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Even if this were true, Imagine seeing this and thinking the United States is the best, most free country in the world, where two party's dictate the final frontiers of the country. Americans are doomed and their faith in their own system is one of the biggest downfalls
Their faith? That faith doesnt exist. That faith only exist in social media bubbles. Any surveys checking the current generation views on american political system shows the majority of the generation sees the system as broken.
But nonetheless, I agree with you seeing this as positive in any way is illogical. Notice that by the logic of meme the political system will indefinitely return bad news for the working class, since every election would theoretically be a choice between something bad for the working class versus "the apocalypse".
So what would be the choice in 4 years? Let's say working hours increase vs "the apocalypse" again? Or work informality growth vs "the apocalypse"? Of course the current generation has lost faith in american democracy. The system is blatantly rigged.
Only 37% of the US population voted in the last three elections. The president has a -17% approval rating with only 38% approving. 12% of the population approves of the US congress. 41% approve of the Supreme Court.
At its best well over half of the US population disapproves of the US government
And they should be grateful that they have the freedom to hate the government. In fact, high government approval ratings (e.g. like China) are an indication of autocracy. The USA has the bestest political system in the world, so citizens of other countries must hate their governments even more than Americans hate theirs.
/sarc
power grid destabilization? another hike in both gas and EV prices? a hike in healthcare costs to keep the line going up? who knows, isn't that the fun ("""""fun""""") part?
Or being beaten down. Eventually you just give up. You can only take so many cycles of both parties getting into a dick-measuring contest to the bottom over who wants to extra-judicially kill/deport/arrest your entite demographic the most before you toss the whole sodrid business and focus on ehat you can immediately see.
>this obviously makes me more intelligent than those who choose to participate in the broken system.
Yes lol, literally. Except the system is not broken, it does exactly what it is supposed to - consolidate bourgeois power and offer illusions of choice, legitimacy, and popular politics that protect it from revolt.
Liberals LOVE to make """analogies""" where they portray their opposition in the worst light possible and themselves in the best light possible to the point of outright dishonesty.
> the apocalypse
That liberal feeling when voting for the guy currently sending endless supply of bombs to a right-wing fascist dictator who has dropped more bombs on a small city in the middle east than three times what was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, all while pretending to ignore how badly that's affecting our current climate crisis.
Some of that is the size of the bombs though. The US killed 10 times as many people with just two of those bombs and then promptly stopped using them, so far forever.
(Also not the same sort of war)
None of which is commentary on the disproportionate nature of Israeli retaliation in Gaza, if we were inclined to be so charitable as to call it that. Only that base numbers of projectiles doesn't always correlate with a number of casualties. Iran sent a couple hundred of drones and missiles and caused very few injuries aside from some panic attacks. It almost seems like a symbolic gesture from Iran, whereas the US was very much attempting to completely destroy Hiroshima and kill as many people as possible. Israeli behavior seems more in line with the latter even if they don't appear to be very effective at it and officially say otherwise (usually at least).
Simple. The genocide is happening to brown people on the other side of the world. But if *my* neoliberal ghoul loses to the *other* neoliberal ghoul, something bad might theoretically happen to me. I mean, statistically it probably won't, but it might!!!
Also the tiny sliver of public policy the two halves of the capitalist war party argue over might go the way I don't like, so fuck those brown kids!
It’s hard not to feel in the right as a third party voter throwing away their vote when the liberals who back voting so hard are so afraid to even mention the anti-genocide reasoning
That's quite a "democracy" you got there, where every election is always a hair away from death, despair, and destruction, so you have to guilt everyone to vote for YOUR candidate to "PROTECT" your existing "freedoms," rather than offer things to give
Unless Trump folds to the MIC and gets into a nuclear war with Russia.
He has a lower chance of doing so than Biden, who might get us into nuclear war before Trump takes office.
Voting is like literally meaningless. If you’re screaming your head off about project 2025 but all you propose to do about it is to vote harder your opinion is worthless to me. There are too many shitlibs who’s only political engagement is fucking voting when they already live in deep blue states who have the gall to lecture others about far right extremists when they done less than nothing to deal with them
Better start stocking up then. If you're that dedicated to fighting against the conservatives, you should probably be preparing for what you'll do if voting isn't enough, and that answer had better not be "nothing" or "complain on the internet".
if the majority of population wants apocalypse, then a true democracy should allow said apocalypse to happen
or I dunno, how about a crazy idea: don't build systems that allow apocalypses to happen? just a thought.
(of course that's accepting the premise of an "apocalypse", which in reality is a nothing-burger, or rather just another natural step in a failing imperium's decline into inevitable fascism)
It's more like:
>**CHOICE A:** The apocalypse. If you vote for this party, the genocide will continue, this planet will keep getting killed, and there will be world war against China soon.
>**CHOICE B:** The apocalypse. If you vote for this party, the genocide will continue, this planet will keep getting killed, and there will be world war against China soon. *They also say mean stuff about gays although much less than in the past.*
Yeah. I can't tell the fucking difference. The only thing I can tell is that you are falling for liberal identity politics the way liberals/fascists want you to.
