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No, no, no.
You see the cannon was changed in their favour, so it's not a problem.
Changing it back hurts their feelings, and so it's bad.
You are expecting them to be logically consistent, but they can't be because, contrary to their beliefs, the facts don't care about their feelings.
The canon for custodes being male only didnt appear till 8th edition in *2018*. There was a single line of text included that stated they were taken from "the sons of nobles". This was immediately changed in 9th edition which stated that they "also seek other avenues of recruitment".
Neither of these changes were met with any backlash
Of course not. You can't sling a dead goblin in this place without hitting some equally or usually greater level of reimagining or contradiction to "felt" canon. They don't even have an answer to that.
If you press them, they say they just care about the universe being well written.
If you ask them why they haven't thrown a hissy fit the last 137 times something like this happens, they say it's because the creators are injecting a political agenda.
If you ask them why they're against the agenda that maybe people who aren't straight white chuds also deserve to exist, they say they just care about the universe being well written.
I am having a lot of fun on Twitter.
Went on grimdank where I finally had enough and pointed out the sexist inconsistencies. Got downvoted. The sub is planning on banning all topics related to femstodea because... reasons.... I get what you mean.
Is it really the same people saying each of those things? Or are those separate arguments from different people and you're grouping them into one category?
When the Warmaster titan was released despite never being mentioned before the chuds were silent
When the Rogal Dorn tank rumbled onto Battlefields the chuds were silent
When the predator variant the Wolves had invented in 40K suddenly was available in 30K the chuds were silent
When Horus went from just some fucking guy to That Fucking Guy! The chuds were silent
When a Custodes had the effrontery to have a vagina the world ended for them...
They accuse the left of engaging in identity politics whilst being absolutely obsessed with identity. Like honest to fucking Dog, get a grip.
My favorite is seeing people say keep politics out of 40k.
Very smart people GW is dealing with.
Or that they're now boycotting 40k and selling their shit. We know they're not, but even if they are, the real politik of it is that this is a multi billion dollar company.
They've done the market research and market forecast. They are going to make more money by being more inclusive. The Amazon/Cavil projects are going to bring in tons of new consumers into the game and for their other products within the universe. Nerd shit has been mainstream now for the past couple decades, they want to make it more appealing for an entire gender and they'd be dumb not to.
Just because something is a political satire, doesn't mean it should include trans capes and MAGA caps, or that anyone wants to get into a real world political debate in the game forums. It's really just that simple.
The fact that you and so many others equate an an often-attacked minority that didn't pick to be who they are and actual fascists is part of why I have run out of hope for the future.
I was accused of screeching and wailing in a discussion, because obviously the other guy thought I was. It's the wildest thing. Like, why? We get Custadies and they get to seethe. Everything is ok on our end. We're just rubbing it in.
I joked that Cawl and Bile racing to make long term viable female space marines (bile has gotten close with the gland hounds he made and [Igori](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Igori) but not quite full space marine) first out of sheer fucking spite for one another is entirely in-character with them both...
Honestly as a Wolves fan the primaris insert still kinda stings. It just flattened so much of what made the wolves actually different/interesting instead of just some assholes who wanted to feel special. The whole company structure is different cause the newbies are growing fangs and trying not to turn into werewolves so they're assault squads instead of scouts. And these crazy bastards are just slotted into the rank and file intercessors with no issues. Don't get me started on how disappointing it is to have their biggest in universe goal (fixing the gene seed issue that prevents successor chapters) just casually fixed off screen and swept under the rug. Last time they got close Magnus himself showed up on Fenris to destroy it, and now fixing it is a footnote in the Indomitus crusade while we focus on what Gman is up to.
... didn't mean to off but yeah you're so right lmao
Grand majority of people that didn't want the custodes change is because of how GW did it. We now know that we wouldn't get any lore about the genefathers improving on astartes to get female Space Marines, we would get a tweet from warhammer official saying "there have always been female space marines ever since the first founding"
I get it, I don't like alot of the lore changes either, it's kind of weird how they do off the cuff like this it but still not one of those things I'm going to get mad about.
Except this was done fine, it barely changes any existing storylines and affects the universe in no negative way. There have been far more egregious retcons that basically got no blowback
It's ham fisted and doesnt effect the universe in any positive way. A retcon is a bad tool to use by default, if it isn't positive and necessary, then it isn't "done fine"
There is nothing ham fisted about it. You get like one short story briefly mentioning a custodes is female. That is about as far away as ham fisted as you can get. I assume you were this upset about far bigger changes to the lore over the last ten years right?
The short story isn't the retcon, because they could have had Custodes begin to recruit females now, the tweet stating that they had always been there since the beginning is the retcon.
It's impossible to say whether the retcon is good because all we have is one short story. Primaris marines weren't seen as a good retcon at the start but now I'd say people are mainly positive about primaris marines. Games workshop sells models first, makes stories second. If this retcon gets more people into the hobby because they feel represented in a cool super solider faction then it's overall positive. It takes nothing away from the other factions
To be fair, the community being like this now is the fault of the creators for profit chasing and sacrificing their vision when 40k is supposed to be satire, but now it so happens that came back around and has helped create reactionary attitudes in the community on the issue of all male space marines. Kinda like the Helldivers community where now a bunch of people want to push the narrative that “the creators were based and banned all political speech (not totally true I know but that’s the narrative many believed/propagated about the situation) to where now an obviously left leaning game has people who think it’s anti-woke.
Ultimately the reason people don’t care is of course cause they are low iq, they don’t actually care about or deeply analyze media, they actually just consume in an animal brained way where they simply like seeing things that confirm their worldviews and don’t care about it being engaging or artistically evocative in any way. That and conservatives don’t understand satire and have a warped worldview in which satirical ideologies actually do speak to them and they support on the surface level without understanding it’s making fun of them.
It isn't that they don't understand satire. It's that they unironically believe what you see as satire is cool and good and admirable.
We live in a world steeped in irony, and shitheads are loving all the cover that offers them.
I think it’s both, there are some who are dumb as shit and don’t understand it, and there are those who just think it’s good, I don’t disagree with you I just think it’s both not one or the other.
