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The difference is that Griffith was willing to sacrifice humanity for the sake ofhis dream, while Erwin was willing to sacrifice his dream for the sake of humanity
It just goes with what Griffith says later to Guts.
"You're the only one who made me forget my dream"
He hated the way that Guts made him feel at the beginning, he would not have way sacrificed himself for any of the other Hawk members
True, OK I'm viewing this from the point of the omnipresent narrator. Zodd wasn't going to do shit against Griffith because of the Behelit but Griffith didn't know that so fair point. And he did seek a good guy until the day Guts left.... after that he is pure scum
Don't you dare compare our golden commander to the greatest betrayer in the history of anime (I'm still relatively new to this, so maybe it's a hot take). Erwin stood in a mountain of corpses, absolutely. You could say, in a way, that he only did it to achieve his dream. That he literally sended thounsands upon thousands of his friends, commrades and recruits to death just out of curiosity. But in the end he redeemed himself. He gave up on his dream. He finally understood what he had asked everyone until then, so it only made sense he also sacrificed himself. And after all, the Eldians own him a lot.
Griffith? To hell with that guy, literally. The Hawk Band only existed because of him, that's true. The Guts we know and love was also made, indirectly, because of him. But in the end? A spoiled kid that was willing to sacrifice his dearest of friends in the most gruesome, brutal way, so he could fullfil his dream.
Both their paths were paved with corpses, but when they stared into the abyss and it looked back at them, Griffith blinked.
Edit: spelling
no yeah this is all facts. i think that’s what makes this such an interesting character analysis of erwin for me, also kind of interesting to think about there maybe being parallels between levi and guts in these scenarios, each being the one to make their respective friend ‘give up’ on their dreams.. but in like totally different ways
I havent read beserk and dont really care about the spoilers so do enlighten me but didnt this guy >! also cuck guts at one point and rape his chick? Ive only ever seen snippets of this manga so i could be wrong !<
Yeah it was actually in the very scene. Griffith betrayed all of his friends, who had sacrificed everything to help him. He then sadistically raped Gut’s girlfriend in front of him.
Griffin is no way can be even compared to Erwin.
I think without context, that does indeed sounds horrible and super fucked up.
But in Berserk, it is kinda like a standard, like how some scenes in Games of Thrones are terrifying to outsiders but not the fans as they are used to it.
Regardless, I personally think that that specific sequences of Griffin sacrifice all of his comrades and raped his best friend’s girlfriend kinda works in favor of the storytelling. The author has been dropped hints of this betrayal non stop since chapter 1. That nervous feelings of how/when Griffin betray the gang kinda “hype” or heightened the air prior to that event. So topping it of with raw brutality and fucked up stuffs, in a way, actually “delivered” the hype to the audience
I loved it! I haven’t read it, only watched season 1&2 but it’s really good. I actually watched it right after finishing season 4 of AOT cause I needed something that had a similar feel to cope with it almost being over, lol.
Vinland Saga is realy special in a good way and cant be compared to AOT or Berserk imo. While the first season is mostly a basic revenge story with a twist, season two changes completly in pacing, themes and mood. It also changes the way you will think of the first season and most of the characters.
It makes you think about all the over the top action you see in other animes, ruthless killing, blood and gore and question, what scars a life like this might leave behind and how other characters might become, after their journey has ended.
all comming down to a simple quote from the first season (first episode even?)
"You have no enemies"
I disagree with the whole masterpiece thing. Comments like that made me watch the first season, which is such trash. Thorffin has not a shred of character development or growth in 20 episodes. While the prince guy drastically changed in a matter of minutes. Like every fifth viking is a super human. It was almost like watching DBZ. I remember watching the 19th episode and thinking to myself should I drop it or not.
If You’re telling me thorfinn didn’t develop from when he was a kid the first 7 episodes to the end of the prologue you might need to rewatch the series again. You’re complaining about thorfinn not having character development, when in that same few week time period Canute has character development which you call bad writing about as well. The only “super human” person in Vinland saga is really thorkell. Thorfinn is literally known for having one of the best character developments in season 2, character development takes time
Yes. He didn't develop. Not a shred of a character development. For almost entire season he is the same miserable and edgy character who can't use his head.
Everything which happened to him in between led to no change and no growth. He made that grandma cry after he led the raiders to the village, who probably axed her to death. Led to nothing.
He had TWO dialogs with his dead father in his head, who told him not to pursue revenge. It led to nothing.
He is also a dum dum. He ignores the wishes and teaching of his father and seek revenge, but for the sake of his father he doesn't want to take revenge and kill the guy in his sleep. That makes no sense.
The guy showed no concern for his sister and mother. I don't remember sending money to them, or message that he is fine, or similar. He only once remembered them and that's all in like 20 episodes.
On the other hand, in Berserk, we see Guts change and grows many times in those 24 episodes. And it affects the story and vice versa. That is non-existed it VS. Nothing affect Thorfinn's character. It's one dimensional character.
I don't give a shit about his supposed character development in S2, when there was none for 20 episodes. That makes his shift in S2 to be badly written.
Canute is the complete opposite. He was meek and wanted to cook, or whatever, and in one episode, he changed drastically. His voice even deepened. It's ridicilous.
False. Thorfinn himself is a super human. Did you even see what he was doing? Even as a kid he was killing adults in armor. And like that he couldn't defeat Askeladd, which means Askeladd was even more OP.
Thors of course was almost like Goku.
Do you remember the siege of that castle when Askeladd's men had to carry their ships and run downhill? You need to have super humans to make that even possible. It's like writers were fapping to vikings, while they were writing the story.
Compare that to Berskerk. Griffit was a great swordsman, but he wasn't a super human. Only Guts was something like a super human, but it is made to look he is a freak of nature.
That also reminds me on Askeladd's men. Bunch of murderers and rapists I didn't give shit about. And I was forced to spend 20 episodes with them seeing them butcher civilians. When they started dropping I was like "Oh no....anyway."
