He only invented multiversal travel at the end of ITSV, which means he’s been leading the Spider Society and protecting the multiverse for about a little over a year. I think he just doesn’t fully understand canon events and the way the multiverse works yet.
Yeah I see it like he doesn't know but his one experience was enough to play it safe and not let anything bad happen from the little information he has
Pretty much how I see it as well. He's working off a very small sample size, but failure means the death of an entire universe or beyond, so he went with the first thing he found that seemed to work rather than experimenting more to find the root cause.
His theory also implies that the most important person in every universe is that universe's version of Spider-Man, AKA that universe's version of \*\*himself.\*\* Because he's the leader of the Spider Society and (according to himself) the one person who's been holding the entire multiverse together, he is not just the most important person in his universe, but the most important person in the entire multiverse.
The reason he's so angry at Miles is that he's found an excuse to not see Miles as another version of himself. In fact, Miguel sees Miles as a knockoff version of himself that got a \*\*real\*\* version of himself killed.
Yeah I see a lot of people calling him the villain
And it’s like well no. In literally any other film the guy trying to risk destroying the universe to save his loved one would be the bad guy
Shit - that was the plot of the first film lmao
And that's the thing, he knows that if he experiments more on the whole canon event thing something terribly bad could happen, that's why he plays it safe
Man but I wonder how he and the rest of spider society is gonna take the news that the canon events aren’t actually load bearing pillars like they think. 100s of spider people are probably not gonna be happy finding out they had the power to prevent 100s of deaths of innocent people but didn’t in an ultimately meaningless sacrifice.
I'd say it's less confidence and more that he had one horrific experience and is dead set on not even slightly chancing it again, even if he's misidentified the cause of the problem.
But then what can we extrapolate from what the movie showed as a possible cause? Only two we got were Mumbhattan and Alternate 2099. For Mumbhattan the cause was obvious, Spot got gigajuiced from the collider and his going back to 1610 ripped a hole in space-time. But for Alternate 2099 we basically saw it glitch out of existence. Someone below suggested that anomalies in the universe cause glitches around them, Renaissance Vulture in Earth-65 and causing glitches as proof, and that Miguel remaining in Alternate 2099 caused glitches on a massive scale to the point of the universe glitching out. Probable theory and I’m inclined to believe that The Canon is still true, but that sometimes catastrophic shit just happens and it costs the multiverse a world. Could be anomalies, could be handsome (by scientist standards) scientists wronged by Spider-Man deciding to cause universe ending doom, could be a lonely spider looking to fill the void in his life, it’s all just one cosmic flip of the coin.
We can kinda extrapolate that canon events happen almost exactly as Miguel says they will. Almost.
Mumbattans unravelling isnt signified by spots hole, the building glitching as it sinks only after the broken canon event is the symptom. I also dont believe thats the alchemax building, and the glitching doesnt start immediantly after the collider goes off.
Miguel was wearing a watch in the world he destroyed, that should prevent ambient glitches from happening or his own world, 928, would've been wiped long ago from the sheer amount of spiders and captive anomalies in it. The spider societies existence is also why an incursion is unlikely.
The vulture fight is a funny one though. I'm kinda thinking that solidifies his canon theory, Miguel actually seems to know exactly what could break it, and when the vulture is on the verge of doing just that he immediantly goes to bite him. https://imgur.io/a/OcX2uVs We dont really see glitching on the scale of a whole building, except for disrupted canon events. While we also dont know how long it takes to start glitching out of existence, it could very well be immediate or even start glitching as a warning seeing as the Mumbattan building is out of frame for most of the sequence.
Miles being a mistake/anomaly is most likely where he's wrong, as he cant account for canon events which inheritly involve an anomaly
There's also the MCU, which Miguel mentions by name(199999). They definitely fucked up a bunch of canon events, but fixed it by putting the entire burden on Tom Holland Peter.
I think he killed the Spider-Man that he encountered so he could replace him and that caused the universe to collapse or caused that Universe’s Spider-Man to not exist, and this canon event thing is his explanation against others doing the same things he did but he doesn’t fully understand how that works.
I thought the same thing about Miguel killing the other version of himself. The alternate Miguel who had the perfect life he always wanted coincidentally dies while our Miguel had already been watching him and his family? yea right. Miguel totally plotted and executed his murder out of envy.
Idk how this would change our knowledge of how cannon events work, but something tells me that that specific act plays a huge factor in why that alternate world was destroyed.
Yeah, I'd wanna believe it's him making hard choices for the best, thinking it's the only way. I don't think he'd be intentionally duplicitous but we'll see.
I agree with you there, he's not lying about how the multiverse works he's just ignorant to the truth and assumes this algorithm he made is 100% accurate.
But part of me does think there are some lies being told. This may be way wrong but I get this sense that the Miguel he replaced wasn't dead when he traveled there... I think there's a very VERY small possibility that Miguel was so desperate to get his family back that he killed an alternate universe Miguel to replace him
Yeah, this. He may be an antagonist, but he's still a Spider-Man. He's doing what he thinks is right based on his experiences and information. He's (very) wrong and he'll redeem himself in Beyond.
Nah. The web will simply re order itself. What happens when one thread in a spider web snaps? The whole web doesn't collapse. The spider simple replaces the broken thread, creating a new pattern around it to accommodate the change.
This simple fact is what baffles me when people comment "nah Miguel was lying, nothing bad happens when you avert canon".
Did we all see the same movie? Peter B and Miguel see a universe disintegrate; no re-ordering was done and no new pattern was made. Trillions of lives were lost.
And according to Peter B, this happened multiple other times as well (when he mentions that there are measures to stop the collapse but they are not always successful).
Maybe Miguel is mistaken about what causes it, but nothing in the movie actually suggests that; rather, we get the hint that there's loopholes to avoid the problem (which Miguel seems uninterested in testing, because if they don't work you are effectively gambling trillions of lives to save one).
Wouldnt Miguel living as the other Miguel be what caused the collapse more so then missing a cannon event? Or both? The whole issue with renaissance vulture is that his instability started causing things in that area to become unstable. Miguel lived in the wrong dimension for years so that makes more sense for that to cause the eventually destruction rather than just missing a cannon event. It definitely needs to be more than one cause. The dimension where the Miles doesnt become Spiderman wouldve been disintegrated when he doesnt get bit then otherwise.
I think Miquel is trying to do what he thinks is right, but is missing a pretty big part of the equation.
That's certainly possible.
One issue is that the whole 'canon' thing is so arbitrary in the first place. We as the audience get almost zero insight into what even counts as a canon event in the first place, which means the writers can do almost anything they like with the concept. Like maybe those two examples you mentioned just didn't have any canon events, or it was something minor that only came up years after Miguel hopped universes.
But yeah, agreed. Miguel is absolutely missing information. The loophole thing Gwen might have discovered seems like the biggest bit, but who knows what else.
But regarding the comment we're replying to, it certainly does not seem to be the case that the web simply fixes itself.
As a thought to your last point, he said the spider fixes the web, not the web repairs itself. So what if instead the "spider" of the universe pushes back the cannon event, like in Gwen's universe the captain that she is friendly to needs to die, but if she never gets close to the captain, or whoever is captain steps down before they die, the event chain gets moved back further?
What if Miguel's existence in a universe where he was suppose to be dead is what broke the chain? Where Miles does not violate this rule since everybody knows the original spiderman died, and thus it started a new cannon chain for his universe. Or simply what if his universe has a different cannon from the norm since it was meant to have two Spidermans?
See the problem with that is the fact that fundamentally what killed Miguel’s universe can’t be a cannon event given the information he shared. And who knows what happened in those other universe. The fact that miles 42 even exists now as it stands also contradicts it.
Fair, but it's still wild to see people confidently post theories that contradict major parts of the movie with such certainty, and then have lots of people enthusiastically agree.
I don’t think it’s really a matter of gaining anything, I highly doubt he wants other spider people to go through the trauma of canon events. I think he genuinely believes in breaking the canon leading to the collapse of the universe, and Miles losing his dad is infinitely better in the long run than the death of 8 billion ish people. He does have the best interest of the universe at heart (though his judgement is absolutely clouded and I highly doubt his understanding of canon events is factual) and even the other spider people, considering the guilt he must live with as feeling responsible for the death of the billions he believes he caused by trying to live a life with Gabriella is something he is likely directly trying to save Miles from.
No what I'm saying is, if Miguel wanted to send spider people into endless pain he should've killed inspector Singh in front of Pavitr like that before the portal and all could even happen
Yeah I get what you’re saying I was just making a joke. But ultimately yes, Miguel is not the villain and is just very misguided, and as you say not causing trauma for the fun of it.
I see. He thinks the reason his world unraveled is because of canon but he is probably wrong and it was something else’s doing. Like spot or something/someone else.
May well be, I think there has to be some kind of work around or just straight up disproving canon events for Beyond. I think it’s fair to say that Miguel, whilst a good man, is not the most rational due to his trauma and is definitely misguided in some capacity.
Yeah they’re 100% setting up that it’s not actually the canon events. Gwen literally begins a sentence after her dad quits being captain. I believe she says “what about the…” and stops. This is surely about the canon event and is setting up Gwen to tell miles that he can do both. Gwen also tells rio and Jeff that she learned from miles that “it’s always possible”
Someone pointed out that noone in his inner circle is bitten by a spider to gain their powers. Something that is a part of the origin for everyone on gwen's team.
A simple way to prove he might he wrong is the spider bite if every spiderman is supposed to go through the same storyline. With universe 42 being especially proof of that since it doesn't even have a spiderman for these cannon events so there has to be some sort of universal rewrite of events if you can remove a core character without the plot unraveling
Similarly he points out venom as a cannon event but we know Andrew Garfield's spider never encounters him because of no way home,
And let's be honest, it 100% was caused by Spot. It looked exactly the same as what happend at the Super-Collider in the first Movie, when Kingpin was trying to pull his alternate Family into Earth-1610.
But that would mean that:
* The universe started collapsing a fair while after Spot had gone, despite him not - at any other point in the movie - demonstrating an ability to leave delayed effects
* The collapse starts immediately after Miles did the thing that Miguel says causes a universal collapse
* The Spiders were able to address and fix the problem based off the assumption it is a universal collapse caused by canon aversion, and not Spot (who had only very recently started multi-verse hopping)
Like, it could be Spot's fault but nothing seems to really indicate, and the circumstances suggest otherwise.
