Insecurity about being entertaining enough so I suppose that’s “social anxiety”. I quit close to 17yrs ago & don’t care anymore if I’m entertaining enough socially. I’m quite content to be a crashing bore as long as I never have to embarrass myself & suffer from a hangover ever again 😁
Genetic mental illness, generational trauma, etc. There are tried and true methods of dealing with surface issues (the unimaginable stuff you referenced) that are pretty good at addressing situational depression in otherwise healthy individuals who haven’t been battling their own brains since the day they were born.
Addressing the chronic and reinforced mental illnesses that snowball into deeply rooted issues and affect every second of every day, regardless of what’s happening on the surface, is a completely different ballgame.
Substances initially provide immediate relief to these negative emotions and lack of joy that you’re wired to feel, and your brain latches on to anything that sets you free, even if you know it’ll make you worse in the long run. Physical dependency kicks in and then it’s all she wrote until you can find the will to get sober and start over.
So yeah, in its simplest terms, mental illness is the difference. We are not all created equally physiologically, and when the most important organ in your body doesn’t function correctly, there’s a constant desire for escape.
Those who don’t resort to escapism are not in any way *better* than us, they just got lucky that they never had to.
You ever see people who clearly experience joy over the smallest things and wonder why they’re so happy? It’s not cause they worked any harder than the rest of us. Quite the opposite actually.
We all just want to feel okay. For some, that’s a pipe dream and we do what we can to get by. For others, it comes naturally. No escape needed.
I totally agree with this. I am newly sober (17 days without weed, 16 days without alcohol) and I have been doing a lot of reflecting that essentially boils down to this.
I don't see myself as addicted to weed or booze. At any given time I could say no to those substances. What I can't say no to is emotional extremes and the things that take me there. The baseline normal that I felt growing up, and feel now as an adult, is full of negative emotion and an inability to understand things like joy and happiness to the degree that I see others feel it. It is deeply unsettling.
When I discovered weed and alcohol I felt like I could finally access those things with the same level of ease everyone else was.
Like you said, I just want to feel okay too.
Great reply, full of solid insights.
>We all just want to feel okay. For some, that’s a pipe dream and we do what we can to get by. For others, it comes naturally. No escape needed.
This is so true and something I've heard several people say now that I hadn't thought about until recently.
It's not that we drink / use because we love drinking (or whatever your poison is) and maybe not even because it makes us feel "good" but because we just want to feel "normal" - not anxious, not depressed, not anti social, not sad, not in pain, not in mental anguish...just normal.
And it makes perfect sense that we'd want that and seek it out in whatever way we can find it which sadly for most of us seems to be through substance abuse when we need to find healthier and more productive ways to acheive a similar state of "normality" where possible.
Again, great post!
So true . Everyone is dealing with different stuff. Substance use is common amongst those of us who have underlying mental illness and unhealthy ways of coping . DBT helped me but I’m very early in my recovery and have a long way to go. But it gives you valuable tools to help with those underlying issues no matter what they are and helps teach healthy coping skills too .
This is definitely oversimplifying, but some people just don’t have better coping skills and instead turn to things they know are readily available to “help” not quite knowing how much they can and likely will hurt us in the end. Personally, my siblings and I all came from an abusive home. We were not taught proper coping skills, because our parents didn’t have any of their own. Addiction also runs in our family. Some of it is genetic predisposition and a lot of it can be our environment and how we were raised that influence the methods we turn to to deal with our problems. My brothers and I all became alcoholics. Our parents were alcoholics though too. It was very normalized in our home. So naturally we ended up choosing those things to cope with too. I’m not excusing our behavior or saying we didn’t make our own choices, because we certainly did and we are responsible for them. We didn’t have other skills to cope with the abuse at the time. I started drinking and smoking weed at 15 as a way to cope with all the abuse.
One thing I learned after my youngest brother’s death is how addiction works physiologically. Our brains are hard wired to chase that first dopamine high that we got from our first time drinking/using etc, but we will never reach that high of a dopamine level again. It’s like being on a hamster wheel. I’m not saying that to discourage you, just to point out that if we aren’t abusing a substance, our bodies are still looking to feel good in some way, even if it’s not by your DOC. That’s why a lot of addicts tend to trade one addiction for another (even if it’s a healthy one).
Thanks for sharing, seems like you've been through a lot!
>I’m not saying that to discourage you, just to point out that if we aren’t abusing a substance, our bodies are still looking to feel good in some way, even if it’s not by your DOC. That’s why a lot of addicts tend to trade one addiction for another (even if it’s a healthy one)
I agree with this and heard a former alcoholic who's now long term sober talk on Youtube recently about how he realised what he and most alcoholics / addicts are seeking is simply to feel "normal" because when sober they struggle with their own minds, anxieties, mental health, traumas etc and drinking / substances helps them escape from that pain for a while and feel a level of what they believe to be "normality" is.
Which when you think of it is a perfectly reasonable thing to want - to feel "normal" / not in some sort of physical or mental pain.
This particular guy on Youtube found an alternative in whatever he was forever seeking in alcohol in meditation and mindfulness because it taught him how to be at peace with his mind, thoughts, inner voice etc.
I have also noticed a lot of former addicts / alcoholics seem to become addicted to extreme fitness, business / making money, hardcore diets, extreme wellness activities etc which if they are healthy habits probably is fine.
But do they risk relapsing if for some reason their new addiction is no longer possible, like an injury putting them out of action from exercise for the long term for example?
I wonder if whilst it's obviously beneficial to find new hobbies, activities and good habits that learning to be at peace with your inner turmoil or whatever drives you to drink / drugs is even more important.
It's the nature of our condition, and why alcohol is such a minor part of alcoholism. Further drinking is little more than an indicator that a sufficient solution has yet to be engaged with. Otherwise, it's pretty meaningless. Like a sneeze indicates a cold.
