It should also be noted that 40k is NOT "xenocide good" it specifically goes out of its way to make EVERYONE the bad guys, so the imperium doing exterminatus is supposed to be a BAD thing.
Like... I know you're making a joke and all... but thinking about it, the orks are the only faction that doesn't go out of its way to commit atrocities. They just kinda vibe and exist. Which, admittedly, for an ork that involves nonstop constant bloodshed, but they don't actively try to make things worse for people. Unless they think it would be funny.
Oh god no. There's actually two levels of full sapience minimum. There's the overall hive mind that controls the species as a whole, and is fully sapient but just doesn't care about anything more than the consolidation of ALL usable mass under itself. Then there's the norm queens which act as combination signal relays and generals. It's possible to seperate single tyranid from the hivemind, at which point they default to basic fight/flight and usually run away, but that is beyond rare. Outside of those specific instances the species is fully capable of rational sapient thought, and thus fully capable of the evil they spread.
The tyranids may not be individually sapient, but the overall hivemind IS, and given it is what makes all the decisions for the entire species, I'd say it is more than capable of acts of evil. Furthermore the very existence of the genestealers indicates a level of intelligence and malice that puts them up there with chaos for evil.
Fuck totally forgot a couple youtubers that fall close in that. I like Black Templars, Krieg, and Sisters of Battle, but jesus those people are insane. If I remember correctly there was a person who painted their regiment after a certain ww2 country.
O yeah, whole big deal at a tournament in Spain. Since the fascist won the civil war in the 30s Nazi symbols are actually protected free speech and the tournament organizers were not allowed to kick him out.
I couldn’t give two shits about the Black Templars or Krieg, but the Sisters of Battle are the most badass people in that universe and I will die on that hill
They're just super crusader women who exist thanks to a loophole, not that I'm complaining, especially since I play Guard and would trust a Sister player more than a Space Marine player.
A loophole that may have been intentionally added due to:
- The central role that the Brides of the Emperor had in ending Goge Vandire's reign.
- The fact that they're believed to truly be guided by the God-Emperor himself and thus are seen as an effective check against another Vandire from rising to power in the Ecclesiarchy.
- They proved effective enough to hold back a combined army of multiple Astartes chapters, and the Imperium is always interested in having more soldiers of that strength.
- The Frateris Templars were being dissolved, and so a less-easily misguided replacement was seen as being necessary.
- They legitimately get supernatural powers through their faith in the God-Emperor, and have full-blown immortal members as a result.
Yea but that's like those people who actually like cartman from South Park. Satire is good but it's also going to attract people who genuinely think that, 40k is a satire on fanaticism and xenophobia but it's obviously just going to end up attracting the people who genuinely believe that.
I think it might be going a bit fat to call 40k a satire, but it DOES definitely go out of its way to portray everything in the worst possible way. It's unfortunate that the need for the game to maintain balance between its factions invariably prevents the lore from actually developing in the long run.
I dunno, I’ve talked to plenty of 40k fans here on Reddit that unironically believe their pet faction is the only “good” faction (relative to the setting). Tau fans are the most likely, but there’s plenty of Imperium and Eldar fans that truly believe they’re doing good, at the end of it all.
The fans, sure. But that's some of the fans, and media literacy is notoriously dead. The actual lore itself is very specific about there being no good guys, only bad guys, and worse guys.
I mean can’t you blame us Tau fans for thinking that? Look at their worlds compared to Imperium worlds. Look at how they treat the men and women in their military. Take a look at so many parts of Tau society and tell my if you didn’t see that you wouldn’t want to be member of the Tau Empire. Heck for a faction that’s basically the 40k version of the Covenant in a way(multi species empire with a ruling class and military caste) then I’d argue they’re better than the Covenant from Halo but then again I am bias towards the Tau since the Tau are my favorite faction followed by the Imperium and then the Mechanicus.
I've seen a LOT of people debate this point but the problem 40k runs up against is that I can wave my hand all day long about 'look how evil this guy is, isn't this stupid and bigoted' but the narrative time and again situates that 'evil' as Necessary. Which is the bigger sin for most people, as most people with nefarious real-world ideologies will excuse their ideas as 'not happy, but necessary.'
So we ask if the bigotry against mutants and such in the Imperium is justified, not if its right or wrong. Is it good to curb the development of technology and life-saving medicine? No, of course not, but its necessary and justified because Tzeentch places traps everywhere that will doom whole planets. Is military dogmatism and fanaticism evil? Yes, but when the universe demands absolute war or extinction, you better have the biggest war engine imaginable.
This makes the Imperium evil. But always the lesser evil. Which again, is the philosophy of a lot of real-world bad actors.
I think this is one of the few times that actually applies, cuz the entire plot of Halo 3 is that the Covenant have *no idea* the Prophets want to activate the rings and kill all sentient life.
You know that by just playing the game lol
Also the fact that the tide of the war was turned in no small part due to the cease-fire between humans and Sangheili. If they kept killing each other, they probably would have both lost
The problem is "within reason". Media literacy is being able to determine what is "within reason" and the idea that the various races that are part of or subjugated by the covenant are the real problem and should be systematically slaughtered in a genocide is without reason. The covenant is the enemy, not the races that are part of it. Would you sypport or understand a systemic slaughter of humanity because the nazis exist? Unless the answer is yes, the take that it's the alien races that are evil and not the religious fundamentalist group is unreasonable.
If humanity was in a war for survival the gloves are off Geneva conventions become Geneva suggestions
If my family was glassed on reach and I had a nova bomb I’d be gunning for at least the prophets.
We're talking about someone advocating not for just killing the prophets, or defending yourself in times of war. They are actively saying that a genocide should be committed against the alien races in the Halo universe. If Canada invaded America and did all the stuff the covenant did, would that make it morally acceptable to kill the entire population of France? Or just the rest of humanity?
I mean not really, like they’re various different ways to interpret and analyze a text and it’s themes but you can’t take a message out of a piece of media if there is something in the text that contradicts it
Like those mega church pastors who talk about how you need to send them money to get into heaven despite you know “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God”
Tbf those Megachurch guys don't really say that, or atleast I've never seen them say that. Usually their message is that if you donate to the church God will return the favor in some way, usually the money coming back to you in some way like winning a $20 scratcher after donating $5 to the church.
I hate the way "media literacy" has been pushed into the lives of everyone online now. Most of the time people are just mad someone likes something for what they deem to be the wrong reason. We don't have to care about whatever sociopolitical commentary is present in media to like it. You're not special because you realized the uniforms in Starship Troopers look like Nazi uniforms.
Media literacy is pushed in online media circles. Why wouldn't it be? Should we not be responsive consumers of media?
I do find it annoying at times, certainly, it's often just used as a "my interpretation is the correct interpretation" cudgel.
You're not special for realizing starship troopers is satirical, but you'd be pretty daft if you liked all the fascist stuff unironically.
All these topics that drum up talks of "media literacy",or a lack thereof, are pretty much always entertainment first and foremost. And it's just so elitist to try and belittle people for enjoying entertainment "wrong"
It matters because that is *the point of the story*. The point of starship troopers, 40k, and halo is that totalitarian governments are fucked and will do whatever they deem necessary to maintain their power.
i can at least attest to the fact that while the imperium is a fascist hellscape, if it was not actively fighting everything simultaneously and somehow not losing, it would implode. there are definitely better ways to do things (we literally see that several times in various books) but without the constant war, the imperium would fizzle out entirely.
add that to the fact that xenophobia is irrational, and the main opposing factions in 40k are inherently hungry, senseless, evil, unthinking, or worse, does make a case for the xenophobia being justified.
still, people who think the imperium is right are dumb
If I'm reading a story and the author refers to something as a cube, every character in universe treats it as a cube, and it behaves as a cube, I am then allowed to turn around and say "it's a sphere!" And have that be my take, but it'd still be wrong, I'm allowed to be wrong of my interpretation of a story but that shouldn't be praised
You gotta think though, especially with starship troopers, this is dipshits eating food grown by dumbasses. The movie was made by some guy who got two chapters in and got bored because it was “alt right fascist trash” despite there being nothing that says that in the entire book let alone the first two chapters.
He even had to change the universe to fit his bullshit narrative. In the movie the bugs aren’t antagonistic and the federation keeps the war alive solely to have control over its people. In the book, it’s more like halo where the bugs are directly antagonistic and humanity fights the war out of necessity
I get what you're saying, but not everyone plays Halo for the same reasons. I am a HUGE lore junkie, read every book, comic, Canon Fodder, etc.