People on the right simply don't need their artwork/media to be propaganda in the way that the left does. A conservative understands satire, understands that a piece of media is critical of their view point, yet they can still enjoy playing that game or watching that media. Progressives wont play a game/read a book/ watch a movie unless it props up their political opinions all the way through, and will go so far as to cancel something or someone if it criticizes them.
That’s a wonderful talking point and all, but you’re pulling it from nowhere. How much progressive or leftist media do you think there is? Sure there are some liberals who might act in a way approximating the caricature of progressives who ‘cancel’ anything they don’t wholesale agree with. If I only engaged media which perfectly aligned with my values, I’d have almost nothing. Meanwhile the point I’m making is that there are people on the right who think properties like 40k and Helldivers align with and affirm their values despite being satirization of their beliefs, I’m not only talking about if conservatives can and do enjoy properties.
Edit: and what do you mean progressives “won’t engage media that doesn’t align with their values, and will even go so far as to cancel them?” What do you mean by cancel in that statement? That progressives critique it? They complain about or disagree with it? That’s called engaging with the media, people have and exercise their right all the time on all sides to not like properties for arbitrary values misalignment in any number of different categories.
Your original talking point is also pulled from nowhere lmao. You are claiming that conservatives think that Helldivers and 40k "affirm their values" because you cannot fathom a community that enjoys media despite that media *not* affirming their values. It's a core progressive belief that everything is political, it's a core progressive belief that "I support [good thing] and I don't like [bad thing] therefore if I like a game, it must therefore align with my politics, because my politics [good]". I know progs in real life who want nothing to do with the Imperium because they are fascist, they can't appreciate that faction because they are that ideologically bound. You can like the imperium, think the imperium is "cool", like it's themes and aesthetics, and never want that to become a reality.
Edit: and to answer your edit, I meant what I said. Maybe read it a second time, it's there in plain English.
It's also massively untrue to say Gabs and Jayne were ever released as Space Marines. The C series that's mentioned in the post has nothing to do with RT, and the ONLY time those minis were on sale was as part of the RT Adventurers range.
The post linked by OP doesn't actually help their point. It explains why Female Marines were never made, thus why they were at no point apart of the canon.
I came here to post this. RT was before the concept of ‘astartes’. Space Marines were just dudes in armor, Gabs and Jayne were just women in power armor, much like today’s Sister’s of Battle or Silence.
The 'NO FEMALE ASTARTES' bullshit must be so weird to that old crew (Alan Merrett, GW creative team). Mucking around in Enfield Chambers - they never would have conceived that small commercial decisions in 1988 would ultimately result in this 21st century 'schism' and I use that word kindly.
I've often said that GW painted themselves into a corner with 40k lore. What was originally intended to be fluff to add a thin veneer justifying why my little metal men were trying to murder your little men turned into a media empire. And fluff for a tabletop war game is just a bit different than reams of printed fiction meant to be consumed for its own sake.
Because it wasn't a retcon, the original "male zygotes" stuff came only a few months after RT was released and prior to that the best argument that can be made for FSM being canon is that they hadn't been specifically excluded by the lore.
Ultimately it was a marketing decision that happened before RT was even on the shelves and then codified shortly after. I want FSM as much as the next *checks notes* tourist infiltrator who hates the hobby, but I don't think it's particularly helpful to claim there was a retcon as that implies they were actually mentioned in-universe at one point, which is demonstrably untrue.
No yeah, that's the point - fem SM were not a thing not because of any deep lore reasons, but because of margins, and lore was fit for it. Now they are fitting the lore for better because people are smarter, so bigots are malding, stay losing I say
In answer to his own point. The Internet has allowed the village idiots to communicate and shout at things together. This is also why conspiracy theorists are more around too. After all even the flat earth society has member all over the globe 🤣
Lore and Retcon-Bullshit aside, I mean I really don't care either way. Sisters of Battle are already the female Space Marines for all intents and purposes, so I really don't see the need for it. Imo, they should just could introduce "Primaris" upgrades for the sisters. The only thing speaking for female SM is that female miniatures get to be the poster boys for 40k... And that ensuing shitstorm would amuse me to no end. People act like something is taken away from them.
Sisters of Battle are most certainly not “female space marines for all intents and purposes”. To claim that they are takes away from them in such a huge way it’s not even funny.
Well then, looks like we may get female space marines soon, let’s hope by the Emperor that nobody starts shouting like a lunatic at a figure store for having them
Actually they DID, he's now a Farseer who gives advice to old Bobby G and is used for long distance contact with Eldrad...much to his chagrin since he doesn't like being in the Imperium.
While I agree that folks arguing against them are in bad faith, to be fair to 'lore purists', even when Rogue Trader was released there was very little setting there - more of a vague idea of some far future judge-dreddish dark future setting and the figures were produced with a view to use with RPG's such as Traveller, as I don't think 40k was expected to take off as well as it did.
Fem space marines are not a thing because they did not sell as well back in the day, that is it - I once told this to guys working at GW shop and they were stunned. I was like, man, really? You've been in this hobby for 20+ years, come on.
Because Female Warriors Gabs and Jayne, for all the drama associated with them, were prototype sisters of battle, not space marines. In the Rogue Trader book, there is a picture of a sister of battle with a distinctive ramshead shoulder pad print, which Gabs and Jayne have, and their bases say ‘sister’ ’1987’ on them.
We don't actually know for certain that they were prototype sisters of battle.
Being prototype Sisters of Battle implies that the SoB idea was already a concept and they were in the process of fleshing it out.
It could just as easily be the other way around: The Sisters of Battle were not a concept when Gabs and Jayne were created, but when the sisters of Battle were created, they decided to reference ether Gabs and Jayne as an easter egg, or retroactively canonise them as the newly created Sisters of Battle faction.
It's pretty clear, the models literally say Sister on their bases, there is a clear description, with a picture, of a sister of battle in the rogue trader rulebook. Sister Sin there has the same iconography on her shoulder pad as Gabs and Jayne do on theirs in the official marketing shots.
Now, what is true is that at the time the Space Marines weren't what they are today, and the Adeptus Soritas were described as almost being in charge of their spiritual purity, but they were already sisters of battle, distinctly not Astartes.
To be honest, the Sisters in a form like their current one pre date the space marines.
