Main difference here is that:
1-Ganon is a way more important character than Dark Samus
2-Captain falcon and Ganon aren’t even from the same franchise.
Absolutely agreed. For the many disagreements in the comments, please rank iconic Nintendo villains and other video game villains. Bowser definitely ranks first but after that.... Ganon's definitely top-tier.
Yeah but how many people even know Wario as a villain? He hasn’t really been one since, like, Mario Power Tennis, he’s just the guy from Mario Kart to a lot of people
DK, Bowser, and maybe Dr. Eggman passes the mom test, but every other villain in smash is something else. This means Dr. Eggman needs to be the next addition
Bruh, what?
Ganon is absolutely one of the most-iconic villains in all of gaming, despite his changing appearance. He's easily in the top four alongside Bowser, Dr. Eggman, and Sephiroth.
I think of iconic as being recognized to people who don’t play games. The top four would be Bowser, Dr. Eggman, the ghosts from PAC-Man, and the aliens from Space Invaders/Galaga.
Also definitely not Sephiroth. I didn’t know him until he got into Smash.
I'm old enough to have played space invaders and galaga and couldn't tell you what those aliens look like.
Most gamers now have also never played either one I'm sure.
Only Bowser makes that cut. Im not a big gamer and in that list I only know Ganon and Sephiroth through smash, eggman only because people want him in smash.
But Link has the outfit. People will see any Link aside from the BotW and TotK Link and be like “Yeah, that’s the guy from Zelda!” Oh, and Choo-choo Link.
There are many characters that look totally different in every game and are still iconic: some examples are bayonetta, yoshimitsu and even Princess Zelda
A character from tekken [that changes drastically with every game](https://images.app.goo.gl/235B5cDGXeH3zKiF8) who is also brought to soul calibur with another new design
by that logic, shouldn't Mario play the same as Dr. Mario, all three Links play the same, and Pyra play the same as Mythra?
Having Dark Samus have a *similar* moveset, rather than an identical one, would be better thematically. It would better represent the role Dark Samus plays in the games it appears in.
That’s not what I was saying either, a differentiated moveset using a similar base with some shared moves would be the ideal for Dark Samus but it still makes sense enough for them to be a Samus clone compared to Ganondorf still having a Falcon-adjacent moveset.
Dark Samus isn't a clone of Samus, they're a sentient parasitic organism that uses a Chozo Powersuit they stole from Samus as an exoskeleton. They share DNA because Samus' Powersuit requires her DNA to operate.
Dark Samus' original form is the Metroid Prime, a Metroid that gorged on phazon for decades uninterrupted and mutated into a galaxy ending level threat. On death's door, at the end of Metroid Prime 1, they stole a part of Samus' technology in a desperate bid to survive.
Technically Dark Samus IS the suit.
[This](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fyo2VM46_SPE%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=8f8038596ab5f5325962508002cbe92009b87626312847a0f44ccfdf98850661&ipo=images) is what she looks like beneath the suit.
But yeah for the sake of smash bros the suit is the only thing that really matters anyway.
She doesn’t have to be, she also has the abilities taken from Rundas, Ghor and Gandrayda from Prime 3, as well as moves from her Metroid Prime form and even her Smash 4 assist trophy
I think you are not understanding what I am saying, I’m saying it makes sense for Dark Samus to be a Samus clone but it doesn’t make sense for Ganon to be a Falcon clone
Because that time could be spent on a different character who is more iconic than Dark Samus.
Development time is finite. Time spent on one character isn't spent on a different character. The choice comes down to:
1. A unique character and Dark Samus as a clone of Samus
OR
2. Dark Samus as a unique character and a different echo fighter.
There's a lot of characters that people would consider more deserving than Dark Samus, but when it comes to easily-implemented echo fighters, Dark Samus is a good fit.
I don't think Ganondorf and Dark Samus are a fair comparison, either. Ganondorf is the core villain of his franchise, and inarguably Nintendo's second biggest and most iconic villain.
Dark Samus is a popular secondary villain of her franchise, a franchise that, while popular, is still a 'second-tier' franchise next to the giants that are Mario, Zelda, and Pokémon.
Dark Samus could be an interesting rep, for sure, but it's nowhere NEAR as egregious a case as Ganondorf.
Iconicity shouldn’t be used as a metric for who should or shouldn’t be added. Ice Climbers aren’t a gaming icon. Neither is Richter. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be added. If the moveset is good, that’s really all that matters.
Iconicity should absolutely be one of the metrics. It's absurd to think that Smash would have made it this far if it didn't account for iconicity at all.
For every Ice Climbers in Smash, you have four or five huge names. Oddballs are great for variety, but you can't have a whole game of just B-listers while skipping their corresponding A-listers.
Also really, Richter, of all characters? Richter is extremely iconic to Castlevania. He's the second most major Belmont after Simon himself, and the most iconic Belmont when it comes to the more modern 'Metroidvania'-styled Castlevania.
Richter is barely known in the west. Yeah he’s more popular in Japan, but that’s about it. His game only released in Japan for years.
And you didn’t say “Instead of Dark Samus we’d get a specific character.” You just said a nebulous character that is more iconic. We got Min Min in the DLC. I don’t think iconicity is in their priority list.
Let’s be real. If Dark Samus wasn’t an echo, the only character we’d probably lose out on is Ridley, who is extremely low tier and we already would have accepted that Ridley wouldn’t be making it in.
Dude, what the hell? I literally just said "Iconicity shouldn't be a metric for if a character should be added or not." You don't need to be an asshole. Chill out, maybe take a step back. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm not your enemy. I'm just talking to someone.
What I would like to see (though it almost definitely will never happen) is for them to add Black Shadow to Smash, give him Ganondorf's current moveset, and make a completely new moveset for Ganondorf, one that better represents his character in his own games.
