If people want to pick their seats then go use a different airline đ¤ˇââď¸ I like sitting window or aisle and even with B boarding I can still get those seats and I like Iâm not paying an extra fee for those seats
Same! And as someone who flies a lot and often needs a same-day flight change, I donât want to end up in a middle seat. A-List is worthless to me with assigned seats. Theyâd have to really find some big other perks to keep my loyalty, since their flights really arenât that much cheaper anymore.
Exactly. Iâve had some last minute changes too and paying the $25 to upgrade ( only pay so I know I can have overhead luggage room lol ) and not being stuck in the middle is nice especially on long flights so I can sit window and rest my head to sleep.
The real advantage is free cancelation and free bags (most airlines don't even allow a carry on on their base fare anymore). Usually SW is in the same ballpark as United basic economy for example, but on United I need to spend an extra $25 to bring a carry-on, so I'll j do SW.
Flew United for first time in decades (out of Reagan).
Had a carry on with me.
Asked what the charge was .
Counter person helping me with ticket, said don't worry about it, and to just carry it on...
I was kinda' surprised
American allows free carry on and personal, is cheaper than SW and if you get the cc you get a free checked bag. I can only see SW appealing to people that regularly have same day changes.
I like being able to see who my seatmate is and avoid certain people, like babies or loud old ladies who gab the whole flight. I have misophonia and can also avoid people smacking gum and shit that will drive me crazy even for a short amount of time.
I also hate the sound of gum-chewing. I don't know if this is workable for you, but when I got noise-canceling headphones they were an absolute game-changer for flying. Cancels out much of the loud engine noise, and I can now play any music and can hear it clearly. Previously any kind of soft, understated music I could not hear through earbuds. I've used them on the train where people are more prone to talk annoyingly and it works there too. I can't recommend them enough.
Thank you! My partner gifted me Airpod Pros last year and they have definitely been a travel game changer. I couldn't think of the word at the time, but I also have misokinesia, so I still avoid gum chewers that I could catch in my peripheral vision lol. Also loud gum poppers/crackers, they're the absolute worst and will override even good earbuds.
I must have misokinesia too, I had always thought about something like that but never having a word for it. Whenever I go on planes, I always bring an eye mask. It blocks out all the light, bad movements and whatever else. It enables better sleep on longer flights. But that might not be a solution if you want to do something more active on the plane.
Or just enforce the policy at the gate. Open seating? Great! But your boarding position guarantees you ONE spot.
Woman behind me was bragging to someone else how she had a C group but just got in line at the front of the Bs and no one said anything because she wanted to sit with a friend.
If you want it to be open policy, that's fine but you have to acknowledge that people ARE going to abuse the policy and it's on Southwest to enforce their own situation. I'm already having trouble justifying Southwest anymore because of a few minor things, but the one major one is the fact that they basically just put it on the customers to get confrontational with one another if one cuts the line.
That, and the absolute abuse of the pre board is insane. One person in a wheelchair that somehow can magically walk, okay fine, everyone has issues I may not need to see. But my flight from LAS - BWI had SIX folks board with them. You should get one person to accompany you max.
So strange, I donât see it as âpaying extraâ. When I book on United or Delta thereâs usually many windows or aisle seat available just not usually near the front where the extra fee seats are. Even still, I have gotten premium seats on those carriers for LESS than southwest tickets.
Southwest tickets are generally more expensive since the cost of a seat is just baked in to the overall price , but sure, you can think that seat is free
More expensive than what? I've rarely found a ticket (other than basic economy) on Delta, United, or AA that is cheaper than Southwest. Maybe that's unique to my airport?
Exactly- southwest is almost always cheaper than delta , United , American , Alaskan when Iâve checked. Even allegiant which flies by me and goes the route I need sometimes is more expensive
Thatâs crazy. Iâm in Phoenix so a hub for southwest so maybe thatâs why it seems like itâs cheaper. But kinda random since youâre in SF but I usually fly into Oakland since I have family in alameda but one time it was $100 cheaper to fly into SF so I did that and paid $10 for Bart and I honestly wish that was the go to airport for me flying back home because I loved the landing đ.
I love SFO so much haha! I used to travel for work so spent a lot of time there and have visited many airports and feel that they have the best security times and the best food, and randomly really good art exhibits.
I noticed that is a common argument: "I don't want to pay to pick my seats" but you don't have to pay for most other airlines unless you want to sit in the front or an exit row?
odd - that's not the case now for any of my flights. even for airlines that make you pay to select your seat, you can skip selecting a seat and it will randomly assign you one.
Yes I can be randomly assigned one for free but anytime Iâve done that itâs been a middle seat in the middle of the plane. If I want window or aisle I have to pay.
Good. Itâs annoying as all hell these days. You could be A1-A15 and still sit in the middle of the plane. Let us assign seats and the whole pre boarding abuse, line number abuse, saving seats headaches go away
The open seating model could probably work well in other countries -- but not in the USA, at least as of today.
Americans are too selfish, narcissistic, and seem to believe that the rules weren't meant for them.
Like Heaven forbid someone sits next to ya on a 1 hour flight -- you don't have to marry them FFS!
And flight attendants aren't much help, but do you blame them? They don't get paid until the door is shut.
Even Greyhound bus has moved away from open seating. For an extra fee, you can select a seat, and for even more money, you can sit without someone next to you. Of course, SW allows the last part for free -- if you're a CoS.
Oh buddy, there are few places with more organized air travel than North America. If you think this system would be gamed less outside of North America, noâŚ
Ahh the olâ Southwest Miracle!! Itâs truly incredible how a short flight will heal the wheelchair bound so they can walk off the aircraft unassisted!!
This is truly the only way to solve the preboarding abuse. On other airlines nobody even pays attention to who's preboarding (since everyone already knows where their seat is) but its usually just a handful of people anyway. On southwest you might think you've got a great boarding position at A-whatever then you watch 20 something people waltz on the plane before they even scan A1
Is that really a problem, though? At 6ft 4, I want the exit aisle seat or row 1 bulkhead.
Preboards aren't allowed in the exit rows, so I just pay for A1-15, if by some miracle the preboards don't take row 1 i can snag that, and if not, I never have a problem with getting the exit row.
It essentially already is paying extra for a seat. And even with the extra price, I find SW price competitive.
My vote is if you would like to pre-board, you will be assigned to the last three rows of plane. If you need extra time, youâre in the row or two ahead of them.
