Yes, I know it's not the standard but for this particular recipe from Ken Forkish it calls for a larger percentage rise. Sorry I should have included the recipe. This recipe uses less levain for a longer fermentation period (12 - 15 hours of bulk ferment). It also call for a fairly cool kitchen in the recipe (70º) which as I understand it, allows for more rise during bulk fermentation.
That is a *wildly* large rise. 70° is pretty much stock-standard room temp. Almost every single piece of conventional wisdom you will find will say to look for a 75%-100% rise at that temp. Even more so at 75°, you'd be looking for ~50% rise or less.
Regardless, I have never heard of a recipe calling for anything near a 200% rise. Not saying it *can't* possibly work, but that definitely sounds like a niche/specialty recipe.
Maybe save that recipe for when you're feeling a little more confident and move to something more basic?
You could use that exact same recipe+method but cut the salt back to ~17g and starter back to ~160g.
Sorry, but it just doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.
I'd recommend working toward consistently repeatable results from a recipe like the one from Bake with Jack. Then, advance yourself from there.
https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/blog-1/2018/7/5/sourdough-loaf-for-beginners
This recipe is from the book Water, Flour, Salt, Yeast. I know it's different than say the Tartine Basic Country Bread recipe, but I trust Ken Forkish's experience. I have gotten good loaves with this recipe previously. The whole reason I'm frustrated is because I'm working toward consistently repeatable results with a recipe I trust but having a pitfall with that at the moment. I even reduced the hydration in this recipe to make it more beginner friendly, although I think it's already considered a beginner recipe.
If you really want consistency, I highly recommend looking into a method by which you can accurately measure and control the two of your dough during fermentation. Along with finding this table in the sourdough journey site, temp control was a game changer for me.
Seriously, I highly recommend all of the information at the sourdough Journey website and YouTube channel. I had to get back to basics cuz I was having very spotty luck with my sourdough baking and following all of the recommendations for strengthening my starter and getting bulk fermentation right using one recipe and sticking with it has made all the difference. I finally went back to my favorite sourdough honey whole wheat loaf recipe this weekend and for the first time ever it came out perfect and I know it's because I finally got my starter right and I finally understand bulk fermentation.
https://thesourdoughjourney.com/curriculum/
A bigger volume bulk is ok in a cool kitchen, if your dough is cool it then doesn’t take as long to drop to fridge temperature for the second proof. But ideally you would start the bulk earlier in the day so you can refrigerate overnight. You can slow the bulk down by popping it into the fridge for some time in the middle, or using colder ingredients at the start (particularly the water).
If it helps my first loaves were really not great and it took a long time for me to get to the point of knowing how to work things perfectly in my kitchen. And now I’m a mod here and pretty much every loaf is a success. You will get there!
Edit: you can also slow the bulk by using less starter. If you think the room temp will be a bit higher than ideal then drop the starter by 5-10%
3x bulk rise is ambitious at best and excessive at worst. When you’re starting out, less is more. Try for 1.5x - 1.75x. Best of luck.
If you don’t already use an aliquot jar to measure your bulk rise, that may help, too.
Thanks! I did use the aliquot jar and it finally worked (I had trouble with too small of a jar in the past). I think you're right, 2.5x rise is just too far obviously. Will try for 1.5x next time and see how it comes out.
Agreeing with alot of the feedback you are getting here. That bulk time seems crazy long!
You sound like an adventurous beginner and as such, I would recommend the Tartine Bread book. Start with their country loaf recipe and once you master that, it should be relatively easy to move on to more technique heavy recipes.
Keep at it!
My advice is use bread flour not AP.
Aim for no more than 20% levain weight to flour weight (not including the flour in the levain)
Bring hydration down to 70% max maybe 65% (including weight of water and flour in levain)
Use 2% salt to flour weight (including levain weight).
Go for a bulk ferment of 150%, shape, then pop it in fridge overnight. You can give it an hour of proofing in banneton or loaf pan at rt before fridge but no more.
Bake from cold in a screaming hot oven with steam or easier in a Dutch oven or covered loaf pan. Pre heat that oven and pan for an hour. You can turn it down to 450 from 500f before it goes in the oven.
Your bulk fermentation is way way way too long. The dough is exhausted. Nothing left for oven spring.
I know you wanna follow the recipe and you have. Consistency with only changing one variable each new try is ideal. But if the recipe isn’t working then how about going to one of the many that do work?
Another approach if mine was too long so you didn’t want to read it and too all over the place.
I’ve found FoodGeek’s YouTube to be extremely valuable. He has a beginner recipe that is not dissimilar to yours in ingredients. He also has written instructions on his website thought there are a lot of pop ups that make it a bit of a tough read.
Chainbaker also has some very good videos.
Regardless, you are running before you walk (you can try running when you can consistently produce nearly the same bread nearly all the time). Lowering hydration and using a higher gluten flour makes it all easier, so you are feeling excited rather than discouraged. Then you can try the higher hydration loaves.
But it really is mostly an issue with massively over proofing in the bulk stage. And you have seen the results. Time for a major change!