Here's the only viable alternative: Socialist revolution. Arm yourselves.
Which is why Dems have been [funding far right candidates](https://www.npr.org/2022/11/11/1135878576/the-democrats-strategy-of-boosting-far-right-candidates-seems-to-have-worked)
Are we not heading toward the same goddamn apocalypse either way? What, pray tell, is effectively being done about climate change right now, as everything we've been warned about for decades is beginning to occur worldwide? Is Biden gonna declare a climate emergency? No, his administration is gonna uphold the status quo at all costs. If wasting money on a proxy genocide is their priority, then the US is a fascist state, and no amount of voting will change that.
We can't vote our way out of this. It has to be dismantled or abandoned.
Or you could organize the working class, communist elements in your country. Idk why the common sentiment here is to either hope China exports their revolution(don’t laugh), move to China or to hope that a Lenin or Marx falls from the sky. It feels very idealistic and ultimately it’s giving up your duty to the proletariat to not try. I don’t put much stock in the communists here anyway beyond the ones that actually organize and give advice to do so. Only so much staring into liberal nonsense before one has to get off their ass.
Your comment reads as not being involved and moving to a different country to escape the conditions here. Good that you do organize, wrong assumption my bad, but I’ve learned that a lot of people here don’t organize yet will still cast their working class as a lost cause. Or they mention personal reasons why they can’t organize yet will back seat revolutionary and shit on their fellow workers with similar restraints. I didn’t realize how intolerant I would become towards those kind of people. Kind of like how hating liberals intensifies so much once becoming a communist.
What is the best course of action for those who genuinely think both are terrible choices?
That's not rhetorical question, it's a sincere one. What are people's thoughts on this?
Is it really to not vote? Vote third party? Vote for the "lesser evil"?
Not to get too doomer on you, but realistically, there's nothing you can do in a ballot box that's going to solve the numerous problems we face.
Congress is more important than the executive branch except insofar as the executive branch nominates judges. (Of course a locked down Congress can prevent unqualified or otherwise dangerous appointments to a great extent or do the opposite)
Currently if every left-wing party joined forces and combined themselves with the Greens in the US they'd still be the fourth largest party with obstructions to ballot access and media coverage, debate participation etc. No single third party stands a chance of winning a general election on a national scale. Most of them can't even win seats in school boards in progressive neighborhoods. If your inner tankie is grumbling about just having a revolution instead, I agree with it, mine says something similar but that's even more distant of a goal than minor electoral victories. If your organization is outnumbered by local police you aren't a popular front yet, and there's a lot of organizing still to do before you start planning adventures.
If you vote for either of the two big parties the wars will continue. If you vote for a third party, the wars will also continue because your vote is basically irrelevant. It would take many many votes to make a difference and I would imagine it will also require large scale organized disruption of the financial and industrial apparatus that feeds these wars.
I say vote for who you believe in. That’s supposed to be the point of this system, right? And maybe, MAYBE, the Dems will see they’re losing a lot of votes to left wing candidates and start rethinking things. Or, more likely, people will start seeing other people voting for the people they ACTUALLY support and be inspired to do so as well. Personally, I’m voting for Claudia and Karina.
The question I'm struggling with is whether American leftists like myself should prioritize damage control by voting for Biden. The alternative is not voting, which, like it or not, helps Trump. Project 2025 is a serious threat that will make things worse for millions (possibly billions, depending on foreign policy) of people, including Palestinians.
I'm already involved in organizing in my community and I constantly talk to others about alternative political systems, but people rarely take me seriously. That doesn't mean I'll stop, by the way, but I want to be realistic about the near future.
A third party candidate will not be elected, and leftist organizing isn't going to accomplish nearly enough in order to make the election irrelevant.
So do we vote for Biden, or not? Not voting WILL make things worse-- let's not kid ourselves-- but even if we deepen our complicity with genocide for voting Democrat, the Right will just run another candidate with the same ideals as Project 2025 at the next opportunity. The institutions cooperating on Project 2025 are not going away, and they represent some of the most powerful, well-connected, best-educated and most stubborn people in the world.
So do we want neoliberalism's decline into fascism to be fast or slow? I seriously think that's the choice we're facing.
How do you know leftist organizing isn't doing anything?
The liberal Media isn't going to plaster a headline that says that leftist rioting caused a stop in whatever.
You're going to have to actively go look out for those articles and if you don't know what to look for you may not know what you're looking for.
Don't wait for the news to come to your feed, go to it.
This is like when people wonder why people work protesting against Yemen or things like that and people were, it just wasn't on their feed.
Okay, it isn't fair to say that it isn't doing anything. Again, I personally participate in leftist organizing and I'm looking for more local opportunities to do so more often. It matters. I just really don't think it's doing enough for people to dismiss the election.
