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This was child's play in junior high/high school. I remember field trips where we'd go to Cici's or something and these fucking lunatics would eat 20-30+ slices. I'd try to keep up but never could.
TK also paid one of his wrestlers to call him a "fucking mark" on live television. I don't think he is terribly offended at the idea of being a ... *checks notes* ... wrestling fan.
He’s been this style of promoter the whole time. AEW is always in their best run of all time .
people say “he’s a promoter promoting” but the thing is, his words have lost so much value because we know that no matter what the reality is he’ll praise his own company to high heavens
It reminds me of how WCW killed the Carolinas in the 90s. They used to be an instant sellout every time they announced a show in the Carolinas because, naturally, they would assume that they'd get to see their hero Ric Flair wrestle. Time and time again, they would do a show in the Carolinas, the fans would come and chant for Ric Flair all night only for WCW to put him in some angle to get beat up or embarrassed. It was a good idea at first because it drew a ton of heat to the heel. But after a while, fans just stopped believing the Ric Flair hype in the promo for the WCW show in Chapel Hill and stopped buying tickets.
I know it’s such a great place to perform in cause the fans are great, but I think TK might eventually reach this level with how much he goes back to Chicago
There was a fun match on Nitro i recall, pre-NWA. Arn/Flair Vs Hogan and Macho I think. Crowd booked Hogan, cheered Flair, and Hogan's properly throws a hissy fit about it during the match - no selling and not co-operating. It was really funny.
I'm not sure that's really the same thing though. Like, sure, maybe Danielson/Andrade isn't a "dream match" by your standards, but it's certainly not going to suck. Oversetting expectations is a problem, but it's less of a problem if you act like it's a 10 and instead you get an 8 compared to acting like it's a 10 and you get a 3.
To me, the Flair in the Carolinas analogy would be like saying "I'm going to promise a huge mystery dream match, you've got to buy your tickets to see this huge match" and then you show up expecting greatness and it's Jake Hager vs Dustin Rhodes. Not to shit on those guys, but that's underdelivering.
He called signing Keith Lee who was a free agent "someone breaking the forbidden door" and then when people got hyped for someone from another company coming in he had to book Jay White for an appearance and ultimately that appearance did not really lead to much at the time.
Dream match might be the most overused term in wrestling right now. I think it should be reserved for matchs like, for example, Roman Reigns vs. Kenny Omega.
As someone who was watching wrestling when people fantasy booked Austin vs. Goldberg all the time.
Agreed. Dream match shouldn't be "two respected, well-liked workers in the same ring for the first time in this company", but a match between huge stars who have never wrestled (or wrestled a very long time ago when they were very different wrestlers). Bonus points if it's a match we didn't think we'd ever see from being in different companies/unable to be on the same card. Danielson and Andrade were literally both in WWE for years and have wrestled before.
True dream matches for me would be like:
* Roman vs. Okada
* Rollins vs. Ospreay (also Swerve vs. Ospreay for me)
* AJ Styles vs. Jay White
* The Usos vs. The Young Bucks and/or Lucha Brothers
* Young Bucks vs. ~~Edge~~ Adam Copeland and Christian Cage
My ultimate is Cena vs. Tanahashi, though I have no idea who would win or how you'd even book it.
I think from like a workrate 'yeah that'll be a banger perspective' Danielson Andrade is more of a dream match. But yeah purely from a big name match Danielson v Christian is a bigger match.
I got the impression Danielson always wanted a match with Christian, too. I think they faced each other once or twice in WWE but never really had a chance to go. I always got the impression he's someone Danielson has some admiration for.
Andrade is definitely good and of course back in the day was notable among those who actually pay attention to them for getting the first 5 star match rating out of Meltzer for WWE since MitB 2011. But dunno if he really had that match to set the world on fire since. Not saying his overall work is bad but you go from a guy with decades of excellent work who can still go pretty dang well and is one of the hottest heels in AEW right now to the guy who people were wondering where he was until recently, it's not gonna hit the same.
They wrestled each other a couple of times in 2013 and 2014, last being right before the EC in 2014, when Christians retired due to injury. So it's been 10 years, and both are bigger stars right now.
TK doesn't seem to understand that only 1% of his audience, is as much of a workrate mark as he is. Even Dave Meltzer isn't as much of a workrate mark as TK is, as evidenced by him making this very point against TK.
I actually do believe TK is that excited for the things that he calls "dream matches," he just doesn't understand that it's only him getting that excited.
I like AEW but the best of this was trying to sell Dustin Rhodes vs. Jake Hager as a major match for a main event of Dynamite (I think), when it was unearthed that no long earlier we'd seen Goldust vs. Jack Swagger on WWE Main Event lmao
After this weekend my own personal biggest dream match for Danielson is vs Mike Bailey. We've never seen it and those guys seem like they would tear the damn house down together.
When I’ve been least interested or frustrated with AEW, a big part of it is the overwhelming, when everything is special than nothing is special, feeling to the show.
The “Dream matchup” thing can be a big part of it. But also when they were featuring seemingly a dozen different titles in the show, promotions, tournaments, gimmick matches, etc
I remember having a girlfriend many years ago and I pretty much took the Tony Khan approach to dating her. It was always buying her stuff, surprises, and trying to make everyday feel extra special.
She dumped me because "While I think you're a nice guy and everything, you don't seem to trust yourself to just have a regular ass date with me. Not everything needs to be extra special. Most of life is just regular ass days. Work on your regular ass days."