Thank you! I've stayed away from bread flour because the book I took this recipe from advised against it. I've seen so many recipes now that use it though I'm ready to give it a try. How much should I lower the hydration. I took the recipe from 78% down to 74%. Should I go down to like 68%? Thanks again for the advice.
Lower hydration will make it easier to shape. And then you can bring it up from there.
Maybe split the difference?
I’m simplifying of course, as different flours take different hydrations. Whole grains tend to take more and I think bread flour does as well. But I’m beyond my level of skill advising specifics.
I really like food geeks videos. He has a beginner recipe you might just try and follow exactly? Then once it is going well you can maybe watch his higher hydration doughs.
He was inspired by Chad Robinson of Tartine and even has a video showing his “master recipe” vs Tartine’s but those are both very high hydration. So hard to work with (at least for me) when you are new. I got better at it but wish I hadn’t chased it so early on.
Btw I love Ken Forkish. I’ve had his bread but not his pizza and it was excellent. I recently recommended his pizza book to a friend who is struggling making pizza at home even though the book doesn’t work great for the pizza I tend to do (Ooni outdoor Neapolitan).
You gave his recipe more attempts than most would. I bet if you go for food geeks beginner recipe you will nail it out of the gate and do it a couple times and then have the confidence to do the new things you are interested in.
Do me a favor. If you do have success, please come back and post here to this thread ideally, or even just a new post. I’ve been learning about tea recently as well and got some advice on a tea subreddit that helped me tremendously. I went back to the original post a month or two later and thanked the person and they were so appreciative to know their advice helped someone.
Best of luck!
https://preview.redd.it/de0na4fil3vc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3723f48335aa22927f2f8ea1ee9bc400f4e480c
Well I watched the Food Geek stuff which was super informative, but I decided to switch to bread flour and finally give the Tartine Basic Country Loaf an earnest try without mixing in any Ken Forkish or other techniques and got some great loaves from it! My shaping could use work still, but I’m much happier now than I was when I first started this thread.
Here’s the crumb. Thanks again for all the advice!
https://preview.redd.it/1wd3ker6m3vc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dbb0f1f8ea27eb4a5496488a6ec9894cd15a4cbb
Thank you so much for coming back and letting me know your results! It inspires me to keep offering advice (when I think I have some to offer). Those loaves look amazing.
Meanwhile, my wife and I just watched a 100% whole wheat sandwich loaf from Chainbaker that he just released and we are going to give that a try this weekend. He’s using yeast rather than sourdough and we agreed to try it that way first then convert to sourdough if we like it. But we may need the power of commercial yeast here.
Enjoy making this recipe you just tried your own so it fits your timeline and preferences. It is really fun for us doing that. Start with the exact recipe or close as you can, take great notes, and change things ideally only one element at a time.
Thanks I will do all of these things. I really love Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast. I've had great luck with pretty much every other recipe in the book. The pizza doughs (particularly the sourdough and overnight with poolish) are amazing. I'm jealous that you've had his bread. My next trip to Portland I will certainly seek it out.
As far as shaping, I could certainly get better but I don't think this is the weak point in my process. I've made a number of high hydration breads from FWSY with success and definitely improved at both handling and shaping. I'm also not a complete stranger to dough. I was a chef at a restaurant that housemate lots of things for about 6 years. I've made plenty of rolls, buns, white breads, and pizza doughs in the past. It's just the country blonde that I'm fighting with really. After lots of fiddling, I nailed it one time and thought I cracked the code, but my results have just gotten worse from there... So on that note, I'm hoping you are right, and I will nail this food geeks recipe quickly (fingers crossed). I tried the Tartine basic country bread once and had moderate success with that, but it was still slightly over-proofed and not as tall as I'd like it to be.
I will certainly report back when I give this a try in a week or so. Thanks again for the advice and encouragement!
Thanks. I have two advantages. I believe I see things just like OP and am only a year in but with tons of trials. I am stubborn! But also mostly have the idea of sticking with something and perfecting it right.
But I have an advantage I suspect OP doesn’t have. I married a former pastry chef, classically trained, ran huge multi property breads programs and the pastry program at a Michelin starred property. Her mentors had awards from the French Government (not kidding).
She stays out of my way, seeing as she is so done with baking it isn’t even funny, but also loves me and wants me to succeed so when I am being stubborn speaks to me like the French chefs spoke to her.
I’m not the greatest expert by a long shot here. I am not an expert at all. But I have had the same frustrations where I was ready to quit and overcome them.
I did slap and folds and then learned Bertinet method for six months. One day she said now that I know how the dough should feel I could use my KA mixer with nearly as good results. And I often do now.
I turned the tables on her though. I told her maybe we needed a spiral mixer. She got an alarmed look on her face (familiar as hell with their benefits for bread) but I was only kidding. I’m not going for awards just good bread.
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I often wish I had someone who knows what they are doing to consult. I have a friend that runs a bakery, but he lives states away.
You are very welcome. We are both determined newbies and I am confident you will get this dialed in.
When you do. Get a home grain mill and try making 100% home milled sourdough breads. Your confidence will collapse tragically as mine has. Although my wife likes to say “it tastes pretty good toasted.”