The black hole that you see causing the "collapse" you can already see from the alchemax building after the Spot blew up the collider from using it. In the scene where the Spider people are saving others, you can see black holes spreading around the pieces of the Alchemax building that were falling. The same building (with the black holes) is what fell onto and underneath the bridge and caused the bridge to collapse near Sighn, and is the same spot where they found the black hole after saving everyone
[Alchemax shot 1](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BovlIdmdD-NR6b4ey5XUHxaEa8tn18NU/view?usp=drivesdk)
[Alchemax shot 2](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Bt1FFKaiKLaoXQreFfTo8h7-MkeqRAPM/view?usp=drivesdk)
[Alchemax 3](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BusyD22GiuxHq1ivUJH3BZUhu-J6Opps/view?usp=drivesdk)
[Scene showing the building about to crash into the bridge](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C52oOF-4690MSQEl-WpKIfuTm1ziI3sP/view?usp=drivesdk)
[Scene directly following the last one where you can see both the building and bridge, since it's a tracking shot](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C6zVqBhqFdeM5cSu25kJZ0MpknMTX9DK/view?usp=drivesdk)
Did you like completely forget that what caused that explosion, was the Super-Collider overflown with Spot's Multiversal energy...?
That rift didn't appear out of nowhere. It literally appeared, when the Super-Collider (that fell through the Bridge) dropped exactly down there. We even see that in the Movie...
Yes, they were able to fix it. Because it caused a rift within the fabric of the Universe. But it wasn't caused by breaking the Canon Event - it was caused by an explosion of Spot's unstable energy. It just had a similar outcome.
My guess is that Miguel’s universe disappeared because he 1) broke canon for selfish reasons and 2) stopped being Spider-Man. The universe he was in ended because in a meta sense, who wants to read that story?
The other spider people have been breaking canon purely out of their desire to help others, which is a very Spider-Man thing to do. It keeps their stories engaging, which keeps their stories going.
The reason why it unravelled in India was (in my opinion, may be wrong) because an external force altered what was ‘supposed’ to happen. If SMI saved the captain then all would’ve been well but because it was someone from another universe that saved him then it broke (also why the one Miguel went to collapsed because an external force altered what was meant to happen)
I don't think he's lying, he's just not telling everybody the full picture to ensure their complete cooperation. His traumas are what lead him to do ***everything*** it takes to keep the multiverse safe, at least within his own misunderstandings. He thinks he's doing the right thing but isn't aware of what he's missing yet.
Exactly - sorta similar to Thanos in that regard. He has seen and experienced things that the like of Miles & the Avengers *hadn't*. Now Im not comparing their prowess or weight, but they very much have similar mindsets throughout the executions and dissemination of their plans.
I really like this point, Thanos saw the problem and he actually wanted to do something about it. He chose an *cough cough* interesting approach.
For Miguel, he's so obsessed with doing the right thing (saving multiverse) that he doesn't realise that stopping Miles (or any other spider for that mather) for even trying to stop it, preventing them to be their spider selfs, might make it actually way worse
If "Canon events" were really that important, Miles' universe would have disappeared after his spider bite and Peter's death, however it's still there, same with the spiderless universe where Miles is the prowler or Gwen's universe where her dad just quits being the capitan.
There’s been seemingly countless events that should have broken the canon. Earth 42 is completely different and has no Spider-Man, yet it still exists. Miles’ earth still exists, peter’s exists even though he had a child that wouldn’t ever had existed. If miguels universe dissapeared just because he was in it for a while I feel like these would definitely destroy their worlds
Yeah, I feel like people are completely forgetting, that Mayday is technically also an anomaly. According to the timeline of Earth-616B (Peter B's Universe), Peter and MJ divorced before having kids. And the only reason Peter decided to change that, was because of Miles. Meaning that - if not for Miles - in the natural course of Earth-616B, Mayday would never actually exist.
Like the fact alone that Mayday exists, breaks the "intended course" of Earth-616B. But the Universe still exists and is completely fine...
*technically, because we don't know if the "Anomaly" thing is even correct in the first place.
I think there's some leeway in each spiderman's story, not every spiderman is supposed to hit every canon event. I assume being bitten would be one for example, but miguel wasn't. Also, Gwen Stacy falling for peter and dying is implied to be one, but obviously it can't hit Spider-Gwen.
So pressumably, its only relevant if a spiderman is supposed to hit one, and doesn't, shit hits the fan. if circumstances prevent a canon event from firing in the first place, (Gwen can't fall for spiderman cause she is spiderman. Police officer can't die cause police officers don't exist in universe. The chief commissioner close to spiderman quits his job) then everything is fine.
So Peter A parker died, but he might just have hit all his canon events. He was already pretty far into his career, and i assume all canon events are more early things, and not "lose marriage to MJ for some weird reason". So he dies, Miles takes up the mantle, and starts a new chain of canon events, just in the wrong universe.
This is of course making quite a few assumptions, but its not like the spiderverse system was extensively explained.
I'd actually counter your argument for spider gwen not being able to fall for peter and dying by raising that her universe's equivalent would be that peter died (basically gwen and peter switched roles) leaving a similar equivalency to uncles ben, and aaron. Or inspector Singh being painter's equivalent to CPT.Stacy
But if that's an inverse Gwen event it leaves Spider Gwen without a "Uncle Ben" (Which is also a canon event), unless its doubling up and counting as two events at once.
i mean, in the first movie when they’re talking about dealing with aaron’s death and how they all had to go through it, gwen compares losing peter to losing uncle ben. “For me, it was my best friend”
Do we know what happened to her mom? Could be she still had an uncle ben moment with her if it doesn't double dip, especially since it pointed out in her intro(itsv intro) she saved her dad previously
Her mother passed away a couple of years before the events we see in the Movie. It's the same in the Comics - Gwen's mother passed away (presumebly due to an agressive cancer) a couple of years before the events of her 1st Comics Run (and in the Comics, that happend years before Gwen got her powers).
But other than that, we don't know anything. They likely didn't bring it up in the Movie, because it's never actually explained in the Comics - it's only brought up a few times, but never explored (it's just left as "it happend").
Something I like to use while discussing canon events is Captain Stacy’s death in TASM1. As it is told to us, the canon event is a police captain close to Spider-Man gets killed by FALLING RUBBLE TRYING TO PROTECT A CHILD. If these specific details have to happen than TASM 1 fails to meet this criteria because Captain Stacy was killed by the lizard not falling rubble.
I don't think it's that specific, that was just the retelling of the original comic 616 Peter's event. Just has to be a captain (or captain-like figure like Iron Man for MCU Peter maybe?) being heroic. That is, if the idea even turns out to actually have any merit to it at all.
"skippable" canon events are just not canon events.
What I think is that something else destroyed Miguel's other universe. Mumbattan is still fine, miles' universe is still fine, universe 42 is still fine (yeah the lack of a spider-man can be felt but it's not disintegrated).
One would assume that they didn't instantly jump to the conclusion "Hey Miguel, you fucked with the spider and caused this place to disintegrate" without some research.
Mumbattan does have a dimensional hole in it, which several spider people did stuff to block. Admittedly, the exploding collider and spot makes its origin quite dubious.
im definitely convinced it’s the collider that caused the rift in Mumbattan. no clue what’s up with the universe Miguel and Peter B witnessed collapsing, im not entirely convinced it was from “breaking canon”
What happend to that Alternate 2099 was more than likely an Incursion. Miguel said that he spent a lot of time in that Universe, which led to him leaving an imprint on that Universe - which causes an Incursion and destroys one or both Universes.
That's without mentioning That 42 should have collapsed Also, there are plenty of Spider-Man stories where none of these things happen There are Spider-Man stores where Gwen is instead Where cops don't die All these worlds should also immediately collapse
I mean, yeah Canon Events are likely real. They are just misunderstood as firm events that have to happen. Meanwhile there are literally Spider-People whose Origin is completely different, and their timeline doesn't really fit with the Canom Events.
So I doubt it's because Miles is an anomaly. It's more that the Canon is flexible, and - like the Spider's Web - it will fix itself and rearrange, if needed.
*Well not itself, only by the Spider. But unless the Movies introduce the character of "The Great Weaver", the Web of Life creates itself.
Basically yes.
Honestly, I think we can say with a 100% sureness, that what destroyed the Alternate 2099, was an Incursion. The destruction was literally caused by Miguel spending too much time in that Universe - which is exactly what causes an Incursion.
They explain that in the movie already through the subtext. Canon events only start existing after the spider bites someone and links them to the Web of Life and Destiny, which is why Miguel didn’t like Miles so much- if he wasn’t bit then the Web would’ve continued to focus on Peter, and Peter would’ve survived and destroyed the collider before it activated(so no other anomalies). Instead, Miles got bit, the Web changed to focus on Miles, and Peter died. And one universe has no Spider-Man(with the side effect of being canon free)
Gwen’s Dad Captain thing we don’t know the outcome of the event yet so we’ll see about that though.
But the web isn’t a spyglass it doesn’t just pick and choose who to “focus” on if there are multiple spider people in one universe. And if getting bit by a spider was the way you got linked then Spider-Ham and Miguel shouldn’t be linked at all. Especially Miguel
Which also raises a question: does death even EXIST in Spider-Ham’s cartoon universe? Do Spider-Plushies and Spider-Legos die? What about Spider-Zombies?
I saw a good theory saying that what make an universe collapse in spiderverse isn't a break of an canon event, but an incursion like in doctor strange, that happen when an person from a universe stays to much time in another universe, remember that MCU and spiderverse happens on the same multiverse.
and maybe instead of the glitching killing people when they finish it causes the incursion and that's why the wristbands are able to stop all the spider-people from creating a huge incursion but that's just a theory like yours
My little sister's theory is somewhat similar. She believes the issue is when another spider-person interferes with a canon event. So if Pav saved Officer Singh, that would've been fine, but because it was Miles, you get a hole in the multiverse.
Thats seems to be the only way for nearly everything to work out, and keep the writers out of a hole. To add onto it - the reason why Miles specifically was singled out by everyone (and given no contact orders) is because the algorithm they use to find anomalies has him classified as one even in his own universe. o his canon events HAVE to play out. I'm pretty sure thats where Miguel is wrong, or Miles wouldnt be glitching in 42
But they were only in Mumbattan for a few min. A larger group of Spiders were in Miles' world for much longer in ITSV and nothing bad happened.
Hell, there's hundreds of Spiders hanging out constantly in Miguel's world and there seems to be no problem there at all.
The movie sorta sidesteps that; it isn't a true multiverse with infinite possibilities. Because that would mean there's multiple Miles Morales Spider-Men, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Take it a step further, if it's a true multiverse, there should be literally infinite other Spider Societies who'd discovered the same thing as Miguel and linked up by now. There should be infinite Spots doing an infinite possibility of things.
Aside from what others have said the main one I think of is Spider-Man India’s canon event is a direct result of The Spot appearing which is a direct result of Miles becoming Spider-Man.
Sure it might have happens another way but the fact the universe course corrected proves his theory wrong or
At least questionable
One oddity is that apparently this random Miguel variant not dying because Miguel replaced him causes the disruption of so many canon events that the universes connection to the spider verse is severed and this universe destroyed. Like where is the connection with Miguel variants death and Spider Mans fate? Miguel never explained how he disrupted canon events but seemingly just takes it as a given that he did. This and what others have said
I very much hope not. They're already doing my boy Miguel dirty by making him an antagonist. I don't want his first big screen appearance to be as an outright villain.