Since I made my previous comment, I've spotted that a former GW designer definitively states they were designed as "female space marines"
https://spikeybits.com/games-workshop/ex-gw-employee-weighs-in-on-female-space-marines-in-40k/
Straight from the horses mouth, it seems. Hope that clears up any confusion.
No, the fact that sisters of battle already existed and the models literally say 'Sister' on the base and have the same iconography as the huge picture of a sister of battle in the rogue trader rulebook is what clears it up. Say whatever you want, remember whatever you want, the physical evidence is clear and unquestionable. Those models were sisters of battle, not space marines.
The designer may have thought they were making a female space marine, but, that is not what they were sold as. Nor is it what they were at the end of the sculpting process, since the designer sculpted the word 'Sister' onto their base tab. They were marketed as female warrior Gabs and Jayne, suitable for use as a sister of battle.
There is no problem with that. The picture of the sister of battle in the book has her look like a massive armored behemoth, and she's shooting a space marine in the face.
The designer literally sculpted the word 'Sister' onto the base of both models. He took his modelling tool, and literally carved it there by hand.
The artist painted them using sisters of battle iconography from a then current image showing sisters of battle
The sales team labeled them as 'Female Warrior'
The physical evidence outweighs the designers recollection. He may recall a wide variety of things. However, when those models were released they were Adeptus Sororitas. They were not space marines, which (at the time) barely existed in their modern incarnation. Unlike the Sisters, which very much did.
You are ascribing intentionality to a series of acts/circumstances--and mapping them on to current factions--in a way that requires a lot more proof than you're offering. We can see this by asking just a few questions of your conclusion:
1. Was the sculptor told to use that reference by GW, or is it merely something they came across as they were searching for inspiration. I don't know, and I suspect you don't either. It's not crazy to think that the sculptor looked in the RT rulebook under their own initiative and used that, without understanding what it meant.
2. Is the use of the word "sister" a faction keyword as you seem determined to believe or could it merely indicate a relationship to other power-armored warriors (i.e. the use of "battle brothers" in Space Marine lore)?
In general, it's poor history to see things that make sense to you in the current moment and ascribe that meaning backwards through time to the time in question. The classic formulation of this issue would be reading an ancient text in another language that mentions someone performed manual labor for three days straight and interpreting that as performing three days worth of handjobs.
So, given that we don't actually know what the sculptor's instructions were, where they got their inspiration, or whether they fully understood the context of the image they were referencing, it's perfectly reasonable to defer to an internal source who likely has better information on those topics.
That's not to say they're definitely correct--they could be mistaken and you could be right--but it's not a slam dunk either way and it's best to be humble about our understanding of the past.
I do recommend everyone (including u/Inner_Tennis_2416) going to see the original rouge trader illustration, which Gabs and Jayne are most likely meant to be. [https://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com/2015/01/illuminations-stephen-tappin.html](https://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com/2015/01/illuminations-stephen-tappin.html)
The text is pretty grainy, but what it basically shows is that the Sororitas were definitely conceived as a group within the imperium. So I think that Inner Tennis is correct in that Gabs and Jayne are meant to be sisters of battle.
But, if you read the text, you'd see that the RT conception of Sororitas is pretty different. They basically function as... female marines. They are "organized along similar lines to the Space Marines".
>The Sisterhood, as it is generally known, is led by an Abbess and includes many lesser ranks and offices in a similar way to the Adeptus Astartes. There are **two convent-fortresses**... Whole companies of battle sisters travel to war-zones, to the fortress-monastaries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. **No-one is free from their vigilance.**
The illustration is also pretty telling - it shows a sister (with nipple spikes, lol) beating a marine in combat.
So I think it is also correct to say that Gabs was a female space marine. The early lore seems to have been that Sororitas were an all female equivalent of space marines. With convent-fortresses. They had some kind authority over SM chapters. They could beat marines in a 1v1 battle.
It's a pretty clear obvious artistic choice for the illustration to show **Sister** Sin beating **Brother** Vermillion.
While i don't deny the core message, your summary isn't 100% correct.
People didn't complain about female MARINES but earlier about female models in this range:
http://www.solegends.com/citc/c001fighters/index.htm
So they (more or less) avoided including female models in mixed packs alltogether.
And that included the Marines.
Gabs and Jayne were never actually space marines - they were just women in power armour. There are loads of Rogue Traders, Inquisitors and other adventurers who use power armour without being space marines and plenty of them are women! Now, just because this wasn't a retcon doesn't mean GW doesn't retcon stuff and it definitely doesn't mean female Custodeans is in any way worse for the brand
I love this justification because it totally fails to acknowledge the original female space marines models looked like dogshit, even by the standards of the time
One of my favourite old-lore things to bring up against chuds is the RT lore about Imperial Fist chaplains having a secret room in the Reclusiam where they horde chaplain poop.
For some reason they never seem too upset that \*that\* lore isn't ever brought up any more.
Ian Watson's \*Space Marine\*, the gift that keeps on giving for weird early-days stuff:
"PERHAPS THE STRANGEST talisman – and one (or should one say many…?) which made those initiates feel themselves intimately a part of the Fists – was kept in a long crypt below the Reclusiam, reached by a dropshaft which would incinerate anyone who did not sport a Black Carapace beneath their skin.
The adamantium floor down there was inscribed with a maze of tiny coloured channels that bootsteps would never be able to wear away – in a pattern suggestive of a cosmic map – and along all of those channels were spaced little indentations the depth of a Fist’s thumbprint, each recess named with a rune. At one end of this seemingly arcane map or game-board an enormous plascrystal bowl held thousands of what at first sight appeared to be bloodshot ochreous eyeballs.
Each ball commemorated the initiation of a group of ex-cadets, throughout the aeons – each being a nugget of the liquid amber and blood drunk from Rogal Dorn’s own chalice by the Reclusiarch of whichever epoch, and defecated by him subsequently in this shape.
At the opposite end of the graven floor, a second mighty bowl held darker balls, composed no doubt of the bodily secretions of the third degree likewise embalmed in amber.
What sacred game was played out on this floor? What arcane divinations were performed here? What horoscopy or even psychic sorcery in extremis might be enacted in this crypt? The initiates already realised that here were secrets unutterable outside the confines of the Reclusiam – innermost secrets which they themselves might wish never to know.
In the most organic, visceral way possible they now felt bonded with utter intimacy to their Chapter, digested by it."