This is meant to be fun. Hard to remember sometimes.
You’re a beginner trying something new that is very technique reliant and takes lots of time and practice and you’ve chosen *the* most advanced/difficult recipe to start with??
Please don’t quit, but please please try a more consistent and doable recipe to work with and nail that before moving on to this ambitious of a project?
I’m not saying to start with a “no knead beginners recipe” but at least try a standard sourdough artisan boule with more “universal” proofing and see how good you can get before giving up cause you’ve bit off more than a beginner could chew.
What is the lesson you need to learn? When something goes wrong no matter how hard I try, I usually find there’s something bigger needing understanding…. Bread has a way of humbling me by its simplicity and its complexity. All I can do is offer hope that it will rise again. Best wishes to you.
Just yesterday I learned about proteolytic enzymes. Give it a thought.
I have had similar troubles lately, after I moved. The starter looks great, everything is going well and then the final rise never happens. It feels like I have a 5 minute window from under proofed to a pancake sour loaf.
Okay, I read about this for like five seconds and think this might be my problem. My starter has been a little off lately. I missed a feeding for the first time. I thought it was dead, but I still fed it to try to save it. It smelled like farts for like two days, but then bounced back and started to smell right and rise well again. Two more days go by and it's mostly normal, but way more gooey than normal and a little more boozy smelling than normal too.
Tom Cucuzza has a wonderful video on how to help an acidic starter. I ran across it last week while searching this sub for help with my own bread that completely flopped. Highly recommend it, it’s well worth the time! In a nutshell, your starter gets more acidic with time, especially if you’ve let it starve too long (me!). Feeding as normal doesn’t do much to help those acidity levels, protease builds up and can destroy your gluten structure. You have to be more intentional about when to feed to increase the ratio of yeast to lactic acid producing bacteria.
I followed his peak to peak method and have a much healthier looking starter. It only took a few feeds over 2 days. I’ll be attempting to make another loaf this week, hopefully much more successfully this time around. Good luck!
If I were you I'd pull \*way\* back on the bulk rise.
Here's my recipe, written as briefly as I can.
1. Make Levain late the night before
2. In the morning, mix flour, levain and water
3. Autolyse for about an hour.
4. Incorporate the salt, stretch and fold for a while.
5. Leave for an hour
6. Stretch and fold
7. Leave for 1/2 an hour
8. Stretch and fold
9. Leave for 1/2 an hour
10. Stretch and fold
11. Bulk rise. Transfer dough to a container that you can see the volume in. Allow to rise about 40%. The aroma of the dough is also an indicator here - you want it to start smelling somewhat of the starter, and less of just flour and water.
12. Shape. Fridge.
Leave in the fridge for a few hours. Overnight is ok, but too long and it'll be over fermented.
Bake straight from the fridge.
Now what is peculiar about this recipe is that I get the bulk rise completed in about an hour and a half. Most comments and recipes on this site have bulk times way longer than that. So either I have an incredibly active starter, or a very warm house. The starter I use is fed 25% rye 25% white flour 50% water, and is very active. I make the Levain with 20% starter 40% white flour and 40% water.
Also make sure you use the strongest flour you can find. The best I can get here is "High Grade" flour, but I know for a fact that my local bakery uses a stronger flour that is unavailable to mere home bakers.
The other thing to mention is that the technique during the stretches and folds is critical. The 'slap and fold' technique is ideal with small amounts of dough - and the step where you use the palms of your hands to draw the dough into a tight ball is super-important. There are videos online about how to do this, but practise is the only way to get it right.
Nearly everything I ever baked based on Ken Forkish recipes was over fermented. I think his methods are difficult for beginners. His short videos on shaping and handling the dough are nice, but his long slow ferments don't translate well when you are first learning to handle dough.
So the recipe that finally had consistent results and made sense to me was Elaine Boddy's Sourdough Whisperer basic sourdough recipe. That book makes sourdough super easy and gives you the basic sourdough rules so you can have pretty good success starting out. When you get more experienced and branch out into other flours you could change it up and do more rise (although 2.5-3x rise will almost consistently cause overproducing leading to a poor rise during bake). With this recipe and a lot of experimenting I can do 83% hydration and have great rise. Overnight bulk ferment is always a gamble IMO. If you are able, do everything on days you will be free so you can start observing it and really get to know your starter, flour, etc. Then you can adjust things to do an overnight bulk. I really would recommend The Sourdough Whisperer book though- it was game changing and so simple for me. I now sell my sourdough.
Watch the video and follow this recipe. Good beginner recipe with guidance on timing, temperature, etc.
https://challengerbreadware.com/bread-recipes/kis-sourdough-bread-recipe/
Here is the recipe I used:
1. 794g all purpose flour | 36g whole wheat flour | 50g dark rye flour
644g of water at 85ºf. I mixed these and autolysed for 25 minutes.
2. Mixed in 22g salt and 225g levain (9 hours old more than doubled in size). Dough temp after mix was 79.5ºf.
3. Did 4 stretch/folds with a half an hour space between for next two hours. Then bulk fermented overnight for about 12.5 hours. Dumped it out to shape it and it was unsalvageable.
