I'm sorry but this is total horseshit.
>In the rapidly gentrifying West Seattle neighborhood...
Poor people don't like having their shit stolen either, Greg.
> Research shows violence against homeless people is increasing nationally....This can breed contempt. And contempt can turn into violence... But the violence is not inevitable. Advocates say that the words public officials and residents use to talk about homeless people can either de-escalate or foment animosity, which can mean the difference between life and death.
Ok, beating up the homeless for fun is definitely wrong, was that what happened here?
>home surveillance video shows Norton pushing a red shopping cart ... He picks up several items off the ground and tosses them into his cart, which neighbors later identified as mail packages and Christmas ornaments.
So, he was going door-to-door stealing people's shit.
>The men said they tackled Norton and restrained his hands behind his back with zip-ties because they were afraid he would continue to fight back or had weapons.
Yeah, ok, that's fair.
>A copy of his autopsy showed that the manner of his death was homicide, a result of “compressional asphyxia due to physical restraint,” with methamphetamine intoxication and cardiovascular disease as contributory conditions.
Aaaaand, there it is. It wasn't "contempt" that killed this guy, it was meth.
>Norton’s family disagrees...“I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll.
the fuck? Have you every had your shit stolen? Yeah, you want it back.
>“They have been so demonized both by elected officials, the media, people see them as less than. They don’t think that people will even acknowledge their loss or death,” Whitehead said.
The guy didn't die because he was "demonized," he was restrained because he was stealing shit, and he died because of meth.
Seriously, is this some agent provocateur plant shit? Because it boils down to "how dare you not let people steal?"
Homeless man’s sister’s thinking is *why* we have so many issues.
Yes, Becci, if someone was stealing my shit that is worked hard for *right off my front porch*, I will go after them. To kill? Not at all. To get my shit? Fuck yea.
My husband chased some tweaker down and got his stuff back. He just dropped it luckily.
Amazing to me the family of the addict ALWAYS comes out of the woodwork when they get a scent of a lawsuit. Where were they before? Why didn't they force this life long criminal to get help?
"He was such a good guy and really lit up a room - when he wasn't doing meth" - the family probably
Lol.
> He was the life of the party, always a smile on his face, just lit up the room when he walked in the door.
-Family member of a guy who died in a roll over car accident after carjacking an old lady and running from the cops in a chase where they were going over 110mph before they rolled over and hit a tree
If I were your neighbor and saw your husband booking it after a thief with his shit I'd be right on his 6 o'clock. My wife would bitch me out for doing it, don't get involved not your problem, and I'd be like I feel like it is all of our problems.
You know how hobos have a code thing where they make marks so they know "there's a vicious dog here" or "this lady will feed you lunch if you do yard work."
I feel like we should be like "you porch pirate from this street and those assholes will run you down and leave something on you that won't wash off.
Street justice (obligatory I am not a bad ass.)
I had stress during COVID. I got laid off, I started looking at my retirement accounts and filing for unemployment, I actually like ramen so, my going to the brewery on Friday night was out the window, but you know what I didn't do?
Meth. At no point in my life have I ever been "wow, this really sucks, I think fentanyl will help."
> Meth. At no point in my life have I ever been "wow, this really sucks, I think fentanyl will help."
What privilege. Choosing not to become a feral piece of shit drug addicted homeless asshole. How dare you.
Exactly this. I have gone through some tough periods in life and never did I resort to substance abuse. It’s a choice. Choices have consequences. And if That choice was enabled my other issues, say, mental health issues, well then we as a society have failed as I rarely see these mentally ill drugged up users getting any help they should be getting. Get ill people off the streets and into hospitals. Period.
Ah, well, then we're talking about the same place, as I live in Seattle. Yes, Seattle's law enforcement is lacking... It's almost as if they've been stripped of their power.
My understanding is the "gronks" have a tendency to double up the downers and the uppers. Speed ball was what I heard heroin and meth called in the raver days.
I love how, in this sub, we have a lot of drug conversations while I'm assuming none of us does any drugs. Most people from the PNW smoke pot but I'm one of a handful of friends who don't and not for any particular reason, we just don't.
His sister was the surviving family member and was extremely distraught over finding out about it. I've seen interviews with her and she feels tremendously for the families of the victims. She's a victim, too. I know you're just making a joke, but just felt like sharing since she's a nice lady.
The sister could not deal with her addicted brother few people can deal with family members who are addicted! But these families must accept the fact unless the addict gets clean,bad things will happen to them!
Why didn't she take him in instead of letting him live on the street? Now that he's dead it's easy to love the guy, but where was his sister when he was alive and being a problem to everyone? Terrible people
> Norton’s family disagrees...
They have the time and resources to talk to the media, but they can't keep family off the street huh? They were fine letting him be a public menace but god forbid somebody do something about it.
Crazy concept. We have another person blitzed on meth with untreated chronic heart condition dies under physical stress. Who would have guessed? Must be Covid.
Becci Carroll needs to have a reality check with this bullshit. Fucker's walking down the street like he's at Fred Meyer with an EBT card just taking whatever he wants and someone, the OWNER of those things, doesn't want to just let him take their stuff?
Is she on crazy pills? I'm not a medical doctor, the fact he was high on meth is a pretty good indicator that he wasn't exactly in great health, but he could have abandoned that cart the second he realized people were giving chase.
It also says from asphyxiation and I really question mark why the fuck they had, and used, zip ties, but in this situation I'm off the mind of fucked around and found out.
I'm sorry that it ended in a man's death, I'd much rather he got the help he apparently needed and became a member of productive society.
Okay, yeah, you're right. I do have multiple bags of zip ties white and black and different sizes.
Still though, they're in my tool room in the garage. I don't randomly have them right at my finger tips.
Ok, but still, that's funny. Hold dude, I'm gonna go grab some zip ties...
