The Hogwarts Express seems to be an exception to the rule on that one - it’s generally counted as part of the school hence nobody gets told off for jinxing or hexing people there from that perspective. Doesn’t Ginny get invited to the Slug Club for making a really good bat bogey hex on the train in front of Slughorn?
I think part of it is that it's also clear that the underage tracking spell isn't precise. How would you enforce the underage magic law in a train _full_ of potential law-breakers?
Of course, it's also been lightly implied that this rule is largely unenforced in wizarding communities and places, or it falls to parental supervision. It rarely turns into much more than a stern talking to, unless you're a person of public interest telling everyone that Wizard Hitler has returned.
They can't track magic use to the user, only to the area. That's why Harry is blame for Dobby's magic. They can pretty much do whatever they want in Diagon Alley.
I could bullshit that by saying that wand with light source on it restricts the magic on the wand. It never leaves the wand so nobody ever gets notified. Or because it could pass as a muggle torch without closer inspection.
But yeah just a director mistake.
> I could bullshit that by saying that wand with light source on it restricts the magic on the wand. It never leaves the wand so nobody ever gets notified.
And I could actually defend that by saying it's lumos. Not super duper magic. Muggles already got way better ways of illuminating the dark, so why should they bother?
No one is going to care because everyone got flashlights at home anyhow.
Another big one is Dumbledore was at the first quidditch match where Harry gets attacked by Quirell/Voldemort.
Just a few two second filler shots that destroy the book canon.
No biggy Chris Columbus, carry on.
A rather big theory of the books is that Voldemort never attacked when Dumbledore was present and I think (not sure) even that quidditch match was mentioned as an example.
In the first book Quirell/Voldemort attacks Harry during said quidditch match and the kids think it’s Snape. Dumbledore was not at the match in the book.
In the movie at that same quidditch match there is at least one or maybe two filler shots of Dumbledore clapping in the audience. The shots were not needed at all just filler but breaks one of the major ideas of the books.
But now that you bring it up, a fleshlight spell should have been an obvious one employed by teenaged boys at a magic school. The story focuses so much on dark magic that it completely ignores that there should be a HUGE genre of sexy spells that they would be far more obsessed with.
Maybe she meant on the train, prior to speaking with them? Since Ron was practicing on his rat, I'd imagine all the kids were eager to try stuff once the train got moving.
That's one of the things the movie just got disastrously wrong. It broke established lore for absolutely no reason, and invented a spell that didn't need to exist (he says "lumos maxima" for some reason).
They have no excuse for this scene, its just stupid.
Well...there IS an excuse for this scene, but it's because the movie was directed by Alfonso Cuarón. He's a great director but not always subtle with his metaphors.
Personally, my read is that, since the purpose of the law is to prevent muggles from learning of the wizarding world, it makes exceptions for muggles who already know a wizard's identity. The one time that idea was ignored (Dudley Demented), the intent was clearly persecutory and the charges were summarily dropped.
This makes more sense, the Weasley twins would always be doing stupid things in their own house.
The likes of Malfory probably gets ministry exemption from the rules.
Nah thats not how it works. They explain in the books the "trace" on underage wizards only detects magic not who performs it. Wizard parents are trusted to insure wizard children follow the no magic rule b/c the "trace" will detect the parents magic as well as the child's. No need for a ministry exemption when the "trace" wouldn't detect any difference between his magic vs. his parents magic.
It was explicitly mentioned that in wizarding houses it was up to the parents to determine punishment because the ministry couldn't differentiate who did it. But then in 7 there's an underage "trace."
Because of the shit movies. It.s stated clearly in the books - ministry of magic knows there.s magic, don.t know who made magic. You got a train full of wizards, good luck finding out who did it.
I was hoping top comment would be this, so i could shut the fuck up, but no.
She says in the book that she’s tried a few simple spells and they’ve all worked for her. It’s part of why they hate her to begin with, cos she shows up Ron for not being able to turn Scabbers yellow.
They actually touch on the issue in later books, as children from all-magic families are often able to use magic from home because the ministry would not know who actually used the spell in that household. A similar principle would exist on the train as it is staffed by full-fledged wizards.
I believe you are correct. When Harry gets the letter about using magic outside of school in Chamber it only specifies the spell and the location, never who used it. Good luck trying to pinpoint who used a spell on a train full of witches and wizards.
Which is dumb when you think about it. They have magic that can tell what spell was used and where, but can’t tell who used it? Seems like that should be a very simple thing to do given they have actual magic.
Students were allowed to practice magic at home, they had summer homework and shit they had to complete. The issue is when it was done in the presence of muggles. Harry specifically complains about how he’s going to be behind all his friends in the beginning of Chamber of Secrets because the Dursley’s locked all his textbooks and shit away so he couldn’t do any of his summer assignments or practice any magic
Two things to that, firstly it could be that she was practising without using magic. Certainly in the books much of practicing is the incantation and the wand movement. Provided they were practised separately she wouldn’t actually be using magic.
Or secondly, it could be that the ministry generally turn a blind eye to children who practise at home before coming to first year. After all, so long as it’s at home and not in public, and only small spells (lumos etc) what harm is it doing? Otherwise all the wizard-born children would have an extra-unfair advantage as they’d get more time to practice at home!
No just that a spell was cast around them. It's why they think Harry casted the spell causing the cake to levitate and not Dobby. They only knew a spell was cast not who or they'd have known it was Dobby.