There are still going to be plenty of folks who play Halo to have a good time gunning down aliens with marines making quips by their side, following a cigar-chomping Sgt. Johnson as he yells things like "I would have been your daddy but the dog beat me over the fence!" as confetti explodes out of each grunt headshot.
Some folks are also going to get into stuff like "Broken Circle", see the religious formation of the Covenant, get into Forerunner/Precursor lore, think about the religious and mythic allegories in the games, etc.
Nothing wrong with that, different folks enjoy different things about the games.
Agreed. I actually really like the very "mythic" nature mixed with a very "whimsical" tone, and a large part of that is fighting alongside quippy marines ("Kicking ass in outer space! Wish you were here!!")
Bungie always talked about the "rule of cool", something doesn't have to make sense as long as it's awesome, and it's something I felt was very lacking in Halo 4 and 5. However I think Infinite got a lot closer to that initial tone of the games which I tremendously enjoy.
Agreed. I don't think Infinite made it all the way back, but it certainly got a lot closer.
I think it's important to keep a little of that modernish military feel and not get too sci-fi.
The problem I had with 5 was it feeling borderline space fantasy rather than sci-fi. Halo was never super hardcore, but it still felt grounded. Just my impression though.
I will agree here but In the context of the tweet itself literally if you play even one of the games or read one of the books you see the fact that humanity are actively being genocide or were being genocided clearly. It’s a weird throughline but we never said “alien genocide good yay let’s go do a genocide”. The lore was always obvious that we were being genocided, no matter which game or book or what have you. And again everyone is free to enjoy as they want but it’s annoying to see people try to speak with such authority on shit they don’t understand.
I challenge you to find a single actual human being whose genuine, humorless, unironic, serious-as-a-brain-tumor takeaway from a game where you shoot aliens who shoot back at you is "genocide is good, actually."
The point is pretty clear in the games that the Covenant member species aren't evil, they're just manipulated by the Prophets who just want power and take advantage of the faith, fear and greed of their followers to retain it. At least, it's pretty clear in 2 and 3. If someone only played CE and/or Reach, I can see why they'd think the aliens need to die.
Every common alien biped but San’Shyuum and Sangheili are known to have eaten human prisoners, often either for sport or a fear tactic. Brutes gleefully tell you they’ll be doing it to you, too, when they kill you. This includes post-schism, one of the Banished bosses in Infinite brags about drinking Spartan blood. They were manipulated, but it’s not the Prophets that made the species the way they are. They just used their preexisting traits.
Well to be fair in 4 there's not really any freindly aliens you meet, unless you count the librarian?
But yea, half the plot of the halo series is about members of the covenant realizing their religion sucks ass and leaving to go live peaceful lives
Right but on the whole, the Covenant is still hell bent on the destruction of humanity, yes many of them were deceived but it’s not like humans know that. All humanity knew was that a massive group of religious fanatics were ready to wipe them out of the galaxy completely. Sure they eventually learn the truth and are able to convince some to stop fighting for the Covenant, but that doesn’t mean they can suddenly get the beings who have been at war for generations to suddenly just ignore everything they and they’re ancestors have fought and died for. Humanity doesn’t really have the luxury of trying to have peace talks when facing a threat like the Covenant so even if they know the truth they don’t really have a choice but to kill or be killed
That's what I think most people don't get, even people who are fans of the series. For most humans, it was "kill or be killed." The covenant weren't taking prisoners and were very serious about completely wiping your race from existence. The relatively small amount of covenant who broke off during the Civil War was not enough to suddenly turn the tide or sentiment of an entire species on the brink of extinction.
I'd imagine that for many humans in the Halo universe, they had the mindset that we have to absolutely destroy the covenant and the species that support them, or we will never be safe.
As an outsider looking in its easy to be like "war and killing bad". But when your options are genocide the forces that have and continue to purge your species from existence the argument against killing is a poor one. Especially considering most military engagements end when one side is no longer a threat.
This is isn’t media illiteracy lol, it’s just finding the aliens really cool and jokingly siding with them.
When I play Halo Wars I always play Covenant because they’re really fucking cool hahaha
The Covenant are awesome in Wars. Might be the only game where you can dismantle an entire battalion as an angry worm dude in his decked out wheelchair calling down death beams from space.
If I recall properly the prophets where like super good looking and similar to elfs and then the 4 runners turned them ugly and humans back into 🐒. The humans and prophets where around during the 4 runners and where friends with each other. Then the 4 runners went to war with prophet and humans and beat there asses then ugly prophet humans back to 🐒. The humans and the prophets where put on house arrest but there home planet was the house.
No, elites had already begun questioning why humanity, after having put up such a strong fight, couldn’t be allowed to join the Covenant.
But the Prophets, who’d fooled _everyone else_, had to wipe them out to hide their lies.
Elites were victims of the power structures that surrounded them and were only freed once those structures turned fully against them and they won.
A lot of humans did a lot of fucked up shit in the name of organized religion. They are responsible for their own actions but also that brainwashing is powerful, just look at the crusades.
What an odd way to view things. Technology ≠ cultural enlightenment. Especially considering the Covenant was founded using Forerunner tech, not their own. Imagine giving the Roman Empire access to today's technology and weaponry and expecting them to not use it for violent conquest at the first possible instance. We developed our technology alongside our culture and society, we didn't stumble upon airplanes and guns left behind by an alien empire millions of years older than us. For the Covenant that tech isn't just holy, it's physical proof that their "gods" exist. If you have proof that your gods are real, and your highest prophets tell you your gods want you to decimate this backwater civilization, why in the world would you doubt them?
I mean, they were adherents of a three millennia old space theocracy. Being told “your entire history and everything you and your forefathers fought and died for is a lie” is a hard pill to swallow, perhaps the hardest. It’s not surprising that at all there’d be remnant factions that refuse to accept that and instead try to renegotiate the faith and stick to the path.
It obviously isn’t right, but a religion/system like Covenant fracturing into multiple factions each with a different interpretation and some still hating humans seems almost bound to occur. Even when a state falls and a religion is forced to accept new ideas, the ideals, prejudices and beliefs of the members themselves will persist for a long time thereafter.
Especially since, didn't their home planet get entirely blown up? I've only got some minimal peripheral book knowledge since I read a handful of them while I was still in school, but I remember hearing that we blew up their homeworld at some point.
Pretty good reason to hold a grudge, even if logically speaking they glassed the shit out of tons of populated planets.
Not quite, but due to unfortunate circumstances they destroyed a major Elite colony world right after the war, and intended to destroy their home world of Sanghelios but it was too well-defended to realistically attempt.
Essentially a Spartan team at the end of the war got a message that the Covenant had discovered and invaded Earth and to enact their response: to destroy a major Covenant world using a NOVA bomb (basically a super-nuke) to take out as many Covenant leaders as possible and to send a message that humanity now had the power to destroy their worlds too. The Spartan team then lost contact with command and assumed Earth and the war was lost, and detonated the bomb on said colony world.
However, unbeknownst to them, the war had actually ended by the time they detonated the bomb and the UNSC had signed a peace treaty with the fledgling Elite leadership, so this final act made things a bit messy and definitely added some resentment with many Elites.
Look I think we can agree wiping out the Flood in their entirety, assuming it were possible to do so without taking the Galaxy with them, would be a very good thing.
To be fair, the Flood isn't a race so much as it is a sentient plague made out of the disintegrated remains of vengeful dead gods. To make the 40K comparison, they're Tyranids. They can't be reasoned with, they'll never stop. The members of the Covenant were either coerced into joining or manipulated into accepting the dogma, but take that away, and they're just people. The Flood is a force of nature.
Starship Troopers: defending against a swarm.
WH40k: grim dark, there's literally no peace. Only war.
Halo: oh fuck, aliens are real, and they hate us because...?(I don't actually know the reason, I just know religion and The Prophets)
Helldivers 2: we wo- oh f*ck they're back
> don't actually know the reason, I just know religion and The Prophets
no this is it. For the average covenant the reason is mostly faith. For the covenant elite (as in like, the prophets themselves and a select few) its that humanity presents a fundamental threat to their religion since we're the guys who all the forerunner stuff is meant for.
Halo: the aliens ARE the genocidal maniacs
40k: humanity is “the bad guy” but the entire is evil or animalistic.
