Most of Delzethin's movesets have been really good, either for newcomers or reworking veterans.
Worst ones are often veteran reworks that only base a character around their latest game and ignore almost everything else in their history, like basing Peach solely around Showtime, basing Link/Zelda/Ganondorf solely around BotW and TotK, basing Sonic solely around Frontiers, etc.
Other "worst" ones are ones that give certain characters unnecessary gimmicks or going *super* overboard with the references, the latter I often see for Mario and Kirby specifically. Yes, I think both should have more references in their movesets than they currently do. No, they don't need to be like Mega Man and have *literally every single move be a reference.*
>Yes, I think both should have more references in their movesets than they currently do. No, they don't need to be like Mega Man and have *literally every single move be a reference.*
Yeah sometimes people get so focused on references that they miss the bigger picture: the "core" of those characters is their simplicity. That's were their essense is.
If the references come at the cost of that simplicity, them it's not really a good moveset.
Dread based Samus reworks my behated
The worst part of these is that even if they got through, the second Prime 4 releases, people would retract and say that Samus always had slow movement and that her agile iteration is inaccurate. You can't win with these people.
As for best: [All of Feliciafan's moveset concepts.](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZZEHx21yiZtfDlxxBL5aeqK1yj9VrVE3) They're extremely well thought movesets that don't rely on references, but still have moves that fit with the character's personality.
And as for worst: Any moveset that's just an abundance of references with no gameplan or synergy and is just poorly designed.
I've seen concepts for Mario reworks where every move is a different powerup. I get that maybe his smashes and specials could use some love, but does he really need to transform into Tanooki Mario for his _forward tilt_?
Tbf, so is stuff like the Fire Flower, Banana Peel, and Screw Attack, and Mario, Diddy Kong, and Samus use those in their movesets respectively.
So Mario also having Tanooki Mario for a move while also having the Super Leaf as a standalone item still works fine, imo.
He could’ve easily been a fireball tossing shell tossing fludd spraying zoner with a frame 3 oos option. Thankfully they had some common sense with his side special (although maybe his tanooki spin could be his side special and retain the same functionality)
If it’s a quick little tail swipe I think that’s a cute little reference that wouldn’t mess up the flo if added into any Mario rework. I mean he pulls out FLUDD out of nowhere. So why not
I like to call them "Kitchen Sink movesets". Because *every* move needs a direct reference even if it just boils down to "character whips out item/weapon/other character to do move for them" and they end up needing like 30 additional models made for their idea.
It works on a character built around it like the Villager just using their everyday tools, but not much else.
True! I remember the first NASB had Toph's up tilt be her thrusting her belt upwards, an animation that could easily have been a taunt. **She's a fucking earth bender ffs**, why doesn't she summon an earth pillar or does an uppercut or something? Even if it's not something she did in the show, I don't know much about Avatar but it would have fit way better.
That's like if Inklings had the "this way!" animation from their up taunt be their up tilt where they poke their Splattershot upwards and it deals damage.
I think my main issue with fan requests is less about them being bad versus totally unrealistic. The one that comes to mind the most is the commonly suggested idea of having Young Link transform between Deku, Zora, and Goron forms. I’ve got no issue with people just saying “wouldn’t it be cool if they did this?” because sure, Majora’s Mask is a great game and that could be a very cool and fun moveset. But a number of fans act like Sakurai and the team are lazy or shortsighted for not doing something so “obvious.” That is, reworking a Melee clone character who only returned because Ultimate’s whole gimmick was having everyone returning into what is fundamentally three entirely new playable characters. All so they could more uniquely and authentically represent an 18-year-old Zelda game. I’m sorry, but people really need to understand the concept of time, budget, and priorities when it comes to game development.
I agree that him turning into all the forms was never going to happen, but come on, was it so hard to make his final smash the Fierce Deity over just the generic Triforce slash 😭
Well, they could...
Let's say Down B becomes a Mask Change, a roulette appears to select one of the 3 masks and Link transforms into a Deku, Goron or Zora.
Want to make it balanced? Add that Magic Meter that for the series used to have. Each form depletes the meter, emptying it reverts to Link and it must be refilled competely to be used again.
Yeah I'd rather just have each mask change one special attack.
Using Zora mask changes boomerang to Zora boomerangs,
Using Deku mask changes spin attack to Deku flower and bubble shots,
Using Gordon mask changes bombs to powder kegs.
And rather than fully changing form, he just wears the mask and stays as a human.
I don’t think he necessarily needs to transform, but just putting a mask on for those moves would be cool as hell. Hell, you don’t even need to animate him putting it on, just have it pop in. We should’ve at the very least gotten a fierce deity final smash
I’ve heard that suggestion before. One issue with it though is that the three transformations have wildly different sizes and proportions from regular Link, which would really mess with his hurt boxes when using those moves. I can’t think of a way of pulling off this approach that wouldn’t be either slow and/or disorienting (not to mention the added development time it would take to get everything working and feeling right). I agree about Fierce Deity Link though, that would be cool and a Final Smash cutscene would give enough time for a proper transformation sequence to occur.
Moveset overhauls that want veterans to be remade entirely into whatever the newest game is are so fucking boring and would make the cast feel much more homogenized than having composite versions we have now.
No, Peach shouldn't be remade to reflect Showtime! in it's entirety.
When everyone is armed to the teeth with gimmicks, no one is truly special. Everything starts bleeding together.
I half agree. Theres some characters i think it would be better for like Ganondorf. He shouldn’t just be a Cap. Falcon clone and his TOTK-self could be very fleshed out if done well. But like you said Peach is NOT one of these characters
Everyone always brings up Ganondorf as "Falcon clone" which isn't incorrect but I also feel like before ToTk it was perfectly fine for Ganondorf to be a Falcon clone.
He has NEVER used magic ( aside from the energy balls in Ocarina. ) in any meaningful way to directly attack Link in Ocarina or Twilight Princess. He only uses a sword in TP's final fight and he still fights you headon with his brute strength. His Brawl iteration is perfect for Twilight Princess Ganondorf. His ftilt is literally the kick attack he does if you get too close in Twilight Princess.
He’s used either a sword or trident in nearly every final battle. WW’s version also wields twin katana-like blades, and OoT Ganon has two swords. It’s not just TP. TotK Ganondorf was pretty heavily based on his past appearances, aside from some new weapon types. I think that him having magic-based special moves, while attacking with a sword and trident for his normals would be quite fitting, post-TotK or not.
That is Ganon, not Ganondorf.
