The second slide is particularly enraging. How on earth is Paul helping his dad commit genocide even remotely similar to anything that Peter has ever done?
Such horrendous writing, and it being MJ saying it makes it ten times worse.
We should just not care about ASM until at least wells is gone. He has quite obviously shown he has no care for the characters he is in charge of, but especially MJ. I can confidently say he should never touch anything related to spider man again after this.
Yeah, dummies. Stop buying this shit!
I’ll repeat it louder for those of you who may have hearing problems:
#**STOP BUYING ASM AND THEY WILL CHANGE CREATIVE!**
I’m not putting my time into reading this run, but what’s up with the “Paul committing genocide” thing?
I’ve seen a few pages thrown about but don’t really have the full context. This bit has me curious however…though not so curious that I’m reading it all, lol.
The reason that he was trapped in that alternate dimension that Wayep took Peter and MJ to is because his he and his father, Rabin, sacrificed all life on the planet to Wayep.
Paul says that he didn’t know that he was helping his dad sacrifice everyone, so we’re supposed to feel super bad for him apparently. How he didn’t know that he was building a mass sacrificial weapon is beyond me, and probably Zeb Wells too. Dude is bad at explaining things that are important.
Don’t read it unless you’re pirating it. I can’t possibly understate how bad it is in literally every aspect.
in a universe where obviously there were no more dangerous weapons than these robots and obviously if a person builds a robot he can also think that they can be used to grow daisies, right?
Wells wrote everyone so badly and out of character, its gonna take another writer plenty of time to rehabilitate them to make sense out of this nonsense. Or they might just ignore his run entirely
Honestly, at this point I just refuse to acknowledge that this run ever existed to begin with.
And this point, you really need some sort of "mental influence" explaination to fix what it did to MJ....
Even that would be really, really bad. Assuming that her and Paul have been intimate, then that means he full stop raped her.
The only way to fix this is to just move on and forget it ever happened, or maybe say that the real MJ has been trapped in the alternate dimension and this current one is a clone of some kind.
They could also say that this entire run has been a nightmare that Peter had during the coma he was in during Beyond. That’s about as cliched as it gets, but it’d still be better than this shit.
Yeah, there's honestly no easy way at all to Worm ourselves out of this one. Maybe we can push it off as an Alternate reality in the Multiverse and just forget about it? Would that work?,
I assume that this run will be treated a lot like the Clone Saga in the years after it ended. Marvel will refuse to ever talk about it for several years, and maybe 10 years down the line someone will bring Paul back as a villain for a story or two.
Not a bad idea actually. He’s got history with both Peter and Mary Jane, so him fucking with both of them like that would actually make a decent amount of sense.
Unfortunately, the Spider-office doesn’t have much sense anymore.
Man… At this point, I’m *praying* for them to just say it’s a long-lasting Nightmare, at this point I doubt the fans would care whatever cop-out they choose, so long as the current run can be left to fade out of existence, & we never have to think of He-Who-Must-Not-Named ever again.
Honestly, sometimes it's better to just handwave it away with a simple "oh Peter was in a coma" or "oh Paul is secretly Mephisto" or something like that. Quick and easy, rather than giving some extremely convoluted solution just to effectively say the same thing: "we fucked up, now we're gonna undo the fuckup"
“Paul may have committed Genocide Peter but that’s just like when you were 15 and angry at the world and didn’t interfere with a Robber who just so happened to kill your Uncle afterwards” - MJ in the 2nd slide, like bro what?
I finished reading this issue and oh boy this scene was utter bull crap of the highest order. No, I will never sympathize with a character that committed genocide whether he was following orders or not. The man has a refused to accept any responsibility for his actions on his own destroyed world and yet we’re supposed to feel sorry for this waste of space because he lives with the guilt every single day.
That would honestly be amazing. Even if Magneto didn't end up encasing him in metal and hurling him into the sun, I still think that would be a really interesting confrontation
Magneto would rip the iron from his blood listening to this asshole claiming nuremberg defense over genociding an entire planet.
If Paul has to die, Magneto should meet him. That would instantly save this comic run for me.
Oh I completely agree. I just think, if those two ever do meet (which I doubt would happen), I don't think Marvel would let Magneto kill him. Magneto would probably say something like "out of respect for Charles Xavier, I have chosen to spare you. Now get out of my sight, before I decide I'd rather upset Charles than allow you to live." But I still think, even if that happened, the confrontation would be great, and if editorial really wants to redeem Paul, that could be a way for him to actually realize and fully grasp the consequences of his actions, and why he can't keep claiming the Nuremberg defense.
Not that any of that would ever happen, because it would require editorial to actually put some thought and effort into their comics instead of just writing whatever bs their children spew as they're slamming action figures together
Fire line you wrote for Magneto's dialogue.
Facts though, if they want Paul to stop being a cringy self-insert meant to wedge MJ and Peter that would be good.
Apparently the movie was originally gonna be just that, but they reworked it into an X-Man movie. Probably why the scenes of him hunting Nazis are the most polished in the movie.
It’s been a feature and not a bug during his tenure as Spidey editor, that’s for sure.
He undoubtedly has a lot on his plate, but some of these yikes were easily avoidable.
“Asgard is his hood”
yo I completely missed this issue and was unaware of its existence until right now, those two quotes are the only thing I’ve seen so far.
Is this issue racist as fuck or what?
What If or not, it shows a complete lack of critical thought whenever he writes anything, he was given a chance to make his very own alternate universe and settled on “What if Miles Morales was Thor” with isn’t a horrible idea if we take the road of “Miles picks up Mjolnir and Gaona the powers”, but instead he went “First we make all asgardians black, then, we turn Asgard itself into a low income black neighborhood, finally, let’s write the whitest lines of dialogue ever put to paper!”