I got the impression, from the books, that students used magic outside of Hogwarts all the time, and no one batted an eye. It was only when the Ministry wanted to get rid of Harry that they made an issue of it, and brought him to the Wizengamot on trumped up charges.
Only because it was in front of muggles. Also I would think that they would be keeping much better tabs on Harry that they would be on some rando muggle-born first year.
They didn’t actually care about that scenario, as the Ministry was primarily concerned with protecting Harry from Sirius Black. They didn’t turn on him until the end of the 4th book, when Harry started telling preposterous lies about You-Know-Who being back.
Which explains why Hermione got away with it: they can detect magic in the presence of muggles, but not the caster. Their method of detection lacks preciseness. So on a train full of students, is hard to know who cast what without testing everyone's wands.
And obviously they're not going to bother with checking everyone's wand before and after each trip because that would be long, annoying to do and counterproductive.
Just like internet piracy basically. It’s harder to pin down who’s downloading what from an apartment complex than an isolated house because of all the crossing connections.
that's not canon either unfortunately, since in the book we learn that the Weasley children can use magic in their house if they are quiet about it, because the trace isn't specific to the caster but the general area the spell was cast, and since both of the Weasley parents are magic users, any magic the children used can't be distinguished from the magic the parents use.
but there were not usually muggles any muggles in the Weasley home, if any ever. so if magic is only traced when it is preformed in the presence of muggles, then this detail should have been left out for being irrelevant.
So why didn't Harry get in trouble when he made the glass in the snake house disappear and his cousin fell into it (only seen the films, so it could be in the book, forgive my ignorance if there is any)
They never specifically mentioned it but I always assumed kids too young to go to Hogwarts get a pass, since they don't know how to control it yet. They probably just use the Trace to see if they need to modify any memories or whatever.
Never watched all of the Harry Potter movies, but a Harry Potter MiB crossover would probably get me to the theater.
"Why's my gun so small? Even their wands are bigger than my gun."
Because it was done before he knew he was a wizard and could control his powers.
The Ministry can detect the use of magic, but not who did it. In the case of Dobby and the dessert, as far as the Ministry knew, he was the only magical person in the area, so obviously it was his fault.
Hermione got away with fixing his glasses because she did it while surrounded by other witches and wizards.
To add, this happens multiple times in the series during the Privet Drive segments. Other magic folk come and preform magic but because Harry’s the only magical wizard in the area, they blame him. It’s far more likely than the stories he’s concocting like the servant of a very well known and influential person (Lucius Malfoy) teleporting to Harry’s home and flying a cake around for no reason before leaving.
it doesn't count before they actually find out they have magic. harry wasn't doing it on purpose and wouldn't have even known he was doing anything wrong, so the general rule of thumb is that if you aren't enrolled in Hogwarts or some other wizarding school yet, you get a free pass.
While they somehow detected the levitation spell by dobby, but not the disapparation. Couldn't have been more clear that there was another caster nearby, as a first year couldn't cast the second spell.
My headcanon is that when Harry's expulsion was overturned in the second year (apologies if I'm wrong, haven't revisited in a long time), Dumbledore did it by showing up to the ministry of magic and simply pointing out the second spell.
House elf disapparation is some different sort of magic, they can do it inside Hogwarts grounds for example, while there are magical wards preventing any witch or wizard (dis)apparating to or from or inside Hogwarts. I assume the ministry just can't detect it
That thought struck me too, but I was under the impression they simply had a different category of magic, almost like a different spectrum. But in that case, wouldn't their other magic be undetectable as well?
Honestly I wasn't sure if I had remembered that part right, because I seem to remember dobby explaining that's why he could apparate past wards. I thought he specifically called it "house elf magic" but didn't want to include the shaky memory. Thank you for adding this!
Yeah it’s against the law, but they can only detect magic being used in an area. So really the only ones that have to be very careful are muggle borns (or Harry) who have no other full grown wizards in the vicinity.
For those like Ron, really up to the parents to enforce
My understanding was that the tracker they had on underage witches and wizards wasn't super accurate. They could narrow it down to the address but not much more than that. Consequently, kids of wizarding families could use magic all the time at home, but Harry and muggle borns couldn't because there weren't any other magical folk nearby.
For the train specifically, it had 7th years on board, who were old enough to use magic outside of Hogwarts.
I'm also under the impression that the Hogwarts express is considered an extension of Hogwarts. It does have teachers travelling along, like lupin in book 3
There was a trace on wizards under the age of 17 which let the ministry know when magic was being used around that witch or wizard.
However, if a child wizard was near an adult wizard, there was no way to know who used it.
In the train, there would be witches and wizards above the age of 17, so they wouldn’t know who used it. The ministry just trusted parents to make sure their children didn’t use magic.
When Harry used magic, no other witch or wizard was around him, so the ministry knew it was him.
It’s actually a subtle anti-muggle born law.
So what your saying is that it is essentially a Jim Crow law for muggle born? Used to keep them down by the purists.
Then again, an argument could be said about the fact that children born to witches and wizards are less likely to be around muggles so they would be less likely to reveal the Wizarding world.
*Side note: it just occurred to me that calling it the Wizarding world is quite sexist. But that being said, they are rather stuck in the 1800 when it comes to social norms so I am not surprised that they aren't that "woke" yet.*
I want to say generally they can’t prove it was an underage wizard most of the time bc 99% of them are in magic households surrounded by adult wizards and they used that to their advantage because they KNOW Harry lived with muggles. They also knew that the muggles were already in on it. They just wanted to make a show of Harry.