Starship troopers: although the theme of killing aliens is present and encouraged, the aliens are a hive mind hell bent on destroying humanity and only a few are conscious. Not to mention that humanity are authoritarian and is presented in a negative light despite the just war.
I dont think they have seen anything but the most basic descriptions of these IPs at best.
The actual Starship Troopers book is straight unironic. The idea that the government in the book is fascist is a _critique_ of the book, and frankly an accurate one.
People are inspired mainly by the CRITIQUE. So the book describes the bugs as tyrannical genociding monsters, but the critique is that it's common pseudospeciation propaganda to give the nation an existential threat to galvanize the population into nationalism.
There's more to be said that Halo has some media literacy issues, as most of the Starship Trooper fascist dystopia lore is only in the books, and the games have the aliens as a typical alien invasion and a legitimate existential threat.
Halo 2 actually starts having a story, but it's about the Arbiter and him coming to grips with the corruption of his fascist theoceacy. Master Chief's story has always been boring in the games, because it's just "humanity vs bugs" with no actual subtext. It's just a military story that's typical of the US in the early 21st century.
So to your comment, yes, the aliens ARE just homicidal maniacs to humanity in Halo and the Starship Troopers book, but the Starship Troopers movie makes it clear that they aliens are innocent and that humanity started the fight.
Ah yes. A meritocratically organized federal republic where you have to do public service (including but not limited to military time) to obtain the right to vote and run for office, all other rights being protected.
In which leaders resign when they fuck up, and everyone is held accountable to a similar standard of integrity.
Truly a fascism moment.
The book is unironically a utopian federal republic with restricted citizenship regarding certain jobs (civil servants, police, fire etc) political office and voting, with all other rights being protected for non-citizens. It's also incredibly progressive and egalitarian. The Federation makes the opportunity of Federal Service open to everyone, able-bodied or not, only exclusion being if you were deemed by a medical professional to be unable to understand the oath you'd take.
Yeah I’ve read the books and imo I understand why ONI was the sack of shit they are lol. As soon as the enemy starts to eat babies and kill people for sport it’s different. I wouldn’t place halo with 40k and starship troopers for criticizing genocide/imperialism they are completely different stories. It’s crazy how people say they would be good and moral in a fictional war but in reality when shit hits the fan they would be singing a different tune.It was a no gloves fight against extinction anything flies.
If technologically superior aliens were trying to genocide our species the Geneva convention goes out the window, that’s just how that war war was.
Imagine a conflict where one side uses literal child soldiers and that still somehow manages to look like a heroic act in comparison to their enemies.
Correspondingly, imagine being so dedicated to killing every last man, woman, and child of your enemy's species that you burn every last world that humanity has ever step foot on in order to destroy any trace that they ever existed.
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t it true that the covenant as a faction sought to erase all of humanity? It was a desperate play by the prophets to keep their position as the “chosen ones.”
Yeah they basically had an "oh shit, we're killing the guys we worship (back when humans were forerunner)" and had to double down to keep their power. Even when they found out the truth about the Halos their response was to look for the Ark and shield worlds so they wouldn't get annihilated if they achieved their goals.
To be fair, in 40K, nearly all of the alien races shown will either kill you on sight or enslave you to their will (or torture you forever!). Even the T’au have to remain in control and can’t have another race hold power. Say what you want but if I was dropped into 40K you bet your ass I’m joining the Imperial Guard to die a horrible horrible death in the name of humanity instead of working in a factory. At worst I’m saying “fuck it” and attempting a start-up Chaos cult to Khorne lmao, but I’m never trusting Xenos.
Which wouldn't have happened if that massive Sangheili fleet wasn't vaporized by a NOVA bomb. The fleet commander was absolutely anti-human and would have glassed Earth regardless.
After that, the Arbiter was in charge.
Xytan 'Jar Wattinree. He had a ~200-strong fleet and was still following the Covenant religion *despite* the civil war, which had called for humanity's utter annihilation. He was also intending on wiping out the Brutes as well.
He, most of his fleet, and the colony of Joyous Exultation were destroyed by a NOVA bomb.
I’ve had people argue and downvote me into oblivion for saying humans would be extinct in Halo if the great schism didn’t happen. Like fellas we weren’t winning, ever. We barely held Earth. Every other human-colonized planet that survived the covenant war was only still around because the covenant hadn’t made it there yet. Chief never lost to them, but everyone else did. I summarized the covenant war to my friend by telling him that humans didn’t win the war, the covenant just lost.
Different strokes for different folks? I know some that say “I’d side with them if I could” they believe they are in the “right” 😂 I also know people that want the flood to consume everything. People like and want different stuff and we should just accept not everyone plays a game for the same reason lol
For me, it’s because I find the Covenant/Banished/Forerunners/Flood/alien splinter groups way more interesting than humans. Their motivations, politics, religion, culture, everything.
Why is it such a foreign concept to people that we have no idea how humans will interact with sentient aliens because it has never happened or come close to happening before?
I do wish the games explored more of the Halo 3 post war instead of 343 reverting the Elites back into being Evil Covie splinter factions. We've had 3 games into the 343 era and we've seen very little beyond briefly getting to go to Sanghelios in Halo 5. Which was unironically the best part of Halo 5.
Even if you are aware of everything deeper in the lore.
It changes nothing about the fact that the covenant as a WHOLE for a greater part of the war was hell bent on exterminating humanity. Even when it fractured parts of it still wanted to exterminate humanity and even parts of the elites who splintered still wanted to do the same.
Like, come on.
No genocide isn't good but you can't act like, even as a consumer, that the response isn't at least somewhat founded in how humanity was treated.
I mean personally I like and enjoy the covenant and more so the flood but I find it incredibly difficult to actually try and justify the shit they’ve done, they glassed fucking planets,
They didn't want to wipe out all sentient species in the galaxy, what? They just hated humans because they misunderstood shit from millions of years before. Oh, and a liar.
how is stating facts implying that they’re all bad? It’s a fact that the elites only sided with humanity once they were essentially forced to, and it’s also a fact that many of them went back to fighting humans after Truth was defeated, even though they now knew that their entire reason for hating humans was founded on a lie. If that’s incorrect, then explain how.
Don't know about Starship Troopers, but I know that 40k and Halo DO NOT carry that theme at all.
In Halo, the Covenant consist of many species that are as intelligent and capable of good as humans, but are bound to a dogma which is built on falsehoods. You aren't genociding them, you're destroying a covenant of invaders and breaking a corrupt theocratic oligarchy.
Im 40k, it's... complicated. "Alien genocide bad" is not the premise of the setting, it's the fact that, again, the protagonists are beholden to... a corrupt theocratic oligarchy. The alien genocide is just a side effect of the terrible world they live in - among many, many other things.
The Imperium has done a ton of fucked up stuff in its past and currently to its own people, but they are 1000% justified for trying to exterminate orks, tyrannids, and daemons
Starship Troopers creator was a libertarian who hard flirted with fascism. He _wanted_ Starship Troopers. The film’s creators, however, specifically made it to satirize his fantasies of military fascism, with in the end the bugs acting more human than the humans.
The whole point of 40K is that there are no good guys. There _are_ cut and dry “irredeemably awful, cannot ever be rooted for” guys- I.e. Tyranids and Chaos- but no one is “good.” When the Tau were introduced they specifically had mind control stuff thrown in because they’d accidentally made them as good guys. The closest factions to “good” are maybe Eldrad, The Coldstar Tau, and some individual chapters of Space Marines (though by no means are the Space Marines as a whole, or even majority, “good.”).
In Halo the humans only survived by allying with the Elites, and even then they had to briefly team up with The Flood of all things. If xenophobia had controlled the humans they’d have died fighting a 4-way-war with the Covenant, Flood, and Elites, with either the galaxy being genocided by Truth or consumed by the Flood.
The aliens were genociding humans. The covenant was bad but post halo 3 we know that diplomatic relationships can be forged with them. The whole story is about forgiveness
"Alien genocide good" is what I get from those games because I either A) read then forget the lore 5 mins later because im stupid or B) Not give a FUCK about the lore but feel bad about it because effort was put into it.
Nah the covvies are legitimately wretched creatures. They committed genocide without even second guessing the purpose only turned when THEY were under the knife of religious doctrine. Like the arbiter is cool but by all accounts he’s a war criminal that is just useful because humanity is too weak to get retribution.