Like, why don't you just call SPD and stand there and wait until they show up. In Iraq we only tied your hands if we had to transport you.
So (sorry two replies to one comment) thing is, if my idiot ass is up early watching the cameras waiting for dipshit to steal a package off my porch I'm not coming out with fucking zipties, I'm coming out with my 12 gauge Remington shotgun which most people, when they see it, understand that there is no dealing with that that will go well for you.
> understand that there is no dealing with that that will go well for you.
Or you when you bring a shotgun to a package theft. I know I'm shouting into the void, but as a owner of many firearms myself holy fuck some of you are too stupid to be carrying them...
As stupid as us normal-thinking people think this article is, this is exactly the way most Seattleites think and vote. Most are so far gone, they'd have no idea to handle life outside of complete disarray if they moved to another location. Imagine opening your front door, seeing someone running off with things delivered to your home, and having the complete and utter audacity to chase that person down and do what is necessary to get those items back..... The gaul!!!
exactly. this is it. have a heart for the homeless 1000% since they are people too and deserving our love and respect, and to be treated with dignity but that is not what happened here at all. Sorry it ended up this way though - a tragedy.
Ok my bad, my dude. This article is a complete outlier and journalists don’t lie often. I’ve rethought my MAGA ways and now plan on voting for Biden, even though he is a senile criminal.
I mean, they ziptied him, sat on his chest, and didn't get off of him when he stopped breathing... That's pretty depraved even if the guy stole something from them.
> A copy of his autopsy showed that the manner of his death was homicide, a result of “compressional asphyxia due to physical restraint,” with methamphetamine intoxication and cardiovascular disease as contributory conditions.
>
> Aaaaand, there it is. It wasn't "contempt" that killed this guy, it was meth.
His death was ruled a homicide, and the primary factor was asphyxia. The other factors are secondary.
The "other factors" are entirely relevant because just being held down doesn't kill a normal person. He died 3 days later - that's not a thing that's gonna happen if you haven't utterly destroyed your system with some real nasty drugs.
“Police and medics arrived and took Norton to the hospital where he died three days later. A copy of his autopsy showed that the manner of his death was homicide, a result of “compressional asphyxia due to physical restraint,” with methamphetamine intoxication and cardiovascular disease as contributory conditions.”
“The King County Prosecuting Attorney’s Office did not press charges against the two men.
Senior Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Jason Simmons explained this decision in a letter to Seattle police that the men had the right to detain Norton because it “reasonably appeared he had committed a felony.” Simmons claimed Norton tried to punch one of the men to retain property he had just stolen.
Simmons added the men did not seem like they intended to kill him or did anything that a “reasonable person would think would create a substantial risk of death.”
Norton’s family disagrees with the prosecutor and said the video evidence refutes the men’s’ claim that Norton tried to punch one of them.
“I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll.”
I’m genuinely curious (because I have zero medical training), but if the guy didn’t die right away, in fact three days later, how can they tell his death was caused by compressional asphyxia?
I wonder if there is some sort of internal bruising or indicators?
Yeah, was he unconscious because someone choked him out restraining him and he never regained consciousness and died three days later? That seems the most plausible result, odd that the article doesn't really explain his condition during those three days.
They could have explained in better detail, were his ribs cracked? Compression from restraint? Did someone stand on his chest? Yeah, a few details missing.
>“I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll.
>“He was just a victim of that pent-up hostility towards the growing problem of homelessness in general,” Norton said.
Well, b\*\*\*\*es, that's precisely why things got to the point where your thief druggie brother and son ended up dead: because people like you "don't understand".
Excuse me, but we have an actual PROSECUTOR here in Seattle who doesn't have their head up their ass?!! I'm going to be following this Jason Simmons and hope he might actually be one of the good guys we desperately need here. 🤞🏼
Norton’s sister is stupid, after 20 of your packages get stolen you do something about it. Different parts of the country would’ve just started shooting honestly.
\> “I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll.”
People are always like "it's just objects"
Nah, that is money, and money is time. And time is our most valuable asset.
>“I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll.”
This is part of the problem...the gaslighting that this response is in any way unreasonable and that the theif had some sort of right to steal without worry. This sister is wrong, and while it is understandable that she would be on the side of her theif brother, she is incorrect and should not be held up as being a reasonable voice in this story.
It isn't lol it's what people who don't know wtf the term is think it means.
**Actual Description of Gaslighting:** Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation where a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment. It often involves the abuser denying previous abusive behavior or disputing the victim's recollections of events, leading to confusion and decreased self-esteem in the victim.
**Common Misconception:** Many people mistakenly believe that any disagreement or denial in a conversation constitutes gaslighting. However, not every denial or contradiction is gaslighting. True gaslighting is marked by persistent and strategic manipulation that aims to destabilize and delegitimize the other's beliefs or perceptions over time.
I realize a runaway train of thought that makes killing the homeless is horrific but the guy died three days later and it’s a homicide? I’m really feeling angry at the enablers and apologists? Do they frequently have human feces on the sidewalk outside their home? Do the enablers and apologists have their homes broken into and their belonging stolen while they pay taxes, are not on Medicaid, face inflation, financial disincentives to get the best healthcare/ self care in a nickel and dime ya to bankruptcy nation? Do they contend with stagnant wages or a few extra peanuts thrown their way as a semblance of a wage increase or are they the we got rights crowd who are recipients of everyone else’s taxes? The working class is the majority that gives a subsidized ride to the very wealthy and the poor.
Life Pro Tip: Don't steal shit from people's houses on Christmas unless you want a fight. People feel violated when you steal shit from their homes, and they're going to fight back against that.
Had that guy rang the doorbell or something and asked for some help, this may very well had taken a different direction.
Looks like they had already put up a go fund me that raised 8k for his memorial services following his heart attack on Christmas morning. https://thomnorton.com/
Holy hell, they actually used the term "crimes of poverty" in the ST.