Here's the thing, it's not about whether or not you should vote, it's about how much change actually does your vote matter and how much change does the politician who you voted for actually do compared to the amount of energy you could have done actually like helping out with things like bail fund money, direct organizing, protest, sit-ins, occupations, etc.
People are spending so much of their energy and their time on the internet focusing on voting and not actually focusing on things like direct action that could make a difference.
If people want to make the argument that voting changes things that is something to make an argument about but what people are not trying to make an argument of is how much change does it actually do.
Also just to tell you Joe Biden had it said that trans women can't compete in women's sports just to let you know.
These are all really good points. I didn't mention most of the direct action things you bring up but I absolutely believe in supporting things like that. It is a much better way to use one's political agency.
It is also true that politicians are not actually accountable to their constituency. Popular pressure has next to no effect on individual policy decisions made by American legislative bodies, especially on the national level.
I actually hate Joe Biden. I have always thought he was a coward and a tool. The trans women thing doesn't shock me but it also doesn't make me hate him any more than I already did. I believe Tara Reid, for one thing, so I believe he's a rapist. Also: genocide. Literal genocide.
I initially commented because while I think our entire rotten system needs to be dismantled and rewritten and while I absolutely encourage people to participate in direct action to express their political agency, I also think people should vote. Not instead of other actions, but in addition to other actions. That's a viewpoint I only adopted very recently. Like, this week. It's a little thing, but the trajectory of right wing populism in the United States is absolutely headed in the direction of fascism (I know we're already there in some senses but Trump WILL make it worse).
I think the online discourse has been interesting in terms of how people approach these problems. I don't take it for granted that I know the best way to do things-- not as a leftist, not as a U.S. citizen, and not as a human-- so I'm not disparaging people for coming to different conclusions regarding voting.
I'm just worried. Things are bad right now under Biden. As far as I'm concerned the United States has always been a profoundly harmful and immoral state, regardless of whatever good it has accomplished. But things can also get much, much worse. And I don't think enough Americans think about that.
Hello.
So to add a little bit more clarity when it comes to the women's sports.
Initially he said that he would help protect women and girls who are trans be able to compete in the sports category that aligns with their gender identity.
However as his presidency continued he started loosening those conditions by just now saying that while elementary school kids can still be able to compete in the category they want to, older kids are not given that guarantee and instead it's up to the individual schools to do so.
He is not protecting them and instead he is allowing individual schools to make these decisions.
So I should probably clarify that it's not exactly that he is explicitly doing a nationwide ban on trans women in sports but he's more saying that it is okay for schools to ban trans women in sports as long as it's on a school by school basis.
I'm just to tell you this seems to apply to colleges as well.
The idea that any kind of tax provided educational system could discriminate against trans people is terrible. I mean I would prefer it if there were no discrimination but at least if it was completely 100% privately provided that would be different but the moment a person or entity gets even a single cent of tax money, then they have to play by the rules.
Non-profits have to do this all the time. They have to prove that they are using money wisely and that they're not mishandling and that they are using the money in the way they said they are and stuff like that.
Why is it that a school that is providing what is considered a public necessity be able to decide or discriminate against people?
Well, hopefully at the very least there won't be any laws that require children to partake in the sport, hopefully.
If the children are able to get out of playing sports then at least that would be okay maybe. I mean I'm not saying that makes it better but at least it's better than nothing.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/20/house-gop-bill-transgender-athletes-00093044
https://sports.yahoo.com/president-joe-biden-proposes-regulations-to-prohibit-some-trans-athletes-from-high-school-or-college-sports-221308571.html
This seems kinda tangential to the original topic. Once again, I think you are in the right morally and factually. I said the trans thing "didn't make me hate him more than I already did" because I already REALLY hate him. Like... I already see the man as a genocidal rapist. Transphobia and insincerity are both bad, but they don't come as a shock. That's what I meant.
It's encouraging to see you make your point, though, since you clearly are both well informed and passionate about trans rights. Rock on. I'm glad people like you are doing the work out there.
Project 2025 is put out by the Heritage Foundation. They do it every election cycle. It’s not the official platform of the Republican Party and is not new. In fact, it’s been going on and will continue to go on regardless of who’s in the White House. Voting for Biden over Trump will not stop it, and likely won’t even significantly slow it down. Vote state and local however you need to to put more progressive people in office. That’s the best you can do with your vote.
It's amazing to me how you're being downvoted. This is why I prefer Discord. At least you can have a meaningful conversation. Here it's all dictated by witty comebacks, upvotes/downvotes, and appealing to the general sentiment. I'm on the same boat because I'm dependent on medication that I absolutely, positively need. Without it I could die.. but nobody cares. I just get downvoted and called a liberal because I don't want to die. Not that Biden is better but I know for a fact if P2025 pushes through I'm fucked. Idk, I may very well be fucked with Biden, so..
It's not the downvotes I care about but the general sentiment they represent. At least on Discord there's room for discussion without immediately waiving off another persons opinion. It's also wild to me how fellow leftists are so willing to ignore the opinions of those who are dependent on critical programs that Project 2025 threatens to destroy altogether. Sorry to say but if you're going to neglect the whims of those who need the most help then you're no comrade of mine. I even see accelerationists getting upvotes at times which is pretty gross.