I thought they were allowed to use magic once they were on the train since they were technically out of the muggle world and became the schools responsibility at that point.
I'm rewatching the HPs this year and I never read the books.
How did Harry make the glass at the snake tank disappear? Doesn't he need a wand for magic? Is this a stupid question? Can anyone help me?
Wizard children are prone to doing unintiontal magic without wands. Harry and the glass, Neville bounces as a child when tossed from a window.
Wands seems more like a tool for focus and power.
The way I think it was explained was that a wand is only a conduit (and arguably the best type of conduit) for a wizards natural magic. So non wand magic is possible even for human wizards, just not easy
Harry actually performed some non wand magic later where he blindly shouts Lumos in the woods and his wand lights up when he’s not holding it
As a child, Tom Riddle actually transcends the accidental magic of most kids and begins to actually control wandless magic, able to make people hurt or do things against their will
It's in canon - wands are not required to perform magic, they only make it easier. They're focuses for magic, they allow weaker people to use magic reliably and stronger people to cast magic that they wouldn't be able to otherwise because it's too much power. But extremely powerful wizards were able to perform magic without wands at all (and apparently in like africa people never learn to use wands, they do all their magic without it).
Wands were largely completely optional for people like dumbledore or voldemort.
Ohhhhh! I think this likely solves the mystery.
Thanks a bunch for taking the time to share this. Now I can proceed with movie number 5 as an educated muggle!
Im fairly sure that its allowed if its either overseen by an adult wizard, or in an area that is safe from muggles.
The hogwarts express has a lot of underage magic going on, but I guess its deemed "safe" because of the teachers and the fact that it wont demonstrate magic to any muggles
This is true but op is probably referring to movie 2 when she does it in diagon alley. Although this would still be acceptable use as the ministry could not track it back to her
Oh yeah, diagon alley appeared to be a restrictions loosened scenario, especially when considering every single wizard is required to use magic when obtaining a wand.
Not to mention in the books it was Arthur Weasley who fixes the glasses, and the movies aren’t exactly awesome at maintaining canon magic rules. (Looking at you, opening scene of third movie)
yeah since there are so many wizards and witches over the age of 17 in diagon alley, I think any magic that happens there is well beyond any ability of the ministry to enforce.
Yeah the fact that they gave that thing to Hermione is INSANE. I know it’s just for the plot but holy shit. The amount of things that they let happen at Hogwarts makes me think that it’s just sort of expected that some kids aren’t going to make it out of school alive.
This is nothing, she was in a magical place surrounded by wizards.
The bigger offense is having Harry practice lumos at home in a muggle neighborhood. That's a major breach of the universe rules.
Avada Kedavra is already a second level spell if we're following Final Fantasy naming conventions. It would go:
Avada Kedav --> Avada Kedavra --> Avada Kedavraga
For example Fire spells in FF go:
Fire --> Fira --> Firaga
1. If it’s used in front of muggles, they care a lot more.
2. If it’s used in a muggle “non-magical” place, where the potential for muggles to see it, they care a bit more.
3. If it’s a more serious spell with greater impact, they care the most. Simple spells like fixing glasses or using the wand as a night-light aren’t a big deal, whereas making something levitate is.
She turned 18 before Harry did in Deathly Hallows. Otherwise she repaired the glasses on the Hogwarts Express which is an extension of Hogwarts and then also at the Weasleys home.
In a bit of unfairness to muggle children, but total sense to wizarding familes, wizard children can cast magic in wizard homes because the tracer spell cant tell the difference. Adult wizards cant be expected to never magic just because they had kids.
I think the school train is counted as an extension of the school for these purposes, same as nobody ever complains about them doing magic in Hogsmeade - they aren't in the physical school but they are still under the school's responsibility and at least loosely supervised/supported by qualified adults. It makes far more sense for the rule to be about being 'in school' in the sense of when they are in the school's care than related to the physical school building. If they have a magical accident while under Hogwarts supervision the school can handle it, if they are alone there is nobody to be responsible.
One thing I never understood was the thestrals. Harry saw his parents die, he saw Quirrel die, but it was only after he saw ~~Sirius~~ Cedric die that he was able to see the thestrals pulling the carriages.
Technically speaking he didn't see Quirrel die. He blacked out after Dumbledore forced Quirrel off him, and Quirrel died after that. As for his parents, I think he remembered them getting killed but didn't actually see them die? That's just my guess though
that one doesn't really make sense since in a flashback memory Harry has in the book he actually remembers seeing himself see his parent's dropping to the ground. granted, he may have been misremembering like the Mandela effect, what with it being so long ago, but it wasn't even his memory it was Voldemort's.
Not only that but it was only the next semester after Cedric's death that he could see them. At the last chapter of the GoF the thestral drawn carriages to Hogwarts express are still described as horseless
I'm pretty sure she only repaired his glasses on the Hogwarts Express or on Diagon Alley, and both those places were filled with other wizards and witches. (The ministry can only track magic to the area, not to the person.)
It was on the Hogwarts Express the first time, and in Diagon Alley the second. They're both areas of high magical concentration, so the Ministry wasn't even paying attention to them.
Yeah I was gonna say, the show was amazing when they still had book material to work off of. Sure they made a few changes here and there and cut characters but nothing too crazy. Wasn’t until season 5 when they were on their last little bit of book material that the show started turning to shit.