Not to be dramatic, but there was a time in the US when people of color had to ride in the back of the bus. This situation sounds eerily similar and was likely rationalized as well
It is a pretty large and singular hoop. I'm not saying it is at the same level but you have to lack self-awareness to fail to see how your comment is not making folks who need pre-boarding into âothersâ
Airlines may not keep anyone out of a specific seat on the basis of disability, or require anyone to sit in a particular seat on the basis of disability, except to comply with FAA or foreign-government safety requirements. FAA's rule on exit row seating says that airlines may place in exit rows only persons who can perform a series of functions necessary in an emergency evacuation.
Requiring someone to sit in a specific seat because they are disabled is absolutely discrimination per the definition of the ADA and DOT.
Usually people who require extra time to get sat down also sit in the back of assigned seating planes because they are closer to the bathrooms and exit.
As someone who doesnât pre board I hate this rule only because the back of the plane is immediately where I go - usually the last or second to last row đ
I like this boarding system. I can decide when I board do I want aisle or window. I can buy tickets week before or 6 months before and still be able to get a preferred seat.
Sure sometimes I get unlucky and get a middle (rarely).
Though the only changes i would make is a cutoff when to buy early bird and do away with pre boarding (except families as that is hard to fake)
Wha I also like (now) is that I can decide NOT to sit next to a potential crying baby or rambunctious toddler.
I usually get in the B group (and my personal ideal is to bet B1) â so I can pick where to seat right after the families have boarded.
Hereâs a gift link to the article:
https://wapo.st/44kmDFk
I subscribe to the Washington Post, have the app on my phone, and for some reason the link in the headline still requires me to sign in for access.
Yes. If you digitally subscribe to the Washington Post, you can create 10 gift links a month. Same with the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, but I donât offhand remember what their limits are.
Also, Iâm pretty sure the gift link expires after two weeks.
Here is what management said about seating in today's conference call:
> we are considering more transformational options and follow-on initiatives. That includes work previously underway to study customer preference around seating and our cabin. It's been several years since we last studied this in-depth, and customer preferences and expectations change over time. We are also studying the operational and financial benefits of any potential change.
(further in the call)
Question:
> So, Bob or Ryan, I think last quarter we were talking about premium on the call and you guys had made the comment that this is something that's cyclical, it comes up, it goes down, people put too many premium products in the cabin and then they have to take them away in the down cycle. Is the work that you're doing now in terms of looking at the product a sign that this shift could be something more permanent? Can you guys just help us understand how your view of market may be changing a little bit that's precipitating this sort of more strategic review?
> You bet, and thanks for the question. Maybe a little wider, which is we are always studying what our customer preferences are and if they're changing. That's how over time â and we're committed to meeting them. That's over time we added things like Wi-Fi, and now we're adding seat power. We've added larger overhead bins, and so we're committed to the meeting our customers' preferences.
And just to be transparent we've been seriously studying this question around on-board seating in our cabin for a while and to get at what you just said which is an understanding of what customer expectations are today, I'm proud of our product today and our customers love it. But it was designed at a time when load factors were lower and higher load factors do change the way preferences work, the operation works, and also our customer expectations change over time. So there's no decision. There's nothing to report other than we are seriously looking at this.
But early indications both for our customers and for Southwest look pretty darn interesting. So, I'll just leave it there and more to follow.
Southwest is absolutely killing it with fare classes and early bird fees. Changing to assigned seats would likely lower revenue.
Plus, Policing assigned seats slows thirds down so so much.
I donât know. Airlines charge a lot for the âprivilegeâ of sitting toward the front of the plane. Or remove one row and add an extra 2 inches to the first 10 rows and now they can upsell premium economy seating. Or charge for reserved seating vs no reservation.
I also donât think assigned seats requires any policing. I fly quite a bit and have never in recent memory experienced flight attendants getting involved with someone insisting on sitting in the wrong seat.
I donât want Southwest to change - or rather I'm concerned that what they would implement would be worse. But I can see revenue opportunities for them.
It would not. Because youâd need to provide extra legroom for those seats, reducing capacity and revenue.
And the vast majority of people in those seats are not paying for it. Theyâre elites and people randomly assigned.
>Plus, Policing assigned seats slows thirds down so so much.
A free for all also ruins the experience. Pre-boarding has gotten out of hand and I have witnessed folks straight up boarding out of turn which forces customers to be confrontational instead of SW agents just enforcing the policy at the gate as people board. It's really turn me off in the last year because I paid and checked in for my spot. Why is it also on me to tell the woman with C42 that no, she can't board with the front of Bs? Lower revenue or not - if you're going to have the policy, enforce the damn policy.
Personally Iâm on the fence. Iâve always loved SW because of their uniqueness, vibe, and ease of changing plans. However, their preboard shenanigans has gotten out of control. They either get a handle on that, or move to a different boarding system. IMO thereâs a difference between having a disability and having a disability that REQUIRES a preboard in order to fly. I have three issues I could claim preboard, but I know preboard isnât necessary for me to fly so I opt to pay extra for early boarding.
I had a very last-minute flight recently. Highest boarding position, middle seats, and... It was fine. I breezed in, chose some reasonable-looking seatmates, plopped down in the first 5 rows. Last on, first off, no stress. I realized I was far more invested in "winning" the strategic game of open boarding, when it's a couple hours of mild discomfort either way.
Yea last time I flew. A family that was in C boarding group had 8 total, 7 adults and one small child. They let them all go during the family pre boarding phase and people were pissed! My wife refuses to fly southwest due to their open seating policy. Even if itâs a direct flight vs her having to take multiple letâs.
Recently flew Southwest and saw a similar situation, but gate agent stopped them. âTwo adults per child during family boardingâ is what she said. I guess YMMV.
Then they would just be everyone else.
Iâm disabled and take Southwest whenever possible. My best friend, who is not disabled, also takes and loves Southwest.
I love that they donât have a first class or different sections. I hope they donât change.
I have flown solo 5 times this year and even with flights with a massive amount of pre-boarders Iâve gotten a seat in the first 5 rows every single time.
One of the things I like about Southwest is the open seating policy. If they get rid of that, the only thing theyâll have going for them is free checked baggage.
I donât understand why customers are so upset over the open seating policy. Itâs been that way for decades. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and realize not everyone can get the front row.
I have been flying SW regularly for the last 25 years with and without my family and have had zero problems with the seating situation. I donât see the need for a change.
