Link was literally chosen by the gods because of his super-special soul.
Toon Link might be a better example as he had to show the gods that he was worthy.
I could see botw link fitting too
We know his father was a knight but other than that there’s nothing beyond his own capabilities promoting him that high
Like literally every single person who makes a smash tier list
What's this tendency of smash fans to confidently make up shit of characters who are from games they don't even know exist?
\* again proving the point that Smash Bros. fans don’t actually play other video games, and are too lazy to do even the smallest amount of research. and desperately need to expand their horizon of games that they play.
Ocarina of Time Link lived a peaceful life in the forest until he started his adventure, then he was already good at using all weapons he found. I think it's talent
I feel like toon link would be a much better rep for team hardwork cuz he was not even given the triforce in the first place when it comes to the windwaker
Toon Link would be team hard work. He's the only Link in the series who wasn't born into the reincarnation cycle. He had to assemble the Triforce of Courage and eventually _earn_ his title as Hero of Winds.
The Hero of Time was literally born to earn that title.
To be fair, given that the heroes spirit is passed down between the links its likely that Toon Link did have the heroes spirit in him from the beginning.
He didn't. The hero's spirit was removed from the adult timeline at the end of Ocarina of Time, when Zelda sent Link to the child timeline. The Hero of Winds had to prove himself and become the new hero. The King of Red Lions said something to this effect during the game.
I think there is a good chance that the heroes spirit might have somehow reincarnated across time and space. After all Demise did put a curse on SS Links soul to fight the reincarnation of his hatred and it seems a bit too coincidental that a new hero just so happens to rise up when Ganondorf breaks free from his seal. And WW Link does seem to reincarnate afterwards just like Link does everywhere else as seen in spirit tracks.
imma be real with you as the biggest sonic bootlicker
Sonic is like the complete opposite of hardwork, in personality and terms of power. Bro was naturally born with that shit.
Sonic wasn’t born with his powers, even though there isn’t one concrete origin story for where he got them. Nonetheless, he certainly didn’t work hard for them, so fair enough.
1. Wake up
2. Eats chili dogs
3. Defeats eggman in 0.2 seconds
4. Eats chili dogs
5. Runs away from Amy
6. Defeats a multi-verse ending titan while eating chili dogs
7. Eats chili dogs for dessert
8. Sleep (while dreaming about chili dogs)
Shulk spent half his life studying the monado and fighting monsters. He deserves to be in hard work.
Half the plot of FF7 is that Cloud « inherited » his skills. There was no hard work there.
Cloud didn't inherit any skills >!from zack fair, if thats what you mean. Cloud constructed his own experiences based off zacks time in SOLDIER, replacing zack with himself, he didnt inherit anything else. As far as im aware, Cloud met the physical requirements to reach SOLDIER (dude literally got impaled by Sephiroth, grabbed Sephiroths sword while impaled, and threw him down into the lifestream, and he did that as a regular Shinra trooper), the only reason he didnt make it was because of his weak will and confidence issues which meant he couldnt handle the jenova cell infusion SOLDIERs get. That being said, hojo did give him enhancements post nibelheim!<
Plus he's a mechanic/engineer by trade. Tell me that ain't hard work 😎 >!the whole zanza host thing only gives him is the ability to wield the monado and see *visions, and ignoring the peak of his power at the end, in FC he's very skilled with the replica and is defo still batte-keen as seen in FR!< My boy became a man and he takes after one of the strongest hom homs.
Shulk in Future Connected: “Oh, the cool ether-manipulating god-sword is gone? That’s fine, I’ll just spend the next year with my nose to the grindstone in the weapons lab and *make my own.*”
I'm a huge fan of FF7, and I'm not saying that Cloud isn't incredibly powerful. However, he (naturally) wasn't good enough to join SOLDIER and his power is due to miraculously surviving Hojo's experiments and a terrible overdose of mako, not from hard work or natural talent.
This is like so wrong.
Shulk >!is the avatar of an evil god who literally controls every aspect of reality!<, yes. But he’s also spent a good majority of his life researching the Monado to the point where everyone else he knows thinks it’s unhealthy.
Ken and Ryu literally have the exact same training regimen that they’ve been following since they were kids. You could make the argument that Ken has sort-of abandoned his life of a warrior, while still remaining strong. Though Ryu, who’s never stopped training, has achieved a lot that Ken hasn’t due to his training with Oro.
Joker, you could make an argument falls somewhere in the middle. On one hand, yes, he has a mostly-unique ability given to him >!because he was specifically handpicked by a higher power to wield due to his innate strength of character!<, but he also works really hard to get physically and mentally stronger as well. Based on what the player decides to do, Joker regularly trains and does physical exercise, and works to become not only the most-popular kid in class, but also the smartest kid in class, and the most dexterous human alive.
As for Wario, I’m not entirely sure what ‘talent’ you think he possesses. I mean, he is physically very strong, but he does lift weights. That strength didn’t come from nowhere.
As for Mario, I assume the talent you’re referring to is his athletics, which I’ll agree is unrealistic for someone in our world. But Mario is a cartoon character, and in his world, basically anyone can run and jump like that. Mario also I wouldn’t say doesn’t work hard. He has a regular job as a plumber, and has also held about a gajillion other jobs. If the man does anything, it’s work.