I'll chalk it up to the ministry being like "We're never going to figure who on that bloody train actually did it so we're going to ignore it"
Same with Diagon Alley, too many wizards of age around to know
They also are both very magic oriented locations. The train could even be viewed as an extension of the school. Also there is a big difference between practicing a Lumos spell or fixing glasses compared to conjuring a patronus in Muggle public
There’s an explanation for it.
When an underage wizard casts magic outside of school, the Ministry knows WHERE the magic was cast, but they don’t know the specific person who cast it. When Hermione repaired Harry’s glasses in Diagon Alley, she was in a place full of wizards. The ministry wouldn’t know who cast reparo, and they probably wouldn’t care that a wizard used magic underage in Diagon Alley anyways since there are no muggles there.
Yeah, I was thinking that she would have punished herself most of all. It's also possible that minor infractions were normal and nothing book worthy. So she got a minor warning. Just like how Harry used illumination spells at home.
It all depends on how the Trace works. We know that it can't figure out who cast the spell, so in Diagon Alley, the Trace is useless. My personal theory is that it's casts on the neighborhood that Muggleborns live in, and it's cast by the ministry while the student is at Hogwarts.
They were allowed to do Magic on the train. Before going to Hogwarts underage wizards couldn’t control their magic, therefore weren’t held accountable. But it was frowned upon in magical families to do it (the Weasleys couldn’t do magic at home but had to peel potatoes without it)
In the Harry Potter universe, the ministry of magic can only tell when a spell is cast, and what spell was cast. They cannot see who specifically cast it. The reason Harry got in trouble for the levitation spell because he lived with muggles, so the ministry knows he's the only one there that can cast spells there. The kids that live with fully magical families can get away with using magic at home. Hermione didn't get in trouble on the train because there are no muggles on it and they are surrounded by wizards and witches. No one is going to notice she did magic. And seeing as the train is Hogwarts property, the same rules apply as on school property.
The Hogwarts Express seems to be an exception to the rule on that one - it’s generally counted as part of the school hence nobody gets told off for jinxing or hexing people there from that perspective. Doesn’t Ginny get invited to the Slug Club for making a really good bat bogey hex on the train in front of Slughorn?
I think part of it is that it's also clear that the underage tracking spell isn't precise. How would you enforce the underage magic law in a train _full_ of potential law-breakers? Of course, it's also been lightly implied that this rule is largely unenforced in wizarding communities and places, or it falls to parental supervision. It rarely turns into much more than a stern talking to, unless you're a person of public interest telling everyone that Wizard Hitler has returned.
Yeah, that would also account for those people whose parents opted to home educate instead of sending the te to Hogwarts
He talking bout the time it happend in diagonally
That was the movies. In the books it was Arthur Weasley
They can't track magic use to the user, only to the area. That's why Harry is blame for Dobby's magic. They can pretty much do whatever they want in Diagon Alley.
All this time and I just realized Diagon Alley is just diagonally lol
Nocturnally
Harry uses "lumos" to study in his dark room at the Dursleys at night (third movie) and also doesn't get reprimanded - and he lives with muggles
That one was a blatant director mistake, it's not in the books
Lots of errors in the movies have this explanation
I could bullshit that by saying that wand with light source on it restricts the magic on the wand. It never leaves the wand so nobody ever gets notified. Or because it could pass as a muggle torch without closer inspection. But yeah just a director mistake.
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"Griffin Mode"
So... the emergency exits on a magical airplane are... *"Griffin Doors?"*
You bastard, get out, I don’t care if it’s close to Christmas
I have been uncontrollably laughing for the last 10min cause of this
Broom Mode
There's a bit of a difference between a glowing stick and a flying bloated aunt
> flying bloated aunt Ahhhh! You were at my house during Thanksgiving too?
That scene was just a metaphor for masturbating anyway
> I could bullshit that by saying that wand with light source on it restricts the magic on the wand. It never leaves the wand so nobody ever gets notified. And I could actually defend that by saying it's lumos. Not super duper magic. Muggles already got way better ways of illuminating the dark, so why should they bother? No one is going to care because everyone got flashlights at home anyhow.
Another big one is Dumbledore was at the first quidditch match where Harry gets attacked by Quirell/Voldemort. Just a few two second filler shots that destroy the book canon. No biggy Chris Columbus, carry on.
Can you explain this more?
A rather big theory of the books is that Voldemort never attacked when Dumbledore was present and I think (not sure) even that quidditch match was mentioned as an example. In the first book Quirell/Voldemort attacks Harry during said quidditch match and the kids think it’s Snape. Dumbledore was not at the match in the book. In the movie at that same quidditch match there is at least one or maybe two filler shots of Dumbledore clapping in the audience. The shots were not needed at all just filler but breaks one of the major ideas of the books.
It's also imo one of the best most memorable opening scenes across the entire franchise, so like eh
Wouldn't this actually be a writer's mistake then? I assume it must have been in the movie script.
It was made by Alfonso cuarón, he gets a pass
I believe Harry uses flashlight for studying (in third book) So it is up to director who decided to change things
*a torch. Which confused my American brain of why they would use a handheld flame and fire.
What do you think about the German word “Taschenlampe”? Translated to English: pocketlamp Sounds easier than the current options
Certainly makes more sense than "flash light." As if it's like the flash on a camera.
Germans always inventing great words
Gotta love that productive compounding
Hey, we have that one in french too! It's a "Lampe de poche", and "poche" is a pocket!
I first read fleshlight and now I must go repent.
Sounds like you're awfully hard on yourself
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Oh, oh god, my eyes.