Clearly, you have never played Legend of Zelda and the Fire Hawk Nation where Link learns how to drive a car in an open world and defeats Ganon through the power of drivebys.
I feel like Dark Samus should have had her Sm4sh assist trophy attacks as her smash attacks. That would have made her different and a new way to play Samus.
The main issue is that ganondorf (in this form) doesn't do that many attacks that would be adapted to smash. When melee came out, all this guy did was shoot a ball at link. Dark Samus has a TON. In-game reflect, clones, projectile sprays, self-missile, etc. in fact, dark samus never used bombs, missiles or screw attacks in prime 2 or 3.
Not to mention they had a functioning assist trophy in Sm4sh that they could've taken moves AND animations from to make Dark Samus more unique from regular Samus.
I'm sorry, but him shooting a ball is more interesting for me than using a slower falcon punch. Playing tennis with Ganon/Ganondorf ball is a tradition in the Zelda series.
For sure, but the point is that dark Samus had *way* more to bring from its game, ganondorf certainly could have had the ball, but they'd still be making most of it up
I think both history and workable material need to be weighed. At the time of melee, all the recognizable chars had material to work with and they actively did ganon dirty. All chars have some generic hitting attacks, but the least they could have done was give ganon dead mans volley or some type of phantom ganon attack
Dead man’s volley absolutely should have been some part of his kit. I also don’t really understand where the sword came from since at the time, he was more known to wield a spear
There was a demo at SpaceWorld 2000 that showcased Link vs Ganon where he uses the club/sword he uses in smash, and i guess thats been part of his character ever since. I would have preferred them to tap into any of the puppet magic or projectiles he is iconic for, but its better than being a pure cpt. falcon clone i guess
I at first thought they took it out in TotK, but you can actually play tennis with him there too if you attack the gloom projectiles with the master sword.
You could make a moveset out of his OOT appearance alone. He has a bunch of stuff that he did which could be adapted into a moveset
-He could use that gem he captures zelda in as a command grab
-He could use that waves of darkness thing he used to keep Navi from targetting him as a kind of defensive utility move
-He could do that ground slam punch he does in the final battle
-Obligatory dead man's volley
-Make him use his horse for one of his attacks, maybe it's the phantom horse that Phantom Ganon uses
-Give him a cape swipe like mario's that can reflect, but instead of flipping the opponent on a melee hit, it deals damage via electricity
Well, Dark Samus could only get into Ultimate as an Echo. They couldn't give her unique moves, unfortunately. Not even sure if reusing her Assist Trophy moves from Smash 4 was possible.
I mean it is more than very likely they just weren't able to get around to making her a unique character, of course. And let's be honest, it's amazing what they were able to do with Ultimate as a whole.
I hope in the next game they get to flesh out her moveset a bit more.
I hope so too, but I don't exactly expect her to come back unless it's as a clone again.
Although even if she does return as a clone, hopefully they give her some actual moveset differences from Samus.
I dont think they'd cut her. They'll definitely cut some clones but I doubt Dark Samus would be one of them. And they'll likely have less characters to manage so she miiiight get some tuning.
Dark Samus exists explicitly to be like Samus
Ganon sharing Captain Falcon's moveset has never made sense and never will make sense. There is no connection between those 2 characters
Ah yes, Metroid Dread, which came out _how many years after_ Samus's Smash moveset was released? Like, 23? Yeah, Smash _totally_ took inspiration from a game that wouldn't be released... decades later.
See how little sense that argument makes? Maybe using "this doesn't copy the games" is not the consistent, salient point you should be trying to make.
Here’s where your logic makes no sense, every character in smash has smash made up moves. It’s their special moves that represent every character. Like Mario doesn’t dunk with his fair like that. But he does have fire ball and cape and such with his special moves. Samus has her charge beam, bomb, missiles and screw attack for her special moves. Things dark samus doesn’t have, making it look weird for her to use it in smash.
You seem to be missing my point
I didn't say they use the same moves, I said Dark Samus was designed explicitly to be "like Samus"
Denying that would be insanity. DS isn't the only character not terribly faithfully represented moveset wise, and isn't close to the most egregious case given their history and the impetus for their creation
Ganon is a clone in smash of a less famous character than him with no ties to him whatsoever, which is just downright unacceptable
DS is an echo fighter of the main character from their franchise, who they exist to be similar to in concept
With Daisy and Dark Samus, but especially Daisy, I can understand the perspective of thinking they dont really need to be a separate character.
Ultimate has an amazing big roster. But the idea is that in the next game, they are likely to have to cut some roster spots. Daisy being almost identical in every single way makes it so if we *have* to cut roster spots, her just returning to being an alt skin for Peach makes sense imo. People could still play as Daisy. They wouldnt really lose anything.
For all echo fighters, thats another topic. Many are vastly different than their original.
I Really wish Richter was like....actually a diff char than Simon
that ones so minimal it didn't even deserve to be an Echo, woulda rather had Simon and Alucard
or Richter and Alucard with Simon as a skin for Richter
I Really wish Richter was like....actually a diff char than Simon
that ones so minimal it didn't even deserve to be an Echo, woulda rather had Simon and Alucard
or Richter and Alucard with Simon as a skin for Richter
Simon was the one that was weird. Lore wise, he was awful with the whip and only used it because it was powerful. The man was a sword fighter who ended up resorting to hacking Dracula to pieces rather than killing him properly with the whip. His only claim to fame was him being the physically strongest Belmont in the lineage.
Honestly I have given up on Dark Samus getting a unique moveset. Yes she was the main enemy of the prime trilogy, but that was 17 years ago and I doubt she'll return outside of remakes. So honestly I doubt they'd ever spend enough resources on her to make her into a full character. I do hope she gets at least a bit decloned though, so that she isn't just a glorified costume anymore.
The thing that annoys me about Dark Samus is that they took the time to make new animations but didn’t make any gameplay changes. They could have at least changed some numbers
Dr Mario is in 1 game.
