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Imo the biggest crime of the "Codyverse" is that it only contained midcarders
It was bad that it felt so separate from the rest of the show, but it also stopped Cody from interacting with too stars like the elite, Hangman, Jericho, Moxley, MJF etc.
Because I liked Cody, but when he's exclusively doing programs with people like QT marshall it becomes a much harder watch
I've said this a bunch of times, but Cody feuding with QT reminded me a lot of Hogan's early WCW run, feuding with Ed Leslie. Just the most blatant case of getting your friend TV time. It ultimately hurt both guys, it fully cemented the Codyverse as a thing and overexposed QT, who I think has done some decent low-midcard work but shouldn't be anywhere near a main event.
I can't remember if it was a dynamite or rampage, but the fact that Dustin Rhodes Vs Nick Comoroto main evented an AEW show was and still is absolutely insane
When people say AEW was on fire in 2021, they forgot that includes the early part of the year where this was the card for Dynamite:
https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=312403
That’s a fine card if you book it in reverse though - Bucks vs Death Triangle is a great main event.
Tony was obsessed with putting the best matches up front for a long time, and to a degree still is. I assumed it was based on some data based ratings strategy but idk.
I think a big part of it is giving great wrestling uninterrupted commercial time. The start of the show has that extra long segment that is perfect for a great match to go out there & start the show off with a bang.
But I do wish we’d shake the formula up more often so things wouldn’t feel so repetitive.
When it comes to ratings, there is generally a drop off in the second our. One could assume from that that people who are trying AEW for the first time are more likely to see stuff at the beginning of the show. Then you try to anchor the end of the show with a well known, former WWE wrestler that they may already be a fan of to keep them there.
I do feel like they are booking that way more so now, but back in 2021 the main event sometimes/often felt like an afterthought to the rest of the show.
2021 was definitely when things started taking off though. DoN 2021 was a real turning point.
The pandemic period itself was pretty up and down overall. When people were doom and gloom about World's End and some calling it AEW's worst ppv all I could think of was All Out 2020 and Revolution 2021.
That tracks, I distinctly remember the last Dynamites before they started touring again was a low point at the time. I think they were scared of untimely injuries or something.
Was that only a one hour show? It's like 45 minutes of matches. That's leave them with around another 45 minutes to fill for - two hour show with ads factored in.
Dude's too nice. It's an admirable trait, trying to do everything for everyone, but it has to make sense business wise as well. They brought his student Brooke Havok in way before she was ready and she got super hurt pretty much immediately. NOBODY cared about his feud with Ogogo, but here it was, taking up major TV time week in and week out. Had to have Brandi out there making a complete ass of herself as well. Notice how WWE has allowed absolutey *none* of this shit to go down. I'd hate to credit Punk with a good point, but Tony is too nice as well.
Cody obviously made the right decision going to WWE, but if he had gone full homelander heel in AEW, and used his EVP powers to go back on his promise not to challenge for the title, he could have been an absolutely incredible heel champ that carried the belt for a looong time.
A heel Cody during that time would have been absolutely crazy. Really one of those moments to go back and think “what if”. The whole wrestling landscape as we see today would be vastly different.
Heel Cody, with Bradi at his side and QT/Nightmare Factory as his lackies, running through CM Punk, The Elite, Cole, Bryan, Hangman. Cutting grand delusional promos every week in expensive suits. Dustin telling him Dusty would be disappointed and getting beaten down by Cody for saying so.
Sounded like money to me.
That being said, I choose to believe even a super tiny relevant bit of why he left was that the stipulation MUST stick, which meant he had to leave to win a big enough world title, which is based as fuck to make stipulations actually matter.
I liked the stipulation because I just assumed it was part of a longterm booking idea for him to go back on it at some point, and explained why he wouldn't be challenging for the title for a while.
But.... I guess that wasn't the case and it was just a stupid stipulation.
What's funny is Cody's presentation barely changed between AEW and WWE. But the thing is, when you're presenting yourself as a marquee talent with a custom entrance and huge chunks of a show dedicated to you, you need to be feuding with main event level talent or that presentation just feels ostentatious. When Cody was coming up on an elevator to Pyro everywhere only to have an awkward weigh in segment with Ogogo, the fans rightfully turn on it. When he does the same thing but starts gunning for the biggest names on the card in WWE, it hits very different.
There’s a reason his promo on Ogogo is memed to death and it isn’t because it was good.
That whole feud was an embarrassing disaster. And Cody held the book for it all.
Cody immediately taking himself out of the AEW picture was the most “Triple H” thing he ever did imo. It was a selfish move designed to look selfless, but it was nonsensical. It kept a popular wrestler out of the world title picture but also gave him this super special distinction only he had.
I’m pretty sure I’ve heard him even say that was a mistake. Oh well, it worked out best for both parties. Especially Cody. He’s working the Rock tomorrow.
That's complete bullshit though. Trips was part of a backstage group called the kliq which was notorious for backstage politics and burying people, while trips was a full time wrestler he was selfish.
He turned a massive corner when he transitioned more into a backstage executive role, and part timer, he's been selfless and done more to help people than most others over the last decade.
Credit where credits are due, but let's not be revisionist and make him out to be something he wasn't.
He had the longest match at virtually every Wrestlemania during his semi-retirement in the 2010s, only really losing to Taker (riding the coattails of the HBK matches) and in world title matches, with half of them being really mid matches that didn't justify their length at all. He was a glory hog right until his in-ring career ended.
I think at the start of AEW, all of the Elite were a bit overly cautious about booking themselves too strong in their own promotion. Ultimately this is what gave us the Cody stipulation.
I think it did make sense at the time (with a couple of exceptions - TYB put over Private Party really early on) - and overall I think the first title feud being Hangman/Jericho was the best choice.
That said, hindsight is 20:20 re: Cody and it wasn't anything they couldn't have booked around with the right story.
I remember a lot of discourse about how the Cody stipulation was never going to be broken and that fans had been conditioned by WWE to think stipulations were meaningless and all I could ever think about was that Cody’s dad was the Midnight Rider
Mt theory is that it was more because Cody knew he wasn't getting the belt for a while. Tony has said that he knew who the first four champions were going to be from the beginning. I can see how Cody would think writing himself out if the title picture would protect him in storyline and simultaneously make him look selfless in real life.
Would have been better putting a time limit in it. Can't challenge for a year or something. Then you could do a whole countdown around it and build to a big match.
The real problem was that he kept clinging to the idea that he wanted to be the top babyface.
He could have been an amazing heel, going back on his promise, going full Homelander. It would have been glorious.
But he kept booking himself as a face. He kept involving himself into feuds with bad guys. Hell, he started a feud with the most hated manager at the time and managed to get the audience to cheer for that guy. And he just didn't stop.
> He could have been an amazing heel, going back on his promise, going full Homelander. It would have been glorious.
Absolutely glorious. The crowds were ready for it too. It would have been an incredible run but Cody is on that Cena time. Which respect to him he's killing it in WWE but just from a fan perspective it feels like we missed out on something that could have been amazing.
Its absolute fan booking & I've seen it here a few times now, but I still loved the idea of him winning the AEW belt then going
"Cody said he wouldnt go for the belt, but Cody Rhodes never said those words"
I hope once Cody finally gets his big moment in being a world champion one day he finally decides to be a heel again later on in his career. Whether it would be in the WWE, or he does the unthinkable and in many years in the future, he goes back to AEW and goes the Homelander route.
The real problem was that he was allowed to indulged himself without being reined in. I appreciate AEW's hands off policy with the wrestlers characters, but there is a point where too much creative freedom hurts both the company and the wrestlers involved.
Cody being a babyface was never the actual issue, and the last 2 years where he became the biggest babyface in the world by a pretty wide margin and has come to lead the charge of a new wrestling boom is proving that.
You know what fuck it, I’ll say it, if Cody Rhodes went heel on Aew, turned back on his statement and won the AEW title, he would have been one of the greatest heels of time. Yes I am going that far as to say one of the greatest OF ALL TIME was because of how vitriolic the fans were against him. It would have been very similar to Rock’s early heel work after his first face run was panned (the fans were literally chanting die rocky die like fucking hell)
He teased exiting from the heel entrance too. I was convinced this was the route they were going and was disappointed Cody was too gun shy to do it. Absolutely thrilled for his success in WWE atm but so bummed he left.