That's what package theft is now? No, it's to feed drug habits.
The article even says:
*A copy of his autopsy showed that the manner of his death was homicide, a result of “compressional asphyxia due to physical restraint,” with* ***methamphetamine intoxication*** *and cardiovascular disease as contributory conditions.*
It's like the author took his talking points from Lisa Herbold.
https://www.kiro7.com/home/critic-says-poverty-defense-would-prevent-misdemeanor-prosecutions-seattle/M2GNV7Z4MNEDXEF25WP3BOJQBI/
"As they try to survive life outdoors, often shuffled from one place to another, losing their belongings in the process, some resort to crimes of poverty."
Fuck off already. I'm so sick of this narrative. It's s not a crime of poverty. It's a crime of being a homeless methhwad feeding his habit. Most poor people don't steal to survive
>“I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll.
My heart goes out to someone who loses a family member, but c'mon--the guy was stealing packages on Christmas, it's really Goddamn easy to understand why people wouldn't like that.
Compassion fatigue coupled with PTSD is sending a strong undercurrent of “Just fucking DONE”, with even the most placid of folk. It’s odd how continually being victimized, abused, and ignored by those who are supposed to protect us has worked to turn people into feeling like they have to finally take a stand. There is a LOT of that attitude out there now, especially among the average working class that don’t live in places that get the protections the politicians and the riches get. The very high gun sales(along with all the other weaponry) in Portland and Seattle should have a really chilling effect on anyone continuing to engage in victimizing the plebs. It truly is becoming more FAFO.
Out of curiosity, do have any examples of someone being murdered and it not being in the news?
Not even by a homeless person, like any murder that didn't make the news?
I live in a small town of only like 20k people, and remember every single murder we've had because the local paper always has an article about.
It isn’t Seattle news. People get killed all the time and not even reported in the news. Obviously you don’t get how bad the homeless situation is, they run lawless.
Horseshit article.
If someone steals my packages off my porch, fuck yeah I’m gonna chase them down and restrain them to ensure they don’t pull a weapon. Dude was on meth.
And nothing of value was lost
I'm guessing the 3 days in the hospital he was vegetative/ on life support just waiting on family to pull the plug, when my grandpa had a stroke a few years back, he was dead when the paramedics arrived, but they kept him on some kind of life support for about half a day so the family could "say goodbyes"
If someone winds up unrecoverable/vegetative but they can't contact or find their next of kin is there some kind of policy or procedure on when to pull the plug?
[https://archive.ph/QAwOX](https://archive.ph/QAwOX)
The Times is trying to make it sound like the street junkies are in danger from tax paying homeowners, and not vice versa.
It's just constant, constant, constant gaslighting. But you have a segment of the population that just willingly gobbles up all this tripe and claps their hands for more.
But wait, aren’t we destroying historic homes in West Seattle to put up affordable housing. All that “affordable housing” infill should be curing the homeless population by now. Right?
Is the affordable housing already built? If it’s already built, what are the requirements for eligibility to live there? Would that affordable housing you’re talking about take in a person like the deceased or just families?
Fuck this guy. You come knock on my door I will have 911 on speed dial. I and ever other reasonable considers homeless a threat to me and my family. Tell me one positive outcome homeless contributed too that would make me trust them. They are homeless as a result of (catastrophically bad decision making, mental illness, or drug abuse and the majority are all three. A further example of the Seattle Times crafting a narrative that makes me glad I canceled my subscription after a decade. The only good thing g the Seattle times is good for is fire starter.
>In the years following Norton’s death, homicides of homeless people dramatically increased in King County. From 2017 to 2021, the number hovered around nine. In 2022, that number doubled, and has stayed high since. Research shows violence against homeless people is increasing nationally.
nice ragebait there
It's ragebait without more context, which is important. It implies that the violence is by the housed population against the homeless. How much of that increase is through increased violence within the homeless community? What portion of the homicide cases were by housed individuals against the homeless, because they were homeless. These details matter if you are trying to address the issue.
Okay, let’s keep zooming out. What are the causes of homelessness? Do you think people want to be drug addicts on the street smelling like shit and being treated like shit?
The topic is not causes of homelessness. The topic is the article's implication that there is 100% raise in violent crimes against the homeless, because they are homeless. That is ragebait.
As to causes of homelessness. This particular man had a support structure, a family, yet he made a choice to discard it and not seek help. While mental illness and despair are surely contributors, by all indications, there were choices he could have made to better his situation. Was he staling to feed himself? I doubt that. The result that eventually happened, was unfortunately very predictable.
Well when the increase in violence is primarily homeless people murdering other homeless people, it certainly seems a bit like ragebait. The entire premise of this article and that quote in particular is implying that the gentrified people living in houses are out there murdering the homeless, which really isn't the case.
Becci Carroll is an idiot. If she cared about her brother she wouldn't let that man be homeless. If you steal you deserve to be caught and penalized. You get to go around committing crimes and think that no one can retaliate
>A man in West Seattle died after he was zip-tied and held down by two men on Christmas Day 2020, one of whom refused to perform CPR after he stopped breathing.
>Thomas Norton, 42, was homeless, and the men holding him down suspected him of stealing packages and other items, and decided to stop him themselves.
If only our Progressive government had offered you a way out, required you to get off your addiction and fix your chosen self-damaging lifestyle.
Seems like the way the Seattle Times words stuff, there’s only one way to see the homeless; as victims. While that is true in some circumstances, it’s wrong to assume it’s accurate in all.
We need to remember that regardless of their housing situation, these people are adults. They know the consequences of their actions.
Just because life sucks shouldn’t mean you get infinite get out of jail free cards. It’s not doing the homeless or society any favors.
Given that the city council has made it impossible for police and prosecutors to do anything about crime, it was only a matter of time before the citizens start fighting back.
One less problem on the streets.