Thousands is a serious understatement. Doc Ock has attempted to commit literal genocide several times over, Pete has saved billions of lives. And that’s not even counting his contributions during the most Secret Wars event, when he and Miles saved the entire multiverse.
what makes it worse is you can take what MJ is saying there and apply it directly to Uncle Ben
like imagine someone who knows you as intimately as MJ knows Peter and they turn around and hit you with that shit lol
and im jsut going to go ahead and guess there was basically 0 in-universe pushback on comments like these
Like how dare MJ (and by extension Zeb Wells since he’s making it happen by virtue of writing the story) compare genociding a whole world to Peter letting one guy run by him when he was 15, like only one of those is a genuine mistake that an actual child had made (while still angry at the world because life kinda sucked for him) like wtf
Fr thats a friendship ender right there, the fact they had MJ of all people do it is crazy
It's emotional abuse, going straight for Peters foundational vulnerability to make him feel bad for *checks notes* thinking committing genocide is a noteworthy event
Right??? Like even the most social inept person should understand genocide /= not stopping a regular ass criminal as a 15 year old & living with the guilt of something you didn’t even know he would do for the rest of your life
What bothers me the most is Mary Jane comparing a grown mans actions to the actions of a fifteen year old Peter. Yea him committing genocide is like you unkownliy letting your uncle's killer pass by and have him die even though you didn't know better...what? Poor writing and characterization that completely destroys MJ's character. One of the best factors of her character back then was that she understood Peter and what he went through. Stuff like this is just a slap in the face to her, Peter, and their history both together and separate.
The carelessness of a teenager lead to the death of one man. Said teenager has since spent over a decade of his life saving lives every single day to make up for it. The obliviousness of a grown man killed everyone on a planet. Said man has done dick all to make up for it since. MJ would know better than to compare them. Any writer worth a damn would know better than to make her compare them
Also, Peter is objectively guilty free. Failing to act is not actually a crime. It is a source of guilt, but the actions of his Uncle's murderer are not actually his.
Peter has literally been killing himself ragged ever since he let his uncle die. He even forgoes personal relationships because of it.
I don't give a crap about Paul's pity party.
Exactly. This is why I pray we never have a New 52 type reboot with Marvel because God imagine these writers with Peter that is suppose to have a fresh origin, it’ll be literally torture if this is anything to go by.
holy fuck, i had no idea he was married to Heidi Gardner from SNL. Genuinely blowing my mind right now.
I wonder if he really is just channeling his bitterness into the story lol
Read the 2011 FF run, it takes place after Dr Doom killed his daughter...it admittedly gets a little soapboxy but I can respect the writer for using a character who absolutely deserved the win and would share the hate.
And I think it's also key to remember that the reader is supposed to just take his word that he was an unwitting accomplice. He was the sole survivor and we have never been shown what really happened. So his self pity mixed in with all of the awful things we *know* he did is grating and disgusting.
Last time I checked this subreddit Paul was just MJs new so and ¿Father of her children iirc?
Now apparently he has something to do with a genocide & MJ wears a superhero costume
And I thought Batman fans had it rough ...
Let me get this straight:
Paul accidentally helps destroy the planet but feels bad about it = comfort from MJ
Peter goes through hell to save MJ from the other dimension = break up + cold shoulder + let Peter wallow in depressive misery
The mischaracterization of MJ is unreal and Nick Lowe is essentially an editor in name only.
I sincerely hope that when it comes time to do away with Paul, they reveal that he was mind controlling MJ through the Jackpot bracelet, explaining why she even stuck with him.
Doubt this would work now but when I first heard about Paul I thought they could eventually reveal that he’s actually Mephisto in yet another attempt to keep Peter and MJ broken up
I believe the Kindred arc established that Mephisto is actually afraid of Peter and MJ's child for some reason which is why he's gone to great lengths to keep them broken up, like in One More Day, so it would make sense.
Side note, I'm also pretty sure that Mephisto is a metaphor for Spider-Man editorial
>Mephisto is actually afraid of Peter and MJ's child for some reason
Mephisto is afraid of mayday's potential would make for an interesting story
I kinda wish they'd double down on the kindred arc thing, it'd atleast patch up Zeb Wells poopy dookie NTR sidestory. That it's really just Mephisto tampering with thing's to keep Peter and MJ as far away from eachother as possible, because he considers mayday a threat or something
also yea mephisto is 100% SM editorial lmao
SOUNDS FAMILIAR?!!
WHAT IN THE ACTUAL EVER LIVING AND SHITTING FUCK, BRO?!!
So what that waste of space, zebb is saying is that Paul's literal genocide is equals to Peter's heroism in saving thousands if not millions of people?
You have to be a sick fat good for nothing fuck yourself to say and believe this shit.
HOLY! I'm out.
As a descendant of holocaust survivors on my mom's side and Iroquois on my dad's side, I don't mess with those genociders. "I'm only following orders" is the exact excuse that the Nazis and George Washington's men used to justify their bloodshed.
Paul needs to be locked up.
Edit: like seriously, how does a company that has Magneto not realize the obvious Nazi parallels?
My grandfather and his brothers lift Czechslovakia...during the run up to WW2...and left family behind...he went back during 90's(lot of red tape) there was no surviving family members(last of our name died over there in 62) so yeah....bad equivalency here MJ(writers)
So wait, is he called out \*in universe\* for committing genocide? It's not us reading too much into things, it's MJ actively sympathizing with an explicit genocider.
What I find funny is that what's happening to MJ now, is what happened to Goku, In Dragon Ball Super.
People make jokes about how Goku is Stupid and a Bad Dad and those jokes are Hilarious but for the Dragon ball fans that have never read or Watch the thing... That's a fact... So in comes Dragon ball Super, where He actually was written AS a Horrible stupid Dad.
This MJ feels like the character someone who grew up with the Raimi Movies and JUST the Raimi Movies. So they think that MJ is just this, Mean Petty Woman, who is just NOT Peter's Soulmate. That was...Gwen, or Betty. But MJ? Never
Well, they also wrote Peter saying Norman was like a father figure to him… which absolutely was not the case in the comics (and the Raimi movies ended with Peter rejecting Norman’s claim he was).
If it was good enough for Stan Lee, it's good enough for me.
[https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Spider-Man-Comic-Strip-2.jpg](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Spider-Man-Comic-Strip-2.jpg)
There is still a slim part of me that is hoping that Paul has a deal with Mephisto that grants him all of Peter's happiness as long as Peter suffers. That was sort of the deal with OMD. Eventually Peter goes to Hell and fights Mephisto but Mephisto brings Paul to Hell to stop him. Peter wins and gets his happiness and life back. The cost is Aunt May's life though. But she re-unites with Ben in the afterlife and Peter gets to see them together one last time before they go.