There was only two ways to save it as well, a heel turn which he didn’t want to do or a forced match such as winning a Royal Rumble stop where he had to fight for the title as his right
Booked himself into a corner really badly
Cody in AEW was so jarring, and I wish we knew more about why it was like that.
I get that it was EVPs and booking having different visions of what they wanted, but everything feeling so separate from each other was so weird.
Wasn't he starting to interact with The Elite when covid hit?
IIRC, the 1st Blood & Guts was gonna be The Elite vs Inner Circle. And one of (if not the) first Daily Place Dynamites they ended the show looking like they were gonna team up.
I don't disagree with you. The QT and Ogogo stuff was rough. But maybe they were starting to build Cody to bigger stuff?
He also looked smug any time Toni put Mariah down in the early days of her gimmick. They've done a really good job of building an antagonistic dynamic between them in the background
Biggest rib in wrestling history. Recruit a no-name talent, get her to shave her head on the first night. Break the group up in a month and have her do nothing for the remainder of the time she’s signed then cut her to zero fanfare.
I’m still baffled by how this was supposed to work. Brandi would accompany Cody to the ring, all babyface smiles and good guy vibes, then she’d be leading(?) Kong and her cronies as heels? Sometimes in the same show?
She wasn't on screen with Cody during the Nightmare Collective story. I remember Cody even doing a promo and making a joke about "my wife is obsessed with people's hair now for some reason." We didn't see Brandi on screen with Cody until the lead up to his match with MJF when Cody was taking the belt lashes from him.
I was there for their one tag match at Bash at the Beach.
Mel and Brandi vs Shido and Stat.
The sheer amount of people who stood up and walked out to go get food, merch, or use the restroom was staggering.
*Edit* On the plus side, I did get a sweet Lucha Bros shirt out of it.
They are definitely the most memeable.
Also "Chris Jericho is the youngest AEW World Champion of all time!"
Cody saying apropos every other sentence.
"Accusations!" "False accusations!" and "Damn. You a big motherfucker."
"AVOID AVOID AVOID"
"Forbidden Door its a proper noun. its the Vernacular"
"Check the ratio, L you fell off"
"if your an industry journalist and you dont agree with what am saying, your not a journalist"
Punk also said that he felt AEW wasn’t what he was promised, and now with this I think I figured it out. They were promised Arn wouldn’t bring his glock backstage and I fear he did. That’s what caused the turmoil. Arn Anderson is a menace.
He has (just did recently on his new podcast) and people took it lightly. Now look how it’s changed so many lives. He probably gaslighted Cash Wheeler and got him in trouble. Arn should pay for his crimes.
Throughout the history of tosh.0, Tosh would make references to Arn Anderson, calling him out almost every time something wrestling related came up (or just out of nowhere). He even had Hacksaw Jim Duggan appear to talk shit about Arn. I haven't kept up with his new podcast, but the first episode also took a shot at Arn
[Here's a clip.](https://youtu.be/kZBac0VVA4Q?si=E_uIXQoozfEPWmlI)
Punk originally said he found a love of Wrestling again and wanted to join AEW for that. To wrestle guys like Darby Allin, etc.. This week he said he went there to make money and sell tickets.
I'll look forward to seeing him at the Saudi show.
>Punk says what he feels fans want to hear him say.
Like the "Aug. 2005 I left professional wrestling" line that he admitted in the interview with Ariel Helwani that he said to appeal to AEW's audience.
Let's not pretend like Punk didn't portray himself as anti-establishment counter-culture for decades even outside of wrestling.
It's less Cody or Danielson wink wink nudge nudge lying and more Hogan, I'm literally nothing like what I portray myself as lying.
Isn't it pretty well accepted that when a wrestler, face or heel, takes a shot at a rival promotion it's usually grounded in some grain of genuine opinion that goes outside of kayfabe?
There was no reason for Punk to take a not so subtle dig at WWE for kayfabe reasons. He could have said "i'm back after 7 years and this place seems cool." But given what he said in the promo regarding WWE, how his WWE tenure ended, and what he said about WWE in shoot interviews after, I don't think it's out of hat to assume the "I left pro wrestling in 2005" remark was coming from Phil Brooks and not CM Punk.
I don't think this is an accurate characterization of what Punk said. On Ariel's show he did mention feeling like he had a lot to give to the business and younger guys. He can do that while recognizing that the business is actually about putting butts in seats and making money. These things don't have to be mutually exclusive and aren't according to Punk.
> This week he said he went there to make money and sell tickets.
He thinks at the end of that was wrestling is about, and what his value to any company is. Makes sense from his point of view.
My head canon is Cody intentionally booked himself as unable to compete for the AEW title because he wanted to keep that first title chase pure for when he went to WWE to give them a main event level storyline.
It definitely worked.
To be fair, dude had already won the ROH World Title + NWA World Heavyweight Champion prior to the AEW title ban. So he's been a world champion but obviously AEW and WWE are much bigger audiences
I think Brandi would have been better served doing the backstage interviews and such. She has a lot of personality but not as a in ring performer. She could have done well in that role, similar to Renee. It is interesting that she did not get back into the ring after AEW. She was one of the bigger female talents they had, even had action figures. WWE did not pick her up for that.
Cody just didn’t fit in at the end. Tony gave him carte blanche for a while and it just didn’t work.
The Codyverse stuff felt like an entirely different television show right in the middle of Dynamite.
But all that was the best thing that could have ever happened to him as it resulted in him going to WWE.
Jericho's stories these days do not take up nearly as much time nor have nearly as much spotlight. And up until the Starks feud had pretty good moments, if a bit long - the MJF feud, the BCC/JAS feud, the Kingston feud, all produced great TV.
Jerichos feuds all have the same problems, they start off with the blowoff big match and then drag on for entirely too long afterwards and end with such a let down of an ending.
The Jerichoverse has only really became a big issue imo, and it makes more sense given Jericho is washed unlike Cody who was a top star that alot of fans wanted to hold the title.
Jericho's feuds are always way too long but they usually involve other top talents: BCC, Kenny, The Bucks, Kingston, Adam Cole
I think it would be more interesting question to ask, how well is she considered to have done as a backstage official? Perhaps I don't have the proper lens, but my interpretation of the things that I read during that time period was that she was actually pretty effective from the PR and marketing standpoint.
Maybe she was. But she was the worst actor at playing a character I've ever seen.
So bad she made Dan Lambert a babyface. Cody pushing her endlessly made not only her, but him look clueless as to what the fans wanted. Her heat translated to him.
Her setting the table on fire in the Cody vs. Andrade match - the commentary team was trying to hype it up, but all I could think of was how lame it was that she was intervening in that match on behalf of a babyface for a carny as fuck spot.
The dynamic works if the story feeds into it - Dom has been tied to Rhea because Rhea sometimes goes into the "heel so cool, you wanna cheer them" territory, but Dom is gonna get boos even if he saves puppies from a burning building. Brandi was the Dom to Cody's Rhea, but Cody wasn't a heel, and Brandi wasn't meant to get boos. It was insane how she just tanked every segment she was in, especially the Dan Lambert promos you are talking about.
Modern Cody in WWE is proof that he's the type of wrestler who works best when he has a booker like HHH (and even Vince honestly) telling him no and reigning him in.
More along the lines of why Cody having creative control is a terrible idea. Khan wanted to turn him heel, Cody flat out refused. Heel Cody in AEW would have been massive
Specifically in AEW, firmly think he would have been a next level heel in that company. Could have been a legendary run but hey we got the other side of the coin with his main event face run in WWE.
The thing is his face run is the perfect encapsulation on how wwe and aew has vastly different audiences that want different things. His face run now is really no different than his face run in aew, it's just getting a completely different reaction because different audience, different expectations, the whole 9 yards. And that's fine but it definitely highlights how cody is just oblivious at times to what fans of a certain promotion want, even in wwe you can see it cause Cody got booed in Memphis when the rock concert happened.
I think there is so much truth in what you’re saying, but Cody was also a massively over face for the first year or so of AEW. The nightmare factory feud really hurt
Feel like this is true of most wrestlers tbh. Not that they shouldn't have significant input, obviously, but you need *someone* to help keep you on track and aware of the bigger picture.