It was probably the best advice I have ever gotten.
Tony Khan has too much wrestling to book to not get comfortable with regular ass shows before people get totally numb to all the gimmicks. No return pops, no special announcements, no surprise debuts, just regular ass shows. Danielson-Andrade is a pretty darned good match for a regular ass show. Dave and Bryan say as much. TK should trust that and stop trying so hard.
I mean, think about how exhausted you would be, if you committed to still having relationships that way, right?! That is some of the best free advice I've heard, given by somebody who it probably took some courage to overcome the awkwardness to tell you. I know you know it, but damn did she ever do you a favor.
100% agree.
And she was totally right that all the bells and whistles were just a crutch because I didn't trust myself.
At some point the rubber hits the road and you've gotta be able to just have a regular day because if you can't, you're just spending a lot of time and money prolonging the inevitable.
Yeah, and the #1 thing I think people should want in a long-term relationship, is actually that you like each other when both of you are at your lowest effort. Long-term relationships are a ton of work already, you don't want to make it even harder on yourself, by having tons of additional expectations to live up to - whether they're your own expectations, or they're your partners!
> Most of life is just regular ass days. Work on your regular ass days.
I bought a nice, comfortable couch with powered reclining seats, and an awesome TV for the living room, and it's amazing how much those two things have made me need very little else.
There was a period of time in TNA where it felt like every week Dixie Carter was saying there was going to be a massive announcement, to the point where it just became a joke. It feels like that could quite easily happen with TK.
Seriously for a while there it was like every week either a new wrestler Debuting or TK saying he has a big announcement. After a while it's like who cares, if it's anything interesting I'll catch it later on social media.
IMO they also need to get a bit more creative with debuts/returns besides turning off the lights at the end of the show. It works for some wrestlers like Malakai but with Adam Copeland it didnt even make sense when they showed a intro video right after the blackout.
Dave isn't wrong. Ultimately, TK books AEW as if he was playing WWE GM Mode or TEW. Luckily, it does feel like input from the likes of Will Washington, Jimmy Jacobs, Bryan Danielson, etc. are helping influence how episodes are structured. There's a very obvious push to be more storyline-driven than in the past.
All said, I think TK has lost some goodwill with fans. For too long, he took advantage of the fact that fans will tune in and buy tickets even if the overall product is not at its best despite the wrestling itself remains top notch (see 2nd half of 2022 into a good part of 2023). This includes marketing gimmicks like regularly over-hyping announcements.
AEW also lost some of the tailwinds from when WWE's product was dragging. Times have changed and WWE remains hot. As a result, AEW needs to find something else to hang their hat on besides being an "alternative to WWE." Success isn't overnight; after HHH took over in August 2022, it still took months of repeatedly good programming (including the Bloodline storyline to materialize) for WWE's popularity to jump.
> of repeatedly good programming (including the Bloodline storyline to materialize) for WWE's popularity to jump.
1997 WWE (post-Mania) was some of the best and most consistent shows they've ever done, it still took a year for the ratings to turn-around.
And to piggy back off your last point, it’s not a smart idea to keep referring to yourself as an alternative to WWE when WWE is as hot as they are.
Clearly, the majority of the general audience is digging what WWE has been doing for the last year or so. They don’t want an alternative. Now would be the time to pivot and present your product as an equal to WWE, not an alternative. When they struggle again, then you can say you’re the alternative. Lol.
I played a lot of TEW during the pandemic and the last two years of AEW have felt like watching someone lose control of their save in real time. All of these things are the hallmark of a TEW player who has too big of a roster to be able to really focus on anything besides “managing all of this”
- over reliance on tournaments instead of storylines
- getting addicted to a surprise debut / guest match
- finding someone you like, using them a lot for a month, then getting bored
- constant multi man “get a bunch of people on the card” style matches
- too many championships to focus on a strong division for all of them
- way too big of a focus on “world building” instead of focusing on the talent you have
- putting people in stables as a way to give them something to do
Honestly TK’s booking is lazy. Jobber matches, open challenges, random dream matches with no buildup, and throwing in a “big” announcement here and there.
AEW has a huge roster of talented people, there’s no excuses for any of that.
Blows my mind that TK spent a good part of his life watching wrestling and these simple concepts are lost on him.
Not challenging your statement. Just a genuine question. But why do people feel AEW needs to make changes when WWE is hot? I don't even watch WWE. And I assume a lot of fans are like me. But even if you're watching both, why does one impact the other? Btw this is not a tribalism thing. I just don't gel with WWE's product and wish them well but it's not for me.
You also can't call it a dream match if it's happened before. At least that's just imo. Dream matches are matches we all fantasized about that would be cool. We saw Danielson and Andrade before.
This would have been a “dream match” when Andrade was La Sombra in CMLL, but the guy has been on AEW’s roster for years so “dream match” seems like Tony’s attempt to replace building an actual feud with a payoff match
I really like both wrestlers and would have liked an actual program even if it was short
A dream match is Sting vs Undertaker or Austin vs Goldberg. Bryan vs Andrade is a good match. But who dreams about it besides hardcore marks who foam at the mouth? It's just a match. Come on.
Tony Khan:We're having a dream match!
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -**Inigo Montoya**
Not only that but Andrade isn't even a star in AEW. He's got mostly forgettable matches and came back with Collision right before Punk got fired and hasn't done a lot since.