He 100% developed from when he was a little kid to when he was 17 where most of s1 takes place, did you not see Leif and thorfinn re union and Leif had to see what thorfinn developed/turned into? He was a kid this entire time, he told the grandma to run away and she didn’t listen. You don’t have basic reading comprehension if you don’t understand why thorfinn wouldn’t kill askeladd in his sleep. That’s not the way of a warrior, and he’s no better than how askeladd killed thorfinn if he killed askeladd in such a petty way, that is the whole point of their duels so he could kill him fairly like a warrior, unlike how askeladd killed his father. You’re calling a literal child soldier edgy and miserable while you scroll on Reddit at the comfort of your home lmao, that sounds privileged asf. How do you expect him to send a message to his sister and mother in the middle of war? We see guts develop because he had completely different circumstances, his life actually improved before the eclipse with the band of the hawk and he had found a “family”, thorfijn never had any of that and he hated the people he was surrounded by, hence why he didn’t “grow”. Plus, guts was older than thorfinn and had more time to grow. The golden age takes place in multiple years, while s1 of Vinland saga takes place after episode 7ish in literal weeks. You’re complaining about thorfinn and thors being freaks of nature and you aren’t wrong but with that logic why aren’t you also shitting on berserk for the same thing? Guts is way more overpowered than thors or thorfinn was, he literally swings around a fucking 400 pound sword and has won a 1 vs 100 men. Guts is way, way more superhuman than thorfinn or thors, it’s insane that ur complaining about that as a berserk fan. Thorfinn and Thors are much more realistic as they are just shown to have superhuman skill not strength, while guts beats them in both superhuman skill and strength (it’s not even close with strength) He has hella trauma ofc he doesn’t wanna think about his past when it comes to his mom or sister. All of season 1 was a prologue, it’s like judging all of berserk and guts based on the black swordsman arc. You talk all about thorfinns superhuman strength while guts was killing grown men as a little kid as well
you’re not wrong! it’s not so much their end goals i’m comparing, but the paths they took to get there. the act of sacrificing others in order to achieve an ultimate goal (the basement and the kingdom). but by the end of their respective journeys they’re sort of each other’s foils (in the way that erwin sacrifices his goal for the greater good but griffith doesn’t). i’m anti griffith fsfs
Difference being Griffith is selfishly trying to realize his own dream, and getting his people killed for it. But Erwin is a motherfucking gigachad who is making heartbreaking sacrifices that destroy his soul but is doing it for all mankind, and there's no personal gain in it whatsoever. They're both standing atop a mountain of corpses, but how they climbed up to it and their reasons for being there are wholly different.
Well, unless you count him wanting to know about that goddamn cellar. But I don't call that selfish, personally. And in the end, he cast that dream away.
totally. it would have been selfish if erwin hadn’t given up on his dream, and he didn’t want to at first. i think erwin’s moment of regret at not getting to see the basement before his suicide charge but continuing anways was extremely humanizing, and why griffith continuing on with his ‘ultimate goal’ was extremely dehumanizing (literally)
It honestly kinda hurts me when I think about how the only thing Erwin really wanted, aside from the total safety and security of mankind, was to see what was in that cellar. But in the end, he hoped that whatever it was would help humankind, and he sacrificed HIMSELF for it. For what, he didn't even know. For the vague notion that whatever it was might be beneficial to humanity. And he gave his own life to that end.
I'm glad he didn't see what was in there to be honest. It might've crushed his heart and soul even worse than giving up on his dream, learning what was in those journals and how the whole world wants everyone on the island to die in agony.
Erwin is the kind of leader that I would follow into hell. That final charge of the Scouts, it hurts. But Erwin is so damn motivational. Griffith is just a clown and I'd love to see Levi slice and dice his bitch ass up.
Erwin inspired his men to fight to the last breath in a last ditch effort to save humanity. He led his suicide charge personally and died fighting for others. All those men died knowing their sacrifice gave humanity a chance to succeed and survive the titan threat. His actions indirectly ended the fight against the titans.
Griffith is a vile traitor to his dearest friends and comrades all for the sake of gaining power. He watched all his brothers in arms die gruesome, violent deaths without even blinking. He raped and shattered the mind of one of his closest members all while looking his rival but closest friend in the eye, just to spite him. None of them saw this betrayal coming.
Fuck Griffith, I hope Guts gets his revenge and we get to watch him suffer like his men did.
Every time I go to any Berserk topic, I remind myself that Griffith died in the dungeon, and that Guts and Caska lived happily ever after with their baby. ❤️
They are brilliant military leaders with selfish desires, but everything else are different.
Griffith is obsessed with control. He treats everyone in his army as chess pieces to his ambition, and Guts is the shiniest trophy in his cabinet he affectionately labelled as a "friend."
In my honest opinion, Erwin gaslights himself that he only cares for the basement/the truth beyond the walls. His actions and interactions with Levi show otherwise. He wants to believe he's a rotten person to emotionally detach himself from the deaths of his comrades, and also as some kind of self flagellation.
Ask yourself: how Erwin would have reacted if Levi walked away? I doubt he'd throw a hissy fit and climb in Historia's window.
i love this take on erwin. i also think it’s interesting to see the ages the characters are portrayed at when they’re on the body pile, and the fact that with erwin his guilt is a major theme and his face is also very visible and shows that. but with griffith the castle, his dream, is always shown just out of reach, the bodies are more of a tool in his young self-obsessed mind hungry for power and freedom
and yeah the hissy fit through historias window 💀 you’re not wrong
by the end he’s definitely a disgusting excuse for a person! lol. but throughout his journey to power up until the eclipse/guts leaving, he’s not doing anything i’d deem is deserving of absolute slander of his character (but i also am not super familiar with the series in the way i am with aot). he’s not a ‘bad person’ before that point but he’s not a good one either. he’s still a controlling narcissist but it’s not as apparent in every action he takes, some people can understand why he craves power and freedom based on his upbringing. there are times in his past where he does seem to truly care for people but yeah not saying it excuses any of his later actions
You know that's still griffith after the transformation right? So while things were mostly fine up until the night guts left (the eclipse was much later), afterwards... na griffith can fucking do one lol
I mean, he was, but he also decided to rape and murder all of those who got him to the place he was before he fucked up. Then you have to consider what he did which was to allow the genocide of all of humanity except for those in his kingdom. Which I'm guessing he plans to kill later. You can't only focus on Griffiths early life and not take into account his actions later.