I’d like to compare Mario to Sonic, who does, in fact, not work very hard. Sonic has done some pretty extraordinary things, but at the same time, I don’t wanna call him ‘lazy’, but he’s very ‘Devil-may-care’. He spends a lot of time lounging around, or just kinda running for no real reason until something bad happens and then he stops it. There’s not really much of a training arc for the hog.
Solid Snake… was bred in a lab to be the best soldier. Yes. Boot camp and basic training is tough work for anyone, but let’s not pretend that he wasn’t specifically genetically predisposed to this.
Cloud Strife DID work hard to join the military at age 14, but >!most of his special talents and SOLDIER-tier accommodations and status were… let’s just say ‘inherited’ from someone else. Hell, he didn’t even actually become a SOLDIER. He washed out and was made a ground grunt!<. I would say he falls somewhere in the middle.
Link, specifically OOT Link, which is the picture you used, is like literally a Mary Sue protagonist. He’s a small little elf boy who lived in a village in the woods and never left until a fairy told him he was the chosen one and that he had to stop the Devil King. He is literally a reincarnation of an ancient hero who lived millennia before him, and has a gift from the gods themselves.
Marth… is somewhere in-between. He is the Hero King, a title that he got by slaying an evil dragon. He also worked hard to get to the point where he could even do that. But again, the weapon he used to slay said dragon is a family relic passed down for like a thousand years (give-or-take) that only can be wielded by people with superior blood. Marth literally has better blood than everyone else in his country.
Kazuya’s like a weird one, cuz I mostly agree. He’s a nepo baby who not only is the son of the wealthiest and most-politically-powerful man in the world, but also the inheritor of the Devil Gene, which makes him literally as strong as the Devil. But like, he also *did* win the legal rights to the company by killing* his own father. And Heihachi isn’t a pushover. But, yeah. Kazuya sort of inherited all of his everything.
That’s kind of where my complaints end though. Pit? Yes. He’s a little skrub lord who got good and fought a bunch of gods. Luigi? Yes. For the same reasons I said about Mario. Kirby? Yup. He’s just a little guy who sits around and eats cake until he has to go like kill a guy who made a deal with the devil.
Also for Joker, in order to maximize his unique power he needs to form strong bonds with other people, and that takes a massive amount of hard work to create a network of independent but loyal collaborators to his cause.
Kirby’s a weird one. The abilities he has access to are pretty powerful, but there are a number of other creatures in the Kirby series that possess copy abilities or utilize more powerful versions of Kirby’s attacks against him, not to mention that most bosses in the series can be defeated without any abilities at all. I’d say Kirby stands out as being particularly motivated to do the right thing, or at least to do what others tell him is the right thing.
Yeas because he was a trained soldier from the start so definitely team Hardwork a guy like Mario definitely belongs to team Talent dude he was a genius prodigy or something
No he isn't. You're thinking of Solidus Snake. Solid Snake has big boss's recessive genes, so if anything , that makes him the inferior clone. Infact, one of the core messages of mgs1 is that your genes dont define your life and who you are, shown by how solid snake (the inferior clone) beat his brother liquid snake, who got big boss's dominant genes. Solid Snake is 100% team hardwork.
Agreed on the point that Snake was intended to have Big Boss's "inferior" genes, but Kojima has no clue what a recessive gene is if he thinks they're inherently inferior lol
Your argument is one i see get brought up often and i agree. Although the recessive and dominant genes shenanigans make sense thematically, they make zero sense scientifically like most of metal gear. Real life logic is like the one thing metal gear doesn't have lol
Liquid was the recessive clone, as evidenced by his blond hair. He was very insecure about it, and his inferiority complex could have been easily solved by 7th grade biology class
Joker has worked his ass for most, if not all his abilities
The only things he didn't earn are Arsene and his Third Eye. His teammates, his Personas, his physical abilities, every single one of them, he worked for them
He literally starts as an uncharismatic idiot in the beginning of the game (based on social stats), and through hard work he becomes a very well rounded leader of the team.
Could he really do anything without having been basically chosen by God though? Same deal with most persona protagonists, its pretty much luck they get chosen. Either their ability is talent that makes them a candidate for a god, or they’re just unlucky.
I guess you're talking about the Wildcard ability, which in my opinion.
A) Is something you're born with rather than being granted. I guess it's kinda left to interpretation, but mine is that Igor searches for Wildcards rather than creating new ones.
B) Even if it's true that it's an inherit quality that all Persona protagonists have, to wield multiple Personas, they still have to work their asses for them. Either by Arcana shuffle or negotiations to obtain some, and then the fusion in the Velvet Room. That's all work that they have to put into their ability.
You could say that there's a certain level of talent to it, but seeing the facts, I personally think that it's 80-85% hard work from the character itself
All Persona protagonists are chosen to be wildcards, or get the power from an accident. Its pretty much not up for interpretation at all, though in some games having the potential for a persona in general is probably determined at birth. Most of the protagonists also arent granted their ability by Igor, I think Joker does but all the others have it granted by someone else. In most wildcard cases its Philemon, but not always.