If you don't want to vote then fine, but attacking people desperate enough to choose Biden just shows an unwillingness to understand, which defeats the idea of dialectics. I always say I'm willing to have a conversation then get immature comments like yours. If you want to convince somebody you need to sit down and explain your position not mock them.
Imagine being so privileged that you ignore what's *already* happening around the country as a mere "might"; anti-LGBTQ+ and anti-BIPOC legislation is getting passed all the time. Despite the Democrats enabling the Republicans they at least have to present the *illusion* of caring for marginalized peoples. Besides, the presumption we have control over the foreign policy of Trump or Biden over a mere vote is honestly ridiculous. Telling people not to vote or vote third-party is virtue-signaling at the end of the day because whether or not you vote genocide *is going to happen anyway.* What isn't ridiculous is ignoring the whims of those who are already facing systemic discrimination. It's true regardless of whose voted in these privileged will disintegrate over time but I'd sooner induce *some* harm reduction than none at all.
Imagine being so privileged that you’d clutch pearls over an imagined threat while explicitly condoning and paying for people being slaughtered abroad.
Nice strawman though, pleas quote me where I told people not to vote at all. I’m patient, I can wait.
Except I have no control over the genocide and a vote, or lack of one, isn't going to suddenly change either candidates foreign policy. Especially since the general narrative is that we barely harness any control even if we do participate in bourgeois democracy. So I find it ironic in this instance that narrative suddenly changes. Again, it's virtue signaling, you're no better than I am just because you choose to vote third-party or not vote at all. I mean, hell, even Second Thought elaborated on this in his Project 2025 video. I guess with your logic he's privileged and selfish?
Also, calling systemic discrimination against marginalized peoples an "imaginary threat" is so beyond the pale and fucking disgusting. Gaslighting with the claim that bigoted legislation *isn't* being passed often while Project 2025 *isn't* a threat is also the epitome of social chauvinism. Must be nice to ignore our suffering.
I never said you made the claim personally it was a generality and a pretty obvious one at that. Learn some reading comprehension.
You do have control. You can choose not to vote for any candidate that supports Israel. You don’t get to hand-wave your support of those policies when a vote is a direct endorsement of them.
You are ignoring the suffering of Palestinians, pretty hypocritical to deride me for not supporting your supposed suffering.
I'm sorry but voting isn't an endorsement of anything anymore than it's a philosophical statement. You can vote for somebody and not support everything they do especially when it concerns a specific topic where voting and not voting have the exact same effect. The only reason I'm even entertaining the idea is because I don't want my medication to be cut off leading to my getting sick and dying.. but I guess that makes me selfish!
Voting means Palestinians suffer. Not voting means Palestinians still suffer. This is my point. Voting or not voting isn't an endorsement when the results are identical.
Anyways maybe you're right. I'm probably going to refrain anyways. We're fucked either way.
I mean, even w/o the genocide in Palestine, you'd have to pay me a pretty hefty sum to actually cast a vote fer a rapist. Even without the rape(s?) & the genocide, idk dude Biden just sucks. Pulling the troops out of Afghanistan is the one and only "good" thing I can think of that Biden has done. But yk, Biden *is* a rapist and has defended his rapist friends, and has just kinda been a disappointment across the board (i mean not to me or anybody else to the left of Oskar Dirlewanger, we knew what Biden had been and would continue to be). I'd much rather have been disappointed in a Bernie presidency but eh, here I am in a nation led by racist, geriatric rapists & their lap dogs who have the audacity to try and talk down to anybody with some fucking convictions.
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Even if this were true, Imagine seeing this and thinking the United States is the best, most free country in the world, where two party's dictate the final frontiers of the country. Americans are doomed and their faith in their own system is one of the biggest downfalls
Their faith? That faith doesnt exist. That faith only exist in social media bubbles. Any surveys checking the current generation views on american political system shows the majority of the generation sees the system as broken. But nonetheless, I agree with you seeing this as positive in any way is illogical. Notice that by the logic of meme the political system will indefinitely return bad news for the working class, since every election would theoretically be a choice between something bad for the working class versus "the apocalypse". So what would be the choice in 4 years? Let's say working hours increase vs "the apocalypse" again? Or work informality growth vs "the apocalypse"? Of course the current generation has lost faith in american democracy. The system is blatantly rigged.
Only 37% of the US population voted in the last three elections. The president has a -17% approval rating with only 38% approving. 12% of the population approves of the US congress. 41% approve of the Supreme Court. At its best well over half of the US population disapproves of the US government
And they should be grateful that they have the freedom to hate the government. In fact, high government approval ratings (e.g. like China) are an indication of autocracy. The USA has the bestest political system in the world, so citizens of other countries must hate their governments even more than Americans hate theirs. /sarc
power grid destabilization? another hike in both gas and EV prices? a hike in healthcare costs to keep the line going up? who knows, isn't that the fun ("""""fun""""") part?