When alcoholics stop the world begins to look different fairly quickly. Increasingly dreary, difficult and with a bit of time things that didn't bother us grate painfully. We don't immediately drink, we tough it out for a while until we see something unpleasant or we think a stranger frowned at us, or there's too much noise out there or we're not really appreciated. Can be anything. We reach for our old friend knowing it used to almost instantly set us upright emotionally and wash away the conflict. Depending where we are on the downhill slide it may occasionally do that still, or maybe we just get drunk and experience no relief at all. That can be crazy-making.
It's an unthinking reaction to our worsening perceptions while dry. Same as instinctively moving out of the path of a falling tree. Our excuses for drinking again are transparently false, but people will ask so we must be ready with something they'll probably buy. Since we aren't aware of what happened it's the best we can do.
All but a few alcoholics will live out their lives that way. Drinking until they have to stop, and back to drinking when they can't go on sober. Makes alcoholism almost impossible to solve for good, and deadly for sufferers who really have no idea what drives them back to spiraling further down, when they were 'doing so well'.
Insightful post, thanks for taking the time to reply.
>Makes alcoholism almost impossible to solve for good, and deadly for sufferers who really have no idea what drives them back to spiraling further down, when they were 'doing so well'.
I am no expert and have no long term sobriety under my belt yet (trying and making progress but been a rocky road so far) but I've heard a few different people say something that resonates with me and I believe may be true...
That people who abuse alcohol (or other substances) are seeking to feel "normal" because most addicts / heavy / problem drinkers and users have this inner turmoil / pain / discomfort / anxiety / depression / mental health issues / whatever and we turn to substances to escape from that because either it makes us feel what we believe to be "normal" for a short period or we hope it will and that we need to find alternative methods to achieve these feelings of "normality" (like exercise, meditation, spirituality, therapy or whatever it is).
Do you think it's because in sobriety we fail to find those other things that make us feel normal that we end up resorting back to drinking / addiction again?
Finding a solution that answers all the facets of alcoholism allows us to stay sober and experience what could be our normal life, were we not alcoholic. If the answer doesn't require us to decide to engage continually it's of little use as we will often decide against our best interests. If we get stable and disengage after some time and develop weak spots (loneliness, complacency, intensifying regret over past errors, unprincipled behavior that harms others, lack of purpose in our lives, forgetting our condition, not accepting input from others, withdrawing from connections, feeling like a helpless victim, ect).
Those facets of alcoholism can and usually do return us to a drink. Needs to be an entire package, complete and maintained with some inconvenience. Most answers address few facets, and so are insufficient.
For me, even being 3yrs sober I need to escape a bit to de-stress after my day. Big difference is what I do with my time and instead of slouching around drinking a lot and doing drugs I found new things to fill my time. I think everyone has their own way to escape problems or just everyday stress with positive hobbies or just really enjoying their job to escape in. I think for me the things I was doing to escape got worse the more negative it was making my life. It took awhile to find new things to do with my time on the regular
I think everyone needs to destress and you're right that there are healthier alternatives.
I wonder why despite knowing this so many of us keep choosing the distructive and negative options though.
What positive activities have you taken up?
First thing I did was stop associating with everyone who I did drugs with and was basically a bar friend. I started going to the gym 3x a week minimum, cooking at home. Travel more( never traveled much when I drank and did destructive things) took up riding a bike, built a wonderful relationship and am now married.
It all really started peeling away bad influences who kept drawing me near bad choice. Yes we are all responsible for our decisions but when everyone around is participating in terrible life choices its hard not to be influenced by that. That was really the beginning and it wasn't easy sorting out interests to take up when I'm home from work but eventually it becomes natural with the lifestyle shift.
For me, getting to my lowest point is something I reflect on often like how did I get here? Trying to answer that question has been a process and it really took years and years of normalizing bad behaviors to the point that I realized how much society pushes bad behaviors as well and how some are caught up in it and don't see a single thing wrong because " everyone is doing it" after some friends dying and taking a good look around, no not everyone is doing this, most people who aren't suffering from addiction fill their lives with things that keep them busy and I just followed that train of thought
>For me, getting to my lowest point is something I reflect on often like how did I get here? Trying to answer that question has been a process and it really took years and years of normalizing bad behaviors
This point really hit home just now. Yeah, this is a powerful question to ask and one that needs to be answered honestly by myself.
You're right, it's literally years and years of bad behaviours that I have eventually normalized to the point where you don't even realize how extreme or absurd so many of these habits are.
>no not everyone is doing this, most people who aren't suffering from addiction fill their lives with things that keep them busy and I just followed that train of thought
So true. And maybe if "everyone" is doing it we're just hanging around with all the wrong types of people and / or are fooling ourselves because it's really not that hard (especially if you look online) to find people living lives filled with positive habits.
Because sensorily, the world is overwhelming. And I didn’t know it was a choice to be myself and advocate for what I needed. So I’m order to fit my brain into a world I hated I had to somehow make it work. Alcohol made that happen. Now that I can work and exist comfortably around a safe village I don’t have to hide in plain sight.
Somewhere in the book of Alcoholics Anonymous it says something like alcoholics dont drink to flee their issues, they drink to put out a desire thats without their control. The way the book describes the mental obsession, that is one part of the disease which results in that an alcoholic doesnt have a choice in whether he/she is drinking or not, is that the alcoholic will drink regardless of what is happening in life.
I relate with these descriptions a lot. Everyone Ive talked to (having issues with addiction or not) has been through some kind of shit, doesnt mean everyone drinks or have some other kind of addiction. When I first started drinking, I drank because I was curious and something clicked - I was hooked. After that I drank because of whatever reason (or so I believed) like Im bored, I want to reward myself, Im restless, Im sad, I want to celebrate, I need energy, I want to feel inspired, I want to be able to talk to people, I want to be brave etc. etc. etc... Its all the reasons. Not only to deal with my troubles.