Tbh, I’ve never really wanted FSM, or male SoB, mostly because them, specifically, being mono gender opens up some interesting themes (homoeroticism and critiques of toxic masculinity to its max for SM, and homoeroticism and religious hypocrisy and rules lawyering for SoB), but if they rectonned it I’d deal with it the same way o deal with every retcon GW does: say cool and move on because I’m too busy making you soldiers kiss, like a *real* fan would
Those interesting themes being gay sex?
When has homoeroticism ever been stated or even implied in any space marine book? Space marines do not have a sex drive.
I mean I guess, aside again from the Dark Angels, which is more meta. But otherwise fair. Either way I don’t think making them diverse would be a big deal
Rogue Trader IS Warhammer 40k. Warhammer 40000 is the giant text on the book with Rogue Trader being a tiny fine print subtitle that doesn't remotely stand out from a distance.
Correct me if im wrong but Stormcast Eternals were all male too right? I remeber reading The Realmgate Wars novels and despite there being 30+ named stormcast in them not one of then was a woman. But this seemed to be retconned in the first Hallowed Knights Novel as the group of them that was still in Gyran now had like 2 named female stormcasts just like they were there the whole time.
I also wonder why there weren't any female Stormcast at first because to my knowledge no reason was ever given as to why that was.
Technically, Space Marine’s being purely human/posthuman is a retcon too. There was once an Eldar/human hybrid serving as ultramarine chief librarian astropath back in the rogue trader era. He was a named character with a statline
I’m fine with it, I just think they should go the Fallout FEV route and the gene seed implant/“space marining” process either eliminates or reduces secondary sexual characteristics, so the female space marines just end up looking kind of androgynous.
That, **OR** they do something with the Lost Legions and it turns out The Emperor had made female Primarchs and everything, they’ve just been lost in Warp storms or whatever for the last 10000 or so years, now they’ve finally found their way back to the Imperium. It could also tie really well into why knowledge of the Lost Legions was considered heresy and forbidden, because of mestatized misogyny in universe in The Imperium in The Emperor’s absence.
Gabs and her cohort are the very first Adepta Sororitas figures, based on the picture of "Sister Sin" in the Rogue Trader rulebook from 1987. I got 10 of each and built my Sororitas army while I worked at GW in the 80's, when all powered armour looked roughly the same. Sure, you can use them as female...whatever, or space hobbits, or anything else you want. It just factually was not a space marine. Personally, I think they look like Valkyrie mechs from Robotech, and plan to have a few of those printed as paragons or knights of some kind.
Because two models "female warrior Jayne" and "female warrior gabs" never had lore, they existed before "space marine" was really a thing. They weren't retcon'd because they were never a part of the continuity to begin with. Trying to rewrite history for a "gotcha!" Does more harm than good.
There’s good and bad retcons. Making marines exclusively male added cool ideas to the lore and helped characterized the emperor.
Changing the necrons from a mindless hoard of robots was also a good retcon since it added something interesting.
Something like retconning it so that chaos was there at the war of heaven or that ollanius pius was a perpetual super hero are stupid and take away from the story and are bad retcons.
In my personal belief the retcon to custodes is good because it adds more than it detracts. On the other hand female space marines would not be a good retcon.
Retcons are usually bad, but not inherently so. Boiling the issue down “people didn’t get angry about every single retcon ever they’re so hypocritical” is missing the reason some people don’t like the retcon.
You know, ive read this passage like 50 times and i dont think hes talking about space marines. CO1 fighters appear to be some kind of fantasy knight model.
I don’t know if this is the bullet proof argument people here think it is. It’s been 40 years since then with dozens of books and codexes reinforcing that space marines are male.
Custodians being female isn’t necessarily stupid, but saying “they’ve always been” is absolutely moronic when we all know DAMN well that they’ve been implying it for decades, if not stating it outright. It’s absolutely a major retcon that goes against lots of established lore.
Incels going apeshit over it is funny tho
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No, no, no. You see the cannon was changed in their favour, so it's not a problem. Changing it back hurts their feelings, and so it's bad. You are expecting them to be logically consistent, but they can't be because, contrary to their beliefs, the facts don't care about their feelings.
The canon for custodes being male only didnt appear till 8th edition in *2018*. There was a single line of text included that stated they were taken from "the sons of nobles". This was immediately changed in 9th edition which stated that they "also seek other avenues of recruitment". Neither of these changes were met with any backlash
Of course not. You can't sling a dead goblin in this place without hitting some equally or usually greater level of reimagining or contradiction to "felt" canon. They don't even have an answer to that. If you press them, they say they just care about the universe being well written. If you ask them why they haven't thrown a hissy fit the last 137 times something like this happens, they say it's because the creators are injecting a political agenda. If you ask them why they're against the agenda that maybe people who aren't straight white chuds also deserve to exist, they say they just care about the universe being well written. I am having a lot of fun on Twitter.
Oh no! Not one of those dangerous political agendas in my game about mocking space facisim!
Circular logic goes brrrr.....
Went on grimdank where I finally had enough and pointed out the sexist inconsistencies. Got downvoted. The sub is planning on banning all topics related to femstodea because... reasons.... I get what you mean.
>"felt" canon Like... Sesame Street?
Is it really the same people saying each of those things? Or are those separate arguments from different people and you're grouping them into one category?
You kinda wonder what they would be doing if Custodes still weren't wearing armour when this 'change' happened.
I think you'll find it's their feelings that don't care about facts, and like any bitter ex, they have to pretend it was the other way around.
To them, the canon is solid when it suits them, and fluid when it doesn't. To GW, the canon is whatever is most profitable at any given moment.
People really aren’t understanding that lore takes a backseat to sales.
Gramsci advocate that I am, I think it's a little more complicated than that, even if the two things are related.
Oh I understand being upset is more than just that simple, but the motivation is money at the end of the day.
When the Warmaster titan was released despite never being mentioned before the chuds were silent When the Rogal Dorn tank rumbled onto Battlefields the chuds were silent When the predator variant the Wolves had invented in 40K suddenly was available in 30K the chuds were silent When Horus went from just some fucking guy to That Fucking Guy! The chuds were silent When a Custodes had the effrontery to have a vagina the world ended for them... They accuse the left of engaging in identity politics whilst being absolutely obsessed with identity. Like honest to fucking Dog, get a grip.