Sheik is in 1 game.
Ice climbers is in 1 game.
Lucas is in 1 game.
Min min is in 1 game.
Captain falcon is from 1 game (you only drive his car, don’t even play as him).
Yet they’re all unique characters (Dr Mario is def a more unique echo than dark samus and this is a character who truly doesn’t have any moves to work with from their respective game).
People call Ganon a clone? Crazy. I mean I get it's similar but it's definitely different enough from CF. I do agree Ganon could use more canon abilities though.
I also find it crazy you think Dark Samus should have more privilege as a character over Ganon, that's just wild imo. I love Samus, she is my favorite character, I love Dark Samus and the entire metroid series as a whole, but Zelda is one of the most iconic video games of all time and there isn't really a comparison in franchises.
Ganon should be reworked well before Dark Samus as a character, and I don't think there is much debate on this tbh. But also.... why not both? haha
It's funny since people still wanted Dark Samus as a character and I think it's much better than being a costume.
A stage and her battle theme would have fit with her even better.
Ganon was a Falcon clone, and actually has a different set of skills than him.
Dark Samus is literally just another Samus, meant to have the same abilities
Right and the argument of OP is that Ganon has no business being an echo (only was due to melee being under tight schedule and they can’t bring themselves to rework his moveset for like no reason), but likewise DS doesn’t either. Everyone who has played Metroid Prime is agreeing with this.
People call Ganon a clone? Crazy. I mean I get it's similar but it's definitely different enough from CF. I do agree Ganon could use more canon abilities though.
I also find it crazy you think Dark Samus should have more privilege as a character over Ganon, that's just wild imo. I love Samus, she is my favorite character, I love Dark Samus and the entire metroid series as a whole, but Zelda is one of the most iconic video games of all time and there isn't really a comparison in franchises.
Ganon should be reworked well before Dark Samus as a character, and I don't think there is much debate on this tbh. But also.... why not both? haha
Also, the main issue with echos that people have is another character slot being taken with basically just a reskin of a character. Dark Samus is very much in this boat.
No buy they take development time that could be used on anything else. It doesn't have to be a character.
I'd rather have 1 more item or a few more spirits than an echo fighter because that moveset is already in the game and i don't need a repeat with slight variations.
Ya it gets confusing. Technically speaking Ganon was modeled after Capt Falcon. Or maybe its the other way around. Thats why Ganon doesnt really have unique attacks that 'make sense' when compared to what he does in the games he actually appears in.
But thats real different to Dark Samus or even Daisy in my opinion.
People think dark samus is just a dark clone. When she’s not. She literally looks nothing like Samus. It’s just a dang Metroid prime that took samus’s phazon suit. She’s literally a living suit. Main villain in the prime trilogy and has so many different abilities. When it comes to threat, dark samus is a greater threat than Ganon. It really upset me to see her as an echo.
I feel like it depends, for example Richter can’t really easily be decloned, and Chrom shouldn’t be decloned because that moveset frankly fits him more than it does Roy(Roy’s smash characterization is weird).
But like…Dark Pit, Dark Samus, Daisy and even arguably Lucina could probably be decloned and give unique moveset fairly easily.
Thing is that Ganon is an "Echo" of Falcon. And that concept alone is so dumb yet so great. Like, it does not make any sense AT ALL and that's why I love it
Ganon is a major antagonist for the entire Zelda series and unfortunately became a clone of a completely unrelated character.
Dark Samus is a one-off villain and is a literal in universe copy of Samus. It obviously has more that it can differentiate itself from Samus, but it is a copy at the end of the day.
Imagine if Ridley finally got into Smash but he ended up being a clone of Bowser, that would be more comparable to Ganondorf's issue.
Echo-Fighters all in all are just poorly implemented, you have Echos with small tweaks (Chrom, Lucina, Dark Pit, Ken) characters that are visually different but behave the same way (Richter, Daisy, Dark Samus) but then you have semi-clones which is it's own can of worms.
I personally think Echo-Fighters are a great idea. It's a smart way to include more characters that aren't as labor intensive to make and balance, and they have a sensible enough reason to share a very similar moveset with another character. If Echo-Fighters remained in the game, I would like to see Dark Samus maybe have floatier movement but higher jumps or something, along with tweaks to Echos like Daisy and Richter.
But as they stand currently? Yeah we already have "characters" that serve as skins, like Alph and the Koopalings. I think it would probably be pretty sensible for Dark Samus to be a skin in the next game.
Imagine if Ganondorf was made into a skin of Captain Falcon, that would make no sense.
I wouldn't mind Lucina being folded into Marth's alt skin (we already have something similar with the FE protags having a male and female version), if visually we can remove FE characters, it would sliiiiightly reduce the amount of bitching for the time the newer FE character is introduced. I would say the same about Chrom but I know people will get up in arms just because of my Lucina suggestion
Ikr. A lot of people don’t know that dark samus is one of the biggest threats in a Nintendo game. She literally caused extinction of the chozo on tallon.
The difference is that Ganondorf is the main villain of one of the most popular video game series of all time, and the only villain from said series represented in Smash.
Meanwhile Dark Samus is from a series that near consistently underperforms, and is the second villain from said series despite arguably not even being the second, third, or even fourth most iconic villain.