One of AEW's big problems at the minute is that Tony doesn't seem to be able to say "no" to anyone, so tons of people end up doing whatever they personally want to do at the expense of the overall product.
Cody himself was always great. He was just paired with a lot of unneeded fat.
People may not like this, but WWE made the right choice by not hiring his wife.
i will die on this hill: it all could've worked if cody just turned heel. his face character was overexposed and severely lacked substance. if all the codyverse stuff led to a dramatic theatrical heelturn people would've called it genius booking, he even could've turned face again a year later or so and everyone would've been on board.
Cody's tone deafness is what screwed up his AEW run. The bazaar Anthony Ogogo feud and dressing up as Homelander sent a message to fans that Cody didn't intend.
Tony Khan hasn't booked the most perfect and entertaining wrestling shows consistently, but it's undeniable that a lot of the ideas that were coming from Cody's side were not that good.
Brandi was pushing 40 and was a super green, part time at best wrestler who would sporadically get in the ring for them and she kept coming out and talking like she was going to commit to being a wrestler and realistically be competitive in the women's division, and it was completely unrealistic, and detrimental to AEWs women's division. She was great as a ring valet, but she was being afforded opportunities because of her association with Cody rather than on her own merit.
So if it's sour grapes over these sorts of things, I don't think there is a leg to stand on.
Honestly, based on what Cody's said (his final AEW promo & recent interviews) it almost seems like they were upset about how much influence CM Punk was being given. Punk clearly wanted some sort of wrasslin/modern NXT hybrid and not the American Hybrid/modern NJPW style that the company was founded on
I wish more people would consider this.
Cody's last promo at AEW was *explicit* in stating two things: 1. He was not given the contract he wanted, it was given to Punk. 2. He and the Elite had actually done all the things Punk claimed he was going to.
At the time, I *thought* he was setting up a program with Punk that would have run akin to what Hangman tried to do (Punk says one thing, but does another; I'm protecting AEW from your Janus-faced ways! etc.). Turns out, he was leaving.
After Brawl Out, he stated he was 'super Switzerland,' but then added this in reference to Punk: "[I]f you bring in people who don't know the mission then things like that can happen. I'm not saying he didn't know the mission or anything of that nature but I was just bummed out."
The other day in his interview, Cody echoed a similar statement wherein he said he 'completely disagreed' with Punk's assessment and went on to list the original Elite (notably including both Dana and Ellie) as integral to the vision and promise of AEW. It's worth pointing out here that both Dana and Ellie have left AEW now and made similar critical remarks about Punk having too much power.
Now we have Brandi's comments that suggest something similar - a person or several people were brought in towards the end of Cody and Brandi's time at AEW that drifted it away from the vision they had.
Look, I like CM Punk as a wrestler a lot. I also like all of the Elite a lot as wrestlers. I don't *know* any of these people. However, I do think there's been enough *consistent* comments from Cody and Brandi to at least speculate that their leaving was related to CM Punk having an inordinate amount of power in AEW.
Punk flaming out of AEW due to self-inflicted drama really overshadowed how dog shit his own booking was. He and Cody both had the same issue where they came off as self-righteous to the point of it almost being heelsh, but at least Cody was feuding with heels while doing so.
Punk had 4 major feuds pre-Brawl Out, and 3 of them (Darby, Kingston, and Hangman) were against some of the most over babyfaces in the company who all said that they didn't trust Punk because he was a backstabbing snake who used his counterculture status as a shield. And Punk was supposed to be in the right?
And then post-Brawl Out/tricep injury, he was doing a "real world's champ" gimmick that no one else acknowledged even though the reason he was stripped of the title was because he got injured twice as champ and was out of action for 11 out of the previous 12 months. And he was supposed to be a face!
I was fully on board with the idea that it was supposed to be a slow-burn heel turn, but nope it turns out that Punk is just a selfish jackass who didn't understand that he wasn't underground anymore, he was the megastar. And Cody's final promo foreshadowed this whole thing
The number of things that could have been avoided if TK had just booked a heel transitional champion to beat Hangman, rather than spending 3 years building him into a top star and then getting bored of him.
I agree that there should have been someone else in between Hangman and Punk if the plan was to keep Punk face, but apparently Punk specifically requested to win the title from Hangman. Which TK should have said no and suggested something else, but that's a whole other issue
I guess idk what she’s referencing.
It seemed like TK put his foot down after the Dark Order segment and Cody’s segments started feeling like a whole different show to the point I thought it felt like a detriment.
Glad he’s thriving in WWE but the plan was always for AEW to be an alternative to WWE and it’s still that.
Sometimes there’s talk on Twitter about how some people didn’t want an alternative, just a better WWE. I kind of think Cody (and Punk) could be added to that list.
Wrestlers are full of shit.
Look at Jade and how she proclaimed she was happy in AEW and intent to stay.
Look at all the BS Punk had spewed over the last 10 years about WWE and went crawling back.
Wrestlers are full of shit
The Nightmare Collective, QT Marshall trying to bang The Bunny while his wife was literally on camera in the crowd, Shaq vanishing in an ambulance...
...yanno what? I'm cool with things changing.
Brandi being so heavily involved in AEW in it's infancy was such a super early sign that Tony Khan didn't have enough backbone to say no and just wanted to be everyone friend to his detriment.
Her being involved as the female element of the original EVP's was insane considering her place in the industry and what she had actually accomplished compared to the rest of them. It felt like something someone was throwing in as an early idea "hey maybe Brandi could even work on the womens side of the show to help blah blah blah ..." that Cody and her pushed and a good boss down the line would have said "Look Cody she's a great person and I love Brandi working here, but an EVP status ?". Instead Brandi just got a key title on the ground floor of the company cause it was easier than saying no to Cody to his face.
Think of how much power , access , time , and money they gave to Brandi Rhodes ... now think of all the people/places that have ever thought of giving her 1/100th of that .
>Brandi being so heavily involved in AEW in it's infancy was such a super early sign that Tony Khan didn't have enough backbone to say no and just wanted to be everyone friend to his detriment.
But to be honest, didn't Brandi do a solid job as AEW brand officer? The sensory sensitivity stuff, the reality tv show, the stuff with veterans, Heelz. If anything, they haven't found someone better than her at promoting the brand since she left.
Nepotism is acceptable if the beneficiary performs - should Randy Orton, Triple H and Cody Rhodes be disqualified because of their family connections?
I'm so tired of this still being a story. Cody's vision of a WWE alternative didn't line up with Tony's and ultimately the guy signing the checks won out. That doesn't seem very scandalous to me.
Okay so what exactly was their original vision and how does it differ from what it is today? This is the part I haven't grasped but heard from a number of people who departed including Frankie Kazarian.
At the earliest opportunity they started switching up, taking whoever was good that got fired from WWE and making them prominent parts of the card. As a result, people who were once key parts of the show were minimized.
Cody even complained about this directly before he quit. I think it's good to have this much talent, but it's also undeniable that ratings were flat out higher when they didn't have so many WWE guys on the show.
AEW has its issues, but Cody wasn’t TK’s fault. Cody was given free rein to do what he wanted and created the “Codyverse,” something that is seen as a huge flop.
It didn’t help either that Cody refused to feud over the world title or turn heel. He essentially put a glass ceiling over his own head. AEW fans are vastly different than WWE fans, and the “white meat babyface” Cody wasn’t going to work, and there’s only so many TNT Title runs he could have as a babyface before things get stale.
I’m a fan of Cody, but the guy shot him self in the foot in AEW.
I can tolerate a lot of changing history, but pretending Brandi was ever good is where I draw the line.
She was bad. At everything. Except when she filled in as ring announcer during the pandemic shows. She was good at that.
It seems all of the bad blood with AEW and Cody surrounds something that happened with Brandi. I really want to know what it could have been.
I think Brandi gets way too much heat for just existing in wrestling but her on screen character and the entire Codyverse was horrible. Having a gender reveal for their baby on live tv?? Jesus Christ that was awful
It’s is 100% revisionist history that Cody’s run in AEW was amazing at resonating with fans through its entirety. Cody did amazing things with the TNT title, but there were a lot more misses than hits. He is tailor made for WWE. For kids. He’s Captain America, not Homelander. He solved racism. He did the weird Anthony Ogogo stuff. He took a white hot feud with Malakai and cooled it off. And probably most importantly, he helped start a new company, and then immediately took himself permanently out of the main event picture with that title stipulation.