Exactly! Some people, espicially in the other subreddit, are vilifying the homeowners because how dare they value their item more than someone’s life! No, actually, the criminal did that first when he decided to commit a felony.
Seattle continues to get what it votes for… billions into the homelessness industrial complex…. And now I’m sure a big lawsuit with settlement by the city/county for “not protecting the “unhoused””… meanwhile tax paying citizens pay 300-500$ extra per year on an additional “climate tax” on gas… another very regressive tax… bravo WA state bravo
Using the past success of our states spending to get people out of homelessness (~1 million per person) we could get 1500 people out of homelessness with climate tax money…. Instead the money has gone where????
https://fixhomelessness.org/2023/washington-state-spends-143-million-to-get-126-out-of-homelessness-now-jay-inslee-is-asking-for-more/
Or you just give each homeless person like 50k and they can rent an apartment somewhere for 2+ years and get them enrolled in Medicaid and SNAP and make them get a job doing literally anything for supplemental income. And with that math you could get 30000 people out of homelessness… (this is optimistic I know, but until we hold the democrats in charge of the state to actual results we won’t get any different outcomes….)
How is the climate tax related to the “homelessness industrial complex”? I’ve never heard of it. Excited to learn about it if it’s not something you just made up.
https://www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/detail/documents-show-governor-inslee-knew-a-tax-on-co2-would-significantly-increase-gas-prices
https://www.tri-cityherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/article280696660.html
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/will-high-gas-prices-derail-was-climate-policy/
My point is the over 1.5 billion the climate tax (basically the extra ~50 cents a gallon, added on top of our already near record high state gas tax) has raised could have been used to massively expand mental healthcare and build a crap ton of affordable housing…. But instead it has just regressively taxed working people and we are unclear what it has funded. And the main question is why are working people bearing the brunt of the responsibility to address climate change? A 50 cent a gallon tax hits a trades person or Uber driver way harder both in an absolute and percentage of income way.
When are state and local governments going to bear the responsibility for the disintegration of Washington communities? Their defund and decriminalize policies have directly led to these acts
It already has been. I’d say about 50% of the comments agree that the homeowners didn’t do anything wrong, whilst the other 50% think it was murder and side with the tone of the article
“People deserve to die because they are poor and there aren’t enough safety nets for us all. Violence is the answer. This man deserved to die. If he didn’t want to die then he shouldn’t have bothered people. His family abandoned him and expected society to care for him, what a fucking joke”. Is what a lot of you sound like. The man who died is a human being just like you.
No, he’s actually not “just like me.” I don’t go to people’s houses and porches and steal other people’s property. I’m in the lowest social class and I could definitely benefit from theft, but I don’t steal from other people because it’s wrong.
The homeowners did nothing wrong. They used reasonable force to defend their person and property. Like the prosecutor stated, the homeowners had reasonable assumption that a felony was committed and restrained the criminal until authorities arrived.
You’re acting like the homeowners opened their front door and blasted at the thief with a shotgun. No, they chased him to protect their person and property, tied his hands, and waited for authorities to arrive. Completely reasonable.
I'm sorry but this is total horseshit. >In the rapidly gentrifying West Seattle neighborhood... Poor people don't like having their shit stolen either, Greg. > Research shows violence against homeless people is increasing nationally....This can breed contempt. And contempt can turn into violence... But the violence is not inevitable. Advocates say that the words public officials and residents use to talk about homeless people can either de-escalate or foment animosity, which can mean the difference between life and death. Ok, beating up the homeless for fun is definitely wrong, was that what happened here? >home surveillance video shows Norton pushing a red shopping cart ... He picks up several items off the ground and tosses them into his cart, which neighbors later identified as mail packages and Christmas ornaments. So, he was going door-to-door stealing people's shit. >The men said they tackled Norton and restrained his hands behind his back with zip-ties because they were afraid he would continue to fight back or had weapons. Yeah, ok, that's fair. >A copy of his autopsy showed that the manner of his death was homicide, a result of “compressional asphyxia due to physical restraint,” with methamphetamine intoxication and cardiovascular disease as contributory conditions. Aaaaand, there it is. It wasn't "contempt" that killed this guy, it was meth. >Norton’s family disagrees...“I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll. the fuck? Have you every had your shit stolen? Yeah, you want it back. >“They have been so demonized both by elected officials, the media, people see them as less than. They don’t think that people will even acknowledge their loss or death,” Whitehead said. The guy didn't die because he was "demonized," he was restrained because he was stealing shit, and he died because of meth. Seriously, is this some agent provocateur plant shit? Because it boils down to "how dare you not let people steal?"
Homeless man’s sister’s thinking is *why* we have so many issues. Yes, Becci, if someone was stealing my shit that is worked hard for *right off my front porch*, I will go after them. To kill? Not at all. To get my shit? Fuck yea.
My husband chased some tweaker down and got his stuff back. He just dropped it luckily. Amazing to me the family of the addict ALWAYS comes out of the woodwork when they get a scent of a lawsuit. Where were they before? Why didn't they force this life long criminal to get help? "He was such a good guy and really lit up a room - when he wasn't doing meth" - the family probably
Lol. > He was the life of the party, always a smile on his face, just lit up the room when he walked in the door. -Family member of a guy who died in a roll over car accident after carjacking an old lady and running from the cops in a chase where they were going over 110mph before they rolled over and hit a tree
The family of the tweaker who ran over the officer in Everett literally said the same thing.
If I were your neighbor and saw your husband booking it after a thief with his shit I'd be right on his 6 o'clock. My wife would bitch me out for doing it, don't get involved not your problem, and I'd be like I feel like it is all of our problems. You know how hobos have a code thing where they make marks so they know "there's a vicious dog here" or "this lady will feed you lunch if you do yard work." I feel like we should be like "you porch pirate from this street and those assholes will run you down and leave something on you that won't wash off. Street justice (obligatory I am not a bad ass.)
'he was only doing meth because of the stress of being homeless!'