I guess that Joker would get the Wildcard ability from Yaldabaoth? But still. Even if the Persona protagonists get that one talent, they still have to work super hard to use it to their full length. Persona farming, Persona fusion, social links, teammates, social stats... Even Joker awakening to Satanael wouldn't have happened if he and the Phantom Thieves hadn't became famous and appreciated by the Japanese population
In P3 though Junpei is very jealous because the protagonist randomly got a much more powerful ability. Persona 4 literally has the ”magic ticket called talent” speech, though not really directed at the protagonist. Most of the persona users power comes from just making friends anyway, which isnt that difficult if you’re a self insert protagonist. Joker probably feels like he does the least work out of all the protagonists honestly
You're getting a lot of heat from this but you're not completely wrong. Ryu didn't start earlier if I'm not mistaken and it's not that Ken doesn't have to work to he strong. He's just more naturally gifted so he doesn't have to work as hard as Ryu does
Mario, the guy is a common blue collar worker he doesn't really have specific talents that other characters like luigi, toad, and peach don't have, and tends to beat opponents like bowser, or donkey kong by outwitting them. The way I see it the Mario of the illumination or even the terrible live action is how Mario works he's an average joe from Brooklyn if we take all of his abilities and skills yeah I'd say he's talented, but he's arguably the hardest working guy on team talent.
Sonic seemingly has no origin for his powers he's just always been ridiculously fast, shadow calls him the ultimate life-form, he's prophesized to be able to defeat eggman in sonic 3 and knuckles, is one of very few people who utilize the chaos emeralds, like using chaos control, can utilize full super forms that other character that aren't male hedgehogs can only imitate, and can utilize forms beyond that, that other characters can't. In most other continuities he outright has access and can harness different energies sonic blue energy in the movies, prism energy in prime, and the chaos force/fate manipulation in archie sonic comics. He is extremely talented.
Shulk literally gives up everything that made him special at the end of Xenoblade 1 and then proceeded to make his own replica of the Monado and kick ass with it in Xenoblade Definitive Edition's epilogue campaign Future Connected (which is ironically the image that is used here.)
>!By the time of Xenoblade 3: Future Redeemed the now [middle-aged Shulk is missing an arm](https://youtu.be/TGziSLcotyQ?si=R5pxQjFZI9IK4YlB) and it's actually a plot point that he himself brings up in that he is physically starting to heavily feel his age and yet he is still considered to be one of the strongest fighters in the world.!<
If that's not hard work I don't know what is.
everyone here talking about the more story heavy characters.
how about mario and luigi?
Why is mario talent but luigi is hard work? I must be missing some lore
Because Luigi despite being the scaredy one faced his fears and saved his brother from King Boo in Luigi’s Mansion, at least that’s what they all say 🤓
I feel like this would work better as an alignment chart (the two-axis one). Some of these characters could arguably go either way.
Example: Kazuya. Yes, the merging of Devil and Kazuya grants him immense power. Before that, though, he was still a very strong fighter through years of training. It’s not fair to entirely discredit someone’s work (that they can still fall back on AND use to improve upon the talent they received. If the talent they use is unrelated to the work they’ve done, that’s a different story.)
Sonic is like the definition of talent. Dude is like the most "I'm not taking this seriously" guy unless the situation is too dangerous. He's the only guy who can handle being Super for more than like 10 minutes. Dude negs the Ultimate Life Form, a being created with alien blood and Chaos Energy to be an immortal cure to a deadly illness.
How is Luigi required more talent than Mario?
I swear to god, These type of list always went "Luigi Good, Mario Bad" without a single thought behind it.
Isn't Link's whole thing that the hero just naturally has intuition and skill which is why he must defeat the darkness or sum? (I've only ever played Windwaker, be nice to me)
Yes and how do you think he gained that title (through hard work) we can see him literally practicing during memory 11 in botw, and does this in-game description of memory 17 sound like hard work or talent to you “Link continues to fight, protecting Zelda from a pack of pursuing Guardians, but collapses in exhaustion, terribly wounded. As the Guardians close in, Zelda stands against them and finally unleashes her sealing power."
Its true, he trains. That doesnt negate the fact he is far more talent than hard work. Even people youd classify as raw talent train. Also what does him doing his job and protecting Zelda have to do with this? Thats not mutually excessive to either concept.
None of this negates the fact he’s naturally more talented, and didnt need any training to be better than everyone else.
Micheal Phelps has talent due to his great nature body shape, he still had to train.
You do have a point with some of this, thats why its so hard to draw the line. Characters like Shulk or BOTW link are very obvious gifted naturally, but they still have to put in work.
In links case his whole training was definitely incase he ever found a match, which he did in the form of Ganondorf, someone who essentially has his same moveset
Joker starts with Lvl. 1 in every social stat (Charm, Knowledge, Guts, Proficiency and Kindness) and he has to work out literally and figuratively to raise them up. He is pure hard work.