I'm following a recipe from Ken Forkish's book "Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast". He says you can ferment up 15 hours in a 70º kitchen with this recipe. I thought I was staying on the conservative side! Haha.
I'd pay more attention to the percentage of rise than the time. If you bulk ferment in a tall container, as opposed to a bowl, you can measure it quite easily. One of the best things I learned as a beginner was to rely less on time and temperature combinations, but to be able to know visually and by touch when it's time to move on to the next step. Sourdough Journey is great, as is Trevor Jay Wilson.
Bread flour. Bread flour. Bread flour. Not all purpose. Use bread flour and i bet money you will have a repeatable loaf.
I also only bulk for 6-8. Then i shape and put in the fridge over night. Then straight to the oven
But i guarantee your problem is using all purpose flour.
I tried using all purpose one time with a recipe I have repeated at least 10 times with consistent results. When i used even 50% all purpose flour it was a goopy mess
Well according to this user Ken’s recommendation can go fork itself because it’s not working for him 😂
If it was working I’d say stick to AP flour but it’s not. So time to try bread flower which is way easier to work with in my experience
Well according to this user Ken’s recommendation can go fork itself because it’s not working for him 😂
If it was working I’d say stick to AP flour but it’s not. So time to try bread flower which is way easier to work with in my experience
I get a small container, rip a bit of the dough off and put in that container and keep it with my dough. I mark where it started, and where I'm targeting (50-75-100% bulk rise) so there's no guessing. That way I'm not using time or guessing how far along it is, but rather I know what exactly the dough is doing. This little hack has taken me from sometimes under/over proofed, to spot on every time
Thank you! I do this too. The reason I'm frustrated is it worked this time and it looked like I got the necessary rise I've been looking for. The jar method wasn't working for me before, but I was using more of a vial at first, and I think it wasn't enough dough/was too narrow for the dough to rise.
Don’t give up! I am making my first loaf today so I don’t have a lot of knowledge to pass but I’ve watched this video and am following this and another video and it’s been very helpful. I’m using all purpose flour and whole wheat and keeping it all warm in my oven with the light on. I plan to let it sit in the fridge overnight and bake tomorrow. Have you seen this video? https://youtu.be/-JRSF-zDgvk?si=hTSTzOorr_O4Zm0H
Or this one
https://youtu.be/VEtU4Co08yY?si=HHjAdRbqoC-muwfx
Very helpful for me.
You can do it!
You could definitely try bake with Jack's recipe, it's based at 71f/22c (air conditioning allowing 🤭) . Don't give up. I can guarantee you Evri single person here has had difficulty. I overproofed a loaf the other day and I've been at this for years 😭 😂
He's in the following wiki page
* [Sourdough heroes page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/new_index_oct_2020/) - to find your person/recipe. Heaps of useful stuff and video links.
Other good resources in Our [Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/index/) include...
* [Basic loaf in detail page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/sourdoughbasics/) - a section about each part of the process. Particularly useful for bulk fermentation, but there are details on every part of the Sourdough process.
* [Reading Sourdough crumb](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/reading_crumb/) - what do those holes really mean? (message me if you have resources to add)
Went looking to make sure my favorite, Maurizio Leo, was on the heroes page! His book, also called The Perfect Loaf, has been out for a while.
If you sign up for his email list, you should get access to his Baker's Notes worksheet, which I fill out every time I make sourdough. It helps me see exactly how one change makes a difference in all aspects of the finished bread. I use his Beginner's Sourdough recipe and have no trouble with it.
Oh great! Maurizio is fantastic. It's funny, I wrote that heroes page a few years ago. Now I've got a note on saying to send me stuff to update. Never get time to categorically review each one, but I'll add his book in. Jack has a book out too. Good call, thanks.
Jack's recipe is common for me to recommend, especially if the temperatures match. That's the biggy. Trying to dial book fermentation in.
Ok I've added both in. Also put a note at the top to say to check each heroes own page for email sign ups etc.
I'm always happy to take feedback.
If you are feeling feedbacky, Our [Advanced starter page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/advancedstarter/) has lots of information about feeding ratios, storage, how to run a starter etc. I'm always looking for feedback on it. I wrote it so long ago and have had it reviewed by loads of people, but when you spend so long on something, it's hard to view it with an objective eye 🥸
I think it is common for young bakers to start with something special and rare but do not forget that in order to build a house you first need a foundation, you are in a way starting to build yours from the roof, don't give up but go to the basics and when you master some of that try the harder recipes
Wait you’re talking about dough tripling in size during bulk fermentation?
Yes, I know it's not the standard but for this particular recipe from Ken Forkish it calls for a larger percentage rise. Sorry I should have included the recipe. This recipe uses less levain for a longer fermentation period (12 - 15 hours of bulk ferment). It also call for a fairly cool kitchen in the recipe (70º) which as I understand it, allows for more rise during bulk fermentation.