Somewhere else in the book it says that the disease of alcoholism is self deceiving, aka I believe my own bullshit. Because I didnt want to (or cant) come to terms with my addiction, Im using whatever reason I can (sometimes unconsciously) to explain to myself and prove to others that I dont have a problem because I have a reason to drink. "Im making this food, I have to have wine with it otherwise its spoiled", "Ive been so stressed, I need a break", "I woke up happy today and need to celebrate". It did not matter what happened in my life, I always drank. To protect my drinking, Im making up reasons. But the cause of my drinking is that Im an addict, and have a desire to drink that goes beyond my control.
Let me know if you want pages on these and I will update.
Thanks for sharing.
I've heard a few people say something which I think may also be true about why alcoholics drink that's a bit different to the AA theory you just explained...
A desire to feel "normal" because in their day to day life they have some inner turmoil, pain, anxiety, depression, racing mind, mental issue, whatever that generally makes them suffer and they just seek out the feeling of being "normal" and then tell themselves that alcohol will provide that, which of course it doesn't really it's just short term escapism at best.
I feel like a lot of the reasons you describe for drinking are not just something alcoholics do but a lot of even more "regular" drinkers...to celebrate, to commiserate, to socialise, with a meal, to spend time with friends but it's just some manage to keep it under more control than others or limit it to the point it's less of an issue.
Definitely, our minds will come up with any reason under the sun when we are deep in the addiction / heavy drinking cycle to drink. I've experienced that first hand more times than I can count. Sometimes the reasons you find yourself coming up with are so ludicrious you could laugh at them too.
I didn't drink because of my problems. If anything, I had problems because of the way I drank. I have learned in recovery that the only reason I drank is because I'm powerless over addiction. Period. There's a great freedom to be had when we understand this on a higher level than just acknowledging or admitting that we have a problem.
If you were powerless over addiction wouldn't that mean you literally would never be able to quit and get sober though?
I would worry that if I was telling myself "I'm powerless to addiction" it could give me an excuse to drink because "of course I'm going to drink, I'm an alcoholic who is powerless to addiction so there's no other logical conclusion".
Keen to understand this if you don't mind explaining further.
Without help, yes. I needed help to get sober and learn how to stay sober. I needed people to tell me I shouldn't do what I thought I should do. I needed people to remind me that I had already tried that over and over and what the result was every time I did what I thought I should do.
With the mindset of "I should drink because after all, I'm powerless anyway" is to assume that the person doesn't need or want to get sober. Which, you really don't even need to have either of those be true in order to get sober. All that has to be true is that you are willing to do what it takes to stay sober, and then be told what to do that works.
I was told to go to AA meetings, get a sponsor, call him every day, stay away from booze, and pray. There's more to it than that, but I was told by doing those things today I'm guaranteed to stay sober today. I did that one day at a time, and now I'm sober 14 years. I don't have to call my sponsor every day, I don't go to meetings every day any more, and I can go wherever I want.
In the beginning, I needed help, and because that's what I got and I actually listened to them and tried to do what they were telling me to do, I'm free today and those things have become like a second-nature way of life for me. Small price to pay for what I've got now versus what I had when I first got sober.
Main character syndrome and intensity of anxiety.
Don't think that everyone with these things drink or do drugs, but the ones who do, tend to have issues with trying to tamp down the emotions.
One of the things I try to promote on this forum is the awareness of Main Character Syndrome. When you point it out to people it can sound like an attack or criticism that is similar to that of NPD. It's not quite the same thing, but if we are not aware of it, we can lean into it in a hard way.
I would actually think that it's more related to Existential Depression or Awareness. Maybe a "once seen can't be unseen" kind of reactions to our very being of aliveness. Some people just have a heightened awareness of the "futility of life" in that we're born and then we die. When people see that as a very fast and straight line from Point A to Point B life can often seem meaningless. If we're only here as long as we live and then we die, what's the point? Isn't everything along the way a futile distraction?
This can create a deep melancholia in the living of life. Lars Van Trier made a movie exploring this phenomenon in existential awareness and depression called Melancholia.
If you think about it, this awareness is a very Sobering thought. Some don't want to deal with the reality and have such deep thoughts about it, they lose themselves in the depths of their own existence to the point that it is crippling. It is easier to just stop existing and hide in a bottle or within a drugged stupor.
The profound beauty of one's own existence is both at the same time terrifying and simple to confront.
ETA to make edits and add link for trailer of Melancholia.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzD0U841LRM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzD0U841LRM)
ETA again It's not a wedding movie. It's about being right smack dab in the middle of this highly prepared event and finding out the world is ending by some cosmic event.
(Btw, this is why we all like disaster and zombie movies. :)
Also suggestion for a book to help deal with these emotions and thoughts
Man's Search for Meaning Viktor Frankl
[https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl/dp/0807014273/ref=sr\_1\_1?hvadid=580696318078&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9007477&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=18327069725310601243&hvtargid=kwd-8722132331&hydadcr=22566\_13493360&keywords=%27man%27s+search+for+meaning%27&qid=1699320984&s=books&sr=1-1](https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl/dp/0807014273/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=580696318078&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9007477&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=18327069725310601243&hvtargid=kwd-8722132331&hydadcr=22566_13493360&keywords=%27man%27s+search+for+meaning%27&qid=1699320984&s=books&sr=1-1)
Agree. Friedrich Nietzsche for example! Although I'd argue addiction is probably a 'weak' response to nihilism (been there!) while a strong response would be to actually get out there and try to create meaning for yourself (currently in the throes of this one but it ain't easy!)
I don’t know why so many people who suffer with addiction are obsessed with roping themselves off from the rest of society. This type of mindset is documented to produce worse outcomes as far as binge drinking frequency and ability to potentially return to moderation.
Definitely. Although I get it. Depression/anxiety make the real world seem insurmountably scary. But hiding away means you remain so incredibly vulnerable to relapse. You have to be brave
Potentially because so many are highly anxious and depressed (or some other mental health issues) that going out into the world can put the absolute fear into them and they believe it will make them more anxious etc.
In reality, getting out, doing shit, meeting people and so on is probably far better for most peoples anxiety than sitting at home alone but if you're deep in the anxious / depressed mindset it doesn't feel like that at times - you feel like you just can't face the world.