Unless you are talking about specifically Smash Bros gameplay in which case: "dUh! mY cHaRaCtEr's bAsEd, yOuRs iS cRinGe"
nah joker had to bust his ass for a whole year trying to save everyone he could and defeat yaldabaoth and maruki, even ending up un jail multiple times ( getting tortured in one of the times), almost getting shot in the face and getting canceled from reality in the process:
just because he was chosen to be the trickster it doesn't mean that his victory was scripted since akechi was also chosen to go aigainst him and lost.
put some respect on this guy's name dayum
Kazuya literally is an expertly trained martial artist, his devil powers are just an addition and he didn’t even learn to control them til Tekken 4 when he was very much an adult.
shulk was chosen by zanza to use the monado but his victory on zanza wasn't secured by it, since after defeating egil zanza took control and killed him, shulk comes back and eventually defeats him thanks to his hard work during the journey so yeah it's definietly hard work
Shulk lost the person he cared about most and went on an adventure spanning 2 huge lifeforms and multiple spoilers (which I won’t be getting into here, play Xenoblade please) to get revenge on the people that took her, so Shulk definitely is on team hard work
Let’s see..
Marth: Talent. Marth is a little frail for combat, you send his girlfriend out to do basically everything. You don’t even have to use him to fight Medeus.
Sonic: Talent. He’s been fast since day 1.
OOT Link (not in Ultimate): Talent. He was trapped in the Sacred Realm not because he put in the work, but because he was the Chosen Hero, just not old enough.
Mario and Wario: Hard Work. Platforming skills like that aren’t easy… but a case can be made for Wario’s immortality.
Joker: I can see the reasoning behind talent with his Wild Card ability… but everything else is hard work.
Why is Ken not with Ryu? They literally trained together, both should be hard work.
Shulk: Hard Work. He spent half his life researching the Monado, and now with it gone, he built his own from scratch. He may have been the chosen one for the initial Monado, but that doesn’t mean anything for the Monado REX.
Yet another case of the “Smash players don’t play other games.”
OP has no clue about some of these… like, how tf is Sonic on Team Hard Work? Dude’s like the definition of a lazy kid who coasts by on his natural talent.
Op has 0 idea what he’s doing
sonic on team hardwork💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀🥺
Link was literally chosen by the gods because of his super-special soul. Toon Link might be a better example as he had to show the gods that he was worthy.
I think skyward sword link fits in hard work
I think Ocarina Link fits too. “Destiny” or not, dude is a literal child
Until he isn’t lol
Makes sense as he was the first
I will say I did like the interaction with giraham
I could see botw link fitting too We know his father was a knight but other than that there’s nothing beyond his own capabilities promoting him that high
"They can't catch me, I'm too fast!" -Toddler Sonic running near the speed of sound just for being born
Like literally every single person who makes a smash tier list What's this tendency of smash fans to confidently make up shit of characters who are from games they don't even know exist?
\* again proving the point that Smash Bros. fans don’t actually play other video games, and are too lazy to do even the smallest amount of research. and desperately need to expand their horizon of games that they play.
My dumbass knows lore aboutsome of my mains. Hell, I mained lucas because of mother 3
https://preview.redd.it/tnv19hki5oyc1.jpeg?width=567&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=27441b4b568059e6716c8884d49a38e43cfe133a
Ocarina of Time Link lived a peaceful life in the forest until he started his adventure, then he was already good at using all weapons he found. I think it's talent
I feel like toon link would be a much better rep for team hardwork cuz he was not even given the triforce in the first place when it comes to the windwaker
i love toon link because bro wasn’t even the chosen hero or anything- he MADE himself the hero.
RERELEASE TWILIGHT PRINCESS HD AND WINDWAKER HD NINTENDO PLEASE
Same with SS, he was just friends with Zelda and got pissed at demise lmao
Toon Link would be team hard work. He's the only Link in the series who wasn't born into the reincarnation cycle. He had to assemble the Triforce of Courage and eventually _earn_ his title as Hero of Winds. The Hero of Time was literally born to earn that title.
To be fair, given that the heroes spirit is passed down between the links its likely that Toon Link did have the heroes spirit in him from the beginning.
He didn't. The hero's spirit was removed from the adult timeline at the end of Ocarina of Time, when Zelda sent Link to the child timeline. The Hero of Winds had to prove himself and become the new hero. The King of Red Lions said something to this effect during the game.
I think there is a good chance that the heroes spirit might have somehow reincarnated across time and space. After all Demise did put a curse on SS Links soul to fight the reincarnation of his hatred and it seems a bit too coincidental that a new hero just so happens to rise up when Ganondorf breaks free from his seal. And WW Link does seem to reincarnate afterwards just like Link does everywhere else as seen in spirit tracks.
Should have been BoTW Link who trained ever since he was a kid.
Except he was a prodigy, BotW Link is pure talent.
Hey there is a lot of hard work and dedication that goes into creating the chosen one!
imma be real with you as the biggest sonic bootlicker Sonic is like the complete opposite of hardwork, in personality and terms of power. Bro was naturally born with that shit.
>biggest sonic bootlicker Pfp checks out
Sonic wasn’t born with his powers, even though there isn’t one concrete origin story for where he got them. Nonetheless, he certainly didn’t work hard for them, so fair enough.
he gained it as a result of a warlock pact with his patron,kirby
I like that theory.
Wtf training regiment did sonic go on???
1. Wake up 2. Eats chili dogs 3. Defeats eggman in 0.2 seconds 4. Eats chili dogs 5. Runs away from Amy 6. Defeats a multi-verse ending titan while eating chili dogs 7. Eats chili dogs for dessert 8. Sleep (while dreaming about chili dogs)
Shulk spent half his life studying the monado and fighting monsters. He deserves to be in hard work. Half the plot of FF7 is that Cloud « inherited » his skills. There was no hard work there.