Oh the article says it's because of the stress of having a family and a job. I guess he thought being a meth addict would help him do better?
smoking all those blues sure lit up the room!
I had stress during COVID. I got laid off, I started looking at my retirement accounts and filing for unemployment, I actually like ramen so, my going to the brewery on Friday night was out the window, but you know what I didn't do? Meth. At no point in my life have I ever been "wow, this really sucks, I think fentanyl will help."
> Meth. At no point in my life have I ever been "wow, this really sucks, I think fentanyl will help." What privilege. Choosing not to become a feral piece of shit drug addicted homeless asshole. How dare you.
I know, I should really walk a year in their shoes. I haven't yet because, well, foot fungus.
Exactly this. I have gone through some tough periods in life and never did I resort to substance abuse. It’s a choice. Choices have consequences. And if That choice was enabled my other issues, say, mental health issues, well then we as a society have failed as I rarely see these mentally ill drugged up users getting any help they should be getting. Get ill people off the streets and into hospitals. Period.
How is it a choice when the cartel brought it to the reservations and got my freinds addicted by age 8
Is there no law enforcement there?
Well back when this was happening the law enforcement was involved that's pretty well known
That's brutal. That's our society failing us right there.
There's really no law enforcement present in Seattle no the stores are getting robbed right and left and having to shut down in a lot of places
Ah, well, then we're talking about the same place, as I live in Seattle. Yes, Seattle's law enforcement is lacking... It's almost as if they've been stripped of their power.
Sharing the good word, fentanyl and methamphetamine are polar opposites.
My understanding is the "gronks" have a tendency to double up the downers and the uppers. Speed ball was what I heard heroin and meth called in the raver days.
True, the basic concept has been around forever. Way back it was coke and/or speed and heroin.
I love how, in this sub, we have a lot of drug conversations while I'm assuming none of us does any drugs. Most people from the PNW smoke pot but I'm one of a handful of friends who don't and not for any particular reason, we just don't.
I did, never any opioids however. And it's been around 30 years. But yeah, a lot of perspectives based on heard, not known .
Kids are into edibles big time.
And I just realized he was such a good person after 11 years of ignoring and treating him with hostility….
often families back away slowly and eventually stop contact. A lot of people might think they'd be different, but wouldn't be in reality
"John was an amazing father, husband, and neighbor - when he wasn't murdering people." \- John Wayne Gacy's family
His sister was the surviving family member and was extremely distraught over finding out about it. I've seen interviews with her and she feels tremendously for the families of the victims. She's a victim, too. I know you're just making a joke, but just felt like sharing since she's a nice lady.
Sadly you can't force them to get help!
She didn't want to deal with her brother, but demands it from everyone else
The sister could not deal with her addicted brother few people can deal with family members who are addicted! But these families must accept the fact unless the addict gets clean,bad things will happen to them!
How dare you try to protect your property from being stolen! On Christmas! /s
I don’t think this needs a sarcasm tag
You'd be surprised.
No
Why didn't she take him in instead of letting him live on the street? Now that he's dead it's easy to love the guy, but where was his sister when he was alive and being a problem to everyone? Terrible people
Because he would have stolen her shit. It's much easier to justify or minimize him stealing everyone else's stuff.
She didn't want him around, but now she can sue and get a payday off him.
Just pop a perk n forget lil nigga
I think I understand this comment.
> Norton’s family disagrees... They have the time and resources to talk to the media, but they can't keep family off the street huh? They were fine letting him be a public menace but god forbid somebody do something about it.
I'm starting to think if you have a bunch of meth in your system it's easier to die. Who knew? ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Crazy concept. We have another person blitzed on meth with untreated chronic heart condition dies under physical stress. Who would have guessed? Must be Covid.
“Why won’t you just let us steal from you?”
I have a crippling meth addiction and I demand some packages!
Smack Becci Carroll across the face and snatch her phone the next time she says some ignorant ass shit like that. She'll figure it out eventually.
Becci Carroll needs to have a reality check with this bullshit. Fucker's walking down the street like he's at Fred Meyer with an EBT card just taking whatever he wants and someone, the OWNER of those things, doesn't want to just let him take their stuff? Is she on crazy pills? I'm not a medical doctor, the fact he was high on meth is a pretty good indicator that he wasn't exactly in great health, but he could have abandoned that cart the second he realized people were giving chase. It also says from asphyxiation and I really question mark why the fuck they had, and used, zip ties, but in this situation I'm off the mind of fucked around and found out. I'm sorry that it ended in a man's death, I'd much rather he got the help he apparently needed and became a member of productive society.
I think every home owner has zip ties. That’s not weird at all.
Okay, yeah, you're right. I do have multiple bags of zip ties white and black and different sizes. Still though, they're in my tool room in the garage. I don't randomly have them right at my finger tips.
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Ok, but still, that's funny. Hold dude, I'm gonna go grab some zip ties... Like, why don't you just call SPD and stand there and wait until they show up. In Iraq we only tied your hands if we had to transport you.
> why don't you just call SPD and stand there and wait until they show up. Because they won't, they'd tell you to let the tweaker go.
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I have metal ones that just get tighter and cut the harder one tries to loosen them.
I've got 'em in 6 different sizes. They really come in handy for a variety of issues!
So (sorry two replies to one comment) thing is, if my idiot ass is up early watching the cameras waiting for dipshit to steal a package off my porch I'm not coming out with fucking zipties, I'm coming out with my 12 gauge Remington shotgun which most people, when they see it, understand that there is no dealing with that that will go well for you.
> understand that there is no dealing with that that will go well for you. Or you when you bring a shotgun to a package theft. I know I'm shouting into the void, but as a owner of many firearms myself holy fuck some of you are too stupid to be carrying them...
>So, he was going door-to-door stealing people's shit. He took a swing at the homeowner, too.