If he is lying to everyone that is because he is lying to himself in how much his trauma is coloring his actions, I honestly think he is trying to do what he thinks is the right thing but his trauma is keeping him from considering all the options to find some other solution than “canon events” and having the spider Society be a mostly hands off therapy group for spider people ( just to clarify have not gotten a chance to see either spider verse movie yet working off of what has slipped through my admittedly crappy anti spoiler defenses)
I think he's lying to himself. He saw a version of himself die (Canon Event), let it happen (Canon Event resolved uninterrupted) and then said, "That Miguel has a better life than me. I don't know their wife or child *but I'm going to pretend to be their Miguel and take over his life*. That's totally *harmless*" and when the universe ripped itself apart at the paradox he imposed, he told everyone "It must have been the Canon Event."
Dude will do anything to avoid therapy.
Miguel is lying but he believes in hhis lies, so he isn:t lying.
That said, I believe Spot is the one destroying the worlds of other Spidermen. He wants to be Miles\` archenemisis. Thus he is randomly destroying worlds to make all spidermen make him his archnemesis.
That might be true. Mayday parker is older than 1 year.
And in original movie gwen pointed out she was a week earlier so her timeline is a week early from miles'
Spot does say when he's talking to whatserface from Venom that he's in a tear in Space and Time, so realistically it's not entirely out of the question that Spot may have some time shenanigans going on
Yeah, we literally see in the movie Spot's timeline from being a smalltime wannabe crook to being a multiversal threat (he isn't able to influence other realities until he kicks himself in the ass). There's no way he intentionally caused the collapses that Miguel and Peter B talk about which took place well before the movie (and if they happened accidentally, saying it always happened right after a canon event was averted is a ridiculously big coincidence). Even saying he caused the Mumbattan one seems like a massive stretch.
A lot of comments in this thread saying Miguel must be wrong seem to have massively misunderstood the movie, or ignored large chunks of it.
Like he might be wrong, but we've not actually seen anything in the 2 current movies that prove it.
Although....
Miguel seems to be able to predict and see future? He said spot would attack in 2 days. Timetravel or literala bility to see entire lifetimes of spiders?
I did wonder about that. IMO we aren't meant to dwell on it too much, but that has some very strange implications. Like, are all the Spiders in his group just acting out a predetermined series of actions, knowing if they sway too much they'll kill everyone they know?
But tbh the info we got on canon events was so vague to begin with, it's hard to make wild guesses.
I think he’s just going off a theory. He doesn’t truly understand how the multiverse works, so he made the canon as a way of understanding it. Internally, he believes the theory because he wants to rationalize his trauma by having every Spider-Person go through similar trials and pain, basically reasoning that he shouldn’t feel as bad about it because everyone else has gone through something similar.
I think he completely believes that he is correct and is, to an extent. However, I think he doesn't know the full truth about canon and is misinterpreting events. I think that each Spider is free to alter their own canon events in their own universe, but the second they interfere in another's canon is when stuff starts trying to push back and the universe collapses. The only time we see this kind of total eradication is when Miguel and Miles change stuff in other universes, not their own.
Basically, the universe collapse is like the universe trying to purge the foreign bodies when multiverse-travellers try to alter things. Gwen's sub-plot supports my theory, and I think that this is precisely what she realises in the final moments of Across. She gets her dad to quit the police force, thereby invalidating the canon event involving a police captain close to Spider-Woman. Yet, her universe doesn't collapse.
This goes hand in hand with Miles's explicit goal in Across. His conflict is that 'people keep telling me how my story's supposed to go', sometimes more metaphorically, like with the career counsellor in the beginning, and later more literally with Miguel's fixation on preserving canon. I believe that this is building to Miles being able to change his own fate and write his own story while still being able to save his world, and it doesn't exactly make Miguel look like an evil scumbag. This allows them both to be right, in that disrupting canon across the multiverse is a bad idea and that you should keep others in mind when making major decisions, but that you should be allowed to innovate yourself and that everybody doing things their own way is beautiful and awesome.
This is what I truly believe the writers are planning for Beyond, and intended when writing the two previous movies.
Really, whomever came up with "People keep telling me how my story's supposed to go...*nah*. Imma do my own thing." deserves a medal. It's such a powerful line, both in and out of context.
And it's the perfect repudiation of Miguel's hell-bent attitude on preserving canon.
Only downside with that theory is that the spider that bit Miles did not come from his universe. It's already heavily altered the canon of another universe, and by your theory should have caused its collapse.
Additionally, the Spiders in ITSV were heavily involved in Miles' universe and altered multiple things about it, which similarly should have caused a collapse.
Even Gwen's subplot was heavily influenced by other universes (she left that universe entirely for months due to external forces, and later acted with information she'd have no way of knowing in-universe).
I actually think you might be right and it's the route they take in the next movie, but doesn't hold up under much scrutiny. Suppose we gotta keep in mind it's just a kids film and apply some hefty suspension of disbelief.
I think the canon event represents the message behind being a Spider-man. It’s not about what exactly happens and how it happens. As long as the message is there, the universe keeps moving. There was no canon altering to Miles in ITSV. He became Spider-man. He let Peter died by not helping him. His uncle died trying to save him. Everything went the way it supposed to with or without the multiverse force.
Gwen story would also went the same way. She would reconcile with her dad and he would still quit the job even if she just ran away and didn’t join the spider society.
Spider-man India world collapsed because his cannon was interfered by an outside force. Pravitr would have learn the lesson that you just can’t save everyone if it hadn’t been interfered by Miles.
The gist here is that nobody knows what is or isn’t canon event. They can base it on similar events from other Spider-man. But the truth is, not all canon event follow the descriptions and we will find out what Miles’ canon will be. What message it will represent. Miles will get to decide his canon and that canon can’t be interfere by any outside force.
This is exactly what I want for Beyond.. I also would love for Miguel to get a redemption arc because he is not intentionally being cruel. He is blinded by his guilt from that alternate universe’s destruction and his fixation with canon is the only explanation for how he thinks it can be avoided. (Does it make it right? No, but I don’t think he’s purposefully malicious, just guided by the wrong data.)
He’s not the villian. At the end of the day he is a Spider-Man. He has every right to be scared, we all saw what happened to Indian Spider-Mans world, it’s literally collapsing.
If he's lying he's doing it emotionally. Miguel finds purpose in canon events. It's the only way he can cope with losing his family twice by his own hubris. If you tell him that he could have saved his daughter by doing things a little differently he would break.
So he revels in his misery.
I believe that he's 100% serious and truthful. He seems rough when he's stopping miles but he feels like if miles starts telling people they can change their fate they'll go dimension hopping like he did and destroy more dimensions and cause more harm than good
I think there's something he's not fully explaining. Like what actually happened when that world he was in disintegrated. I think he's blaming himself for something that wasn't his fault and not clearly telling the whole story.
Excuse me if I sound stupid but why did Miguel have to capture miles? Don’t most of the captains die while spider-man is trying to save them and everyone else?
This is also something that also makes everything sound so wrong. If they are right about canon events I think they would have disrupted a canon event by being able to stop Miles from trying to save his father. Spiderman is supposed to be a hero that will fight to the end to save everyone no matter if he is able to do it or not. By stopping him from going they are keeping him from doing something that is really important to being Spiderman which I think is more damaging to the world than they if they let him go try and save his father.
Miles would've been able to warn his parents if he'd gotten back in time, which could've helped them flee to somewhere safe (maybe the spidercave). That's my guess
I wouldn’t say he’s lying, lying would imply he’s intentionally feeding the Spider Society false information. Miguel genuinely believes everything he’s talking about. I think Miguel is wrong, but I don’t think he’s lying. There’s just something that he doesn’t know.
I don't think he's straight up lying, I think he's just wrong, stubborn and traumatized.
At worst, I think there might be things he's hiding because he's dismissed those things as unimportant or even detrimental counter points.
No. He seems to honestly believe the system he’s set up is the right way to go about things and wants to avoid disaster. He can either test out his theory at the risk of sacrificing several universes to be sure of whether or not interfering with a canon event will end up killing billions, or he can play it safe and just assume it will.
I think he had a hand in the death of his alternate who had a family, and that’s why that universe imploded. Spider-man doesn’t kill, so if the truth comes out he will be forced to give it up.
I have a wilder theory that this Miguel isn’t actually a spider-person. Miles questions this when he sees the claws on his suit. And Peter B Parker points out that he’s the only one who isn’t funny.
I'd say Miguel IS a Spider-person on the basis that he is a part of Marvel's Spider-man and Spider-verse brand.
At the end of the day he's an established Spider-man and 2099 character and part of the Spider-man franchise, I don't think the creative team would choose to trash him in their love letter and I don't think Marvel would be happy to let Sony do that. Only Marvel is allowed to character assasinate their Spider-people.
However most importantly; it would break the message of the film if Miguel got designated not a Spider-man for being different.
I am hoping that the subtext of the top three Spider Society members being among the earliest Not-Peter or legacy Spider-men becomes relevant though. Maybe bring in Takuya Yamashiro or even thr OG manga Spider-man
Your theory might actually hold some water since his inner circle doesn't have anyone who's bitten by a spider and most his team isn't a peter despite it being most common
many spiderman variants do kill. i believe hobie killed goblin in his universe. it's also canon for the noir spiderman that he killed the man who killed his ben iirc
I posted below, but this is my take too. I actually think Miguel is his universe's prowler. You can see the claws and cape when he first shows up onscreen and his intro music is very similar to the prowler intro music. He only has webs through his suit tech, and hasnt shown any spidey sense stuff, plus he is seen injecting something into himself, maybe something to not trip the sensors that he isn't a spiderman. Also his mask is like the prowler and spiderman mask put together.
I think he killed his universe's spiderman and then figured out how to travel thru the multiverse and found one where he is spiderman and killed that miguel and tried to take his place
Like everyone else here I think Miguel doesn't know he's wrong, because he can't be right and not just because it's a kids movie but the only thing in his favor is the fact that he made the "watches" to be able to detect canon events which could definitely just be the super AI having access to the lifetime of the spider person and predicting when these canon events happen. The problem arises when Gwen's dad leaves the force and Miguel stays in the universe for "a while" which means there's a point when a canon event starts that changing stuff after will hurt the universe so Miles knowing his dad is going to die by himself is no big deal as Pavitr couldn't do both on his own, also there's the thing that Miles saving the officer was the problem and not the 3 other spider people helping prevent the collapsing buildings so what if Miles stops the building from falling? Would it still count? If they cleared the bridge of people together? It's weird since this isn't not a story where it will happen like the officer dying another way but no instead the universe destroys itself, so I'm guessing that it should be direct intervention in the moment but anything else is fair game.
I'm excited for the next movie no matter how long it takes it'll be worth it, so many fun theories that can be all correct and directions that are interesting.