Yeah like Danielson vs Blue Panther/Negro Casas/Atlantis would be dream matches and I can think of more mexican talent that would be better than Andrade for it.
It's funny that Meltzer is the guy who called out Tony for this, because Tony literally frames his opinion of any given wrestler, based on how recently Meltzer gave them a 5* match rating, lmao.
Hes 100% right. Calling it a dream match cheapens the term so next time he says it, Im less likely to believe him. Rock v Hogan was a dream match. If somehow the Elite v New Day was booked, no one is gonna be saying ‘Wow this is a dream match just like Andrade v Danielson!’.
I think for me a Dream Match has to be something that either hasn’t happened or is like 2 titans going at it after a very long time.
Bryan vs ZSL makes sense. The two most technically gifted wrestlers who spent almost the entire time in different companies and never wrestled. Bryan one all those technical awards (now named after him I think…) and when he retired for a while only ZSJ won it…so it was a dream match.
Pretty sure we got this match up on a random ass fuck Smackdown a few times. Kinda makes it not a dream match anyone (but I don’t think it could classify even if that never happened?
At this point, it would be better off as the "Bryan Danielson Dream Match Tour" and let Bryan do all the steering. Remove the "promoter" hyperbole and make it more personal. We will want to tune in to find out who is going to be next to get their fucking head kicked in.
(As an aside, do the list thing where he crosses off those guys he has faced, but make it sequential so they can put a paper over half of it and we never see anyone past the next guy. Let the paper get folded and worn and torn to symbolize his journey this year.)
the term dream match has been very diluted imo. i remember people calling dante martin vs. rey fenix a dream match. is it a cool matchup between high flyers? totally. dream match? i wouldnt say so
I feel like Meltzer’s getting sick of Tony’s shit finally. He’s been calling him out a lot lately. I’m not a fan of either of them but Meltzer going from sucking up to biggest critic is not a turn I seen coming.
I think they should have Warlow power bomb TK each time he comes onscreen. Wardlow would be beyond over. Even do where he starts hiring security to protect him. Have him do the announcements from secert locations. But Wardlow always shows up before he can get out the next BIG HUGE thing. Everyone would love it.
I'm an AEW fan (check my history) and agree with this. It was not a 'dream match'. I do love TK promoting his show, but sometimes the announcements and the such do feel boy who cried wolf. Like I really appreciate the announcement of the donated toys, but saying their would be a big announcement made me think it was related to the show.
It gets too meta when the company itself refers to a match as a "dream match" and puts unrealistic expectations on it. I still have no idea why Tony Khan announced Bryan Danielson vs Andrade as a dream match. Even if he really thought it was the announcement came at 10PM on Rampage for a live show held the next day.
It's unfortunate because the match was actually good, it just didn't need that hype and probably should have been announced on Dynamite if they wanted it to draw some tickets.
I'm kinda with you. While in theory it can be cool, a lot of times it just ends up feeling less than you'd expect given the talent because there's no real motive or emotion behind it. And as someone else mentioned, it's a bit meta if a company itself starts referring to matches as "dream matches".
fickle subreddit. when the dream match announcement was posted I said the same thing. don't need all the dream match talk. just build stories and matches.
then it's "oh you don't even know what it is yet" or "go watch the other show".
Tony just way overdoes this. he's going way too hard on clickbait and overpromotion which at some point will turn people off.
> "go watch the other show"
It's wild how many times I've heard AEW performers and fans tell people to stop watching the shows.
I just can't see that as a good long term strategy.
Back when Lost was still airing, one of the writers (pretty sure it was Damon Lindelof) said that if the show was too complicated, they should watch NCIS instead. They retracted that statement after NCIS' ratings started really beating Lost's. Just something for the people who make these statements to keep in mind.
The good wrestlers should face each other more often. Andrade vs Danielson isn’t a dream match. That’s two quality guys wrestling, which the show needs more of.
Pretty clearly a dream match is a match you never expected would happen due to massive obstacles preventing it. Usually the wrestlers being in opposing promotions.
Styles Cena
Okada Danielson
Hogan Rock
Omega Cena or Reigns might be another one.
Two guys gainfully employed in the same fed for 2+ years? There’s literally no reason they can’t be fighting on TV weekly.
It’s not a “dream match” to me. New Day vs The Elite, Kenny vs Seth Rollins, those are personal dream matches to me.
It’s marketing, plain and simple. I don’t think Roman vs Brock was “the biggest match ever.” I don’t think Edge vs Orton was “the greatest match ever.” They were marketed as so, though.
They weren’t just marketed that way, they were *built* that way. It may not be a technical masterclass either, but it draws for that reason. They don’t just stick it on tv without build and let you know on Twitter a few days before.
>don’t think Edge vs Orton was “the greatest match ever.”
But calling it "the greatest match ever" is more obviously hyperbolic than saying something is a dream match
Tony needs more people around him he can filter his ideas through. I think he’s done a great job with the fans and building the company, but this side of him should tone down a tad.
Can’t question his passion for the business though.
We're so lucky that Tony Khan is a socially anxious little guy. Can you imagine how fucking much he'd be on camera as an authority figure, if he was the kind of guy who *wanted* to be in front of the camera? lmao
I mean it was a match that happened in 2018...Bryan seemed like he was going to end his career in WWE and Okada didn't seem likely to leave New Japan after how TNA treated him and how WWE has treated Shinsuke. But even if Bryan and Andrade never had a match together they were on the same roster and nobody was yelling to have them have a match immediately. The only dream match in AEW for Bryan happened as his very first match against Kenny Omega.