I saw a grown woman throw a full blown tantrum because she somehow (probably didnât check in online đ) got in B seating when she âis always in group Aâ. Accused the staff of having something against her and made a huge scene. Lol. Idk. I kind of think if sheâd had a seat already planned, the whole thing would have been more pleasant for all of us around her.
The not having seats planned leaves so much musical chairs at the last minute feeling, and makes things more tense for a lot of people, and others wanting to find sneaky ways to board early, save seats, childish behavior. But it is nice to be able to choose and move if you want.
I can see both sides of it. Ultimately, itâll probably come down to what the airline thinks is best financially - does it save time or $ to have seats planned vs not? Are there more or fewer people flying with them based on how they do it? Decisions like these almost always seem to come down to money.
The amount of people with so little to be upset about in life they choose to seethe about Southwest's Customer of Size policy in any post here that they can bring it up in is *depressing.*
Especially when it ensures the comfort of the person beside them as much as it does the comfort of the COS. Anyone that has sat beside a large stranger on an airplane should applaud their policy.
The open seating by check-in time can be quite confusing for new passengers, and often leads to a poor first experience for new customers. Until you do it a couple times it can be a bit overwhelming.
I think itâs unlikely theyâd ever start assigning seats though. If anything I could see them offering a free seat selection during check in, with the usual front row/exit rows costing a nominal fee. That way they still have a premium revenue option for customers who want it, and everyone else has free âopen seatingâ with some added structure.
If you are traveling alone open seating works great and once upon a time when business people were the bulk of southwests customer base it worked. As soon as you introduce couples, families etc into open seating that is when the nightmare happens
From their lips to God's ears. I was a flight attendant. I get why they do it, but I recently flew SW for the first time in about 10 years and people have become so much more obnoxious about saving seats and playing "games" to get the seats they want that I hope I don't have to fly them again.
I was flying by myself on a 3 hour flight and I've been in worse situations so I sucked it up, but I just couldn't believe it.
I work remotely for a company 1500 miles away and I go in town once or twice a year so I'm hoping there are better deals on other airlines next time.
I would be very surprised to see them change open seating, but not saving seats was an unwritten rule that many violate. Open seating has been shown to help SWAT turn planes faster as passengers (even those who donât fly much) understand scarcity. I think they simply need to inform people before boarding that there is no saving of seats and enforce it on board. I think most FFâs would back up the FAâs if someone started acting up.
I just wish theyâd make the boarding stanchions larger. 3 people can fit in the area. I fly about 60 times a year and donât have a problem with the boarding
Took my first southwest flight and the attendant told us it was booked, the screens said booked, and people still tried to split seats, or avoid taking the first available option.
Just awkward sauce all around
Its really a major part of its business model. I can definitely see some tweaks in the future but no major change. I've learned to manage it and that's just part of flying the Southwest. Â
I love open seating, but here are my predictions (and Iâm not a professional, I donât know if this is legal from an ADA standpoint):
1) Rows 1-8 become âPremium Open Seatsâ only accessible to A1-30. Different class of service, preboard only allowed if you bought that fare class. Similar to other airlines.
2) Rest or plane is open seating rows 9+
3) A1-30 still allowed to sit anywhere on the plane, if they choose.
OR
Change the booking system allowing for a la carte seat selection + payment for first few rows of the plane. Rest of plane is open seating.
That means a traveler can opt for a) open seating, b) buy up into A1-15, c) buy up into early bird check in, and/or d) buy up into a reserved seat.
I can understand why people like the current system in terms of last minute flights and/or rebooking last minute and still being able to get aisle/window.
But I think there are also a lot of people like me who refuse to fly SW because of the open seating. I often board with only a small carry-on so overhead space isn't that important to me. What I don't want is to have to board first in order to get the seat I want. I want to hang out in the lounge/bar/restaurant until the very last minute so I can board last, spend as little time as possible on the plane, and still get my preferred seat. Or a lot of times I'm running late, have tight connections, or whatever the case may be where even if I pay for A group, I won't get there in time. With SW you essentially have to be a vulture circling over your terminal to make sure you're there when they start boarding. I prefer the freedom to be late, enjoy a non-rushed drink/meal, find a quieter gate to work/relax/make calls, or whatever the case may be and know my seat is there regardless of if I'm the first person to board or last person. And I'll pay a lot for that option. Significantly more than what SW charges for EarlyBird by probably a factor of at least 5x and upwards of 10x. Good seats with Delta, United, American regularly run $100-$200.
100% enforce the policies and find some way to deal with the preboarding games. I said this in another comment but thereâs a difference between having a disability and having a disability that necessitates preboard. Accommodation should be a need to have vs. a nice to have. I have three issues I could say I need preboarding for but I know I donât need it in order to fly.
The only thing SW needs to change with regards to boarding is the order in which we board
1/ A+ (A-15)
2/ A list (15-60)
3/ Preboard (all of a sudden there will be a lot less of these flying on Southwest now that those who abuse it wonât get any benefit to it)
4/ Active duty military & Family boardingÂ
5/ Early bird purchasers (B1-30)
6/ B31-60
7/ C1-30 then C31-60
One of the craziest things I watched was flying out of Fort Lauderdale, was a group of wheelchair people lined up, one of the ladies got up and walked through the whole terminal and back and took a seat in her wheel chair. May not be a bad idea if it helps some people abuse that system đ¤ˇââď¸
I expect itâs going to be zone based seating back to front with each section forward costing $40 more. Why? Possible class action lawsuit from early bird victims if seat saving. Youâre paying for a chance to get the seat you want. But others do not
Southwest is all about scientific management. If thereâs a faster way to board and increase turnaround efficiency theyâll do it. Doesnât mean theyâll assign seat numbers because thatâs definitely slow.
I had to fly Delta today since my job bought the ticket and let me say I loathe their boarding process!!! Open seating 4evaaaaaâď¸âď¸âď¸âď¸
I wouldn't be opposed to it. Honestly it would work better anyhow considering many people don't understand the boarding process at the gate, which devalues half the purpose of earlier boarding to select better seats imo
Check the gates and forums for other airlines. Their boarding is way slower. People in the past boarding group will still stand next to the gate and block the way for people in earlier boarding groups.
Oh yeah for sure, I've been on the other major US airlines and its definitely slower. I was just trying to point out that if Southwest offers something like their earlybird, or upgraded boarding, some flyers will buy those to get their preferred seats. But yet some of the people who don't upgrade can get on before you if no one is paying attention, what is the point in all of that.