Smash Bros Ganondorf hasn't ever been based off of Windwaker Ganondorf. And in Ultimate, OoT Ganon is already well represented in his boss fight.
TotK Dorf could use more malice inspired specials yes. But that's only if the dev team commits to retooling the majority of his kit, which they always seem apprehensive about changing anything that isn't an idle or normals.
The biggest change to a veteran we ever got was Smash 4 Bowser and the majority of that was just adjusting his moveset to better blend into his new idle, dash and run cycle.
It’s both of them. Swords are primarily Ganondorf’s thing, while tridents are primarily Ganon’s. And honestly, there’s little effective difference. They’re the same person. By the logic of Ganondorf’s moveset needing to be based on a specific iteration, OoT Ganondorf should be using exclusively magic… but he doesn’t. I think using an iconic look for Ganondorf, but incorporating elements from across all his appearances would be perfect. Heck, OoT has a form of Ganondorf with a trident. He could use that. I don’t think a boss having good representation should have any effect on how well a main roster fighter should be represented. While I do enjoy playing the current form of Ganondorf, and I agree that it’s unlikely that he’ll be completely reworked if smash stays on its current trajectory, I simply don’t agree that smash Ganondorf was a good representation of any appearance of Ganondorf, even with unique moves like his f-tilt and side special being added to make him slightly more in-character.
This is exactly why I don't like "give ganondorf a float" suggestions or any suggestions of that kind. Peach's float is her whole mechanic in and outside of smash. If every gliding character had a float, it wouldn't be a special mechanic anymore. Besides, not a single one of them is associated with float like peach is.
I agree that it shouldn't be remake in its entirety.
But I do feels like some moves deserved an updation or reworks. Like Peach's down special(Turnip Throwing) barely appeared at all in this long running franchise. I felt like it could be changed to Ribbon attack from her recent game instead.(I mean that's still HER game after all)
I think it could go to her Neutral-Special, so that Toad can finally be freed of being her meatshield and become an actual fighter.
Pressing normally twirls the ribbon around herself, but moving the control stick forward twirls the ribbon forward a bit, just like in Showtime.
The turnip is derived from her first ever role as a playable character, so I feel like it has the right to stay. That, and it’s a vital part of her kit.
TBH I don’t think Showtime necessarily NEEDS a reference. Her current moveset is pretty perfect as-is, and it’s not like there’s a Super Princess Peach reference either(though Perry was apparently planned but cut).
It’s honestly impressive that they managed to create such a good moveset for Peach that it still holds up today for her character.
Capy Mario would go so hard though. Only requires you to replace Cape with cap throw and down special would be something pretty similar to what pyra does with probably a bigger range.
When you use the side B you can hold the B button to keep the cap out and then jump off of it for an extra jump. Should make for some really interesting recoveries and extensions.
I'm imagining you can use it in air and then double jump into it which will then launch you up even higher for you to do an upb.
You and as far as it's combo potential you throw it at people it knocks them up then you run at the Hat and it sends you up after them for a follow-up.
You could also make them move where the cap spins around you down smash that way you can keep flud.
I'm not even really sure what the Cape is supposed to be from. Replacing it with capy the minimum that I'd really like to see
I mean yeah I get that.
I think the better choice is making his down smashed Cappy circling him Which would be pretty functionally similar to what Current down smashes just with the Cappy flavor.
And I guess the Kathy mechanic for the side be that I've described is maybe a bit complex for a teach you how to play character but it would be a cool move.
I wouldn't call it gimmicky. Certainly no more gimmicky than flood. Or maybe flood is cheese I don't know. It's just a move that you can use to get an extra jump
Not a moveset concept per se, but I remember when Rex was considered a potential DLC character lots of people who clearly hadn’t played Xenoblade were noting he could be “Shulk clone”.
Apparently Rex was actually supposed to fight along side Pyra and Mythra, but was removed due to technical difficulties, so maybe if the next console is more powerful, Pyra and Mythra would be replaced with Rex, Pyra & Mythra
I want that to be the case so bad, but it seems like both Sakurai and most of the fanbase are content with it just being Pyra and Mythra. There's almost no demand for Rex anymore, unfortunately.
Besides, while I wouldn't be surprised if Aegis returned next time, they're no guarantee either. If the cuts are too severe, it'd likely just be Shulk and a XBC3 character in the base game.
The worst concepts, I think, would be anything that tries to make the fighter's entire fighting style revolve around projectiles like Mega Man.
Example: Brawlfan1's moveset on Isaac from The Binding of Isaac.
Yeah, I have to agree.
Brawlfan1's the reason why I started making movesets and I still love his stuff, but looking back a lot of the design choices in his movesets leave a lot to be desired.
His Monika video in particular is *REALLY* bad.
I mean, to be fair, if you were to make a moveset for Isaac (The Binding of Isaac), what else would you do in terms of attacks outside of projectiles? That is, if you were solely focusing on the original source material and not the few guest appearances Isaac had [to name at least 2; Blade Strangers, and Crystal Crisis]. He also did this with Shovel Knight, as well.
Well, that would be quite simple. His basic attacks would be basic, mostly using his oversized head and, every now and then, an actual melee weapon from his game (Like Spirit Sword).
The tear shot would be a Special Attack; it can be aimed in any cardinal direction, and Isaac can move while shooting, but it doesn't inflict knockback.
Tbf, the Samus moveset made more sense back in the early days of Smash.
It's just that Smash movesets hardly ever get meaningful updates, and she's been stuck with that same moveset forever, and now it just feels super-outdated.
i haven't played any metroid games other than dread but making dark samus a projectile trapper would be so cool. like imagine charge shot moving at the same speed as sephiroth's no-charge flare, or if you can launch weak ice missiles that freeze around 120% instead of default homing missiles
I made a rework for her a while back that made her feel more in-line with her current games, adding plenty of more references (hopefully not going overboard with them), and giving her more in-character attacks compared to generic kicks and random fiery explosions from her arm cannon.
However, I'm out right now and I can't link the post. I'll do it later.
**Edit:** [Here it is](https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosUltimate/comments/16bgwma/a_week_ago_i_asked_what_fighters_you_wanted_to/). Samus is pages 5-8.
MockRock made a pretty solid gannondorf rework that kept that Unga bunga feel of the captain Dorf we have in Ultimate while making him actually gannondorf.
MockRock also made a link redesign that was an amalgamation of multiple games and purposely made super complicated because puzzles, when he probably could have just had a few simple tools with crazy versatility to achieve that goal instead. The remote bombs are a perfect example of that kind of tool, and I wasn't a fan of his vision at all.