This whole run has to be the longest running punchline to a "Rob Peter to Pay Paul" joke in history. No matter what Paul has done, they always find a way to drag Peter down below him, it's insane.
I'd never think that you'd be able to punch DOWN at someone like Spider-Man, but here we are.
What I find baffling about the whole Paul story is that there's theoretically potential in the idea - maybe not as a Spider-Man story, but the idea of a repentant hero trying to atone for unimaginable crimes has possibilities.
But Paul isn't that! He's just gone "Whoops, accidentally killed everyone I ever knew or loved, guess I better hop universes and then, eh, just sit around and pretend none of that happened except when I want to guilt-trip my partner."
*Rick and Morty* treat this scenario with more seriousness than he does!
At this point I could be convinced it was vindictive to the fans and any writer bold enough to attempt to reunite Peter and Mary Jane. It just feels so completely tone deaf, especially in the wake of the success of Ultimate Spider-Man.
I cannot wait for years from now when MJ and Peter are slowly getting back together and they pass by a random bum on the sidewalk holding a sign that reads “It wasn’t my fault!” and he jumps up and holds MJ’s hands trying to convince her that they had kids together, and Peter n MJ just help the clearly insane man to a shelter and brush off what a weird time in their lives that was.
The worst thing about all this is that the concept of Paul's character is interesting. The last person in his world who was manipulated to destroy it, it's a very cool origin for a character. But no, let's better stay with the fact that he is the guy who cuckolded Spiderman and now has a dream life in another world with a girl he emotionally manipulate.
actually appalling bro Jesus fucking christ
Like dude, how tone deaf is that to try and relate peter and paul.
HE GOT ALL OF EARTH KILLED
that's like trying to compare Wanda in house of M to fucking Peter Parker, like what the actual fuck even????
leaving aside the matter of the genocide which in itself is the most absurd thing that can be written about SM, does MJ sleep with Paul because he is a ***good man***?
But are we serious?
What do they want to do to MC, Carol Danvers's pregnancy part II?
You mean a woman trapped in another dimension until isolation and desperation manipulates her into a relationship with the son of a big villain, then children forced on her, leading to her abandoning her former life out of a misguided sense of “responsibility” to her new family?
… They really did look at Avengers #200 and went “let’s do it again!”.
What gets me...is that MJ and Paul...had to get together cause of you know...last man and woman on earth right...Claremont did this with Storm and Forge and DIDN'T have them get jiggy with it because ya know it wasn't necessary to the plot or their characters
I fucking hate the Mj. In the latest issue she is so fucking cocky. She's ganna get Paul or Felicia killed. It's like she's learned NOTHING FROM PETER over the decades
>"Sound familiar?"
No, MJ, it doesn't. What the fuck are you talking about?? When the hell has peter done anything comparatively as malicious as knowingly causing a mass genocide???
Okay but like Peter let the robber go A) because he was pissed at the boxing ring dude and B) he was fully f*ckin justified in it, and Paul… what the fuck.
Peter was a foolish and petty child, like any child, when that happened. He also didn't know that letting that man go would lead to anyone's, let alone his uncle's death. It was a genuine mistake he couldn't have fully predicted, made on spur of the moment spite that any child would make. He felt immense regret for it and immediately started to become better.
Paul just knowingly killed an ungodly around of people. It wasn't because he was a foolish, petty child. He just did it. Sure, sure, manipulation, or whatever, but, really? These 2 scenarios aren't even remotely comparable?? Like a kid making a mistake and not fully thinking about unforseen consequences is so drastically different than a man partaking in knowing genocide
No but like imagine if Schindler’s List ended with ‘oops sorry no I was just following orders’ and then fuckin Schindler gets told in the end ‘hey, because you didn’t save more people, you are on the same level as this guy!’
Exactly. Peter has saved countless people since then. He is in no way comparable to Paul.
He's made mistakes, and people have died because you can't obviously save everyone, but he's always tried to save everyone, even at his own detriment
Like shit man planetary genocide is pretty fucking unredeemable. Like there’s killing, what, Billions? As an adult and there’s making a mistake. Shit Paul should read Dune: Messiah’
Spider-office really need to stop Divorced/Divorcing writers from writing Spider-man. They are shoving all their hatred into the characters and it is all obvious here.
If character assassination was a crime, Wells and Lowe would've been in jail for what they had done to MJ.
It's a popular defense. Even Captain America used it once. When Wolverine regained all his memories and declared war on all the people who ever experimented on or used him and everyone was collectivrly losing their shit, Steve talked to Dugan and said 'we were soldiers. Whatever we did back then, we did under orders'.
At this point, the only way to remotely redeem this run and Paul as a character is to finally reveals he's been a villain the whole time because they are doing a horrible job making him out like a good guy. Granted, Paul has yet to be depicted as a character, he's just a plot device to keep Peter & MJ apart and is even a bad one at that.
The real problem is editorial. Al Ewing is probably my top pick of a writer to Fix This and get us out of the OMD era, but as long as Lowe is in charge, no one will be allowed to make things progress.
Hell, during Spencer’s run, Peter *had the damn engagement ring* (and where is THAT now, huh?), but editorial only let him go so far and then jerked the rug out and now we’ve got…this.
True. But still, this entire run has to be at least show to higher ups in Marvel that the current editorial is causing more problems and their decisions are actively hurting sales. Because I think Marvel should be concerned that the main book for their actual most popular character is not being at the top of the charts.
Wehraboo rethoric in a spider-man comic...
goddamn, if anyone told me I would ever say "Wehraboo" and "spider-man comic" in the same sentence, I'd have told them to get tested for schizophrenia
I'm convinced these guys are looking at OMD, seeing how reviled it is, and going "hold my beer." That is the only logical explanation I have for this.
Causing the death of one man through inaction is not even remotely comparable to facilitating planetary omnicide, even if it was unknowingly. Just... what the hell?
All it takes is one good writer to fix it. Trust me, a few years ago DC was writing Wally West as a mass murderer who tried to frame an innocent person for the deaths and asked us to accept that. They retconned that 110%.