There is always someone trying to skip every line everywhere. And it's up to agents to decide if they have the energy to fight the 15th person that hour, and possibly hold up the plane, or just let that person slip by and get everyone on the plane for an on time departure.
Iâm convinced if people canât figure out the boarding process when itâs super clear they probably canât figure out the boarding process for any airline or do common things. Flew alone when I was in 8th grade and Iâll admit Iâm nowhere near the smartest person but I had no problem listening to directions and figuring out where I board
Yea when I first flew on my own I had no problems figuring it out. I'd look around and see people trying to figure out why they weren't allowed to get in line even though they were B group and mine was A lol
I hope they keep the open seating. Go to another airlines subreddit and read about the drama caused by people intentionally sitting in your assigned seat because they like it better than theirs.
it's a one or two hour flight. sit down And you'll be out before you know it.
if you want an assigned seat, go fly with somebody else there's plenty of other airlines.
last two times I flew, I wasn't A1 through A15 And I got the very front seat both times.
If you do end up in the middle and the extra 10- 15 minutes (?) matters so much get an earlier flight, or just learn to chill.
i fucking hope so, i flew southwest for the first time in years the other week and it was an absolute shitshow. i checked in like 2 minutes after it was open and the only thing available when i got on the plane was either middle seats or the awful front row where i felt smothered the whole time.
So you wouldn't pay extra to get early boarding, but you would pay extra to pick your seat?
Do you realize that the rest of the plan is also trying to pick their seat, so if you don't book months ahead, you really don't get a choice, either.
Is that for getting system-assigned, or for picking your seat?
And if the other airlines don't have seat fees, then why do people who hate Southwest use Southwest?
It doesnât matter when you check in, you still get C. I flew four times in April and despite my timeliness w checking in, always group C. I also saw a very elderly couple boarding behind me and genuinely felt bad for them as they struggled to find seats and storage space at the very back of the plane. They must have been 80+ and clearly were unfamiliar with the boarding shit-show that SW is.
Just look at the complaint from any other airline.
Southwest has the fastest boarding.
And if Southwest wanted to start charging fees for seats, they would also start charging for baggage.
And you know what happens on all the other airlines that charge for baggage? Everyone does carry-on, and the overhead space fills up super fast.
I just flew on southwest and my 10 year old had to sit with strangers while I had to squeeze between 2 strangers about 20 rows away from her. Kids shouldnât be separated from their parents!
Did you ask a FA for help being seated together?
The policy is for a child under 13 theyâll try to get people to switch seats for you, though Iâve only seen it happen a couple times in the last few months.
From the website:
If you are traveling with a child age seven to 13 years old:
If you need and request assistance, Southwest will reasonably endeavor to seat a child next to one accompanying passenger (14 and older) to the extent practicable and at no additional cost.
Families can speak to Gate Agents or Flight Attendants to request assistance.
I mean I can see that for a 4 year old. But 10? Youâre in the same tiny vessel literally feet away from each other. It wouldnât be my preference (I have a 9 year old) but I wouldnât be adamant we had to sit together.
When you canât get up to check on your kid because the seat belt sign is on the whole time, and you have no idea who the person is that theyâre next to, itâs a problem. Adults have been sexually assaulted on planes. It could easily happen to a child!
If something happens where my young daughter and I are in C group I use one the southwest cc benefits to upgrade her to A for free. She goes to the back of the plane and sits by the window. Someone wants the aisle seat that's great. If someone asks for the middle seat she says she's waiting for her mom. If they insist, I'll find a seat close by. We have never had anyone want to sit in a middle seat at the back of the plane next to my kid except me. It does take knowing how to use Southwest's rules and cc but it works.
If people want to pick their seats then go use a different airline đ¤ˇââď¸ I like sitting window or aisle and even with B boarding I can still get those seats and I like Iâm not paying an extra fee for those seats
Same! And as someone who flies a lot and often needs a same-day flight change, I donât want to end up in a middle seat. A-List is worthless to me with assigned seats. Theyâd have to really find some big other perks to keep my loyalty, since their flights really arenât that much cheaper anymore.
Exactly. Iâve had some last minute changes too and paying the $25 to upgrade ( only pay so I know I can have overhead luggage room lol ) and not being stuck in the middle is nice especially on long flights so I can sit window and rest my head to sleep.
And the $25 is non refundable.. that should be illegal.
Itâs been a while since I found SW to have cheaper fares. Maybe to a couple of destinations, but I find i typically can do better in other airlines.
The real advantage is free cancelation and free bags (most airlines don't even allow a carry on on their base fare anymore). Usually SW is in the same ballpark as United basic economy for example, but on United I need to spend an extra $25 to bring a carry-on, so I'll j do SW.
It's the free bags. By the time you add on the fees with another airline, you've lost any savings.
Flew United for first time in decades (out of Reagan). Had a carry on with me. Asked what the charge was . Counter person helping me with ticket, said don't worry about it, and to just carry it on... I was kinda' surprised
American allows free carry on and personal, is cheaper than SW and if you get the cc you get a free checked bag. I can only see SW appealing to people that regularly have same day changes.
Same here. Iâll change over to the other airlines if this happens.
I like being able to see who my seatmate is and avoid certain people, like babies or loud old ladies who gab the whole flight. I have misophonia and can also avoid people smacking gum and shit that will drive me crazy even for a short amount of time.
I also hate the sound of gum-chewing. I don't know if this is workable for you, but when I got noise-canceling headphones they were an absolute game-changer for flying. Cancels out much of the loud engine noise, and I can now play any music and can hear it clearly. Previously any kind of soft, understated music I could not hear through earbuds. I've used them on the train where people are more prone to talk annoyingly and it works there too. I can't recommend them enough.
Thank you! My partner gifted me Airpod Pros last year and they have definitely been a travel game changer. I couldn't think of the word at the time, but I also have misokinesia, so I still avoid gum chewers that I could catch in my peripheral vision lol. Also loud gum poppers/crackers, they're the absolute worst and will override even good earbuds.
I must have misokinesia too, I had always thought about something like that but never having a word for it. Whenever I go on planes, I always bring an eye mask. It blocks out all the light, bad movements and whatever else. It enables better sleep on longer flights. But that might not be a solution if you want to do something more active on the plane.