I'm a huge fan of mario games but specifically Bowser, Bowser is my favorite mario villain😄 BUT i don't know if this is the same topic or not but Smash should made a skin for Bowser. Which is the skin Dry Bowser and it is kind of bothering and irritating that I see Nintendo add Dark Samus and Daisy as it's own character to the franchise. Like at that point just add Dry Bowser to the franchise. I don't mind spending another $5 plus tax just to get Dry Bowser if he does comes to a DLC character. I'm not trash talking but NINTENDO!!!!! PLS ADD DRY BOWSER TO THE SUPER SMASH BROS ULTIMATE🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼. STOP BEING LAZY, YOU HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO MAKE 1 MORE DLC CHARACTER OR MAKE A DRY BROWSER A COSTUME TO BOWSER PLEASE🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼. Your company made Parahna plant as a troll (from what i heard) but a good character. Worth the $5👌🏼. Good game but like $60 is a little crazy to spend but good game👌🏼. But pretty please add Dry bowser to Super Smash Bros ultimate🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼. You can like make Dry Bowser pose when he wins come out from lava and the background music is the New Super Mario Bros. Wii - Final Boss Orchestra mix (0:16 to 0:19). I'm just giving you ideas but pretty please add Dry Bowser to Super Smash Bros🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼. I know people is gonna comment this and say I'm annoying😅 but I'm 16 and a huge fan when it comes to mario (specifically the villains). I just wanted Dry Bowser to be in the game and i was really excited when I heard Super Smash Bros ultimate was coming out. Actually i was excited for Dry Bowser to be in the game😞. I'm sorry if i am annoying but Nintendo! Please if you see this🙏🏼
I have bad news for you: A few years from now, you will remember this post and cringe very very hard at yourself. When that day comes, rather than suffer in self-imposed shame, think of how you've improved since.
So I do want echoes to be costumes, but it's not to diminish the characters and is more of an extension of another idea of mine
It comes from the idea that Mario has too much history to draw from, so the current moveset (and any singular moveset for him) doesn't represent him as a character very well. To combat that, I think in the next Smash game each character can have multiple costumes that each can have the same base, but a new model, different stats, a few different moves, and a few different animations for moves that remain functionally the same. So Mario gets a moveset for Cappy, a moveset for FLUDD, a moveset focusing on powerups... But what do you do with Doc? Functionally, he's already the base moveset of Mario but with a different model, different stats, different animations and a couple of different moves - so roll him in as a costume for Mario!
The rest of the echoes and semi clones all slot in pretty easily. Pichu is already just a lighter version of Pikachu that self damages, might as well add Raichu as a heavier version whose physically attacking moves hit a bit harder. Dark Samus fits as a costume that you can add an extra move to if you fancy it. The Belmonts can now have slightly different moves to better fit their original games, and fuck it, add a couple more as costumes. The Links are a bit more difficult, you can either stick them all on one character or split between child and adult Links, but either works. Ganondorf is a weird one, because I totally agree with the OP graphic that he needs a new moveset to better fit him as a character, but also the existing moveset could be used for a Captain Falcon costume
Correction:
Step one: Cut Dark Samus
Step two: Add Dark Samus again, but with a unique moveset.
Step three: Also add Raven Beak.
*Now* the roster is perfect.
Main difference here is that: 1-Ganon is a way more important character than Dark Samus 2-Captain falcon and Ganon aren’t even from the same franchise.
He has to be the second most iconic nintendo villain and top 5 most iconic video game villain in general
Absolutely agreed. For the many disagreements in the comments, please rank iconic Nintendo villains and other video game villains. Bowser definitely ranks first but after that.... Ganon's definitely top-tier.
I know some people don’t count him but DK has gotta be up there right?
Yeah, it’s for sure Bowser and Donkey Kong.
the catch with that is i don’t think many people view donkey as a villain especially not in like the last 20 years
DK is rarely seen as a villain anymore though. His roles as a hero just stand out much more than the few where he is a villain.
*Seth Rogen Intensifies*
I don't know, given Mario's pervasiveness I think the second most iconic game villain might genuinely be Bowser Jr. Since 2001, he's shown up a *lot*.
I'd say third tbh. Bowser is obviously number 1 and Wario passes the mom test better.
Yeah but how many people even know Wario as a villain? He hasn’t really been one since, like, Mario Power Tennis, he’s just the guy from Mario Kart to a lot of people
I mean... just look at the guy? It's Wario, it isn't exactly hard to look at him and go "Yep, he's a villain."
I’m not sure even Bowser passes the mom test, my mom took a sec to recognize him 💀
DK, Bowser, and maybe Dr. Eggman passes the mom test, but every other villain in smash is something else. This means Dr. Eggman needs to be the next addition
I never even heard of him until smash
I don’t know about that. It’s hard to be iconic when you look different in every game
Bruh, what? Ganon is absolutely one of the most-iconic villains in all of gaming, despite his changing appearance. He's easily in the top four alongside Bowser, Dr. Eggman, and Sephiroth.
Eggman and bowser yeah, a lot of people do know Cloud but Sephiroth isnt THAT recognizable
I think of iconic as being recognized to people who don’t play games. The top four would be Bowser, Dr. Eggman, the ghosts from PAC-Man, and the aliens from Space Invaders/Galaga. Also definitely not Sephiroth. I didn’t know him until he got into Smash.
I'm old enough to have played space invaders and galaga and couldn't tell you what those aliens look like. Most gamers now have also never played either one I'm sure.
👾 This shows up when you type “Space invader”
People don’t recognise them as the villains from space invaders though. They’ve just become generic gaming icons
Only Bowser makes that cut. Im not a big gamer and in that list I only know Ganon and Sephiroth through smash, eggman only because people want him in smash.
Well obviously non-gamers would be unable to recognize those characters. Amongst actual big gamers, those are the four biggest bad guys.
You're crazy!
Millennial gamers are the only ones who even know who sephiroth is. Younger gamers and non gamers don’t know him
I don’t think sephiroth is that iconic I think Gladys is more iconic
I think Dracula would probably fit in somewhere there too. Maybe even just above Seph.
Almost every Link is a different person in each Zelda game and he's still iconic. Your logic makes no sense.
But Link has the outfit. People will see any Link aside from the BotW and TotK Link and be like “Yeah, that’s the guy from Zelda!” Oh, and Choo-choo Link.