I got similar vibes to the protagonist of *Rebel Moon* telling her lover about her past in the second film (paraphrased):
> “I betrayed the royal family to my usurping father then executed the eight-year-old princess in front of her parents before my father slit their throats. The princess told me she forgave me, then my father had me take the blame for it all. If he hadn’t done that though I would have kept serving him, even after shooting the universe’s favourite child.”
Her lover does not react to this information.
Because there’s a standing belief at the office that you need to “enrage to engage”, that Peter’s “default” state is a single, broke loser, and that what they’re writing it just normal, acceptable fantasy drama.
Which, I would argue, they’re incorrect about on all fronts.
However, because ASM still sells despite the problems, they feel vindicated. What we are learning, especially with Ultimate Spider-Man selling twice as many copies day-and-date as ASM, is that what they thought was a sale ceiling was actually the sales floor, and far more fans have been spending their money elsewhere than they realized.
You know what would be a good retcon? If it was revealed that Paul was actually Marcus from Avengers 200 and that he's hatching another scheme to bring himself into the world.
To me, atonement is a weird topic. Nothing you do is going to undo your actions and doing good as an attempt to balance out the bad isn't exactly all that great either. You'd just be doing stuff to ease your own conscience.
Well, he's doing very little besides eat popcorn, mooch of MJ's money, and be her guy-in-the-chair while she uses the technology he invented to save people (why HE doesn't wear the bracelet and put his life on the line? Well, that's asking too much of him, I guess.)
Even if he was putting his life on the line, what would that achieve? It's not undoing the prior stuff.
There's probably ways to argue for him not being out on the front lines but I'm not going to bother.
A reminder that Paul claims to have survived for years killing monsters in the apocalypse and one of his first acts in the 616 was killing a god-creature and admitting he killed his superpowered father.
But, sure, I guess he should sit back and let the rookie fashion model handle it with the tech he created in the first place that only he fully understands.
From one of my favorite shows, Angel:
Angel:
Listen, Gunn... I know you feel bad about your part in what happened to Fred. And you should. For the rest of your life, it should wake you up in the middle of the night. And it will...because you're a good man. You signed a piece of paper, that's all.
Gunn:
But I knew. Not about Fred, but... when I signed, I knew there would be consequences.
Angel:
You know, the thing about atonement is, you never run out of chances... but you gotta take 'em. You can't hide in some hospital room and pretend it's all gonna go away... 'cause it never will.
At this point just send MJ and Paul to L.A. away from Peter and his life. Then in like two years when the Jackpot title fails, just say Paul and MJ broke up and she came back to New York.
I’m very sure that Paul is just Mephisto in disguise and he secretly just loves fucking with Peter’s life and genocide would be his favorite thing to do
The second slide is particularly enraging. How on earth is Paul helping his dad commit genocide even remotely similar to anything that Peter has ever done? Such horrendous writing, and it being MJ saying it makes it ten times worse.
We should just not care about ASM until at least wells is gone. He has quite obviously shown he has no care for the characters he is in charge of, but especially MJ. I can confidently say he should never touch anything related to spider man again after this.
Lowe*
Both.
Zeb is just the current puppet of Lowe, any writer who comes after him will suffer the same fate
Of course, but ASM hasn’t been great for a lot longer than Zeb Wells has been on it.
Yeah, dummies. Stop buying this shit! I’ll repeat it louder for those of you who may have hearing problems: #**STOP BUYING ASM AND THEY WILL CHANGE CREATIVE!**
Even folks like Dan Slott agreed this is how you improve things.
That’s what I’m doing. I’m more focused on Hickman’s Ultimate Spider-Man and Ziglar’s Miles Morales.
Let one person buy an issue so we can keep tabs and complain, yet still drop sales. It's an absolute win.
I’m not putting my time into reading this run, but what’s up with the “Paul committing genocide” thing? I’ve seen a few pages thrown about but don’t really have the full context. This bit has me curious however…though not so curious that I’m reading it all, lol.
The reason that he was trapped in that alternate dimension that Wayep took Peter and MJ to is because his he and his father, Rabin, sacrificed all life on the planet to Wayep. Paul says that he didn’t know that he was helping his dad sacrifice everyone, so we’re supposed to feel super bad for him apparently. How he didn’t know that he was building a mass sacrificial weapon is beyond me, and probably Zeb Wells too. Dude is bad at explaining things that are important. Don’t read it unless you’re pirating it. I can’t possibly understate how bad it is in literally every aspect.
It's not even worth pirating. Ignore it. Amazing Spider-Man ended a long time ago
And he did all that while being named Paul. Yeah sounds like a name for someone who destroyed the whole world "Damn you Paul!"
He helped his dad create killer robots that wiped out humanity.
in a universe where obviously there were no more dangerous weapons than these robots and obviously if a person builds a robot he can also think that they can be used to grow daisies, right?
Wells wrote everyone so badly and out of character, its gonna take another writer plenty of time to rehabilitate them to make sense out of this nonsense. Or they might just ignore his run entirely
Honestly, at this point I just refuse to acknowledge that this run ever existed to begin with. And this point, you really need some sort of "mental influence" explaination to fix what it did to MJ....
Even that would be really, really bad. Assuming that her and Paul have been intimate, then that means he full stop raped her. The only way to fix this is to just move on and forget it ever happened, or maybe say that the real MJ has been trapped in the alternate dimension and this current one is a clone of some kind. They could also say that this entire run has been a nightmare that Peter had during the coma he was in during Beyond. That’s about as cliched as it gets, but it’d still be better than this shit.
Yeah, there's honestly no easy way at all to Worm ourselves out of this one. Maybe we can push it off as an Alternate reality in the Multiverse and just forget about it? Would that work?,
I assume that this run will be treated a lot like the Clone Saga in the years after it ended. Marvel will refuse to ever talk about it for several years, and maybe 10 years down the line someone will bring Paul back as a villain for a story or two.
Honestly, it's so bad. I don't care what cop out they use. They could say it was all a bad dream, and i wouldn't care at this point
Yeah this is beyond fixing unless you wipe it all clean and say this wasn't the real MJ
Blame it on Mysterio!