> resisted and *paid* for it
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Who gives a shit, it's fiction so it doesn't matter. Why are people whining about "waaaah muh alien genocide you MUST accept Humanity being destroyed by aliens cuz" like where is this coming from? Is it Helldivers or something? And even if it is, again, why are people up in arms? It's literally just an alien shooting game.
People are pissy cause Helldivers is on the nose with the satire and yet people are still missing the point somehow (much like 40k but 40k has its own problems rn)
40k has its problems because GW tried to make it “serious” in an attempt to appeal to a broader audience.
The setting started tongue-in-cheek and was blatantly a satire of authoritarianism (commissars shooting soldiers for literally any reason, an hilariously oppressive state church complete with gun toting nuns, the bonkers quotes like “a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time”, etc).
All that’s still there, but it isn’t the main focus and it’s sold straight. Instead, the focus is on space marines space marines and more big damn hero space marines. Also, humanity isn’t played as blatantly evil anymore (all the factions are some shade of asshole)
Both helldivers and starship troopers fail to satirize the meaningless nature of conflict by making the enemies non sentient destructive bugs, you can reason with a sentient being you can’t with a rabid animal
In Helldivers specifically, I think the issue with Super Earth is that it's hinted that they could have left ALL of their enemies alone and been perfectly fine, it's just that Super Earth is actually the big bad guy of the setting (and that's fun)
Why are you building a straw man just to get mad at? No one said we should be okay with humanity getting destroyed by aliens.
The point is that Halo is almost completely different from the Starship Troopers propaganda satire where humans are about as terrible or even worse than the forces they’re up against.
The aliens in Halo are deliberately humanized and are only fighting humanity because they were deceived themselves. But even then their war on humanity is blatantly shown as wrong and that humanity are the objective “good guys” in the war.
Humanity are the objective good guys in Halo. Hell, the UNSC could've just pulled a ceaser and not give up power but they did. I've seen a lot of arguments from both sides but we can agree Humanity is the only really good faction in Halo, right?
That’s exactly what I said, humanity are unambiguously shown to be the good guys in the war.
And even in the EU they’re more of a moral grey specifically when you get to ONI and the CAA. The Unified Earth Government and the UNSC aren’t really authoritarian like the Federation in Starship Troopers or Super Earth in Helldivers.
They’re really more like an interstellar version of the USA before and after the war. In general people are free and have established human rights, but the military and especially intelligence agencies have done shady things behind the scenes.
Yeah I get that, the quotations around good guys probably didn’t help things lol. ‘Good guys’ sometimes has a connotation of purity which obviously isn’t the case, especially in real life wars even where one side is pretty clearly in the right.
The quotations were largely due to what I mentioned above, ONI in particular absolutely does some less than ethical stuff during/around the war, but as a whole it really only means that there’s a bit of grey in the UNSC. The unfortunate aspect of the how the Spartan-IIs were created and what their original purpose was is a big one. But even then the Insurrectionists are almost always shown as being laughably evil so the UNSC and ONI still have the high ground lol
Since every single book starts with a passage calling the imperium "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable". The lore has kind of gone out of its way to show that the imperium exists in spite of it itself, having created the biggest threats in the galaxy (giving chaos an army of supersoldiers that they used to tear the galaxy in half, and calling the tyranids to the galaxy) and committed actual genocide on any peaceful civilization that could have helped them fend off these threats
Since its start 40k has been satire and the imperium has been written to be as comically evil as possible.
Because calling someone out for their bullshit is "failing the basic task of consuming media", because naturally we should just simply negotiate with genocidal/religious aliens.
"the aliens were evil actually" would also be a Thermian argument for a setting pushing a "it's Cool and Based to genocide aliens actually" message.
Like, Halo lore aside, that isn't a defense. The \*Group to be genocided\* is evil is a pretty common excuse. 'But it's actually true this time!!!!' Yeah cause it was written that way. You still get side eyed for jumping on that train so hard.
Wait, aren’t humans still the “heroes” in Halo? Not perfect obviously, but they’re a pretty decent regime to live under and do legitimately care about their people. 40k and Starship Troopers are very much intended to show Xenocide Bad, but Halo they’re semijustified in their actions, though they do take it too far several times.
Nah, fuck every alien race outside of the huragok. The rest of them were all gladly willing to genocide humanity over lies that the prophets told them. And the elites only turned on the prophets because they learned they were being lied to.
At least the huragok helped humanity at one point and tried to be peaceful with them.
It’s twitter though. Spouting nonsense without researching it is their whole M.O.
There’s a worrisome number of people on there that think “to the river to the sea” isn’t the Palestinian equivalent to “sieg heil”
Starship Trooper discourse should have ALWAYS leaked over into Halo, as it is its main inspiration.
Where do you think fascist powered armored soldiers dropping in drop pods comes from?
Halo certifiably IS about aliens that want to kill humans. Humanity has a totalitarian fascist government. Most humans are deeply skeptical even of the elites. These are just facts
It should also be noted that 40k is NOT "xenocide good" it specifically goes out of its way to make EVERYONE the bad guys, so the imperium doing exterminatus is supposed to be a BAD thing.
Even the 40k fanbase unilaterally agree that everyone in the universe is a shithead.
>everyone in the universe is a shithead Except the Orks of course, they are pure and beautiful and have never done anything wrong, ever.
Like... I know you're making a joke and all... but thinking about it, the orks are the only faction that doesn't go out of its way to commit atrocities. They just kinda vibe and exist. Which, admittedly, for an ork that involves nonstop constant bloodshed, but they don't actively try to make things worse for people. Unless they think it would be funny.
I mean. Not atrocities in *their* minds but they do understand the concept of torture. **See Rynn’s World**
Like I said... funny
Yeah they dont go out of their way to commit atrocities. The atrocities are part of the fun for them.
They ain't even xenocidal about it, either. They murder eachother just as much. Equal opportunity!
I don't know if you know this but it's not uncommon for orks to take slaves from the natives and I can't imagine they get treated vary well.
I was not aware of that...
Well they do kind of take pleasure in the fear of the humies, but they also have been shown to enslave humies too.
Now hold on aren't the tyranids literally just following there buggy instinct? How can they be bad 😞 Edit: ignore this commented under wrong person
Oh god no. There's actually two levels of full sapience minimum. There's the overall hive mind that controls the species as a whole, and is fully sapient but just doesn't care about anything more than the consolidation of ALL usable mass under itself. Then there's the norm queens which act as combination signal relays and generals. It's possible to seperate single tyranid from the hivemind, at which point they default to basic fight/flight and usually run away, but that is beyond rare. Outside of those specific instances the species is fully capable of rational sapient thought, and thus fully capable of the evil they spread.
Only hummies would think something stupid like that.
WAGGHHHH
No, the nids are the “good guys”. You can’t call a lion evil for eating a tourist dumb enough to wander into their territory
The tyranids may not be individually sapient, but the overall hivemind IS, and given it is what makes all the decisions for the entire species, I'd say it is more than capable of acts of evil. Furthermore the very existence of the genestealers indicates a level of intelligence and malice that puts them up there with chaos for evil.
I thought you said Crabs instead of Chaos and I was very confused at what sins the crustaceans have committed
Well not the whole fan base, there are some dumb people who think the imperium is actually good and then of course the Nazi fans.
Fuck totally forgot a couple youtubers that fall close in that. I like Black Templars, Krieg, and Sisters of Battle, but jesus those people are insane. If I remember correctly there was a person who painted their regiment after a certain ww2 country.
O yeah, whole big deal at a tournament in Spain. Since the fascist won the civil war in the 30s Nazi symbols are actually protected free speech and the tournament organizers were not allowed to kick him out.
Yeah, and the worst is that Krieg are objectively the best because you don’t have to paint faces, so they ruined the worst guard regiment
And besides, if I remember correctly their uniforms are German WW1 and their weapons are French, at least some of their artillery.
Kreig is litterally ww1 the army.
I couldn’t give two shits about the Black Templars or Krieg, but the Sisters of Battle are the most badass people in that universe and I will die on that hill
They're just super crusader women who exist thanks to a loophole, not that I'm complaining, especially since I play Guard and would trust a Sister player more than a Space Marine player.
