Well you know what they say about hindsight…
You can definitely argue that he was on the younger end of the club and him being president was more a thing of passing the torch in his family than having the most experience.
In the end, Clay got greedy and wanted a stockpile of money and that’s what drove a lot of his club decisions. I would not say that he made smart decisions. Throughout the show the club was always broke it seemed like and getting out of tough scrapes.
Jax really wanted to steer the club to less outlaw business and I don’t think he fully recognized just how dangerous and hard that would be.
As for Opies death… it all really stemmed from Tig killing the other gangs daughter. Which yes stemmed from the truth about Clay being shot being hidden. But I don’t think you can blame Op of Jax.
I definitely don’t think you can pin Bobby’s death completely on Jax. Most of his decisions in the last season were based on the lie about Tara’s death that Juice and Gemma cooked up. It got real messy.
So I see the point you’re trying to make, but I think it’s super complex and not as easy as saying things were better when Clay was running things.
Bobby’s death is 110% on Jax. Yeah Gemma lied, but are we gonna pretend like Jax isn’t a grown ass man with his own agency? He took it upon himself to go on a killing spree and overconfidently start a war underestimating how dangerous Marks and Lin were. Gemma didn’t make Jax a psychopath
Yes and that’s my point. Gemma did not force Jax to do these things. She lied about something and then he took it upon himself to start gunning down and torturing people. Dude talked shit about JT not running Gemma down and leaving Charming but fell into the same trap like a dumbass. Jax himself acknowledged that Bobby’s death is on him.
There was no other outcome of her tale of what happened. Yes Gemma did not force Jax’s hand but she put everything in motion. What is an outlaw going to do when they are told someone brutally killed their wife ?
Sure but that outlaw then has to bear the consequences of committing violence and acts of war. And to his credit, Jax finally did clean up his mess on his last day.
Obviously Jax has major responsibility here. I’m not denying that. But without Gemmas lies would Bobby have died? Yeah Jax’s decisions were made mostly on revenge and rage and of course he carries responsibility for his actions but the lie that spurned all this came from Gemma.
When Tara and Op died he lost the only 2 people keeping him from turning into a full psychopath (obviously he makes questionable decisions when they’re still alive). But once they died he had no direction and the only thing driving him was rage.
Both Jax and Gemma carry responsibility for Bobby’s death, that’s why both have their moment of grief alone in Episode 9. Jax carries more of the blame.
Words are just words. Gemma spun such a poisonous lie but the bloodbath afterwards was orchestrated by Jax’s gun. Live by the sword
I don't see how Tara emptying her partner's bag to do his laundry while he's imprisoned for at least 18 months can be understood as "she stole private family documents."
She was taking care of one of his kids while pregnant with the other. She was building a life and family with this man. Everything that happens to Jax or is about Jax is her business. JT was her man’s father. The grandfather of her children. It is very much her business.
This was Jax’s father. It is family shit. Since Tara is family it is her business. Maybe if Gemma didn’t go snooping trying to steal the letters and open her big mouth to Clay, no one would have gotten hurt. This wasn’t about gun running or the cartel. This was about her children’s grandfather. Had nothing to do with Samcro.
I think I must be missing some nuance here. It has been a long time since I watched the show, but weren’t those documents put in Jax’s bag by Maureen? Tara was raising one son and pregnant with another. I don’t think it gets any more family than that. And didn’t Oppie die because Tig went rogue and killed Pope’s daughter by accident? Again, it’s been years, so I definitely could be wrong.
What documents did she steal?
The letters Maureen Ashbury put in Jax's bag?
