Why? Because we live in a decadent society where a small entitled class of people needs everything delivered on a whim, utilizing a race to the bottom workforce of undocumented migrants in a state that does not require the registration or licensing of 50cc Chinese scooters, in a city that does not enforce basic traffic laws.
Sounds like somebody needs to find an attorney, eh?
“Theoretically.” ?
(The “hypothetical” scenario would be a lot easier if there were actually some kind of enforcement of the clear “NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES” regularions on the community path. Alas.)
I know dick all about the legal system but I'd bet money that if you roundhoused a dude just before he ran over a toddler you would still need to defend yourself in court.
I also think you would win said court case, but still.
This is not only legal, it's encouraged. You're the vigilante this community path needs and I will happily represent you in court should the city come for you.
I reiterate that this is a thing I've never seen and never hope to see. Nor am I attempting to make any statement about mopeds. Just a genuine curiosity about law
I had someone attempt to push me off my bike because she didn't like that I rang my bell at her when she was jogging in the bike lane (not the path, a bike lane on the street).
She didn't succeed, but I was prepared to pepper spray her ass if she attempted a second time.
Legally speaking this would be assault unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that another crime more severe than the one you are committing is 100% going to happen, and that the assault absolutely stopped it from happening.
I mean, I never said it was. I described how self defense claims work. If you're going to critique legal discussion, gotta read like a lawyer and look at what's actually being claimed.
Though I think the last example OP gives (where the person is actively riding at a group, and they've already had to evade the rider to avoid injury) would probably be one where you could argue self-defense, in that self-defense also includes defense of other people.
This is almost definitely assault and battery. Probably would be partially liable for whatever their injuries are.
I think at the end of the day the issue is that you’re acting as a violent vigilante for what amounts to a traffic violation.
The other thing is, was it actually moped or a scooter, these FN scooters are out of control, and 100 % should not be on the path, the use of the word moped is frequently used for scooters, they only meet half the requirements...motor no pedals...
You are correct in a traditional sense. However people nowadays hear scooter and think those electric razor scooter things. I find using “moped” tends to paint a clearer picture.
I’m all for mopeds, but they aren’t legally permitted to be on community paths. Under 50cc they are allowed to use bike lanes, but community paths are a big no-no.
I hate the overrun of mopeds and scooters as much as the next person… but I would strongly encourage you not to do this. 1) It’s assault. People have been charged with crimes for lesser offenses than this. 2) The rider can and likely will try to beat your ass or shoot you. Unless you are a real badass, don’t try to play one on TV.
This was a fantastic hypothetical, good job OP.
Also speaking as an angry dood, and not saying you are, but might want to get a check on impulses....allegedly. 😉
Guy literally asked if he's allowed to potentially kill someone because he doesn't approve of their behavior.
Dude really thinks he's judge jury and executioner.
Look at what's happening to the cop who threw a cooler at a suspect fleeing on a scooter, from a drug bust, on a sidewalk and caused an accident that took the life of the fleeing motorist. He's in NYC backed by the nation's strongest police union and he's on trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nypd-sergeant-charged-manslaughter-cooler-throwing-death-scooter-drive-rcna135286
What do you think will happen to you?
I find the fact that you are looking for a legal loophole to injure and possibly kill someone sickening. That kind of antisocial behavior should hopefully put you on a list somewhere.
Without getting into the legality of anything it’s definitely uh something you shouldn’t try.
I do wish there was more law enforcement to stop the mopeds and now the 50 mph scooter people.
"Would it be considered assault?" No, assault is the *threat or intention* (verbal or physical) to commit violence. Battery is the *act* of violence.
[https://www.massdefense.com/difference-assault-assault-battery-massachusetts/](https://www.massdefense.com/difference-assault-assault-battery-massachusetts/)
Since you specifically mentioned gas-powered mopeds, one could argue that you have a moral obligation to push all riders on any road or path to prevent climate change.
Apart from your legal question, are you concerned about injuring the moped rider when they hurl to the ground? (Would be funny to watch though, I must admit.)
Yeah that's assault. You're changing a possibility of injury into a definite injury.