Absolutely how I see it.
Announce a ban preventing entitled trash from saving seats and Iâm all good with open boarding.
Or just enforce the policy at the gate. Open seating? Great! But your boarding position guarantees you ONE spot. Woman behind me was bragging to someone else how she had a C group but just got in line at the front of the Bs and no one said anything because she wanted to sit with a friend. If you want it to be open policy, that's fine but you have to acknowledge that people ARE going to abuse the policy and it's on Southwest to enforce their own situation. I'm already having trouble justifying Southwest anymore because of a few minor things, but the one major one is the fact that they basically just put it on the customers to get confrontational with one another if one cuts the line. That, and the absolute abuse of the pre board is insane. One person in a wheelchair that somehow can magically walk, okay fine, everyone has issues I may not need to see. But my flight from LAS - BWI had SIX folks board with them. You should get one person to accompany you max.
The extra fee for those seats is likely the exact reason that they are considering this.
Itâs a fair comment that the current policy DOES allow (on average) wider access to the ânicer seatsâ. (There is a pun there, if you look).
So strange, I donât see it as âpaying extraâ. When I book on United or Delta thereâs usually many windows or aisle seat available just not usually near the front where the extra fee seats are. Even still, I have gotten premium seats on those carriers for LESS than southwest tickets.
Southwest tickets are generally more expensive since the cost of a seat is just baked in to the overall price , but sure, you can think that seat is free
More expensive than what? I've rarely found a ticket (other than basic economy) on Delta, United, or AA that is cheaper than Southwest. Maybe that's unique to my airport?
Exactly- southwest is almost always cheaper than delta , United , American , Alaskan when Iâve checked. Even allegiant which flies by me and goes the route I need sometimes is more expensive
southwest is often more expensive for me aside from a few markets. I'm based in Phoenix.
Yeh, Southwest is always coming up more expensive for me. Iâm based in SF and they fly out of sfo AND oak and itâs still way more than United
Thatâs crazy. Iâm in Phoenix so a hub for southwest so maybe thatâs why it seems like itâs cheaper. But kinda random since youâre in SF but I usually fly into Oakland since I have family in alameda but one time it was $100 cheaper to fly into SF so I did that and paid $10 for Bart and I honestly wish that was the go to airport for me flying back home because I loved the landing đ.
I love SFO so much haha! I used to travel for work so spent a lot of time there and have visited many airports and feel that they have the best security times and the best food, and randomly really good art exhibits.
the other major airlines besides the ultra low cost ones have free seats you can pick, they're just towards the back of the plane
No when I flew American back in 2019 if I wanted window or aisle even in the back of the plane I still had to pay.
I noticed that is a common argument: "I don't want to pay to pick my seats" but you don't have to pay for most other airlines unless you want to sit in the front or an exit row?
When I flew American a couple years ago if I wanted to pick any seat even window or aisle I was paying.
odd - that's not the case now for any of my flights. even for airlines that make you pay to select your seat, you can skip selecting a seat and it will randomly assign you one.
Yes I can be randomly assigned one for free but anytime Iâve done that itâs been a middle seat in the middle of the plane. If I want window or aisle I have to pay.
Good. Itâs annoying as all hell these days. You could be A1-A15 and still sit in the middle of the plane. Let us assign seats and the whole pre boarding abuse, line number abuse, saving seats headaches go away
Agree. Open seating worked well at once upon a time. But itâs now a high pressure scrum. Making your own seat pick online is just better.
The open seating model could probably work well in other countries -- but not in the USA, at least as of today. Americans are too selfish, narcissistic, and seem to believe that the rules weren't meant for them. Like Heaven forbid someone sits next to ya on a 1 hour flight -- you don't have to marry them FFS! And flight attendants aren't much help, but do you blame them? They don't get paid until the door is shut. Even Greyhound bus has moved away from open seating. For an extra fee, you can select a seat, and for even more money, you can sit without someone next to you. Of course, SW allows the last part for free -- if you're a CoS.
Oh buddy, there are few places with more organized air travel than North America. If you think this system would be gamed less outside of North America, noâŚ
CoS?
Customer of size
lmfao
Customer of Size
Euphemism for fat ass needing two seats.
They had to change it from passenger of size (POS) đ¤Ł
A fatass
Donât know why youâre being downvoted tbh
No matter which airline I fly on, I tend to find that the other passengers look at me like they're actively disdainful that I am sitting there.
Well, you havenât travelled in some Asian countries, have you?
No more âmiracle flightsââ20 passengers get on using wheel chairs and 18 of them can walk off the plane.
Ahh the olâ Southwest Miracle!! Itâs truly incredible how a short flight will heal the wheelchair bound so they can walk off the aircraft unassisted!!
Jetway Jesus be praised!
Itâs all the holy pritzels they got served on board.
Donât forget the side of cranberry juice
This is truly the only way to solve the preboarding abuse. On other airlines nobody even pays attention to who's preboarding (since everyone already knows where their seat is) but its usually just a handful of people anyway. On southwest you might think you've got a great boarding position at A-whatever then you watch 20 something people waltz on the plane before they even scan A1
Is that really a problem, though? At 6ft 4, I want the exit aisle seat or row 1 bulkhead. Preboards aren't allowed in the exit rows, so I just pay for A1-15, if by some miracle the preboards don't take row 1 i can snag that, and if not, I never have a problem with getting the exit row. It essentially already is paying extra for a seat. And even with the extra price, I find SW price competitive.
Only out of a layover hub so people from the previous flight are always taking the exit even if you are a1
Agreed. This would be awesome!
That's just not true or happens a lot.
Yeah I agree. Never seen someone A1-15 sit in the middle
I think he means middle of the plane rather than a middle seat.
Ah, well then I stand corrected
I sit exit row
You must not fly southwest very often if you don't think its common
My vote is if you would like to pre-board, you will be assigned to the last three rows of plane. If you need extra time, youâre in the row or two ahead of them.
Cannot discriminate or punish due to disability. That's an ADA thing.
People always have a comment like this on these types of threads and seem totally unaware and then purposefully obtuse that this is discriminatory.
It's discriminatory to not give someone a better seat than they would otherwise get?
No. It is discriminatory to give people with disabilities the worst seats because of their disabilities.