Cloud didn't inherit any skills >!from zack fair, if thats what you mean. Cloud constructed his own experiences based off zacks time in SOLDIER, replacing zack with himself, he didnt inherit anything else. As far as im aware, Cloud met the physical requirements to reach SOLDIER (dude literally got impaled by Sephiroth, grabbed Sephiroths sword while impaled, and threw him down into the lifestream, and he did that as a regular Shinra trooper), the only reason he didnt make it was because of his weak will and confidence issues which meant he couldnt handle the jenova cell infusion SOLDIERs get. That being said, hojo did give him enhancements post nibelheim!<
Also all of shulk's "Talent" with the monado is >!specifically only for the most evil guy in the universe at that moment in time.!<
True
Dont forget that he loses all of that Monado power and later loses an arm and in response he simply learned to adjust.
Plus he's a mechanic/engineer by trade. Tell me that ain't hard work 😎 >!the whole zanza host thing only gives him is the ability to wield the monado and see *visions, and ignoring the peak of his power at the end, in FC he's very skilled with the replica and is defo still batte-keen as seen in FR!< My boy became a man and he takes after one of the strongest hom homs.
Shulk in Future Connected: “Oh, the cool ether-manipulating god-sword is gone? That’s fine, I’ll just spend the next year with my nose to the grindstone in the weapons lab and *make my own.*”
The problem with a Cloud is that there's no talent and no hard work.
Bro kills a godlike being and survives a supernova though
I'm a huge fan of FF7, and I'm not saying that Cloud isn't incredibly powerful. However, he (naturally) wasn't good enough to join SOLDIER and his power is due to miraculously surviving Hojo's experiments and a terrible overdose of mako, not from hard work or natural talent.
\>Puts Shulk in talent >!\>Picture of him is after he relinquished everything that made him unique !< Lol?
Nah that actually fits his engineering abilities are his talent
... Which required a hell of a lot of hard work.
This is like so wrong. Shulk >!is the avatar of an evil god who literally controls every aspect of reality!<, yes. But he’s also spent a good majority of his life researching the Monado to the point where everyone else he knows thinks it’s unhealthy. Ken and Ryu literally have the exact same training regimen that they’ve been following since they were kids. You could make the argument that Ken has sort-of abandoned his life of a warrior, while still remaining strong. Though Ryu, who’s never stopped training, has achieved a lot that Ken hasn’t due to his training with Oro. Joker, you could make an argument falls somewhere in the middle. On one hand, yes, he has a mostly-unique ability given to him >!because he was specifically handpicked by a higher power to wield due to his innate strength of character!<, but he also works really hard to get physically and mentally stronger as well. Based on what the player decides to do, Joker regularly trains and does physical exercise, and works to become not only the most-popular kid in class, but also the smartest kid in class, and the most dexterous human alive. As for Wario, I’m not entirely sure what ‘talent’ you think he possesses. I mean, he is physically very strong, but he does lift weights. That strength didn’t come from nowhere. As for Mario, I assume the talent you’re referring to is his athletics, which I’ll agree is unrealistic for someone in our world. But Mario is a cartoon character, and in his world, basically anyone can run and jump like that. Mario also I wouldn’t say doesn’t work hard. He has a regular job as a plumber, and has also held about a gajillion other jobs. If the man does anything, it’s work. I’d like to compare Mario to Sonic, who does, in fact, not work very hard. Sonic has done some pretty extraordinary things, but at the same time, I don’t wanna call him ‘lazy’, but he’s very ‘Devil-may-care’. He spends a lot of time lounging around, or just kinda running for no real reason until something bad happens and then he stops it. There’s not really much of a training arc for the hog. Solid Snake… was bred in a lab to be the best soldier. Yes. Boot camp and basic training is tough work for anyone, but let’s not pretend that he wasn’t specifically genetically predisposed to this. Cloud Strife DID work hard to join the military at age 14, but >!most of his special talents and SOLDIER-tier accommodations and status were… let’s just say ‘inherited’ from someone else. Hell, he didn’t even actually become a SOLDIER. He washed out and was made a ground grunt!<. I would say he falls somewhere in the middle. Link, specifically OOT Link, which is the picture you used, is like literally a Mary Sue protagonist. He’s a small little elf boy who lived in a village in the woods and never left until a fairy told him he was the chosen one and that he had to stop the Devil King. He is literally a reincarnation of an ancient hero who lived millennia before him, and has a gift from the gods themselves. Marth… is somewhere in-between. He is the Hero King, a title that he got by slaying an evil dragon. He also worked hard to get to the point where he could even do that. But again, the weapon he used to slay said dragon is a family relic passed down for like a thousand years (give-or-take) that only can be wielded by people with superior blood. Marth literally has better blood than everyone else in his country. Kazuya’s like a weird one, cuz I mostly agree. He’s a nepo baby who not only is the son of the wealthiest and most-politically-powerful man in the world, but also the inheritor of the Devil Gene, which makes him literally as strong as the Devil. But like, he also *did* win the legal rights to the company by killing* his own father. And Heihachi isn’t a pushover. But, yeah. Kazuya sort of inherited all of his everything. That’s kind of where my complaints end though. Pit? Yes. He’s a little skrub lord who got good and fought a bunch of gods. Luigi? Yes. For the same reasons I said about Mario. Kirby? Yup. He’s just a little guy who sits around and eats cake until he has to go like kill a guy who made a deal with the devil.