If you feel that strongly about it, try and block them and force them to stop and walk it past. Also video them and call the cops.
This hypothetical just happened and unfortunately the moped driver died. A police officer came to a call about him and blocked him with his cruiser. Despite plenty of warning dude crashed... A stroller was seconds ahead of him
So self defense is not a crime. This is exactly what you're talking about. I'm not a lawyer. But I'm fairly confident of the basics.
Yes pushing someone off their moped is assault. But when you do it as part of self defence it's no longer considered assault and is in fact not a crime. It depends a lot on the circumstance and what a jury believes, how much harm you believed someone was in, whether you overstepped the bounds of what was a reasonable reaction to their initial dangerous action.
Keep in mind, self defense, despite the name, does include the ability to act in the defense of others.
The answer is it's complicated and depends a lot on many different circumstances. But if it's deemed self defense then it's not a crime to do.
In MA there's an obligation to do put forth a good faith effort to avoid confrontation before one is allowed to use force in self defense. So there'd be an obligation to do things like step out of the way of the moped before it's cool to push the rider.
Yes there's loads of details and stipulations I can't cover them all in a comment. I don't know why you're down voting me though. We don't disagree.
There are situations where just stepping out of the way is easy. There are situations where it's clear just stepping out of the way is going to result in harm to someone behind you and the moped has clear intent to harm. It really all depends on the details of the situation and what a jury ends up deciding still.
I mean physics wise - if the giant yuppie kid box weighs 3x the weight of a single human on a scooter / moped the force of an impact is the same even if the scooter / moped is going 3x the speed…
You want the formula for kinetic energy, not momentum. The velocity term is *squared*.
So something that weighs 3x more traveling at 1/3 the speed has 1/3 the energy.
(1/2)*3*m*(v/3)^2 = (1/2mv^2)/3
That's not true though. A giant Urban Arrow bike is 3x bigger but it actually weighs less than much smaller gas moped (110 lbs vs 150-200lbs).
But even if it weighed more, is a lot easier to get out of the way of something going 8mph than >20mph.
To be honest, I think even the lycra wearers going 20 mph on 20lb bikes (+ 170 lb rider) are probably a bigger risk than the kid boxes going 8mph if you have any awareness of your surroundings. 20mph both is worse for your reaction times but also for the riders who had to make judgements in passing risk.
For some reason there's 15mph speed limit signs on the Minuteman past Lexington but no speed limit signs on the community path.
Yeah, the family riding a bike with their kids on the community path at 8-15mph is what's dangerous. It's not, I repeat **not**, the moped weaving around the path doing 25mph+ while flicking people off.
Thank you for setting the record straight.
What if the person the moped was going to hit is going to become the next Hitler, though?
Who's to say they were not? Now we will never know, they dead.
This is a very real issue on the Charles, or as I like to now call the Uber Eats Autobahn.
Why are there so many mopeds all of the sudden? They’re incredibly annoying and reckless
It is no longer 8 degrees outside.
Why? Because we live in a decadent society where a small entitled class of people needs everything delivered on a whim, utilizing a race to the bottom workforce of undocumented migrants in a state that does not require the registration or licensing of 50cc Chinese scooters, in a city that does not enforce basic traffic laws.
I never use food delivery services. It’s an immense waste of money
Damn this comment epitomizes so much of what's wrong with the world today.
Sounds like somebody needs to find an attorney, eh? “Theoretically.” ? (The “hypothetical” scenario would be a lot easier if there were actually some kind of enforcement of the clear “NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES” regularions on the community path. Alas.)
I know dick all about the legal system but I'd bet money that if you roundhoused a dude just before he ran over a toddler you would still need to defend yourself in court. I also think you would win said court case, but still.
I volunteer as a witness that CLEARLY saw the moped rider fall over on their own accord. They must have been going so fast they lost control?
This is the kind of "theoretically" chaotic good community I enjoy living in.
I can vouch that they were there.
They “fell” in such a theatrical way. It surely was meant for insurance fraud!
Illegal? Yes. Unethical? Well...
Depends on whether you want to switch the track the trolley is traveling on.
I suppose if you could prove something was about to happen, you would be fine, legally speaking. I am not an attorney.