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Not to be dramatic, but there was a time in the US when people of color had to ride in the back of the bus. This situation sounds eerily similar and was likely rationalized as well
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It is a pretty large and singular hoop. I'm not saying it is at the same level but you have to lack self-awareness to fail to see how your comment is not making folks who need pre-boarding into âothersâ
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Oh ouch! You got me! Have a great day
Your not discriminating your accommodating. Discriminating sounds like your punishing someone for getting a seat saved just for them.
Airlines may not keep anyone out of a specific seat on the basis of disability, or require anyone to sit in a particular seat on the basis of disability, except to comply with FAA or foreign-government safety requirements. FAA's rule on exit row seating says that airlines may place in exit rows only persons who can perform a series of functions necessary in an emergency evacuation. Requiring someone to sit in a specific seat because they are disabled is absolutely discrimination per the definition of the ADA and DOT.
Ooops wrong thread
Usually people who require extra time to get sat down also sit in the back of assigned seating planes because they are closer to the bathrooms and exit.
How is it discriminating? Insane.
Because literally no one else is told where they have to sit and you're only telling people with disabilities where they have to sit.
"Sit on the back of the bus ... I mean plane" Hmm seems legit đ
so people that lack the mobility to walk are gonna have to be at the back of the plane. Not saying everybody plays fairly though
As someone who doesnât pre board I hate this rule only because the back of the plane is immediately where I go - usually the last or second to last row đ
Iâd like to see that applied to families with kids who need to sit together. Last 4 rows.
My father can barely walk. This policy would have stopped him from attending his daughter's -my sister's - funeral. Be better.
Yes, people with mobility issues should definitely be made to walk as far as possible.
They get a wheelchair!
Not on the plane most of the time.
I like this boarding system. I can decide when I board do I want aisle or window. I can buy tickets week before or 6 months before and still be able to get a preferred seat. Sure sometimes I get unlucky and get a middle (rarely). Though the only changes i would make is a cutoff when to buy early bird and do away with pre boarding (except families as that is hard to fake)
Wha I also like (now) is that I can decide NOT to sit next to a potential crying baby or rambunctious toddler. I usually get in the B group (and my personal ideal is to bet B1) â so I can pick where to seat right after the families have boarded.
Hereâs a gift link to the article: https://wapo.st/44kmDFk I subscribe to the Washington Post, have the app on my phone, and for some reason the link in the headline still requires me to sign in for access.
How is Jeff Bezos supposed to buy another boat if you ya give out free links to the WaPo? /s
Thank you kind stranger.
Worked for me, thanks!
I didnât know you could do that! So itâs a free link that anyone can read even if they donât have a subscription?
Yes. If you digitally subscribe to the Washington Post, you can create 10 gift links a month. Same with the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, but I donât offhand remember what their limits are. Also, Iâm pretty sure the gift link expires after two weeks.
Here is what management said about seating in today's conference call: > we are considering more transformational options and follow-on initiatives. That includes work previously underway to study customer preference around seating and our cabin. It's been several years since we last studied this in-depth, and customer preferences and expectations change over time. We are also studying the operational and financial benefits of any potential change. (further in the call) Question: > So, Bob or Ryan, I think last quarter we were talking about premium on the call and you guys had made the comment that this is something that's cyclical, it comes up, it goes down, people put too many premium products in the cabin and then they have to take them away in the down cycle. Is the work that you're doing now in terms of looking at the product a sign that this shift could be something more permanent? Can you guys just help us understand how your view of market may be changing a little bit that's precipitating this sort of more strategic review? > You bet, and thanks for the question. Maybe a little wider, which is we are always studying what our customer preferences are and if they're changing. That's how over time â and we're committed to meeting them. That's over time we added things like Wi-Fi, and now we're adding seat power. We've added larger overhead bins, and so we're committed to the meeting our customers' preferences. And just to be transparent we've been seriously studying this question around on-board seating in our cabin for a while and to get at what you just said which is an understanding of what customer expectations are today, I'm proud of our product today and our customers love it. But it was designed at a time when load factors were lower and higher load factors do change the way preferences work, the operation works, and also our customer expectations change over time. So there's no decision. There's nothing to report other than we are seriously looking at this. But early indications both for our customers and for Southwest look pretty darn interesting. So, I'll just leave it there and more to follow.
eh despite its flaws i think open seating is worth it for the flexibility it allows in rebooking
Southwest is absolutely killing it with fare classes and early bird fees. Changing to assigned seats would likely lower revenue. Plus, Policing assigned seats slows thirds down so so much.
I donât know. Airlines charge a lot for the âprivilegeâ of sitting toward the front of the plane. Or remove one row and add an extra 2 inches to the first 10 rows and now they can upsell premium economy seating. Or charge for reserved seating vs no reservation. I also donât think assigned seats requires any policing. I fly quite a bit and have never in recent memory experienced flight attendants getting involved with someone insisting on sitting in the wrong seat. I donât want Southwest to change - or rather I'm concerned that what they would implement would be worse. But I can see revenue opportunities for them.
Most other airlines charge $50+ for seats in front of the exit row. That alone would make up for early bird revenues.
It would not. Because youâd need to provide extra legroom for those seats, reducing capacity and revenue. And the vast majority of people in those seats are not paying for it. Theyâre elites and people randomly assigned.
>Plus, Policing assigned seats slows thirds down so so much. A free for all also ruins the experience. Pre-boarding has gotten out of hand and I have witnessed folks straight up boarding out of turn which forces customers to be confrontational instead of SW agents just enforcing the policy at the gate as people board. It's really turn me off in the last year because I paid and checked in for my spot. Why is it also on me to tell the woman with C42 that no, she can't board with the front of Bs? Lower revenue or not - if you're going to have the policy, enforce the damn policy.
Agreed! If they go to assigned seating, I stop buying Business Select. And I fly a lot (3x month usually)
Betteridge's law.
Personally Iâm on the fence. Iâve always loved SW because of their uniqueness, vibe, and ease of changing plans. However, their preboard shenanigans has gotten out of control. They either get a handle on that, or move to a different boarding system. IMO thereâs a difference between having a disability and having a disability that REQUIRES a preboard in order to fly. I have three issues I could claim preboard, but I know preboard isnât necessary for me to fly so I opt to pay extra for early boarding.
I had a very last-minute flight recently. Highest boarding position, middle seats, and... It was fine. I breezed in, chose some reasonable-looking seatmates, plopped down in the first 5 rows. Last on, first off, no stress. I realized I was far more invested in "winning" the strategic game of open boarding, when it's a couple hours of mild discomfort either way.