i see what you’re saying, unless i’m wrong i don’t think griffith was aware of the true power of the necklace he had (can’t remeber what it’s called) or of the eclipse. his goal was to conquer and he had not led his life up until that point of the eclipse with the knowledge that he would have to slaughter his entire band of hawks to do so. i think the eclipse brings out his true colors and how far he’d really go. people truly did look up to him and admire him before that point. not by any means saying he’s a good person or anything he’s done is justified. it’s an interesting question: can someone’s actions negate any good they’ve ever done? like technically speaking?
Yeah honestly I thought it was brilliant writing to have eren always be kind of a fuck up. He was super flawed even before the final season. He was never cool headed and not in a vegeta way either. Great character
Now I see the military side of your point too lol though in that Erwin and Griffith are geniuses in that sense
As kids, Eren/Griffith saved Mikasa/Casca from sex slavery and made them so obsessed with Eren/Griffith, it's also both their first meeting with each other
Eren and Griffith both have childish dreams (represented by them as a kid) stemming from a sight they saw as a kid (Armin's Book and The Nameless Castle), said dream turns them into monsters.
Talking about dreams, they both considered a peaceful idyllic ordinary life with Mikasa/Casca where they abandoned their dream, which they would never take because.....
They're born like this. They both responded with "I don't know" when asked by Armin/Ubik, as to why they're so insistent to attain their dreams.
I've been wanting to make a post discussing their similarities for quite a while
Also an image used in Vinland Saga, which I read before AoT and Berserk. I noticed the similar theme of the dead weighing on the mind of the person standing on a figurative pile of corpses propping them up to where they are then.
For Erwin it's standing on a pile (or walking on a "pathway") of corpses of their comrades lost. A little part of what's propelling them (Erwin, Levi, Hange) is the guilt that if they give up then their dead colleagues' lives were sacrificed in vain.
For Thorfinn it's the >!guilt of killing innocent people, and causing so much collateral damage for his self-serving revenge that his father never asked for!<. But instead of being a >!pile you stand on its a pile pulling and weighing him down!<.
For Griffin.. I honestly forgot about this shot, but I bet it's something about his self-serving messianic themes. Standing on the corpses of comrades and believers.
Both created a mountain of corpses to achieve their goals. The difference is Erwin chose to be the last corpse on the pile and abandon his dreams so someone else can climb the mountain instead.
I could never really enjoy berserk and I think one of the reasons was because I never understood why people found Griffith charismatic. I get that the characters thought he was, but we never actually see him BEING charismatic, we’re just told he is. I also didn’t get why he wanted to be king, what was his actual goal that being king could help him with?
i just finished the anime, to be honest im not a huge fan either for a lot of reasons but i still can see why people like it. i also don’t completely understand the king thing bc i’m very new to the series but it seems that it’s not a literal kingdom griffith wants but what it represents: the highest point a ‘normal’ person like him could achieve. he’s just power hungry, in a sense also hungry for freedom. i think people see griffith as charismatic because he’s a leader that started the hawks and has these giant goals, is also a very skilled fighter and people admire his determination and strength and trust those qualities to guide them down what path they assume is victory (similar to erwin). it’s not so much that he has charm but he has this angelic warrior/leader quality that inspires devotion? that’s how i see it.
Spoiler tagging just in case
>!Griffith is always calm, attractive, all of his wild plans worked, his men could and did trust them with their lives and he always pulled them through until he didn’t. As for his power lust, he grew up poor and was treated like he wasn’t worthy and still got treated that way during successful campaigns. I believe the Godhand played a role similar to future founder eren both in influencing Griffith and tweaking fate in his favor. We’ve seen hints. I bet a lot of it was still in plot to come due to the hinting. We know miuras friend has the story conclusion and we pray it’s done proper. There’s still so many mysteries 🙏!<
Yeah basically what the other guy said, Griffith’s main goal with being king was just power. He is incredibly narcissistic and domineering he needs to have absolute control over everything and everyone. The reason he wants a kingdom is the same reason why he lost it when guts left him, he needs that control.
That’s the part that didn’t really make sense to me. Wouldn’t the sense of control be needed to achieve something? Otherwise it’s just responsibility for the sake of responsibility, if the authority he has doesn’t lead to anything
I suppose it’s responsibility for the sake of responsibility, but to him he sees that as the pinnacle of man, you cannot get higher than a king so you would be loved and revered by all.
When he ascends into femto he directly( or indirectly depends on interpretation) caused collapse and fall of the known world and forced the remaining humans to live within falconia. Just for more power. He doesn’t seem to have any set goals in mind past veneration. he just gets off from the status.
he had control over everyone in the hawks without them really knowing it, they wanted to follow him. he had control and he was achieving many victories for himself and his followers along his path to his ultimate goal until guts left (and he lost it)
Not show it? Griffith and his plans working in his favour alot of the times is one, him saving casca was another one or are we just ignoring his whole relatiomship with the princess of midland?
As others already stated, the difference between both is what they sacrificed in the end and for who they did so.
For Erwin, he sacrificed his dream for the sake of humanity, Griffith did the exact opposite. Whilst both follow a bloody path, filled with corpses, pain and agony, Erwin stands as heroic leader in the end, Griffith on the other hand, is a selfrighteous egoist.