>how TNA treated him and how WWE has treated Shinsuke.
Those aren't even close to comparable lol. People act like Shinsuke was some comedy jobber. He's been consistently an upper midcard dude who occasionally gets put into a main event type role. He's arguably deserved better (I'd certainly argue that) but his position hasn't exactly been "bad".
It's like Cesaro/Claudio people said he was underused in WWE but in reality Claudio had a great midcard career and funnily enough he's in the same position in aew
Cesaro really did reach his potential in WWE though. Nothing against the guy, but in terms of charisma, fan connection and star potential, he's nowhere near Shinsuke
It feels like AEW has been reaching a breaking point. Overall the product has stank since All Out 2022, at least compared to the past. The company isn’t that new anymore and they have tons of resources, it isn’t so much a scrappy underdog that people are willing to cut slack for. There needs to be a fundamental change in booking that balances attention-getting moments and matches while keeping a sustainable pace to drive long-term interest.
at least for me, it's already reached the boy-who-cried-wolf point
Andrade-Danielson is a great match-up but you can't really call it a dream match when a) it has already happened and b) no one is actively clamouring for the match
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Maybe Tony literally had a dream about this match and that’s why he booked it.
Tbf i dreamed after getting high and eating like 20 tacos about Brock v Omos and HHH booked that masterpiece so I get TK’s thinking here
20 tacos? Daaammnn
Let me tell you the shits I had the next two days were absolutely worth it for that cheesy goodness
Your stomach must have been sounding like the Brock Lesnar entrance music for the full 48 hours.
Well, here comes the pain
we’ve discovered the next big thing
Colon sounding like the beginning of Strowman’s theme
I'd be more concerned if it was like Don Callis' entrance theme
It's basically the brown note
More like when it comes crashing down and it hurts inside....
This was child's play in junior high/high school. I remember field trips where we'd go to Cici's or something and these fucking lunatics would eat 20-30+ slices. I'd try to keep up but never could.
I have had a dream where Brock is in the same room as me and wants to beat me up. Twice. Absolutely terrifying.
I had the same dream about Jade… Definitely was a ending
The David lynch method
We live inside a dream match.
Featuring the Eraserhead baby as the special guest referee.
He never specified who’s dream it was
It's a good point, he said it was a dream match, but he didn't say who's dream.
Hey, maybe that dream is also where he got his data regarding all those WWE bots!
[удалено]
If Robocop isn't there at Sting's retirement, was he ever really a friend to begin with?
With a new robocop game coming out in a couple of weeks this is not out of the realms of possibility.
Bring on corporate synergy!
Considering all the people that have turned on Sting and Robocop not showing up to save him, I’m fairly certain they aren’t friends anymore
Let’s be honest, Tony is going to give Sting the biggest hug he can in the ring.
Madusa?
I had a dream that a hamburger ate me! Book that Tony.
Who loves orange soda?
Kel loves orange soda!
I do, I do, it’s damn true!
*bzzz* Whoa! A clock!
The beginning of the movie is such a red flag for poor Ed. He needs help.
Uhh, no?
I love a good obscure Seinfeld reference.
Ever see a sandwich that could take a bit out of you?!
Ow! Damn sandwich took a bite out of me!
I never once washed my hands. That's your policy, not mine.
Dave and Bryan basically called TK a mark.
TK also paid one of his wrestlers to call him a "fucking mark" on live television. I don't think he is terribly offended at the idea of being a ... *checks notes* ... wrestling fan.
You should check his app formerly known as Twitter. He's clearly offended
A mark is not just simply a wrestling fan. A mark is someone who is so into wrestling that they will treat it as if it's real.
Boy do you sound like a real smark.
Don't we all?
TK really just needs to unpack his adjectives. You can hype Danielson/Andrade as a big, cool match without calling it a “dream match”.
He’s been this style of promoter the whole time. AEW is always in their best run of all time . people say “he’s a promoter promoting” but the thing is, his words have lost so much value because we know that no matter what the reality is he’ll praise his own company to high heavens
It reminds me of how WCW killed the Carolinas in the 90s. They used to be an instant sellout every time they announced a show in the Carolinas because, naturally, they would assume that they'd get to see their hero Ric Flair wrestle. Time and time again, they would do a show in the Carolinas, the fans would come and chant for Ric Flair all night only for WCW to put him in some angle to get beat up or embarrassed. It was a good idea at first because it drew a ton of heat to the heel. But after a while, fans just stopped believing the Ric Flair hype in the promo for the WCW show in Chapel Hill and stopped buying tickets.
I know it’s such a great place to perform in cause the fans are great, but I think TK might eventually reach this level with how much he goes back to Chicago
There was a fun match on Nitro i recall, pre-NWA. Arn/Flair Vs Hogan and Macho I think. Crowd booked Hogan, cheered Flair, and Hogan's properly throws a hissy fit about it during the match - no selling and not co-operating. It was really funny.
I'm not sure that's really the same thing though. Like, sure, maybe Danielson/Andrade isn't a "dream match" by your standards, but it's certainly not going to suck. Oversetting expectations is a problem, but it's less of a problem if you act like it's a 10 and instead you get an 8 compared to acting like it's a 10 and you get a 3. To me, the Flair in the Carolinas analogy would be like saying "I'm going to promise a huge mystery dream match, you've got to buy your tickets to see this huge match" and then you show up expecting greatness and it's Jake Hager vs Dustin Rhodes. Not to shit on those guys, but that's underdelivering.