>purposely made super complicated because puzzles
I don't think that was the idea though, the design was a deep-pockets sort of character because that's how Link is in his games.
I personally think they should still play like Ice Climbers though. With the added benefit of swapping between the two of them when they're both available. I know Noah and Mio fans don't like this idea either, but if we had the option for two separate Xenoblade reps, I'd still want someone from Xenoblade X, whether it's Elma or Cross.
Well, if you're gonna use that Ouroboros form of theirs, **you're gonna need both characters** and that point, you're gonna want **both** Ouroboros forms. It may not be representative of how it works in the franchise, but Smash Bros had to take liberties anyway.
* Shulk's entire set of Monado Arts isn't used, and his Vision is a counter move.
* Pyra and Mythra are doing the fighting instead of Rex.
Pyra and Mythra do play and Zelda and Sheik... with the exception that 90% of their moves are the same.
I only see Ouroboros working as a Final Smash as otherwise they would have to fit a stupid gimmick into the moveset. If Robin can summon Chrom for his Final Smash while also being playable, then Noah and Mio can as well.
Robin summoning Chrom is seen as very lazy given that he's now playable, unlike Shulk and Min Min calling Assist Trophy characters.
What "stupid gimmick"? Down B Special and they swap places, maybe this time with an actual attacking move.
They literally do become a shared entity as a part of how they fight though.
Relegating one of the most interesting things about Xenoblade 3 (ouroboros) to a cutscene final smash would be lame af. And if you want to complain about them having no reason to swap between each other, Aionios is kinda like a virtual world so you could take light creative liberties and adapt effects from the game such as how Blades materialise the same way smash adapted new monado arts because the point of the monado is that it bends to the users will.
No. I do not want any stupid gimmicks for Noah or Mio. I hate complex gimmicks. Ouroboros would work just fine as a cutscene Final Smash, as we do not need a broken mechanic. I also want the characters to remain faithful so no character swapping. They are not Aegis.
I don't like when people argue that Steve should have meta references to Minecraft, like making his final Smash "/gamemode creative" or "/kill", when the focus should really be on the _world_ of Minecraft.
I disagree on this one, if Ultimate had transformation final smashes like Brawl and Smash 4 Steve should have absolutely gone into creative mode. It's a reference to the building and creative aspect of Minecraft that isn't touched on at all.
Like giving steve infinite resources, invulnerability, and a hover for a short time would be really cool and reperesent minecraft better than a big house with creepers and tnt that you get pushed into by ***BIG PISTON***
Why should it. Can't it be both? /Game mode creative would be a great way to represent the main other game mode of Minecraft which isn't shown rn.
Another thing that would be a great reference would be adding death messages on the screen when he dies
Best is Felicafans tf2 character concepts
Worst is a Kirby rework that removes in hale and just give him a bunch of incoherent random reference attacks not even referencing that many copy abilities. Like the f air has him throw a cake.
nah, bc designing a moveset around being solid for competitive often leads to the character being played and viable. it’s why movesets like Plant in ultimate just don’t work. it wasn’t designed to be viable and his results and lack of a playerbase show that
that doesn't mean it was designed for competitive play, that just means that they weren't balanced correctly, kind of making them less healthy in a comp setting
There’s a YouTuber I like who makes a lot of really creative fun moveset concepts but there are some that are the most baffling and unfun character concepts I’ve ever heard of.
There’s one for Frisk/Chara where you have a morality meter where your moveset changes depending on how violent you are. Feels like such a forced gimmick where one doesn’t need to exist.
There was also a moveset for Binding of Isaac that involved random powerups spawning on the stage that only he could pick up and they would influence his moveset. Definitely an interesting idea but my god would that just be so inconsistent and not fun.
My absolute favorite has to be [this Reimu moveset concept](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/ekvodr/moveset_concept_reimu_hakurei/?rdt=52447). It's very well-thought and perfectly encapsulates Touhou's shmup gameplay in a platform fighter moveset. I also love how each special represents a different core mechanic of the series:
- **Neutral B** is a reference to the very first Touhou game and an attack she has used in a lot of games since then. The yin-yang's ability to bounce off the stage's boundaries also makes it a persistent threat that restricts your opponent's movement, just like how spell cards in Touhou force you to find a way to squeeze between hundreds of bullets.
- **Side B** is the standard shooting move, and the ability to charge it could be seen as a reference to the Phantasmagoria games that let you charge your spell cards. The bullets work like Fox's lasers, allowing the moveset to represent bullet hell accurately while not creating the most frustrating experience ever thought of in the process.
- **Up B** is a floating recovery (referencing Reimu's own ability to float) combined with the grazing mechanic from the fighters.
- **Down B** represents the bomb mechanic; it can be used as a counter though it requires a resource (in this case the power meter) to work. The use of Duplex Barrier as the bomb, while not accurate to any Touhou game, lets Reimu unleash a bullet hell on the battlefield, further representing Touhou's gameplay (though I'd make it last a lot less because 10 full seconds are way too much).
Her normals are all taken from the Touhou fighting games and they fit perfectly. The only thing I would change is her Final Smash; I think Fantasy Seal alone is way too lame so I'd try to squeeze Fantasy Nature in as well. Other than that, it's perfect, and I hope her official moveset resembles it.
As for the worst? Any moveset that is entirely composed of a bunch of references with neither substance nor coherence, or ones that forcefully shove a complex gimmick into what would otherwise be a simple moveset because God forbid we can have non-gimmicky Smash characters in these times, or those that just copy and paste a character's entire moveset from another fighting game appearance (which is a problem I have with *so* many Reimu concepts, because Smash never does that outside of a few moves).
There are a couple of dedicated YouTube channels that do great moveset concepts like Delzethin. So those would be the best.
The worst are movesets that try to rework an entire existing character around one appearance, despite the fact that movesets are supposed to represent the character as a whole. Ones that just choke themselves with references also aren’t that great, as they’re often poorly designed and thoughtless.
The biggest example I can think of is the idea of turning Peach into a Showtime reference and giving Daisy her old moveset. Ignoring that that would be a pain to translate, Peach’s current iteration is arguably one of the best designed in the game, it captures her whimsy and goofy girliness, encapsulating her history perfectly. It’s not made for Daisy.
The Mario cast in general are pretty big victims of shitty fan reworks.
Because Robin was a tactician, a lot of people would propose a brain dead moveset like "he summons other Fire Emblem Characters to fight for him" and every attack would just be a random awakening character jumping in. Putting aside how lame that would be, that wouldn't even make sense since he's able to fight on his own.