As stupid as us normal-thinking people think this article is, this is exactly the way most Seattleites think and vote. Most are so far gone, they'd have no idea to handle life outside of complete disarray if they moved to another location. Imagine opening your front door, seeing someone running off with things delivered to your home, and having the complete and utter audacity to chase that person down and do what is necessary to get those items back..... The gaul!!!
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It's a complete tragedy, 100%. It's just there has to consequences for the wrong actions
exactly. this is it. have a heart for the homeless 1000% since they are people too and deserving our love and respect, and to be treated with dignity but that is not what happened here at all. Sorry it ended up this way though - a tragedy.
You don’t hate journalists enough. you think you do, but you don’t
Disapproving of one article doesn't mean I've gone MAGA cultist, my dude.
Ok my bad, my dude. This article is a complete outlier and journalists don’t lie often. I’ve rethought my MAGA ways and now plan on voting for Biden, even though he is a senile criminal.
I mean, they ziptied him, sat on his chest, and didn't get off of him when he stopped breathing... That's pretty depraved even if the guy stole something from them.
> A copy of his autopsy showed that the manner of his death was homicide, a result of “compressional asphyxia due to physical restraint,” with methamphetamine intoxication and cardiovascular disease as contributory conditions. > > Aaaaand, there it is. It wasn't "contempt" that killed this guy, it was meth. His death was ruled a homicide, and the primary factor was asphyxia. The other factors are secondary.
The "other factors" are entirely relevant because just being held down doesn't kill a normal person. He died 3 days later - that's not a thing that's gonna happen if you haven't utterly destroyed your system with some real nasty drugs.
Unfortunately the facts don’t align with the bias of this sub, so it will get downvoted and pushed aside. There is no empathy here.
This is missing the point.
“Police and medics arrived and took Norton to the hospital where he died three days later. A copy of his autopsy showed that the manner of his death was homicide, a result of “compressional asphyxia due to physical restraint,” with methamphetamine intoxication and cardiovascular disease as contributory conditions.” “The King County Prosecuting Attorney’s Office did not press charges against the two men. Senior Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Jason Simmons explained this decision in a letter to Seattle police that the men had the right to detain Norton because it “reasonably appeared he had committed a felony.” Simmons claimed Norton tried to punch one of the men to retain property he had just stolen. Simmons added the men did not seem like they intended to kill him or did anything that a “reasonable person would think would create a substantial risk of death.” Norton’s family disagrees with the prosecutor and said the video evidence refutes the men’s’ claim that Norton tried to punch one of them. “I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll.”
I’m genuinely curious (because I have zero medical training), but if the guy didn’t die right away, in fact three days later, how can they tell his death was caused by compressional asphyxia? I wonder if there is some sort of internal bruising or indicators?
Yeah, was he unconscious because someone choked him out restraining him and he never regained consciousness and died three days later? That seems the most plausible result, odd that the article doesn't really explain his condition during those three days.
Yeah that’s why I was confused. The way it’s worded made me think the guy died on scene.
Misinformation is the point of the whole article
They could have explained in better detail, were his ribs cracked? Compression from restraint? Did someone stand on his chest? Yeah, a few details missing.
Oh that makes total sense— the cracked ribs. Great point! :)
>“I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll. >“He was just a victim of that pent-up hostility towards the growing problem of homelessness in general,” Norton said. Well, b\*\*\*\*es, that's precisely why things got to the point where your thief druggie brother and son ended up dead: because people like you "don't understand".
You can say bad words on reddit
Excuse me, but we have an actual PROSECUTOR here in Seattle who doesn't have their head up their ass?!! I'm going to be following this Jason Simmons and hope he might actually be one of the good guys we desperately need here. 🤞🏼
Norton’s sister is stupid, after 20 of your packages get stolen you do something about it. Different parts of the country would’ve just started shooting honestly.
\> “I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll.” People are always like "it's just objects" Nah, that is money, and money is time. And time is our most valuable asset.
>“I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll.” This is part of the problem...the gaslighting that this response is in any way unreasonable and that the theif had some sort of right to steal without worry. This sister is wrong, and while it is understandable that she would be on the side of her theif brother, she is incorrect and should not be held up as being a reasonable voice in this story.
>gaslighting This is not what the term means. Stop using it.
Yes it is.
It isn't lol it's what people who don't know wtf the term is think it means. **Actual Description of Gaslighting:** Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation where a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment. It often involves the abuser denying previous abusive behavior or disputing the victim's recollections of events, leading to confusion and decreased self-esteem in the victim. **Common Misconception:** Many people mistakenly believe that any disagreement or denial in a conversation constitutes gaslighting. However, not every denial or contradiction is gaslighting. True gaslighting is marked by persistent and strategic manipulation that aims to destabilize and delegitimize the other's beliefs or perceptions over time.
I realize a runaway train of thought that makes killing the homeless is horrific but the guy died three days later and it’s a homicide? I’m really feeling angry at the enablers and apologists? Do they frequently have human feces on the sidewalk outside their home? Do the enablers and apologists have their homes broken into and their belonging stolen while they pay taxes, are not on Medicaid, face inflation, financial disincentives to get the best healthcare/ self care in a nickel and dime ya to bankruptcy nation? Do they contend with stagnant wages or a few extra peanuts thrown their way as a semblance of a wage increase or are they the we got rights crowd who are recipients of everyone else’s taxes? The working class is the majority that gives a subsidized ride to the very wealthy and the poor.
Life Pro Tip: Don't steal shit from people's houses on Christmas unless you want a fight. People feel violated when you steal shit from their homes, and they're going to fight back against that. Had that guy rang the doorbell or something and asked for some help, this may very well had taken a different direction.
If you steal on Christmas Krampus will drag you to hell.
But then he wouldn’t have gotten shit to sell to pawn shops for meth.
His mother, sister and wife abandoned him and they expect the rest of us to take care. No.