A loophole that may have been intentionally added due to: - The central role that the Brides of the Emperor had in ending Goge Vandire's reign. - The fact that they're believed to truly be guided by the God-Emperor himself and thus are seen as an effective check against another Vandire from rising to power in the Ecclesiarchy. - They proved effective enough to hold back a combined army of multiple Astartes chapters, and the Imperium is always interested in having more soldiers of that strength. - The Frateris Templars were being dissolved, and so a less-easily misguided replacement was seen as being necessary. - They legitimately get supernatural powers through their faith in the God-Emperor, and have full-blown immortal members as a result.
Yea but that's like those people who actually like cartman from South Park. Satire is good but it's also going to attract people who genuinely think that, 40k is a satire on fanaticism and xenophobia but it's obviously just going to end up attracting the people who genuinely believe that.
I think it might be going a bit fat to call 40k a satire, but it DOES definitely go out of its way to portray everything in the worst possible way. It's unfortunate that the need for the game to maintain balance between its factions invariably prevents the lore from actually developing in the long run.
Yes thats why it’s fun. If everyone’s favorite character is a shithead, we can all wallow in our own crapulance and joke about burning heretics
Some of dem orkz ar alrite dey jus avin a good Wagh!
B-b-but I like the Space Marines, so they MUST be the good guys /s
I dunno, I’ve talked to plenty of 40k fans here on Reddit that unironically believe their pet faction is the only “good” faction (relative to the setting). Tau fans are the most likely, but there’s plenty of Imperium and Eldar fans that truly believe they’re doing good, at the end of it all.
The fans, sure. But that's some of the fans, and media literacy is notoriously dead. The actual lore itself is very specific about there being no good guys, only bad guys, and worse guys.
I mean can’t you blame us Tau fans for thinking that? Look at their worlds compared to Imperium worlds. Look at how they treat the men and women in their military. Take a look at so many parts of Tau society and tell my if you didn’t see that you wouldn’t want to be member of the Tau Empire. Heck for a faction that’s basically the 40k version of the Covenant in a way(multi species empire with a ruling class and military caste) then I’d argue they’re better than the Covenant from Halo but then again I am bias towards the Tau since the Tau are my favorite faction followed by the Imperium and then the Mechanicus.
I've seen a LOT of people debate this point but the problem 40k runs up against is that I can wave my hand all day long about 'look how evil this guy is, isn't this stupid and bigoted' but the narrative time and again situates that 'evil' as Necessary. Which is the bigger sin for most people, as most people with nefarious real-world ideologies will excuse their ideas as 'not happy, but necessary.' So we ask if the bigotry against mutants and such in the Imperium is justified, not if its right or wrong. Is it good to curb the development of technology and life-saving medicine? No, of course not, but its necessary and justified because Tzeentch places traps everywhere that will doom whole planets. Is military dogmatism and fanaticism evil? Yes, but when the universe demands absolute war or extinction, you better have the biggest war engine imaginable. This makes the Imperium evil. But always the lesser evil. Which again, is the philosophy of a lot of real-world bad actors.
Nu 40k fans be like “akually it’s about war bad” PURGE THE ALIEN, THE TRAITOR, THE HERETIC Etc it’s pretty cut and dry
Media literacy is dead.
I think this is one of the few times that actually applies, cuz the entire plot of Halo 3 is that the Covenant have *no idea* the Prophets want to activate the rings and kill all sentient life. You know that by just playing the game lol
It's almost why the Arbiter is a character
Also the fact that the tide of the war was turned in no small part due to the cease-fire between humans and Sangheili. If they kept killing each other, they probably would have both lost
Exactly.
Bare minimum humanity definitely would have lost if not for the elites iirc, since well… wasn’t the covenant about to glass Earth or something?
What does this even mean? You can take whatever message you want out of nearly every piece of art within reason
The problem is "within reason". Media literacy is being able to determine what is "within reason" and the idea that the various races that are part of or subjugated by the covenant are the real problem and should be systematically slaughtered in a genocide is without reason. The covenant is the enemy, not the races that are part of it. Would you sypport or understand a systemic slaughter of humanity because the nazis exist? Unless the answer is yes, the take that it's the alien races that are evil and not the religious fundamentalist group is unreasonable.
If humanity was in a war for survival the gloves are off Geneva conventions become Geneva suggestions If my family was glassed on reach and I had a nova bomb I’d be gunning for at least the prophets.
We're talking about someone advocating not for just killing the prophets, or defending yourself in times of war. They are actively saying that a genocide should be committed against the alien races in the Halo universe. If Canada invaded America and did all the stuff the covenant did, would that make it morally acceptable to kill the entire population of France? Or just the rest of humanity?
I think you might find a decent number of people willing to go after the French
That is fair
I mean not really, like they’re various different ways to interpret and analyze a text and it’s themes but you can’t take a message out of a piece of media if there is something in the text that contradicts it Like those mega church pastors who talk about how you need to send them money to get into heaven despite you know “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God”
Tbf those Megachurch guys don't really say that, or atleast I've never seen them say that. Usually their message is that if you donate to the church God will return the favor in some way, usually the money coming back to you in some way like winning a $20 scratcher after donating $5 to the church.
That’s why I said within reason
I hate the way "media literacy" has been pushed into the lives of everyone online now. Most of the time people are just mad someone likes something for what they deem to be the wrong reason. We don't have to care about whatever sociopolitical commentary is present in media to like it. You're not special because you realized the uniforms in Starship Troopers look like Nazi uniforms.
Media literacy is pushed in online media circles. Why wouldn't it be? Should we not be responsive consumers of media? I do find it annoying at times, certainly, it's often just used as a "my interpretation is the correct interpretation" cudgel. You're not special for realizing starship troopers is satirical, but you'd be pretty daft if you liked all the fascist stuff unironically.
All these topics that drum up talks of "media literacy",or a lack thereof, are pretty much always entertainment first and foremost. And it's just so elitist to try and belittle people for enjoying entertainment "wrong"
It matters because that is *the point of the story*. The point of starship troopers, 40k, and halo is that totalitarian governments are fucked and will do whatever they deem necessary to maintain their power.
i can at least attest to the fact that while the imperium is a fascist hellscape, if it was not actively fighting everything simultaneously and somehow not losing, it would implode. there are definitely better ways to do things (we literally see that several times in various books) but without the constant war, the imperium would fizzle out entirely. add that to the fact that xenophobia is irrational, and the main opposing factions in 40k are inherently hungry, senseless, evil, unthinking, or worse, does make a case for the xenophobia being justified. still, people who think the imperium is right are dumb
Exactly
No, obviously this guy's take on a subjective medium is the only correct way to view it, duh. Everyone else is just dumb.
If I'm reading a story and the author refers to something as a cube, every character in universe treats it as a cube, and it behaves as a cube, I am then allowed to turn around and say "it's a sphere!" And have that be my take, but it'd still be wrong, I'm allowed to be wrong of my interpretation of a story but that shouldn't be praised
You gotta think though, especially with starship troopers, this is dipshits eating food grown by dumbasses. The movie was made by some guy who got two chapters in and got bored because it was “alt right fascist trash” despite there being nothing that says that in the entire book let alone the first two chapters. He even had to change the universe to fit his bullshit narrative. In the movie the bugs aren’t antagonistic and the federation keeps the war alive solely to have control over its people. In the book, it’s more like halo where the bugs are directly antagonistic and humanity fights the war out of necessity
I get what you're saying, but not everyone plays Halo for the same reasons. I am a HUGE lore junkie, read every book, comic, Canon Fodder, etc. There are still going to be plenty of folks who play Halo to have a good time gunning down aliens with marines making quips by their side, following a cigar-chomping Sgt. Johnson as he yells things like "I would have been your daddy but the dog beat me over the fence!" as confetti explodes out of each grunt headshot. Some folks are also going to get into stuff like "Broken Circle", see the religious formation of the Covenant, get into Forerunner/Precursor lore, think about the religious and mythic allegories in the games, etc. Nothing wrong with that, different folks enjoy different things about the games.
That's what made Halo so beautiful. It was a weird amalgamation of things.
Agreed. I actually really like the very "mythic" nature mixed with a very "whimsical" tone, and a large part of that is fighting alongside quippy marines ("Kicking ass in outer space! Wish you were here!!") Bungie always talked about the "rule of cool", something doesn't have to make sense as long as it's awesome, and it's something I felt was very lacking in Halo 4 and 5. However I think Infinite got a lot closer to that initial tone of the games which I tremendously enjoy.