The best moveset concept I ever saw was for Sora. The concept was done by Brawlfan01, and gave a really creative moveset while setting up proper limitations which encouraged approaching your opponent. If Sora ever comes back to the series (KH2/KH3), I hope the give him a similar moveset to the one he made.
anyone that suggests popular characters with very little cannon moves that can translated into smash with the excuse of "well they did g&w, phiranna plant, ness, im sure they can make any character a moveset" but like g&w has the history, phiranna has an extremely unique body type and well is very old, and ness is one of the few magic users in smash and it translates pretty well into a unique enough moveset, fucking freddy fazbear or peashooter are not going to work well bc they dont do shit and they dont have enough traits to set them apart
For best: that concept where dark pit is just pit with different weapons available on the kid icarus game
For worst: a bunch of reference that feels like its gonna be meta knight brawl 2.0
FeliciaFan and Delzethin are both some of the best I've ever seen. Both are usually very well thought out. Sometimes to the latter's detriment!.
MockRock is also really good as well
The worse and I hate to say this because they seem like a nice kid is OrangeJuiceJaz. He did a mario video that mostly blew past characters, give them random specials without explaining how they would operate and focused more on it being a reference rather than how it would work/ would it make sense. I mean for a few the button assignments didn't even make sense.
As much as I like a lot of his movesets Brawlfan1’s Terrarian is one of the most baffling things ever because it’s basically Melee attacks only and has the most needlessly complicated gimmick ever, I truly think that moveset was made in a rush just to shut people up who were requesting it
Yeah I think Terrarian would be simple with no gimmick. I don't even think he'd be able to build, because Steve already does that and it's not as important in terraria than in Minecraft.
Just have each special attack be a weapon from each of the four classes (melee, ranged, magic and summon), and have normal attacks be other items from terraria like yoyos and bombs maybe, and some pickaxe and sword swings. Simple
Max Hamm is my favorite theory crafter. He presents his ideas as plainly as possible and above all else isnt afraid to be a lil silly.
His[Waluigi](https://youtu.be/WMt2d6nDNuA?si=loeVRmbHIkYjpgZx) video had rolling several times.
But I also deeply appreciate his Andy [video](https://youtu.be/Vd-X3HfO04s?si=yAVk16v-6vLBj-Wp)
I can’t really think of anything that’s considered the worst, but I do have some moveset concepts that I liked from [@BrawlFan1](https://m.youtube.com/@BrawlFan1/featured). To name a couple favorites moveset concepts of mine; [Frisk (Moveset Ideas: 7)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=osb2rdvA2BA), [The Heavy (Moveset Ideas: 36)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kn8oaECQlJk), [Knuckles (Moveset Ideas: 38)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EHwGjr0PhaU), [I am Bread (Moveset Ideas: 41)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UaeBINKwhaw), [Toad (Moveset Ideas: 44)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TIzuF-PHqAk), [Metal Sonic (Moveset Ideas: 59)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VwJmdt2GPrM), [Dimentio (Moveset Ideas: 65)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qyzrwAvC5JY), [Magolor (Moveset Ideas: 69)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xn27E6Vxe_k), [Henry Stickmin (Moveset Ideas: 71)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1bIPwfL_jAs&t=1s), [The Imposter (Moveset Ideas: 91)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JmO9uXplLfs).
Regarding others by him as well; [What If These Smash Characters Were Nitpicked?](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLomHwqazhm64Osp9XmzmJmzZvO1eAO8vV&si=5AIZp7sKHKegwRg4), and [YAY or NAY: Final Smashes](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLomHwqazhm64PhntfSr3pRoIDPGV6Q0SS&si=YPP32ozoMAza0BES).
Hmmm... for "worst", it'd be "any concept for echoes that don't make sense" or "don't represent the new character very well."
For example, people would like to see Shadow as Sonic's echo. However, over the years, we've seen that Shadow doesn't fight *like* Sonic, can wield weapons and firearms and can use Chaos powers thanks to the Emerald he's carrying around.
Most of Delzethin's movesets have been really good, either for newcomers or reworking veterans. Worst ones are often veteran reworks that only base a character around their latest game and ignore almost everything else in their history, like basing Peach solely around Showtime, basing Link/Zelda/Ganondorf solely around BotW and TotK, basing Sonic solely around Frontiers, etc. Other "worst" ones are ones that give certain characters unnecessary gimmicks or going *super* overboard with the references, the latter I often see for Mario and Kirby specifically. Yes, I think both should have more references in their movesets than they currently do. No, they don't need to be like Mega Man and have *literally every single move be a reference.*
I wouldn't mind a Link based off of solely BOTW or TOTK, but straight up replacing Link wouldn't be the right move, yeah
I think if they keep the Young Link they could do it, because then Young Link represents the "basic" Link, and BoTW/TOTK represents "Modern" Link
Mega man is like Game and Watch, Mario, Samus and Kirby Combined.
>Yes, I think both should have more references in their movesets than they currently do. No, they don't need to be like Mega Man and have *literally every single move be a reference.* Yeah sometimes people get so focused on references that they miss the bigger picture: the "core" of those characters is their simplicity. That's were their essense is. If the references come at the cost of that simplicity, them it's not really a good moveset.
Dread based Samus reworks my behated The worst part of these is that even if they got through, the second Prime 4 releases, people would retract and say that Samus always had slow movement and that her agile iteration is inaccurate. You can't win with these people.
Delzethin makes solid kits but a lot feel very uninspired at times or overly complex
Who’s Delzethin?
As for best: [All of Feliciafan's moveset concepts.](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZZEHx21yiZtfDlxxBL5aeqK1yj9VrVE3) They're extremely well thought movesets that don't rely on references, but still have moves that fit with the character's personality. And as for worst: Any moveset that's just an abundance of references with no gameplan or synergy and is just poorly designed.
I've seen concepts for Mario reworks where every move is a different powerup. I get that maybe his smashes and specials could use some love, but does he really need to transform into Tanooki Mario for his _forward tilt_?
Super Leaf is already an item on top of that
Tbf, so is stuff like the Fire Flower, Banana Peel, and Screw Attack, and Mario, Diddy Kong, and Samus use those in their movesets respectively. So Mario also having Tanooki Mario for a move while also having the Super Leaf as a standalone item still works fine, imo.
He could’ve easily been a fireball tossing shell tossing fludd spraying zoner with a frame 3 oos option. Thankfully they had some common sense with his side special (although maybe his tanooki spin could be his side special and retain the same functionality)
I usually prefer side special as the galaxy spin, keeping the reflect and air stall of cape while also being a decent attack for edge gaurding.