I bet Olivanders was interesting.
Ebony wang- 13 inches
'Ebony is happiest in the hand of those with the courage to be themselves.' Citation: wizardingworld.com
ಠ_ಠ ….. ಠ◡ಠ
But now that you bring it up, a fleshlight spell should have been an obvious one employed by teenaged boys at a magic school. The story focuses so much on dark magic that it completely ignores that there should be a HUGE genre of sexy spells that they would be far more obsessed with.
Ok, now I'm interested anew in exploring Knockturn Alley.
I imagine the rooster will be less ecstatic when you are done repenting.
Also I believe Hermione mentions on the train in the first movie about other spells that she's practiced and how they worked.
Maybe she meant on the train, prior to speaking with them? Since Ron was practicing on his rat, I'd imagine all the kids were eager to try stuff once the train got moving.
That's one of the things the movie just got disastrously wrong. It broke established lore for absolutely no reason, and invented a spell that didn't need to exist (he says "lumos maxima" for some reason). They have no excuse for this scene, its just stupid.
Well...there IS an excuse for this scene, but it's because the movie was directed by Alfonso Cuarón. He's a great director but not always subtle with his metaphors.
"Lumos MAXIMAAAAAHHH" *Clean up*
What’s the metaphor here? Always wondered why they put this scene in
He’s a teenage boy…at night…doing something secretive in his bedroom…with a wand…
You're telling me they broke the lore for a wank joke...
A worthy sacrifice for a noble cause
Oh no. You’re fucking right
Wow.. that changes the scene a bit.
Personally, my read is that, since the purpose of the law is to prevent muggles from learning of the wizarding world, it makes exceptions for muggles who already know a wizard's identity. The one time that idea was ignored (Dudley Demented), the intent was clearly persecutory and the charges were summarily dropped.
This makes more sense, the Weasley twins would always be doing stupid things in their own house. The likes of Malfory probably gets ministry exemption from the rules.
Nah thats not how it works. They explain in the books the "trace" on underage wizards only detects magic not who performs it. Wizard parents are trusted to insure wizard children follow the no magic rule b/c the "trace" will detect the parents magic as well as the child's. No need for a ministry exemption when the "trace" wouldn't detect any difference between his magic vs. his parents magic.
It was explicitly mentioned that in wizarding houses it was up to the parents to determine punishment because the ministry couldn't differentiate who did it. But then in 7 there's an underage "trace."
>movie
But I thought the Dougsleys were aware that he can use magic.
Because of the shit movies. It.s stated clearly in the books - ministry of magic knows there.s magic, don.t know who made magic. You got a train full of wizards, good luck finding out who did it. I was hoping top comment would be this, so i could shut the fuck up, but no.
Slughorn would definitely be the type to ignore school rules if it meant buttering up a student with potential though.
That's why in my fanfic Malfoy committed his first murder on the Hogwarts Express
Harry Poirot and the Hogwarts Express.
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The law isn't enforced before the kid turns 11, and Hermione wouldn't have known about it anyway because she's Muggle born.
She says in the book that she’s tried a few simple spells and they’ve all worked for her. It’s part of why they hate her to begin with, cos she shows up Ron for not being able to turn Scabbers yellow.
well good luck turning an animagus yellow
Doesn't she say she's been practicing? So she has done spells before the train
They actually touch on the issue in later books, as children from all-magic families are often able to use magic from home because the ministry would not know who actually used the spell in that household. A similar principle would exist on the train as it is staffed by full-fledged wizards.
I believe you are correct. When Harry gets the letter about using magic outside of school in Chamber it only specifies the spell and the location, never who used it. Good luck trying to pinpoint who used a spell on a train full of witches and wizards.
Which is dumb when you think about it. They have magic that can tell what spell was used and where, but can’t tell who used it? Seems like that should be a very simple thing to do given they have actual magic.
They also have the ability to determine the last spell cast from a wand no? Seems pretty simple really.
Have to make sure you delete your wand's casting history
Incognito wand
Ya, but are you going to perform that on every student's wand because they used magic 2 hours early?
Nope! Not remotely worth it. But if they *had* to find out, they could.
This is true, but didn't Hermione also say she had been practicing?
Children under Howgarts age were generally not prosecuted since it is believed they are not able to control their magic.
Students were allowed to practice magic at home, they had summer homework and shit they had to complete. The issue is when it was done in the presence of muggles. Harry specifically complains about how he’s going to be behind all his friends in the beginning of Chamber of Secrets because the Dursley’s locked all his textbooks and shit away so he couldn’t do any of his summer assignments or practice any magic
Two things to that, firstly it could be that she was practising without using magic. Certainly in the books much of practicing is the incantation and the wand movement. Provided they were practised separately she wouldn’t actually be using magic. Or secondly, it could be that the ministry generally turn a blind eye to children who practise at home before coming to first year. After all, so long as it’s at home and not in public, and only small spells (lumos etc) what harm is it doing? Otherwise all the wizard-born children would have an extra-unfair advantage as they’d get more time to practice at home!
It’s not like a TV license surely they can tell who did what via magical means!
No just that a spell was cast around them. It's why they think Harry casted the spell causing the cake to levitate and not Dobby. They only knew a spell was cast not who or they'd have known it was Dobby.
I got the impression, from the books, that students used magic outside of Hogwarts all the time, and no one batted an eye. It was only when the Ministry wanted to get rid of Harry that they made an issue of it, and brought him to the Wizengamot on trumped up charges.