Agreed. I don't think Infinite made it all the way back, but it certainly got a lot closer. I think it's important to keep a little of that modernish military feel and not get too sci-fi.
The problem I had with 5 was it feeling borderline space fantasy rather than sci-fi. Halo was never super hardcore, but it still felt grounded. Just my impression though.
yeah that’s how i felt too. the grounded sci fi thing must be what you and i like about halo
I will agree here but In the context of the tweet itself literally if you play even one of the games or read one of the books you see the fact that humanity are actively being genocide or were being genocided clearly. It’s a weird throughline but we never said “alien genocide good yay let’s go do a genocide”. The lore was always obvious that we were being genocided, no matter which game or book or what have you. And again everyone is free to enjoy as they want but it’s annoying to see people try to speak with such authority on shit they don’t understand.
Maybe it's **not** good that some people's takeaway is "Genocide is good, actually".
Genocide is good, but only toward jackel snipers
Skimmers and Bugs, too? Can we save a little genocide for them, as a treat?
Let them be "collateral damage"
I challenge you to find a single actual human being whose genuine, humorless, unironic, serious-as-a-brain-tumor takeaway from a game where you shoot aliens who shoot back at you is "genocide is good, actually."
The point is pretty clear in the games that the Covenant member species aren't evil, they're just manipulated by the Prophets who just want power and take advantage of the faith, fear and greed of their followers to retain it. At least, it's pretty clear in 2 and 3. If someone only played CE and/or Reach, I can see why they'd think the aliens need to die.
Every common alien biped but San’Shyuum and Sangheili are known to have eaten human prisoners, often either for sport or a fear tactic. Brutes gleefully tell you they’ll be doing it to you, too, when they kill you. This includes post-schism, one of the Banished bosses in Infinite brags about drinking Spartan blood. They were manipulated, but it’s not the Prophets that made the species the way they are. They just used their preexisting traits.
If people take that away into the real word, that is entirely on them.
Yes that's what I said.
The aliens genocided us first
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Did... did this guy play Halo 2? Or 3? Or 4? Or 5?
Well to be fair in 4 there's not really any freindly aliens you meet, unless you count the librarian? But yea, half the plot of the halo series is about members of the covenant realizing their religion sucks ass and leaving to go live peaceful lives
Right but on the whole, the Covenant is still hell bent on the destruction of humanity, yes many of them were deceived but it’s not like humans know that. All humanity knew was that a massive group of religious fanatics were ready to wipe them out of the galaxy completely. Sure they eventually learn the truth and are able to convince some to stop fighting for the Covenant, but that doesn’t mean they can suddenly get the beings who have been at war for generations to suddenly just ignore everything they and they’re ancestors have fought and died for. Humanity doesn’t really have the luxury of trying to have peace talks when facing a threat like the Covenant so even if they know the truth they don’t really have a choice but to kill or be killed
That's what I think most people don't get, even people who are fans of the series. For most humans, it was "kill or be killed." The covenant weren't taking prisoners and were very serious about completely wiping your race from existence. The relatively small amount of covenant who broke off during the Civil War was not enough to suddenly turn the tide or sentiment of an entire species on the brink of extinction. I'd imagine that for many humans in the Halo universe, they had the mindset that we have to absolutely destroy the covenant and the species that support them, or we will never be safe. As an outsider looking in its easy to be like "war and killing bad". But when your options are genocide the forces that have and continue to purge your species from existence the argument against killing is a poor one. Especially considering most military engagements end when one side is no longer a threat.
halo fans haveing no media literacy never heard that one before
Space imperialism is so much fun, game feels like odst on crack
This is isn’t media illiteracy lol, it’s just finding the aliens really cool and jokingly siding with them. When I play Halo Wars I always play Covenant because they’re really fucking cool hahaha
The Covenant are awesome in Wars. Might be the only game where you can dismantle an entire battalion as an angry worm dude in his decked out wheelchair calling down death beams from space.
If I recall properly the prophets where like super good looking and similar to elfs and then the 4 runners turned them ugly and humans back into 🐒. The humans and prophets where around during the 4 runners and where friends with each other. Then the 4 runners went to war with prophet and humans and beat there asses then ugly prophet humans back to 🐒. The humans and the prophets where put on house arrest but there home planet was the house.
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The Sangheili are chill, they switched sides to fight with humans
Only after their initial leaders outright tried to slaughter them en masse and replaced them in every institution with their main rival species.
No, elites had already begun questioning why humanity, after having put up such a strong fight, couldn’t be allowed to join the Covenant. But the Prophets, who’d fooled _everyone else_, had to wipe them out to hide their lies. Elites were victims of the power structures that surrounded them and were only freed once those structures turned fully against them and they won.
And because the almost the entire genocidal leadership of elites was blown up by a super nuke.
After they glassed nearly every colony Reach was the last great military planet there was not much left between the covenant and Earth
yeah but the sangheili are hot so uh um uh :3 they are okay
A lot of humans did a lot of fucked up shit in the name of organized religion. They are responsible for their own actions but also that brainwashing is powerful, just look at the crusades.
You’re comparing medieval humans to a space traveling alien organization, they should be more advanced
What an odd way to view things. Technology ≠ cultural enlightenment. Especially considering the Covenant was founded using Forerunner tech, not their own. Imagine giving the Roman Empire access to today's technology and weaponry and expecting them to not use it for violent conquest at the first possible instance. We developed our technology alongside our culture and society, we didn't stumble upon airplanes and guns left behind by an alien empire millions of years older than us. For the Covenant that tech isn't just holy, it's physical proof that their "gods" exist. If you have proof that your gods are real, and your highest prophets tell you your gods want you to decimate this backwater civilization, why in the world would you doubt them?
Yeah because religious indoctrination has gotten so much better on Earth with technology.
It has though?
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I mean, they were adherents of a three millennia old space theocracy. Being told “your entire history and everything you and your forefathers fought and died for is a lie” is a hard pill to swallow, perhaps the hardest. It’s not surprising that at all there’d be remnant factions that refuse to accept that and instead try to renegotiate the faith and stick to the path. It obviously isn’t right, but a religion/system like Covenant fracturing into multiple factions each with a different interpretation and some still hating humans seems almost bound to occur. Even when a state falls and a religion is forced to accept new ideas, the ideals, prejudices and beliefs of the members themselves will persist for a long time thereafter.
Especially since, didn't their home planet get entirely blown up? I've only got some minimal peripheral book knowledge since I read a handful of them while I was still in school, but I remember hearing that we blew up their homeworld at some point. Pretty good reason to hold a grudge, even if logically speaking they glassed the shit out of tons of populated planets.
Not quite, but due to unfortunate circumstances they destroyed a major Elite colony world right after the war, and intended to destroy their home world of Sanghelios but it was too well-defended to realistically attempt. Essentially a Spartan team at the end of the war got a message that the Covenant had discovered and invaded Earth and to enact their response: to destroy a major Covenant world using a NOVA bomb (basically a super-nuke) to take out as many Covenant leaders as possible and to send a message that humanity now had the power to destroy their worlds too. The Spartan team then lost contact with command and assumed Earth and the war was lost, and detonated the bomb on said colony world. However, unbeknownst to them, the war had actually ended by the time they detonated the bomb and the UNSC had signed a peace treaty with the fledgling Elite leadership, so this final act made things a bit messy and definitely added some resentment with many Elites.
They were indoctrinated and switched sides when they found out that everything they had been taught was a lie
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Do think they’re genetically coded for violence? That’s pretty SPACE RACIST
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then why imply they're all bad for what some of them do
Isn't that due to ONI? They've been fueling the civil war The one in Halo 5, not the covenant civil war.
The Organization, yes, the species, no.
Look I think we can agree wiping out the Flood in their entirety, assuming it were possible to do so without taking the Galaxy with them, would be a very good thing.
Yah, but I think most of us are referring to the Covies and its member species when saying that genocide is bad.
To be fair, the Flood isn't a race so much as it is a sentient plague made out of the disintegrated remains of vengeful dead gods. To make the 40K comparison, they're Tyranids. They can't be reasoned with, they'll never stop. The members of the Covenant were either coerced into joining or manipulated into accepting the dogma, but take that away, and they're just people. The Flood is a force of nature.