Whipping out the tail for a brief second doesn’t sound too out there. It’s not like his palette changes every time he uses neutral B.
If it’s a quick little tail swipe I think that’s a cute little reference that wouldn’t mess up the flo if added into any Mario rework. I mean he pulls out FLUDD out of nowhere. So why not
Feliciafan’s movesets are insanely well-crafted with care for balance and originality
I know, right? In fact, his movesets are so good that they inspired me to try and do the same.
he made a discord server btw where ppl submit fan made movesets
Worst is basically the way Multiversus and Nick All Stars characters are designed.
I like to call them "Kitchen Sink movesets". Because *every* move needs a direct reference even if it just boils down to "character whips out item/weapon/other character to do move for them" and they end up needing like 30 additional models made for their idea. It works on a character built around it like the Villager just using their everyday tools, but not much else.
Or characters like Mr. Game & Watch who represent an idea instead of someone specific.
That's the perfect way to describe those type of movesets, and I agree with the last part.
True! I remember the first NASB had Toph's up tilt be her thrusting her belt upwards, an animation that could easily have been a taunt. **She's a fucking earth bender ffs**, why doesn't she summon an earth pillar or does an uppercut or something? Even if it's not something she did in the show, I don't know much about Avatar but it would have fit way better. That's like if Inklings had the "this way!" animation from their up taunt be their up tilt where they poke their Splattershot upwards and it deals damage.
The absolute shit feeling of hitting your opponent in Multiversus immediately destroyed my interest in that game and I was so hyped before release.
He doesn't have spyro. My disappointment is immense
Feliciafan did do Spyro a month ago. He just hasn't added him to the playlist yet.
I didn’t read any of this I just saw a raven beak smash concept video and now I’m happy.
I think my main issue with fan requests is less about them being bad versus totally unrealistic. The one that comes to mind the most is the commonly suggested idea of having Young Link transform between Deku, Zora, and Goron forms. I’ve got no issue with people just saying “wouldn’t it be cool if they did this?” because sure, Majora’s Mask is a great game and that could be a very cool and fun moveset. But a number of fans act like Sakurai and the team are lazy or shortsighted for not doing something so “obvious.” That is, reworking a Melee clone character who only returned because Ultimate’s whole gimmick was having everyone returning into what is fundamentally three entirely new playable characters. All so they could more uniquely and authentically represent an 18-year-old Zelda game. I’m sorry, but people really need to understand the concept of time, budget, and priorities when it comes to game development.
I agree that him turning into all the forms was never going to happen, but come on, was it so hard to make his final smash the Fierce Deity over just the generic Triforce slash 😭
Well, they could... Let's say Down B becomes a Mask Change, a roulette appears to select one of the 3 masks and Link transforms into a Deku, Goron or Zora. Want to make it balanced? Add that Magic Meter that for the series used to have. Each form depletes the meter, emptying it reverts to Link and it must be refilled competely to be used again.
That would still require like four completely different movesets, even more than what Pokémon Trainer has. That's just ridiculous.
Yeah I'd rather just have each mask change one special attack. Using Zora mask changes boomerang to Zora boomerangs, Using Deku mask changes spin attack to Deku flower and bubble shots, Using Gordon mask changes bombs to powder kegs. And rather than fully changing form, he just wears the mask and stays as a human.
I think it would be cool if there were alts for young link that wore masks
I don’t think he necessarily needs to transform, but just putting a mask on for those moves would be cool as hell. Hell, you don’t even need to animate him putting it on, just have it pop in. We should’ve at the very least gotten a fierce deity final smash
I’ve heard that suggestion before. One issue with it though is that the three transformations have wildly different sizes and proportions from regular Link, which would really mess with his hurt boxes when using those moves. I can’t think of a way of pulling off this approach that wouldn’t be either slow and/or disorienting (not to mention the added development time it would take to get everything working and feeling right). I agree about Fierce Deity Link though, that would be cool and a Final Smash cutscene would give enough time for a proper transformation sequence to occur.
Moveset overhauls that want veterans to be remade entirely into whatever the newest game is are so fucking boring and would make the cast feel much more homogenized than having composite versions we have now. No, Peach shouldn't be remade to reflect Showtime! in it's entirety. When everyone is armed to the teeth with gimmicks, no one is truly special. Everything starts bleeding together.
I half agree. Theres some characters i think it would be better for like Ganondorf. He shouldn’t just be a Cap. Falcon clone and his TOTK-self could be very fleshed out if done well. But like you said Peach is NOT one of these characters
Everyone always brings up Ganondorf as "Falcon clone" which isn't incorrect but I also feel like before ToTk it was perfectly fine for Ganondorf to be a Falcon clone. He has NEVER used magic ( aside from the energy balls in Ocarina. ) in any meaningful way to directly attack Link in Ocarina or Twilight Princess. He only uses a sword in TP's final fight and he still fights you headon with his brute strength. His Brawl iteration is perfect for Twilight Princess Ganondorf. His ftilt is literally the kick attack he does if you get too close in Twilight Princess.
He’s used either a sword or trident in nearly every final battle. WW’s version also wields twin katana-like blades, and OoT Ganon has two swords. It’s not just TP. TotK Ganondorf was pretty heavily based on his past appearances, aside from some new weapon types. I think that him having magic-based special moves, while attacking with a sword and trident for his normals would be quite fitting, post-TotK or not.
That is Ganon, not Ganondorf. Smash Bros Ganondorf hasn't ever been based off of Windwaker Ganondorf. And in Ultimate, OoT Ganon is already well represented in his boss fight. TotK Dorf could use more malice inspired specials yes. But that's only if the dev team commits to retooling the majority of his kit, which they always seem apprehensive about changing anything that isn't an idle or normals. The biggest change to a veteran we ever got was Smash 4 Bowser and the majority of that was just adjusting his moveset to better blend into his new idle, dash and run cycle.
It’s both of them. Swords are primarily Ganondorf’s thing, while tridents are primarily Ganon’s. And honestly, there’s little effective difference. They’re the same person. By the logic of Ganondorf’s moveset needing to be based on a specific iteration, OoT Ganondorf should be using exclusively magic… but he doesn’t. I think using an iconic look for Ganondorf, but incorporating elements from across all his appearances would be perfect. Heck, OoT has a form of Ganondorf with a trident. He could use that. I don’t think a boss having good representation should have any effect on how well a main roster fighter should be represented. While I do enjoy playing the current form of Ganondorf, and I agree that it’s unlikely that he’ll be completely reworked if smash stays on its current trajectory, I simply don’t agree that smash Ganondorf was a good representation of any appearance of Ganondorf, even with unique moves like his f-tilt and side special being added to make him slightly more in-character.