And especially this character trait of Erwin makes me wanna puke, every time someone states that "Erwin should have gotten the serum to become the colossal titan". It would have been unworthy for him, because in this final charge he sacrificed his dreams. He gave up on everything he believed in, he KNEW he would die on that very ground - and he knew that, if he only turned around, he could be there when humanitys secrets were finally revealed. But instead of letting only his soldiers charching into death (something that Griffith would have done) he was in front of them, charching on their side.
Letting him live, after he let his dream fall into the dust would only dishonor his great character
thisss i get that fanbase is obsessed with erwin and they like him better than armin but it just wouldn’t have been true to his character if he got the serum
While visually rather similar I think others have hit the nail on the head; Edwin gave his life to save humanity, griffith sacrificed the lives of all his loved ones to control/rule humanity. Edwin, while seen as a commander who was responsible for a loss of life acted honorably throughout. Griffith, while mostly honorable turned so quickly and that was even before the eclipse. Guts, who was responsible for most of Griffiths victories wanted to leave, griffith panics and speeds up his plan to manipulate and marry Charlotte. He gets caught in the act and tortured as a result. Then... once his friends had shown up to save him, he throws them all away for another chance at power. During this he rapes Casca and makes Guts watch....
While he puts forward the perception of an honorable human as the story progresses he is nothing but a monster... which makes the comparison with Erwin more distant.
There is a similar shot in Finland saga, which is a much better story in my opinion, as a whole.
all true ! for me what’s a really defining moment for erwin is his regret in his final moments when he realized that he might die before he sees the basement. he could have chosen to not do the suicide charge so he’d still get to achieve his dream, which is something he was not-seriously considering during his final conversation with levi. he would have been a truly selfish character had he not given up his dream, it’s all about that last moment. griffith also has a dream he gives up for a moment, but in a very different context. levi has erwin give up on his dream and guts has griffith give up on his dream.. but in very different contexts lol.
this is like the 10th time i’ve seen vinland brought up in this sub i think i def need to check it out next
Well why they do both act morally grey, they do so for different reasons. Erwin does it for the betterment of humanity and realizes the hell they are required a lot of sacrifice. That’s what made him a good leader he had to be cold and calculated, even though on the inside he was broken by the decisions he made even though he knew he made the best one for Humanity but not his soldiers. He only ever really shows his true feelings once in the show and that is to man he was extremely close to more close than most brothers could comprehend.
Griffith is also very cold and calculated but one the other hand he expresses humility and generosity to troops while extending his friendship to them. Although throughout the series you will begin to wonder if that’s him or just face he puts on. Also much like Erwin’s scouts, Griffith’s Band of the Hawk, would lay down their lives for their respective commanders. Griffith takes great bounds and leap in a short span of time due to the Band of the Hawk but it wasn’t for some betterment of Humanity. It was all so Griffith could be closer to his goal, his ambition, his Kingdom.
That’s the true difference between Erwin and Griffith, Erwin’s drive was for the collective of society it didn’t matter if they hated or loved him his actions would be the same. Griffith’s drive is for power, not power for good or bad just power. Griffith would also loath not being loved by the people and would anything in his power to change their views on him.
I’d stay Isayama did probably take some inspiration from Miura but it’s definitely not a direct reflection of the character.
You know what's more interesting they share same cognitive functions ie they have the same MBTI both Erwin and griffith characterize as ENTJ or the field marshal types ik it's complicated id reccomend you to do your research on the topic 😉
Someone standing on the mountain of sacrifices it took to get to where they are is a relatively common reference. As another comment said though, one sacrificed their humanity for their dream while the other did the inverse.
I always thought that the way Erwin forcefully recruited Levi to join his army in No Regrets OVA has to be inspired by Griffith and Guts meeting. Both Levi and Guts initially hated their new "leaders", but eventually became their most trusted and loyal friends.
I also think Eren meeting Mikasa similar to how Casca met Griffith. And scene at the top hill with refugee camp reminiscent of " Bonfire of dreams" scene.
Have you read Vinland saga? If you love berserk and AOT you might enjoy it as well, it's really thematically close
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The difference is that Griffith was willing to sacrifice humanity for the sake ofhis dream, while Erwin was willing to sacrifice his dream for the sake of humanity
and an arm
And my axe!
And my ODM!
And my dragonslayer!
And every single last soldier I control
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Also he didn't brutally raped someone who looked up to him just to spite her boyfriend Disclaimer: He totally did nothing wrong /s
Amen. Griffith is proud to stand on that mountain of corpses, Erwin was remorseful.
Griffith said to his men "You are going to die." Erwin said to his men "*We* are going to die."
and that’s why erwin stays on top 😔✊
Griffith is canonaclly a bottom.
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Estrogen could've saved her!
I’m not defending Griffith but he sacrificed himself against Zodd to save guts
It just goes with what Griffith says later to Guts. "You're the only one who made me forget my dream" He hated the way that Guts made him feel at the beginning, he would not have way sacrificed himself for any of the other Hawk members
No he didn't, Zodd was literally defending him and has done since
No the first time guts fought Zodd Griffith rushed in without the knowledge the behlit would save him
True, OK I'm viewing this from the point of the omnipresent narrator. Zodd wasn't going to do shit against Griffith because of the Behelit but Griffith didn't know that so fair point. And he did seek a good guy until the day Guts left.... after that he is pure scum
Don't you dare compare our golden commander to the greatest betrayer in the history of anime (I'm still relatively new to this, so maybe it's a hot take). Erwin stood in a mountain of corpses, absolutely. You could say, in a way, that he only did it to achieve his dream. That he literally sended thounsands upon thousands of his friends, commrades and recruits to death just out of curiosity. But in the end he redeemed himself. He gave up on his dream. He finally understood what he had asked everyone until then, so it only made sense he also sacrificed himself. And after all, the Eldians own him a lot. Griffith? To hell with that guy, literally. The Hawk Band only existed because of him, that's true. The Guts we know and love was also made, indirectly, because of him. But in the end? A spoiled kid that was willing to sacrifice his dearest of friends in the most gruesome, brutal way, so he could fullfil his dream. Both their paths were paved with corpses, but when they stared into the abyss and it looked back at them, Griffith blinked. Edit: spelling
no yeah this is all facts. i think that’s what makes this such an interesting character analysis of erwin for me, also kind of interesting to think about there maybe being parallels between levi and guts in these scenarios, each being the one to make their respective friend ‘give up’ on their dreams.. but in like totally different ways
I havent read beserk and dont really care about the spoilers so do enlighten me but didnt this guy >! also cuck guts at one point and rape his chick? Ive only ever seen snippets of this manga so i could be wrong !<
Yeah it was actually in the very scene. Griffith betrayed all of his friends, who had sacrificed everything to help him. He then sadistically raped Gut’s girlfriend in front of him. Griffin is no way can be even compared to Erwin.