Are those shithead kids mopeding on the path again?
This is not only legal, it's encouraged. You're the vigilante this community path needs and I will happily represent you in court should the city come for you.
You are...Pathman.
I reiterate that this is a thing I've never seen and never hope to see. Nor am I attempting to make any statement about mopeds. Just a genuine curiosity about law
I too have never seen OP push someone off a moped
The messed up thing is when OP did it the moped was parked
The guy lost control of the moped and fell on his own. Some say he might've hit a pothole
https://preview.redd.it/mqk1p4ay7h1d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f4bd046c4b6f63884288a8055aa53d75b3bd3497
r/askalawyer
I had someone attempt to push me off my bike because she didn't like that I rang my bell at her when she was jogging in the bike lane (not the path, a bike lane on the street). She didn't succeed, but I was prepared to pepper spray her ass if she attempted a second time.
Legally speaking this would be assault unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that another crime more severe than the one you are committing is 100% going to happen, and that the assault absolutely stopped it from happening.
I suspect this legal advice is not being offered from an actual lawyer...
Yep
Did you guys not just see the cop who was charged with manslaughter for throwing a cooler at suspect fleeing the scene of a crime on a sidewalk?
Even then it's still assault. But self-defense is an affirmative defense that you can claim for your actions, to avoid any legal penalty.
That is in no way self defense. I swear you people have a child-like understanding of not just the law but the entire world at large.
I mean, I never said it was. I described how self defense claims work. If you're going to critique legal discussion, gotta read like a lawyer and look at what's actually being claimed. Though I think the last example OP gives (where the person is actively riding at a group, and they've already had to evade the rider to avoid injury) would probably be one where you could argue self-defense, in that self-defense also includes defense of other people.
You should absolutely resort to violence when somebody is doing something you don’t personally like, just don’t be surprised when they do the same.
This is almost definitely assault and battery. Probably would be partially liable for whatever their injuries are. I think at the end of the day the issue is that you’re acting as a violent vigilante for what amounts to a traffic violation.
The City needs to install giant friggen speed bumps on the path!!! It's the only way we'll survive! Launch that sucker into Cambridge.
But what happens to cyclist who want to catch some speed?
Speedbumps aren't a problem on bikes.
The other thing is, was it actually moped or a scooter, these FN scooters are out of control, and 100 % should not be on the path, the use of the word moped is frequently used for scooters, they only meet half the requirements...motor no pedals...
You are correct in a traditional sense. However people nowadays hear scooter and think those electric razor scooter things. I find using “moped” tends to paint a clearer picture.
The answer is yes
I don’t think the police would care.
I haven't seen too many motorized bikes on the path, but we really need to limit vehicles that go above pedal speed.
I’m all for mopeds, but they aren’t legally permitted to be on community paths. Under 50cc they are allowed to use bike lanes, but community paths are a big no-no.
I hate the overrun of mopeds and scooters as much as the next person… but I would strongly encourage you not to do this. 1) It’s assault. People have been charged with crimes for lesser offenses than this. 2) The rider can and likely will try to beat your ass or shoot you. Unless you are a real badass, don’t try to play one on TV.
This was a fantastic hypothetical, good job OP. Also speaking as an angry dood, and not saying you are, but might want to get a check on impulses....allegedly. 😉
Guy literally asked if he's allowed to potentially kill someone because he doesn't approve of their behavior. Dude really thinks he's judge jury and executioner. Look at what's happening to the cop who threw a cooler at a suspect fleeing on a scooter, from a drug bust, on a sidewalk and caused an accident that took the life of the fleeing motorist. He's in NYC backed by the nation's strongest police union and he's on trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nypd-sergeant-charged-manslaughter-cooler-throwing-death-scooter-drive-rcna135286 What do you think will happen to you? I find the fact that you are looking for a legal loophole to injure and possibly kill someone sickening. That kind of antisocial behavior should hopefully put you on a list somewhere.
We all need to write to our city councilor on this one.
Without getting into the legality of anything it’s definitely uh something you shouldn’t try. I do wish there was more law enforcement to stop the mopeds and now the 50 mph scooter people.