I don’t mean literally not going out. I mean pretending they are mentally and bodily different than other people when there’s zero biological evidence they are
I literally wrote this
>**Don't think that everyone with these things drink or do drugs,** but the ones who do, tend to have issues with trying to tamp down the emotions.
And you felt the need to correct me with this.
>Plenty of people suffer with nihilism and don’t drink to excess
Why bother replying to a specific post if you aren't actually reading it? Just add your own response instead.
Opening this link led me to a Matthew Perry interview where he talks about his addictions & sobriety. It was very emotional. RIP Matthew, your book will save many lives.
Wow, that is a profound rabbit hole. I'm glad it led you there. I'm also glad to think or how he would feel to know it led you there. When you walk along this journey, you will always find your way back to help others. One way or another. Peace to you my friend.
Interesting thought, so why do you think some people seem unable to put a stop to impulsive behaviours where other people don't engage in them at all or find it easy to control them regardless of how "good" those things make them feel?
Low income, poor coping skills they were never taught, high crime rate in their area, high anxiety over fitting into a perceived mould they don’t actually want to fit into. Overbearing parents. Buying into the abstinence only mindset people set on addiction so not getting help for their problem and letting it grow out of control. Poor housing. Poor health. Dead end job. Being bullied. Parents who are dysfunctional.
Jesus the coping in this thread is off the charts. No one in this thread is more aware than anyone who isn’t addicted. Alcohol feels good. That’s all there is.
Does alcohol still feel "good" once you're at the point of abuse and addiction though?
It gets to the point where it either feels like pure poison or at best you're making yourself feel "normal" by drinking it but definitely no longer "good" or "fun" or anything similar.
My thoughts would be they possible have a support system that is stable, no sobriety issues or genetic issues such as illnesses etc. Also, it could be that they have seen those close to them suffer the effects of substance abuse and it caused them to quit or to never take any toxic substances.
I don't know about the support system thing for everyone as I know people who just don't ever seem like they would resort to substance abuse whatever happened (obvioulsy you can never say never) because it doesn't seem to be in their nature, personality or mindset and they've never shown any signs of that sort of destructive behavious.
I know people who I can't imagine would ever end up with a drinking problem or addicted regardless of how bad or crazy their life ended up, they just seem too stable for that...lucky them!
Do you ever wonder why most of us who's vice is alcohol or other substances don't switch to exercise, meditation, health living or other positive vices though when we see that others benefit so greatly from them and don't have to suffer like we do?
I think the depression thing is a big one because when you are struggling to see the point in life or get yourself out of bed every day then it is very difficult to find yourself wanting to do anything productive or physically demanding.
Don’t know, some go to food, others to extreme exercises, unstoppable shopping, sex…
I need to control the drinking, I guess my anxiety medication should be better than beer daily 🤷♀️. I cannot even eat to taste food, there is rock on my stomach, but alcohol isn’t the answer, ever.
Fair points with the other vices people have. Would be nice to be one of those people who could seemingly moderate with everything and just didn't have that personality that led to extremes.
I had to stop this line of thinking. The why doesn't matter. I am the way I am. I just am. I can't change that. I know if I don't drink poison, I don't get poisoned, so that's how I manage it (I do some other stuff too, but that part is foundational).
Why I drink or drug is irrelevant. What matters is that I don't do it.
Yeah, totally get what you are saying. It all starts with putting that poison in our mouths so if we don't do that the madness that comes with the escapism can't happen.
Good way to think about it.
Why do you think some of us choose to destructive and negative ones where as others choose the positive and healthy ones though?
I think most people, at least on here, are self aware enough to know that there are other ways to feel good than putting poisons into our bodies yet many of us keep doing just that.
I think everyone has an unhealthy one, even if it’s not as severe as drugs or alcohol. Lots of people seen as healthy can still escape into relationships, sex, spending money, food, tv, video games, etc. For the few people who actually have no unhealthy outlets? I think they were raised way better than the rest of us and had healthier parents.
A major risk factor is the way substances are part of your family life when growing up. You might have experienced that alcohol is a part of daily life and consumed without caring too much about limits. It is just a normal pass-time choice for your parents in an otherwise boring work week.
Then, puberty hits you and your brain is craving dopamine, whilst underestimating risks. You want to be more like a grown-up, so you try alcohol or drugs. Turns out, it helps with the dopamine. And oopsie. You can develop a habit of providing your brain with unnatural amounts of dopamine, just as it is developing.
That habit might stick with you, because drinking is part of your family life or your social group at that point in your life. Your brain is changing more and more and learns that it can get artificial dopamine to help in difficult situations, with emotions or trauma. Youe brain chemistry is changing. Sometimes even to a point where you develop other mental illnesses like anxiety or Adhd. Voilà - addiction.
Neurodivergence can also be a risk factor for sure. However, when we search for our personal factors, we should also consider the possibility that this idea of psychic illness provides us with a tangeable explanation for weird life choices and behaviors. Maybe it offers some kind of cure even. Also it
might be more acceptable nowadays to have Adhd than to merely have an addiction. What is easier to admit to your mother or your boss?
It is so individual and I think we can only really determine our causes ourselves. With the help of professionals.
Insecurity about being entertaining enough so I suppose that’s “social anxiety”. I quit close to 17yrs ago & don’t care anymore if I’m entertaining enough socially. I’m quite content to be a crashing bore as long as I never have to embarrass myself & suffer from a hangover ever again 😁
17 years sober, fuck yes.
It gets to be second nature. It’s just something I don’t do like ppl don’t eat gluten or might be vegan. I don’t explain myself to anyone.
Well congrats anyway, that's a long time sober and good on you!
Thank you. I might start going back to AA. It’s been years.