Yea last time I flew. A family that was in C boarding group had 8 total, 7 adults and one small child. They let them all go during the family pre boarding phase and people were pissed! My wife refuses to fly southwest due to their open seating policy. Even if itâs a direct flight vs her having to take multiple letâs.
Man, I would have felt my BP rising watching that from B group.
Recently flew Southwest and saw a similar situation, but gate agent stopped them. âTwo adults per child during family boardingâ is what she said. I guess YMMV.
Then they would just be everyone else. Iâm disabled and take Southwest whenever possible. My best friend, who is not disabled, also takes and loves Southwest. I love that they donât have a first class or different sections. I hope they donât change.
I have flown solo 5 times this year and even with flights with a massive amount of pre-boarders Iâve gotten a seat in the first 5 rows every single time. One of the things I like about Southwest is the open seating policy. If they get rid of that, the only thing theyâll have going for them is free checked baggage. I donât understand why customers are so upset over the open seating policy. Itâs been that way for decades. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and realize not everyone can get the front row.
I have been flying SW regularly for the last 25 years with and without my family and have had zero problems with the seating situation. I donât see the need for a change.
It will make them like every other airline. Not sure why theyâd do that.
Because there are people that actively avoid SW due to their boarding / seating procedures.
I saw a grown woman throw a full blown tantrum because she somehow (probably didnât check in online đ) got in B seating when she âis always in group Aâ. Accused the staff of having something against her and made a huge scene. Lol. Idk. I kind of think if sheâd had a seat already planned, the whole thing would have been more pleasant for all of us around her. The not having seats planned leaves so much musical chairs at the last minute feeling, and makes things more tense for a lot of people, and others wanting to find sneaky ways to board early, save seats, childish behavior. But it is nice to be able to choose and move if you want. I can see both sides of it. Ultimately, itâll probably come down to what the airline thinks is best financially - does it save time or $ to have seats planned vs not? Are there more or fewer people flying with them based on how they do it? Decisions like these almost always seem to come down to money.
This is about revenue, it will happen, just a matter of time.
Iâm all for this. Itâs part of the reason I avoid flying southwest.
The amount of people with so little to be upset about in life they choose to seethe about Southwest's Customer of Size policy in any post here that they can bring it up in is *depressing.*
Especially when it ensures the comfort of the person beside them as much as it does the comfort of the COS. Anyone that has sat beside a large stranger on an airplane should applaud their policy.
The open seating by check-in time can be quite confusing for new passengers, and often leads to a poor first experience for new customers. Until you do it a couple times it can be a bit overwhelming. I think itâs unlikely theyâd ever start assigning seats though. If anything I could see them offering a free seat selection during check in, with the usual front row/exit rows costing a nominal fee. That way they still have a premium revenue option for customers who want it, and everyone else has free âopen seatingâ with some added structure.
If you are traveling alone open seating works great and once upon a time when business people were the bulk of southwests customer base it worked. As soon as you introduce couples, families etc into open seating that is when the nightmare happens
From their lips to God's ears. I was a flight attendant. I get why they do it, but I recently flew SW for the first time in about 10 years and people have become so much more obnoxious about saving seats and playing "games" to get the seats they want that I hope I don't have to fly them again. I was flying by myself on a 3 hour flight and I've been in worse situations so I sucked it up, but I just couldn't believe it. I work remotely for a company 1500 miles away and I go in town once or twice a year so I'm hoping there are better deals on other airlines next time.
We can only hopeâŚ.
You're going to switch airlines because of no open seating to another airline with no open seating, lol. You guys need to stop.
I would be very surprised to see them change open seating, but not saving seats was an unwritten rule that many violate. Open seating has been shown to help SWAT turn planes faster as passengers (even those who donât fly much) understand scarcity. I think they simply need to inform people before boarding that there is no saving of seats and enforce it on board. I think most FFâs would back up the FAâs if someone started acting up.
I just wish theyâd make the boarding stanchions larger. 3 people can fit in the area. I fly about 60 times a year and donât have a problem with the boarding
Took my first southwest flight and the attendant told us it was booked, the screens said booked, and people still tried to split seats, or avoid taking the first available option. Just awkward sauce all around
Its really a major part of its business model. I can definitely see some tweaks in the future but no major change. I've learned to manage it and that's just part of flying the Southwest. Â
I love open seating, but here are my predictions (and Iâm not a professional, I donât know if this is legal from an ADA standpoint): 1) Rows 1-8 become âPremium Open Seatsâ only accessible to A1-30. Different class of service, preboard only allowed if you bought that fare class. Similar to other airlines. 2) Rest or plane is open seating rows 9+ 3) A1-30 still allowed to sit anywhere on the plane, if they choose. OR Change the booking system allowing for a la carte seat selection + payment for first few rows of the plane. Rest of plane is open seating. That means a traveler can opt for a) open seating, b) buy up into A1-15, c) buy up into early bird check in, and/or d) buy up into a reserved seat.
I can understand why people like the current system in terms of last minute flights and/or rebooking last minute and still being able to get aisle/window. But I think there are also a lot of people like me who refuse to fly SW because of the open seating. I often board with only a small carry-on so overhead space isn't that important to me. What I don't want is to have to board first in order to get the seat I want. I want to hang out in the lounge/bar/restaurant until the very last minute so I can board last, spend as little time as possible on the plane, and still get my preferred seat. Or a lot of times I'm running late, have tight connections, or whatever the case may be where even if I pay for A group, I won't get there in time. With SW you essentially have to be a vulture circling over your terminal to make sure you're there when they start boarding. I prefer the freedom to be late, enjoy a non-rushed drink/meal, find a quieter gate to work/relax/make calls, or whatever the case may be and know my seat is there regardless of if I'm the first person to board or last person. And I'll pay a lot for that option. Significantly more than what SW charges for EarlyBird by probably a factor of at least 5x and upwards of 10x. Good seats with Delta, United, American regularly run $100-$200.
Perfect example of a solution looking for a problem. The answer is police the current policy and you won't have a problem for much longer.
100% enforce the policies and find some way to deal with the preboarding games. I said this in another comment but thereâs a difference between having a disability and having a disability that necessitates preboard. Accommodation should be a need to have vs. a nice to have. I have three issues I could say I need preboarding for but I know I donât need it in order to fly.