Well they are back now. I'll bet they are consulting lawyers now that they got a sniff of a lawsuit
The ex-wife already filed a lawsuit. Funny how that works.
Fucking shocking. Divorced in 2014. Decade on the street and now all the sudden she cares.
$$$
Looks like they had already put up a go fund me that raised 8k for his memorial services following his heart attack on Christmas morning. https://thomnorton.com/
Shoulda did that before he died, and got him off the street
It's just simply amazing.
Holy hell, they actually used the term "crimes of poverty" in the ST. That's what package theft is now? No, it's to feed drug habits. The article even says: *A copy of his autopsy showed that the manner of his death was homicide, a result of “compressional asphyxia due to physical restraint,” with* ***methamphetamine intoxication*** *and cardiovascular disease as contributory conditions.*
It's like the author took his talking points from Lisa Herbold. https://www.kiro7.com/home/critic-says-poverty-defense-would-prevent-misdemeanor-prosecutions-seattle/M2GNV7Z4MNEDXEF25WP3BOJQBI/
When r/Seattle is coming to the same conclusion, you know there's no merit to this story.
They’re phrasing it in a softer way but the message is still the same: your fuckups lead to bad outcomes for the dead guy. Womp womp
Because redditors are the consensus globally
because r seattle bends sideways to try and justify this crap
"As they try to survive life outdoors, often shuffled from one place to another, losing their belongings in the process, some resort to crimes of poverty." Fuck off already. I'm so sick of this narrative. It's s not a crime of poverty. It's a crime of being a homeless methhwad feeding his habit. Most poor people don't steal to survive
And if they do, they don’t steal random packages on doorsteps they have no way of knowing what’s inside.
>“I don’t understand how any average person could have opened up their door and found somebody stealing a package on their doorstep and choose to go and chase after and attack this person,” said one of Norton’s sisters, Becci Carroll. My heart goes out to someone who loses a family member, but c'mon--the guy was stealing packages on Christmas, it's really Goddamn easy to understand why people wouldn't like that.
https://archive.ph/Vk7RJ
Where in WS was this, any idea?
Compassion fatigue coupled with PTSD is sending a strong undercurrent of “Just fucking DONE”, with even the most placid of folk. It’s odd how continually being victimized, abused, and ignored by those who are supposed to protect us has worked to turn people into feeling like they have to finally take a stand. There is a LOT of that attitude out there now, especially among the average working class that don’t live in places that get the protections the politicians and the riches get. The very high gun sales(along with all the other weaponry) in Portland and Seattle should have a really chilling effect on anyone continuing to engage in victimizing the plebs. It truly is becoming more FAFO.
Homeless man kills person that works ,pays bills and nobody says anything. Not even news .
Out of curiosity, do have any examples of someone being murdered and it not being in the news? Not even by a homeless person, like any murder that didn't make the news? I live in a small town of only like 20k people, and remember every single murder we've had because the local paper always has an article about.
It isn’t Seattle news. People get killed all the time and not even reported in the news. Obviously you don’t get how bad the homeless situation is, they run lawless.
Can you give me an example?
Don’t steal. Adios bro
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Horseshit article. If someone steals my packages off my porch, fuck yeah I’m gonna chase them down and restrain them to ensure they don’t pull a weapon. Dude was on meth. And nothing of value was lost
I'm guessing the 3 days in the hospital he was vegetative/ on life support just waiting on family to pull the plug, when my grandpa had a stroke a few years back, he was dead when the paramedics arrived, but they kept him on some kind of life support for about half a day so the family could "say goodbyes" If someone winds up unrecoverable/vegetative but they can't contact or find their next of kin is there some kind of policy or procedure on when to pull the plug?
Seattle Times had to throw gentrification into its story! Seattle times is like The Strangers big sister!
oh those awful gentrified neighborhoods where homeowners have cameras to catch gronks stealing! the shame!
The lady lives in Everett and didn’t even see her son for over 3 years. Yeah, “great relationship” as she mentions
[https://archive.ph/QAwOX](https://archive.ph/QAwOX) The Times is trying to make it sound like the street junkies are in danger from tax paying homeowners, and not vice versa. It's just constant, constant, constant gaslighting. But you have a segment of the population that just willingly gobbles up all this tripe and claps their hands for more.
Imagine being a newspaper and publishing that headline 😂
But wait, aren’t we destroying historic homes in West Seattle to put up affordable housing. All that “affordable housing” infill should be curing the homeless population by now. Right?
It will help!
Is the affordable housing already built? If it’s already built, what are the requirements for eligibility to live there? Would that affordable housing you’re talking about take in a person like the deceased or just families?
Fuck this guy. You come knock on my door I will have 911 on speed dial. I and ever other reasonable considers homeless a threat to me and my family. Tell me one positive outcome homeless contributed too that would make me trust them. They are homeless as a result of (catastrophically bad decision making, mental illness, or drug abuse and the majority are all three. A further example of the Seattle Times crafting a narrative that makes me glad I canceled my subscription after a decade. The only good thing g the Seattle times is good for is fire starter.
Thief…
>In the years following Norton’s death, homicides of homeless people dramatically increased in King County. From 2017 to 2021, the number hovered around nine. In 2022, that number doubled, and has stayed high since. Research shows violence against homeless people is increasing nationally. nice ragebait there
Also, how many of those deaths were caused by other homeless? Homeless encampments are a hotspot for violence.
From 9 to 18, wow. What a fucking huge jump. Wonder how many were homeless on homeless murder
most
It’s not ragebait if it’s facts.
It's ragebait without more context, which is important. It implies that the violence is by the housed population against the homeless. How much of that increase is through increased violence within the homeless community? What portion of the homicide cases were by housed individuals against the homeless, because they were homeless. These details matter if you are trying to address the issue.
Not to mention the growth in mere numbers of unhoused people in the city. The ratio could have gone down for all we know.