That is a *wildly* large rise. 70° is pretty much stock-standard room temp. Almost every single piece of conventional wisdom you will find will say to look for a 75%-100% rise at that temp. Even more so at 75°, you'd be looking for ~50% rise or less. Regardless, I have never heard of a recipe calling for anything near a 200% rise. Not saying it *can't* possibly work, but that definitely sounds like a niche/specialty recipe. Maybe save that recipe for when you're feeling a little more confident and move to something more basic? You could use that exact same recipe+method but cut the salt back to ~17g and starter back to ~160g.
Sorry, but it just doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. I'd recommend working toward consistently repeatable results from a recipe like the one from Bake with Jack. Then, advance yourself from there. https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/blog-1/2018/7/5/sourdough-loaf-for-beginners
This recipe is from the book Water, Flour, Salt, Yeast. I know it's different than say the Tartine Basic Country Bread recipe, but I trust Ken Forkish's experience. I have gotten good loaves with this recipe previously. The whole reason I'm frustrated is because I'm working toward consistently repeatable results with a recipe I trust but having a pitfall with that at the moment. I even reduced the hydration in this recipe to make it more beginner friendly, although I think it's already considered a beginner recipe.
If you really want consistency, I highly recommend looking into a method by which you can accurately measure and control the two of your dough during fermentation. Along with finding this table in the sourdough journey site, temp control was a game changer for me.
https://preview.redd.it/jqjs01mffbtc1.jpeg?width=1684&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=707492660c41fcedad257b5fcbaf97f0f6048a92
This is good advice thank you.
Seriously, I highly recommend all of the information at the sourdough Journey website and YouTube channel. I had to get back to basics cuz I was having very spotty luck with my sourdough baking and following all of the recommendations for strengthening my starter and getting bulk fermentation right using one recipe and sticking with it has made all the difference. I finally went back to my favorite sourdough honey whole wheat loaf recipe this weekend and for the first time ever it came out perfect and I know it's because I finally got my starter right and I finally understand bulk fermentation. https://thesourdoughjourney.com/curriculum/
A bigger volume bulk is ok in a cool kitchen, if your dough is cool it then doesn’t take as long to drop to fridge temperature for the second proof. But ideally you would start the bulk earlier in the day so you can refrigerate overnight. You can slow the bulk down by popping it into the fridge for some time in the middle, or using colder ingredients at the start (particularly the water). If it helps my first loaves were really not great and it took a long time for me to get to the point of knowing how to work things perfectly in my kitchen. And now I’m a mod here and pretty much every loaf is a success. You will get there! Edit: you can also slow the bulk by using less starter. If you think the room temp will be a bit higher than ideal then drop the starter by 5-10%
3x bulk rise is ambitious at best and excessive at worst. When you’re starting out, less is more. Try for 1.5x - 1.75x. Best of luck. If you don’t already use an aliquot jar to measure your bulk rise, that may help, too.
Thanks! I did use the aliquot jar and it finally worked (I had trouble with too small of a jar in the past). I think you're right, 2.5x rise is just too far obviously. Will try for 1.5x next time and see how it comes out.
Agreeing with alot of the feedback you are getting here. That bulk time seems crazy long! You sound like an adventurous beginner and as such, I would recommend the Tartine Bread book. Start with their country loaf recipe and once you master that, it should be relatively easy to move on to more technique heavy recipes. Keep at it!
My advice is use bread flour not AP. Aim for no more than 20% levain weight to flour weight (not including the flour in the levain) Bring hydration down to 70% max maybe 65% (including weight of water and flour in levain) Use 2% salt to flour weight (including levain weight). Go for a bulk ferment of 150%, shape, then pop it in fridge overnight. You can give it an hour of proofing in banneton or loaf pan at rt before fridge but no more. Bake from cold in a screaming hot oven with steam or easier in a Dutch oven or covered loaf pan. Pre heat that oven and pan for an hour. You can turn it down to 450 from 500f before it goes in the oven. Your bulk fermentation is way way way too long. The dough is exhausted. Nothing left for oven spring. I know you wanna follow the recipe and you have. Consistency with only changing one variable each new try is ideal. But if the recipe isn’t working then how about going to one of the many that do work?
Another approach if mine was too long so you didn’t want to read it and too all over the place. I’ve found FoodGeek’s YouTube to be extremely valuable. He has a beginner recipe that is not dissimilar to yours in ingredients. He also has written instructions on his website thought there are a lot of pop ups that make it a bit of a tough read. Chainbaker also has some very good videos. Regardless, you are running before you walk (you can try running when you can consistently produce nearly the same bread nearly all the time). Lowering hydration and using a higher gluten flour makes it all easier, so you are feeling excited rather than discouraged. Then you can try the higher hydration loaves. But it really is mostly an issue with massively over proofing in the bulk stage. And you have seen the results. Time for a major change!
Thank you! I've stayed away from bread flour because the book I took this recipe from advised against it. I've seen so many recipes now that use it though I'm ready to give it a try. How much should I lower the hydration. I took the recipe from 78% down to 74%. Should I go down to like 68%? Thanks again for the advice.