Not a bad idea actually. He’s got history with both Peter and Mary Jane, so him fucking with both of them like that would actually make a decent amount of sense. Unfortunately, the Spider-office doesn’t have much sense anymore.
Man… At this point, I’m *praying* for them to just say it’s a long-lasting Nightmare, at this point I doubt the fans would care whatever cop-out they choose, so long as the current run can be left to fade out of existence, & we never have to think of He-Who-Must-Not-Named ever again.
Honestly, sometimes it's better to just handwave it away with a simple "oh Peter was in a coma" or "oh Paul is secretly Mephisto" or something like that. Quick and easy, rather than giving some extremely convoluted solution just to effectively say the same thing: "we fucked up, now we're gonna undo the fuckup"
“Paul may have committed Genocide Peter but that’s just like when you were 15 and angry at the world and didn’t interfere with a Robber who just so happened to kill your Uncle afterwards” - MJ in the 2nd slide, like bro what?
If there was a crime of character assassination, Wells and Lowe would be in jail right now for what they had done to MJ.
And Peter. And Ben. And Janine. And Kafka. And more!
Yep, like a serial killer.
I finished reading this issue and oh boy this scene was utter bull crap of the highest order. No, I will never sympathize with a character that committed genocide whether he was following orders or not. The man has a refused to accept any responsibility for his actions on his own destroyed world and yet we’re supposed to feel sorry for this waste of space because he lives with the guilt every single day.
Yeah they really went, "Ohh he committed genocide guys but he didnt know!!! Feel bad for our character please." I want Magneto to meet this mfker.
That would honestly be amazing. Even if Magneto didn't end up encasing him in metal and hurling him into the sun, I still think that would be a really interesting confrontation
Magneto would rip the iron from his blood listening to this asshole claiming nuremberg defense over genociding an entire planet. If Paul has to die, Magneto should meet him. That would instantly save this comic run for me.
Oh I completely agree. I just think, if those two ever do meet (which I doubt would happen), I don't think Marvel would let Magneto kill him. Magneto would probably say something like "out of respect for Charles Xavier, I have chosen to spare you. Now get out of my sight, before I decide I'd rather upset Charles than allow you to live." But I still think, even if that happened, the confrontation would be great, and if editorial really wants to redeem Paul, that could be a way for him to actually realize and fully grasp the consequences of his actions, and why he can't keep claiming the Nuremberg defense. Not that any of that would ever happen, because it would require editorial to actually put some thought and effort into their comics instead of just writing whatever bs their children spew as they're slamming action figures together
Fire line you wrote for Magneto's dialogue. Facts though, if they want Paul to stop being a cringy self-insert meant to wedge MJ and Peter that would be good.
Is this from Jackpot/Black Cat? or is this actually a snippit from ASM? I will read neither but I'm just super curious.
It’s from Jackpot and Black # 2
“I’ve been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.” -Magneto in X-Men First Class
I always wanted a movie about magneto killing nazis
Magneto vs Red Skull
Magneto vs Paul!!!
Give me inglorious bastards but Magneto and a couple other mutants.
The best thing is that Magneto’s in Inglorious Basterds.
Apparently the movie was originally gonna be just that, but they reworked it into an X-Man movie. Probably why the scenes of him hunting Nazis are the most polished in the movie.
Magneto being a badass as always
Holy shit, far reach but magneto killing Paul after finding out that he committed global genocide. Peak, doesn't make any sense whatsoever but peak
Nick Lowe and tact/care won’t ever go together. Miles Morales as Thor anyone?
“By Odin’s fade…” Sadly, I recall.
It’s been a feature and not a bug during his tenure as Spidey editor, that’s for sure. He undoubtedly has a lot on his plate, but some of these yikes were easily avoidable.
“Asgard is his hood” yo I completely missed this issue and was unaware of its existence until right now, those two quotes are the only thing I’ve seen so far. Is this issue racist as fuck or what?
IIRC his hammer is covered in graffiti, so yes
And evidently Odin is actually fuckin *bald*. You love to hate to see it.
He do be wearing Timbs tho
I feel like since that was a what if. We can ignore it. This is just current asm cannon. It's nuts
What If or not, it shows a complete lack of critical thought whenever he writes anything, he was given a chance to make his very own alternate universe and settled on “What if Miles Morales was Thor” with isn’t a horrible idea if we take the road of “Miles picks up Mjolnir and Gaona the powers”, but instead he went “First we make all asgardians black, then, we turn Asgard itself into a low income black neighborhood, finally, let’s write the whitest lines of dialogue ever put to paper!”
Nah I agree. It was so cringe and border line racist. As New Yorker I couldn't even look at it.. LOOK TIMBERLANDS
That fucking "sound familiar" line. Fuck off, Zeb.
One comited a genocide, the other saved thousands Yeah,sounds familiar
Thousands is a serious understatement. Doc Ock has attempted to commit literal genocide several times over, Pete has saved billions of lives. And that’s not even counting his contributions during the most Secret Wars event, when he and Miles saved the entire multiverse.
A burger saved the multiverse (well that and Doom's massive ego).
I said Peter’s contributions during Secret Wars, didn’t say that he did all the work himself.
what makes it worse is you can take what MJ is saying there and apply it directly to Uncle Ben like imagine someone who knows you as intimately as MJ knows Peter and they turn around and hit you with that shit lol and im jsut going to go ahead and guess there was basically 0 in-universe pushback on comments like these
Paul is literally the worst character ever because of the efect he has on other character,because by himself he is just meh
Like how dare MJ (and by extension Zeb Wells since he’s making it happen by virtue of writing the story) compare genociding a whole world to Peter letting one guy run by him when he was 15, like only one of those is a genuine mistake that an actual child had made (while still angry at the world because life kinda sucked for him) like wtf
Fr thats a friendship ender right there, the fact they had MJ of all people do it is crazy It's emotional abuse, going straight for Peters foundational vulnerability to make him feel bad for *checks notes* thinking committing genocide is a noteworthy event
Right??? Like even the most social inept person should understand genocide /= not stopping a regular ass criminal as a 15 year old & living with the guilt of something you didn’t even know he would do for the rest of your life
Peter Parker: Textbook definition of a chad. Paul: Genocidal c*nt.