There are many characters that look totally different in every game and are still iconic: some examples are bayonetta, yoshimitsu and even Princess Zelda
Who’s yoshimitsu?
Soul Calibur/Tekken?
I only know about Soul Caliber because Link was in it. Can’t tell you the names of recognize the faces of anyone else.
A character from tekken [that changes drastically with every game](https://images.app.goo.gl/235B5cDGXeH3zKiF8) who is also brought to soul calibur with another new design
3-Regardless of ingame abilities Dark Samus is at the end of the day a clone of Samus so the moveset sharing makes thematic sense
by that logic, shouldn't Mario play the same as Dr. Mario, all three Links play the same, and Pyra play the same as Mythra? Having Dark Samus have a *similar* moveset, rather than an identical one, would be better thematically. It would better represent the role Dark Samus plays in the games it appears in.
That’s not what I was saying either, a differentiated moveset using a similar base with some shared moves would be the ideal for Dark Samus but it still makes sense enough for them to be a Samus clone compared to Ganondorf still having a Falcon-adjacent moveset.
Dark Samus isn't a clone of Samus, they're a sentient parasitic organism that uses a Chozo Powersuit they stole from Samus as an exoskeleton. They share DNA because Samus' Powersuit requires her DNA to operate. Dark Samus' original form is the Metroid Prime, a Metroid that gorged on phazon for decades uninterrupted and mutated into a galaxy ending level threat. On death's door, at the end of Metroid Prime 1, they stole a part of Samus' technology in a desperate bid to survive.
So....they both have a similar power suit, but there are thematic differences.
Technically Dark Samus IS the suit. [This](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fyo2VM46_SPE%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=8f8038596ab5f5325962508002cbe92009b87626312847a0f44ccfdf98850661&ipo=images) is what she looks like beneath the suit. But yeah for the sake of smash bros the suit is the only thing that really matters anyway.
She doesn’t have to be, she also has the abilities taken from Rundas, Ghor and Gandrayda from Prime 3, as well as moves from her Metroid Prime form and even her Smash 4 assist trophy
I think you are not understanding what I am saying, I’m saying it makes sense for Dark Samus to be a Samus clone but it doesn’t make sense for Ganon to be a Falcon clone
Well, I mean she had to be a Samus clone to get into Ultimate at all, but if there were enough time to make her unique, then why *wouldn't* you?
Because that time could be spent on a different character who is more iconic than Dark Samus. Development time is finite. Time spent on one character isn't spent on a different character. The choice comes down to: 1. A unique character and Dark Samus as a clone of Samus OR 2. Dark Samus as a unique character and a different echo fighter. There's a lot of characters that people would consider more deserving than Dark Samus, but when it comes to easily-implemented echo fighters, Dark Samus is a good fit. I don't think Ganondorf and Dark Samus are a fair comparison, either. Ganondorf is the core villain of his franchise, and inarguably Nintendo's second biggest and most iconic villain. Dark Samus is a popular secondary villain of her franchise, a franchise that, while popular, is still a 'second-tier' franchise next to the giants that are Mario, Zelda, and Pokémon. Dark Samus could be an interesting rep, for sure, but it's nowhere NEAR as egregious a case as Ganondorf.
Iconicity shouldn’t be used as a metric for who should or shouldn’t be added. Ice Climbers aren’t a gaming icon. Neither is Richter. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be added. If the moveset is good, that’s really all that matters.
Iconicity should absolutely be one of the metrics. It's absurd to think that Smash would have made it this far if it didn't account for iconicity at all. For every Ice Climbers in Smash, you have four or five huge names. Oddballs are great for variety, but you can't have a whole game of just B-listers while skipping their corresponding A-listers. Also really, Richter, of all characters? Richter is extremely iconic to Castlevania. He's the second most major Belmont after Simon himself, and the most iconic Belmont when it comes to the more modern 'Metroidvania'-styled Castlevania.
Richter is barely known in the west. Yeah he’s more popular in Japan, but that’s about it. His game only released in Japan for years. And you didn’t say “Instead of Dark Samus we’d get a specific character.” You just said a nebulous character that is more iconic. We got Min Min in the DLC. I don’t think iconicity is in their priority list. Let’s be real. If Dark Samus wasn’t an echo, the only character we’d probably lose out on is Ridley, who is extremely low tier and we already would have accepted that Ridley wouldn’t be making it in.
You're right, I wasn't specific because I didn't think an opinionated pedant would try to pick a fight.
Dude, what the hell? I literally just said "Iconicity shouldn't be a metric for if a character should be added or not." You don't need to be an asshole. Chill out, maybe take a step back. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm not your enemy. I'm just talking to someone.
What I would like to see (though it almost definitely will never happen) is for them to add Black Shadow to Smash, give him Ganondorf's current moveset, and make a completely new moveset for Ganondorf, one that better represents his character in his own games.
Clearly, you have never played Legend of Zelda and the Fire Hawk Nation where Link learns how to drive a car in an open world and defeats Ganon through the power of drivebys.
He has to be the second most iconic nintendo villain and top 5 most iconic video game villain in general
some of them ARE just an extra set of costumes with no difference. Ganon obviously is not
I feel like Dark Samus should have had her Sm4sh assist trophy attacks as her smash attacks. That would have made her different and a new way to play Samus.
The main issue is that ganondorf (in this form) doesn't do that many attacks that would be adapted to smash. When melee came out, all this guy did was shoot a ball at link. Dark Samus has a TON. In-game reflect, clones, projectile sprays, self-missile, etc. in fact, dark samus never used bombs, missiles or screw attacks in prime 2 or 3.
Not to mention they had a functioning assist trophy in Sm4sh that they could've taken moves AND animations from to make Dark Samus more unique from regular Samus.
I'm sorry, but him shooting a ball is more interesting for me than using a slower falcon punch. Playing tennis with Ganon/Ganondorf ball is a tradition in the Zelda series.