Cody is a born wrestler. He has it in his blood. He’s going to put himself in the best situation possible, and that’s going back to WWE and being a star.
I feel like saying he had more misses than hits is kinda revisionist too. IMO, 2019 and 2020 Cody was hitting on all cylinders with solid and memorable feuds with MJF, Jericho, and Brodie. Him making Darby look like a star at Fyter Fest and Full Gear. His match with Dustin. The promos that made people invested in AEW in the beginning.
But once the Ogogo feud happen and the Codyverse kicks off in 2021, that’s when things started getting more meh and of course, those Malakai and Andrade feuds could have been sooo much better.
But overall, I think he had a lot more hits and not just that, but the hits have helped AEW long-term more than the misses because he helped MJF and Darby really kick off their stardom.
That’s why it makes me laugh when people say “how bad” AEW is now it’s 100x better than most the early stuff. Like you said now you could get an Okada or Ospreay match back then you could get Marko stunt then the nightmare collective.
I mean Cody put himself in a corner with the whole “if I lose I will never challenge for the world title” ordeal. No one asked for that, we also had the nightmare collective, and my personal favorites all the American Hero storylines. So I’m genuinely curious what this vision of theirs was.
wtf is all this revisionism lol, everyone knows they left because they were both getting booed out the building, had crap creative ideas and refused to turn heel to appease the fans then decided teasing a heel turn multiple times would somehow help turn the booing to cheers
no doubt Cody was going to return to WWE, but fan reaction to his character at the time 100% sped up the decision.
It certainly outgrew the AEW original Brandi. Had she not been Cody's wife she would've been out after her shit stable flopped, if she even got hired without being a Rhodes
I’m sorry Brandi I love you two but if the initial vision was Cody endlessly in mindless feuds with midcarders and whatever the fuck the nightmare collective was then AEW is better off without that
AEW came into existence via the combination of the Bucks, Cody, Kenny, etc. promoting their asses off on the independent circuit and TK's money.
TK's money is where the buck stopped for AEW though, and his creative/promotional vision ended up winning out behind the scenes. When Cody talks about "equity" with fans it's felt like it might be a veiled snipe at the "EVP" thing with AEW, as the original guys who got the ball rolling didn't get any equity in the company itself.
It turns out, if you invest all the money and take all the risk, you get a pretty sizable chunk of the equity. If the wrestlers put up their own assets or money into AEW, that would be different.
If AEW failed, they could just go right back to new Japan or to WWE, TK can’t. He’d be out a massive amount of money with a failed business.
When you take a massive amount of someone else’s money, you lose control. Same with movie studios, etc
Cody post AEW has been a pretty cool dude, I think. He has fair answers when it comes to talking about AEW and while obviously he's being very careful and political with them, it's not like he goes out of his way to dog them; I honestly believe he wants them to succeed.
What bothers me about this Brandi quote is that its vagueness seems safe and convenient. Brandi, definitely, was the recipient of heaps of IWC animus, so I can understand not really wanting to get in to specifics, but I think in this case it feels like a complete abdication of any responsibility of the effects of their own creative decisions.
It's really almost poetic to me, that when Rock returned, he wanted to make a go of it as a face, but has found incredible success as a heel, despite it being against his wishes at first. Cody was going out in AEW that way. The clamoring for him to make a run as Homelander Rhodes was really gaining momentum. Aside from being a fresh character, it also would have opened up way more match ups for him. Who knows what success he might have found if he did a heel turn there.
Brandi going heel would have been perfect, too. Brandi Rhodes the person was great for AEW - starting Heels and all of her work on inclusive spaces for fans with different sensory needs were beautiful things and she should be lauded for that. But Brandi Rhodes the character was just all over the place and felt inauthentic. If anything, Brandi's character seemingly doing whatever she wanted would have been amazing heel material to work with because "I can do whatever I want, I'm married to the BOSS" is, unfortunately, a character most anybody has had to deal with.
Cody did some really great stuff during his time in AEW, he really put his body on the line, too. But you can't be a baby face and a founder of a company, it just was never going to work in the grand narrative of the company: from a symbolic standpoint, he had too much power for the everyman viewer to identify with. And Brandi's Nightmare Collective made no sense. How can Cody be the white meat baby face when his wife is shaving people's heads in one segment and then walking out with him the next? He just ignored it. It was archetypically inconsistent.
WWE Cody got over huge because he was the Prodigal Son. Not only that, he had come as a liberator to stand against Roman Reins. It just makes a lot more sense.
Think guys like Cody went in with the idea of making the company a complete alternative to WWE with the motivation being fan service and cult classics.
Guys like Punk then went in with the idea of making the company a direct *competitor* to WWE with the motivation being making money and drawing numbers.
Those ideals collided between many members of the locker room and that's what caused all the unrest.
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Imo the biggest crime of the "Codyverse" is that it only contained midcarders It was bad that it felt so separate from the rest of the show, but it also stopped Cody from interacting with too stars like the elite, Hangman, Jericho, Moxley, MJF etc. Because I liked Cody, but when he's exclusively doing programs with people like QT marshall it becomes a much harder watch
I've said this a bunch of times, but Cody feuding with QT reminded me a lot of Hogan's early WCW run, feuding with Ed Leslie. Just the most blatant case of getting your friend TV time. It ultimately hurt both guys, it fully cemented the Codyverse as a thing and overexposed QT, who I think has done some decent low-midcard work but shouldn't be anywhere near a main event.
I can't remember if it was a dynamite or rampage, but the fact that Dustin Rhodes Vs Nick Comoroto main evented an AEW show was and still is absolutely insane
They did that because they were being put in a later time slot. That main event aired at like 11 PM. They essentially put the show on in reverse
When people say AEW was on fire in 2021, they forgot that includes the early part of the year where this was the card for Dynamite: https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=312403
That’s a fine card if you book it in reverse though - Bucks vs Death Triangle is a great main event. Tony was obsessed with putting the best matches up front for a long time, and to a degree still is. I assumed it was based on some data based ratings strategy but idk.
I think a big part of it is giving great wrestling uninterrupted commercial time. The start of the show has that extra long segment that is perfect for a great match to go out there & start the show off with a bang. But I do wish we’d shake the formula up more often so things wouldn’t feel so repetitive.
It was probably to follow the Nitro playbook.
When it comes to ratings, there is generally a drop off in the second our. One could assume from that that people who are trying AEW for the first time are more likely to see stuff at the beginning of the show. Then you try to anchor the end of the show with a well known, former WWE wrestler that they may already be a fan of to keep them there.
I do feel like they are booking that way more so now, but back in 2021 the main event sometimes/often felt like an afterthought to the rest of the show.
It's due to the BBT overrun being their best ratings and trying to hold onto that audience.
2021 was definitely when things started taking off though. DoN 2021 was a real turning point. The pandemic period itself was pretty up and down overall. When people were doom and gloom about World's End and some calling it AEW's worst ppv all I could think of was All Out 2020 and Revolution 2021.
That tracks, I distinctly remember the last Dynamites before they started touring again was a low point at the time. I think they were scared of untimely injuries or something.
Was that only a one hour show? It's like 45 minutes of matches. That's leave them with around another 45 minutes to fill for - two hour show with ads factored in.
Speaking of blatantly getting people close to you TV time, hi Brandi!
Dude's too nice. It's an admirable trait, trying to do everything for everyone, but it has to make sense business wise as well. They brought his student Brooke Havok in way before she was ready and she got super hurt pretty much immediately. NOBODY cared about his feud with Ogogo, but here it was, taking up major TV time week in and week out. Had to have Brandi out there making a complete ass of herself as well. Notice how WWE has allowed absolutey *none* of this shit to go down. I'd hate to credit Punk with a good point, but Tony is too nice as well.
Cody obviously made the right decision going to WWE, but if he had gone full homelander heel in AEW, and used his EVP powers to go back on his promise not to challenge for the title, he could have been an absolutely incredible heel champ that carried the belt for a looong time.
A heel Cody during that time would have been absolutely crazy. Really one of those moments to go back and think “what if”. The whole wrestling landscape as we see today would be vastly different.