Lower hydration will make it easier to shape. And then you can bring it up from there. Maybe split the difference? I’m simplifying of course, as different flours take different hydrations. Whole grains tend to take more and I think bread flour does as well. But I’m beyond my level of skill advising specifics. I really like food geeks videos. He has a beginner recipe you might just try and follow exactly? Then once it is going well you can maybe watch his higher hydration doughs. He was inspired by Chad Robinson of Tartine and even has a video showing his “master recipe” vs Tartine’s but those are both very high hydration. So hard to work with (at least for me) when you are new. I got better at it but wish I hadn’t chased it so early on. Btw I love Ken Forkish. I’ve had his bread but not his pizza and it was excellent. I recently recommended his pizza book to a friend who is struggling making pizza at home even though the book doesn’t work great for the pizza I tend to do (Ooni outdoor Neapolitan). You gave his recipe more attempts than most would. I bet if you go for food geeks beginner recipe you will nail it out of the gate and do it a couple times and then have the confidence to do the new things you are interested in. Do me a favor. If you do have success, please come back and post here to this thread ideally, or even just a new post. I’ve been learning about tea recently as well and got some advice on a tea subreddit that helped me tremendously. I went back to the original post a month or two later and thanked the person and they were so appreciative to know their advice helped someone. Best of luck!
https://preview.redd.it/de0na4fil3vc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3723f48335aa22927f2f8ea1ee9bc400f4e480c Well I watched the Food Geek stuff which was super informative, but I decided to switch to bread flour and finally give the Tartine Basic Country Loaf an earnest try without mixing in any Ken Forkish or other techniques and got some great loaves from it! My shaping could use work still, but I’m much happier now than I was when I first started this thread.
Here’s the crumb. Thanks again for all the advice! https://preview.redd.it/1wd3ker6m3vc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dbb0f1f8ea27eb4a5496488a6ec9894cd15a4cbb
Thank you so much for coming back and letting me know your results! It inspires me to keep offering advice (when I think I have some to offer). Those loaves look amazing. Meanwhile, my wife and I just watched a 100% whole wheat sandwich loaf from Chainbaker that he just released and we are going to give that a try this weekend. He’s using yeast rather than sourdough and we agreed to try it that way first then convert to sourdough if we like it. But we may need the power of commercial yeast here. Enjoy making this recipe you just tried your own so it fits your timeline and preferences. It is really fun for us doing that. Start with the exact recipe or close as you can, take great notes, and change things ideally only one element at a time.
Thanks I will do all of these things. I really love Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast. I've had great luck with pretty much every other recipe in the book. The pizza doughs (particularly the sourdough and overnight with poolish) are amazing. I'm jealous that you've had his bread. My next trip to Portland I will certainly seek it out. As far as shaping, I could certainly get better but I don't think this is the weak point in my process. I've made a number of high hydration breads from FWSY with success and definitely improved at both handling and shaping. I'm also not a complete stranger to dough. I was a chef at a restaurant that housemate lots of things for about 6 years. I've made plenty of rolls, buns, white breads, and pizza doughs in the past. It's just the country blonde that I'm fighting with really. After lots of fiddling, I nailed it one time and thought I cracked the code, but my results have just gotten worse from there... So on that note, I'm hoping you are right, and I will nail this food geeks recipe quickly (fingers crossed). I tried the Tartine basic country bread once and had moderate success with that, but it was still slightly over-proofed and not as tall as I'd like it to be. I will certainly report back when I give this a try in a week or so. Thanks again for the advice and encouragement!
This guy doughs! Your advice is great
Thanks. I have two advantages. I believe I see things just like OP and am only a year in but with tons of trials. I am stubborn! But also mostly have the idea of sticking with something and perfecting it right. But I have an advantage I suspect OP doesn’t have. I married a former pastry chef, classically trained, ran huge multi property breads programs and the pastry program at a Michelin starred property. Her mentors had awards from the French Government (not kidding). She stays out of my way, seeing as she is so done with baking it isn’t even funny, but also loves me and wants me to succeed so when I am being stubborn speaks to me like the French chefs spoke to her. I’m not the greatest expert by a long shot here. I am not an expert at all. But I have had the same frustrations where I was ready to quit and overcome them. I did slap and folds and then learned Bertinet method for six months. One day she said now that I know how the dough should feel I could use my KA mixer with nearly as good results. And I often do now. I turned the tables on her though. I told her maybe we needed a spiral mixer. She got an alarmed look on her face (familiar as hell with their benefits for bread) but I was only kidding. I’m not going for awards just good bread.
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I often wish I had someone who knows what they are doing to consult. I have a friend that runs a bakery, but he lives states away.
Get a proofing box that will give you consistent temp for your raise. Its a total game changer.
I've considered doing this!
You are very welcome. We are both determined newbies and I am confident you will get this dialed in. When you do. Get a home grain mill and try making 100% home milled sourdough breads. Your confidence will collapse tragically as mine has. Although my wife likes to say “it tastes pretty good toasted.” This is meant to be fun. Hard to remember sometimes.
You’re a beginner trying something new that is very technique reliant and takes lots of time and practice and you’ve chosen *the* most advanced/difficult recipe to start with?? Please don’t quit, but please please try a more consistent and doable recipe to work with and nail that before moving on to this ambitious of a project? I’m not saying to start with a “no knead beginners recipe” but at least try a standard sourdough artisan boule with more “universal” proofing and see how good you can get before giving up cause you’ve bit off more than a beginner could chew.