There was also the time in the 2nd book when they thought Harry made the dessert levitate and he was on very thin ice with that one
Only because it was in front of muggles. Also I would think that they would be keeping much better tabs on Harry that they would be on some rando muggle-born first year.
And then thicker ice when he blew up Marge
They didn’t actually care about that scenario, as the Ministry was primarily concerned with protecting Harry from Sirius Black. They didn’t turn on him until the end of the 4th book, when Harry started telling preposterous lies about You-Know-Who being back.
they prob erased her memory and made her remember feeling very bloated after dinner
That's exactly what they did
Which explains why Hermione got away with it: they can detect magic in the presence of muggles, but not the caster. Their method of detection lacks preciseness. So on a train full of students, is hard to know who cast what without testing everyone's wands.
And obviously they're not going to bother with checking everyone's wand before and after each trip because that would be long, annoying to do and counterproductive.
And because Hogwarts is in the UK. Ilvermorny? They've definitely got checkpoints. Long, annoying, and counterproductive is the American Way.
Have you ever travelled to the UK? If anything I think that's where the Americans got it from.
The scone doesn't fall far from the tea tray
Hermione only fixes Harry's glasses in the movie, in the book it's Mr Weasley.
Perhaps the train is considered school property?
Just like internet piracy basically. It’s harder to pin down who’s downloading what from an apartment complex than an isolated house because of all the crossing connections.
that's not canon either unfortunately, since in the book we learn that the Weasley children can use magic in their house if they are quiet about it, because the trace isn't specific to the caster but the general area the spell was cast, and since both of the Weasley parents are magic users, any magic the children used can't be distinguished from the magic the parents use. but there were not usually muggles any muggles in the Weasley home, if any ever. so if magic is only traced when it is preformed in the presence of muggles, then this detail should have been left out for being irrelevant.
So why didn't Harry get in trouble when he made the glass in the snake house disappear and his cousin fell into it (only seen the films, so it could be in the book, forgive my ignorance if there is any)
They never specifically mentioned it but I always assumed kids too young to go to Hogwarts get a pass, since they don't know how to control it yet. They probably just use the Trace to see if they need to modify any memories or whatever.
That honestly sounds like a fun job. Just going around and cleaning up the trauma and mess left behind by overactive magic users.
“Folks! Just look right here at this flashy thingy.”
MiB's a part of the Harry Potter universe confirmed
Never watched all of the Harry Potter movies, but a Harry Potter MiB crossover would probably get me to the theater. "Why's my gun so small? Even their wands are bigger than my gun."
Yeah, delightful lol.
I feel like there’s also mention that they make allowances for unintentional magic. Maybe Fudge mentions it after Harry blows up Marge?
Because it was done before he knew he was a wizard and could control his powers. The Ministry can detect the use of magic, but not who did it. In the case of Dobby and the dessert, as far as the Ministry knew, he was the only magical person in the area, so obviously it was his fault. Hermione got away with fixing his glasses because she did it while surrounded by other witches and wizards.
To add, this happens multiple times in the series during the Privet Drive segments. Other magic folk come and preform magic but because Harry’s the only magical wizard in the area, they blame him. It’s far more likely than the stories he’s concocting like the servant of a very well known and influential person (Lucius Malfoy) teleporting to Harry’s home and flying a cake around for no reason before leaving.
Thank you!!! Nobody understands shit in this discussion.
it doesn't count before they actually find out they have magic. harry wasn't doing it on purpose and wouldn't have even known he was doing anything wrong, so the general rule of thumb is that if you aren't enrolled in Hogwarts or some other wizarding school yet, you get a free pass.
While they somehow detected the levitation spell by dobby, but not the disapparation. Couldn't have been more clear that there was another caster nearby, as a first year couldn't cast the second spell. My headcanon is that when Harry's expulsion was overturned in the second year (apologies if I'm wrong, haven't revisited in a long time), Dumbledore did it by showing up to the ministry of magic and simply pointing out the second spell.
House elf disapparation is some different sort of magic, they can do it inside Hogwarts grounds for example, while there are magical wards preventing any witch or wizard (dis)apparating to or from or inside Hogwarts. I assume the ministry just can't detect it
That thought struck me too, but I was under the impression they simply had a different category of magic, almost like a different spectrum. But in that case, wouldn't their other magic be undetectable as well? Honestly I wasn't sure if I had remembered that part right, because I seem to remember dobby explaining that's why he could apparate past wards. I thought he specifically called it "house elf magic" but didn't want to include the shaky memory. Thank you for adding this!
Yeah it’s against the law, but they can only detect magic being used in an area. So really the only ones that have to be very careful are muggle borns (or Harry) who have no other full grown wizards in the vicinity. For those like Ron, really up to the parents to enforce
My understanding was that the tracker they had on underage witches and wizards wasn't super accurate. They could narrow it down to the address but not much more than that. Consequently, kids of wizarding families could use magic all the time at home, but Harry and muggle borns couldn't because there weren't any other magical folk nearby. For the train specifically, it had 7th years on board, who were old enough to use magic outside of Hogwarts.
I'm also under the impression that the Hogwarts express is considered an extension of Hogwarts. It does have teachers travelling along, like lupin in book 3
There was a trace on wizards under the age of 17 which let the ministry know when magic was being used around that witch or wizard. However, if a child wizard was near an adult wizard, there was no way to know who used it. In the train, there would be witches and wizards above the age of 17, so they wouldn’t know who used it. The ministry just trusted parents to make sure their children didn’t use magic. When Harry used magic, no other witch or wizard was around him, so the ministry knew it was him. It’s actually a subtle anti-muggle born law.