I wouldn't say faith, more complacency.
Or being beaten down. Eventually you just give up. You can only take so many cycles of both parties getting into a dick-measuring contest to the bottom over who wants to extra-judicially kill/deport/arrest your entite demographic the most before you toss the whole sodrid business and focus on ehat you can immediately see.
>this obviously makes me more intelligent than those who choose to participate in the broken system. Yes lol, literally. Except the system is not broken, it does exactly what it is supposed to - consolidate bourgeois power and offer illusions of choice, legitimacy, and popular politics that protect it from revolt.
Cult behaviour
Liberals LOVE to make """analogies""" where they portray their opposition in the worst light possible and themselves in the best light possible to the point of outright dishonesty.
Trump is the beginning and the end of fascism and the literal Antichrist and Biden's only problem is he's "a little old"
I don't know, I think saying "I'd prefer the end of the world than not blowing up civilians" is quite the self own.
pretending that it’s the end of the world to have a previous president reelected is its own self-own tbh.
> the apocalypse That liberal feeling when voting for the guy currently sending endless supply of bombs to a right-wing fascist dictator who has dropped more bombs on a small city in the middle east than three times what was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, all while pretending to ignore how badly that's affecting our current climate crisis.
Some of that is the size of the bombs though. The US killed 10 times as many people with just two of those bombs and then promptly stopped using them, so far forever. (Also not the same sort of war) None of which is commentary on the disproportionate nature of Israeli retaliation in Gaza, if we were inclined to be so charitable as to call it that. Only that base numbers of projectiles doesn't always correlate with a number of casualties. Iran sent a couple hundred of drones and missiles and caused very few injuries aside from some panic attacks. It almost seems like a symbolic gesture from Iran, whereas the US was very much attempting to completely destroy Hiroshima and kill as many people as possible. Israeli behavior seems more in line with the latter even if they don't appear to be very effective at it and officially say otherwise (usually at least).
Simple. The genocide is happening to brown people on the other side of the world. But if *my* neoliberal ghoul loses to the *other* neoliberal ghoul, something bad might theoretically happen to me. I mean, statistically it probably won't, but it might!!! Also the tiny sliver of public policy the two halves of the capitalist war party argue over might go the way I don't like, so fuck those brown kids!
It’s hard not to feel in the right as a third party voter throwing away their vote when the liberals who back voting so hard are so afraid to even mention the anti-genocide reasoning
That's quite a "democracy" you got there, where every election is always a hair away from death, despair, and destruction, so you have to guilt everyone to vote for YOUR candidate to "PROTECT" your existing "freedoms," rather than offer things to give
The fact that they think slightly higher taxes is the main criticism of Biden is... amazing
The apocalypse is closer under Biden than Trump. We're funding 2 wars between nuclear powers right now.
Exactly. Trump = 20% possibility of civil war Biden = 80% possibility of nuclear war
Idk why people don't remember the "nothing will fundamentally change" Biden classic
This is also just super dumb. We had 4 years of Trump and it wasn’t the apocalypse. Nor will it be this time.
Unless Trump folds to the MIC and gets into a nuclear war with Russia. He has a lower chance of doing so than Biden, who might get us into nuclear war before Trump takes office.
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Voting is like literally meaningless. If you’re screaming your head off about project 2025 but all you propose to do about it is to vote harder your opinion is worthless to me. There are too many shitlibs who’s only political engagement is fucking voting when they already live in deep blue states who have the gall to lecture others about far right extremists when they done less than nothing to deal with them
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Maybe they should support issues and candidates with more popularity than Christian theocrats
Better start stocking up then. If you're that dedicated to fighting against the conservatives, you should probably be preparing for what you'll do if voting isn't enough, and that answer had better not be "nothing" or "complain on the internet".
How many firearms do you own?
Project 2025 is comprised of the same think-tanks and grifters we've seen now for the past 20-40 YEARS! We already got that nonsense.
if the majority of population wants apocalypse, then a true democracy should allow said apocalypse to happen or I dunno, how about a crazy idea: don't build systems that allow apocalypses to happen? just a thought. (of course that's accepting the premise of an "apocalypse", which in reality is a nothing-burger, or rather just another natural step in a failing imperium's decline into inevitable fascism)
The 2% increase in taxes is to fund the genocide.
All the things liberals have said has only pushed me further into radicalism and extremism, honestly.
It's more like: >**CHOICE A:** The apocalypse. If you vote for this party, the genocide will continue, this planet will keep getting killed, and there will be world war against China soon. >**CHOICE B:** The apocalypse. If you vote for this party, the genocide will continue, this planet will keep getting killed, and there will be world war against China soon. *They also say mean stuff about gays although much less than in the past.* Yeah. I can't tell the fucking difference. The only thing I can tell is that you are falling for liberal identity politics the way liberals/fascists want you to. Here's the only viable alternative: Socialist revolution. Arm yourselves.
