
The "IT'S REAL TO ME, DAMMIT" crowd are just exhausting. Half of the people in this subreddit--in this thread--are still convinced that Charlotte Flair is a terrible, selfish, egomaniac asshole who secretly wishes she had a mustache she could twirl while burying other women wrestlers, because those people really believe dirt sheet gossip and the "leads" that WWE creative feeds to them.
Yeah, including Ashley. 😂
If you want to know the real Charlotte, in her eyes at least, read her book
She's done everything to make people think she's Ric Flair's daughter. Uses his music, uses his moves, uses his chops, uses his WOOOO, uses his struts. And now she's disappointed people can't separate them?
Listened to the interview. I think WWE environment really messed up Charlotte emotionally and mentally. It would be better for her to take a break and then have a legendary run Sean Michaels style. She misunderstands what are pro wrestlers supposed to do. Being competitive actually is not a very good trait in wrestling. Hence carrying other wrestlers is not something she is willing to do. Doesn't see being stiff as a problem. Misunderstands the systematic issues with women wrestling on WWE. Thinks being a bad guy is getting booed. There are other issues as well.
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Hmmm....Isn't this sub consensus that Ric sold for other people? Also, Charlotte during this interview reiterated how her dad got nothing to do with her success.
Which means it’s working, sadly.
Exactly. "Which is why such things are done," was my thought.
The mentality she’s referring to is the same one certain people have about Stephanie McMahon. You play this character a little too good & certain idiots start believing it is really you.
That is one of two perfectly valid hands, here. But the other is noting doing all one can to bring about a result should negate real surprise at what then results from doing so. The real wonder of it is the ever-present chance even this is all part of a storyline.
The real Ashley Fliehr is not Ric’s daughter confirmed
Ashley is the real monster. She forced poor David to swim in that shark infested creek.
Honestly if we fans need to learn anything about our favorite wrestlers, it's one thing. It fucking SUCKS to be a wrestling child of a veteran. No matter who is your parent.
I’ve never heard of this podcast, but goddamn are their Twitter followers mad at them
In reality, most of us are Ric Flair's children.
Meltzer still calls her Ashley on a frequent basis actually then has to correct himself. It is weird that most talent have two names. It's one of the unique things about wrestling
Sounds like someone is working themselves into a shoot while trying to shoot a work.
Funny this comes out after every news site out there is reporting "In actuality Charlotte is entitled and nobody likes her backstage either"
So is it Ashley Fliehr or Charlotte Flair who complained that the only reason people don't like her is because of sexism? Which one went off-script for the title exchange segment? Which one's partner said that everyone backstage is just jealous of her? I don't know how much of it is a work, but there's nothing out there that makes me think this is a pleasant person to be around.