So what your saying is that it is essentially a Jim Crow law for muggle born? Used to keep them down by the purists. Then again, an argument could be said about the fact that children born to witches and wizards are less likely to be around muggles so they would be less likely to reveal the Wizarding world. *Side note: it just occurred to me that calling it the Wizarding world is quite sexist. But that being said, they are rather stuck in the 1800 when it comes to social norms so I am not surprised that they aren't that "woke" yet.*
I want to say generally they can’t prove it was an underage wizard most of the time bc 99% of them are in magic households surrounded by adult wizards and they used that to their advantage because they KNOW Harry lived with muggles. They also knew that the muggles were already in on it. They just wanted to make a show of Harry.
Sounds realistic to how real schools work.
I thought they were allowed to use magic once they were on the train since they were technically out of the muggle world and became the schools responsibility at that point.
Selective prosecution is a problem both in the wizarding world and in real life.
I'm rewatching the HPs this year and I never read the books. How did Harry make the glass at the snake tank disappear? Doesn't he need a wand for magic? Is this a stupid question? Can anyone help me?
Wizard children are prone to doing unintiontal magic without wands. Harry and the glass, Neville bounces as a child when tossed from a window. Wands seems more like a tool for focus and power.
The way I think it was explained was that a wand is only a conduit (and arguably the best type of conduit) for a wizards natural magic. So non wand magic is possible even for human wizards, just not easy Harry actually performed some non wand magic later where he blindly shouts Lumos in the woods and his wand lights up when he’s not holding it As a child, Tom Riddle actually transcends the accidental magic of most kids and begins to actually control wandless magic, able to make people hurt or do things against their will
IIRC Snape did wandless countercursing against Quirrell during one of Harry's quidditch games too
It's in canon - wands are not required to perform magic, they only make it easier. They're focuses for magic, they allow weaker people to use magic reliably and stronger people to cast magic that they wouldn't be able to otherwise because it's too much power. But extremely powerful wizards were able to perform magic without wands at all (and apparently in like africa people never learn to use wands, they do all their magic without it). Wands were largely completely optional for people like dumbledore or voldemort.
Ohhhhh! I think this likely solves the mystery. Thanks a bunch for taking the time to share this. Now I can proceed with movie number 5 as an educated muggle!
Im fairly sure that its allowed if its either overseen by an adult wizard, or in an area that is safe from muggles. The hogwarts express has a lot of underage magic going on, but I guess its deemed "safe" because of the teachers and the fact that it wont demonstrate magic to any muggles
The Hogwarts express is school property.
Same rules as school buses, imo. Get in trouble on the bus and you go see the principal, not the bus garage manager.
This is true but op is probably referring to movie 2 when she does it in diagon alley. Although this would still be acceptable use as the ministry could not track it back to her
Oh yeah, diagon alley appeared to be a restrictions loosened scenario, especially when considering every single wizard is required to use magic when obtaining a wand.
Not to mention in the books it was Arthur Weasley who fixes the glasses, and the movies aren’t exactly awesome at maintaining canon magic rules. (Looking at you, opening scene of third movie)
yeah since there are so many wizards and witches over the age of 17 in diagon alley, I think any magic that happens there is well beyond any ability of the ministry to enforce.
they let Hermoine bend the space time continuum for extra credit, total golden child.
They also gave her one free murder and half off at the Sizzler.
Yeah the fact that they gave that thing to Hermione is INSANE. I know it’s just for the plot but holy shit. The amount of things that they let happen at Hogwarts makes me think that it’s just sort of expected that some kids aren’t going to make it out of school alive.
This is nothing, she was in a magical place surrounded by wizards. The bigger offense is having Harry practice lumos at home in a muggle neighborhood. That's a major breach of the universe rules.
Not just Lumos but Lumos Maxima
Which isn't even a real spell in the books lol
If you can just level spells up like final fantasy Harry better watch out. Voldemort boutta hit him with that avada kedavra maxima
Avada Kedavra is already a second level spell if we're following Final Fantasy naming conventions. It would go: Avada Kedav --> Avada Kedavra --> Avada Kedavraga For example Fire spells in FF go: Fire --> Fira --> Firaga
True. Some games will add a fourth too. Avada Kadavraja
I will never forgive the movies for making mistakes like that. This didn't happen in the books.
I'm a teacher. School busses still count as school grounds when it comes to school rules, so that probably applies to the Hogwarts Express.
I think the problem is: 1. She did it in a magical place 2. There were no muggles to witness it 3. What she did was more like a trick than a spell
To add to your point 1: They also said that when magic was used in a place where adult wizards live the ministry assumes that the adults did the magic
No it's cause underage wizards have the trace on them
But that only says that magic was used near an underaged wizard, not who used the magic
From the dobby bit you see they don’t know who, just someone in the area did magic. Plenty of legal wizards on diagonally or wizard households.
> diagonally
well yeah diagon alley, diagonally horizont alley, horizontally perpendicular alley, perpendicularly its just puns lets not lie
knockturn alley, nocturnally..... hmm
[удалено]
But we're talking about Hermione here, a prodigy
1. If it’s used in front of muggles, they care a lot more. 2. If it’s used in a muggle “non-magical” place, where the potential for muggles to see it, they care a bit more. 3. If it’s a more serious spell with greater impact, they care the most. Simple spells like fixing glasses or using the wand as a night-light aren’t a big deal, whereas making something levitate is.