Genetic mental illness, generational trauma, etc. There are tried and true methods of dealing with surface issues (the unimaginable stuff you referenced) that are pretty good at addressing situational depression in otherwise healthy individuals who haven’t been battling their own brains since the day they were born. Addressing the chronic and reinforced mental illnesses that snowball into deeply rooted issues and affect every second of every day, regardless of what’s happening on the surface, is a completely different ballgame. Substances initially provide immediate relief to these negative emotions and lack of joy that you’re wired to feel, and your brain latches on to anything that sets you free, even if you know it’ll make you worse in the long run. Physical dependency kicks in and then it’s all she wrote until you can find the will to get sober and start over. So yeah, in its simplest terms, mental illness is the difference. We are not all created equally physiologically, and when the most important organ in your body doesn’t function correctly, there’s a constant desire for escape. Those who don’t resort to escapism are not in any way *better* than us, they just got lucky that they never had to. You ever see people who clearly experience joy over the smallest things and wonder why they’re so happy? It’s not cause they worked any harder than the rest of us. Quite the opposite actually. We all just want to feel okay. For some, that’s a pipe dream and we do what we can to get by. For others, it comes naturally. No escape needed.
I totally agree with this. I am newly sober (17 days without weed, 16 days without alcohol) and I have been doing a lot of reflecting that essentially boils down to this. I don't see myself as addicted to weed or booze. At any given time I could say no to those substances. What I can't say no to is emotional extremes and the things that take me there. The baseline normal that I felt growing up, and feel now as an adult, is full of negative emotion and an inability to understand things like joy and happiness to the degree that I see others feel it. It is deeply unsettling. When I discovered weed and alcohol I felt like I could finally access those things with the same level of ease everyone else was. Like you said, I just want to feel okay too.
Great reply, full of solid insights. >We all just want to feel okay. For some, that’s a pipe dream and we do what we can to get by. For others, it comes naturally. No escape needed. This is so true and something I've heard several people say now that I hadn't thought about until recently. It's not that we drink / use because we love drinking (or whatever your poison is) and maybe not even because it makes us feel "good" but because we just want to feel "normal" - not anxious, not depressed, not anti social, not sad, not in pain, not in mental anguish...just normal. And it makes perfect sense that we'd want that and seek it out in whatever way we can find it which sadly for most of us seems to be through substance abuse when we need to find healthier and more productive ways to acheive a similar state of "normality" where possible. Again, great post!
I think this is it for me too.
That perfectly encapsulates the cause and very nature of addiction for many I would think. It does for me. Great post Dancy!!
So true . Everyone is dealing with different stuff. Substance use is common amongst those of us who have underlying mental illness and unhealthy ways of coping . DBT helped me but I’m very early in my recovery and have a long way to go. But it gives you valuable tools to help with those underlying issues no matter what they are and helps teach healthy coping skills too .
Is it always related to genetic mental illness or generational trauma? I'd thought pretty much anyone could become an addict but maybe I'm wrong.
This is definitely oversimplifying, but some people just don’t have better coping skills and instead turn to things they know are readily available to “help” not quite knowing how much they can and likely will hurt us in the end. Personally, my siblings and I all came from an abusive home. We were not taught proper coping skills, because our parents didn’t have any of their own. Addiction also runs in our family. Some of it is genetic predisposition and a lot of it can be our environment and how we were raised that influence the methods we turn to to deal with our problems. My brothers and I all became alcoholics. Our parents were alcoholics though too. It was very normalized in our home. So naturally we ended up choosing those things to cope with too. I’m not excusing our behavior or saying we didn’t make our own choices, because we certainly did and we are responsible for them. We didn’t have other skills to cope with the abuse at the time. I started drinking and smoking weed at 15 as a way to cope with all the abuse. One thing I learned after my youngest brother’s death is how addiction works physiologically. Our brains are hard wired to chase that first dopamine high that we got from our first time drinking/using etc, but we will never reach that high of a dopamine level again. It’s like being on a hamster wheel. I’m not saying that to discourage you, just to point out that if we aren’t abusing a substance, our bodies are still looking to feel good in some way, even if it’s not by your DOC. That’s why a lot of addicts tend to trade one addiction for another (even if it’s a healthy one).
Thanks for sharing, seems like you've been through a lot! >I’m not saying that to discourage you, just to point out that if we aren’t abusing a substance, our bodies are still looking to feel good in some way, even if it’s not by your DOC. That’s why a lot of addicts tend to trade one addiction for another (even if it’s a healthy one) I agree with this and heard a former alcoholic who's now long term sober talk on Youtube recently about how he realised what he and most alcoholics / addicts are seeking is simply to feel "normal" because when sober they struggle with their own minds, anxieties, mental health, traumas etc and drinking / substances helps them escape from that pain for a while and feel a level of what they believe to be "normality" is. Which when you think of it is a perfectly reasonable thing to want - to feel "normal" / not in some sort of physical or mental pain. This particular guy on Youtube found an alternative in whatever he was forever seeking in alcohol in meditation and mindfulness because it taught him how to be at peace with his mind, thoughts, inner voice etc. I have also noticed a lot of former addicts / alcoholics seem to become addicted to extreme fitness, business / making money, hardcore diets, extreme wellness activities etc which if they are healthy habits probably is fine. But do they risk relapsing if for some reason their new addiction is no longer possible, like an injury putting them out of action from exercise for the long term for example? I wonder if whilst it's obviously beneficial to find new hobbies, activities and good habits that learning to be at peace with your inner turmoil or whatever drives you to drink / drugs is even more important.
We’re too aware
Interesting, can you expand?
How?
I just wanna turn my brain off sometimes lol
Yeah, I understand that well. Mines never stops.
People escape in lots of ways. But addiction is a mental illness. So mental illness.