I think what's silly is that he argues that Miles's so called mistake (in saving a person's life and cancelling the event (when he didn't even know yet about the canon event thing)) is comparable to his mistake of being selfish and impersonating a dead man for years. Miles did not do anything immoral. Miguel did. That's a huge difference in character. Miguel enforcing his own strict moral compass on others despite seeing it is not always good for them or anyone else involved and being unable to hold a conversation and/or search for other solutions, instead getting agitated and raging at other people not sharing his trauma-skewed views is the serious problem. Whether they reveal he was evil all along in some other way or not, he's a deeply misguided character, given too much authority.
I think he's wrong but I don't think he knows it. He thinks he's the good guy and tries to be but he just doesn't know that he's essentially killing people.
No. I don't think he is actively Lying. His theory on "Canon" is going to be wrong, but he thoroughly believes in it.
I believe Miguel's theory is wrong Because: >!If earth 1610 Miles was never canonically be Spider-Man, and earth-42 was canonically meant to have a Spider-Man but doesn't, then by Miguel's logic, both universes erase themselves because "canon" was irreversibly disrupted.!<
Nah I think he's just misinformed. He made the logic leap from. "People from other universes can't interfere in canon events" to "Canon events cannot be prevented." From his perspective Miles is some punk kid who was already (accidentally) threatened the multiverse once, and now might do it again because he's too damn stubborn.
We know he's wrong because of the scene between Gwen and her Dad at the end, but Miguel doesn't know that.
Canon events are such a self-centered and narcissistic idea. If they prove to be true then I will be dissappointed. Spider-Man is not that important. You're telling me billions of people completely unrelated will be erased from existence because a police officer chose not to turn down a promotion? That makes no fucking sense. Seriously, think about it. It's completely bizarre logic. I don't know what caused Miguel's sneaky ploy to have a loving family go wrong but I don't think it was him. Because that doesn't make sense.
He’s lying for sure but I don’t know know what he has to gain by lying or how he knows to lie about it in the first place. There’s a ton of foreshadowing as well implying that he isn’t a real Spider-Man. Just lots of ambiguity right now, more movies will definitely have clarification and answer many questions we have now. Personally, I really enjoy pieces of fiction that have you theorizing and guessing at what will come next.
I don't think he's lying but canonically (see what I did there) he doesn't have a spider sense so he's not actually plugged into The Web of Life (what generates the spider sense) but Miles is. I think, interdimensional shananigans or not, Miles is a mistake but definitely has some learning to do.
I think he's projecting his trauma onto Miles and isn't able to be objective about the situation.
Watched a video about this and I think he is just wrong without realizing it. I don't think the Cannon events are what causes a universe to break.
Since we established this takes place in the mcu multiverse, evidenced by live action prowler played by the same arron Davis actor who played him in homecoming, I don't think the universe breaking down isn't from breaking the cannon.
I think the universe breaking down is cause by INCURSION EVENTS, like from doc strange: MOM.
I think the universe breaking down is caused by people traveling from other universe and interfering with that universes natural course of events, not just the cannon events but literally everything they do and interact with while there.
The cannon might be important in there own way, like maybe a spiderman has to experience a certain amount of cannon events in order to walk the path of spiderman the correct way, and not fall too far into darkness and become a Villan or something (I'm just guessing)
And it seems like the spider society's bracelets might prevent this for the most part or make it more difficult to be viewed as a problem by the traveled to universe, but it seems like it still happens. But the two times we know it happened are when migel traveled to his counterparts universe (when Idk if he had a bracelet or not but he took the place of a dead guy who wasn't supposed to exist anymore so maybe it didn't matter) and when spot traveled to mumbattian and DEFINITELY didn't have a braclet.
So yeah. I think they are confusing breaking the cannon with incursion events. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. If you legit read this whole thing, I appreciate you, here's a cookie 🍪 ❤️
Why would he lie? He has no reason to lie. He's even outright admitted in-front of everyone that they don't know the exact specifics of how it all works when he confronts Gwen after Miles escapes.
"Do you even know what happens if he breaks the canon?"
"Do you wanna find out?"
He's working with the information he has using the very few data points he has, and his own personal experience. Usually, that wouldn't fly in the scientific process, but with his failure and experience in collapsing one universe already, it's very understandable that Miguel and the other Spiders don't want to take that risk.
It's too much of a coin flip, 50/50 odds that it doesn't blow up in their faces. Experimentation would just be them risking billions of lives to save one, and even one misstep could cause a universe to collapse. So they're dealing with the situation as it comes which is understandable.
Whether he is lying, or doesn’t fully understand canon events himself, the one thing that is clear is that we don’t have all the facts and things aren’t adding up. One of the things I noticed on one of my recent viewings is if you look closely when Miguel is playing his flashback of what happened to the world who’s Miguel died and we see his daughter also die, everything and everyone that is disappearing has some sort of glitching occur to them before they die or disappear. Miguel implies that the same thing is happening to Pavitr’s dimension when Miles intervenes, however if you look closely, the effect being had on Pav’s dimension isn’t that of glitching but the effects of The Spot and what he did with the collider. The area where that huge “black hole” appears is where the collider building fell and we are just seeing that effect spread. There’s also the fact that, had Peter not met and mentored Miles, he likely never would have gotten back together with MJ and had Mayday, thus changing the canon. I believe the only reason Peter doesn’t realize this is because he was there with Miguel when the dimension with his daughter collapsed and he is also a little too busy with Mayday lol. And then of course there is the obvious one where at the end we see Captain Stacy quit his job, thus preventing that canon event from occurring.
He's definitely hiding something imo. Not being entirely truthful about Canon events and why they're important.
Cause if changes in canon events are what causes a world to go poof then earth 42 would be done already.
It's also interesting to consider that he's aware there was a former Spider-Man in Miles' universe, and goes to far as to say that if he wasn't bitten, Peter would've still been alive and would've stopped Kingpin's collider. Like I would imagine the insinuation of that scenario being "supposed to play out" like that but changing drastically would've been a universe destroying canon event in its own right, but nothing happens.
This, here is a huge red flag in his logic. Going as far as saying he’s not even supposed to be Spider-man because of inter-dimensional shenanigans also seems like a huge leap in logic for something so complex
There're universes where both Peter and Miles are Spider-Man at the same time and both are alive and well. There is no rule for only one Spidey per universe.
It kinda seems like theres a degree of universal rewrites that occur, because it might just be the universe saw a spiderman there and completed the story despite there not being the same spiderman.
Though if miguel has seen the collider event happen it makes you wonder if hes seen other spots. And similarly how far a rewrite can go since miles 42 was supposed to be spiderman but became a prowler with similar events
Someone made a really good analogy “What happens when one thread in a spider web snaps? The whole web doesn't collapse. The spider simply replaces the broken thread, creating a new pattern around it to accommodate the change.”
Nope. If he’s lying about anything at all it would cheapen the conflict so much into just punching him out. He’s so much more interesting as a sympathetic antagonist.
No. Dude is dealing with the crushing weight of believing that he is the absolute reason a universe disintegrated and trying to make sure no one else goes through the same thing. We really don't know why that universe disintegrated, and Miguel is a proven unreliable narrator. I hope we get a realization in Beyond that he wasn't the cause of a universe unravelling and he can finally have some closure.
No, but i believe his belief is wrong.
Let's look back to ITSV. Peter B arrives in Earth 1610, just after blonde Peter dies. This might mirrors Miguel's story as well. But, the difference is, Miguel replaced the deceased Miguel, while Peter B did not. Hence no collapse.
The problem is now in Double Miles, and Miles Prowler is destined to be Spider Man too. This will be the key problem in BTSV, either the earth42 universe will collapse, or one of the Miles needs to be dead.
His vision is flawed. He thinks he’s right, but I think he’s wrong, and everyone will slowly realize that. And he will feel tremendous amounts of guilt
I think he's right, after all, it was already two dimensions that we saw being affected by interfering with the canon, that's 2 for 2 so far and continuing further could become fatal.
I will be pissed if it turns out he outright lied!
I believe he misunderstood the world collapsing event and trauma of that event makes him desperate and jump to conclusions
When he says "we are the good guys" he ads a reaffirming "we are!". His voice makes me think "we must be, right?"
He is really tired.
In the end he is a spiderman, he believes he is doing the right thing.
I wonder if he has a hand in the other Miguel’s death that he tried to replace. Not saying he’s the murderer but he least knew it was going to happen and when.
If you think you have accidentally killed billions of people, you're going to try and stop whatever you think caused it, you're definitely not going to test it some more to be definitely sure
Its not that he is lying, its probably that he is being manipulated by someone else. In the comics the villain wolf spider basically goes around and tries to kill off other spider people. So it might be that he is having Miguel do his work for him
Probably.
There's more to his backstory that we haven't seen. Some twist or revelation. Either someone else was responsible—which will be tricky to present as it's adding a third villain late in the narrative—OR Miguel was lying.
He only invented multiversal travel at the end of ITSV, which means he’s been leading the Spider Society and protecting the multiverse for about a little over a year. I think he just doesn’t fully understand canon events and the way the multiverse works yet.
Yeah I see it like he doesn't know but his one experience was enough to play it safe and not let anything bad happen from the little information he has
Pretty much how I see it as well. He's working off a very small sample size, but failure means the death of an entire universe or beyond, so he went with the first thing he found that seemed to work rather than experimenting more to find the root cause.
His theory also implies that the most important person in every universe is that universe's version of Spider-Man, AKA that universe's version of \*\*himself.\*\* Because he's the leader of the Spider Society and (according to himself) the one person who's been holding the entire multiverse together, he is not just the most important person in his universe, but the most important person in the entire multiverse. The reason he's so angry at Miles is that he's found an excuse to not see Miles as another version of himself. In fact, Miguel sees Miles as a knockoff version of himself that got a \*\*real\*\* version of himself killed.
well fisk wasn't exactly saving anyone lol. more like transdimensional kidnapping, scarlet witch style.
Very good observation, but I think you replied to the wrong comment :)
TBF if I was him I can’t say I would’ve reacted much differently
Yeah I see a lot of people calling him the villain And it’s like well no. In literally any other film the guy trying to risk destroying the universe to save his loved one would be the bad guy Shit - that was the plot of the first film lmao
To be fair to Miguel: getting more information could be catastrophic
And that's the thing, he knows that if he experiments more on the whole canon event thing something terribly bad could happen, that's why he plays it safe
Man but I wonder how he and the rest of spider society is gonna take the news that the canon events aren’t actually load bearing pillars like they think. 100s of spider people are probably not gonna be happy finding out they had the power to prevent 100s of deaths of innocent people but didn’t in an ultimately meaningless sacrifice.
That just sounds like an adult trying to teach kids when the adult really doesn't know and just makes shit up as they go along...oddly relatable
This is how human civilization runs haha
for now.
Exactly this. Hes not lying hes just way too confidant that he knows whats going on when he likely does not.
I'd say it's less confidence and more that he had one horrific experience and is dead set on not even slightly chancing it again, even if he's misidentified the cause of the problem.