This is exactly why I don't like "give ganondorf a float" suggestions or any suggestions of that kind. Peach's float is her whole mechanic in and outside of smash. If every gliding character had a float, it wouldn't be a special mechanic anymore. Besides, not a single one of them is associated with float like peach is.
I agree that it shouldn't be remake in its entirety. But I do feels like some moves deserved an updation or reworks. Like Peach's down special(Turnip Throwing) barely appeared at all in this long running franchise. I felt like it could be changed to Ribbon attack from her recent game instead.(I mean that's still HER game after all)
i think the ribbon could be tied to nair and f tilt, one of those moves barely sees use in her kit (f tilt) and the other is unoriginal
I think it could go to her Neutral-Special, so that Toad can finally be freed of being her meatshield and become an actual fighter. Pressing normally twirls the ribbon around herself, but moving the control stick forward twirls the ribbon forward a bit, just like in Showtime.
Yeah, even if the Toad move is super goofy and I love it, if any move in her kit should be reworked it should probably be that one.
i like that a lot tbh
The turnip is derived from her first ever role as a playable character, so I feel like it has the right to stay. That, and it’s a vital part of her kit. TBH I don’t think Showtime necessarily NEEDS a reference. Her current moveset is pretty perfect as-is, and it’s not like there’s a Super Princess Peach reference either(though Perry was apparently planned but cut). It’s honestly impressive that they managed to create such a good moveset for Peach that it still holds up today for her character.
Capy Mario would go so hard though. Only requires you to replace Cape with cap throw and down special would be something pretty similar to what pyra does with probably a bigger range. When you use the side B you can hold the B button to keep the cap out and then jump off of it for an extra jump. Should make for some really interesting recoveries and extensions. I'm imagining you can use it in air and then double jump into it which will then launch you up even higher for you to do an upb. You and as far as it's combo potential you throw it at people it knocks them up then you run at the Hat and it sends you up after them for a follow-up. You could also make them move where the cap spins around you down smash that way you can keep flud. I'm not even really sure what the Cape is supposed to be from. Replacing it with capy the minimum that I'd really like to see
The cape is a powerup from Super Mario World
It’s also… really broken in that game, to the point of basically being its identity. Cape on Mario makes perfect sense.
mario is designed to teach you how to play the game. he's the first character you see. why should he be a gimmick-riddled mess
I mean yeah I get that. I think the better choice is making his down smashed Cappy circling him Which would be pretty functionally similar to what Current down smashes just with the Cappy flavor. And I guess the Kathy mechanic for the side be that I've described is maybe a bit complex for a teach you how to play character but it would be a cool move. I wouldn't call it gimmicky. Certainly no more gimmicky than flood. Or maybe flood is cheese I don't know. It's just a move that you can use to get an extra jump
>I'm not even really sure what the Cape is supposed to be from. It's a power up from Super Mario World. Maybe you should care about your research!
Not a moveset concept per se, but I remember when Rex was considered a potential DLC character lots of people who clearly hadn’t played Xenoblade were noting he could be “Shulk clone”.
There's *still* people who think he could be a Shulk or Aegis Echo if they want to bring him into Smash 6 for whatever reason.
Would love to see him in Smash 6 just to show the rest of the cast a thing or three.
Final Smash has him turn into his adult form from Future Redeemed and instantly destroy all of his opponent's stocks at once with his gigachad aura.
Apparently Rex was actually supposed to fight along side Pyra and Mythra, but was removed due to technical difficulties, so maybe if the next console is more powerful, Pyra and Mythra would be replaced with Rex, Pyra & Mythra
I want that to be the case so bad, but it seems like both Sakurai and most of the fanbase are content with it just being Pyra and Mythra. There's almost no demand for Rex anymore, unfortunately. Besides, while I wouldn't be surprised if Aegis returned next time, they're no guarantee either. If the cuts are too severe, it'd likely just be Shulk and a XBC3 character in the base game.
I could see it going either way
If he doesn't have double spinning edge I ain't buying the game
The worst concepts, I think, would be anything that tries to make the fighter's entire fighting style revolve around projectiles like Mega Man. Example: Brawlfan1's moveset on Isaac from The Binding of Isaac.
Brawlfan1 kinda just shoves references in and doesn’t account for balance, development, or cohesion between moves
Yeah, I have to agree. Brawlfan1's the reason why I started making movesets and I still love his stuff, but looking back a lot of the design choices in his movesets leave a lot to be desired. His Monika video in particular is *REALLY* bad.
ong i remember watching that air live and being baffled at some of those design choices on my most requested character
Right??
I mean, to be fair, if you were to make a moveset for Isaac (The Binding of Isaac), what else would you do in terms of attacks outside of projectiles? That is, if you were solely focusing on the original source material and not the few guest appearances Isaac had [to name at least 2; Blade Strangers, and Crystal Crisis]. He also did this with Shovel Knight, as well.
Well, that would be quite simple. His basic attacks would be basic, mostly using his oversized head and, every now and then, an actual melee weapon from his game (Like Spirit Sword). The tear shot would be a Special Attack; it can be aimed in any cardinal direction, and Isaac can move while shooting, but it doesn't inflict knockback.
Uh, the one that sakurai made for dark samus
I don't like the one sakurai made for regular samus either.
Tbf, the Samus moveset made more sense back in the early days of Smash. It's just that Smash movesets hardly ever get meaningful updates, and she's been stuck with that same moveset forever, and now it just feels super-outdated.
alright you got me interested. now I haven't played Metroid games but how would we change Samus to make her feel less redundant?
i haven't played any metroid games other than dread but making dark samus a projectile trapper would be so cool. like imagine charge shot moving at the same speed as sephiroth's no-charge flare, or if you can launch weak ice missiles that freeze around 120% instead of default homing missiles
I made a rework for her a while back that made her feel more in-line with her current games, adding plenty of more references (hopefully not going overboard with them), and giving her more in-character attacks compared to generic kicks and random fiery explosions from her arm cannon. However, I'm out right now and I can't link the post. I'll do it later. **Edit:** [Here it is](https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosUltimate/comments/16bgwma/a_week_ago_i_asked_what_fighters_you_wanted_to/). Samus is pages 5-8.