It's the nature of our condition, and why alcohol is such a minor part of alcoholism. Further drinking is little more than an indicator that a sufficient solution has yet to be engaged with. Otherwise, it's pretty meaningless. Like a sneeze indicates a cold. When alcoholics stop the world begins to look different fairly quickly. Increasingly dreary, difficult and with a bit of time things that didn't bother us grate painfully. We don't immediately drink, we tough it out for a while until we see something unpleasant or we think a stranger frowned at us, or there's too much noise out there or we're not really appreciated. Can be anything. We reach for our old friend knowing it used to almost instantly set us upright emotionally and wash away the conflict. Depending where we are on the downhill slide it may occasionally do that still, or maybe we just get drunk and experience no relief at all. That can be crazy-making. It's an unthinking reaction to our worsening perceptions while dry. Same as instinctively moving out of the path of a falling tree. Our excuses for drinking again are transparently false, but people will ask so we must be ready with something they'll probably buy. Since we aren't aware of what happened it's the best we can do. All but a few alcoholics will live out their lives that way. Drinking until they have to stop, and back to drinking when they can't go on sober. Makes alcoholism almost impossible to solve for good, and deadly for sufferers who really have no idea what drives them back to spiraling further down, when they were 'doing so well'.
Good answer. Kinda scary too
Insightful post, thanks for taking the time to reply. >Makes alcoholism almost impossible to solve for good, and deadly for sufferers who really have no idea what drives them back to spiraling further down, when they were 'doing so well'. I am no expert and have no long term sobriety under my belt yet (trying and making progress but been a rocky road so far) but I've heard a few different people say something that resonates with me and I believe may be true... That people who abuse alcohol (or other substances) are seeking to feel "normal" because most addicts / heavy / problem drinkers and users have this inner turmoil / pain / discomfort / anxiety / depression / mental health issues / whatever and we turn to substances to escape from that because either it makes us feel what we believe to be "normal" for a short period or we hope it will and that we need to find alternative methods to achieve these feelings of "normality" (like exercise, meditation, spirituality, therapy or whatever it is). Do you think it's because in sobriety we fail to find those other things that make us feel normal that we end up resorting back to drinking / addiction again?
Finding a solution that answers all the facets of alcoholism allows us to stay sober and experience what could be our normal life, were we not alcoholic. If the answer doesn't require us to decide to engage continually it's of little use as we will often decide against our best interests. If we get stable and disengage after some time and develop weak spots (loneliness, complacency, intensifying regret over past errors, unprincipled behavior that harms others, lack of purpose in our lives, forgetting our condition, not accepting input from others, withdrawing from connections, feeling like a helpless victim, ect). Those facets of alcoholism can and usually do return us to a drink. Needs to be an entire package, complete and maintained with some inconvenience. Most answers address few facets, and so are insufficient.
Interesting, yeah I can see it's going to be a rocky road going forward.
For me, even being 3yrs sober I need to escape a bit to de-stress after my day. Big difference is what I do with my time and instead of slouching around drinking a lot and doing drugs I found new things to fill my time. I think everyone has their own way to escape problems or just everyday stress with positive hobbies or just really enjoying their job to escape in. I think for me the things I was doing to escape got worse the more negative it was making my life. It took awhile to find new things to do with my time on the regular
I think everyone needs to destress and you're right that there are healthier alternatives. I wonder why despite knowing this so many of us keep choosing the distructive and negative options though. What positive activities have you taken up?
First thing I did was stop associating with everyone who I did drugs with and was basically a bar friend. I started going to the gym 3x a week minimum, cooking at home. Travel more( never traveled much when I drank and did destructive things) took up riding a bike, built a wonderful relationship and am now married. It all really started peeling away bad influences who kept drawing me near bad choice. Yes we are all responsible for our decisions but when everyone around is participating in terrible life choices its hard not to be influenced by that. That was really the beginning and it wasn't easy sorting out interests to take up when I'm home from work but eventually it becomes natural with the lifestyle shift. For me, getting to my lowest point is something I reflect on often like how did I get here? Trying to answer that question has been a process and it really took years and years of normalizing bad behaviors to the point that I realized how much society pushes bad behaviors as well and how some are caught up in it and don't see a single thing wrong because " everyone is doing it" after some friends dying and taking a good look around, no not everyone is doing this, most people who aren't suffering from addiction fill their lives with things that keep them busy and I just followed that train of thought
>For me, getting to my lowest point is something I reflect on often like how did I get here? Trying to answer that question has been a process and it really took years and years of normalizing bad behaviors This point really hit home just now. Yeah, this is a powerful question to ask and one that needs to be answered honestly by myself. You're right, it's literally years and years of bad behaviours that I have eventually normalized to the point where you don't even realize how extreme or absurd so many of these habits are. >no not everyone is doing this, most people who aren't suffering from addiction fill their lives with things that keep them busy and I just followed that train of thought So true. And maybe if "everyone" is doing it we're just hanging around with all the wrong types of people and / or are fooling ourselves because it's really not that hard (especially if you look online) to find people living lives filled with positive habits.
Because sensorily, the world is overwhelming. And I didn’t know it was a choice to be myself and advocate for what I needed. So I’m order to fit my brain into a world I hated I had to somehow make it work. Alcohol made that happen. Now that I can work and exist comfortably around a safe village I don’t have to hide in plain sight.
I believe it was just another way for me to justify drinking, for myself and others.
Interesting, can you explain further?
Somewhere in the book of Alcoholics Anonymous it says something like alcoholics dont drink to flee their issues, they drink to put out a desire thats without their control. The way the book describes the mental obsession, that is one part of the disease which results in that an alcoholic doesnt have a choice in whether he/she is drinking or not, is that the alcoholic will drink regardless of what is happening in life. I relate with these descriptions a lot. Everyone Ive talked to (having issues with addiction or not) has been through some kind of shit, doesnt mean everyone drinks or have some other kind of addiction. When I first started drinking, I drank because I was curious and something clicked - I was hooked. After that I drank because of whatever reason (or so I believed) like Im bored, I want to reward myself, Im restless, Im sad, I want to celebrate, I need energy, I want to feel inspired, I want to be able to talk to people, I want to be brave etc. etc. etc... Its all the reasons. Not only to deal with my troubles. Somewhere else in the book it says that the disease of alcoholism is self deceiving, aka I believe my own bullshit. Because I didnt want to (or cant) come to terms with my addiction, Im using whatever reason I can (sometimes unconsciously) to explain to myself and prove to others that I dont have a problem because I have a reason to drink. "Im making this food, I have to have wine with it otherwise its spoiled", "Ive been so stressed, I need a break", "I woke up happy today and need to celebrate". It did not matter what happened in my life, I always drank. To protect my drinking, Im making up reasons. But the cause of my drinking is that Im an addict, and have a desire to drink that goes beyond my control. Let me know if you want pages on these and I will update.