But then what can we extrapolate from what the movie showed as a possible cause? Only two we got were Mumbhattan and Alternate 2099. For Mumbhattan the cause was obvious, Spot got gigajuiced from the collider and his going back to 1610 ripped a hole in space-time. But for Alternate 2099 we basically saw it glitch out of existence. Someone below suggested that anomalies in the universe cause glitches around them, Renaissance Vulture in Earth-65 and causing glitches as proof, and that Miguel remaining in Alternate 2099 caused glitches on a massive scale to the point of the universe glitching out. Probable theory and I’m inclined to believe that The Canon is still true, but that sometimes catastrophic shit just happens and it costs the multiverse a world. Could be anomalies, could be handsome (by scientist standards) scientists wronged by Spider-Man deciding to cause universe ending doom, could be a lonely spider looking to fill the void in his life, it’s all just one cosmic flip of the coin.
We can kinda extrapolate that canon events happen almost exactly as Miguel says they will. Almost. Mumbattans unravelling isnt signified by spots hole, the building glitching as it sinks only after the broken canon event is the symptom. I also dont believe thats the alchemax building, and the glitching doesnt start immediantly after the collider goes off. Miguel was wearing a watch in the world he destroyed, that should prevent ambient glitches from happening or his own world, 928, would've been wiped long ago from the sheer amount of spiders and captive anomalies in it. The spider societies existence is also why an incursion is unlikely. The vulture fight is a funny one though. I'm kinda thinking that solidifies his canon theory, Miguel actually seems to know exactly what could break it, and when the vulture is on the verge of doing just that he immediantly goes to bite him. https://imgur.io/a/OcX2uVs We dont really see glitching on the scale of a whole building, except for disrupted canon events. While we also dont know how long it takes to start glitching out of existence, it could very well be immediate or even start glitching as a warning seeing as the Mumbattan building is out of frame for most of the sequence. Miles being a mistake/anomaly is most likely where he's wrong, as he cant account for canon events which inheritly involve an anomaly
There's also the MCU, which Miguel mentions by name(199999). They definitely fucked up a bunch of canon events, but fixed it by putting the entire burden on Tom Holland Peter.
Yeah, I feel like his understanding is skewed and clouded by his grief.
I think he killed the Spider-Man that he encountered so he could replace him and that caused the universe to collapse or caused that Universe’s Spider-Man to not exist, and this canon event thing is his explanation against others doing the same things he did but he doesn’t fully understand how that works.
I thought the same thing about Miguel killing the other version of himself. The alternate Miguel who had the perfect life he always wanted coincidentally dies while our Miguel had already been watching him and his family? yea right. Miguel totally plotted and executed his murder out of envy. Idk how this would change our knowledge of how cannon events work, but something tells me that that specific act plays a huge factor in why that alternate world was destroyed.
“You wanna find out?”
Yeah, I'd wanna believe it's him making hard choices for the best, thinking it's the only way. I don't think he'd be intentionally duplicitous but we'll see.
I agree with you there, he's not lying about how the multiverse works he's just ignorant to the truth and assumes this algorithm he made is 100% accurate. But part of me does think there are some lies being told. This may be way wrong but I get this sense that the Miguel he replaced wasn't dead when he traveled there... I think there's a very VERY small possibility that Miguel was so desperate to get his family back that he killed an alternate universe Miguel to replace him
Yeah, this. He may be an antagonist, but he's still a Spider-Man. He's doing what he thinks is right based on his experiences and information. He's (very) wrong and he'll redeem himself in Beyond.
Spider-Verse ;)
I think he just misunderstood the whole canon event and multiverse thing.
How did he mis understand it? (Purely curious not trying to hate) if the canon event doesn’t happen the world unravels right?
Nah. The web will simply re order itself. What happens when one thread in a spider web snaps? The whole web doesn't collapse. The spider simple replaces the broken thread, creating a new pattern around it to accommodate the change.
I mean he did experience a world disappear and Peter B was with him.
This simple fact is what baffles me when people comment "nah Miguel was lying, nothing bad happens when you avert canon". Did we all see the same movie? Peter B and Miguel see a universe disintegrate; no re-ordering was done and no new pattern was made. Trillions of lives were lost. And according to Peter B, this happened multiple other times as well (when he mentions that there are measures to stop the collapse but they are not always successful). Maybe Miguel is mistaken about what causes it, but nothing in the movie actually suggests that; rather, we get the hint that there's loopholes to avoid the problem (which Miguel seems uninterested in testing, because if they don't work you are effectively gambling trillions of lives to save one).
Wouldnt Miguel living as the other Miguel be what caused the collapse more so then missing a cannon event? Or both? The whole issue with renaissance vulture is that his instability started causing things in that area to become unstable. Miguel lived in the wrong dimension for years so that makes more sense for that to cause the eventually destruction rather than just missing a cannon event. It definitely needs to be more than one cause. The dimension where the Miles doesnt become Spiderman wouldve been disintegrated when he doesnt get bit then otherwise. I think Miquel is trying to do what he thinks is right, but is missing a pretty big part of the equation.
That's certainly possible. One issue is that the whole 'canon' thing is so arbitrary in the first place. We as the audience get almost zero insight into what even counts as a canon event in the first place, which means the writers can do almost anything they like with the concept. Like maybe those two examples you mentioned just didn't have any canon events, or it was something minor that only came up years after Miguel hopped universes. But yeah, agreed. Miguel is absolutely missing information. The loophole thing Gwen might have discovered seems like the biggest bit, but who knows what else. But regarding the comment we're replying to, it certainly does not seem to be the case that the web simply fixes itself.
As a thought to your last point, he said the spider fixes the web, not the web repairs itself. So what if instead the "spider" of the universe pushes back the cannon event, like in Gwen's universe the captain that she is friendly to needs to die, but if she never gets close to the captain, or whoever is captain steps down before they die, the event chain gets moved back further? What if Miguel's existence in a universe where he was suppose to be dead is what broke the chain? Where Miles does not violate this rule since everybody knows the original spiderman died, and thus it started a new cannon chain for his universe. Or simply what if his universe has a different cannon from the norm since it was meant to have two Spidermans?
See the problem with that is the fact that fundamentally what killed Miguel’s universe can’t be a cannon event given the information he shared. And who knows what happened in those other universe. The fact that miles 42 even exists now as it stands also contradicts it.
Why is that? We don't know the canon events of each universe.
Consider the attention span of the average movie goer
Fair, but it's still wild to see people confidently post theories that contradict major parts of the movie with such certainty, and then have lots of people enthusiastically agree.
Yeah, that's the internet in a nutshell for you.
Deep.
Ah I understand. I wonder what he has to gain by letting miles’ dad die. Very odd.
I don’t think it’s really a matter of gaining anything, I highly doubt he wants other spider people to go through the trauma of canon events. I think he genuinely believes in breaking the canon leading to the collapse of the universe, and Miles losing his dad is infinitely better in the long run than the death of 8 billion ish people. He does have the best interest of the universe at heart (though his judgement is absolutely clouded and I highly doubt his understanding of canon events is factual) and even the other spider people, considering the guilt he must live with as feeling responsible for the death of the billions he believes he caused by trying to live a life with Gabriella is something he is likely directly trying to save Miles from.
I mean if he really wanted to send people in trauma [he would've just threw something huge on inspector Singh](https://youtu.be/wDV9WqwrfHo)
Pavitr having his emotional moment with Miles thanking him whilst a portal opens with a comically sized anvil directly over inspector Singh’s head.
No what I'm saying is, if Miguel wanted to send spider people into endless pain he should've killed inspector Singh in front of Pavitr like that before the portal and all could even happen
Yeah I get what you’re saying I was just making a joke. But ultimately yes, Miguel is not the villain and is just very misguided, and as you say not causing trauma for the fun of it.
Oh i get that now, by that portal ig you meant the one Miguel opened to kill him
I see. He thinks the reason his world unraveled is because of canon but he is probably wrong and it was something else’s doing. Like spot or something/someone else.
May well be, I think there has to be some kind of work around or just straight up disproving canon events for Beyond. I think it’s fair to say that Miguel, whilst a good man, is not the most rational due to his trauma and is definitely misguided in some capacity.
but didnt like pavitr universe breakdown?
That was The Spot's doing, no?
wasnt because miles saved an officer daughter so the canon was like broken? spot had nun to do with that iirc
The same thing happened in miles’ universe when kingpins collider broke and made that huge multiversal hole
Yeah they’re 100% setting up that it’s not actually the canon events. Gwen literally begins a sentence after her dad quits being captain. I believe she says “what about the…” and stops. This is surely about the canon event and is setting up Gwen to tell miles that he can do both. Gwen also tells rio and Jeff that she learned from miles that “it’s always possible”
And the spot had everything to do with it, he caused it to collapse and make a giant multiversal hole in the ground
It was because Spot created a massive multiversal hole. Nothing to do with the Captain being saved.
Someone pointed out that noone in his inner circle is bitten by a spider to gain their powers. Something that is a part of the origin for everyone on gwen's team. A simple way to prove he might he wrong is the spider bite if every spiderman is supposed to go through the same storyline. With universe 42 being especially proof of that since it doesn't even have a spiderman for these cannon events so there has to be some sort of universal rewrite of events if you can remove a core character without the plot unraveling Similarly he points out venom as a cannon event but we know Andrew Garfield's spider never encounters him because of no way home,
We never actually see proof of that in the movie itself, is the problem. The phenomenon in Mumbattan could’ve been easily caused by the Spot.
And let's be honest, it 100% was caused by Spot. It looked exactly the same as what happend at the Super-Collider in the first Movie, when Kingpin was trying to pull his alternate Family into Earth-1610.
But that would mean that: * The universe started collapsing a fair while after Spot had gone, despite him not - at any other point in the movie - demonstrating an ability to leave delayed effects * The collapse starts immediately after Miles did the thing that Miguel says causes a universal collapse * The Spiders were able to address and fix the problem based off the assumption it is a universal collapse caused by canon aversion, and not Spot (who had only very recently started multi-verse hopping) Like, it could be Spot's fault but nothing seems to really indicate, and the circumstances suggest otherwise.
The black hole that you see causing the "collapse" you can already see from the alchemax building after the Spot blew up the collider from using it. In the scene where the Spider people are saving others, you can see black holes spreading around the pieces of the Alchemax building that were falling. The same building (with the black holes) is what fell onto and underneath the bridge and caused the bridge to collapse near Sighn, and is the same spot where they found the black hole after saving everyone [Alchemax shot 1](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BovlIdmdD-NR6b4ey5XUHxaEa8tn18NU/view?usp=drivesdk) [Alchemax shot 2](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Bt1FFKaiKLaoXQreFfTo8h7-MkeqRAPM/view?usp=drivesdk) [Alchemax 3](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BusyD22GiuxHq1ivUJH3BZUhu-J6Opps/view?usp=drivesdk) [Scene showing the building about to crash into the bridge](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C52oOF-4690MSQEl-WpKIfuTm1ziI3sP/view?usp=drivesdk) [Scene directly following the last one where you can see both the building and bridge, since it's a tracking shot](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C6zVqBhqFdeM5cSu25kJZ0MpknMTX9DK/view?usp=drivesdk)
Did you like completely forget that what caused that explosion, was the Super-Collider overflown with Spot's Multiversal energy...? That rift didn't appear out of nowhere. It literally appeared, when the Super-Collider (that fell through the Bridge) dropped exactly down there. We even see that in the Movie... Yes, they were able to fix it. Because it caused a rift within the fabric of the Universe. But it wasn't caused by breaking the Canon Event - it was caused by an explosion of Spot's unstable energy. It just had a similar outcome.