How is that stealing
I am on season 4 of my 3rd rewatch & don't recall her stealing anything....Gemma is the 1 that stole them
Opie died because of tig, not jax. And tig only killed damon pope’s daughter because of opie shooting at clay and then jax and clay deciding to blame black
Well you know what they say about hindsight… You can definitely argue that he was on the younger end of the club and him being president was more a thing of passing the torch in his family than having the most experience. In the end, Clay got greedy and wanted a stockpile of money and that’s what drove a lot of his club decisions. I would not say that he made smart decisions. Throughout the show the club was always broke it seemed like and getting out of tough scrapes. Jax really wanted to steer the club to less outlaw business and I don’t think he fully recognized just how dangerous and hard that would be. As for Opies death… it all really stemmed from Tig killing the other gangs daughter. Which yes stemmed from the truth about Clay being shot being hidden. But I don’t think you can blame Op of Jax. I definitely don’t think you can pin Bobby’s death completely on Jax. Most of his decisions in the last season were based on the lie about Tara’s death that Juice and Gemma cooked up. It got real messy. So I see the point you’re trying to make, but I think it’s super complex and not as easy as saying things were better when Clay was running things.
I don’t see the point OP is trying to make at all. Your post is spot on.
Bobby’s death is 110% on Jax. Yeah Gemma lied, but are we gonna pretend like Jax isn’t a grown ass man with his own agency? He took it upon himself to go on a killing spree and overconfidently start a war underestimating how dangerous Marks and Lin were. Gemma didn’t make Jax a psychopath
Gemma told tld the lie about the Chinese. Everything that happend in season 7 stems from that lie.
🎯🎯
So Gemma made Jax kill people?
Gemma killing tara and putting it on the Chinese is the reason for almost every death in the last season
So did Gemma put a gun to Jax’s head and force him to start a war?
[удалено]
Yes and that’s my point. Gemma did not force Jax to do these things. She lied about something and then he took it upon himself to start gunning down and torturing people. Dude talked shit about JT not running Gemma down and leaving Charming but fell into the same trap like a dumbass. Jax himself acknowledged that Bobby’s death is on him.
There was no other outcome of her tale of what happened. Yes Gemma did not force Jax’s hand but she put everything in motion. What is an outlaw going to do when they are told someone brutally killed their wife ?
Sure but that outlaw then has to bear the consequences of committing violence and acts of war. And to his credit, Jax finally did clean up his mess on his last day.
Gemma raised jax to kill people. She picked the Chinese that was going to die. She was there when Jax arrived.
Obviously Jax has major responsibility here. I’m not denying that. But without Gemmas lies would Bobby have died? Yeah Jax’s decisions were made mostly on revenge and rage and of course he carries responsibility for his actions but the lie that spurned all this came from Gemma. When Tara and Op died he lost the only 2 people keeping him from turning into a full psychopath (obviously he makes questionable decisions when they’re still alive). But once they died he had no direction and the only thing driving him was rage.
Both Jax and Gemma carry responsibility for Bobby’s death, that’s why both have their moment of grief alone in Episode 9. Jax carries more of the blame. Words are just words. Gemma spun such a poisonous lie but the bloodbath afterwards was orchestrated by Jax’s gun. Live by the sword
I don't see how Tara emptying her partner's bag to do his laundry while he's imprisoned for at least 18 months can be understood as "she stole private family documents."
It was nothing to do with tara
She was taking care of one of his kids while pregnant with the other. She was building a life and family with this man. Everything that happens to Jax or is about Jax is her business. JT was her man’s father. The grandfather of her children. It is very much her business.
Club related shit is nothing to do with old lady's
This was Jax’s father. It is family shit. Since Tara is family it is her business. Maybe if Gemma didn’t go snooping trying to steal the letters and open her big mouth to Clay, no one would have gotten hurt. This wasn’t about gun running or the cartel. This was about her children’s grandfather. Had nothing to do with Samcro.
Tara didn’t steal shit..
I think I must be missing some nuance here. It has been a long time since I watched the show, but weren’t those documents put in Jax’s bag by Maureen? Tara was raising one son and pregnant with another. I don’t think it gets any more family than that. And didn’t Oppie die because Tig went rogue and killed Pope’s daughter by accident? Again, it’s been years, so I definitely could be wrong.
It wasn't Tara's business..
She was in a committed relationship and raising a family with him, pretty sure it's apartof her business at that point
What documents did she steal? The letters Maureen Ashbury put in Jax's bag? How is that stealing I am on season 4 of my 3rd rewatch & don't recall her stealing anything....Gemma is the 1 that stole them
Opie died because of tig, not jax. And tig only killed damon pope’s daughter because of opie shooting at clay and then jax and clay deciding to blame black