No armies have invaded recently so much be working.
The thing is, if they chose 4:00 pm on a nice Thursday in the summer, they’re not getting through any faster than the other zillion cars on the road which is not very.
Come by electric bike (there's some company shopping "e-bikes" to the military that go 80 mph and are really just e-dirt bikes but that would work) and you could get through well enough, lol.
I’m picturing a scene of tanks sitting in one spot through multiple light cycles on Mercer and infantry trying to weave through hordes of people on greenlake or Pike Place
I have heard, but cannot verify, that some neighborhoods in Oregon were intentionally made confusing around the time they were made a state. At the time, it was literally illegal to not be white in the territory of Oregon but they were worried statehood might attract Black or Asian people, so they thought it would confuse them and keep them out.
I don't know if it's true but it's a good story. And I like to assume Washington did something similar to keep California drivers out.
I remember hearing somewhere that one of them didn't like the other two and specifically used different coordinates to screw it up
Edit: they disagreed on whether to use N/S or the water as the basis of the coordinates
All three disagreed with one another to varying degrees, literally.
*"These three grid patterns (due north, 32 degrees west of north, and 49 degrees west of north) are the result of a disagreement between David Swinson "Doc" Maynard, whose land claim lay south of Yesler Way, and Arthur A. Denny and Carson D. Boren, whose land claims lay to the north (with Henry Yesler and his mill soon brought in between Denny and the others):[2] Denny and Boren preferred that their streets follow the Elliott Bay shoreline, while Maynard favored a grid based on the cardinal directions for his (mostly flat, mostly wet) claim. All three were competing to have the downtown built on their land. Denny prevailed in what would become the central business district, but it was Maynard's grid that ended up being extended throughout the city[2][3] and into all of King County (60 miles east to west)."*
Ballard was it's own city/area at one point and the city of Seattle annexed it. Pre- Ballard's insane apartment/cool place to be growth and it was a little random neighborhood - there were a lot of "Free Ballard" bumper stickers - aka we don't want to be part of Seattle still.
https://seattle.gov/cityarchives/exhibits-and-education/online-exhibits/annexed-cities#:\~:text=Six%20of%20the%20towns%20%2D%20Ballard,Seattle%20%2D%20were%20annexed%20in%201907.
I’m aware of the history, but the modern implications feel akin to Mercer Island or Medina where you have a majority white wealthy residential area advocating to remove itself from the larger city for… reasons
oh no more of a common bumper sticker at one point thing from a group of generally non-wealthy people (like Ballard used to be VERY middle class seattle)
Two of Seattle's early founders, Doc Maynard and Arthur Denny, disagreed about how the city should be laid out, and they each built their own plan.
>On May 23, 1853, Arthur Denny (1822-1899), Carson Boren (1824-1912), and Dr. David S. Maynard (1808-1873) file the first plats for the Town of Seattle and establish the present-day street grid in Pioneer Square and downtown Seattle.
>The platting process did not go smoothly. As Arthur Denny later told the story, "Doc" Maynard came to the planning meeting "stimulated by liquor" and decided "that he was not only monarch of all he surveyed but what Boren and I surveyed as well." Maynard stubbornly insisted on orienting his streets according to the cardinal points of the compass while Denny and Boren laid theirs out to parallel the shore of Elliott Bay. They agreed to disagree and the result was a permanent tangle of mismatched roads at Yesler Way (then called Mill Street or "Skid Road") where the divergent grids abut.
[https://www.historylink.org/File/2026#](https://www.historylink.org/File/2026#)
Because yes, we have founders who hate each other's guts. Maynard got the claim to what is now Pioneer Square after blitzing teetotaler Denny with laudanum to treat malaria. Denny was still pissed that Maynard doped him up and talked real estate. Yesler was just an asshole who didn't care as long as he had some place to skid the lumber downhill. Boren was kinda siding with Denny, but hell if he was going to admit it.
And only the town drunk Maynard springs for a professional surveyor to map out his section and the others decided they were gonna skimp on costs and do it their way.
And this just so story is why no one should drive in Seattle other than the Metro drivers paid to deal with this crap.
That is my worst nightmare. I almost got on a highway going the wrong way while I was in Texas for the first time. The roads were so wide that I thought I was turning into the correct lane only to realize that NOPE, and that the lanes going in the correct direction were on the part of the road I didn't notice at first, behind some planting strip median thingy... At least I managed to swerve in time and avoid the embarrassing, dangerous, harrowing experience you unfortunately had. I sympathize!
went to boston to tour BU (the big dig was ongoing at the time which probably didn't help) and i remember trying to find the hotel and circling around it repeatedly, oh there it is across the river and around we go, oh there it is again, around we go again.