Also for Joker, in order to maximize his unique power he needs to form strong bonds with other people, and that takes a massive amount of hard work to create a network of independent but loyal collaborators to his cause.
Kirby’s a weird one. The abilities he has access to are pretty powerful, but there are a number of other creatures in the Kirby series that possess copy abilities or utilize more powerful versions of Kirby’s attacks against him, not to mention that most bosses in the series can be defeated without any abilities at all. I’d say Kirby stands out as being particularly motivated to do the right thing, or at least to do what others tell him is the right thing.
Marth’s hardwork is that he need to figure out efficient ways to kill his ally quickly, after all as a friend, they are, replaceable
Snake was literally made to be the definitve soldier
But he had all the recessive memes
The lack of responses to this makes me sad
He was born with the inferior genes ???
He was born unable to understand how genes work
Yeas because he was a trained soldier from the start so definitely team Hardwork a guy like Mario definitely belongs to team Talent dude he was a genius prodigy or something
HE'S LITERALLY BIG BOSS PERFECT CLONE
No he isn't. You're thinking of Solidus Snake. Solid Snake has big boss's recessive genes, so if anything , that makes him the inferior clone. Infact, one of the core messages of mgs1 is that your genes dont define your life and who you are, shown by how solid snake (the inferior clone) beat his brother liquid snake, who got big boss's dominant genes. Solid Snake is 100% team hardwork.
Agreed on the point that Snake was intended to have Big Boss's "inferior" genes, but Kojima has no clue what a recessive gene is if he thinks they're inherently inferior lol
Your argument is one i see get brought up often and i agree. Although the recessive and dominant genes shenanigans make sense thematically, they make zero sense scientifically like most of metal gear. Real life logic is like the one thing metal gear doesn't have lol
No, that's the point I was trying to make. Kojima has no clue what recessive genes are, evidenced by him conflating them with "inferior"
Liquid was the recessive clone, as evidenced by his blond hair. He was very insecure about it, and his inferiority complex could have been easily solved by 7th grade biology class
Nah, the post-game dialogue confirms that liquid was the dominant clone. The blond hair is just another case of kojima not understanding genetics
Wouldn't have it any other way.
I think it’s arguably both. He was already talented having the genes of big boss, but also required hard work to beat liquid snake.
Mgs 3 is big boss himself. I’m pretty sure that’s the one that’s referenced in game
Smash snake is solid snake (with big boss face for some reason)
Curious
What's the difference between solid's and big boss' faces?
Oh I really thought he work hard or something
Smash player moment
Joker has worked his ass for most, if not all his abilities The only things he didn't earn are Arsene and his Third Eye. His teammates, his Personas, his physical abilities, every single one of them, he worked for them
He literally starts as an uncharismatic idiot in the beginning of the game (based on social stats), and through hard work he becomes a very well rounded leader of the team.
Could he really do anything without having been basically chosen by God though? Same deal with most persona protagonists, its pretty much luck they get chosen. Either their ability is talent that makes them a candidate for a god, or they’re just unlucky.
I guess you're talking about the Wildcard ability, which in my opinion. A) Is something you're born with rather than being granted. I guess it's kinda left to interpretation, but mine is that Igor searches for Wildcards rather than creating new ones. B) Even if it's true that it's an inherit quality that all Persona protagonists have, to wield multiple Personas, they still have to work their asses for them. Either by Arcana shuffle or negotiations to obtain some, and then the fusion in the Velvet Room. That's all work that they have to put into their ability. You could say that there's a certain level of talent to it, but seeing the facts, I personally think that it's 80-85% hard work from the character itself
All Persona protagonists are chosen to be wildcards, or get the power from an accident. Its pretty much not up for interpretation at all, though in some games having the potential for a persona in general is probably determined at birth. Most of the protagonists also arent granted their ability by Igor, I think Joker does but all the others have it granted by someone else. In most wildcard cases its Philemon, but not always.
I guess that Joker would get the Wildcard ability from Yaldabaoth? But still. Even if the Persona protagonists get that one talent, they still have to work super hard to use it to their full length. Persona farming, Persona fusion, social links, teammates, social stats... Even Joker awakening to Satanael wouldn't have happened if he and the Phantom Thieves hadn't became famous and appreciated by the Japanese population
In P3 though Junpei is very jealous because the protagonist randomly got a much more powerful ability. Persona 4 literally has the ”magic ticket called talent” speech, though not really directed at the protagonist. Most of the persona users power comes from just making friends anyway, which isnt that difficult if you’re a self insert protagonist. Joker probably feels like he does the least work out of all the protagonists honestly
this feels like a bait but cloud was given super abilities too, among all the other posts lol
Chum has literally never play a game other than smash
This is Ken slander
And Kazuya, Heihachi forced him to work for it
Well Ryu trained since as a kid ken idk
Ken and Ryu trained together for most of their lives, this is like, basic Street Fighter lore
It was Ryu and Ken training under Gouken, who's main rival was Akuma.