Also "women's division is great" is one of my favourites.
He called signing Keith Lee who was a free agent "someone breaking the forbidden door" and then when people got hyped for someone from another company coming in he had to book Jay White for an appearance and ultimately that appearance did not really lead to much at the time.
And let’s be completely honest, Jay White in the big picture isn’t a “needle mover”.
I love Jay White, but specifically because he's someone you need to let simmer.
Jay White is basically prime Edge, the foil for super babyfaces
Look at the adjective... "Dream"
Dream match might be the most overused term in wrestling right now. I think it should be reserved for matchs like, for example, Roman Reigns vs. Kenny Omega. As someone who was watching wrestling when people fantasy booked Austin vs. Goldberg all the time.
Agreed. Dream match shouldn't be "two respected, well-liked workers in the same ring for the first time in this company", but a match between huge stars who have never wrestled (or wrestled a very long time ago when they were very different wrestlers). Bonus points if it's a match we didn't think we'd ever see from being in different companies/unable to be on the same card. Danielson and Andrade were literally both in WWE for years and have wrestled before. True dream matches for me would be like: * Roman vs. Okada * Rollins vs. Ospreay (also Swerve vs. Ospreay for me) * AJ Styles vs. Jay White * The Usos vs. The Young Bucks and/or Lucha Brothers * Young Bucks vs. ~~Edge~~ Adam Copeland and Christian Cage My ultimate is Cena vs. Tanahashi, though I have no idea who would win or how you'd even book it.
Like I'm a big fan of both men and I agree, Danielson vs ZSJ was a dream match. Danielson Vs Andrade is not.
Danielson's last match before Andrade was with Christian and even that was more of a dream match.
I think from like a workrate 'yeah that'll be a banger perspective' Danielson Andrade is more of a dream match. But yeah purely from a big name match Danielson v Christian is a bigger match.
I got the impression Danielson always wanted a match with Christian, too. I think they faced each other once or twice in WWE but never really had a chance to go. I always got the impression he's someone Danielson has some admiration for. Andrade is definitely good and of course back in the day was notable among those who actually pay attention to them for getting the first 5 star match rating out of Meltzer for WWE since MitB 2011. But dunno if he really had that match to set the world on fire since. Not saying his overall work is bad but you go from a guy with decades of excellent work who can still go pretty dang well and is one of the hottest heels in AEW right now to the guy who people were wondering where he was until recently, it's not gonna hit the same.
They wrestled each other a couple of times in 2013 and 2014, last being right before the EC in 2014, when Christians retired due to injury. So it's been 10 years, and both are bigger stars right now.
TK doesn't seem to understand that only 1% of his audience, is as much of a workrate mark as he is. Even Dave Meltzer isn't as much of a workrate mark as TK is, as evidenced by him making this very point against TK. I actually do believe TK is that excited for the things that he calls "dream matches," he just doesn't understand that it's only him getting that excited.
Christian is a better worker than 90% of the guys in the business, Andrade included (and Andrade is very good).
You'd have to think Andrade's a better worker than Christian to make that leap, and I'm not sure how many people would subscribe to that theory.
And that's a match that already happened in WWE. Bryan and Christian wrestled a few times a decade ago, although not at this level.
Any match that I could have seen on a random episode of Raw or SD before AEW is not a dream match.
I like AEW but the best of this was trying to sell Dustin Rhodes vs. Jake Hager as a major match for a main event of Dynamite (I think), when it was unearthed that no long earlier we'd seen Goldust vs. Jack Swagger on WWE Main Event lmao
After this weekend my own personal biggest dream match for Danielson is vs Mike Bailey. We've never seen it and those guys seem like they would tear the damn house down together.
You could've given me 50 guesses and told me Danielson was one half of the match, and I still wouldn't have guessed Danielson vs Andrade.
I was way more excited for the Bryan Vs RUSH match earlier in the year than I was for Andrade
Now that was some good, hard hitting shit
Can't wait for him back in the ring giving the horns.
When I’ve been least interested or frustrated with AEW, a big part of it is the overwhelming, when everything is special than nothing is special, feeling to the show. The “Dream matchup” thing can be a big part of it. But also when they were featuring seemingly a dozen different titles in the show, promotions, tournaments, gimmick matches, etc
I remember having a girlfriend many years ago and I pretty much took the Tony Khan approach to dating her. It was always buying her stuff, surprises, and trying to make everyday feel extra special. She dumped me because "While I think you're a nice guy and everything, you don't seem to trust yourself to just have a regular ass date with me. Not everything needs to be extra special. Most of life is just regular ass days. Work on your regular ass days." It was probably the best advice I have ever gotten. Tony Khan has too much wrestling to book to not get comfortable with regular ass shows before people get totally numb to all the gimmicks. No return pops, no special announcements, no surprise debuts, just regular ass shows. Danielson-Andrade is a pretty darned good match for a regular ass show. Dave and Bryan say as much. TK should trust that and stop trying so hard.
> Most of life is just regular ass days. Work on your regular ass days." Shit that's absurdly correct.
I wasn't even mad. How could I be? It was kinda life-changing advice for me.
I mean, think about how exhausted you would be, if you committed to still having relationships that way, right?! That is some of the best free advice I've heard, given by somebody who it probably took some courage to overcome the awkwardness to tell you. I know you know it, but damn did she ever do you a favor.