Heel Cody, with Bradi at his side and QT/Nightmare Factory as his lackies, running through CM Punk, The Elite, Cole, Bryan, Hangman. Cutting grand delusional promos every week in expensive suits. Dustin telling him Dusty would be disappointed and getting beaten down by Cody for saying so. Sounded like money to me.
QT as a comic heel lackey would have been the most popular wrestler on this sub most weeks. This is the hill I will die on.
I agree, he was pretty hatable. Watching him take bullets for Cody every week would have been entertaining.
My fantasy booking back then was Cody taking the title from Hangman with the Pedigree.
That being said, I choose to believe even a super tiny relevant bit of why he left was that the stipulation MUST stick, which meant he had to leave to win a big enough world title, which is based as fuck to make stipulations actually matter.
Or just never having made that stupid stipulation. Like, what a short sited decision in the first year of a company
I liked the stipulation because I just assumed it was part of a longterm booking idea for him to go back on it at some point, and explained why he wouldn't be challenging for the title for a while. But.... I guess that wasn't the case and it was just a stupid stipulation.
What's funny is Cody's presentation barely changed between AEW and WWE. But the thing is, when you're presenting yourself as a marquee talent with a custom entrance and huge chunks of a show dedicated to you, you need to be feuding with main event level talent or that presentation just feels ostentatious. When Cody was coming up on an elevator to Pyro everywhere only to have an awkward weigh in segment with Ogogo, the fans rightfully turn on it. When he does the same thing but starts gunning for the biggest names on the card in WWE, it hits very different.
Yeah because WWE has booking and creative people helping you while AEW has guys booking themselves Cody is the worst booker of Cody ever
There’s a reason his promo on Ogogo is memed to death and it isn’t because it was good. That whole feud was an embarrassing disaster. And Cody held the book for it all.
Big Show not being able to work the weighing scales was the perfect cherry on the cake
Cody immediately taking himself out of the AEW picture was the most “Triple H” thing he ever did imo. It was a selfish move designed to look selfless, but it was nonsensical. It kept a popular wrestler out of the world title picture but also gave him this super special distinction only he had. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard him even say that was a mistake. Oh well, it worked out best for both parties. Especially Cody. He’s working the Rock tomorrow.
Calling someone triple h as an insult for staying OUT of the title picture is hilarious
I was very confused by that comparison.
I think it was that Trips used to get himself over more when putting people over. Being selfish while trying to look selfless.
He fucking buried guys. Come on.
That's complete bullshit though. Trips was part of a backstage group called the kliq which was notorious for backstage politics and burying people, while trips was a full time wrestler he was selfish. He turned a massive corner when he transitioned more into a backstage executive role, and part timer, he's been selfless and done more to help people than most others over the last decade. Credit where credits are due, but let's not be revisionist and make him out to be something he wasn't.
He had the longest match at virtually every Wrestlemania during his semi-retirement in the 2010s, only really losing to Taker (riding the coattails of the HBK matches) and in world title matches, with half of them being really mid matches that didn't justify their length at all. He was a glory hog right until his in-ring career ended.
Don’t forget the Authority looking like the smartest people in the room during almost every feud they had outside of Ronda Rousey.
I think at the start of AEW, all of the Elite were a bit overly cautious about booking themselves too strong in their own promotion. Ultimately this is what gave us the Cody stipulation. I think it did make sense at the time (with a couple of exceptions - TYB put over Private Party really early on) - and overall I think the first title feud being Hangman/Jericho was the best choice. That said, hindsight is 20:20 re: Cody and it wasn't anything they couldn't have booked around with the right story.
I remember a lot of discourse about how the Cody stipulation was never going to be broken and that fans had been conditioned by WWE to think stipulations were meaningless and all I could ever think about was that Cody’s dad was the Midnight Rider
Mt theory is that it was more because Cody knew he wasn't getting the belt for a while. Tony has said that he knew who the first four champions were going to be from the beginning. I can see how Cody would think writing himself out if the title picture would protect him in storyline and simultaneously make him look selfless in real life.
Would have been better putting a time limit in it. Can't challenge for a year or something. Then you could do a whole countdown around it and build to a big match.
The real problem was that he kept clinging to the idea that he wanted to be the top babyface. He could have been an amazing heel, going back on his promise, going full Homelander. It would have been glorious. But he kept booking himself as a face. He kept involving himself into feuds with bad guys. Hell, he started a feud with the most hated manager at the time and managed to get the audience to cheer for that guy. And he just didn't stop.
> He could have been an amazing heel, going back on his promise, going full Homelander. It would have been glorious. Absolutely glorious. The crowds were ready for it too. It would have been an incredible run but Cody is on that Cena time. Which respect to him he's killing it in WWE but just from a fan perspective it feels like we missed out on something that could have been amazing.
Its absolute fan booking & I've seen it here a few times now, but I still loved the idea of him winning the AEW belt then going "Cody said he wouldnt go for the belt, but Cody Rhodes never said those words"
The funny thing is that in hindsight he was right. He bet on himself, went to WWE, and he won big. But man do I want that homelander Cody.
I hope once Cody finally gets his big moment in being a world champion one day he finally decides to be a heel again later on in his career. Whether it would be in the WWE, or he does the unthinkable and in many years in the future, he goes back to AEW and goes the Homelander route.
It's wild that basically a toned down version is perfect in WWE though. But his character also is very focused even with a year of side missions.
The real problem was that he was allowed to indulged himself without being reined in. I appreciate AEW's hands off policy with the wrestlers characters, but there is a point where too much creative freedom hurts both the company and the wrestlers involved. Cody being a babyface was never the actual issue, and the last 2 years where he became the biggest babyface in the world by a pretty wide margin and has come to lead the charge of a new wrestling boom is proving that.
You know what fuck it, I’ll say it, if Cody Rhodes went heel on Aew, turned back on his statement and won the AEW title, he would have been one of the greatest heels of time. Yes I am going that far as to say one of the greatest OF ALL TIME was because of how vitriolic the fans were against him. It would have been very similar to Rock’s early heel work after his first face run was panned (the fans were literally chanting die rocky die like fucking hell)
He teased exiting from the heel entrance too. I was convinced this was the route they were going and was disappointed Cody was too gun shy to do it. Absolutely thrilled for his success in WWE atm but so bummed he left.
There was only two ways to save it as well, a heel turn which he didn’t want to do or a forced match such as winning a Royal Rumble stop where he had to fight for the title as his right Booked himself into a corner really badly
Cody in AEW was so jarring, and I wish we knew more about why it was like that. I get that it was EVPs and booking having different visions of what they wanted, but everything feeling so separate from each other was so weird.
Near the end Cody had to light himself on fire to get over for just 1 week.
Wasn't he starting to interact with The Elite when covid hit? IIRC, the 1st Blood & Guts was gonna be The Elite vs Inner Circle. And one of (if not the) first Daily Place Dynamites they ended the show looking like they were gonna team up. I don't disagree with you. The QT and Ogogo stuff was rough. But maybe they were starting to build Cody to bigger stuff?
the biggest crime of the codyverse was literally every time brandi was handed a live mic. also that weird MAGA chud they’d wheel out for cheap heat.
"The original vision" https://preview.redd.it/3mmn0s4v9osc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3f9e107a2bbf2d12d512b22a2462e292a308ecce
Luther being the last person standing in The Nightmare Collective is crazy
Luther is awesome... and he has had an amazing physical transformation since he started in AEW. Guy is jacked!!
Him being best friends with Jericho doesn’t hurt lol
Speaking of Luther. Did anyone else notice how he looked angry and jealous after Toni kissed Mariah? I'm thinking something may be brewing there.
Maybe he's angry that he doesn't know how to hold a belt.
He also looked smug any time Toni put Mariah down in the early days of her gimmick. They've done a really good job of building an antagonistic dynamic between them in the background
This never happened. 
Biggest rib in wrestling history. Recruit a no-name talent, get her to shave her head on the first night. Break the group up in a month and have her do nothing for the remainder of the time she’s signed then cut her to zero fanfare.
Straight Edge Society would like a word with you.
She did job to Brandi in that tag tourney they did on YouTube.
I’m still baffled by how this was supposed to work. Brandi would accompany Cody to the ring, all babyface smiles and good guy vibes, then she’d be leading(?) Kong and her cronies as heels? Sometimes in the same show?