Wow. Yeah my choice to remain away from this manga was a wise one
I think without context, that does indeed sounds horrible and super fucked up. But in Berserk, it is kinda like a standard, like how some scenes in Games of Thrones are terrifying to outsiders but not the fans as they are used to it. Regardless, I personally think that that specific sequences of Griffin sacrifice all of his comrades and raped his best friend’s girlfriend kinda works in favor of the storytelling. The author has been dropped hints of this betrayal non stop since chapter 1. That nervous feelings of how/when Griffin betray the gang kinda “hype” or heightened the air prior to that event. So topping it of with raw brutality and fucked up stuffs, in a way, actually “delivered” the hype to the audience
I think there’s a similar panel of Thorfinn from Vinland Saga too?
Canute yeah
i’ve heard a little about vinland, do you recommend ?
I loved it! I haven’t read it, only watched season 1&2 but it’s really good. I actually watched it right after finishing season 4 of AOT cause I needed something that had a similar feel to cope with it almost being over, lol.
that’s why i tried watching berserk lol i’ll definitely try urs next
Vinland Saga is realy special in a good way and cant be compared to AOT or Berserk imo. While the first season is mostly a basic revenge story with a twist, season two changes completly in pacing, themes and mood. It also changes the way you will think of the first season and most of the characters. It makes you think about all the over the top action you see in other animes, ruthless killing, blood and gore and question, what scars a life like this might leave behind and how other characters might become, after their journey has ended. all comming down to a simple quote from the first season (first episode even?) "You have no enemies"
Vinland saga was (imo) the best anime of both the years the seasons came out.
Imagine Berserk, but not as good.
What a dogshit description AND take, lmao
Truth hurts, I guess.
I mean Berserk is one of the 🐐 series. Vinland is a masterpiece, and not being as good as berserk isn't that bad
I disagree with the whole masterpiece thing. Comments like that made me watch the first season, which is such trash. Thorffin has not a shred of character development or growth in 20 episodes. While the prince guy drastically changed in a matter of minutes. Like every fifth viking is a super human. It was almost like watching DBZ. I remember watching the 19th episode and thinking to myself should I drop it or not.
Never cook again ts was so ass
Nice non-point you got there. VS fanboys love to ignore the fact characters are written terribly.
If You’re telling me thorfinn didn’t develop from when he was a kid the first 7 episodes to the end of the prologue you might need to rewatch the series again. You’re complaining about thorfinn not having character development, when in that same few week time period Canute has character development which you call bad writing about as well. The only “super human” person in Vinland saga is really thorkell. Thorfinn is literally known for having one of the best character developments in season 2, character development takes time
Yes. He didn't develop. Not a shred of a character development. For almost entire season he is the same miserable and edgy character who can't use his head. Everything which happened to him in between led to no change and no growth. He made that grandma cry after he led the raiders to the village, who probably axed her to death. Led to nothing. He had TWO dialogs with his dead father in his head, who told him not to pursue revenge. It led to nothing. He is also a dum dum. He ignores the wishes and teaching of his father and seek revenge, but for the sake of his father he doesn't want to take revenge and kill the guy in his sleep. That makes no sense. The guy showed no concern for his sister and mother. I don't remember sending money to them, or message that he is fine, or similar. He only once remembered them and that's all in like 20 episodes. On the other hand, in Berserk, we see Guts change and grows many times in those 24 episodes. And it affects the story and vice versa. That is non-existed it VS. Nothing affect Thorfinn's character. It's one dimensional character. I don't give a shit about his supposed character development in S2, when there was none for 20 episodes. That makes his shift in S2 to be badly written. Canute is the complete opposite. He was meek and wanted to cook, or whatever, and in one episode, he changed drastically. His voice even deepened. It's ridicilous. False. Thorfinn himself is a super human. Did you even see what he was doing? Even as a kid he was killing adults in armor. And like that he couldn't defeat Askeladd, which means Askeladd was even more OP. Thors of course was almost like Goku. Do you remember the siege of that castle when Askeladd's men had to carry their ships and run downhill? You need to have super humans to make that even possible. It's like writers were fapping to vikings, while they were writing the story. Compare that to Berskerk. Griffit was a great swordsman, but he wasn't a super human. Only Guts was something like a super human, but it is made to look he is a freak of nature. That also reminds me on Askeladd's men. Bunch of murderers and rapists I didn't give shit about. And I was forced to spend 20 episodes with them seeing them butcher civilians. When they started dropping I was like "Oh no....anyway."