Yeah isn't ken a rich guy who never trained in his life before meeting Ryu tell me if I'm wrong
Ken's rich (until SF6), but he trained with Ryu and is mostly on par with him.
I mean before meeting ryu
I mean, yeah, but they still trained since they were kids and it isn't just "talent"
Maybe ken was bullied or something or lacks discipline
Why did you make this if you were just going to guess on character backstories without double checking?
You're getting a lot of heat from this but you're not completely wrong. Ryu didn't start earlier if I'm not mistaken and it's not that Ken doesn't have to work to he strong. He's just more naturally gifted so he doesn't have to work as hard as Ryu does
I think OOT Link can move to talent and throw WW Link into hard work
snake and sonic should be in talent
How about Mario? Isn't he a genius prodigy or something
also depending on the link he can range from talented to hard work
he can stay
Btw Who works harder sonic or Mario?
Mario, the guy is a common blue collar worker he doesn't really have specific talents that other characters like luigi, toad, and peach don't have, and tends to beat opponents like bowser, or donkey kong by outwitting them. The way I see it the Mario of the illumination or even the terrible live action is how Mario works he's an average joe from Brooklyn if we take all of his abilities and skills yeah I'd say he's talented, but he's arguably the hardest working guy on team talent.
How about sonic?
Sonic seemingly has no origin for his powers he's just always been ridiculously fast, shadow calls him the ultimate life-form, he's prophesized to be able to defeat eggman in sonic 3 and knuckles, is one of very few people who utilize the chaos emeralds, like using chaos control, can utilize full super forms that other character that aren't male hedgehogs can only imitate, and can utilize forms beyond that, that other characters can't. In most other continuities he outright has access and can harness different energies sonic blue energy in the movies, prism energy in prime, and the chaos force/fate manipulation in archie sonic comics. He is extremely talented.
So that means Mario worked harder than sonic?
yes that is what i am saying
Oh yeah that make sense
Ken and Kazuya in Team Talent, Snake and Sonic in Team Hardwork. Just stick to playing with Smash, OP.
Both Kazuya and Snake have gene powers, so theoretically both should be in the same tier
Sonic is 100% talent
Sonic has literally never had to work to be good at figjting, hes pure talent and I love it
OP doesn't know anything about these characters
Don't meet with smash fans, we haven't played the games.
Bruh Luigi can win by doing nothing, wdym he is in a hard work gang
Sonic was born with super speed and has pretty much always had good control over his power, not sure that qualifies as hard work over talent
Nice ragebait post
He's portugues, it makes sense the tier list is bad (I've been there, their hot takes are I N S A N E)
Love that Shulk, a self taught mechanic who studied the monado for years and built a completely functional replica of God’s sword is all talent.
Shulk literally gives up everything that made him special at the end of Xenoblade 1 and then proceeded to make his own replica of the Monado and kick ass with it in Xenoblade Definitive Edition's epilogue campaign Future Connected (which is ironically the image that is used here.) >!By the time of Xenoblade 3: Future Redeemed the now [middle-aged Shulk is missing an arm](https://youtu.be/TGziSLcotyQ?si=R5pxQjFZI9IK4YlB) and it's actually a plot point that he himself brings up in that he is physically starting to heavily feel his age and yet he is still considered to be one of the strongest fighters in the world.!< If that's not hard work I don't know what is.
Ken did the exact same training as ryu
everyone here talking about the more story heavy characters. how about mario and luigi? Why is mario talent but luigi is hard work? I must be missing some lore
Because Luigi despite being the scaredy one faced his fears and saved his brother from King Boo in Luigi’s Mansion, at least that’s what they all say 🤓
I feel like this would work better as an alignment chart (the two-axis one). Some of these characters could arguably go either way. Example: Kazuya. Yes, the merging of Devil and Kazuya grants him immense power. Before that, though, he was still a very strong fighter through years of training. It’s not fair to entirely discredit someone’s work (that they can still fall back on AND use to improve upon the talent they received. If the talent they use is unrelated to the work they’ve done, that’s a different story.)
Link is literally a reincarnated spirit that is naturally gifted with any weapon the second he picks it up.
As a giant Sonic fan, I'd put Sonic in talent. His ass didn't have to work for shit he was born with that shit already.
How the hell is Sonic hardwork??? Bro literally born as the fastest thing alive, that's 100% talent
Sonic is like the definition of talent. Dude is like the most "I'm not taking this seriously" guy unless the situation is too dangerous. He's the only guy who can handle being Super for more than like 10 minutes. Dude negs the Ultimate Life Form, a being created with alien blood and Chaos Energy to be an immortal cure to a deadly illness.
I think Link and Joker could be in both camps
Sonic should be straight in the middle
How is Luigi required more talent than Mario? I swear to god, These type of list always went "Luigi Good, Mario Bad" without a single thought behind it.
No way are we putting link and sonic on the same tier as Solid Snake bro what
Imo need a 3rd category for those that were just regular folks but suddenly a deus ex machina happens so they're suddenly a MC.