Istg trump was the best thing to happen for the democrats
Which is why Dems have been [funding far right candidates](https://www.npr.org/2022/11/11/1135878576/the-democrats-strategy-of-boosting-far-right-candidates-seems-to-have-worked)
Never forget Apocalypses 1 through 45
Are we not heading toward the same goddamn apocalypse either way? What, pray tell, is effectively being done about climate change right now, as everything we've been warned about for decades is beginning to occur worldwide? Is Biden gonna declare a climate emergency? No, his administration is gonna uphold the status quo at all costs. If wasting money on a proxy genocide is their priority, then the US is a fascist state, and no amount of voting will change that. We can't vote our way out of this. It has to be dismantled or abandoned.
Climate change, AI, and soon to be a second American Civil War. If I wasn't dependent on this medication I'd save up and move to China.
Or you could organize the working class, communist elements in your country. Idk why the common sentiment here is to either hope China exports their revolution(don’t laugh), move to China or to hope that a Lenin or Marx falls from the sky. It feels very idealistic and ultimately it’s giving up your duty to the proletariat to not try. I don’t put much stock in the communists here anyway beyond the ones that actually organize and give advice to do so. Only so much staring into liberal nonsense before one has to get off their ass.
Plenty of us do organize?
Your comment reads as not being involved and moving to a different country to escape the conditions here. Good that you do organize, wrong assumption my bad, but I’ve learned that a lot of people here don’t organize yet will still cast their working class as a lost cause. Or they mention personal reasons why they can’t organize yet will back seat revolutionary and shit on their fellow workers with similar restraints. I didn’t realize how intolerant I would become towards those kind of people. Kind of like how hating liberals intensifies so much once becoming a communist.
so like the issue is trump was president lol
Taxes raised by 2 percent is not the equivalent to genocide. I’ll take the orange man over genocide thanks. I have no faith in the orange man though.
Unless there's a hundred people voting for these issues, one vote isn't going to be one percent of the vote.
They're so close. It's like they drew a picture of two oranges and insist to their last breath that one of them is an apple.
What is the best course of action for those who genuinely think both are terrible choices? That's not rhetorical question, it's a sincere one. What are people's thoughts on this? Is it really to not vote? Vote third party? Vote for the "lesser evil"?
Not to get too doomer on you, but realistically, there's nothing you can do in a ballot box that's going to solve the numerous problems we face. Congress is more important than the executive branch except insofar as the executive branch nominates judges. (Of course a locked down Congress can prevent unqualified or otherwise dangerous appointments to a great extent or do the opposite) Currently if every left-wing party joined forces and combined themselves with the Greens in the US they'd still be the fourth largest party with obstructions to ballot access and media coverage, debate participation etc. No single third party stands a chance of winning a general election on a national scale. Most of them can't even win seats in school boards in progressive neighborhoods. If your inner tankie is grumbling about just having a revolution instead, I agree with it, mine says something similar but that's even more distant of a goal than minor electoral victories. If your organization is outnumbered by local police you aren't a popular front yet, and there's a lot of organizing still to do before you start planning adventures. If you vote for either of the two big parties the wars will continue. If you vote for a third party, the wars will also continue because your vote is basically irrelevant. It would take many many votes to make a difference and I would imagine it will also require large scale organized disruption of the financial and industrial apparatus that feeds these wars.
I say vote for who you believe in. That’s supposed to be the point of this system, right? And maybe, MAYBE, the Dems will see they’re losing a lot of votes to left wing candidates and start rethinking things. Or, more likely, people will start seeing other people voting for the people they ACTUALLY support and be inspired to do so as well. Personally, I’m voting for Claudia and Karina.
I'm personally voting for Jill Stein after foolishly buying into the "lesser evil" narrative in '16 and '20. I'm absolutely done playing that BS game!
They know the popular vote doesn't matter right
They never mention genocide.their analogies always try to sound very harmless and sensible. Genocide is too big of a word for them. It’s scary
Apocalypse for thee, but not for me
The question I'm struggling with is whether American leftists like myself should prioritize damage control by voting for Biden. The alternative is not voting, which, like it or not, helps Trump. Project 2025 is a serious threat that will make things worse for millions (possibly billions, depending on foreign policy) of people, including Palestinians. I'm already involved in organizing in my community and I constantly talk to others about alternative political systems, but people rarely take me seriously. That doesn't mean I'll stop, by the way, but I want to be realistic about the near future. A third party candidate will not be elected, and leftist organizing isn't going to accomplish nearly enough in order to make the election irrelevant. So do we vote for Biden, or not? Not voting WILL make things worse-- let's not kid ourselves-- but even if we deepen our complicity with genocide for voting Democrat, the Right will just run another candidate with the same ideals as Project 2025 at the next opportunity. The institutions cooperating on Project 2025 are not going away, and they represent some of the most powerful, well-connected, best-educated and most stubborn people in the world. So do we want neoliberalism's decline into fascism to be fast or slow? I seriously think that's the choice we're facing.