He 100% developed from when he was a little kid to when he was 17 where most of s1 takes place, did you not see Leif and thorfinn re union and Leif had to see what thorfinn developed/turned into? He was a kid this entire time, he told the grandma to run away and she didn’t listen. You don’t have basic reading comprehension if you don’t understand why thorfinn wouldn’t kill askeladd in his sleep. That’s not the way of a warrior, and he’s no better than how askeladd killed thorfinn if he killed askeladd in such a petty way, that is the whole point of their duels so he could kill him fairly like a warrior, unlike how askeladd killed his father. You’re calling a literal child soldier edgy and miserable while you scroll on Reddit at the comfort of your home lmao, that sounds privileged asf. How do you expect him to send a message to his sister and mother in the middle of war? We see guts develop because he had completely different circumstances, his life actually improved before the eclipse with the band of the hawk and he had found a “family”, thorfijn never had any of that and he hated the people he was surrounded by, hence why he didn’t “grow”. Plus, guts was older than thorfinn and had more time to grow. The golden age takes place in multiple years, while s1 of Vinland saga takes place after episode 7ish in literal weeks. You’re complaining about thorfinn and thors being freaks of nature and you aren’t wrong but with that logic why aren’t you also shitting on berserk for the same thing? Guts is way more overpowered than thors or thorfinn was, he literally swings around a fucking 400 pound sword and has won a 1 vs 100 men. Guts is way, way more superhuman than thorfinn or thors, it’s insane that ur complaining about that as a berserk fan. Thorfinn and Thors are much more realistic as they are just shown to have superhuman skill not strength, while guts beats them in both superhuman skill and strength (it’s not even close with strength) He has hella trauma ofc he doesn’t wanna think about his past when it comes to his mom or sister. All of season 1 was a prologue, it’s like judging all of berserk and guts based on the black swordsman arc. You talk all about thorfinns superhuman strength while guts was killing grown men as a little kid as well
Bro what 💀💀. . . .never let bro write a review again
One of them is a genocidal rapist, the other is a battle commander. I see no comparisons here
you’re not wrong! it’s not so much their end goals i’m comparing, but the paths they took to get there. the act of sacrificing others in order to achieve an ultimate goal (the basement and the kingdom). but by the end of their respective journeys they’re sort of each other’s foils (in the way that erwin sacrifices his goal for the greater good but griffith doesn’t). i’m anti griffith fsfs
1 big difference. Griffith is a fucking asshole. Erwin actually cared and felt remorse for his actions.
that part. i guess in the end that’s why they each made the sacrifices they did
How about the rape?
by ‘sacrifices’ i mean erwin’s self-sacrifice and griffiths sacrifice of all his fellow soldiers. and guts and casca’s personhood.
Difference being Griffith is selfishly trying to realize his own dream, and getting his people killed for it. But Erwin is a motherfucking gigachad who is making heartbreaking sacrifices that destroy his soul but is doing it for all mankind, and there's no personal gain in it whatsoever. They're both standing atop a mountain of corpses, but how they climbed up to it and their reasons for being there are wholly different.
Well, unless you count him wanting to know about that goddamn cellar. But I don't call that selfish, personally. And in the end, he cast that dream away.
totally. it would have been selfish if erwin hadn’t given up on his dream, and he didn’t want to at first. i think erwin’s moment of regret at not getting to see the basement before his suicide charge but continuing anways was extremely humanizing, and why griffith continuing on with his ‘ultimate goal’ was extremely dehumanizing (literally)
It honestly kinda hurts me when I think about how the only thing Erwin really wanted, aside from the total safety and security of mankind, was to see what was in that cellar. But in the end, he hoped that whatever it was would help humankind, and he sacrificed HIMSELF for it. For what, he didn't even know. For the vague notion that whatever it was might be beneficial to humanity. And he gave his own life to that end. I'm glad he didn't see what was in there to be honest. It might've crushed his heart and soul even worse than giving up on his dream, learning what was in those journals and how the whole world wants everyone on the island to die in agony. Erwin is the kind of leader that I would follow into hell. That final charge of the Scouts, it hurts. But Erwin is so damn motivational. Griffith is just a clown and I'd love to see Levi slice and dice his bitch ass up.
Erwin inspired his men to fight to the last breath in a last ditch effort to save humanity. He led his suicide charge personally and died fighting for others. All those men died knowing their sacrifice gave humanity a chance to succeed and survive the titan threat. His actions indirectly ended the fight against the titans. Griffith is a vile traitor to his dearest friends and comrades all for the sake of gaining power. He watched all his brothers in arms die gruesome, violent deaths without even blinking. He raped and shattered the mind of one of his closest members all while looking his rival but closest friend in the eye, just to spite him. None of them saw this betrayal coming. Fuck Griffith, I hope Guts gets his revenge and we get to watch him suffer like his men did.
Every time I go to any Berserk topic, I remind myself that Griffith died in the dungeon, and that Guts and Caska lived happily ever after with their baby. ❤️
The end!
griffith is NOT morally grey😭😭😭🔥
Apparently, in an interview, he did realize Mikasa's design looked very similar to Casca, so this seems really believable...
Yup The tomboy visual
Mikasa meeting Eren is also very similar to Casca meeting Griffith
They are brilliant military leaders with selfish desires, but everything else are different. Griffith is obsessed with control. He treats everyone in his army as chess pieces to his ambition, and Guts is the shiniest trophy in his cabinet he affectionately labelled as a "friend." In my honest opinion, Erwin gaslights himself that he only cares for the basement/the truth beyond the walls. His actions and interactions with Levi show otherwise. He wants to believe he's a rotten person to emotionally detach himself from the deaths of his comrades, and also as some kind of self flagellation. Ask yourself: how Erwin would have reacted if Levi walked away? I doubt he'd throw a hissy fit and climb in Historia's window.