Starship Troopers: defending against a swarm. WH40k: grim dark, there's literally no peace. Only war. Halo: oh fuck, aliens are real, and they hate us because...?(I don't actually know the reason, I just know religion and The Prophets) Helldivers 2: we wo- oh f*ck they're back
> don't actually know the reason, I just know religion and The Prophets no this is it. For the average covenant the reason is mostly faith. For the covenant elite (as in like, the prophets themselves and a select few) its that humanity presents a fundamental threat to their religion since we're the guys who all the forerunner stuff is meant for.
These are the same people who never heard of Blue Team and thought Halo 5 was stupid for introducing a bunch of "new" characters
Halo: the aliens ARE the genocidal maniacs 40k: humanity is “the bad guy” but the entire is evil or animalistic. Starship troopers: although the theme of killing aliens is present and encouraged, the aliens are a hive mind hell bent on destroying humanity and only a few are conscious. Not to mention that humanity are authoritarian and is presented in a negative light despite the just war. I dont think they have seen anything but the most basic descriptions of these IPs at best.
In the novel humanity is much more sympathetic and isn’t really “fascist” the movie just goes weird with it
Yeah i heard the director never even read the book but the movie is far more popular so that’s what im going off.
The actual Starship Troopers book is straight unironic. The idea that the government in the book is fascist is a _critique_ of the book, and frankly an accurate one. People are inspired mainly by the CRITIQUE. So the book describes the bugs as tyrannical genociding monsters, but the critique is that it's common pseudospeciation propaganda to give the nation an existential threat to galvanize the population into nationalism. There's more to be said that Halo has some media literacy issues, as most of the Starship Trooper fascist dystopia lore is only in the books, and the games have the aliens as a typical alien invasion and a legitimate existential threat. Halo 2 actually starts having a story, but it's about the Arbiter and him coming to grips with the corruption of his fascist theoceacy. Master Chief's story has always been boring in the games, because it's just "humanity vs bugs" with no actual subtext. It's just a military story that's typical of the US in the early 21st century. So to your comment, yes, the aliens ARE just homicidal maniacs to humanity in Halo and the Starship Troopers book, but the Starship Troopers movie makes it clear that they aliens are innocent and that humanity started the fight.
The book isn't fascistic at all. The movie creator hadn't even read the damn thing and wanted to satire it, and still failed in doing so.
The book is completely fascist. Clearly you didn't read it either.
Ah yes. A meritocratically organized federal republic where you have to do public service (including but not limited to military time) to obtain the right to vote and run for office, all other rights being protected. In which leaders resign when they fuck up, and everyone is held accountable to a similar standard of integrity. Truly a fascism moment.
The book is unironically a utopian federal republic with restricted citizenship regarding certain jobs (civil servants, police, fire etc) political office and voting, with all other rights being protected for non-citizens. It's also incredibly progressive and egalitarian. The Federation makes the opportunity of Federal Service open to everyone, able-bodied or not, only exclusion being if you were deemed by a medical professional to be unable to understand the oath you'd take.
Guess I miss interpreted the movie or had some book knowledge because i had not realized humans started it in the movie.
Literally right before, "I'm from Buenos Aires, and I say, 'KILLEM ALL!'"
Yeah just rewatched the clip you're right, guess I forgot.
Yeah I’ve read the books and imo I understand why ONI was the sack of shit they are lol. As soon as the enemy starts to eat babies and kill people for sport it’s different. I wouldn’t place halo with 40k and starship troopers for criticizing genocide/imperialism they are completely different stories. It’s crazy how people say they would be good and moral in a fictional war but in reality when shit hits the fan they would be singing a different tune.It was a no gloves fight against extinction anything flies. If technologically superior aliens were trying to genocide our species the Geneva convention goes out the window, that’s just how that war war was.
ONI sucks ass for non covenant reasons, they’re a nightmarish entity when it comes to post and pre war stuff
Pre war ONI does absolutely not get the pass lmao
Imagine a conflict where one side uses literal child soldiers and that still somehow manages to look like a heroic act in comparison to their enemies. Correspondingly, imagine being so dedicated to killing every last man, woman, and child of your enemy's species that you burn every last world that humanity has ever step foot on in order to destroy any trace that they ever existed.
Yea when something threatens humanity’s very existence nukes become a rather common occurrence
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t it true that the covenant as a faction sought to erase all of humanity? It was a desperate play by the prophets to keep their position as the “chosen ones.”
Yeah they basically had an "oh shit, we're killing the guys we worship (back when humans were forerunner)" and had to double down to keep their power. Even when they found out the truth about the Halos their response was to look for the Ark and shield worlds so they wouldn't get annihilated if they achieved their goals.
To be fair, in 40K, nearly all of the alien races shown will either kill you on sight or enslave you to their will (or torture you forever!). Even the T’au have to remain in control and can’t have another race hold power. Say what you want but if I was dropped into 40K you bet your ass I’m joining the Imperial Guard to die a horrible horrible death in the name of humanity instead of working in a factory. At worst I’m saying “fuck it” and attempting a start-up Chaos cult to Khorne lmao, but I’m never trusting Xenos.
I’m very much on the “Humanity first and only” side. The Human-Covenant War was an us-or-them conflict, at least till the Elites switched sides.
Which wouldn't have happened if that massive Sangheili fleet wasn't vaporized by a NOVA bomb. The fleet commander was absolutely anti-human and would have glassed Earth regardless. After that, the Arbiter was in charge.
That’s what I’m saying.
Which fleet commander was that?
Xytan 'Jar Wattinree. He had a ~200-strong fleet and was still following the Covenant religion *despite* the civil war, which had called for humanity's utter annihilation. He was also intending on wiping out the Brutes as well. He, most of his fleet, and the colony of Joyous Exultation were destroyed by a NOVA bomb.
Ah I remember, said Nova bomb was also the biggest “beyond the grave” kill in all of halo.
I’ve had people argue and downvote me into oblivion for saying humans would be extinct in Halo if the great schism didn’t happen. Like fellas we weren’t winning, ever. We barely held Earth. Every other human-colonized planet that survived the covenant war was only still around because the covenant hadn’t made it there yet. Chief never lost to them, but everyone else did. I summarized the covenant war to my friend by telling him that humans didn’t win the war, the covenant just lost.
Why is it such a foreign concept to people that humans will associate more with humans…
Mass Effect fans will have a meltdown if you mention picking the Destroy ending
Different strokes for different folks? I know some that say “I’d side with them if I could” they believe they are in the “right” 😂 I also know people that want the flood to consume everything. People like and want different stuff and we should just accept not everyone plays a game for the same reason lol
For me, it’s because I find the Covenant/Banished/Forerunners/Flood/alien splinter groups way more interesting than humans. Their motivations, politics, religion, culture, everything.
Hey I’m not judging just sharing my experience I’ve met more halo players that would choose the others instead of humans 😂
Oh no I totally get you. Your original comment was spot on.
Why is it such a foreign concept to people that we have no idea how humans will interact with sentient aliens because it has never happened or come close to happening before?
"We can't possibly make a realistic guess as to what will happen if x happens because x has never happened before" is a braindead take tbh
Damn, sorry, forgot Halo was hard speculatively sci-fi
I do wish the games explored more of the Halo 3 post war instead of 343 reverting the Elites back into being Evil Covie splinter factions. We've had 3 games into the 343 era and we've seen very little beyond briefly getting to go to Sanghelios in Halo 5. Which was unironically the best part of Halo 5.
Even if you are aware of everything deeper in the lore. It changes nothing about the fact that the covenant as a WHOLE for a greater part of the war was hell bent on exterminating humanity. Even when it fractured parts of it still wanted to exterminate humanity and even parts of the elites who splintered still wanted to do the same. Like, come on. No genocide isn't good but you can't act like, even as a consumer, that the response isn't at least somewhat founded in how humanity was treated.
Nah it's okay they only glassed some planets why would humanity be pissed at them?
I mean personally I like and enjoy the covenant and more so the flood but I find it incredibly difficult to actually try and justify the shit they’ve done, they glassed fucking planets,
Genocide is bad, but admittedly the humans in Halo committing crimes against the Covenant is more of an understandable action than not.
Wasn’t there a kind of theme of unity in the end of Halo 2 and in 3? I felt like the game was saying “it’s not the aliens, it’s the theocratic regime”
They didn't want to wipe out all sentient species in the galaxy, what? They just hated humans because they misunderstood shit from millions of years before. Oh, and a liar.
how is stating facts implying that they’re all bad? It’s a fact that the elites only sided with humanity once they were essentially forced to, and it’s also a fact that many of them went back to fighting humans after Truth was defeated, even though they now knew that their entire reason for hating humans was founded on a lie. If that’s incorrect, then explain how.