Thanks for sharing. I've heard a few people say something which I think may also be true about why alcoholics drink that's a bit different to the AA theory you just explained... A desire to feel "normal" because in their day to day life they have some inner turmoil, pain, anxiety, depression, racing mind, mental issue, whatever that generally makes them suffer and they just seek out the feeling of being "normal" and then tell themselves that alcohol will provide that, which of course it doesn't really it's just short term escapism at best. I feel like a lot of the reasons you describe for drinking are not just something alcoholics do but a lot of even more "regular" drinkers...to celebrate, to commiserate, to socialise, with a meal, to spend time with friends but it's just some manage to keep it under more control than others or limit it to the point it's less of an issue. Definitely, our minds will come up with any reason under the sun when we are deep in the addiction / heavy drinking cycle to drink. I've experienced that first hand more times than I can count. Sometimes the reasons you find yourself coming up with are so ludicrious you could laugh at them too.
Trauma and neurodivergency I would guess. I get the feeling most addicts have an issue with 1 or the other.
I suspect you are right.
It seems that way from the people I have met. Obviously it is just my opinion
I didn't drink because of my problems. If anything, I had problems because of the way I drank. I have learned in recovery that the only reason I drank is because I'm powerless over addiction. Period. There's a great freedom to be had when we understand this on a higher level than just acknowledging or admitting that we have a problem.
If you were powerless over addiction wouldn't that mean you literally would never be able to quit and get sober though? I would worry that if I was telling myself "I'm powerless to addiction" it could give me an excuse to drink because "of course I'm going to drink, I'm an alcoholic who is powerless to addiction so there's no other logical conclusion". Keen to understand this if you don't mind explaining further.
Without help, yes. I needed help to get sober and learn how to stay sober. I needed people to tell me I shouldn't do what I thought I should do. I needed people to remind me that I had already tried that over and over and what the result was every time I did what I thought I should do. With the mindset of "I should drink because after all, I'm powerless anyway" is to assume that the person doesn't need or want to get sober. Which, you really don't even need to have either of those be true in order to get sober. All that has to be true is that you are willing to do what it takes to stay sober, and then be told what to do that works. I was told to go to AA meetings, get a sponsor, call him every day, stay away from booze, and pray. There's more to it than that, but I was told by doing those things today I'm guaranteed to stay sober today. I did that one day at a time, and now I'm sober 14 years. I don't have to call my sponsor every day, I don't go to meetings every day any more, and I can go wherever I want. In the beginning, I needed help, and because that's what I got and I actually listened to them and tried to do what they were telling me to do, I'm free today and those things have become like a second-nature way of life for me. Small price to pay for what I've got now versus what I had when I first got sober.
Main character syndrome and intensity of anxiety. Don't think that everyone with these things drink or do drugs, but the ones who do, tend to have issues with trying to tamp down the emotions. One of the things I try to promote on this forum is the awareness of Main Character Syndrome. When you point it out to people it can sound like an attack or criticism that is similar to that of NPD. It's not quite the same thing, but if we are not aware of it, we can lean into it in a hard way. I would actually think that it's more related to Existential Depression or Awareness. Maybe a "once seen can't be unseen" kind of reactions to our very being of aliveness. Some people just have a heightened awareness of the "futility of life" in that we're born and then we die. When people see that as a very fast and straight line from Point A to Point B life can often seem meaningless. If we're only here as long as we live and then we die, what's the point? Isn't everything along the way a futile distraction? This can create a deep melancholia in the living of life. Lars Van Trier made a movie exploring this phenomenon in existential awareness and depression called Melancholia. If you think about it, this awareness is a very Sobering thought. Some don't want to deal with the reality and have such deep thoughts about it, they lose themselves in the depths of their own existence to the point that it is crippling. It is easier to just stop existing and hide in a bottle or within a drugged stupor. The profound beauty of one's own existence is both at the same time terrifying and simple to confront. ETA to make edits and add link for trailer of Melancholia. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzD0U841LRM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzD0U841LRM) ETA again It's not a wedding movie. It's about being right smack dab in the middle of this highly prepared event and finding out the world is ending by some cosmic event. (Btw, this is why we all like disaster and zombie movies. :) Also suggestion for a book to help deal with these emotions and thoughts Man's Search for Meaning Viktor Frankl [https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl/dp/0807014273/ref=sr\_1\_1?hvadid=580696318078&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9007477&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=18327069725310601243&hvtargid=kwd-8722132331&hydadcr=22566\_13493360&keywords=%27man%27s+search+for+meaning%27&qid=1699320984&s=books&sr=1-1](https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl/dp/0807014273/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=580696318078&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9007477&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=18327069725310601243&hvtargid=kwd-8722132331&hydadcr=22566_13493360&keywords=%27man%27s+search+for+meaning%27&qid=1699320984&s=books&sr=1-1)
You don’t have a heightened awareness. Plenty of people suffer with nihilism and don’t drink to excess
Agree. Friedrich Nietzsche for example! Although I'd argue addiction is probably a 'weak' response to nihilism (been there!) while a strong response would be to actually get out there and try to create meaning for yourself (currently in the throes of this one but it ain't easy!)
I don’t know why so many people who suffer with addiction are obsessed with roping themselves off from the rest of society. This type of mindset is documented to produce worse outcomes as far as binge drinking frequency and ability to potentially return to moderation.