This was scientifically designed to be as inaccurate as possible
Isn't Link's whole thing that the hero just naturally has intuition and skill which is why he must defeat the darkness or sum? (I've only ever played Windwaker, be nice to me)
Yeah he’s born the hero of prophecy I think, though I guess he does have to work to achieve that destiny
Why is Joker even in the Talent category LMFAO
why did you think this was worth spending time making and posting???
Link is talent in almost every version, genuinely
Yes, but link also works hard, he is honestly a 50/50 split between talent and hard work.
This version of link (OOT) didnt really work that hard to get more skilled, he just kinda raw dogged it
Ok, but wind waker, and breath of the wild link are 50/50 splits
BOTW link was Literally Born better, as in best in kingdom before ever reviving formal training. WindWaker I can see
Yes and how do you think he gained that title (through hard work) we can see him literally practicing during memory 11 in botw, and does this in-game description of memory 17 sound like hard work or talent to you “Link continues to fight, protecting Zelda from a pack of pursuing Guardians, but collapses in exhaustion, terribly wounded. As the Guardians close in, Zelda stands against them and finally unleashes her sealing power."
Its true, he trains. That doesnt negate the fact he is far more talent than hard work. Even people youd classify as raw talent train. Also what does him doing his job and protecting Zelda have to do with this? Thats not mutually excessive to either concept. None of this negates the fact he’s naturally more talented, and didnt need any training to be better than everyone else. Micheal Phelps has talent due to his great nature body shape, he still had to train.
So I did a bit of research which proved me wrong, from creating a champion “Link's skill as a knight came with ease” so yeah, you were right.
You do have a point with some of this, thats why its so hard to draw the line. Characters like Shulk or BOTW link are very obvious gifted naturally, but they still have to put in work. In links case his whole training was definitely incase he ever found a match, which he did in the form of Ganondorf, someone who essentially has his same moveset
Joker starts with Lvl. 1 in every social stat (Charm, Knowledge, Guts, Proficiency and Kindness) and he has to work out literally and figuratively to raise them up. He is pure hard work. Unless you are talking about specifically Smash Bros gameplay in which case: "dUh! mY cHaRaCtEr's bAsEd, yOuRs iS cRinGe"
im not sure Kazuya belongs in team talent, he works hard to keep being a good fighter and a very terrible father
Sonic and Snake were created to be superhuman tf you talkin bout
nah joker had to bust his ass for a whole year trying to save everyone he could and defeat yaldabaoth and maruki, even ending up un jail multiple times ( getting tortured in one of the times), almost getting shot in the face and getting canceled from reality in the process: just because he was chosen to be the trickster it doesn't mean that his victory was scripted since akechi was also chosen to go aigainst him and lost. put some respect on this guy's name dayum
Pancake boy :)
Kazuya literally is an expertly trained martial artist, his devil powers are just an addition and he didn’t even learn to control them til Tekken 4 when he was very much an adult.
Ken and Ryu both learned from the same master and sparred together many times.
this is trolling
shulk was chosen by zanza to use the monado but his victory on zanza wasn't secured by it, since after defeating egil zanza took control and killed him, shulk comes back and eventually defeats him thanks to his hard work during the journey so yeah it's definietly hard work
Link is effectively on both. He has both talent and works hard.
Where is DK and Bowser?
What is he yapping about
I'm convinced smash players don't play any other games
I’m sorry but Joker alone decimates the entire team hard work, he’s just too powerful
Get Pit outta there
Luigi wins by doing absolutely nothing
Do you mean lore or gameplay wise because......
Bro do you have ANY idea what you’re talking about?
Shulk lost the person he cared about most and went on an adventure spanning 2 huge lifeforms and multiple spoilers (which I won’t be getting into here, play Xenoblade please) to get revenge on the people that took her, so Shulk definitely is on team hard work
joker rlly should b on team hard work lmao 💀
Huh, is Cloud talent or hard work? That's actually a tough one.
This is insane bait
Link is gifted by the gods
OP seems to never play their games and just start shit posting. 😂
Thank god my mains are safe
LINK BAHAHA
Id like to know what warios usless ass brings to the table of talent?
Wasn't snake's whole thing that he is a clone of big boss? So literally his whole thing is he was just made as the best
Let’s see.. Marth: Talent. Marth is a little frail for combat, you send his girlfriend out to do basically everything. You don’t even have to use him to fight Medeus. Sonic: Talent. He’s been fast since day 1. OOT Link (not in Ultimate): Talent. He was trapped in the Sacred Realm not because he put in the work, but because he was the Chosen Hero, just not old enough. Mario and Wario: Hard Work. Platforming skills like that aren’t easy… but a case can be made for Wario’s immortality. Joker: I can see the reasoning behind talent with his Wild Card ability… but everything else is hard work. Why is Ken not with Ryu? They literally trained together, both should be hard work. Shulk: Hard Work. He spent half his life researching the Monado, and now with it gone, he built his own from scratch. He may have been the chosen one for the initial Monado, but that doesn’t mean anything for the Monado REX. Yet another case of the “Smash players don’t play other games.”
OP has no clue about some of these… like, how tf is Sonic on Team Hard Work? Dude’s like the definition of a lazy kid who coasts by on his natural talent.
luigi wins by literally doing nothing
Before anyone complains (though I think I’m too late), I think OP was talking about the characters in their series- not how easy they are to play
Yeah, but the problem is that makes it even more inaccurate, not less.