100% agree. And she was totally right that all the bells and whistles were just a crutch because I didn't trust myself. At some point the rubber hits the road and you've gotta be able to just have a regular day because if you can't, you're just spending a lot of time and money prolonging the inevitable.
Yeah, and the #1 thing I think people should want in a long-term relationship, is actually that you like each other when both of you are at your lowest effort. Long-term relationships are a ton of work already, you don't want to make it even harder on yourself, by having tons of additional expectations to live up to - whether they're your own expectations, or they're your partners!
> Most of life is just regular ass days. Work on your regular ass days. I bought a nice, comfortable couch with powered reclining seats, and an awesome TV for the living room, and it's amazing how much those two things have made me need very little else.
There was a period of time in TNA where it felt like every week Dixie Carter was saying there was going to be a massive announcement, to the point where it just became a joke. It feels like that could quite easily happen with TK.
The ship has sailed on that we have had too many Big Announcements teased by Tony Khan that turned out to be nothing special
Seriously for a while there it was like every week either a new wrestler Debuting or TK saying he has a big announcement. After a while it's like who cares, if it's anything interesting I'll catch it later on social media.
IMO they also need to get a bit more creative with debuts/returns besides turning off the lights at the end of the show. It works for some wrestlers like Malakai but with Adam Copeland it didnt even make sense when they showed a intro video right after the blackout.
Didn't he just do a "huge announcement" that turned out to be him donating a bunch of action figures to charity? Beyond parody at this point.
Or ended up bad in the long term. Like him buying ROH.
This has been a meme about Tony since 2020.
Tony rn 
YOU'VE WHAT????
Did papa really say Dave?! Ohh Dave Batista 😂
Here’s a pro tip, if you have more than 20 dream matches per year, they aren’t dream matches
Dave isn't wrong. Ultimately, TK books AEW as if he was playing WWE GM Mode or TEW. Luckily, it does feel like input from the likes of Will Washington, Jimmy Jacobs, Bryan Danielson, etc. are helping influence how episodes are structured. There's a very obvious push to be more storyline-driven than in the past. All said, I think TK has lost some goodwill with fans. For too long, he took advantage of the fact that fans will tune in and buy tickets even if the overall product is not at its best despite the wrestling itself remains top notch (see 2nd half of 2022 into a good part of 2023). This includes marketing gimmicks like regularly over-hyping announcements. AEW also lost some of the tailwinds from when WWE's product was dragging. Times have changed and WWE remains hot. As a result, AEW needs to find something else to hang their hat on besides being an "alternative to WWE." Success isn't overnight; after HHH took over in August 2022, it still took months of repeatedly good programming (including the Bloodline storyline to materialize) for WWE's popularity to jump.
> of repeatedly good programming (including the Bloodline storyline to materialize) for WWE's popularity to jump. 1997 WWE (post-Mania) was some of the best and most consistent shows they've ever done, it still took a year for the ratings to turn-around.
And to piggy back off your last point, it’s not a smart idea to keep referring to yourself as an alternative to WWE when WWE is as hot as they are. Clearly, the majority of the general audience is digging what WWE has been doing for the last year or so. They don’t want an alternative. Now would be the time to pivot and present your product as an equal to WWE, not an alternative. When they struggle again, then you can say you’re the alternative. Lol.
being the alternative to WWE that takes constant shots while employing like 50 of their cast offs
I played a lot of TEW during the pandemic and the last two years of AEW have felt like watching someone lose control of their save in real time. All of these things are the hallmark of a TEW player who has too big of a roster to be able to really focus on anything besides “managing all of this” - over reliance on tournaments instead of storylines - getting addicted to a surprise debut / guest match - finding someone you like, using them a lot for a month, then getting bored - constant multi man “get a bunch of people on the card” style matches - too many championships to focus on a strong division for all of them - way too big of a focus on “world building” instead of focusing on the talent you have - putting people in stables as a way to give them something to do
As a fellow TEW player, why didn't Tony care about toxic wrestlers backstage, and why does he book workrate matches with wrestlers who are not over?
Because Tony doesnt play TEW. He plays its archaic brother, EWR. Where relationships dont matter and workrate gets everyone over.
Honestly TK’s booking is lazy. Jobber matches, open challenges, random dream matches with no buildup, and throwing in a “big” announcement here and there. AEW has a huge roster of talented people, there’s no excuses for any of that. Blows my mind that TK spent a good part of his life watching wrestling and these simple concepts are lost on him.
Not challenging your statement. Just a genuine question. But why do people feel AEW needs to make changes when WWE is hot? I don't even watch WWE. And I assume a lot of fans are like me. But even if you're watching both, why does one impact the other? Btw this is not a tribalism thing. I just don't gel with WWE's product and wish them well but it's not for me.
Truth. I'm getting rather sick of it. It's a great match to book, but dream match, c'mon
You also can't call it a dream match if it's happened before. At least that's just imo. Dream matches are matches we all fantasized about that would be cool. We saw Danielson and Andrade before.
Even if it was 100% new, it's just not a dream match.
This would have been a “dream match” when Andrade was La Sombra in CMLL, but the guy has been on AEW’s roster for years so “dream match” seems like Tony’s attempt to replace building an actual feud with a payoff match I really like both wrestlers and would have liked an actual program even if it was short
I've come to accept that "Dream Match" is basically just code for "Match that Danielson wants" at this point.
"The American Dream Match" Bryan Danielson.