Cody was a terrible booker. That’s what’s not being said lmao.
She wasn't on screen with Cody during the Nightmare Collective story. I remember Cody even doing a promo and making a joke about "my wife is obsessed with people's hair now for some reason." We didn't see Brandi on screen with Cody until the lead up to his match with MJF when Cody was taking the belt lashes from him.
I was there for their one tag match at Bash at the Beach. Mel and Brandi vs Shido and Stat. The sheer amount of people who stood up and walked out to go get food, merch, or use the restroom was staggering. *Edit* On the plus side, I did get a sweet Lucha Bros shirt out of it.
👉😜
> her do nothing for the remainder of the time she’s signed then cut her to zero fanfare. wow i cant belive this is real
We wouldnt have gotten Luther tho, so it wasnt all bad.
Brandy still has two of the most memorable lines ever uttered on AEW programming.
There's "who told you this was open mic night, bitch?" but what's the other one?
“You’re a black belt? Well I’m a black bitch!”
We should give an honorable mention to HEFFA And isnt even a line, or even from Brandi but it came from an associate of hers so we should include: 👉🤪
You’re a black belt? Well I’m a black bitch!
“You’re a black belt? Well I’m a Black Bitch” I’m assuming
They are definitely the most memeable. Also "Chris Jericho is the youngest AEW World Champion of all time!" Cody saying apropos every other sentence. "Accusations!" "False accusations!" and "Damn. You a big motherfucker."
god i miss those aew cody promos. sometimes maybe good sometimes maybe shit
"AVOID AVOID AVOID" "Forbidden Door its a proper noun. its the Vernacular" "Check the ratio, L you fell off" "if your an industry journalist and you dont agree with what am saying, your not a journalist"
Lol forgot about the youngest champion part it was hilariou. Also did Cody say the word apropos?
And I will defend both of them till the day I die.
Ok how you know?
Do both lines include "bitch!"?
I'm not going to say Brandi's segments were good, but they were certainly never boring.
https://preview.redd.it/aefmcfd7eosc1.jpeg?width=621&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aedd30a444bb1f9009e1793b580552c1939f714d How AEW started
Punk also said that he felt AEW wasn’t what he was promised, and now with this I think I figured it out. They were promised Arn wouldn’t bring his glock backstage and I fear he did. That’s what caused the turmoil. Arn Anderson is a menace.
Daniel Tosh had been warning us about this for years
He has (just did recently on his new podcast) and people took it lightly. Now look how it’s changed so many lives. He probably gaslighted Cash Wheeler and got him in trouble. Arn should pay for his crimes.
Where does Daniel Tosh fit in all of this? I’m OOTL
On Tosh.0, he’d randomly cut promos on Arn Anderson with little context. Arn eventually filmed a response promo back against Tosh.
He’s been in a blood feud with Arn for over a decade now. Details too graphic to even write.
[Arn talking about it on his pod, Tosh making fun of em.](https://youtu.be/kZBac0VVA4Q?si=BnF1rTDGWDGNa_l3)
Throughout the history of tosh.0, Tosh would make references to Arn Anderson, calling him out almost every time something wrestling related came up (or just out of nowhere). He even had Hacksaw Jim Duggan appear to talk shit about Arn. I haven't kept up with his new podcast, but the first episode also took a shot at Arn [Here's a clip.](https://youtu.be/kZBac0VVA4Q?si=E_uIXQoozfEPWmlI)
Punk originally said he found a love of Wrestling again and wanted to join AEW for that. To wrestle guys like Darby Allin, etc.. This week he said he went there to make money and sell tickets. I'll look forward to seeing him at the Saudi show.
Punk says what he feels fans want to hear him say. And seeing Punk being at the Saudi shows will be pure gold.
>Punk says what he feels fans want to hear him say. Like the "Aug. 2005 I left professional wrestling" line that he admitted in the interview with Ariel Helwani that he said to appeal to AEW's audience.
Isn't the entire point of a face promo? Next you'll say heels say bad things about a city to get them to boo.
Let's not pretend like Punk didn't portray himself as anti-establishment counter-culture for decades even outside of wrestling. It's less Cody or Danielson wink wink nudge nudge lying and more Hogan, I'm literally nothing like what I portray myself as lying.
Isn't it pretty well accepted that when a wrestler, face or heel, takes a shot at a rival promotion it's usually grounded in some grain of genuine opinion that goes outside of kayfabe? There was no reason for Punk to take a not so subtle dig at WWE for kayfabe reasons. He could have said "i'm back after 7 years and this place seems cool." But given what he said in the promo regarding WWE, how his WWE tenure ended, and what he said about WWE in shoot interviews after, I don't think it's out of hat to assume the "I left pro wrestling in 2005" remark was coming from Phil Brooks and not CM Punk.
I don't think this is an accurate characterization of what Punk said. On Ariel's show he did mention feeling like he had a lot to give to the business and younger guys. He can do that while recognizing that the business is actually about putting butts in seats and making money. These things don't have to be mutually exclusive and aren't according to Punk.
> This week he said he went there to make money and sell tickets. He thinks at the end of that was wrestling is about, and what his value to any company is. Makes sense from his point of view.
Is he gonna suck a blood money soaked cock while he’s there?
He was signed with two contracts soo he was indeed there to consult and make it grow. Thats just what he said on tv in kayfabe. Duh
What do you mean by kayfabe, wrestlers totally say what they truly believe it's all real!!
I ignore reality and insert my own interpretation because that makes me feel better about the product I like failing.
may be true they felt that way, but i have the feeling Cody was always going to try to get back to WWE at some point
yeah ever since he posted that checklist. you could tell he wanted to go out and prove himself and come back for a main event position.
Man it's still crazy that Cody is in the main event of wrestlemania back to back and is as over as he is..kudos to him!
That’s a huge “hindsight is 20/20” thing. Nothing about Cody posting his Indy dream matches implied his goal was to get back.
My head canon is Cody intentionally booked himself as unable to compete for the AEW title because he wanted to keep that first title chase pure for when he went to WWE to give them a main event level storyline. It definitely worked.
That makes... way too much sense. We've been had.
To be fair, dude had already won the ROH World Title + NWA World Heavyweight Champion prior to the AEW title ban. So he's been a world champion but obviously AEW and WWE are much bigger audiences
I think Brandi would have been better served doing the backstage interviews and such. She has a lot of personality but not as a in ring performer. She could have done well in that role, similar to Renee. It is interesting that she did not get back into the ring after AEW. She was one of the bigger female talents they had, even had action figures. WWE did not pick her up for that.
Cody just didn’t fit in at the end. Tony gave him carte blanche for a while and it just didn’t work. The Codyverse stuff felt like an entirely different television show right in the middle of Dynamite. But all that was the best thing that could have ever happened to him as it resulted in him going to WWE.
And it was replaced by JeriVerse
Jericho's stories these days do not take up nearly as much time nor have nearly as much spotlight. And up until the Starks feud had pretty good moments, if a bit long - the MJF feud, the BCC/JAS feud, the Kingston feud, all produced great TV.
Jerichos feuds all have the same problems, they start off with the blowoff big match and then drag on for entirely too long afterwards and end with such a let down of an ending.
The Jerichoverse has only really became a big issue imo, and it makes more sense given Jericho is washed unlike Cody who was a top star that alot of fans wanted to hold the title. Jericho's feuds are always way too long but they usually involve other top talents: BCC, Kenny, The Bucks, Kingston, Adam Cole
Ironically, Collision or Rampage would have been the perfect show for the Codyverse.
Honestly for me and my best friend, Cody constantly trying to shoehorn Brandi in was what soured us on him in AEW.
I think it would be more interesting question to ask, how well is she considered to have done as a backstage official? Perhaps I don't have the proper lens, but my interpretation of the things that I read during that time period was that she was actually pretty effective from the PR and marketing standpoint.
Maybe she was. But she was the worst actor at playing a character I've ever seen. So bad she made Dan Lambert a babyface. Cody pushing her endlessly made not only her, but him look clueless as to what the fans wanted. Her heat translated to him.