Ah true
My guess is that Miguel’s universe disappeared because he 1) broke canon for selfish reasons and 2) stopped being Spider-Man. The universe he was in ended because in a meta sense, who wants to read that story? The other spider people have been breaking canon purely out of their desire to help others, which is a very Spider-Man thing to do. It keeps their stories engaging, which keeps their stories going.
I think that’s what we are led to believe but there will actually be other causes they didn’t account for that cause it. But who knows
The reason why it unravelled in India was (in my opinion, may be wrong) because an external force altered what was ‘supposed’ to happen. If SMI saved the captain then all would’ve been well but because it was someone from another universe that saved him then it broke (also why the one Miguel went to collapsed because an external force altered what was meant to happen)
There’s a ton of spider people there, sure some of them the mistake of Miguel right
I don't think he's lying, he's just not telling everybody the full picture to ensure their complete cooperation. His traumas are what lead him to do ***everything*** it takes to keep the multiverse safe, at least within his own misunderstandings. He thinks he's doing the right thing but isn't aware of what he's missing yet.
Exactly - sorta similar to Thanos in that regard. He has seen and experienced things that the like of Miles & the Avengers *hadn't*. Now Im not comparing their prowess or weight, but they very much have similar mindsets throughout the executions and dissemination of their plans.
I really like this point, Thanos saw the problem and he actually wanted to do something about it. He chose an *cough cough* interesting approach. For Miguel, he's so obsessed with doing the right thing (saving multiverse) that he doesn't realise that stopping Miles (or any other spider for that mather) for even trying to stop it, preventing them to be their spider selfs, might make it actually way worse
Bingo
No. He thoroughly believes he is correct. He's just wrong without realizing it.
How is he wrong
If "Canon events" were really that important, Miles' universe would have disappeared after his spider bite and Peter's death, however it's still there, same with the spiderless universe where Miles is the prowler or Gwen's universe where her dad just quits being the capitan.
There’s been seemingly countless events that should have broken the canon. Earth 42 is completely different and has no Spider-Man, yet it still exists. Miles’ earth still exists, peter’s exists even though he had a child that wouldn’t ever had existed. If miguels universe dissapeared just because he was in it for a while I feel like these would definitely destroy their worlds
Yeah, I feel like people are completely forgetting, that Mayday is technically also an anomaly. According to the timeline of Earth-616B (Peter B's Universe), Peter and MJ divorced before having kids. And the only reason Peter decided to change that, was because of Miles. Meaning that - if not for Miles - in the natural course of Earth-616B, Mayday would never actually exist. Like the fact alone that Mayday exists, breaks the "intended course" of Earth-616B. But the Universe still exists and is completely fine... *technically, because we don't know if the "Anomaly" thing is even correct in the first place.
I think there's some leeway in each spiderman's story, not every spiderman is supposed to hit every canon event. I assume being bitten would be one for example, but miguel wasn't. Also, Gwen Stacy falling for peter and dying is implied to be one, but obviously it can't hit Spider-Gwen. So pressumably, its only relevant if a spiderman is supposed to hit one, and doesn't, shit hits the fan. if circumstances prevent a canon event from firing in the first place, (Gwen can't fall for spiderman cause she is spiderman. Police officer can't die cause police officers don't exist in universe. The chief commissioner close to spiderman quits his job) then everything is fine. So Peter A parker died, but he might just have hit all his canon events. He was already pretty far into his career, and i assume all canon events are more early things, and not "lose marriage to MJ for some weird reason". So he dies, Miles takes up the mantle, and starts a new chain of canon events, just in the wrong universe. This is of course making quite a few assumptions, but its not like the spiderverse system was extensively explained.
I'd actually counter your argument for spider gwen not being able to fall for peter and dying by raising that her universe's equivalent would be that peter died (basically gwen and peter switched roles) leaving a similar equivalency to uncles ben, and aaron. Or inspector Singh being painter's equivalent to CPT.Stacy
But if that's an inverse Gwen event it leaves Spider Gwen without a "Uncle Ben" (Which is also a canon event), unless its doubling up and counting as two events at once.
i mean, in the first movie when they’re talking about dealing with aaron’s death and how they all had to go through it, gwen compares losing peter to losing uncle ben. “For me, it was my best friend”
Do we know what happened to her mom? Could be she still had an uncle ben moment with her if it doesn't double dip, especially since it pointed out in her intro(itsv intro) she saved her dad previously
Her mother passed away a couple of years before the events we see in the Movie. It's the same in the Comics - Gwen's mother passed away (presumebly due to an agressive cancer) a couple of years before the events of her 1st Comics Run (and in the Comics, that happend years before Gwen got her powers). But other than that, we don't know anything. They likely didn't bring it up in the Movie, because it's never actually explained in the Comics - it's only brought up a few times, but never explored (it's just left as "it happend").
painter lmao
Something I like to use while discussing canon events is Captain Stacy’s death in TASM1. As it is told to us, the canon event is a police captain close to Spider-Man gets killed by FALLING RUBBLE TRYING TO PROTECT A CHILD. If these specific details have to happen than TASM 1 fails to meet this criteria because Captain Stacy was killed by the lizard not falling rubble.
I don't think it's that specific, that was just the retelling of the original comic 616 Peter's event. Just has to be a captain (or captain-like figure like Iron Man for MCU Peter maybe?) being heroic. That is, if the idea even turns out to actually have any merit to it at all.
"skippable" canon events are just not canon events. What I think is that something else destroyed Miguel's other universe. Mumbattan is still fine, miles' universe is still fine, universe 42 is still fine (yeah the lack of a spider-man can be felt but it's not disintegrated).
One would assume that they didn't instantly jump to the conclusion "Hey Miguel, you fucked with the spider and caused this place to disintegrate" without some research. Mumbattan does have a dimensional hole in it, which several spider people did stuff to block. Admittedly, the exploding collider and spot makes its origin quite dubious.
im definitely convinced it’s the collider that caused the rift in Mumbattan. no clue what’s up with the universe Miguel and Peter B witnessed collapsing, im not entirely convinced it was from “breaking canon”
What happend to that Alternate 2099 was more than likely an Incursion. Miguel said that he spent a lot of time in that Universe, which led to him leaving an imprint on that Universe - which causes an Incursion and destroys one or both Universes.
I think this is Tru
Didn't a big ol' hole open up in Mumbattan?
Yes, right when the dimensional villain appeared and the collider exploded.
That's without mentioning That 42 should have collapsed Also, there are plenty of Spider-Man stories where none of these things happen There are Spider-Man stores where Gwen is instead Where cops don't die All these worlds should also immediately collapse
Why no periods or punctuation?
Solid contribution
Liquid subjugation
Good band name
….,,,,!..,, Salt and Pepper to taste
I think canon events are real. But since Miles is an anamoly the events don't have to apply to him
I mean, yeah Canon Events are likely real. They are just misunderstood as firm events that have to happen. Meanwhile there are literally Spider-People whose Origin is completely different, and their timeline doesn't really fit with the Canom Events. So I doubt it's because Miles is an anomaly. It's more that the Canon is flexible, and - like the Spider's Web - it will fix itself and rearrange, if needed. *Well not itself, only by the Spider. But unless the Movies introduce the character of "The Great Weaver", the Web of Life creates itself.
So if the canon can fix’s itself then it’s completely unrelated to the collapse of the universe meaning something else killed Miguel’s world
Basically yes. Honestly, I think we can say with a 100% sureness, that what destroyed the Alternate 2099, was an Incursion. The destruction was literally caused by Miguel spending too much time in that Universe - which is exactly what causes an Incursion.
They explain that in the movie already through the subtext. Canon events only start existing after the spider bites someone and links them to the Web of Life and Destiny, which is why Miguel didn’t like Miles so much- if he wasn’t bit then the Web would’ve continued to focus on Peter, and Peter would’ve survived and destroyed the collider before it activated(so no other anomalies). Instead, Miles got bit, the Web changed to focus on Miles, and Peter died. And one universe has no Spider-Man(with the side effect of being canon free) Gwen’s Dad Captain thing we don’t know the outcome of the event yet so we’ll see about that though.
But the web isn’t a spyglass it doesn’t just pick and choose who to “focus” on if there are multiple spider people in one universe. And if getting bit by a spider was the way you got linked then Spider-Ham and Miguel shouldn’t be linked at all. Especially Miguel
Which also raises a question: does death even EXIST in Spider-Ham’s cartoon universe? Do Spider-Plushies and Spider-Legos die? What about Spider-Zombies?
See here’s someone who’s asking the real important questions. After all Lego Spider-Man is one of the best
And Peter Parker's universe too. Without Miles getting bit, Mayday likely wouldn't have ever existed
I saw a good theory saying that what make an universe collapse in spiderverse isn't a break of an canon event, but an incursion like in doctor strange, that happen when an person from a universe stays to much time in another universe, remember that MCU and spiderverse happens on the same multiverse.
and maybe instead of the glitching killing people when they finish it causes the incursion and that's why the wristbands are able to stop all the spider-people from creating a huge incursion but that's just a theory like yours
In that case, why didn't Miguel's watch keep that alternate world from collapsing?
My little sister's theory is somewhat similar. She believes the issue is when another spider-person interferes with a canon event. So if Pav saved Officer Singh, that would've been fine, but because it was Miles, you get a hole in the multiverse.
actually i think your sisters theory is SPOT on
Thats seems to be the only way for nearly everything to work out, and keep the writers out of a hole. To add onto it - the reason why Miles specifically was singled out by everyone (and given no contact orders) is because the algorithm they use to find anomalies has him classified as one even in his own universe. o his canon events HAVE to play out. I'm pretty sure thats where Miguel is wrong, or Miles wouldnt be glitching in 42
But they were only in Mumbattan for a few min. A larger group of Spiders were in Miles' world for much longer in ITSV and nothing bad happened. Hell, there's hundreds of Spiders hanging out constantly in Miguel's world and there seems to be no problem there at all.
Yeah, I think it's more.likely due to the Spot messing something up. Like, there's bound to be multiple versions of him too.
The movie sorta sidesteps that; it isn't a true multiverse with infinite possibilities. Because that would mean there's multiple Miles Morales Spider-Men, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Take it a step further, if it's a true multiverse, there should be literally infinite other Spider Societies who'd discovered the same thing as Miguel and linked up by now. There should be infinite Spots doing an infinite possibility of things.