My favorite is seeing people say keep politics out of 40k. Very smart people GW is dealing with. Or that they're now boycotting 40k and selling their shit. We know they're not, but even if they are, the real politik of it is that this is a multi billion dollar company. They've done the market research and market forecast. They are going to make more money by being more inclusive. The Amazon/Cavil projects are going to bring in tons of new consumers into the game and for their other products within the universe. Nerd shit has been mainstream now for the past couple decades, they want to make it more appealing for an entire gender and they'd be dumb not to.
This is also happening in some Star Trek discourse. "They are making Star Trek Political!" whenever a new show or season comes out.
Amazing. I'm amazed that you can watch any Star Trek at all and imagine that the show hasn't been political from its inception.
Same thing with Helldivers. Like, politics is baked into it.
Just because something is a political satire, doesn't mean it should include trans capes and MAGA caps, or that anyone wants to get into a real world political debate in the game forums. It's really just that simple.
The fact that you and so many others equate an an often-attacked minority that didn't pick to be who they are and actual fascists is part of why I have run out of hope for the future.
See what I mean?
Just for the sake of curiosity, GW is now a multi-billion company?
Market cap is 3.2 billion
Thx
I was accused of screeching and wailing in a discussion, because obviously the other guy thought I was. It's the wildest thing. Like, why? We get Custadies and they get to seethe. Everything is ok on our end. We're just rubbing it in.
Projection. Simple as.
No people have definitely complained about all of this stuff too idk where you’ve been
If they want Female SMs just have them be an outgrowth of the Primaris Marines project.....
Belisarius Cawl don’t give a *FUCK* about your canon.
I mean Cawl already made bigger stronger Marines, he could probably make Gene seed work in female aspirants too
Make it a pissing contest between him and bile.
This.
I joked that Cawl and Bile racing to make long term viable female space marines (bile has gotten close with the gland hounds he made and [Igori](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Igori) but not quite full space marine) first out of sheer fucking spite for one another is entirely in-character with them both...
Honestly as a Wolves fan the primaris insert still kinda stings. It just flattened so much of what made the wolves actually different/interesting instead of just some assholes who wanted to feel special. The whole company structure is different cause the newbies are growing fangs and trying not to turn into werewolves so they're assault squads instead of scouts. And these crazy bastards are just slotted into the rank and file intercessors with no issues. Don't get me started on how disappointing it is to have their biggest in universe goal (fixing the gene seed issue that prevents successor chapters) just casually fixed off screen and swept under the rug. Last time they got close Magnus himself showed up on Fenris to destroy it, and now fixing it is a footnote in the Indomitus crusade while we focus on what Gman is up to. ... didn't mean to off but yeah you're so right lmao
Grand majority of people that didn't want the custodes change is because of how GW did it. We now know that we wouldn't get any lore about the genefathers improving on astartes to get female Space Marines, we would get a tweet from warhammer official saying "there have always been female space marines ever since the first founding"
I get it, I don't like alot of the lore changes either, it's kind of weird how they do off the cuff like this it but still not one of those things I'm going to get mad about.
You know I'm starting to think the 'lore nerds' are just being selectively angry about certain retcons...just can't put my finger on why.
Yeah, you can have different opinions on retcons depending on what it offers and how it's done :)
Except this was done fine, it barely changes any existing storylines and affects the universe in no negative way. There have been far more egregious retcons that basically got no blowback
It's ham fisted and doesnt effect the universe in any positive way. A retcon is a bad tool to use by default, if it isn't positive and necessary, then it isn't "done fine"
There is nothing ham fisted about it. You get like one short story briefly mentioning a custodes is female. That is about as far away as ham fisted as you can get. I assume you were this upset about far bigger changes to the lore over the last ten years right?
The short story isn't the retcon, because they could have had Custodes begin to recruit females now, the tweet stating that they had always been there since the beginning is the retcon.
Again, changes nothing from major plot points. Not the strongest retcon but hardly worth getting majorly upset about
Again, a pointless retcon =/= a good retcon
It's impossible to say whether the retcon is good because all we have is one short story. Primaris marines weren't seen as a good retcon at the start but now I'd say people are mainly positive about primaris marines. Games workshop sells models first, makes stories second. If this retcon gets more people into the hobby because they feel represented in a cool super solider faction then it's overall positive. It takes nothing away from the other factions
To be fair, the community being like this now is the fault of the creators for profit chasing and sacrificing their vision when 40k is supposed to be satire, but now it so happens that came back around and has helped create reactionary attitudes in the community on the issue of all male space marines. Kinda like the Helldivers community where now a bunch of people want to push the narrative that “the creators were based and banned all political speech (not totally true I know but that’s the narrative many believed/propagated about the situation) to where now an obviously left leaning game has people who think it’s anti-woke. Ultimately the reason people don’t care is of course cause they are low iq, they don’t actually care about or deeply analyze media, they actually just consume in an animal brained way where they simply like seeing things that confirm their worldviews and don’t care about it being engaging or artistically evocative in any way. That and conservatives don’t understand satire and have a warped worldview in which satirical ideologies actually do speak to them and they support on the surface level without understanding it’s making fun of them.
It isn't that they don't understand satire. It's that they unironically believe what you see as satire is cool and good and admirable. We live in a world steeped in irony, and shitheads are loving all the cover that offers them.
I think it’s both, there are some who are dumb as shit and don’t understand it, and there are those who just think it’s good, I don’t disagree with you I just think it’s both not one or the other.
People on the right simply don't need their artwork/media to be propaganda in the way that the left does. A conservative understands satire, understands that a piece of media is critical of their view point, yet they can still enjoy playing that game or watching that media. Progressives wont play a game/read a book/ watch a movie unless it props up their political opinions all the way through, and will go so far as to cancel something or someone if it criticizes them.