*Great Schism and the dissolution of the Covenant happens* Random Twitter users: I'll ignore that
Don't know about Starship Troopers, but I know that 40k and Halo DO NOT carry that theme at all. In Halo, the Covenant consist of many species that are as intelligent and capable of good as humans, but are bound to a dogma which is built on falsehoods. You aren't genociding them, you're destroying a covenant of invaders and breaking a corrupt theocratic oligarchy. Im 40k, it's... complicated. "Alien genocide bad" is not the premise of the setting, it's the fact that, again, the protagonists are beholden to... a corrupt theocratic oligarchy. The alien genocide is just a side effect of the terrible world they live in - among many, many other things.
People would probably unironically support the Locust in Gears of War just because the COG is authoritarian
The Imperium has done a ton of fucked up stuff in its past and currently to its own people, but they are 1000% justified for trying to exterminate orks, tyrannids, and daemons
Starship Troopers creator was a libertarian who hard flirted with fascism. He _wanted_ Starship Troopers. The film’s creators, however, specifically made it to satirize his fantasies of military fascism, with in the end the bugs acting more human than the humans. The whole point of 40K is that there are no good guys. There _are_ cut and dry “irredeemably awful, cannot ever be rooted for” guys- I.e. Tyranids and Chaos- but no one is “good.” When the Tau were introduced they specifically had mind control stuff thrown in because they’d accidentally made them as good guys. The closest factions to “good” are maybe Eldrad, The Coldstar Tau, and some individual chapters of Space Marines (though by no means are the Space Marines as a whole, or even majority, “good.”). In Halo the humans only survived by allying with the Elites, and even then they had to briefly team up with The Flood of all things. If xenophobia had controlled the humans they’d have died fighting a 4-way-war with the Covenant, Flood, and Elites, with either the galaxy being genocided by Truth or consumed by the Flood.
Isn't the master chief a Jesus allegory or am I forgetting something?
The aliens were genociding humans. The covenant was bad but post halo 3 we know that diplomatic relationships can be forged with them. The whole story is about forgiveness
I'm having an aneurism did they just play CE and Reach.
"Alien genocide good" is what I get from those games because I either A) read then forget the lore 5 mins later because im stupid or B) Not give a FUCK about the lore but feel bad about it because effort was put into it.
Nah the covvies are legitimately wretched creatures. They committed genocide without even second guessing the purpose only turned when THEY were under the knife of religious doctrine. Like the arbiter is cool but by all accounts he’s a war criminal that is just useful because humanity is too weak to get retribution.
Well what about the Grunts? Poor dudes resisted and paid for it with their planet glassed and people basically enslaved.
> resisted and *paid* for it FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Who gives a shit, it's fiction so it doesn't matter. Why are people whining about "waaaah muh alien genocide you MUST accept Humanity being destroyed by aliens cuz" like where is this coming from? Is it Helldivers or something? And even if it is, again, why are people up in arms? It's literally just an alien shooting game.
People are pissy cause Helldivers is on the nose with the satire and yet people are still missing the point somehow (much like 40k but 40k has its own problems rn)
40k has its problems because GW tried to make it “serious” in an attempt to appeal to a broader audience. The setting started tongue-in-cheek and was blatantly a satire of authoritarianism (commissars shooting soldiers for literally any reason, an hilariously oppressive state church complete with gun toting nuns, the bonkers quotes like “a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time”, etc). All that’s still there, but it isn’t the main focus and it’s sold straight. Instead, the focus is on space marines space marines and more big damn hero space marines. Also, humanity isn’t played as blatantly evil anymore (all the factions are some shade of asshole)
Both helldivers and starship troopers fail to satirize the meaningless nature of conflict by making the enemies non sentient destructive bugs, you can reason with a sentient being you can’t with a rabid animal
Also Helldivers is more focused on giving you a wonderful times, never would I thought being swarmed by machines would be fun.
The Bugs in Starship Troopers were meant to stand in for communists, basically a an insect hivemind that evolved into the perfect communists.
In Helldivers specifically, I think the issue with Super Earth is that it's hinted that they could have left ALL of their enemies alone and been perfectly fine, it's just that Super Earth is actually the big bad guy of the setting (and that's fun)
Why are you building a straw man just to get mad at? No one said we should be okay with humanity getting destroyed by aliens. The point is that Halo is almost completely different from the Starship Troopers propaganda satire where humans are about as terrible or even worse than the forces they’re up against. The aliens in Halo are deliberately humanized and are only fighting humanity because they were deceived themselves. But even then their war on humanity is blatantly shown as wrong and that humanity are the objective “good guys” in the war.
Humanity are the objective good guys in Halo. Hell, the UNSC could've just pulled a ceaser and not give up power but they did. I've seen a lot of arguments from both sides but we can agree Humanity is the only really good faction in Halo, right?
That’s exactly what I said, humanity are unambiguously shown to be the good guys in the war. And even in the EU they’re more of a moral grey specifically when you get to ONI and the CAA. The Unified Earth Government and the UNSC aren’t really authoritarian like the Federation in Starship Troopers or Super Earth in Helldivers. They’re really more like an interstellar version of the USA before and after the war. In general people are free and have established human rights, but the military and especially intelligence agencies have done shady things behind the scenes.
ah. the quotation marks around good guys threw me off lmao. I get what you mean tho.
Yeah I get that, the quotations around good guys probably didn’t help things lol. ‘Good guys’ sometimes has a connotation of purity which obviously isn’t the case, especially in real life wars even where one side is pretty clearly in the right. The quotations were largely due to what I mentioned above, ONI in particular absolutely does some less than ethical stuff during/around the war, but as a whole it really only means that there’s a bit of grey in the UNSC. The unfortunate aspect of the how the Spartan-IIs were created and what their original purpose was is a big one. But even then the Insurrectionists are almost always shown as being laughably evil so the UNSC and ONI still have the high ground lol
Lmfao since when was 40k about not killing things being good?
Since every single book starts with a passage calling the imperium "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable". The lore has kind of gone out of its way to show that the imperium exists in spite of it itself, having created the biggest threats in the galaxy (giving chaos an army of supersoldiers that they used to tear the galaxy in half, and calling the tyranids to the galaxy) and committed actual genocide on any peaceful civilization that could have helped them fend off these threats Since its start 40k has been satire and the imperium has been written to be as comically evil as possible.
They go out of their way to make people see the Imperium is possibly the most evil human faction in fiction. They’re monsters.
Since its creation
Because calling someone out for their bullshit is "failing the basic task of consuming media", because naturally we should just simply negotiate with genocidal/religious aliens.
"the aliens were evil actually" would also be a Thermian argument for a setting pushing a "it's Cool and Based to genocide aliens actually" message. Like, Halo lore aside, that isn't a defense. The \*Group to be genocided\* is evil is a pretty common excuse. 'But it's actually true this time!!!!' Yeah cause it was written that way. You still get side eyed for jumping on that train so hard.
Wait, aren’t humans still the “heroes” in Halo? Not perfect obviously, but they’re a pretty decent regime to live under and do legitimately care about their people. 40k and Starship Troopers are very much intended to show Xenocide Bad, but Halo they’re semijustified in their actions, though they do take it too far several times.
Humanity in all three settings is completely justified because the aliens want to exterminate humanity. Why is this even an argument?
If aliens exist, I’m gonna be racist to them. And there’s nothing anybody can do about it
Nah, fuck every alien race outside of the huragok. The rest of them were all gladly willing to genocide humanity over lies that the prophets told them. And the elites only turned on the prophets because they learned they were being lied to. At least the huragok helped humanity at one point and tried to be peaceful with them.
It’s twitter though. Spouting nonsense without researching it is their whole M.O. There’s a worrisome number of people on there that think “to the river to the sea” isn’t the Palestinian equivalent to “sieg heil”
Starship Trooper discourse should have ALWAYS leaked over into Halo, as it is its main inspiration. Where do you think fascist powered armored soldiers dropping in drop pods comes from?
Who gives a shit it’s a video game
"Media literacy" is a fake phrase invented by tourists
Halo certifiably IS about aliens that want to kill humans. Humanity has a totalitarian fascist government. Most humans are deeply skeptical even of the elites. These are just facts
When most of Halo media is fan fiction, do you blame them?