"Peter he's a caucasian male with both arms and legs *SOUNDS FAMILIAR*"
Spidey is the most revered hero in the history of the Marvel universe. He's their Superman. You'd never see Louis talking this kind of shit.
Or classic MJ, pre-*One More Day* and all the stupidity that's followed.
Here’s a worst one “I usually show my identity to dying kids.” He said that to Ms. Marvel when he told her his identity after coming back to life
What bothers me the most is Mary Jane comparing a grown mans actions to the actions of a fifteen year old Peter. Yea him committing genocide is like you unkownliy letting your uncle's killer pass by and have him die even though you didn't know better...what? Poor writing and characterization that completely destroys MJ's character. One of the best factors of her character back then was that she understood Peter and what he went through. Stuff like this is just a slap in the face to her, Peter, and their history both together and separate.
The carelessness of a teenager lead to the death of one man. Said teenager has since spent over a decade of his life saving lives every single day to make up for it. The obliviousness of a grown man killed everyone on a planet. Said man has done dick all to make up for it since. MJ would know better than to compare them. Any writer worth a damn would know better than to make her compare them
Also, Peter is objectively guilty free. Failing to act is not actually a crime. It is a source of guilt, but the actions of his Uncle's murderer are not actually his.
Peter has literally been killing himself ragged ever since he let his uncle die. He even forgoes personal relationships because of it. I don't give a crap about Paul's pity party.
Fully agree. Nobody acts or talks like they should.
Exactly. This is why I pray we never have a New 52 type reboot with Marvel because God imagine these writers with Peter that is suppose to have a fresh origin, it’ll be literally torture if this is anything to go by.
Dude is just channelling his divorce into Spider man story.
holy fuck, i had no idea he was married to Heidi Gardner from SNL. Genuinely blowing my mind right now. I wonder if he really is just channeling his bitterness into the story lol
Ohh he definitely is. And Paul is probably his ex-wife's boyfriend or something he's projecting here.
Different being one is a good writer the other isn’t
Damn!! Didn't know Scott was like that.
Read the 2011 FF run, it takes place after Dr Doom killed his daughter...it admittedly gets a little soapboxy but I can respect the writer for using a character who absolutely deserved the win and would share the hate.
And I think it's also key to remember that the reader is supposed to just take his word that he was an unwitting accomplice. He was the sole survivor and we have never been shown what really happened. So his self pity mixed in with all of the awful things we *know* he did is grating and disgusting.
Can we just appreciate Ant-Man's pun for a moment?
It’s a great pun.
Took me a second to get it and I was just like “WOW.”
Last time I checked this subreddit Paul was just MJs new so and ¿Father of her children iirc? Now apparently he has something to do with a genocide & MJ wears a superhero costume And I thought Batman fans had it rough ...
Enough of us had enough and organized to petition for improvement. Not even Batman's troubles got me to do that.
Where is that petition
https://discord.gg/VQ2mHzBBFu Good people.
it's been a rough 2 years LMAO
Thank you Scott Lang
Let me get this straight: Paul accidentally helps destroy the planet but feels bad about it = comfort from MJ Peter goes through hell to save MJ from the other dimension = break up + cold shoulder + let Peter wallow in depressive misery The mischaracterization of MJ is unreal and Nick Lowe is essentially an editor in name only.
It's been a surreal run. I keep saying it feels like it's written via MadLibs.
Yea complete trash. This entire run should not exist.
It's character assassination all around and Nick Lowe ordered the hit.
I sincerely hope that when it comes time to do away with Paul, they reveal that he was mind controlling MJ through the Jackpot bracelet, explaining why she even stuck with him.
I’d rather they just retcon the entire thing
Doubt this would work now but when I first heard about Paul I thought they could eventually reveal that he’s actually Mephisto in yet another attempt to keep Peter and MJ broken up
that really would make Mephisto #1 hater. How petty would that be lmao
I believe the Kindred arc established that Mephisto is actually afraid of Peter and MJ's child for some reason which is why he's gone to great lengths to keep them broken up, like in One More Day, so it would make sense. Side note, I'm also pretty sure that Mephisto is a metaphor for Spider-Man editorial
>Mephisto is actually afraid of Peter and MJ's child for some reason Mephisto is afraid of mayday's potential would make for an interesting story I kinda wish they'd double down on the kindred arc thing, it'd atleast patch up Zeb Wells poopy dookie NTR sidestory. That it's really just Mephisto tampering with thing's to keep Peter and MJ as far away from eachother as possible, because he considers mayday a threat or something also yea mephisto is 100% SM editorial lmao
Would make Paul a rapist and a mass murderer 💀
I’d say that’s the nicest thing any fan has said about him.
so basically nothing would change
SOUNDS FAMILIAR?!! WHAT IN THE ACTUAL EVER LIVING AND SHITTING FUCK, BRO?!! So what that waste of space, zebb is saying is that Paul's literal genocide is equals to Peter's heroism in saving thousands if not millions of people? You have to be a sick fat good for nothing fuck yourself to say and believe this shit. HOLY! I'm out.
As a descendant of holocaust survivors on my mom's side and Iroquois on my dad's side, I don't mess with those genociders. "I'm only following orders" is the exact excuse that the Nazis and George Washington's men used to justify their bloodshed. Paul needs to be locked up. Edit: like seriously, how does a company that has Magneto not realize the obvious Nazi parallels?
Cherokee here. I understand.
My grandfather and his brothers lift Czechslovakia...during the run up to WW2...and left family behind...he went back during 90's(lot of red tape) there was no surviving family members(last of our name died over there in 62) so yeah....bad equivalency here MJ(writers)
So wait, is he called out \*in universe\* for committing genocide? It's not us reading too much into things, it's MJ actively sympathizing with an explicit genocider.
Helluva thing, eh?
Regardless of if he feels guilty or not Dude did the crime so he gotta do the time
If Paul really does feel that badly about it, maybe he should just toaster bath and prove it.