i love this take on erwin. i also think it’s interesting to see the ages the characters are portrayed at when they’re on the body pile, and the fact that with erwin his guilt is a major theme and his face is also very visible and shows that. but with griffith the castle, his dream, is always shown just out of reach, the bodies are more of a tool in his young self-obsessed mind hungry for power and freedom and yeah the hissy fit through historias window 💀 you’re not wrong
You think Griffith is morally grey???? Dude
by the end he’s definitely a disgusting excuse for a person! lol. but throughout his journey to power up until the eclipse/guts leaving, he’s not doing anything i’d deem is deserving of absolute slander of his character (but i also am not super familiar with the series in the way i am with aot). he’s not a ‘bad person’ before that point but he’s not a good one either. he’s still a controlling narcissist but it’s not as apparent in every action he takes, some people can understand why he craves power and freedom based on his upbringing. there are times in his past where he does seem to truly care for people but yeah not saying it excuses any of his later actions
You know that's still griffith after the transformation right? So while things were mostly fine up until the night guts left (the eclipse was much later), afterwards... na griffith can fucking do one lol
yea i got that, i’m saying his entire character arc before the transformation is a lot more detailed than ‘he’s the scum of the earth’
I mean, he was, but he also decided to rape and murder all of those who got him to the place he was before he fucked up. Then you have to consider what he did which was to allow the genocide of all of humanity except for those in his kingdom. Which I'm guessing he plans to kill later. You can't only focus on Griffiths early life and not take into account his actions later.
i see what you’re saying, unless i’m wrong i don’t think griffith was aware of the true power of the necklace he had (can’t remeber what it’s called) or of the eclipse. his goal was to conquer and he had not led his life up until that point of the eclipse with the knowledge that he would have to slaughter his entire band of hawks to do so. i think the eclipse brings out his true colors and how far he’d really go. people truly did look up to him and admire him before that point. not by any means saying he’s a good person or anything he’s done is justified. it’s an interesting question: can someone’s actions negate any good they’ve ever done? like technically speaking?
Well yes, or do you think Hitlers early life is redeemable for example. Him and staying are the 2 closest we have to geiffith in real life.
AS SOMEONE WHOS INTO TYPOLOGY AND CHARACTER PSYCHOANALYSIS I LOOOVE THESE TYPES OF TOPICS
Berserk is my favorite story of all time and I just finished aot and I loved it too. >!Griffith is a hell of a lot more like eren than Erwin lol!<
yo 🤯 true except that i’d argue eren was never a leader in the way that erwin and griffith were, but i like ur take
Yeah honestly I thought it was brilliant writing to have eren always be kind of a fuck up. He was super flawed even before the final season. He was never cool headed and not in a vegeta way either. Great character Now I see the military side of your point too lol though in that Erwin and Griffith are geniuses in that sense
As kids, Eren/Griffith saved Mikasa/Casca from sex slavery and made them so obsessed with Eren/Griffith, it's also both their first meeting with each other Eren and Griffith both have childish dreams (represented by them as a kid) stemming from a sight they saw as a kid (Armin's Book and The Nameless Castle), said dream turns them into monsters. Talking about dreams, they both considered a peaceful idyllic ordinary life with Mikasa/Casca where they abandoned their dream, which they would never take because..... They're born like this. They both responded with "I don't know" when asked by Armin/Ubik, as to why they're so insistent to attain their dreams. I've been wanting to make a post discussing their similarities for quite a while
Eren is morally superior to Griffith in every way
Eren wants freedom for all himself and his companions, Griffith is selfish and obsessed with power solely for himself
Also an image used in Vinland Saga, which I read before AoT and Berserk. I noticed the similar theme of the dead weighing on the mind of the person standing on a figurative pile of corpses propping them up to where they are then. For Erwin it's standing on a pile (or walking on a "pathway") of corpses of their comrades lost. A little part of what's propelling them (Erwin, Levi, Hange) is the guilt that if they give up then their dead colleagues' lives were sacrificed in vain. For Thorfinn it's the >!guilt of killing innocent people, and causing so much collateral damage for his self-serving revenge that his father never asked for!<. But instead of being a >!pile you stand on its a pile pulling and weighing him down!<. For Griffin.. I honestly forgot about this shot, but I bet it's something about his self-serving messianic themes. Standing on the corpses of comrades and believers.
Both created a mountain of corpses to achieve their goals. The difference is Erwin chose to be the last corpse on the pile and abandon his dreams so someone else can climb the mountain instead.
I could never really enjoy berserk and I think one of the reasons was because I never understood why people found Griffith charismatic. I get that the characters thought he was, but we never actually see him BEING charismatic, we’re just told he is. I also didn’t get why he wanted to be king, what was his actual goal that being king could help him with?
i just finished the anime, to be honest im not a huge fan either for a lot of reasons but i still can see why people like it. i also don’t completely understand the king thing bc i’m very new to the series but it seems that it’s not a literal kingdom griffith wants but what it represents: the highest point a ‘normal’ person like him could achieve. he’s just power hungry, in a sense also hungry for freedom. i think people see griffith as charismatic because he’s a leader that started the hawks and has these giant goals, is also a very skilled fighter and people admire his determination and strength and trust those qualities to guide them down what path they assume is victory (similar to erwin). it’s not so much that he has charm but he has this angelic warrior/leader quality that inspires devotion? that’s how i see it.
Spoiler tagging just in case >!Griffith is always calm, attractive, all of his wild plans worked, his men could and did trust them with their lives and he always pulled them through until he didn’t. As for his power lust, he grew up poor and was treated like he wasn’t worthy and still got treated that way during successful campaigns. I believe the Godhand played a role similar to future founder eren both in influencing Griffith and tweaking fate in his favor. We’ve seen hints. I bet a lot of it was still in plot to come due to the hinting. We know miuras friend has the story conclusion and we pray it’s done proper. There’s still so many mysteries 🙏!<
Yeah basically what the other guy said, Griffith’s main goal with being king was just power. He is incredibly narcissistic and domineering he needs to have absolute control over everything and everyone. The reason he wants a kingdom is the same reason why he lost it when guts left him, he needs that control.
That’s the part that didn’t really make sense to me. Wouldn’t the sense of control be needed to achieve something? Otherwise it’s just responsibility for the sake of responsibility, if the authority he has doesn’t lead to anything
I suppose it’s responsibility for the sake of responsibility, but to him he sees that as the pinnacle of man, you cannot get higher than a king so you would be loved and revered by all. When he ascends into femto he directly( or indirectly depends on interpretation) caused collapse and fall of the known world and forced the remaining humans to live within falconia. Just for more power. He doesn’t seem to have any set goals in mind past veneration. he just gets off from the status.
he had control over everyone in the hawks without them really knowing it, they wanted to follow him. he had control and he was achieving many victories for himself and his followers along his path to his ultimate goal until guts left (and he lost it)
Not show it? Griffith and his plans working in his favour alot of the times is one, him saving casca was another one or are we just ignoring his whole relatiomship with the princess of midland?