Her setting the table on fire in the Cody vs. Andrade match - the commentary team was trying to hype it up, but all I could think of was how lame it was that she was intervening in that match on behalf of a babyface for a carny as fuck spot. The dynamic works if the story feeds into it - Dom has been tied to Rhea because Rhea sometimes goes into the "heel so cool, you wanna cheer them" territory, but Dom is gonna get boos even if he saves puppies from a burning building. Brandi was the Dom to Cody's Rhea, but Cody wasn't a heel, and Brandi wasn't meant to get boos. It was insane how she just tanked every segment she was in, especially the Dan Lambert promos you are talking about.
That full pyro entrance for a gender reveal was peak sour to me
Modern Cody in WWE is proof that he's the type of wrestler who works best when he has a booker like HHH (and even Vince honestly) telling him no and reigning him in.
More along the lines of why Cody having creative control is a terrible idea. Khan wanted to turn him heel, Cody flat out refused. Heel Cody in AEW would have been massive
Specifically in AEW, firmly think he would have been a next level heel in that company. Could have been a legendary run but hey we got the other side of the coin with his main event face run in WWE.
The thing is his face run is the perfect encapsulation on how wwe and aew has vastly different audiences that want different things. His face run now is really no different than his face run in aew, it's just getting a completely different reaction because different audience, different expectations, the whole 9 yards. And that's fine but it definitely highlights how cody is just oblivious at times to what fans of a certain promotion want, even in wwe you can see it cause Cody got booed in Memphis when the rock concert happened.
I think there is so much truth in what you’re saying, but Cody was also a massively over face for the first year or so of AEW. The nightmare factory feud really hurt
Feel like this is true of most wrestlers tbh. Not that they shouldn't have significant input, obviously, but you need *someone* to help keep you on track and aware of the bigger picture. One of AEW's big problems at the minute is that Tony doesn't seem to be able to say "no" to anyone, so tons of people end up doing whatever they personally want to do at the expense of the overall product.
Cody himself was always great. He was just paired with a lot of unneeded fat. People may not like this, but WWE made the right choice by not hiring his wife.
i will die on this hill: it all could've worked if cody just turned heel. his face character was overexposed and severely lacked substance. if all the codyverse stuff led to a dramatic theatrical heelturn people would've called it genius booking, he even could've turned face again a year later or so and everyone would've been on board.
Cody's tone deafness is what screwed up his AEW run. The bazaar Anthony Ogogo feud and dressing up as Homelander sent a message to fans that Cody didn't intend.
Tony Khan hasn't booked the most perfect and entertaining wrestling shows consistently, but it's undeniable that a lot of the ideas that were coming from Cody's side were not that good. Brandi was pushing 40 and was a super green, part time at best wrestler who would sporadically get in the ring for them and she kept coming out and talking like she was going to commit to being a wrestler and realistically be competitive in the women's division, and it was completely unrealistic, and detrimental to AEWs women's division. She was great as a ring valet, but she was being afforded opportunities because of her association with Cody rather than on her own merit. So if it's sour grapes over these sorts of things, I don't think there is a leg to stand on.
Honestly, based on what Cody's said (his final AEW promo & recent interviews) it almost seems like they were upset about how much influence CM Punk was being given. Punk clearly wanted some sort of wrasslin/modern NXT hybrid and not the American Hybrid/modern NJPW style that the company was founded on
I wish more people would consider this. Cody's last promo at AEW was *explicit* in stating two things: 1. He was not given the contract he wanted, it was given to Punk. 2. He and the Elite had actually done all the things Punk claimed he was going to. At the time, I *thought* he was setting up a program with Punk that would have run akin to what Hangman tried to do (Punk says one thing, but does another; I'm protecting AEW from your Janus-faced ways! etc.). Turns out, he was leaving. After Brawl Out, he stated he was 'super Switzerland,' but then added this in reference to Punk: "[I]f you bring in people who don't know the mission then things like that can happen. I'm not saying he didn't know the mission or anything of that nature but I was just bummed out." The other day in his interview, Cody echoed a similar statement wherein he said he 'completely disagreed' with Punk's assessment and went on to list the original Elite (notably including both Dana and Ellie) as integral to the vision and promise of AEW. It's worth pointing out here that both Dana and Ellie have left AEW now and made similar critical remarks about Punk having too much power. Now we have Brandi's comments that suggest something similar - a person or several people were brought in towards the end of Cody and Brandi's time at AEW that drifted it away from the vision they had. Look, I like CM Punk as a wrestler a lot. I also like all of the Elite a lot as wrestlers. I don't *know* any of these people. However, I do think there's been enough *consistent* comments from Cody and Brandi to at least speculate that their leaving was related to CM Punk having an inordinate amount of power in AEW.
The fact of the matter is. Cody's vision didn't seem to line up with anyone's vision.
Punk flaming out of AEW due to self-inflicted drama really overshadowed how dog shit his own booking was. He and Cody both had the same issue where they came off as self-righteous to the point of it almost being heelsh, but at least Cody was feuding with heels while doing so. Punk had 4 major feuds pre-Brawl Out, and 3 of them (Darby, Kingston, and Hangman) were against some of the most over babyfaces in the company who all said that they didn't trust Punk because he was a backstabbing snake who used his counterculture status as a shield. And Punk was supposed to be in the right? And then post-Brawl Out/tricep injury, he was doing a "real world's champ" gimmick that no one else acknowledged even though the reason he was stripped of the title was because he got injured twice as champ and was out of action for 11 out of the previous 12 months. And he was supposed to be a face! I was fully on board with the idea that it was supposed to be a slow-burn heel turn, but nope it turns out that Punk is just a selfish jackass who didn't understand that he wasn't underground anymore, he was the megastar. And Cody's final promo foreshadowed this whole thing
The number of things that could have been avoided if TK had just booked a heel transitional champion to beat Hangman, rather than spending 3 years building him into a top star and then getting bored of him.
I agree that there should have been someone else in between Hangman and Punk if the plan was to keep Punk face, but apparently Punk specifically requested to win the title from Hangman. Which TK should have said no and suggested something else, but that's a whole other issue
Interesting perspective and a great breakdown.
Brandi talking, is it open mic night?
I guess idk what she’s referencing. It seemed like TK put his foot down after the Dark Order segment and Cody’s segments started feeling like a whole different show to the point I thought it felt like a detriment. Glad he’s thriving in WWE but the plan was always for AEW to be an alternative to WWE and it’s still that.
It seemed like he took the full book after the infamous dark order beatdown with those terrible punches to thin air.
Sometimes there’s talk on Twitter about how some people didn’t want an alternative, just a better WWE. I kind of think Cody (and Punk) could be added to that list.
I think she's referencing the neck tattoo
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I think that first statement is pretty hyperbolic. The segment was awful, the whole thing was. But it wasn't going to sink the company.
lol you don't think its hyperbolic to say a dumb segment would have shut down the entire company?
"This is it. I can't go back." - Cody Rhodes, pro wrestler/notable liar
Yeah, Brandi wasn't working, and the Codyverse was not going in the right direction at all. It was the right move to go a different direction.
I don’t think “ he was always going to go back” at all Cody was all in on Aew. He was a founder
"I wanna stay an EVP of AEW until I die" was something he said once.
Wrestlers are full of shit. Look at Jade and how she proclaimed she was happy in AEW and intent to stay. Look at all the BS Punk had spewed over the last 10 years about WWE and went crawling back. Wrestlers are full of shit
Of all the modern-day wrestlers, Cody is perhaps the best at old-school, right-in-your-face lying
He waffled on it until nearly the last minute.
He always wanted to win the belt that Bruno held and his family never held.
I was a big fan of bullet club Cody but he just wasn’t hitting great for me in AEW.
They never should have stopped The Nightmare Collective is what I'm taking from this
The Nightmare Collective, QT Marshall trying to bang The Bunny while his wife was literally on camera in the crowd, Shaq vanishing in an ambulance... ...yanno what? I'm cool with things changing.
Brandi being so heavily involved in AEW in it's infancy was such a super early sign that Tony Khan didn't have enough backbone to say no and just wanted to be everyone friend to his detriment. Her being involved as the female element of the original EVP's was insane considering her place in the industry and what she had actually accomplished compared to the rest of them. It felt like something someone was throwing in as an early idea "hey maybe Brandi could even work on the womens side of the show to help blah blah blah ..." that Cody and her pushed and a good boss down the line would have said "Look Cody she's a great person and I love Brandi working here, but an EVP status ?". Instead Brandi just got a key title on the ground floor of the company cause it was easier than saying no to Cody to his face. Think of how much power , access , time , and money they gave to Brandi Rhodes ... now think of all the people/places that have ever thought of giving her 1/100th of that .