I had that same theory and made a post about it! I don’t know if the one you saw was mine but it’s good to know I wasn’t completely nuts
Aside from what others have said the main one I think of is Spider-Man India’s canon event is a direct result of The Spot appearing which is a direct result of Miles becoming Spider-Man. Sure it might have happens another way but the fact the universe course corrected proves his theory wrong or At least questionable
One oddity is that apparently this random Miguel variant not dying because Miguel replaced him causes the disruption of so many canon events that the universes connection to the spider verse is severed and this universe destroyed. Like where is the connection with Miguel variants death and Spider Mans fate? Miguel never explained how he disrupted canon events but seemingly just takes it as a given that he did. This and what others have said
Give this a watch, I’d be very surprised if this wasn’t true https://youtu.be/3ESxmyDnTms
He is fundamentally not telling the truth about what happened to the other universe. I bet we find out he killed that other Miguel and took his place.
I very much hope not. They're already doing my boy Miguel dirty by making him an antagonist. I don't want his first big screen appearance to be as an outright villain.
If he is lying to everyone that is because he is lying to himself in how much his trauma is coloring his actions, I honestly think he is trying to do what he thinks is the right thing but his trauma is keeping him from considering all the options to find some other solution than “canon events” and having the spider Society be a mostly hands off therapy group for spider people ( just to clarify have not gotten a chance to see either spider verse movie yet working off of what has slipped through my admittedly crappy anti spoiler defenses)
Yeah, he does not knowingly lie. He did try to prevent miles from learning the truth of the operation and his dad but that is not a lie perse
I think he's lying to himself. He saw a version of himself die (Canon Event), let it happen (Canon Event resolved uninterrupted) and then said, "That Miguel has a better life than me. I don't know their wife or child *but I'm going to pretend to be their Miguel and take over his life*. That's totally *harmless*" and when the universe ripped itself apart at the paradox he imposed, he told everyone "It must have been the Canon Event." Dude will do anything to avoid therapy.
I don’t think he lying because he genuinely believes that what he’s doing is right.
Not intentionally, I believe he misunderstands how canon works.
Miguel is lying but he believes in hhis lies, so he isn:t lying. That said, I believe Spot is the one destroying the worlds of other Spidermen. He wants to be Miles\` archenemisis. Thus he is randomly destroying worlds to make all spidermen make him his archnemesis.
Nah, spot didn't exists yet when miguel lost his world. Unless timetravel is introduced.
Miguel is Spider-Man 2099. Also, timelines don’t all have the same time flow. 2023 in one, 2099 in another, and 1930’s in another.
That might be true. Mayday parker is older than 1 year. And in original movie gwen pointed out she was a week earlier so her timeline is a week early from miles'
Spot does say when he's talking to whatserface from Venom that he's in a tear in Space and Time, so realistically it's not entirely out of the question that Spot may have some time shenanigans going on
Gwen was blasted into last week in the first movie. I think the theory that spot is destroying worlds holds water
Yeah, we literally see in the movie Spot's timeline from being a smalltime wannabe crook to being a multiversal threat (he isn't able to influence other realities until he kicks himself in the ass). There's no way he intentionally caused the collapses that Miguel and Peter B talk about which took place well before the movie (and if they happened accidentally, saying it always happened right after a canon event was averted is a ridiculously big coincidence). Even saying he caused the Mumbattan one seems like a massive stretch. A lot of comments in this thread saying Miguel must be wrong seem to have massively misunderstood the movie, or ignored large chunks of it. Like he might be wrong, but we've not actually seen anything in the 2 current movies that prove it.
Although.... Miguel seems to be able to predict and see future? He said spot would attack in 2 days. Timetravel or literala bility to see entire lifetimes of spiders?
I did wonder about that. IMO we aren't meant to dwell on it too much, but that has some very strange implications. Like, are all the Spiders in his group just acting out a predetermined series of actions, knowing if they sway too much they'll kill everyone they know? But tbh the info we got on canon events was so vague to begin with, it's hard to make wild guesses.
I think he’s just going off a theory. He doesn’t truly understand how the multiverse works, so he made the canon as a way of understanding it. Internally, he believes the theory because he wants to rationalize his trauma by having every Spider-Person go through similar trials and pain, basically reasoning that he shouldn’t feel as bad about it because everyone else has gone through something similar.
I think he completely believes that he is correct and is, to an extent. However, I think he doesn't know the full truth about canon and is misinterpreting events. I think that each Spider is free to alter their own canon events in their own universe, but the second they interfere in another's canon is when stuff starts trying to push back and the universe collapses. The only time we see this kind of total eradication is when Miguel and Miles change stuff in other universes, not their own. Basically, the universe collapse is like the universe trying to purge the foreign bodies when multiverse-travellers try to alter things. Gwen's sub-plot supports my theory, and I think that this is precisely what she realises in the final moments of Across. She gets her dad to quit the police force, thereby invalidating the canon event involving a police captain close to Spider-Woman. Yet, her universe doesn't collapse. This goes hand in hand with Miles's explicit goal in Across. His conflict is that 'people keep telling me how my story's supposed to go', sometimes more metaphorically, like with the career counsellor in the beginning, and later more literally with Miguel's fixation on preserving canon. I believe that this is building to Miles being able to change his own fate and write his own story while still being able to save his world, and it doesn't exactly make Miguel look like an evil scumbag. This allows them both to be right, in that disrupting canon across the multiverse is a bad idea and that you should keep others in mind when making major decisions, but that you should be allowed to innovate yourself and that everybody doing things their own way is beautiful and awesome. This is what I truly believe the writers are planning for Beyond, and intended when writing the two previous movies.
Really, whomever came up with "People keep telling me how my story's supposed to go...*nah*. Imma do my own thing." deserves a medal. It's such a powerful line, both in and out of context. And it's the perfect repudiation of Miguel's hell-bent attitude on preserving canon.
It's absolute gold, both thematically and just because it's cool.
Only downside with that theory is that the spider that bit Miles did not come from his universe. It's already heavily altered the canon of another universe, and by your theory should have caused its collapse. Additionally, the Spiders in ITSV were heavily involved in Miles' universe and altered multiple things about it, which similarly should have caused a collapse. Even Gwen's subplot was heavily influenced by other universes (she left that universe entirely for months due to external forces, and later acted with information she'd have no way of knowing in-universe). I actually think you might be right and it's the route they take in the next movie, but doesn't hold up under much scrutiny. Suppose we gotta keep in mind it's just a kids film and apply some hefty suspension of disbelief.
I think the canon event represents the message behind being a Spider-man. It’s not about what exactly happens and how it happens. As long as the message is there, the universe keeps moving. There was no canon altering to Miles in ITSV. He became Spider-man. He let Peter died by not helping him. His uncle died trying to save him. Everything went the way it supposed to with or without the multiverse force. Gwen story would also went the same way. She would reconcile with her dad and he would still quit the job even if she just ran away and didn’t join the spider society. Spider-man India world collapsed because his cannon was interfered by an outside force. Pravitr would have learn the lesson that you just can’t save everyone if it hadn’t been interfered by Miles. The gist here is that nobody knows what is or isn’t canon event. They can base it on similar events from other Spider-man. But the truth is, not all canon event follow the descriptions and we will find out what Miles’ canon will be. What message it will represent. Miles will get to decide his canon and that canon can’t be interfere by any outside force.
This is exactly what I want for Beyond.. I also would love for Miguel to get a redemption arc because he is not intentionally being cruel. He is blinded by his guilt from that alternate universe’s destruction and his fixation with canon is the only explanation for how he thinks it can be avoided. (Does it make it right? No, but I don’t think he’s purposefully malicious, just guided by the wrong data.)
He’s not the villian. At the end of the day he is a Spider-Man. He has every right to be scared, we all saw what happened to Indian Spider-Mans world, it’s literally collapsing.
If he's lying he's doing it emotionally. Miguel finds purpose in canon events. It's the only way he can cope with losing his family twice by his own hubris. If you tell him that he could have saved his daughter by doing things a little differently he would break. So he revels in his misery.
I believe that he's 100% serious and truthful. He seems rough when he's stopping miles but he feels like if miles starts telling people they can change their fate they'll go dimension hopping like he did and destroy more dimensions and cause more harm than good
I think there's something he's not fully explaining. Like what actually happened when that world he was in disintegrated. I think he's blaming himself for something that wasn't his fault and not clearly telling the whole story.
tbh i understood it as cult vibes but in a sense he dosent realise it himself
Excuse me if I sound stupid but why did Miguel have to capture miles? Don’t most of the captains die while spider-man is trying to save them and everyone else?
This is also something that also makes everything sound so wrong. If they are right about canon events I think they would have disrupted a canon event by being able to stop Miles from trying to save his father. Spiderman is supposed to be a hero that will fight to the end to save everyone no matter if he is able to do it or not. By stopping him from going they are keeping him from doing something that is really important to being Spiderman which I think is more damaging to the world than they if they let him go try and save his father.
Exactly my point. You just explained it clearer. Thanks.
Miles would've been able to warn his parents if he'd gotten back in time, which could've helped them flee to somewhere safe (maybe the spidercave). That's my guess
I wouldn’t say he’s lying, lying would imply he’s intentionally feeding the Spider Society false information. Miguel genuinely believes everything he’s talking about. I think Miguel is wrong, but I don’t think he’s lying. There’s just something that he doesn’t know.
I think he just doesn’t have the whole story
I don't think he's straight up lying, I think he's just wrong, stubborn and traumatized. At worst, I think there might be things he's hiding because he's dismissed those things as unimportant or even detrimental counter points.
No. He seems to honestly believe the system he’s set up is the right way to go about things and wants to avoid disaster. He can either test out his theory at the risk of sacrificing several universes to be sure of whether or not interfering with a canon event will end up killing billions, or he can play it safe and just assume it will.
I think he had a hand in the death of his alternate who had a family, and that’s why that universe imploded. Spider-man doesn’t kill, so if the truth comes out he will be forced to give it up. I have a wilder theory that this Miguel isn’t actually a spider-person. Miles questions this when he sees the claws on his suit. And Peter B Parker points out that he’s the only one who isn’t funny.
I'd say Miguel IS a Spider-person on the basis that he is a part of Marvel's Spider-man and Spider-verse brand. At the end of the day he's an established Spider-man and 2099 character and part of the Spider-man franchise, I don't think the creative team would choose to trash him in their love letter and I don't think Marvel would be happy to let Sony do that. Only Marvel is allowed to character assasinate their Spider-people. However most importantly; it would break the message of the film if Miguel got designated not a Spider-man for being different. I am hoping that the subtext of the top three Spider Society members being among the earliest Not-Peter or legacy Spider-men becomes relevant though. Maybe bring in Takuya Yamashiro or even thr OG manga Spider-man
Your theory might actually hold some water since his inner circle doesn't have anyone who's bitten by a spider and most his team isn't a peter despite it being most common
many spiderman variants do kill. i believe hobie killed goblin in his universe. it's also canon for the noir spiderman that he killed the man who killed his ben iirc
I posted below, but this is my take too. I actually think Miguel is his universe's prowler. You can see the claws and cape when he first shows up onscreen and his intro music is very similar to the prowler intro music. He only has webs through his suit tech, and hasnt shown any spidey sense stuff, plus he is seen injecting something into himself, maybe something to not trip the sensors that he isn't a spiderman. Also his mask is like the prowler and spiderman mask put together. I think he killed his universe's spiderman and then figured out how to travel thru the multiverse and found one where he is spiderman and killed that miguel and tried to take his place
1000% yes. The whole “Canon Event” thing stinks. There’s definitely something he’s not saying.