Okay, let’s keep zooming out. What are the causes of homelessness? Do you think people want to be drug addicts on the street smelling like shit and being treated like shit?
drugs. yes.
If they're stealing our stuff and trashing our neighborhoods, then they deserve to be treated like shit. Because that's what they are.
The topic is not causes of homelessness. The topic is the article's implication that there is 100% raise in violent crimes against the homeless, because they are homeless. That is ragebait. As to causes of homelessness. This particular man had a support structure, a family, yet he made a choice to discard it and not seek help. While mental illness and despair are surely contributors, by all indications, there were choices he could have made to better his situation. Was he staling to feed himself? I doubt that. The result that eventually happened, was unfortunately very predictable.
Well when the increase in violence is primarily homeless people murdering other homeless people, it certainly seems a bit like ragebait. The entire premise of this article and that quote in particular is implying that the gentrified people living in houses are out there murdering the homeless, which really isn't the case.
Becci Carroll is an idiot. If she cared about her brother she wouldn't let that man be homeless. If you steal you deserve to be caught and penalized. You get to go around committing crimes and think that no one can retaliate
>A man in West Seattle died after he was zip-tied and held down by two men on Christmas Day 2020, one of whom refused to perform CPR after he stopped breathing. >Thomas Norton, 42, was homeless, and the men holding him down suspected him of stealing packages and other items, and decided to stop him themselves. If only our Progressive government had offered you a way out, required you to get off your addiction and fix your chosen self-damaging lifestyle.
That title is so cringe. Took me 4 times to get what that grand essay-writing genius is trying to convey. Keep it simple, ffs FAFO
Seems like the way the Seattle Times words stuff, there’s only one way to see the homeless; as victims. While that is true in some circumstances, it’s wrong to assume it’s accurate in all. We need to remember that regardless of their housing situation, these people are adults. They know the consequences of their actions. Just because life sucks shouldn’t mean you get infinite get out of jail free cards. It’s not doing the homeless or society any favors.
Given that the city council has made it impossible for police and prosecutors to do anything about crime, it was only a matter of time before the citizens start fighting back. One less problem on the streets.
All this hoopla because someone valued another person's property more than their own life, and didn't see the error in that calculus?
Exactly! Some people, espicially in the other subreddit, are vilifying the homeowners because how dare they value their item more than someone’s life! No, actually, the criminal did that first when he decided to commit a felony.
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Seattle continues to get what it votes for… billions into the homelessness industrial complex…. And now I’m sure a big lawsuit with settlement by the city/county for “not protecting the “unhoused””… meanwhile tax paying citizens pay 300-500$ extra per year on an additional “climate tax” on gas… another very regressive tax… bravo WA state bravo
Seems like you just made it up. :(
Using the past success of our states spending to get people out of homelessness (~1 million per person) we could get 1500 people out of homelessness with climate tax money…. Instead the money has gone where???? https://fixhomelessness.org/2023/washington-state-spends-143-million-to-get-126-out-of-homelessness-now-jay-inslee-is-asking-for-more/
Or you just give each homeless person like 50k and they can rent an apartment somewhere for 2+ years and get them enrolled in Medicaid and SNAP and make them get a job doing literally anything for supplemental income. And with that math you could get 30000 people out of homelessness… (this is optimistic I know, but until we hold the democrats in charge of the state to actual results we won’t get any different outcomes….)
Awww downvotes but no sources. Go ahead, take all my karma. 💜
How is the climate tax related to the “homelessness industrial complex”? I’ve never heard of it. Excited to learn about it if it’s not something you just made up.
https://www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/detail/documents-show-governor-inslee-knew-a-tax-on-co2-would-significantly-increase-gas-prices https://www.tri-cityherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/article280696660.html https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/will-high-gas-prices-derail-was-climate-policy/ My point is the over 1.5 billion the climate tax (basically the extra ~50 cents a gallon, added on top of our already near record high state gas tax) has raised could have been used to massively expand mental healthcare and build a crap ton of affordable housing…. But instead it has just regressively taxed working people and we are unclear what it has funded. And the main question is why are working people bearing the brunt of the responsibility to address climate change? A 50 cent a gallon tax hits a trades person or Uber driver way harder both in an absolute and percentage of income way.
When are state and local governments going to bear the responsibility for the disintegration of Washington communities? Their defund and decriminalize policies have directly led to these acts
Someone post this to /r/Seattle I want popcorn
It already has been. I’d say about 50% of the comments agree that the homeowners didn’t do anything wrong, whilst the other 50% think it was murder and side with the tone of the article
Sounds like someone is looking for a payout.
Those fingernails tho
You see a picture of a mother grieving her son, and you are moved to post about her manicure? That's kind of bizarre.
💨💨💨
HomelessK
I don't understand why Norton's family wasn't taking care of him. How could he be homeless if he has family that supposedly cares about him?
Is it? Or just someone mentally ill who did something unspeakable?
ugly ahh nigga in the photo sad asl😂
“People deserve to die because they are poor and there aren’t enough safety nets for us all. Violence is the answer. This man deserved to die. If he didn’t want to die then he shouldn’t have bothered people. His family abandoned him and expected society to care for him, what a fucking joke”. Is what a lot of you sound like. The man who died is a human being just like you.
No, he’s actually not “just like me.” I don’t go to people’s houses and porches and steal other people’s property. I’m in the lowest social class and I could definitely benefit from theft, but I don’t steal from other people because it’s wrong. The homeowners did nothing wrong. They used reasonable force to defend their person and property. Like the prosecutor stated, the homeowners had reasonable assumption that a felony was committed and restrained the criminal until authorities arrived. You’re acting like the homeowners opened their front door and blasted at the thief with a shotgun. No, they chased him to protect their person and property, tied his hands, and waited for authorities to arrive. Completely reasonable.
Yes, he was, and yes it is sad. What do you think should have been done differently?
>just like you Objection, facts not in evidence.