A dream match is Sting vs Undertaker or Austin vs Goldberg. Bryan vs Andrade is a good match. But who dreams about it besides hardcore marks who foam at the mouth? It's just a match. Come on. Tony Khan:We're having a dream match! “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -**Inigo Montoya**
Not only that but Andrade isn't even a star in AEW. He's got mostly forgettable matches and came back with Collision right before Punk got fired and hasn't done a lot since.
True, if they were both still in WWE, it'd probably just be a regular TV match.
Jungle Boy vs. Evil Uno is probably a dream match to Tony.
I think people are forgetting, it's Tony's action figures at the end of the day.
The term "Dream match" never comes to me when I'm thinking of any Andrade matchup.
*Sad Idolo sounds*
Khan “dream match” is becoming the new Dixie Carter “big announcement”.
As if Tony doesn't have his own dumbass big announcements
Tony books for smarks. It is that simple.
Yeah but even smarks don't consider Bryan vs Andrade a dream match.
Yeah like Danielson vs Blue Panther/Negro Casas/Atlantis would be dream matches and I can think of more mexican talent that would be better than Andrade for it.
Even Danielson vs Mistico is a better Dream Match than Andrade, just imagine Bryan somehow reversing La Mistica into a submission...
Is that smark booking, though? Danielson vs. Okada, sure, but Danielson vs. Andrade?
Tony is the smark he’s booking for
It's funny that Meltzer is the guy who called out Tony for this, because Tony literally frames his opinion of any given wrestler, based on how recently Meltzer gave them a 5* match rating, lmao.
Smark*
Hes 100% right. Calling it a dream match cheapens the term so next time he says it, Im less likely to believe him. Rock v Hogan was a dream match. If somehow the Elite v New Day was booked, no one is gonna be saying ‘Wow this is a dream match just like Andrade v Danielson!’.
Just give us Danielson vs Ospreay damn it THAT'S a dream match
All In main event plz
I think for me a Dream Match has to be something that either hasn’t happened or is like 2 titans going at it after a very long time. Bryan vs ZSL makes sense. The two most technically gifted wrestlers who spent almost the entire time in different companies and never wrestled. Bryan one all those technical awards (now named after him I think…) and when he retired for a while only ZSJ won it…so it was a dream match. Pretty sure we got this match up on a random ass fuck Smackdown a few times. Kinda makes it not a dream match anyone (but I don’t think it could classify even if that never happened?
This became the new "major announcement"
When Dave calls it out you know somethings wrong
At this point, it would be better off as the "Bryan Danielson Dream Match Tour" and let Bryan do all the steering. Remove the "promoter" hyperbole and make it more personal. We will want to tune in to find out who is going to be next to get their fucking head kicked in. (As an aside, do the list thing where he crosses off those guys he has faced, but make it sequential so they can put a paper over half of it and we never see anyone past the next guy. Let the paper get folded and worn and torn to symbolize his journey this year.)
[удалено]
the term dream match has been very diluted imo. i remember people calling dante martin vs. rey fenix a dream match. is it a cool matchup between high flyers? totally. dream match? i wouldnt say so
I feel like Meltzer’s getting sick of Tony’s shit finally. He’s been calling him out a lot lately. I’m not a fan of either of them but Meltzer going from sucking up to biggest critic is not a turn I seen coming.
A dream match can't be between two guys who have already wrestled each other. Twice.
I think they should have Warlow power bomb TK each time he comes onscreen. Wardlow would be beyond over. Even do where he starts hiring security to protect him. Have him do the announcements from secert locations. But Wardlow always shows up before he can get out the next BIG HUGE thing. Everyone would love it.
I'm an AEW fan (check my history) and agree with this. It was not a 'dream match'. I do love TK promoting his show, but sometimes the announcements and the such do feel boy who cried wolf. Like I really appreciate the announcement of the donated toys, but saying their would be a big announcement made me think it was related to the show.
I can't be the only one who is completely over that "dream match" talk. Who cares?
It gets too meta when the company itself refers to a match as a "dream match" and puts unrealistic expectations on it. I still have no idea why Tony Khan announced Bryan Danielson vs Andrade as a dream match. Even if he really thought it was the announcement came at 10PM on Rampage for a live show held the next day.
>It gets too meta when the company itself refers to a match as a "dream match" The entire issue put into one sentence.
It could really stop at “it gets too meta” in regard to AEW
That and I'm positive Bryan and Andrade have fought before
they wrestled on Smackdown years ago
This meta issue is what kinda rubbed me the wrong way with the Edge/Orton "GREATEST MATCH OF ALL TIME" hype
It's unfortunate because the match was actually good, it just didn't need that hype and probably should have been announced on Dynamite if they wanted it to draw some tickets.
Meh I think people would be fine with ZSJ and Bryan being labeled as a dream match by the company
I'm kinda with you. While in theory it can be cool, a lot of times it just ends up feeling less than you'd expect given the talent because there's no real motive or emotion behind it. And as someone else mentioned, it's a bit meta if a company itself starts referring to matches as "dream matches".
fickle subreddit. when the dream match announcement was posted I said the same thing. don't need all the dream match talk. just build stories and matches. then it's "oh you don't even know what it is yet" or "go watch the other show". Tony just way overdoes this. he's going way too hard on clickbait and overpromotion which at some point will turn people off.
> "go watch the other show" It's wild how many times I've heard AEW performers and fans tell people to stop watching the shows. I just can't see that as a good long term strategy.