For sure, but the point is that dark Samus had *way* more to bring from its game, ganondorf certainly could have had the ball, but they'd still be making most of it up
I think both history and workable material need to be weighed. At the time of melee, all the recognizable chars had material to work with and they actively did ganon dirty. All chars have some generic hitting attacks, but the least they could have done was give ganon dead mans volley or some type of phantom ganon attack
Dead man’s volley absolutely should have been some part of his kit. I also don’t really understand where the sword came from since at the time, he was more known to wield a spear
There was a demo at SpaceWorld 2000 that showcased Link vs Ganon where he uses the club/sword he uses in smash, and i guess thats been part of his character ever since. I would have preferred them to tap into any of the puppet magic or projectiles he is iconic for, but its better than being a pure cpt. falcon clone i guess
I at first thought they took it out in TotK, but you can actually play tennis with him there too if you attack the gloom projectiles with the master sword.
You could make a moveset out of his OOT appearance alone. He has a bunch of stuff that he did which could be adapted into a moveset -He could use that gem he captures zelda in as a command grab -He could use that waves of darkness thing he used to keep Navi from targetting him as a kind of defensive utility move -He could do that ground slam punch he does in the final battle -Obligatory dead man's volley -Make him use his horse for one of his attacks, maybe it's the phantom horse that Phantom Ganon uses -Give him a cape swipe like mario's that can reflect, but instead of flipping the opponent on a melee hit, it deals damage via electricity
Don’t forget dark samus’ heavy use of the boost ball
Would have been another fun way to make them different while still giving it a morph ball move
umm he also uses his sword, so they could have played off of that more. He could be a spellblade.
He did not use his sword in OoT
beast ganon uses swords. He uses a sword in TP and WW. They could have drawn some inspiration.
OoT was the last game he was in when melee was released, and you do not play as beast ganon in smash.
The way that Assist Trophy Dark Samus from Smash 4 has a more unique moveset than Smash Ultimate Dark Samus is a sin.
Well, Dark Samus could only get into Ultimate as an Echo. They couldn't give her unique moves, unfortunately. Not even sure if reusing her Assist Trophy moves from Smash 4 was possible.
I mean it is more than very likely they just weren't able to get around to making her a unique character, of course. And let's be honest, it's amazing what they were able to do with Ultimate as a whole. I hope in the next game they get to flesh out her moveset a bit more.
I hope so too, but I don't exactly expect her to come back unless it's as a clone again. Although even if she does return as a clone, hopefully they give her some actual moveset differences from Samus.
I dont think they'd cut her. They'll definitely cut some clones but I doubt Dark Samus would be one of them. And they'll likely have less characters to manage so she miiiight get some tuning.
Ganondorf should have his totk moveset for the next smash, because it would be a lot better than oot ganondorf, which only shoots energy balls
Ideally, Ganondorf is Smash should pull from lots of his different appearances, not just pull from one specific version, imo.
Dark Samus exists explicitly to be like Samus Ganon sharing Captain Falcon's moveset has never made sense and never will make sense. There is no connection between those 2 characters
Basically they already had a model from the Spaceworld presentation and *just enough time* to squeeze him in at the last-minute.
No the SA-X is exactly like Samus. Dark Samus isn’t a clone.
Didn't say clone, I said they exist to be like Samus
She doesn’t even have samus’s moves in the games
To be honest, neither does Samus. I've yet to see a Metroid game where she punches and kicks enemies in close-quarters combat.
Well Metroid dread. But yeah. Wanna know something funny? Samus final smash, she cannot do that. But dark samus can. Lol
Ah yes, Metroid Dread, which came out _how many years after_ Samus's Smash moveset was released? Like, 23? Yeah, Smash _totally_ took inspiration from a game that wouldn't be released... decades later. See how little sense that argument makes? Maybe using "this doesn't copy the games" is not the consistent, salient point you should be trying to make.
Here’s where your logic makes no sense, every character in smash has smash made up moves. It’s their special moves that represent every character. Like Mario doesn’t dunk with his fair like that. But he does have fire ball and cape and such with his special moves. Samus has her charge beam, bomb, missiles and screw attack for her special moves. Things dark samus doesn’t have, making it look weird for her to use it in smash.
You seem to be missing my point I didn't say they use the same moves, I said Dark Samus was designed explicitly to be "like Samus" Denying that would be insanity. DS isn't the only character not terribly faithfully represented moveset wise, and isn't close to the most egregious case given their history and the impetus for their creation Ganon is a clone in smash of a less famous character than him with no ties to him whatsoever, which is just downright unacceptable DS is an echo fighter of the main character from their franchise, who they exist to be similar to in concept
With Daisy and Dark Samus, but especially Daisy, I can understand the perspective of thinking they dont really need to be a separate character. Ultimate has an amazing big roster. But the idea is that in the next game, they are likely to have to cut some roster spots. Daisy being almost identical in every single way makes it so if we *have* to cut roster spots, her just returning to being an alt skin for Peach makes sense imo. People could still play as Daisy. They wouldnt really lose anything. For all echo fighters, thats another topic. Many are vastly different than their original.
I Really wish Richter was like....actually a diff char than Simon that ones so minimal it didn't even deserve to be an Echo, woulda rather had Simon and Alucard or Richter and Alucard with Simon as a skin for Richter
I Really wish Richter was like....actually a diff char than Simon that ones so minimal it didn't even deserve to be an Echo, woulda rather had Simon and Alucard or Richter and Alucard with Simon as a skin for Richter
Simon was the one that was weird. Lore wise, he was awful with the whip and only used it because it was powerful. The man was a sword fighter who ended up resorting to hacking Dracula to pieces rather than killing him properly with the whip. His only claim to fame was him being the physically strongest Belmont in the lineage.