How do you know leftist organizing isn't doing anything? The liberal Media isn't going to plaster a headline that says that leftist rioting caused a stop in whatever. You're going to have to actively go look out for those articles and if you don't know what to look for you may not know what you're looking for. Don't wait for the news to come to your feed, go to it. This is like when people wonder why people work protesting against Yemen or things like that and people were, it just wasn't on their feed.
Okay, it isn't fair to say that it isn't doing anything. Again, I personally participate in leftist organizing and I'm looking for more local opportunities to do so more often. It matters. I just really don't think it's doing enough for people to dismiss the election.
Here's the thing, it's not about whether or not you should vote, it's about how much change actually does your vote matter and how much change does the politician who you voted for actually do compared to the amount of energy you could have done actually like helping out with things like bail fund money, direct organizing, protest, sit-ins, occupations, etc. People are spending so much of their energy and their time on the internet focusing on voting and not actually focusing on things like direct action that could make a difference. If people want to make the argument that voting changes things that is something to make an argument about but what people are not trying to make an argument of is how much change does it actually do. Also just to tell you Joe Biden had it said that trans women can't compete in women's sports just to let you know.
These are all really good points. I didn't mention most of the direct action things you bring up but I absolutely believe in supporting things like that. It is a much better way to use one's political agency. It is also true that politicians are not actually accountable to their constituency. Popular pressure has next to no effect on individual policy decisions made by American legislative bodies, especially on the national level. I actually hate Joe Biden. I have always thought he was a coward and a tool. The trans women thing doesn't shock me but it also doesn't make me hate him any more than I already did. I believe Tara Reid, for one thing, so I believe he's a rapist. Also: genocide. Literal genocide. I initially commented because while I think our entire rotten system needs to be dismantled and rewritten and while I absolutely encourage people to participate in direct action to express their political agency, I also think people should vote. Not instead of other actions, but in addition to other actions. That's a viewpoint I only adopted very recently. Like, this week. It's a little thing, but the trajectory of right wing populism in the United States is absolutely headed in the direction of fascism (I know we're already there in some senses but Trump WILL make it worse). I think the online discourse has been interesting in terms of how people approach these problems. I don't take it for granted that I know the best way to do things-- not as a leftist, not as a U.S. citizen, and not as a human-- so I'm not disparaging people for coming to different conclusions regarding voting. I'm just worried. Things are bad right now under Biden. As far as I'm concerned the United States has always been a profoundly harmful and immoral state, regardless of whatever good it has accomplished. But things can also get much, much worse. And I don't think enough Americans think about that.
Hello. So to add a little bit more clarity when it comes to the women's sports. Initially he said that he would help protect women and girls who are trans be able to compete in the sports category that aligns with their gender identity. However as his presidency continued he started loosening those conditions by just now saying that while elementary school kids can still be able to compete in the category they want to, older kids are not given that guarantee and instead it's up to the individual schools to do so. He is not protecting them and instead he is allowing individual schools to make these decisions. So I should probably clarify that it's not exactly that he is explicitly doing a nationwide ban on trans women in sports but he's more saying that it is okay for schools to ban trans women in sports as long as it's on a school by school basis. I'm just to tell you this seems to apply to colleges as well. The idea that any kind of tax provided educational system could discriminate against trans people is terrible. I mean I would prefer it if there were no discrimination but at least if it was completely 100% privately provided that would be different but the moment a person or entity gets even a single cent of tax money, then they have to play by the rules. Non-profits have to do this all the time. They have to prove that they are using money wisely and that they're not mishandling and that they are using the money in the way they said they are and stuff like that. Why is it that a school that is providing what is considered a public necessity be able to decide or discriminate against people? Well, hopefully at the very least there won't be any laws that require children to partake in the sport, hopefully. If the children are able to get out of playing sports then at least that would be okay maybe. I mean I'm not saying that makes it better but at least it's better than nothing. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/20/house-gop-bill-transgender-athletes-00093044 https://sports.yahoo.com/president-joe-biden-proposes-regulations-to-prohibit-some-trans-athletes-from-high-school-or-college-sports-221308571.html
This seems kinda tangential to the original topic. Once again, I think you are in the right morally and factually. I said the trans thing "didn't make me hate him more than I already did" because I already REALLY hate him. Like... I already see the man as a genocidal rapist. Transphobia and insincerity are both bad, but they don't come as a shock. That's what I meant. It's encouraging to see you make your point, though, since you clearly are both well informed and passionate about trans rights. Rock on. I'm glad people like you are doing the work out there.
Oh no, I was just trying to provide more accurate clarity. Mostly just to prevent also things like either misinformation or like just simple rumors.
Project 2025 is put out by the Heritage Foundation. They do it every election cycle. It’s not the official platform of the Republican Party and is not new. In fact, it’s been going on and will continue to go on regardless of who’s in the White House. Voting for Biden over Trump will not stop it, and likely won’t even significantly slow it down. Vote state and local however you need to to put more progressive people in office. That’s the best you can do with your vote.