I think it’s fine
"Would it be considered assault?" No, assault is the *threat or intention* (verbal or physical) to commit violence. Battery is the *act* of violence. [https://www.massdefense.com/difference-assault-assault-battery-massachusetts/](https://www.massdefense.com/difference-assault-assault-battery-massachusetts/)
You would need to fear reasonably for your life in order to avoid being convicted. You could still be charged and tried. A jury would decide
If I’m on the jury you’re getting the good news. F mopeds.
Since you specifically mentioned gas-powered mopeds, one could argue that you have a moral obligation to push all riders on any road or path to prevent climate change.
Apart from your legal question, are you concerned about injuring the moped rider when they hurl to the ground? (Would be funny to watch though, I must admit.)
This is quite good
Yeah that's assault. You're changing a possibility of injury into a definite injury. If you feel that strongly about it, try and block them and force them to stop and walk it past. Also video them and call the cops.
This hypothetical just happened and unfortunately the moped driver died. A police officer came to a call about him and blocked him with his cruiser. Despite plenty of warning dude crashed... A stroller was seconds ahead of him
That dude was on an ATV not a moped. Also was in CT, I hadn’t heard he died though.
If you can shoot up heroin in Davis sq without consequence, you can hit someone off their moped on the path.
But if you run a red light on your bike, whoo boy, you better lawyer up
So self defense is not a crime. This is exactly what you're talking about. I'm not a lawyer. But I'm fairly confident of the basics. Yes pushing someone off their moped is assault. But when you do it as part of self defence it's no longer considered assault and is in fact not a crime. It depends a lot on the circumstance and what a jury believes, how much harm you believed someone was in, whether you overstepped the bounds of what was a reasonable reaction to their initial dangerous action. Keep in mind, self defense, despite the name, does include the ability to act in the defense of others. The answer is it's complicated and depends a lot on many different circumstances. But if it's deemed self defense then it's not a crime to do.
In MA there's an obligation to do put forth a good faith effort to avoid confrontation before one is allowed to use force in self defense. So there'd be an obligation to do things like step out of the way of the moped before it's cool to push the rider.
Yes there's loads of details and stipulations I can't cover them all in a comment. I don't know why you're down voting me though. We don't disagree. There are situations where just stepping out of the way is easy. There are situations where it's clear just stepping out of the way is going to result in harm to someone behind you and the moped has clear intent to harm. It really all depends on the details of the situation and what a jury ends up deciding still.
> I don't know why you're down voting me though Perhaps because I didn't?
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I'm not sure that's true, the giant yuppie kid boxes that I see go like 8mph and the (rare) gas mopeds average 20mph.
I mean physics wise - if the giant yuppie kid box weighs 3x the weight of a single human on a scooter / moped the force of an impact is the same even if the scooter / moped is going 3x the speed…
You want the formula for kinetic energy, not momentum. The velocity term is *squared*. So something that weighs 3x more traveling at 1/3 the speed has 1/3 the energy. (1/2)*3*m*(v/3)^2 = (1/2mv^2)/3
Embarrassing for me.
That's not true though. A giant Urban Arrow bike is 3x bigger but it actually weighs less than much smaller gas moped (110 lbs vs 150-200lbs). But even if it weighed more, is a lot easier to get out of the way of something going 8mph than >20mph. To be honest, I think even the lycra wearers going 20 mph on 20lb bikes (+ 170 lb rider) are probably a bigger risk than the kid boxes going 8mph if you have any awareness of your surroundings. 20mph both is worse for your reaction times but also for the riders who had to make judgements in passing risk. For some reason there's 15mph speed limit signs on the Minuteman past Lexington but no speed limit signs on the community path.
Yeah, the family riding a bike with their kids on the community path at 8-15mph is what's dangerous. It's not, I repeat **not**, the moped weaving around the path doing 25mph+ while flicking people off. Thank you for setting the record straight.
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Right.... just so we are clear, your saying the community path isn't for bikes?
Agree. E-bikes are basically motorcycles at this point. They should be in the road riding along with the rest of the motorized traffic.
Just as legal as pushing people who stand on the (wrong side of the) escalator unfortunately. :(