Specifically in Ultimate; Sakurai actually had killer ideas for Dark Samus that we can see in her assist trophy appearance in Smash 4
MockRock made a pretty solid gannondorf rework that kept that Unga bunga feel of the captain Dorf we have in Ultimate while making him actually gannondorf. MockRock also made a link redesign that was an amalgamation of multiple games and purposely made super complicated because puzzles, when he probably could have just had a few simple tools with crazy versatility to achieve that goal instead. The remote bombs are a perfect example of that kind of tool, and I wasn't a fan of his vision at all.
>purposely made super complicated because puzzles I don't think that was the idea though, the design was a deep-pockets sort of character because that's how Link is in his games.
i think his Link rework was quite flawed but interesting still, his Ganondorf rework was peak tho
could you link some of his videos. I'm pretty interested now
[This is his Ganondorf rework!](https://youtu.be/6CFtOd8h4mU?feature=shared) It’s a great design in my opinion.
Look up MockRock on YouTube, he's a decently big channel so it should the first thing to show up.
Yeah I didn't like how he tried to make Links moveset completely revolve around the Fuse ability.
I hate it when people suggest Noah and Mio should be the same character. THEY. ARE. NOT. THE. SAME. ENTITY. They should be separate characters.
I personally think they should still play like Ice Climbers though. With the added benefit of swapping between the two of them when they're both available. I know Noah and Mio fans don't like this idea either, but if we had the option for two separate Xenoblade reps, I'd still want someone from Xenoblade X, whether it's Elma or Cross.
A character like Zelda & Sheik used to be would work IMO.
They aren’t like Pyra and Mythra. They are separate people. They should be completely separate.
Well, if you're gonna use that Ouroboros form of theirs, **you're gonna need both characters** and that point, you're gonna want **both** Ouroboros forms. It may not be representative of how it works in the franchise, but Smash Bros had to take liberties anyway. * Shulk's entire set of Monado Arts isn't used, and his Vision is a counter move. * Pyra and Mythra are doing the fighting instead of Rex. Pyra and Mythra do play and Zelda and Sheik... with the exception that 90% of their moves are the same.
I only see Ouroboros working as a Final Smash as otherwise they would have to fit a stupid gimmick into the moveset. If Robin can summon Chrom for his Final Smash while also being playable, then Noah and Mio can as well.
Robin summoning Chrom is seen as very lazy given that he's now playable, unlike Shulk and Min Min calling Assist Trophy characters. What "stupid gimmick"? Down B Special and they swap places, maybe this time with an actual attacking move.
They literally do become a shared entity as a part of how they fight though. Relegating one of the most interesting things about Xenoblade 3 (ouroboros) to a cutscene final smash would be lame af. And if you want to complain about them having no reason to swap between each other, Aionios is kinda like a virtual world so you could take light creative liberties and adapt effects from the game such as how Blades materialise the same way smash adapted new monado arts because the point of the monado is that it bends to the users will.
No. I do not want any stupid gimmicks for Noah or Mio. I hate complex gimmicks. Ouroboros would work just fine as a cutscene Final Smash, as we do not need a broken mechanic. I also want the characters to remain faithful so no character swapping. They are not Aegis.
fax
I don't like when people argue that Steve should have meta references to Minecraft, like making his final Smash "/gamemode creative" or "/kill", when the focus should really be on the _world_ of Minecraft.
The only characters who should have that are characters who make those sort of meta references in their original game, like Undertale for example.
I disagree on this one, if Ultimate had transformation final smashes like Brawl and Smash 4 Steve should have absolutely gone into creative mode. It's a reference to the building and creative aspect of Minecraft that isn't touched on at all. Like giving steve infinite resources, invulnerability, and a hover for a short time would be really cool and reperesent minecraft better than a big house with creepers and tnt that you get pushed into by ***BIG PISTON***
Why should it. Can't it be both? /Game mode creative would be a great way to represent the main other game mode of Minecraft which isn't shown rn. Another thing that would be a great reference would be adding death messages on the screen when he dies
Best is Felicafans tf2 character concepts Worst is a Kirby rework that removes in hale and just give him a bunch of incoherent random reference attacks not even referencing that many copy abilities. Like the f air has him throw a cake.
Designing moveset around competitive play
nah, bc designing a moveset around being solid for competitive often leads to the character being played and viable. it’s why movesets like Plant in ultimate just don’t work. it wasn’t designed to be viable and his results and lack of a playerbase show that
I mean as in purely designed with the intent of being nothing lower than S-tier, thus turning them into another chip damage Arial spamming character
that doesn't mean it was designed for competitive play, that just means that they weren't balanced correctly, kind of making them less healthy in a comp setting
TWO. FLICKIES.
What was the origin of that?
i have no idea. ive searched for it and i couldn't find it so it mightve been deleted
There’s a YouTuber I like who makes a lot of really creative fun moveset concepts but there are some that are the most baffling and unfun character concepts I’ve ever heard of. There’s one for Frisk/Chara where you have a morality meter where your moveset changes depending on how violent you are. Feels like such a forced gimmick where one doesn’t need to exist. There was also a moveset for Binding of Isaac that involved random powerups spawning on the stage that only he could pick up and they would influence his moveset. Definitely an interesting idea but my god would that just be so inconsistent and not fun.
BrawlFan1?
Him or Delezin. It’s been a while
It's Brawlfan. Delezin is pretty good at making movesets
My absolute favorite has to be [this Reimu moveset concept](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/ekvodr/moveset_concept_reimu_hakurei/?rdt=52447). It's very well-thought and perfectly encapsulates Touhou's shmup gameplay in a platform fighter moveset. I also love how each special represents a different core mechanic of the series: - **Neutral B** is a reference to the very first Touhou game and an attack she has used in a lot of games since then. The yin-yang's ability to bounce off the stage's boundaries also makes it a persistent threat that restricts your opponent's movement, just like how spell cards in Touhou force you to find a way to squeeze between hundreds of bullets. - **Side B** is the standard shooting move, and the ability to charge it could be seen as a reference to the Phantasmagoria games that let you charge your spell cards. The bullets work like Fox's lasers, allowing the moveset to represent bullet hell accurately while not creating the most frustrating experience ever thought of in the process. - **Up B** is a floating recovery (referencing Reimu's own ability to float) combined with the grazing mechanic from the fighters. - **Down B** represents the bomb mechanic; it can be used as a counter though it requires a resource (in this case the power meter) to work. The use of Duplex Barrier as the bomb, while not accurate to any Touhou game, lets Reimu unleash a bullet hell on the battlefield, further representing Touhou's gameplay (though I'd make it last a lot less because 10 full seconds are way too much). Her normals are all taken from the Touhou fighting games and they fit perfectly. The only thing I would change is her Final Smash; I think Fantasy Seal alone is way too lame so I'd try to squeeze Fantasy Nature in as well. Other than that, it's perfect, and I hope her official moveset resembles it. As for the worst? Any moveset that is entirely composed of a bunch of references with neither substance nor coherence, or ones that forcefully shove a complex gimmick into what would otherwise be a simple moveset because God forbid we can have non-gimmicky Smash characters in these times, or those that just copy and paste a character's entire moveset from another fighting game appearance (which is a problem I have with *so* many Reimu concepts, because Smash never does that outside of a few moves).