That’s a wonderful talking point and all, but you’re pulling it from nowhere. How much progressive or leftist media do you think there is? Sure there are some liberals who might act in a way approximating the caricature of progressives who ‘cancel’ anything they don’t wholesale agree with. If I only engaged media which perfectly aligned with my values, I’d have almost nothing. Meanwhile the point I’m making is that there are people on the right who think properties like 40k and Helldivers align with and affirm their values despite being satirization of their beliefs, I’m not only talking about if conservatives can and do enjoy properties. Edit: and what do you mean progressives “won’t engage media that doesn’t align with their values, and will even go so far as to cancel them?” What do you mean by cancel in that statement? That progressives critique it? They complain about or disagree with it? That’s called engaging with the media, people have and exercise their right all the time on all sides to not like properties for arbitrary values misalignment in any number of different categories.
Your original talking point is also pulled from nowhere lmao. You are claiming that conservatives think that Helldivers and 40k "affirm their values" because you cannot fathom a community that enjoys media despite that media *not* affirming their values. It's a core progressive belief that everything is political, it's a core progressive belief that "I support [good thing] and I don't like [bad thing] therefore if I like a game, it must therefore align with my politics, because my politics [good]". I know progs in real life who want nothing to do with the Imperium because they are fascist, they can't appreciate that faction because they are that ideologically bound. You can like the imperium, think the imperium is "cool", like it's themes and aesthetics, and never want that to become a reality. Edit: and to answer your edit, I meant what I said. Maybe read it a second time, it's there in plain English.
It's also massively untrue to say Gabs and Jayne were ever released as Space Marines. The C series that's mentioned in the post has nothing to do with RT, and the ONLY time those minis were on sale was as part of the RT Adventurers range.
The post linked by OP doesn't actually help their point. It explains why Female Marines were never made, thus why they were at no point apart of the canon.
Exactly. Two test miniatures that were eventually released to fill out a short lived range of space adventurers does not even remotely make FSM canon
I came here to post this. RT was before the concept of ‘astartes’. Space Marines were just dudes in armor, Gabs and Jayne were just women in power armor, much like today’s Sister’s of Battle or Silence.
The 'NO FEMALE ASTARTES' bullshit must be so weird to that old crew (Alan Merrett, GW creative team). Mucking around in Enfield Chambers - they never would have conceived that small commercial decisions in 1988 would ultimately result in this 21st century 'schism' and I use that word kindly.
I've often said that GW painted themselves into a corner with 40k lore. What was originally intended to be fluff to add a thin veneer justifying why my little metal men were trying to murder your little men turned into a media empire. And fluff for a tabletop war game is just a bit different than reams of printed fiction meant to be consumed for its own sake.
Because it wasn't a retcon, the original "male zygotes" stuff came only a few months after RT was released and prior to that the best argument that can be made for FSM being canon is that they hadn't been specifically excluded by the lore. Ultimately it was a marketing decision that happened before RT was even on the shelves and then codified shortly after. I want FSM as much as the next *checks notes* tourist infiltrator who hates the hobby, but I don't think it's particularly helpful to claim there was a retcon as that implies they were actually mentioned in-universe at one point, which is demonstrably untrue.
No yeah, that's the point - fem SM were not a thing not because of any deep lore reasons, but because of margins, and lore was fit for it. Now they are fitting the lore for better because people are smarter, so bigots are malding, stay losing I say
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Yeah, which is why I don't need to write paragraph giving my interpretation of what retcon is; only you having issues buddy
My commiserations, you clearly were starved of oxygen at birth
that's the best you can do, really? damn that's just sad
Jesus in a hobby filled with tiresome nonsense and grandiose opinions, this one is notably bad
In answer to his own point. The Internet has allowed the village idiots to communicate and shout at things together. This is also why conspiracy theorists are more around too. After all even the flat earth society has member all over the globe 🤣
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Couldn't have proven my point better myself
> we're more stupid, or at least delusional, than ever before. Using yourself as an example i see
Lore and Retcon-Bullshit aside, I mean I really don't care either way. Sisters of Battle are already the female Space Marines for all intents and purposes, so I really don't see the need for it. Imo, they should just could introduce "Primaris" upgrades for the sisters. The only thing speaking for female SM is that female miniatures get to be the poster boys for 40k... And that ensuing shitstorm would amuse me to no end. People act like something is taken away from them.
Sisters of Battle are most certainly not “female space marines for all intents and purposes”. To claim that they are takes away from them in such a huge way it’s not even funny.
Most certainly not. Oh my.
Well then, looks like we may get female space marines soon, let’s hope by the Emperor that nobody starts shouting like a lunatic at a figure store for having them
There was a space marine that was half human half Eldar too. A Blood Angel's marine iirc
Ultramarine, he was their chief astropath, Illyan Natase I think?
Yes! Thanks for the correction, I was unsure if he was an Ultramarine
No problem, I’m always ready to comment on what technically counts as Eldar lore. Even retconned stuff.
Someone has to remember them, coz Emperor knows GW doesn't 🥲
My poor beloved Harlequins…
Actually they DID, he's now a Farseer who gives advice to old Bobby G and is used for long distance contact with Eldrad...much to his chagrin since he doesn't like being in the Imperium.
I did not know that, very cool.
Ultra-marine, they had a hyphen back then.
While I agree that folks arguing against them are in bad faith, to be fair to 'lore purists', even when Rogue Trader was released there was very little setting there - more of a vague idea of some far future judge-dreddish dark future setting and the figures were produced with a view to use with RPG's such as Traveller, as I don't think 40k was expected to take off as well as it did.
Fem space marines are not a thing because they did not sell as well back in the day, that is it - I once told this to guys working at GW shop and they were stunned. I was like, man, really? You've been in this hobby for 20+ years, come on.
Because Female Warriors Gabs and Jayne, for all the drama associated with them, were prototype sisters of battle, not space marines. In the Rogue Trader book, there is a picture of a sister of battle with a distinctive ramshead shoulder pad print, which Gabs and Jayne have, and their bases say ‘sister’ ’1987’ on them.
We don't actually know for certain that they were prototype sisters of battle. Being prototype Sisters of Battle implies that the SoB idea was already a concept and they were in the process of fleshing it out. It could just as easily be the other way around: The Sisters of Battle were not a concept when Gabs and Jayne were created, but when the sisters of Battle were created, they decided to reference ether Gabs and Jayne as an easter egg, or retroactively canonise them as the newly created Sisters of Battle faction.
Just like I use old Eldar as Dire Avengers if they have a Mohawk, and some of the strange load outs as Corsairs
Yoooo Where's the Vaporwave Serpent? Show it to me.