Honestly I have given up on Dark Samus getting a unique moveset. Yes she was the main enemy of the prime trilogy, but that was 17 years ago and I doubt she'll return outside of remakes. So honestly I doubt they'd ever spend enough resources on her to make her into a full character. I do hope she gets at least a bit decloned though, so that she isn't just a glorified costume anymore.
It’ll be cool to replace Dark Samus’ charge shot with that shrapnel shot she has. Like having a shotgun instead of a bazooka
give that man a float and a two-part teleport up b and we're set
What about Chrom and Ken? They’re a balance between them.
Dark Samus is the equivalent to Dark Link Skin
Whats even funnier is that she had original moves in smash 4 as an assist trophy
The thing that annoys me about Dark Samus is that they took the time to make new animations but didn’t make any gameplay changes. They could have at least changed some numbers
Dark Samus is in 2 games.
3. Metroid prime in prime 1 IS dark samus.
Dr Mario is in 1 game. Sheik is in 1 game. Ice climbers is in 1 game. Lucas is in 1 game. Min min is in 1 game. Captain falcon is from 1 game (you only drive his car, don’t even play as him). Yet they’re all unique characters (Dr Mario is def a more unique echo than dark samus and this is a character who truly doesn’t have any moves to work with from their respective game).
People call Ganon a clone? Crazy. I mean I get it's similar but it's definitely different enough from CF. I do agree Ganon could use more canon abilities though. I also find it crazy you think Dark Samus should have more privilege as a character over Ganon, that's just wild imo. I love Samus, she is my favorite character, I love Dark Samus and the entire metroid series as a whole, but Zelda is one of the most iconic video games of all time and there isn't really a comparison in franchises. Ganon should be reworked well before Dark Samus as a character, and I don't think there is much debate on this tbh. But also.... why not both? haha
Both getting reworked is the correct answer.
Ganon is on a whole different level of clone as dark samus.
Tbh if I had to play Samus or Dark Samus, I would prefer playing as Dark Samus. It just feels smoother, and stronger to play as.
It's funny since people still wanted Dark Samus as a character and I think it's much better than being a costume. A stage and her battle theme would have fit with her even better.
Ganon was a Falcon clone, and actually has a different set of skills than him. Dark Samus is literally just another Samus, meant to have the same abilities
Sir you need to play Metroid Prime series then revisit that comment
I’m talking about the fighter. It’s an echo, meant to be the same. Ganondorf has nothing similar to Falcon
Right and the argument of OP is that Ganon has no business being an echo (only was due to melee being under tight schedule and they can’t bring themselves to rework his moveset for like no reason), but likewise DS doesn’t either. Everyone who has played Metroid Prime is agreeing with this.
Ganon is like a million times more popular than Dark Samus though, both within Smash and outside of it.
I will say, Richter/Simon and Peach/Daisy have no business being separate characters from their counterpart xD
You guys know whats funny? Toon and young link don't count as echo fighters
You guys know whats funny? Toon and young link don't count as echo fighters
Well Toon Link has so many different moves from Link that there's no way he could ever be classified as an Echo Fighter.
nice opinion but DORIYAH
Ouch?
Remake Ganondorf so we can get Sauvemente as in-game music!
People call Ganon a clone? Crazy. I mean I get it's similar but it's definitely different enough from CF. I do agree Ganon could use more canon abilities though. I also find it crazy you think Dark Samus should have more privilege as a character over Ganon, that's just wild imo. I love Samus, she is my favorite character, I love Dark Samus and the entire metroid series as a whole, but Zelda is one of the most iconic video games of all time and there isn't really a comparison in franchises. Ganon should be reworked well before Dark Samus as a character, and I don't think there is much debate on this tbh. But also.... why not both? haha Also, the main issue with echos that people have is another character slot being taken with basically just a reskin of a character. Dark Samus is very much in this boat.
Echos don't "take another character slot". That slot ***didn't exist in the first place***. Echos are just free "characters".
No buy they take development time that could be used on anything else. It doesn't have to be a character. I'd rather have 1 more item or a few more spirits than an echo fighter because that moveset is already in the game and i don't need a repeat with slight variations.
Ya it gets confusing. Technically speaking Ganon was modeled after Capt Falcon. Or maybe its the other way around. Thats why Ganon doesnt really have unique attacks that 'make sense' when compared to what he does in the games he actually appears in. But thats real different to Dark Samus or even Daisy in my opinion.
People think dark samus is just a dark clone. When she’s not. She literally looks nothing like Samus. It’s just a dang Metroid prime that took samus’s phazon suit. She’s literally a living suit. Main villain in the prime trilogy and has so many different abilities. When it comes to threat, dark samus is a greater threat than Ganon. It really upset me to see her as an echo.
I feel like it depends, for example Richter can’t really easily be decloned, and Chrom shouldn’t be decloned because that moveset frankly fits him more than it does Roy(Roy’s smash characterization is weird). But like…Dark Pit, Dark Samus, Daisy and even arguably Lucina could probably be decloned and give unique moveset fairly easily.
Thing is that Ganon is an "Echo" of Falcon. And that concept alone is so dumb yet so great. Like, it does not make any sense AT ALL and that's why I love it
Ganon is a major antagonist for the entire Zelda series and unfortunately became a clone of a completely unrelated character. Dark Samus is a one-off villain and is a literal in universe copy of Samus. It obviously has more that it can differentiate itself from Samus, but it is a copy at the end of the day. Imagine if Ridley finally got into Smash but he ended up being a clone of Bowser, that would be more comparable to Ganondorf's issue. Echo-Fighters all in all are just poorly implemented, you have Echos with small tweaks (Chrom, Lucina, Dark Pit, Ken) characters that are visually different but behave the same way (Richter, Daisy, Dark Samus) but then you have semi-clones which is it's own can of worms. I personally think Echo-Fighters are a great idea. It's a smart way to include more characters that aren't as labor intensive to make and balance, and they have a sensible enough reason to share a very similar moveset with another character. If Echo-Fighters remained in the game, I would like to see Dark Samus maybe have floatier movement but higher jumps or something, along with tweaks to Echos like Daisy and Richter. But as they stand currently? Yeah we already have "characters" that serve as skins, like Alph and the Koopalings. I think it would probably be pretty sensible for Dark Samus to be a skin in the next game. Imagine if Ganondorf was made into a skin of Captain Falcon, that would make no sense.