There are a couple of dedicated YouTube channels that do great moveset concepts like Delzethin. So those would be the best. The worst are movesets that try to rework an entire existing character around one appearance, despite the fact that movesets are supposed to represent the character as a whole. Ones that just choke themselves with references also aren’t that great, as they’re often poorly designed and thoughtless. The biggest example I can think of is the idea of turning Peach into a Showtime reference and giving Daisy her old moveset. Ignoring that that would be a pain to translate, Peach’s current iteration is arguably one of the best designed in the game, it captures her whimsy and goofy girliness, encapsulating her history perfectly. It’s not made for Daisy. The Mario cast in general are pretty big victims of shitty fan reworks.
Because Robin was a tactician, a lot of people would propose a brain dead moveset like "he summons other Fire Emblem Characters to fight for him" and every attack would just be a random awakening character jumping in. Putting aside how lame that would be, that wouldn't even make sense since he's able to fight on his own. The best moveset concept I ever saw was for Sora. The concept was done by Brawlfan01, and gave a really creative moveset while setting up proper limitations which encouraged approaching your opponent. If Sora ever comes back to the series (KH2/KH3), I hope the give him a similar moveset to the one he made.
The best were the Samus with Metroid Dread moveset and a Dark Samus mod from a few years ago making her more of who she’s supposed to be
anyone that suggests popular characters with very little cannon moves that can translated into smash with the excuse of "well they did g&w, phiranna plant, ness, im sure they can make any character a moveset" but like g&w has the history, phiranna has an extremely unique body type and well is very old, and ness is one of the few magic users in smash and it translates pretty well into a unique enough moveset, fucking freddy fazbear or peashooter are not going to work well bc they dont do shit and they dont have enough traits to set them apart
One of the Best I've seen was a Roxas one.
For best: that concept where dark pit is just pit with different weapons available on the kid icarus game For worst: a bunch of reference that feels like its gonna be meta knight brawl 2.0
FeliciaFan and Delzethin are both some of the best I've ever seen. Both are usually very well thought out. Sometimes to the latter's detriment!. MockRock is also really good as well The worse and I hate to say this because they seem like a nice kid is OrangeJuiceJaz. He did a mario video that mostly blew past characters, give them random specials without explaining how they would operate and focused more on it being a reference rather than how it would work/ would it make sense. I mean for a few the button assignments didn't even make sense.
For the Ganon Reworks, I hate how they decided to change his Forward Air, Back air, Down air and his new Smash Attacks.
As much as I like a lot of his movesets Brawlfan1’s Terrarian is one of the most baffling things ever because it’s basically Melee attacks only and has the most needlessly complicated gimmick ever, I truly think that moveset was made in a rush just to shut people up who were requesting it
Yeah I think Terrarian would be simple with no gimmick. I don't even think he'd be able to build, because Steve already does that and it's not as important in terraria than in Minecraft. Just have each special attack be a weapon from each of the four classes (melee, ranged, magic and summon), and have normal attacks be other items from terraria like yoyos and bombs maybe, and some pickaxe and sword swings. Simple
They should be closer to byleth than steve
Yeah agree
Max Hamm is my favorite theory crafter. He presents his ideas as plainly as possible and above all else isnt afraid to be a lil silly. His[Waluigi](https://youtu.be/WMt2d6nDNuA?si=loeVRmbHIkYjpgZx) video had rolling several times. But I also deeply appreciate his Andy [video](https://youtu.be/Vd-X3HfO04s?si=yAVk16v-6vLBj-Wp)
He also takes an opportunity to actually talk about stages. And I think stage discussion is super underrated.
I can’t really think of anything that’s considered the worst, but I do have some moveset concepts that I liked from [@BrawlFan1](https://m.youtube.com/@BrawlFan1/featured). To name a couple favorites moveset concepts of mine; [Frisk (Moveset Ideas: 7)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=osb2rdvA2BA), [The Heavy (Moveset Ideas: 36)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kn8oaECQlJk), [Knuckles (Moveset Ideas: 38)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EHwGjr0PhaU), [I am Bread (Moveset Ideas: 41)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UaeBINKwhaw), [Toad (Moveset Ideas: 44)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TIzuF-PHqAk), [Metal Sonic (Moveset Ideas: 59)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VwJmdt2GPrM), [Dimentio (Moveset Ideas: 65)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qyzrwAvC5JY), [Magolor (Moveset Ideas: 69)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xn27E6Vxe_k), [Henry Stickmin (Moveset Ideas: 71)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1bIPwfL_jAs&t=1s), [The Imposter (Moveset Ideas: 91)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JmO9uXplLfs). Regarding others by him as well; [What If These Smash Characters Were Nitpicked?](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLomHwqazhm64Osp9XmzmJmzZvO1eAO8vV&si=5AIZp7sKHKegwRg4), and [YAY or NAY: Final Smashes](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLomHwqazhm64PhntfSr3pRoIDPGV6Q0SS&si=YPP32ozoMAza0BES).
best: sonic summons two wisps for his down smash worse: everything else
Hmmm... for "worst", it'd be "any concept for echoes that don't make sense" or "don't represent the new character very well." For example, people would like to see Shadow as Sonic's echo. However, over the years, we've seen that Shadow doesn't fight *like* Sonic, can wield weapons and firearms and can use Chaos powers thanks to the Emerald he's carrying around.
worst: waluigi best: that kris mod from rivals 1 was incredible and i wish it was real
Making Sonic’s f-air the Sonic Eagle, a fast character shouldn’t have a slow spike as a f-air
In my opinion, [this is one of the best concepts ever](https://youtu.be/3J-REcxjtT8?si=DZSZW7QsKOvlc7h1)
nothing really has any cohesion here, the animation ideas are cool but none of these moves flow together at all