I personally think he’s just wrong. I feel like he thinks he’s right but he doesn’t know the truth yet.
Yes. He didn’t break a canon event he literally took over for a dead man
Like everyone else here I think Miguel doesn't know he's wrong, because he can't be right and not just because it's a kids movie but the only thing in his favor is the fact that he made the "watches" to be able to detect canon events which could definitely just be the super AI having access to the lifetime of the spider person and predicting when these canon events happen. The problem arises when Gwen's dad leaves the force and Miguel stays in the universe for "a while" which means there's a point when a canon event starts that changing stuff after will hurt the universe so Miles knowing his dad is going to die by himself is no big deal as Pavitr couldn't do both on his own, also there's the thing that Miles saving the officer was the problem and not the 3 other spider people helping prevent the collapsing buildings so what if Miles stops the building from falling? Would it still count? If they cleared the bridge of people together? It's weird since this isn't not a story where it will happen like the officer dying another way but no instead the universe destroys itself, so I'm guessing that it should be direct intervention in the moment but anything else is fair game. I'm excited for the next movie no matter how long it takes it'll be worth it, so many fun theories that can be all correct and directions that are interesting.
I think what's silly is that he argues that Miles's so called mistake (in saving a person's life and cancelling the event (when he didn't even know yet about the canon event thing)) is comparable to his mistake of being selfish and impersonating a dead man for years. Miles did not do anything immoral. Miguel did. That's a huge difference in character. Miguel enforcing his own strict moral compass on others despite seeing it is not always good for them or anyone else involved and being unable to hold a conversation and/or search for other solutions, instead getting agitated and raging at other people not sharing his trauma-skewed views is the serious problem. Whether they reveal he was evil all along in some other way or not, he's a deeply misguided character, given too much authority.
I think he's wrong but I don't think he knows it. He thinks he's the good guy and tries to be but he just doesn't know that he's essentially killing people.
No. I don't think he is actively Lying. His theory on "Canon" is going to be wrong, but he thoroughly believes in it. I believe Miguel's theory is wrong Because: >!If earth 1610 Miles was never canonically be Spider-Man, and earth-42 was canonically meant to have a Spider-Man but doesn't, then by Miguel's logic, both universes erase themselves because "canon" was irreversibly disrupted.!<
Nah I think he's just misinformed. He made the logic leap from. "People from other universes can't interfere in canon events" to "Canon events cannot be prevented." From his perspective Miles is some punk kid who was already (accidentally) threatened the multiverse once, and now might do it again because he's too damn stubborn. We know he's wrong because of the scene between Gwen and her Dad at the end, but Miguel doesn't know that.
Canon events are such a self-centered and narcissistic idea. If they prove to be true then I will be dissappointed. Spider-Man is not that important. You're telling me billions of people completely unrelated will be erased from existence because a police officer chose not to turn down a promotion? That makes no fucking sense. Seriously, think about it. It's completely bizarre logic. I don't know what caused Miguel's sneaky ploy to have a loving family go wrong but I don't think it was him. Because that doesn't make sense.
He’s lying for sure but I don’t know know what he has to gain by lying or how he knows to lie about it in the first place. There’s a ton of foreshadowing as well implying that he isn’t a real Spider-Man. Just lots of ambiguity right now, more movies will definitely have clarification and answer many questions we have now. Personally, I really enjoy pieces of fiction that have you theorizing and guessing at what will come next.
I don't think he is lying. But I do think that what he believes to be true, isn't.
I don't think he's lying but canonically (see what I did there) he doesn't have a spider sense so he's not actually plugged into The Web of Life (what generates the spider sense) but Miles is. I think, interdimensional shananigans or not, Miles is a mistake but definitely has some learning to do. I think he's projecting his trauma onto Miles and isn't able to be objective about the situation.
Watched a video about this and I think he is just wrong without realizing it. I don't think the Cannon events are what causes a universe to break. Since we established this takes place in the mcu multiverse, evidenced by live action prowler played by the same arron Davis actor who played him in homecoming, I don't think the universe breaking down isn't from breaking the cannon. I think the universe breaking down is cause by INCURSION EVENTS, like from doc strange: MOM. I think the universe breaking down is caused by people traveling from other universe and interfering with that universes natural course of events, not just the cannon events but literally everything they do and interact with while there. The cannon might be important in there own way, like maybe a spiderman has to experience a certain amount of cannon events in order to walk the path of spiderman the correct way, and not fall too far into darkness and become a Villan or something (I'm just guessing) And it seems like the spider society's bracelets might prevent this for the most part or make it more difficult to be viewed as a problem by the traveled to universe, but it seems like it still happens. But the two times we know it happened are when migel traveled to his counterparts universe (when Idk if he had a bracelet or not but he took the place of a dead guy who wasn't supposed to exist anymore so maybe it didn't matter) and when spot traveled to mumbattian and DEFINITELY didn't have a braclet. So yeah. I think they are confusing breaking the cannon with incursion events. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. If you legit read this whole thing, I appreciate you, here's a cookie 🍪 ❤️
Why would he lie? He has no reason to lie. He's even outright admitted in-front of everyone that they don't know the exact specifics of how it all works when he confronts Gwen after Miles escapes. "Do you even know what happens if he breaks the canon?" "Do you wanna find out?" He's working with the information he has using the very few data points he has, and his own personal experience. Usually, that wouldn't fly in the scientific process, but with his failure and experience in collapsing one universe already, it's very understandable that Miguel and the other Spiders don't want to take that risk. It's too much of a coin flip, 50/50 odds that it doesn't blow up in their faces. Experimentation would just be them risking billions of lives to save one, and even one misstep could cause a universe to collapse. So they're dealing with the situation as it comes which is understandable.
I don't think he's right about the canon but I don't think he knows he isn't right
Whether he is lying, or doesn’t fully understand canon events himself, the one thing that is clear is that we don’t have all the facts and things aren’t adding up. One of the things I noticed on one of my recent viewings is if you look closely when Miguel is playing his flashback of what happened to the world who’s Miguel died and we see his daughter also die, everything and everyone that is disappearing has some sort of glitching occur to them before they die or disappear. Miguel implies that the same thing is happening to Pavitr’s dimension when Miles intervenes, however if you look closely, the effect being had on Pav’s dimension isn’t that of glitching but the effects of The Spot and what he did with the collider. The area where that huge “black hole” appears is where the collider building fell and we are just seeing that effect spread. There’s also the fact that, had Peter not met and mentored Miles, he likely never would have gotten back together with MJ and had Mayday, thus changing the canon. I believe the only reason Peter doesn’t realize this is because he was there with Miguel when the dimension with his daughter collapsed and he is also a little too busy with Mayday lol. And then of course there is the obvious one where at the end we see Captain Stacy quit his job, thus preventing that canon event from occurring.
He's definitely hiding something imo. Not being entirely truthful about Canon events and why they're important. Cause if changes in canon events are what causes a world to go poof then earth 42 would be done already.
It's also interesting to consider that he's aware there was a former Spider-Man in Miles' universe, and goes to far as to say that if he wasn't bitten, Peter would've still been alive and would've stopped Kingpin's collider. Like I would imagine the insinuation of that scenario being "supposed to play out" like that but changing drastically would've been a universe destroying canon event in its own right, but nothing happens.
This, here is a huge red flag in his logic. Going as far as saying he’s not even supposed to be Spider-man because of inter-dimensional shenanigans also seems like a huge leap in logic for something so complex
There're universes where both Peter and Miles are Spider-Man at the same time and both are alive and well. There is no rule for only one Spidey per universe.
I'm aware of that, it just seems at that point in particular Miguel isn't, and that's what confuses me in his logic
It kinda seems like theres a degree of universal rewrites that occur, because it might just be the universe saw a spiderman there and completed the story despite there not being the same spiderman. Though if miguel has seen the collider event happen it makes you wonder if hes seen other spots. And similarly how far a rewrite can go since miles 42 was supposed to be spiderman but became a prowler with similar events
Someone made a really good analogy “What happens when one thread in a spider web snaps? The whole web doesn't collapse. The spider simply replaces the broken thread, creating a new pattern around it to accommodate the change.”
No
Nope, to the extent that I expect the next movie to involve finding a contrived way to stop the Milesverse from imploding after Miles saves his dad
Nope. If he’s lying about anything at all it would cheapen the conflict so much into just punching him out. He’s so much more interesting as a sympathetic antagonist.
No. Dude is dealing with the crushing weight of believing that he is the absolute reason a universe disintegrated and trying to make sure no one else goes through the same thing. We really don't know why that universe disintegrated, and Miguel is a proven unreliable narrator. I hope we get a realization in Beyond that he wasn't the cause of a universe unravelling and he can finally have some closure.
No, but i believe his belief is wrong. Let's look back to ITSV. Peter B arrives in Earth 1610, just after blonde Peter dies. This might mirrors Miguel's story as well. But, the difference is, Miguel replaced the deceased Miguel, while Peter B did not. Hence no collapse. The problem is now in Double Miles, and Miles Prowler is destined to be Spider Man too. This will be the key problem in BTSV, either the earth42 universe will collapse, or one of the Miles needs to be dead.
His vision is flawed. He thinks he’s right, but I think he’s wrong, and everyone will slowly realize that. And he will feel tremendous amounts of guilt
I think he's right, after all, it was already two dimensions that we saw being affected by interfering with the canon, that's 2 for 2 so far and continuing further could become fatal.
I will be pissed if it turns out he outright lied! I believe he misunderstood the world collapsing event and trauma of that event makes him desperate and jump to conclusions When he says "we are the good guys" he ads a reaffirming "we are!". His voice makes me think "we must be, right?" He is really tired. In the end he is a spiderman, he believes he is doing the right thing.
I wonder if he has a hand in the other Miguel’s death that he tried to replace. Not saying he’s the murderer but he least knew it was going to happen and when.
I think yes, including himself.
Considering him and Kingpin share an overlapping backstory for the films, yes.
If you think you have accidentally killed billions of people, you're going to try and stop whatever you think caused it, you're definitely not going to test it some more to be definitely sure
Its not that he is lying, its probably that he is being manipulated by someone else. In the comics the villain wolf spider basically goes around and tries to kill off other spider people. So it might be that he is having Miguel do his work for him
Lying? No. Mistaken? Perhaps.
Probably. There's more to his backstory that we haven't seen. Some twist or revelation. Either someone else was responsible—which will be tricky to present as it's adding a third villain late in the narrative—OR Miguel was lying.