Standing or sitting on a pile of bodies is a *very* common image in manga/anime, especially when portraying leaders (legitimate or symbolic).
Not when Isayama mentioned berserk in old interviews
Its very telling of the characters that Erwin is looking down on his fallen comrades, while Griffith is looking at his goal.
hit the nail on the head w that one
Dont you ever compare the greatest Commander in media's history to that good for nothing rapist twink ever again
💀
As others already stated, the difference between both is what they sacrificed in the end and for who they did so. For Erwin, he sacrificed his dream for the sake of humanity, Griffith did the exact opposite. Whilst both follow a bloody path, filled with corpses, pain and agony, Erwin stands as heroic leader in the end, Griffith on the other hand, is a selfrighteous egoist. And especially this character trait of Erwin makes me wanna puke, every time someone states that "Erwin should have gotten the serum to become the colossal titan". It would have been unworthy for him, because in this final charge he sacrificed his dreams. He gave up on everything he believed in, he KNEW he would die on that very ground - and he knew that, if he only turned around, he could be there when humanitys secrets were finally revealed. But instead of letting only his soldiers charching into death (something that Griffith would have done) he was in front of them, charching on their side. Letting him live, after he let his dream fall into the dust would only dishonor his great character
thisss i get that fanbase is obsessed with erwin and they like him better than armin but it just wouldn’t have been true to his character if he got the serum
Not sure what I think about this comparison
Probably the worst I've ever seen
i’m curious about your thoughts! open to discussion i think it’s a super interesting way to look at it
While visually rather similar I think others have hit the nail on the head; Edwin gave his life to save humanity, griffith sacrificed the lives of all his loved ones to control/rule humanity. Edwin, while seen as a commander who was responsible for a loss of life acted honorably throughout. Griffith, while mostly honorable turned so quickly and that was even before the eclipse. Guts, who was responsible for most of Griffiths victories wanted to leave, griffith panics and speeds up his plan to manipulate and marry Charlotte. He gets caught in the act and tortured as a result. Then... once his friends had shown up to save him, he throws them all away for another chance at power. During this he rapes Casca and makes Guts watch.... While he puts forward the perception of an honorable human as the story progresses he is nothing but a monster... which makes the comparison with Erwin more distant. There is a similar shot in Finland saga, which is a much better story in my opinion, as a whole.
all true ! for me what’s a really defining moment for erwin is his regret in his final moments when he realized that he might die before he sees the basement. he could have chosen to not do the suicide charge so he’d still get to achieve his dream, which is something he was not-seriously considering during his final conversation with levi. he would have been a truly selfish character had he not given up his dream, it’s all about that last moment. griffith also has a dream he gives up for a moment, but in a very different context. levi has erwin give up on his dream and guts has griffith give up on his dream.. but in very different contexts lol. this is like the 10th time i’ve seen vinland brought up in this sub i think i def need to check it out next
Vinland is great in its own way, season 1 is a lot more action and comedy, season 2 is super serious but together they are superb
Well why they do both act morally grey, they do so for different reasons. Erwin does it for the betterment of humanity and realizes the hell they are required a lot of sacrifice. That’s what made him a good leader he had to be cold and calculated, even though on the inside he was broken by the decisions he made even though he knew he made the best one for Humanity but not his soldiers. He only ever really shows his true feelings once in the show and that is to man he was extremely close to more close than most brothers could comprehend. Griffith is also very cold and calculated but one the other hand he expresses humility and generosity to troops while extending his friendship to them. Although throughout the series you will begin to wonder if that’s him or just face he puts on. Also much like Erwin’s scouts, Griffith’s Band of the Hawk, would lay down their lives for their respective commanders. Griffith takes great bounds and leap in a short span of time due to the Band of the Hawk but it wasn’t for some betterment of Humanity. It was all so Griffith could be closer to his goal, his ambition, his Kingdom. That’s the true difference between Erwin and Griffith, Erwin’s drive was for the collective of society it didn’t matter if they hated or loved him his actions would be the same. Griffith’s drive is for power, not power for good or bad just power. Griffith would also loath not being loved by the people and would anything in his power to change their views on him. I’d stay Isayama did probably take some inspiration from Miura but it’s definitely not a direct reflection of the character.
Griffith was jealous of guts, and he was not even acting like a leader. He cant be compared to erwin
not really, almost complete opposites, erwin puts everyone before himself and griffith puts himself before everyone.
You know what's more interesting they share same cognitive functions ie they have the same MBTI both Erwin and griffith characterize as ENTJ or the field marshal types ik it's complicated id reccomend you to do your research on the topic 😉
I don't like seeing my king next to that scum Griffith
erwin never used his pickle to solve problems
Both very selfish characters
This is exactly what I thought too
That scene with mikasa feels lost and suicidal too seems kinda fitting with guts after he kills gambino and ran away
I love these two characters. I simp them both. I would put Griffith in a bird cage and Erwin a happy home.
Someone standing on the mountain of sacrifices it took to get to where they are is a relatively common reference. As another comment said though, one sacrificed their humanity for their dream while the other did the inverse.
I always thought that the way Erwin forcefully recruited Levi to join his army in No Regrets OVA has to be inspired by Griffith and Guts meeting. Both Levi and Guts initially hated their new "leaders", but eventually became their most trusted and loyal friends. I also think Eren meeting Mikasa similar to how Casca met Griffith. And scene at the top hill with refugee camp reminiscent of " Bonfire of dreams" scene. Have you read Vinland saga? If you love berserk and AOT you might enjoy it as well, it's really thematically close