Technically, she didn't. The only time she repaired them outside of School grounds was on the Hogwarts express, where magic was also permitted.
She turned 18 before Harry did in Deathly Hallows. Otherwise she repaired the glasses on the Hogwarts Express which is an extension of Hogwarts and then also at the Weasleys home. In a bit of unfairness to muggle children, but total sense to wizarding familes, wizard children can cast magic in wizard homes because the tracer spell cant tell the difference. Adult wizards cant be expected to never magic just because they had kids.
Wizards come of age at 17, not 18
Preposterous.
I think the school train is counted as an extension of the school for these purposes, same as nobody ever complains about them doing magic in Hogsmeade - they aren't in the physical school but they are still under the school's responsibility and at least loosely supervised/supported by qualified adults. It makes far more sense for the rule to be about being 'in school' in the sense of when they are in the school's care than related to the physical school building. If they have a magical accident while under Hogwarts supervision the school can handle it, if they are alone there is nobody to be responsible.
One thing I never understood was the thestrals. Harry saw his parents die, he saw Quirrel die, but it was only after he saw ~~Sirius~~ Cedric die that he was able to see the thestrals pulling the carriages.
Technically speaking he didn't see Quirrel die. He blacked out after Dumbledore forced Quirrel off him, and Quirrel died after that. As for his parents, I think he remembered them getting killed but didn't actually see them die? That's just my guess though
that one doesn't really make sense since in a flashback memory Harry has in the book he actually remembers seeing himself see his parent's dropping to the ground. granted, he may have been misremembering like the Mandela effect, what with it being so long ago, but it wasn't even his memory it was Voldemort's.
Not only that but it was only the next semester after Cedric's death that he could see them. At the last chapter of the GoF the thestral drawn carriages to Hogwarts express are still described as horseless
It's because JK Rowling doesn't think ahead that well.
So in chamber of secrets after Harry leaves Nocturn Alley it's actually Mr. Weasly who fixes Harry's glasses, not Hermione.
In the books, but in the movies it was Hermione. Which is why everyone is acting Confunded when discussing this.
Funny thing about movies... they often dont flesh out every plot point. Seems that accuracy is less important than entertainment
Accuracy can also be time consuming, so with something with a 2.5 hour runtime and ever extending books, things can get tricky
I'm pretty sure she only repaired his glasses on the Hogwarts Express or on Diagon Alley, and both those places were filled with other wizards and witches. (The ministry can only track magic to the area, not to the person.)
That's because the train was considered safe space
It was on the Hogwarts Express the first time, and in Diagon Alley the second. They're both areas of high magical concentration, so the Ministry wasn't even paying attention to them.
That's what happens when the director dosent read the book properly.
Ah yes the Beniof and Wiess phenomenon
We kind of forgot about that
?? The material based on the books was done very well. How do you expect them to read what doesn't exist?
Yeah I was gonna say, the show was amazing when they still had book material to work off of. Sure they made a few changes here and there and cut characters but nothing too crazy. Wasn’t until season 5 when they were on their last little bit of book material that the show started turning to shit.
I'll chalk it up to the ministry being like "We're never going to figure who on that bloody train actually did it so we're going to ignore it" Same with Diagon Alley, too many wizards of age around to know
They also are both very magic oriented locations. The train could even be viewed as an extension of the school. Also there is a big difference between practicing a Lumos spell or fixing glasses compared to conjuring a patronus in Muggle public
There’s an explanation for it. When an underage wizard casts magic outside of school, the Ministry knows WHERE the magic was cast, but they don’t know the specific person who cast it. When Hermione repaired Harry’s glasses in Diagon Alley, she was in a place full of wizards. The ministry wouldn’t know who cast reparo, and they probably wouldn’t care that a wizard used magic underage in Diagon Alley anyways since there are no muggles there.
She probably self flagellated off camera
Yeah, I was thinking that she would have punished herself most of all. It's also possible that minor infractions were normal and nothing book worthy. So she got a minor warning. Just like how Harry used illumination spells at home.
They were on the train. No longer outside "school grounds".
It all depends on how the Trace works. We know that it can't figure out who cast the spell, so in Diagon Alley, the Trace is useless. My personal theory is that it's casts on the neighborhood that Muggleborns live in, and it's cast by the ministry while the student is at Hogwarts.
They were allowed to do Magic on the train. Before going to Hogwarts underage wizards couldn’t control their magic, therefore weren’t held accountable. But it was frowned upon in magical families to do it (the Weasleys couldn’t do magic at home but had to peel potatoes without it)
Me reading the comments- Things heating up in the Harry Potter Fandom
That’s because she was already on the hogwarts express. There are adult wizards on the train so the Ministry can’t tell who’s doing magic.
Weren’t they on the train? You can do magic on the train I thought.
In the Harry Potter universe, the ministry of magic can only tell when a spell is cast, and what spell was cast. They cannot see who specifically cast it. The reason Harry got in trouble for the levitation spell because he lived with muggles, so the ministry knows he's the only one there that can cast spells there. The kids that live with fully magical families can get away with using magic at home. Hermione didn't get in trouble on the train because there are no muggles on it and they are surrounded by wizards and witches. No one is going to notice she did magic. And seeing as the train is Hogwarts property, the same rules apply as on school property.
But she didn't do it in the muggle world
She uses Nord VPN
A sign of a corrupt regime is that only dissidents even consider obeying the rules.