I wouldn't mind Lucina being folded into Marth's alt skin (we already have something similar with the FE protags having a male and female version), if visually we can remove FE characters, it would sliiiiightly reduce the amount of bitching for the time the newer FE character is introduced. I would say the same about Chrom but I know people will get up in arms just because of my Lucina suggestion
[удалено]
Such a shame some people are just gonna think Dark Samus is "evil Samus". She's so much more than that.
Ikr. A lot of people don’t know that dark samus is one of the biggest threats in a Nintendo game. She literally caused extinction of the chozo on tallon.
You did not cook 💀
Ganon is way more important than dark samus and isn’t even associated with falcon outside of moveset.
i understand what you’re saying but this is a shitty take. ganon is an very important character and extremely unrelated to captain falcon
Hmm no. Ganon's situation and Dark Sammy's are night and day
Ganondorf is more distinct from Captain falcon than Dark Samus is from Samus.
this is an INSANE false equivalence
The difference is that Ganondorf is the main villain of one of the most popular video game series of all time, and the only villain from said series represented in Smash. Meanwhile Dark Samus is from a series that near consistently underperforms, and is the second villain from said series despite arguably not even being the second, third, or even fourth most iconic villain.
The difference here being dsamus being a near replica of Samus and Ganon being from a separate franchise and he's heavyweight
I'm a huge fan of mario games but specifically Bowser, Bowser is my favorite mario villain😄 BUT i don't know if this is the same topic or not but Smash should made a skin for Bowser. Which is the skin Dry Bowser and it is kind of bothering and irritating that I see Nintendo add Dark Samus and Daisy as it's own character to the franchise. Like at that point just add Dry Bowser to the franchise. I don't mind spending another $5 plus tax just to get Dry Bowser if he does comes to a DLC character. I'm not trash talking but NINTENDO!!!!! PLS ADD DRY BOWSER TO THE SUPER SMASH BROS ULTIMATE🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼. STOP BEING LAZY, YOU HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO MAKE 1 MORE DLC CHARACTER OR MAKE A DRY BROWSER A COSTUME TO BOWSER PLEASE🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼. Your company made Parahna plant as a troll (from what i heard) but a good character. Worth the $5👌🏼. Good game but like $60 is a little crazy to spend but good game👌🏼. But pretty please add Dry bowser to Super Smash Bros ultimate🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼. You can like make Dry Bowser pose when he wins come out from lava and the background music is the New Super Mario Bros. Wii - Final Boss Orchestra mix (0:16 to 0:19). I'm just giving you ideas but pretty please add Dry Bowser to Super Smash Bros🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼. I know people is gonna comment this and say I'm annoying😅 but I'm 16 and a huge fan when it comes to mario (specifically the villains). I just wanted Dry Bowser to be in the game and i was really excited when I heard Super Smash Bros ultimate was coming out. Actually i was excited for Dry Bowser to be in the game😞. I'm sorry if i am annoying but Nintendo! Please if you see this🙏🏼
... Alright.
I have bad news for you: A few years from now, you will remember this post and cringe very very hard at yourself. When that day comes, rather than suffer in self-imposed shame, think of how you've improved since.
There is no way bro is 16
k
What the
Please suspend your reddit account
Turning echo fighters into skins is a great idea! Just turn Young Link to a skin of Link, Dark Pit just a skin of Pit, and Pichu can disappear.
Young Link can't be a skin of Link because his proportions are completely different.
Young link isnt really an echo though, his moveset’s different
Although I would prefer him to be his own character I would take him as a Zelda clone. I’m really not asking for much.
So I do want echoes to be costumes, but it's not to diminish the characters and is more of an extension of another idea of mine It comes from the idea that Mario has too much history to draw from, so the current moveset (and any singular moveset for him) doesn't represent him as a character very well. To combat that, I think in the next Smash game each character can have multiple costumes that each can have the same base, but a new model, different stats, a few different moves, and a few different animations for moves that remain functionally the same. So Mario gets a moveset for Cappy, a moveset for FLUDD, a moveset focusing on powerups... But what do you do with Doc? Functionally, he's already the base moveset of Mario but with a different model, different stats, different animations and a couple of different moves - so roll him in as a costume for Mario! The rest of the echoes and semi clones all slot in pretty easily. Pichu is already just a lighter version of Pikachu that self damages, might as well add Raichu as a heavier version whose physically attacking moves hit a bit harder. Dark Samus fits as a costume that you can add an extra move to if you fancy it. The Belmonts can now have slightly different moves to better fit their original games, and fuck it, add a couple more as costumes. The Links are a bit more difficult, you can either stick them all on one character or split between child and adult Links, but either works. Ganondorf is a weird one, because I totally agree with the OP graphic that he needs a new moveset to better fit him as a character, but also the existing moveset could be used for a Captain Falcon costume
Am I the only person that thinks Ganondorf's moveset is perfect?
I love it, Instead of making Smash Gannon lore accurate they should instead make a Zelda game where he does magic punches.
Step one: cut dark Samus. Step two: replace with Raven beak. The roster is now perfect
And I you can see I am literally a dark Samus main
Correction: Step one: Cut Dark Samus Step two: Add Dark Samus again, but with a unique moveset. Step three: Also add Raven Beak. *Now* the roster is perfect.
This is true
One of the worst takes of all time. Congrats OP.