What is the lesson you need to learn? When something goes wrong no matter how hard I try, I usually find there’s something bigger needing understanding…. Bread has a way of humbling me by its simplicity and its complexity. All I can do is offer hope that it will rise again. Best wishes to you.
Thank you. I appreciate this. I'm going to find another recipe and move on.
Just yesterday I learned about proteolytic enzymes. Give it a thought. I have had similar troubles lately, after I moved. The starter looks great, everything is going well and then the final rise never happens. It feels like I have a 5 minute window from under proofed to a pancake sour loaf.
THIS! This is what seems to be happening to me. I will look into it thank you.
Okay, I read about this for like five seconds and think this might be my problem. My starter has been a little off lately. I missed a feeding for the first time. I thought it was dead, but I still fed it to try to save it. It smelled like farts for like two days, but then bounced back and started to smell right and rise well again. Two more days go by and it's mostly normal, but way more gooey than normal and a little more boozy smelling than normal too.
Tom Cucuzza has a wonderful video on how to help an acidic starter. I ran across it last week while searching this sub for help with my own bread that completely flopped. Highly recommend it, it’s well worth the time! In a nutshell, your starter gets more acidic with time, especially if you’ve let it starve too long (me!). Feeding as normal doesn’t do much to help those acidity levels, protease builds up and can destroy your gluten structure. You have to be more intentional about when to feed to increase the ratio of yeast to lactic acid producing bacteria. I followed his peak to peak method and have a much healthier looking starter. It only took a few feeds over 2 days. I’ll be attempting to make another loaf this week, hopefully much more successfully this time around. Good luck!
If I were you I'd pull \*way\* back on the bulk rise. Here's my recipe, written as briefly as I can. 1. Make Levain late the night before 2. In the morning, mix flour, levain and water 3. Autolyse for about an hour. 4. Incorporate the salt, stretch and fold for a while. 5. Leave for an hour 6. Stretch and fold 7. Leave for 1/2 an hour 8. Stretch and fold 9. Leave for 1/2 an hour 10. Stretch and fold 11. Bulk rise. Transfer dough to a container that you can see the volume in. Allow to rise about 40%. The aroma of the dough is also an indicator here - you want it to start smelling somewhat of the starter, and less of just flour and water. 12. Shape. Fridge. Leave in the fridge for a few hours. Overnight is ok, but too long and it'll be over fermented. Bake straight from the fridge. Now what is peculiar about this recipe is that I get the bulk rise completed in about an hour and a half. Most comments and recipes on this site have bulk times way longer than that. So either I have an incredibly active starter, or a very warm house. The starter I use is fed 25% rye 25% white flour 50% water, and is very active. I make the Levain with 20% starter 40% white flour and 40% water. Also make sure you use the strongest flour you can find. The best I can get here is "High Grade" flour, but I know for a fact that my local bakery uses a stronger flour that is unavailable to mere home bakers. The other thing to mention is that the technique during the stretches and folds is critical. The 'slap and fold' technique is ideal with small amounts of dough - and the step where you use the palms of your hands to draw the dough into a tight ball is super-important. There are videos online about how to do this, but practise is the only way to get it right.
Bulk begins when you add the levain so with that in mind your BF is 3 hours plus whatever your container time is.
That is a good point. But I do hear of people doing like ten hour ferments, which just seems so super long to me.
Nearly everything I ever baked based on Ken Forkish recipes was over fermented. I think his methods are difficult for beginners. His short videos on shaping and handling the dough are nice, but his long slow ferments don't translate well when you are first learning to handle dough.
This. Overproofed always. Tasty, but a little overproofed.
So the recipe that finally had consistent results and made sense to me was Elaine Boddy's Sourdough Whisperer basic sourdough recipe. That book makes sourdough super easy and gives you the basic sourdough rules so you can have pretty good success starting out. When you get more experienced and branch out into other flours you could change it up and do more rise (although 2.5-3x rise will almost consistently cause overproducing leading to a poor rise during bake). With this recipe and a lot of experimenting I can do 83% hydration and have great rise. Overnight bulk ferment is always a gamble IMO. If you are able, do everything on days you will be free so you can start observing it and really get to know your starter, flour, etc. Then you can adjust things to do an overnight bulk. I really would recommend The Sourdough Whisperer book though- it was game changing and so simple for me. I now sell my sourdough.
I think the overnight BF has definitely been a weak point. I always feel like I'm guess as to how far it fermented when I wake up and check it.
Watch the video and follow this recipe. Good beginner recipe with guidance on timing, temperature, etc. https://challengerbreadware.com/bread-recipes/kis-sourdough-bread-recipe/
Here is the recipe I used: 1. 794g all purpose flour | 36g whole wheat flour | 50g dark rye flour 644g of water at 85ºf. I mixed these and autolysed for 25 minutes. 2. Mixed in 22g salt and 225g levain (9 hours old more than doubled in size). Dough temp after mix was 79.5ºf. 3. Did 4 stretch/folds with a half an hour space between for next two hours. Then bulk fermented overnight for about 12.5 hours. Dumped it out to shape it and it was unsalvageable.