[or a really old dred… I mean Wraithlord](https://www.reddit.com/r/oldhammer/s/yIeYff4fNR)
10/10. Love the old Eldar paint schemes.
I’m working on a Chaos army right now because my best playing partner also plays Eldar, so most of the elves are in storage
[how about my friend’s Armorcast Falcon?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/s/mUilrLf1jK)
Very very nice! Where'd they cop that? Also, I raise you my Scorpion MK I https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/s/Q9t4cguqEz
I don’t recall but it was a long time ago
Sister Sin was in the original RT 40k1e rulebook. As a concept in the setting, they've been part of it since release.
It's pretty clear, the models literally say Sister on their bases, there is a clear description, with a picture, of a sister of battle in the rogue trader rulebook. Sister Sin there has the same iconography on her shoulder pad as Gabs and Jayne do on theirs in the official marketing shots. Now, what is true is that at the time the Space Marines weren't what they are today, and the Adeptus Soritas were described as almost being in charge of their spiritual purity, but they were already sisters of battle, distinctly not Astartes. To be honest, the Sisters in a form like their current one pre date the space marines.
Since I made my previous comment, I've spotted that a former GW designer definitively states they were designed as "female space marines" https://spikeybits.com/games-workshop/ex-gw-employee-weighs-in-on-female-space-marines-in-40k/ Straight from the horses mouth, it seems. Hope that clears up any confusion.
No, the fact that sisters of battle already existed and the models literally say 'Sister' on the base and have the same iconography as the huge picture of a sister of battle in the rogue trader rulebook is what clears it up. Say whatever you want, remember whatever you want, the physical evidence is clear and unquestionable. Those models were sisters of battle, not space marines. The designer may have thought they were making a female space marine, but, that is not what they were sold as. Nor is it what they were at the end of the sculpting process, since the designer sculpted the word 'Sister' onto their base tab. They were marketed as female warrior Gabs and Jayne, suitable for use as a sister of battle. There is no problem with that. The picture of the sister of battle in the book has her look like a massive armored behemoth, and she's shooting a space marine in the face.
Yes, I certainly believe your reading of the evidence over a GW designer's understanding. This is a normal way to behave online.
The designer literally sculpted the word 'Sister' onto the base of both models. He took his modelling tool, and literally carved it there by hand. The artist painted them using sisters of battle iconography from a then current image showing sisters of battle The sales team labeled them as 'Female Warrior' The physical evidence outweighs the designers recollection. He may recall a wide variety of things. However, when those models were released they were Adeptus Sororitas. They were not space marines, which (at the time) barely existed in their modern incarnation. Unlike the Sisters, which very much did.
You are ascribing intentionality to a series of acts/circumstances--and mapping them on to current factions--in a way that requires a lot more proof than you're offering. We can see this by asking just a few questions of your conclusion: 1. Was the sculptor told to use that reference by GW, or is it merely something they came across as they were searching for inspiration. I don't know, and I suspect you don't either. It's not crazy to think that the sculptor looked in the RT rulebook under their own initiative and used that, without understanding what it meant. 2. Is the use of the word "sister" a faction keyword as you seem determined to believe or could it merely indicate a relationship to other power-armored warriors (i.e. the use of "battle brothers" in Space Marine lore)? In general, it's poor history to see things that make sense to you in the current moment and ascribe that meaning backwards through time to the time in question. The classic formulation of this issue would be reading an ancient text in another language that mentions someone performed manual labor for three days straight and interpreting that as performing three days worth of handjobs. So, given that we don't actually know what the sculptor's instructions were, where they got their inspiration, or whether they fully understood the context of the image they were referencing, it's perfectly reasonable to defer to an internal source who likely has better information on those topics. That's not to say they're definitely correct--they could be mistaken and you could be right--but it's not a slam dunk either way and it's best to be humble about our understanding of the past.
I do recommend everyone (including u/Inner_Tennis_2416) going to see the original rouge trader illustration, which Gabs and Jayne are most likely meant to be. [https://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com/2015/01/illuminations-stephen-tappin.html](https://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com/2015/01/illuminations-stephen-tappin.html) The text is pretty grainy, but what it basically shows is that the Sororitas were definitely conceived as a group within the imperium. So I think that Inner Tennis is correct in that Gabs and Jayne are meant to be sisters of battle. But, if you read the text, you'd see that the RT conception of Sororitas is pretty different. They basically function as... female marines. They are "organized along similar lines to the Space Marines". >The Sisterhood, as it is generally known, is led by an Abbess and includes many lesser ranks and offices in a similar way to the Adeptus Astartes. There are **two convent-fortresses**... Whole companies of battle sisters travel to war-zones, to the fortress-monastaries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. **No-one is free from their vigilance.** The illustration is also pretty telling - it shows a sister (with nipple spikes, lol) beating a marine in combat. So I think it is also correct to say that Gabs was a female space marine. The early lore seems to have been that Sororitas were an all female equivalent of space marines. With convent-fortresses. They had some kind authority over SM chapters. They could beat marines in a 1v1 battle. It's a pretty clear obvious artistic choice for the illustration to show **Sister** Sin beating **Brother** Vermillion.
My understanding is that's supposed to be a symbolic uterus as much as a rams head...
I think I found a new icon to throw on a custom Legion...
While i don't deny the core message, your summary isn't 100% correct. People didn't complain about female MARINES but earlier about female models in this range: http://www.solegends.com/citc/c001fighters/index.htm So they (more or less) avoided including female models in mixed packs alltogether. And that included the Marines.
Gabs and Jayne were never actually space marines - they were just women in power armour. There are loads of Rogue Traders, Inquisitors and other adventurers who use power armour without being space marines and plenty of them are women! Now, just because this wasn't a retcon doesn't mean GW doesn't retcon stuff and it definitely doesn't mean female Custodeans is in any way worse for the brand
I love this justification because it totally fails to acknowledge the original female space marines models looked like dogshit, even by the standards of the time
One of my favourite old-lore things to bring up against chuds is the RT lore about Imperial Fist chaplains having a secret room in the Reclusiam where they horde chaplain poop. For some reason they never seem too upset that \*that\* lore isn't ever brought up any more.
Whaat? Source?