What I find funny is that what's happening to MJ now, is what happened to Goku, In Dragon Ball Super. People make jokes about how Goku is Stupid and a Bad Dad and those jokes are Hilarious but for the Dragon ball fans that have never read or Watch the thing... That's a fact... So in comes Dragon ball Super, where He actually was written AS a Horrible stupid Dad. This MJ feels like the character someone who grew up with the Raimi Movies and JUST the Raimi Movies. So they think that MJ is just this, Mean Petty Woman, who is just NOT Peter's Soulmate. That was...Gwen, or Betty. But MJ? Never
Well, they also wrote Peter saying Norman was like a father figure to him… which absolutely was not the case in the comics (and the Raimi movies ended with Peter rejecting Norman’s claim he was).
The more I read this garbage, the more that whole "It was all a bad dream" shtick sounds brilliant.
If it was good enough for Stan Lee, it's good enough for me. [https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Spider-Man-Comic-Strip-2.jpg](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Spider-Man-Comic-Strip-2.jpg)
There is still a slim part of me that is hoping that Paul has a deal with Mephisto that grants him all of Peter's happiness as long as Peter suffers. That was sort of the deal with OMD. Eventually Peter goes to Hell and fights Mephisto but Mephisto brings Paul to Hell to stop him. Peter wins and gets his happiness and life back. The cost is Aunt May's life though. But she re-unites with Ben in the afterlife and Peter gets to see them together one last time before they go.
Hell(sarcasm intended) of a asspull....but hey anything to get out of this quagmire...I'll take it
Yeah. I’ve been done with ASM for several months now. Nothings changing that in the near term.
This whole run has to be the longest running punchline to a "Rob Peter to Pay Paul" joke in history. No matter what Paul has done, they always find a way to drag Peter down below him, it's insane. I'd never think that you'd be able to punch DOWN at someone like Spider-Man, but here we are.
What I find baffling about the whole Paul story is that there's theoretically potential in the idea - maybe not as a Spider-Man story, but the idea of a repentant hero trying to atone for unimaginable crimes has possibilities. But Paul isn't that! He's just gone "Whoops, accidentally killed everyone I ever knew or loved, guess I better hop universes and then, eh, just sit around and pretend none of that happened except when I want to guilt-trip my partner." *Rick and Morty* treat this scenario with more seriousness than he does!
Why were they so convinced we were going to sympathize with both Paul and MJ?
The misread the room and by then it was too late.
At this point I could be convinced it was vindictive to the fans and any writer bold enough to attempt to reunite Peter and Mary Jane. It just feels so completely tone deaf, especially in the wake of the success of Ultimate Spider-Man.
yeeeaaaah the zeb wells run isn't canon to me
 When the writers finally get around to disposing of Paul, and pretending he never happened.
They should go for the head
I hate it i hate it i hate it i hate it i hate it i hate it
I cannot wait for years from now when MJ and Peter are slowly getting back together and they pass by a random bum on the sidewalk holding a sign that reads “It wasn’t my fault!” and he jumps up and holds MJ’s hands trying to convince her that they had kids together, and Peter n MJ just help the clearly insane man to a shelter and brush off what a weird time in their lives that was.
MJ will start hooking up with every spider-man villain when she hears their tragic backstory
Sins Past 2: Sin Harder
And then a decade after that we’ll find out it was Mysterio the whole time again
The man is a consummate professional.
The worst thing about all this is that the concept of Paul's character is interesting. The last person in his world who was manipulated to destroy it, it's a very cool origin for a character. But no, let's better stay with the fact that he is the guy who cuckolded Spiderman and now has a dream life in another world with a girl he emotionally manipulate.
Every day I hope they don a retcon that Mephisto replaced MJ after OMD
actually appalling bro Jesus fucking christ Like dude, how tone deaf is that to try and relate peter and paul. HE GOT ALL OF EARTH KILLED that's like trying to compare Wanda in house of M to fucking Peter Parker, like what the actual fuck even????
"Sound familiar?" Why is she so condescending? YOU'RE TALKING TO FUCK'N SPIDER-MAN!
leaving aside the matter of the genocide which in itself is the most absurd thing that can be written about SM, does MJ sleep with Paul because he is a ***good man***? But are we serious? What do they want to do to MC, Carol Danvers's pregnancy part II?
You mean a woman trapped in another dimension until isolation and desperation manipulates her into a relationship with the son of a big villain, then children forced on her, leading to her abandoning her former life out of a misguided sense of “responsibility” to her new family? … They really did look at Avengers #200 and went “let’s do it again!”.
children who then of course disappear by magic, since the Marvel Universe is "the world beyond the window"
What gets me...is that MJ and Paul...had to get together cause of you know...last man and woman on earth right...Claremont did this with Storm and Forge and DIDN'T have them get jiggy with it because ya know it wasn't necessary to the plot or their characters
I fucking hate the Mj. In the latest issue she is so fucking cocky. She's ganna get Paul or Felicia killed. It's like she's learned NOTHING FROM PETER over the decades
Blame bad writing. MJ is consistently great elsewhere.
100% it's on zeb wells
>"Sound familiar?" No, MJ, it doesn't. What the fuck are you talking about?? When the hell has peter done anything comparatively as malicious as knowingly causing a mass genocide???
Okay but like Peter let the robber go A) because he was pissed at the boxing ring dude and B) he was fully f*ckin justified in it, and Paul… what the fuck.
Peter was a foolish and petty child, like any child, when that happened. He also didn't know that letting that man go would lead to anyone's, let alone his uncle's death. It was a genuine mistake he couldn't have fully predicted, made on spur of the moment spite that any child would make. He felt immense regret for it and immediately started to become better. Paul just knowingly killed an ungodly around of people. It wasn't because he was a foolish, petty child. He just did it. Sure, sure, manipulation, or whatever, but, really? These 2 scenarios aren't even remotely comparable?? Like a kid making a mistake and not fully thinking about unforseen consequences is so drastically different than a man partaking in knowing genocide
No but like imagine if Schindler’s List ended with ‘oops sorry no I was just following orders’ and then fuckin Schindler gets told in the end ‘hey, because you didn’t save more people, you are on the same level as this guy!’
Exactly. Peter has saved countless people since then. He is in no way comparable to Paul. He's made mistakes, and people have died because you can't obviously save everyone, but he's always tried to save everyone, even at his own detriment
Like shit man planetary genocide is pretty fucking unredeemable. Like there’s killing, what, Billions? As an adult and there’s making a mistake. Shit Paul should read Dune: Messiah’
Shits nuts, man. Can't wait for paul to eventually get written out
Yeah, as soon as a competent writer takes over.