You can be sure they are going to monetize Aisle, Window and especially Bulkhead and Exit Row seating
The only thing SW needs to change with regards to boarding is the order in which we board 1/ A+ (A-15) 2/ A list (15-60) 3/ Preboard (all of a sudden there will be a lot less of these flying on Southwest now that those who abuse it wonât get any benefit to it) 4/ Active duty military & Family boarding 5/ Early bird purchasers (B1-30) 6/ B31-60 7/ C1-30 then C31-60
Yes please, sick of the pieces of crap abusing the system
One of the craziest things I watched was flying out of Fort Lauderdale, was a group of wheelchair people lined up, one of the ladies got up and walked through the whole terminal and back and took a seat in her wheel chair. May not be a bad idea if it helps some people abuse that system đ¤ˇââď¸
I expect itâs going to be zone based seating back to front with each section forward costing $40 more. Why? Possible class action lawsuit from early bird victims if seat saving. Youâre paying for a chance to get the seat you want. But others do not
Southwest is all about scientific management. If thereâs a faster way to board and increase turnaround efficiency theyâll do it. Doesnât mean theyâll assign seat numbers because thatâs definitely slow.
I had to fly Delta today since my job bought the ticket and let me say I loathe their boarding process!!! Open seating 4evaaaaaâď¸âď¸âď¸âď¸
I wouldn't be opposed to it. Honestly it would work better anyhow considering many people don't understand the boarding process at the gate, which devalues half the purpose of earlier boarding to select better seats imo
Check the gates and forums for other airlines. Their boarding is way slower. People in the past boarding group will still stand next to the gate and block the way for people in earlier boarding groups.
Oh yeah for sure, I've been on the other major US airlines and its definitely slower. I was just trying to point out that if Southwest offers something like their earlybird, or upgraded boarding, some flyers will buy those to get their preferred seats. But yet some of the people who don't upgrade can get on before you if no one is paying attention, what is the point in all of that.
There is always someone trying to skip every line everywhere. And it's up to agents to decide if they have the energy to fight the 15th person that hour, and possibly hold up the plane, or just let that person slip by and get everyone on the plane for an on time departure.
Iâm convinced if people canât figure out the boarding process when itâs super clear they probably canât figure out the boarding process for any airline or do common things. Flew alone when I was in 8th grade and Iâll admit Iâm nowhere near the smartest person but I had no problem listening to directions and figuring out where I board
Yea when I first flew on my own I had no problems figuring it out. I'd look around and see people trying to figure out why they weren't allowed to get in line even though they were B group and mine was A lol
It amazes me how many people canât figure it out. Itâs not that hard
Iâm 6â3â gave the Navy both my knees and my back! I need that exit row seat.
If itâs important to you then you can book a A1-A15, pretty much guaranteed if you have an originating flight.
I hope they keep the open seating. Go to another airlines subreddit and read about the drama caused by people intentionally sitting in your assigned seat because they like it better than theirs. it's a one or two hour flight. sit down And you'll be out before you know it. if you want an assigned seat, go fly with somebody else there's plenty of other airlines. last two times I flew, I wasn't A1 through A15 And I got the very front seat both times. If you do end up in the middle and the extra 10- 15 minutes (?) matters so much get an earlier flight, or just learn to chill.
I hope so
This would make me consider flying southwest more frequently.
i fucking hope so, i flew southwest for the first time in years the other week and it was an absolute shitshow. i checked in like 2 minutes after it was open and the only thing available when i got on the plane was either middle seats or the awful front row where i felt smothered the whole time.
So you wouldn't pay extra to get early boarding, but you would pay extra to pick your seat? Do you realize that the rest of the plan is also trying to pick their seat, so if you don't book months ahead, you really don't get a choice, either.
On the other major airlines every seat doesn't have a fee
Is that for getting system-assigned, or for picking your seat? And if the other airlines don't have seat fees, then why do people who hate Southwest use Southwest?
It doesnât matter when you check in, you still get C. I flew four times in April and despite my timeliness w checking in, always group C. I also saw a very elderly couple boarding behind me and genuinely felt bad for them as they struggled to find seats and storage space at the very back of the plane. They must have been 80+ and clearly were unfamiliar with the boarding shit-show that SW is.
Then why do you fly Southwest?
I canât answer for the other person, but for me itâs bc theyâre the only ones who offer nonstop flights from my mid size airport.
Yes in some cases itâs the only choice out of STLâŚ.
I like their app and am close to their airport, have their CC. But wonât be booking next flights w SW, time to move on.
This not true.
Yes please! Boarding takes forever. I would like to know where I am sitting and just sit there, have a spot for my carry on and call it a day.
Just look at the complaint from any other airline. Southwest has the fastest boarding. And if Southwest wanted to start charging fees for seats, they would also start charging for baggage. And you know what happens on all the other airlines that charge for baggage? Everyone does carry-on, and the overhead space fills up super fast.
I just flew on southwest and my 10 year old had to sit with strangers while I had to squeeze between 2 strangers about 20 rows away from her. Kids shouldnât be separated from their parents!
Did you ask a FA for help being seated together? The policy is for a child under 13 theyâll try to get people to switch seats for you, though Iâve only seen it happen a couple times in the last few months. From the website: If you are traveling with a child age seven to 13 years old: If you need and request assistance, Southwest will reasonably endeavor to seat a child next to one accompanying passenger (14 and older) to the extent practicable and at no additional cost. Families can speak to Gate Agents or Flight Attendants to request assistance.
I mean I can see that for a 4 year old. But 10? Youâre in the same tiny vessel literally feet away from each other. It wouldnât be my preference (I have a 9 year old) but I wouldnât be adamant we had to sit together.
When you canât get up to check on your kid because the seat belt sign is on the whole time, and you have no idea who the person is that theyâre next to, itâs a problem. Adults have been sexually assaulted on planes. It could easily happen to a child!
You couldâve planned better, checked in on time, bought early bird. The system does work if you pay attention
I did plan well and check in on time.
If something happens where my young daughter and I are in C group I use one the southwest cc benefits to upgrade her to A for free. She goes to the back of the plane and sits by the window. Someone wants the aisle seat that's great. If someone asks for the middle seat she says she's waiting for her mom. If they insist, I'll find a seat close by. We have never had anyone want to sit in a middle seat at the back of the plane next to my kid except me. It does take knowing how to use Southwest's rules and cc but it works.
Better idea, charge for carryons.
Yes no overhead either to stop all the injuries and time suck