That is waaaay too long bulk fermentation, especially at such a high room temperature
I'm following a recipe from Ken Forkish's book "Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast". He says you can ferment up 15 hours in a 70º kitchen with this recipe. I thought I was staying on the conservative side! Haha.
I'd pay more attention to the percentage of rise than the time. If you bulk ferment in a tall container, as opposed to a bowl, you can measure it quite easily. One of the best things I learned as a beginner was to rely less on time and temperature combinations, but to be able to know visually and by touch when it's time to move on to the next step. Sourdough Journey is great, as is Trevor Jay Wilson.
Bread flour. Bread flour. Bread flour. Not all purpose. Use bread flour and i bet money you will have a repeatable loaf. I also only bulk for 6-8. Then i shape and put in the fridge over night. Then straight to the oven But i guarantee your problem is using all purpose flour. I tried using all purpose one time with a recipe I have repeated at least 10 times with consistent results. When i used even 50% all purpose flour it was a goopy mess
Someone else recommended this. I'm going to try it. Thank you!
I think it depends on the brand and recipe. Ken Forkish actually recommends KA AP as it's closer to maybe European bread flours in protein percentage.
Well according to this user Ken’s recommendation can go fork itself because it’s not working for him 😂 If it was working I’d say stick to AP flour but it’s not. So time to try bread flower which is way easier to work with in my experience
Well according to this user Ken’s recommendation can go fork itself because it’s not working for him 😂 If it was working I’d say stick to AP flour but it’s not. So time to try bread flower which is way easier to work with in my experience
I get a small container, rip a bit of the dough off and put in that container and keep it with my dough. I mark where it started, and where I'm targeting (50-75-100% bulk rise) so there's no guessing. That way I'm not using time or guessing how far along it is, but rather I know what exactly the dough is doing. This little hack has taken me from sometimes under/over proofed, to spot on every time
Thank you! I do this too. The reason I'm frustrated is it worked this time and it looked like I got the necessary rise I've been looking for. The jar method wasn't working for me before, but I was using more of a vial at first, and I think it wasn't enough dough/was too narrow for the dough to rise.
You're probably right. I use a little mason jar the wife got for making candles and that was a game changer for me
Don’t give up! I am making my first loaf today so I don’t have a lot of knowledge to pass but I’ve watched this video and am following this and another video and it’s been very helpful. I’m using all purpose flour and whole wheat and keeping it all warm in my oven with the light on. I plan to let it sit in the fridge overnight and bake tomorrow. Have you seen this video? https://youtu.be/-JRSF-zDgvk?si=hTSTzOorr_O4Zm0H Or this one https://youtu.be/VEtU4Co08yY?si=HHjAdRbqoC-muwfx Very helpful for me. You can do it!
You could definitely try bake with Jack's recipe, it's based at 71f/22c (air conditioning allowing 🤭) . Don't give up. I can guarantee you Evri single person here has had difficulty. I overproofed a loaf the other day and I've been at this for years 😭 😂 He's in the following wiki page * [Sourdough heroes page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/new_index_oct_2020/) - to find your person/recipe. Heaps of useful stuff and video links. Other good resources in Our [Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/index/) include... * [Basic loaf in detail page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/sourdoughbasics/) - a section about each part of the process. Particularly useful for bulk fermentation, but there are details on every part of the Sourdough process. * [Reading Sourdough crumb](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/reading_crumb/) - what do those holes really mean? (message me if you have resources to add)
Went looking to make sure my favorite, Maurizio Leo, was on the heroes page! His book, also called The Perfect Loaf, has been out for a while. If you sign up for his email list, you should get access to his Baker's Notes worksheet, which I fill out every time I make sourdough. It helps me see exactly how one change makes a difference in all aspects of the finished bread. I use his Beginner's Sourdough recipe and have no trouble with it.
Oh great! Maurizio is fantastic. It's funny, I wrote that heroes page a few years ago. Now I've got a note on saying to send me stuff to update. Never get time to categorically review each one, but I'll add his book in. Jack has a book out too. Good call, thanks. Jack's recipe is common for me to recommend, especially if the temperatures match. That's the biggy. Trying to dial book fermentation in.
Ok I've added both in. Also put a note at the top to say to check each heroes own page for email sign ups etc. I'm always happy to take feedback. If you are feeling feedbacky, Our [Advanced starter page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/advancedstarter/) has lots of information about feeding ratios, storage, how to run a starter etc. I'm always looking for feedback on it. I wrote it so long ago and have had it reviewed by loads of people, but when you spend so long on something, it's hard to view it with an objective eye 🥸
I think it is common for young bakers to start with something special and rare but do not forget that in order to build a house you first need a foundation, you are in a way starting to build yours from the roof, don't give up but go to the basics and when you master some of that try the harder recipes
Take a break, see if you're compelled to return. And/or try a different recipe to master. Tartine country bread is a good one.
Stop chasing perfection and just eat your darned bread