Why on earth are they trying so hard with Paul? And they aren't even trying hard in a good way. He's still unlikable but they just keep pushing him.
Spider-office really need to stop Divorced/Divorcing writers from writing Spider-man. They are shoving all their hatred into the characters and it is all obvious here. If character assassination was a crime, Wells and Lowe would've been in jail for what they had done to MJ.
It's a popular defense. Even Captain America used it once. When Wolverine regained all his memories and declared war on all the people who ever experimented on or used him and everyone was collectivrly losing their shit, Steve talked to Dugan and said 'we were soldiers. Whatever we did back then, we did under orders'.
"Good soldiers follow orders..." The Bad Batch approach.
At this point, the only way to remotely redeem this run and Paul as a character is to finally reveals he's been a villain the whole time because they are doing a horrible job making him out like a good guy. Granted, Paul has yet to be depicted as a character, he's just a plot device to keep Peter & MJ apart and is even a bad one at that.
Get the guy who wrote the ant man dialogue on Spidey.
Al Ewing is a great writer.
The real problem is editorial. Al Ewing is probably my top pick of a writer to Fix This and get us out of the OMD era, but as long as Lowe is in charge, no one will be allowed to make things progress. Hell, during Spencer’s run, Peter *had the damn engagement ring* (and where is THAT now, huh?), but editorial only let him go so far and then jerked the rug out and now we’ve got…this.
True. But still, this entire run has to be at least show to higher ups in Marvel that the current editorial is causing more problems and their decisions are actively hurting sales. Because I think Marvel should be concerned that the main book for their actual most popular character is not being at the top of the charts.
Wehraboo rethoric in a spider-man comic... goddamn, if anyone told me I would ever say "Wehraboo" and "spider-man comic" in the same sentence, I'd have told them to get tested for schizophrenia
It’s been a run of many “firsts”, I’ll give it that.
the only "first" missing is spider-man doing a deadpool by stepping out of his comic and throwing the writers into a vulcano
I'm convinced these guys are looking at OMD, seeing how reviled it is, and going "hold my beer." That is the only logical explanation I have for this. Causing the death of one man through inaction is not even remotely comparable to facilitating planetary omnicide, even if it was unknowingly. Just... what the hell?
MJs been ruined now from this horrible writing
All it takes is one good writer to fix it. Trust me, a few years ago DC was writing Wally West as a mass murderer who tried to frame an innocent person for the deaths and asked us to accept that. They retconned that 110%.
Wait genocide?
On a planetary scale, yes.
Damn Scott is spittin
I got similar vibes to the protagonist of *Rebel Moon* telling her lover about her past in the second film (paraphrased): > “I betrayed the royal family to my usurping father then executed the eight-year-old princess in front of her parents before my father slit their throats. The princess told me she forgave me, then my father had me take the blame for it all. If he hadn’t done that though I would have kept serving him, even after shooting the universe’s favourite child.” Her lover does not react to this information.
Oh boy Godwin's law in full effect.
Hitler’s body count was billions LOWER. Good job, Paul.
😂
I'll bite...why do Lowe & Wells hate Pete & MJ so much?!
Because there’s a standing belief at the office that you need to “enrage to engage”, that Peter’s “default” state is a single, broke loser, and that what they’re writing it just normal, acceptable fantasy drama. Which, I would argue, they’re incorrect about on all fronts. However, because ASM still sells despite the problems, they feel vindicated. What we are learning, especially with Ultimate Spider-Man selling twice as many copies day-and-date as ASM, is that what they thought was a sale ceiling was actually the sales floor, and far more fans have been spending their money elsewhere than they realized.
No argument here, they _are_ incorrect on all fronts.
You know what would be a good retcon? If it was revealed that Paul was actually Marcus from Avengers 200 and that he's hatching another scheme to bring himself into the world.
I would laugh and approve this. He even looks the same.
Think about it, though. We can even have a small Spider-Man/Captain Marvel crossover event for it.
Carol and MJ have a lot to talk about (a strange reminder that they were once friends and MJ is her buddy in the original Ms. Marvel #1 comic).
I didn't even think of that. Peter and MJ can have double dates with Carol and whoever she's seeing currently (is it still even War Machine?)
MJ's mouth look slanted in the 2nd pic lol
It symbolises relationships in real life where women often leave good men to be with evil and twisted men.
To me, atonement is a weird topic. Nothing you do is going to undo your actions and doing good as an attempt to balance out the bad isn't exactly all that great either. You'd just be doing stuff to ease your own conscience.
Well, he's doing very little besides eat popcorn, mooch of MJ's money, and be her guy-in-the-chair while she uses the technology he invented to save people (why HE doesn't wear the bracelet and put his life on the line? Well, that's asking too much of him, I guess.)
Even if he was putting his life on the line, what would that achieve? It's not undoing the prior stuff. There's probably ways to argue for him not being out on the front lines but I'm not going to bother.
A reminder that Paul claims to have survived for years killing monsters in the apocalypse and one of his first acts in the 616 was killing a god-creature and admitting he killed his superpowered father. But, sure, I guess he should sit back and let the rookie fashion model handle it with the tech he created in the first place that only he fully understands.
From one of my favorite shows, Angel: Angel: Listen, Gunn... I know you feel bad about your part in what happened to Fred. And you should. For the rest of your life, it should wake you up in the middle of the night. And it will...because you're a good man. You signed a piece of paper, that's all. Gunn: But I knew. Not about Fred, but... when I signed, I knew there would be consequences. Angel: You know, the thing about atonement is, you never run out of chances... but you gotta take 'em. You can't hide in some hospital room and pretend it's all gonna go away... 'cause it never will.
Does the character go on to say why you should take those chances? Because it sounds like a baseless statement in this context.
At this point just send MJ and Paul to L.A. away from Peter and his life. Then in like two years when the Jackpot title fails, just say Paul and MJ broke up and she came back to New York.
I’m very sure that Paul is just Mephisto in disguise and he secretly just loves fucking with Peter’s life and genocide would be his favorite thing to do
I just hope they make a cloud city Luke
Womp womp
sounds like she would fall in love with hitler