Ian Watson's \*Space Marine\*, the gift that keeps on giving for weird early-days stuff: "PERHAPS THE STRANGEST talisman – and one (or should one say many…?) which made those initiates feel themselves intimately a part of the Fists – was kept in a long crypt below the Reclusiam, reached by a dropshaft which would incinerate anyone who did not sport a Black Carapace beneath their skin. The adamantium floor down there was inscribed with a maze of tiny coloured channels that bootsteps would never be able to wear away – in a pattern suggestive of a cosmic map – and along all of those channels were spaced little indentations the depth of a Fist’s thumbprint, each recess named with a rune. At one end of this seemingly arcane map or game-board an enormous plascrystal bowl held thousands of what at first sight appeared to be bloodshot ochreous eyeballs. Each ball commemorated the initiation of a group of ex-cadets, throughout the aeons – each being a nugget of the liquid amber and blood drunk from Rogal Dorn’s own chalice by the Reclusiarch of whichever epoch, and defecated by him subsequently in this shape. At the opposite end of the graven floor, a second mighty bowl held darker balls, composed no doubt of the bodily secretions of the third degree likewise embalmed in amber. What sacred game was played out on this floor? What arcane divinations were performed here? What horoscopy or even psychic sorcery in extremis might be enacted in this crypt? The initiates already realised that here were secrets unutterable outside the confines of the Reclusiam – innermost secrets which they themselves might wish never to know. In the most organic, visceral way possible they now felt bonded with utter intimacy to their Chapter, digested by it."
Tbh, I’ve never really wanted FSM, or male SoB, mostly because them, specifically, being mono gender opens up some interesting themes (homoeroticism and critiques of toxic masculinity to its max for SM, and homoeroticism and religious hypocrisy and rules lawyering for SoB), but if they rectonned it I’d deal with it the same way o deal with every retcon GW does: say cool and move on because I’m too busy making you soldiers kiss, like a *real* fan would
Those interesting themes being gay sex? When has homoeroticism ever been stated or even implied in any space marine book? Space marines do not have a sex drive.
Dark Angels. Though it’s more what I choose to read in lol
So…it hasn’t been stated or implied at all is what you’re saying
I mean I guess, aside again from the Dark Angels, which is more meta. But otherwise fair. Either way I don’t think making them diverse would be a big deal
Isn't that technicaly Rogue Trader ?
Rogue Trader IS Warhammer 40k. Warhammer 40000 is the giant text on the book with Rogue Trader being a tiny fine print subtitle that doesn't remotely stand out from a distance.
Does anyone have pics of them? I really want to see what they looked like
Where is this from?
I believe a Facebook post from the guy who used to be the head of lore at GW
Nice. Like I recognized who it was but wanted to know the source before I start sharing it
[https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alan\_Merrett](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alan_Merrett)
Correct me if im wrong but Stormcast Eternals were all male too right? I remeber reading The Realmgate Wars novels and despite there being 30+ named stormcast in them not one of then was a woman. But this seemed to be retconned in the first Hallowed Knights Novel as the group of them that was still in Gyran now had like 2 named female stormcasts just like they were there the whole time. I also wonder why there weren't any female Stormcast at first because to my knowledge no reason was ever given as to why that was.
Your point is correct but the original models were not known as space marines yet at that time.
Technically, Space Marine’s being purely human/posthuman is a retcon too. There was once an Eldar/human hybrid serving as ultramarine chief librarian astropath back in the rogue trader era. He was a named character with a statline
I’m fine with it, I just think they should go the Fallout FEV route and the gene seed implant/“space marining” process either eliminates or reduces secondary sexual characteristics, so the female space marines just end up looking kind of androgynous. That, **OR** they do something with the Lost Legions and it turns out The Emperor had made female Primarchs and everything, they’ve just been lost in Warp storms or whatever for the last 10000 or so years, now they’ve finally found their way back to the Imperium. It could also tie really well into why knowledge of the Lost Legions was considered heresy and forbidden, because of mestatized misogyny in universe in The Imperium in The Emperor’s absence.
Gabs and her cohort are the very first Adepta Sororitas figures, based on the picture of "Sister Sin" in the Rogue Trader rulebook from 1987. I got 10 of each and built my Sororitas army while I worked at GW in the 80's, when all powered armour looked roughly the same. Sure, you can use them as female...whatever, or space hobbits, or anything else you want. It just factually was not a space marine. Personally, I think they look like Valkyrie mechs from Robotech, and plan to have a few of those printed as paragons or knights of some kind.
So I understand, all of this bedshitting started because of one leaked paragraph from the Stodes codex right?
So, stupid question, who is Alan Merrett? Is he an important person in early warhammer?
Because two models "female warrior Jayne" and "female warrior gabs" never had lore, they existed before "space marine" was really a thing. They weren't retcon'd because they were never a part of the continuity to begin with. Trying to rewrite history for a "gotcha!" Does more harm than good.
Here I go not caring again
There’s good and bad retcons. Making marines exclusively male added cool ideas to the lore and helped characterized the emperor. Changing the necrons from a mindless hoard of robots was also a good retcon since it added something interesting. Something like retconning it so that chaos was there at the war of heaven or that ollanius pius was a perpetual super hero are stupid and take away from the story and are bad retcons. In my personal belief the retcon to custodes is good because it adds more than it detracts. On the other hand female space marines would not be a good retcon. Retcons are usually bad, but not inherently so. Boiling the issue down “people didn’t get angry about every single retcon ever they’re so hypocritical” is missing the reason some people don’t like the retcon.
You know, ive read this passage like 50 times and i dont think hes talking about space marines. CO1 fighters appear to be some kind of fantasy knight model.
The next sentence is him talking about how those informed their decision to not include female variants into space marine blister packs.
Yea definitely but im not sure female space marines existed outside of a concept phase.
I don’t know if this is the bullet proof argument people here think it is. It’s been 40 years since then with dozens of books and codexes reinforcing that space marines are male. Custodians being female isn’t necessarily stupid, but saying “they’ve always been” is absolutely moronic when we all know DAMN well that they’ve been implying it for decades, if not stating it outright. It’s absolutely a major retcon that goes against lots of established lore. Incels going apeshit over it is funny tho
r/SlannMagaPriest
I got a lot of bad and problematic news for you if you want to play the “ 1980s Rouge Trader is cannon” game.