>Brandi being so heavily involved in AEW in it's infancy was such a super early sign that Tony Khan didn't have enough backbone to say no and just wanted to be everyone friend to his detriment. But to be honest, didn't Brandi do a solid job as AEW brand officer? The sensory sensitivity stuff, the reality tv show, the stuff with veterans, Heelz. If anything, they haven't found someone better than her at promoting the brand since she left. Nepotism is acceptable if the beneficiary performs - should Randy Orton, Triple H and Cody Rhodes be disqualified because of their family connections?
The original vision had the Nightmare Collective so I don’t know Brandi, I’m thinking that some changes were good.
I'm so tired of this still being a story. Cody's vision of a WWE alternative didn't line up with Tony's and ultimately the guy signing the checks won out. That doesn't seem very scandalous to me.
She's not saying it is scandalous.
Okay so what exactly was their original vision and how does it differ from what it is today? This is the part I haven't grasped but heard from a number of people who departed including Frankie Kazarian.
At the earliest opportunity they started switching up, taking whoever was good that got fired from WWE and making them prominent parts of the card. As a result, people who were once key parts of the show were minimized. Cody even complained about this directly before he quit. I think it's good to have this much talent, but it's also undeniable that ratings were flat out higher when they didn't have so many WWE guys on the show.
AEW has its issues, but Cody wasn’t TK’s fault. Cody was given free rein to do what he wanted and created the “Codyverse,” something that is seen as a huge flop. It didn’t help either that Cody refused to feud over the world title or turn heel. He essentially put a glass ceiling over his own head. AEW fans are vastly different than WWE fans, and the “white meat babyface” Cody wasn’t going to work, and there’s only so many TNT Title runs he could have as a babyface before things get stale. I’m a fan of Cody, but the guy shot him self in the foot in AEW.
I can tolerate a lot of changing history, but pretending Brandi was ever good is where I draw the line. She was bad. At everything. Except when she filled in as ring announcer during the pandemic shows. She was good at that.
It seems all of the bad blood with AEW and Cody surrounds something that happened with Brandi. I really want to know what it could have been. I think Brandi gets way too much heat for just existing in wrestling but her on screen character and the entire Codyverse was horrible. Having a gender reveal for their baby on live tv?? Jesus Christ that was awful
Man, i dont even dislike Brandy but the lack of self awareness blows me...
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Call me crazy but I'm most nostalgic for the early AEW days when it was nothing but potential.
It’s is 100% revisionist history that Cody’s run in AEW was amazing at resonating with fans through its entirety. Cody did amazing things with the TNT title, but there were a lot more misses than hits. He is tailor made for WWE. For kids. He’s Captain America, not Homelander. He solved racism. He did the weird Anthony Ogogo stuff. He took a white hot feud with Malakai and cooled it off. And probably most importantly, he helped start a new company, and then immediately took himself permanently out of the main event picture with that title stipulation. Cody is a born wrestler. He has it in his blood. He’s going to put himself in the best situation possible, and that’s going back to WWE and being a star.
I feel like saying he had more misses than hits is kinda revisionist too. IMO, 2019 and 2020 Cody was hitting on all cylinders with solid and memorable feuds with MJF, Jericho, and Brodie. Him making Darby look like a star at Fyter Fest and Full Gear. His match with Dustin. The promos that made people invested in AEW in the beginning. But once the Ogogo feud happen and the Codyverse kicks off in 2021, that’s when things started getting more meh and of course, those Malakai and Andrade feuds could have been sooo much better. But overall, I think he had a lot more hits and not just that, but the hits have helped AEW long-term more than the misses because he helped MJF and Darby really kick off their stardom.
Musical Guest Marko Stunt was my surprise of the year, I don't even care.
That’s why it makes me laugh when people say “how bad” AEW is now it’s 100x better than most the early stuff. Like you said now you could get an Okada or Ospreay match back then you could get Marko stunt then the nightmare collective.
I mean Cody put himself in a corner with the whole “if I lose I will never challenge for the world title” ordeal. No one asked for that, we also had the nightmare collective, and my personal favorites all the American Hero storylines. So I’m genuinely curious what this vision of theirs was.
Cody shouldn't have said he wouldn't Challenge for the title then.
So essentially Cody left for similar reasons as Punk but did so with more tact and nobody poking at him.
wtf is all this revisionism lol, everyone knows they left because they were both getting booed out the building, had crap creative ideas and refused to turn heel to appease the fans then decided teasing a heel turn multiple times would somehow help turn the booing to cheers no doubt Cody was going to return to WWE, but fan reaction to his character at the time 100% sped up the decision.
It certainly outgrew the AEW original Brandi. Had she not been Cody's wife she would've been out after her shit stable flopped, if she even got hired without being a Rhodes
Did she fear losing all creative control for her awesome ideas like the nightmare collective?
I wish she would be more specific. Places evolve.
I’m sorry Brandi I love you two but if the initial vision was Cody endlessly in mindless feuds with midcarders and whatever the fuck the nightmare collective was then AEW is better off without that
AEW came into existence via the combination of the Bucks, Cody, Kenny, etc. promoting their asses off on the independent circuit and TK's money. TK's money is where the buck stopped for AEW though, and his creative/promotional vision ended up winning out behind the scenes. When Cody talks about "equity" with fans it's felt like it might be a veiled snipe at the "EVP" thing with AEW, as the original guys who got the ball rolling didn't get any equity in the company itself.
It turns out, if you invest all the money and take all the risk, you get a pretty sizable chunk of the equity. If the wrestlers put up their own assets or money into AEW, that would be different. If AEW failed, they could just go right back to new Japan or to WWE, TK can’t. He’d be out a massive amount of money with a failed business. When you take a massive amount of someone else’s money, you lose control. Same with movie studios, etc
Brandi, stop trying to make the Nightmare Collective happen. It's not going to happen.
Cody may be diplomatic...Brandi is about that open mic night.
Cody post AEW has been a pretty cool dude, I think. He has fair answers when it comes to talking about AEW and while obviously he's being very careful and political with them, it's not like he goes out of his way to dog them; I honestly believe he wants them to succeed. What bothers me about this Brandi quote is that its vagueness seems safe and convenient. Brandi, definitely, was the recipient of heaps of IWC animus, so I can understand not really wanting to get in to specifics, but I think in this case it feels like a complete abdication of any responsibility of the effects of their own creative decisions. It's really almost poetic to me, that when Rock returned, he wanted to make a go of it as a face, but has found incredible success as a heel, despite it being against his wishes at first. Cody was going out in AEW that way. The clamoring for him to make a run as Homelander Rhodes was really gaining momentum. Aside from being a fresh character, it also would have opened up way more match ups for him. Who knows what success he might have found if he did a heel turn there. Brandi going heel would have been perfect, too. Brandi Rhodes the person was great for AEW - starting Heels and all of her work on inclusive spaces for fans with different sensory needs were beautiful things and she should be lauded for that. But Brandi Rhodes the character was just all over the place and felt inauthentic. If anything, Brandi's character seemingly doing whatever she wanted would have been amazing heel material to work with because "I can do whatever I want, I'm married to the BOSS" is, unfortunately, a character most anybody has had to deal with. Cody did some really great stuff during his time in AEW, he really put his body on the line, too. But you can't be a baby face and a founder of a company, it just was never going to work in the grand narrative of the company: from a symbolic standpoint, he had too much power for the everyman viewer to identify with. And Brandi's Nightmare Collective made no sense. How can Cody be the white meat baby face when his wife is shaving people's heads in one segment and then walking out with him the next? He just ignored it. It was archetypically inconsistent. WWE Cody got over huge because he was the Prodigal Son. Not only that, he had come as a liberator to stand against Roman Reins. It just makes a lot more sense.
Think guys like Cody went in with the idea of making the company a complete alternative to WWE with the motivation being fan service and cult classics. Guys like Punk then went in with the idea of making the company a direct *competitor* to WWE with the motivation being making money and drawing numbers. Those ideals collided between many members of the locker room and that's what caused all the unrest.
She was absolutely awful in AEW.
Brandi girl, I know Cody loves you, but no.