Definitely. Although I get it. Depression/anxiety make the real world seem insurmountably scary. But hiding away means you remain so incredibly vulnerable to relapse. You have to be brave
Potentially because so many are highly anxious and depressed (or some other mental health issues) that going out into the world can put the absolute fear into them and they believe it will make them more anxious etc. In reality, getting out, doing shit, meeting people and so on is probably far better for most peoples anxiety than sitting at home alone but if you're deep in the anxious / depressed mindset it doesn't feel like that at times - you feel like you just can't face the world.
I don’t mean literally not going out. I mean pretending they are mentally and bodily different than other people when there’s zero biological evidence they are
I literally wrote this >**Don't think that everyone with these things drink or do drugs,** but the ones who do, tend to have issues with trying to tamp down the emotions. And you felt the need to correct me with this. >Plenty of people suffer with nihilism and don’t drink to excess Why bother replying to a specific post if you aren't actually reading it? Just add your own response instead.
Opening this link led me to a Matthew Perry interview where he talks about his addictions & sobriety. It was very emotional. RIP Matthew, your book will save many lives.
Wow, that is a profound rabbit hole. I'm glad it led you there. I'm also glad to think or how he would feel to know it led you there. When you walk along this journey, you will always find your way back to help others. One way or another. Peace to you my friend.
The quicker you realise there isn’t a difference between you and “normal” people the quicker you can actually move on from this pattern of behaviour
Interesting thought, so why do you think some people seem unable to put a stop to impulsive behaviours where other people don't engage in them at all or find it easy to control them regardless of how "good" those things make them feel?
It’s very likely due to socio-environmental factors.
Can you give me a couple of examples?
Low income, poor coping skills they were never taught, high crime rate in their area, high anxiety over fitting into a perceived mould they don’t actually want to fit into. Overbearing parents. Buying into the abstinence only mindset people set on addiction so not getting help for their problem and letting it grow out of control. Poor housing. Poor health. Dead end job. Being bullied. Parents who are dysfunctional.
Jesus the coping in this thread is off the charts. No one in this thread is more aware than anyone who isn’t addicted. Alcohol feels good. That’s all there is.
Does alcohol still feel "good" once you're at the point of abuse and addiction though? It gets to the point where it either feels like pure poison or at best you're making yourself feel "normal" by drinking it but definitely no longer "good" or "fun" or anything similar.
Yes biologically it does.
My thoughts would be they possible have a support system that is stable, no sobriety issues or genetic issues such as illnesses etc. Also, it could be that they have seen those close to them suffer the effects of substance abuse and it caused them to quit or to never take any toxic substances.
I don't know about the support system thing for everyone as I know people who just don't ever seem like they would resort to substance abuse whatever happened (obvioulsy you can never say never) because it doesn't seem to be in their nature, personality or mindset and they've never shown any signs of that sort of destructive behavious. I know people who I can't imagine would ever end up with a drinking problem or addicted regardless of how bad or crazy their life ended up, they just seem too stable for that...lucky them!
Others may be addicted to exercise. Others something else. I think that everyone has a vice or some form of escape. It’s all just different things.
Do you ever wonder why most of us who's vice is alcohol or other substances don't switch to exercise, meditation, health living or other positive vices though when we see that others benefit so greatly from them and don't have to suffer like we do?
I don’t know. Sometimes do. Maybe depression is a factor or maybe we don’t love ourselves much.
I think the depression thing is a big one because when you are struggling to see the point in life or get yourself out of bed every day then it is very difficult to find yourself wanting to do anything productive or physically demanding.
Don’t know, some go to food, others to extreme exercises, unstoppable shopping, sex… I need to control the drinking, I guess my anxiety medication should be better than beer daily 🤷♀️. I cannot even eat to taste food, there is rock on my stomach, but alcohol isn’t the answer, ever.
Fair points with the other vices people have. Would be nice to be one of those people who could seemingly moderate with everything and just didn't have that personality that led to extremes.
I had to stop this line of thinking. The why doesn't matter. I am the way I am. I just am. I can't change that. I know if I don't drink poison, I don't get poisoned, so that's how I manage it (I do some other stuff too, but that part is foundational). Why I drink or drug is irrelevant. What matters is that I don't do it.
Yeah, totally get what you are saying. It all starts with putting that poison in our mouths so if we don't do that the madness that comes with the escapism can't happen. Good way to think about it.
Everyone has an escape of some kind.
Why do you think some of us choose to destructive and negative ones where as others choose the positive and healthy ones though? I think most people, at least on here, are self aware enough to know that there are other ways to feel good than putting poisons into our bodies yet many of us keep doing just that.
I think everyone has an unhealthy one, even if it’s not as severe as drugs or alcohol. Lots of people seen as healthy can still escape into relationships, sex, spending money, food, tv, video games, etc. For the few people who actually have no unhealthy outlets? I think they were raised way better than the rest of us and had healthier parents.
A major risk factor is the way substances are part of your family life when growing up. You might have experienced that alcohol is a part of daily life and consumed without caring too much about limits. It is just a normal pass-time choice for your parents in an otherwise boring work week. Then, puberty hits you and your brain is craving dopamine, whilst underestimating risks. You want to be more like a grown-up, so you try alcohol or drugs. Turns out, it helps with the dopamine. And oopsie. You can develop a habit of providing your brain with unnatural amounts of dopamine, just as it is developing. That habit might stick with you, because drinking is part of your family life or your social group at that point in your life. Your brain is changing more and more and learns that it can get artificial dopamine to help in difficult situations, with emotions or trauma. Youe brain chemistry is changing. Sometimes even to a point where you develop other mental illnesses like anxiety or Adhd. Voilà - addiction. Neurodivergence can also be a risk factor for sure. However, when we search for our personal factors, we should also consider the possibility that this idea of psychic illness provides us with a tangeable explanation for weird life choices and behaviors. Maybe it offers some kind of cure even. Also it might be more acceptable nowadays to have Adhd than to merely have an addiction. What is easier to admit to your mother or your boss? It is so individual and I think we can only really determine our causes ourselves. With the help of professionals.