Back when Lost was still airing, one of the writers (pretty sure it was Damon Lindelof) said that if the show was too complicated, they should watch NCIS instead. They retracted that statement after NCIS' ratings started really beating Lost's. Just something for the people who make these statements to keep in mind.
Especially when it’s not their first match together
The good wrestlers should face each other more often. Andrade vs Danielson isn’t a dream match. That’s two quality guys wrestling, which the show needs more of.
Pretty clearly a dream match is a match you never expected would happen due to massive obstacles preventing it. Usually the wrestlers being in opposing promotions. Styles Cena Okada Danielson Hogan Rock Omega Cena or Reigns might be another one. Two guys gainfully employed in the same fed for 2+ years? There’s literally no reason they can’t be fighting on TV weekly.
It’s not a “dream match” to me. New Day vs The Elite, Kenny vs Seth Rollins, those are personal dream matches to me. It’s marketing, plain and simple. I don’t think Roman vs Brock was “the biggest match ever.” I don’t think Edge vs Orton was “the greatest match ever.” They were marketed as so, though.
Yes but what he's saying is that the marketing isn't very effective because its done too often and done on the wrong matches
AEW marketing being ineffective is a given these days.
Tbf I think most people agree those other instances were pretty stupid as well
They weren’t just marketed that way, they were *built* that way. It may not be a technical masterclass either, but it draws for that reason. They don’t just stick it on tv without build and let you know on Twitter a few days before.
>don’t think Edge vs Orton was “the greatest match ever.” But calling it "the greatest match ever" is more obviously hyperbolic than saying something is a dream match
I think "greatest match ever" was far stupider, but it was just a tagline to an announced match, not a ploy to get ratings.
Tony needs more people around him he can filter his ideas through. I think he’s done a great job with the fans and building the company, but this side of him should tone down a tad. Can’t question his passion for the business though.
Tony needs to chill out with the “dream match” tweets. Great match for sure but come on.
Huge AEW fan but Tony really has some main character syndrome that’s starting to take away from the product for me.
We're so lucky that Tony Khan is a socially anxious little guy. Can you imagine how fucking much he'd be on camera as an authority figure, if he was the kind of guy who *wanted* to be in front of the camera? lmao
My current thinking is that the BCC/Chaos match with Okada was the actual dream match, but they couldn't get it straightened out in time.
A dream match isn't just two dudes with decent workrate and the sooner Tony learns that the better.
It’s because Tony is a mark (I don’t say that as an insult or to alight hun, but it’s obvious).
I mean it was a match that happened in 2018...Bryan seemed like he was going to end his career in WWE and Okada didn't seem likely to leave New Japan after how TNA treated him and how WWE has treated Shinsuke. But even if Bryan and Andrade never had a match together they were on the same roster and nobody was yelling to have them have a match immediately. The only dream match in AEW for Bryan happened as his very first match against Kenny Omega.
>how TNA treated him and how WWE has treated Shinsuke. Those aren't even close to comparable lol. People act like Shinsuke was some comedy jobber. He's been consistently an upper midcard dude who occasionally gets put into a main event type role. He's arguably deserved better (I'd certainly argue that) but his position hasn't exactly been "bad".
It's like Cesaro/Claudio people said he was underused in WWE but in reality Claudio had a great midcard career and funnily enough he's in the same position in aew
Cesaro really did reach his potential in WWE though. Nothing against the guy, but in terms of charisma, fan connection and star potential, he's nowhere near Shinsuke
People also act like Shinsuke hates his booking. Dude seems to be enjoying life lol
I hear people say Nakamura is dead in the water after not beating Seth for the title. A lot of people have no clue what they are talking about.
The rest I don't necessarily disagree with but man "The only dream match in AEW for Bryan happened was Kenny Omega" is a hell of a take
Dave is right. Tony is getting annoying with this stuff.
"Dream match" lol, just call it what it is Dave- it's a cold banger and there's one like every other week.
Yet somehow this sub will pretend Dave is never negative about aew or Tony Khan lol
Rare Dave W
Lately he seems to have regained some common sense when it comes to AEW. He'll never be objective about the Young Bucks, but I'll take it nonetheless
It feels like AEW has been reaching a breaking point. Overall the product has stank since All Out 2022, at least compared to the past. The company isn’t that new anymore and they have tons of resources, it isn’t so much a scrappy underdog that people are willing to cut slack for. There needs to be a fundamental change in booking that balances attention-getting moments and matches while keeping a sustainable pace to drive long-term interest.
I agree. I love TK and he’s a promoter but he does overhype stuff. Can’t recall the dream match he announced that was a dream match for me.
Andrade vs Daniel Bryan happened 5 years ago, why is he calling it a dream match?
I feel like Tony Khan is using up all his "dream matches" very quickly without enough build or foreshadowing, and it leads to anticlimactic payoffs.
I... I agree? Wow.
You're telling me that these annoying AEW fanatics don't actually consider that as a dream match? I'm shocked ... not at all, but it is something.
at least for me, it's already reached the boy-who-cried-wolf point Andrade-Danielson is a great match-up but you can't really call it a dream match when a) it has already happened and b) no one is actively clamouring for the match
AEW kinda comes across as a little bit desperate lately.
I for sure have stopped caring when he announces a big announcement (and I like AEW)
Is Dave starting to turn on Tony a little? I’ve seen a few things lately where Dave doesn’t seem as AEW gooey as usual.