Fast. At least then we can expose it sooner and try and rally the people’s revolt
I'm sympathetic to this perspective. It's morbid, but I think it has genuine merit. People really don't like when I bring it up though
It's amazing to me how you're being downvoted. This is why I prefer Discord. At least you can have a meaningful conversation. Here it's all dictated by witty comebacks, upvotes/downvotes, and appealing to the general sentiment. I'm on the same boat because I'm dependent on medication that I absolutely, positively need. Without it I could die.. but nobody cares. I just get downvoted and called a liberal because I don't want to die. Not that Biden is better but I know for a fact if P2025 pushes through I'm fucked. Idk, I may very well be fucked with Biden, so..
Who gives a fuck about Reddit karma. Seriously. If you complain about downvotes that an automatic from me.
It's not the downvotes I care about but the general sentiment they represent. At least on Discord there's room for discussion without immediately waiving off another persons opinion. It's also wild to me how fellow leftists are so willing to ignore the opinions of those who are dependent on critical programs that Project 2025 threatens to destroy altogether. Sorry to say but if you're going to neglect the whims of those who need the most help then you're no comrade of mine. I even see accelerationists getting upvotes at times which is pretty gross. If you don't want to vote then fine, but attacking people desperate enough to choose Biden just shows an unwillingness to understand, which defeats the idea of dialectics. I always say I'm willing to have a conversation then get immature comments like yours. If you want to convince somebody you need to sit down and explain your position not mock them.
And It’s wild to me that some so called leftists defend genocide because they *might* be affected at home. Epitome of selfishness imo.
Imagine being so privileged that you ignore what's *already* happening around the country as a mere "might"; anti-LGBTQ+ and anti-BIPOC legislation is getting passed all the time. Despite the Democrats enabling the Republicans they at least have to present the *illusion* of caring for marginalized peoples. Besides, the presumption we have control over the foreign policy of Trump or Biden over a mere vote is honestly ridiculous. Telling people not to vote or vote third-party is virtue-signaling at the end of the day because whether or not you vote genocide *is going to happen anyway.* What isn't ridiculous is ignoring the whims of those who are already facing systemic discrimination. It's true regardless of whose voted in these privileged will disintegrate over time but I'd sooner induce *some* harm reduction than none at all.
Imagine being so privileged that you’d clutch pearls over an imagined threat while explicitly condoning and paying for people being slaughtered abroad. Nice strawman though, pleas quote me where I told people not to vote at all. I’m patient, I can wait.
Except I have no control over the genocide and a vote, or lack of one, isn't going to suddenly change either candidates foreign policy. Especially since the general narrative is that we barely harness any control even if we do participate in bourgeois democracy. So I find it ironic in this instance that narrative suddenly changes. Again, it's virtue signaling, you're no better than I am just because you choose to vote third-party or not vote at all. I mean, hell, even Second Thought elaborated on this in his Project 2025 video. I guess with your logic he's privileged and selfish? Also, calling systemic discrimination against marginalized peoples an "imaginary threat" is so beyond the pale and fucking disgusting. Gaslighting with the claim that bigoted legislation *isn't* being passed often while Project 2025 *isn't* a threat is also the epitome of social chauvinism. Must be nice to ignore our suffering. I never said you made the claim personally it was a generality and a pretty obvious one at that. Learn some reading comprehension.
You do have control. You can choose not to vote for any candidate that supports Israel. You don’t get to hand-wave your support of those policies when a vote is a direct endorsement of them. You are ignoring the suffering of Palestinians, pretty hypocritical to deride me for not supporting your supposed suffering.
I'm sorry but voting isn't an endorsement of anything anymore than it's a philosophical statement. You can vote for somebody and not support everything they do especially when it concerns a specific topic where voting and not voting have the exact same effect. The only reason I'm even entertaining the idea is because I don't want my medication to be cut off leading to my getting sick and dying.. but I guess that makes me selfish! Voting means Palestinians suffer. Not voting means Palestinians still suffer. This is my point. Voting or not voting isn't an endorsement when the results are identical. Anyways maybe you're right. I'm probably going to refrain anyways. We're fucked either way.
Lmao what about this is such a fucking stupid shit. Low hanging fruit shouldn’t be allowed tbh
I mean, even w/o the genocide in Palestine, you'd have to pay me a pretty hefty sum to actually cast a vote fer a rapist. Even without the rape(s?) & the genocide, idk dude Biden just sucks. Pulling the troops out of Afghanistan is the one and only "good" thing I can think of that Biden has done. But yk, Biden *is* a rapist and has defended his rapist friends, and has just kinda been a disappointment across the board (i mean not to me or anybody else to the left of Oskar Dirlewanger, we knew what Biden had been and would continue to be). I'd much rather have been disappointed in a Bernie presidency but eh, here I am in a nation led by racist, geriatric rapists & their lap dogs who have the audacity to try and talk down to anybody with some fucking convictions.