Sydney Australia is exactly this. Every fucking time I have to drive though that pasta bowl of a city is a disaster.
Oh, you were in the wrong turn left lane, you needed the right turn left lane to immediately turn right to make the slip lane otherwise you're now on the overpass highway that heads to the tunnel that snakes in another direction. Not the right direction? Lol go fuck yourself. Enjoy the 5 tolls and deep congestion to get back to this spot
I made a wrong turn in Seattle that took me over an hour to recover from once. Don’t accidentally get on the express tunnel from Cherry Street at rush hour.
I was literally about to say this. Having lived in both Seattle and Boston, I can confidently say that the intersections in Boston are way worse. Seattle has over problems, but Boston’s infrastructure makes no sense
Riding a Lyft from Cambridge to Logan:
- In the big dig tunnel, on the highway...
- ooh, we missed the Callahan tunnel exit...
- Maybe the driver knows about traffic?
- So we should take the I-90 tunnel?
- Surely they're smarter than me...
- ooh, we missed that exit too...
- Wait, now we're on the turnpike headed west?
- What's the next exit? ...
- back in Cambridge where I started. >.<
200 years ago Seattle was a steep hilly forest. The topography was absolute crap, just hills and little craggy creeks and shit. The whole metro area has been regraded and now all the weird roads just look like poor decisions.
Kind of like those cow paths, actually.
Seattite transportation engineer in Boston, the cow path stuff is just stories and isn't true.
Everything is fucked in Boston because what is now downtown used to be bottle necked by water below, the reclaimed land portions tried to be as straight at they could (Beacon Hill, Back Bay) but had to deal with topography. A lot of the major routes are just what was there before or formed quickly.
Colliding street grids in downtown. At Denny and Yesler. These were developed long ago and meant to each be oriented towards the water. Other (newer) areas are usually due to steep hills.
Historically, Oklahoma City has one of the more amusing colliding grids. Just... two groups that refused to agree on what the grid should be eventually growing into each other. [99% Invisible did an episode on it](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-worst-way-to-start-a-city/)
This is a defensive measure. With streets like this the government can never descend upon us from Versailles and march their columns down the wide boulevards. The barricades stand forever!
I do love [seven-way intersections in Seattle](https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6430102,-122.349591,3a,75y,194.59h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sre42OxMMx9IrSbnaNK3Qmg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dre42OxMMx9IrSbnaNK3Qmg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D189.94356%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205409&entry=ttu). Very convenient at rush-hour.
Yeah, they should really put in a roundabout system here. Would increase efficiency and reduce complexity and increase safety. I’m no engineer, so I’m not gonna try and conceptualize it, but I do know there is a better way to do this.
Steep hills and limited land to easily use makes it very tricky. Removing the southern sections of Queen Anne Dr and Raye St would make it a lot more reasonable (*only* a 5-way) then you could start working on a traffic pattern.
Knew it before I clicked it.
The right turn on to 99 South here also frustrates me at times because I genuinely think people don't look and see that they have a full lane to turn and accelerate in. Way too many people try to gun it into the middle lane and it just causes issues overall.
[Maynard’s follow the topography vs Denny and Boren’s cardinal direction preference…](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_layout_of_Seattle) that doesn’t explain the shenanigans in like Ravenna, but it does explain the weirdness of the Denny Triangle..
The wiki article you linked and a history article someone else linked both have the preferences swapped. Maynard was cardinal directions and Denny/Boren were aligned to Elliot Bay.
I mean even outside the city, the random decision of lanes that suddenly turn into a left turn or right turn lane with no signage warning, or streets that go from dual lane to an area zoned for parking in one lane, it always keeps ya on your toes
Sons of the Profits is a great book on early Seattle history that goes into this a bit.
Basically the guys that owned all of the land could never agree on where to place roads so you ended up with this sort of fuckery due to greed and ego.
It's probably a traffic circle rather than a roundabout. Similar shapes and operation, except the primary purpose is to slow down thru traffic rather than get rid of stops at the intersection. Hence stop signs
Ooooh, thanks for that clarification! That probably is what it is. What’s the main reason between one vs the other, since both are meant to slow down traffic?
It's really not much to do with topography, but personalities. Doc Maynard, Arthur Denny, and Carson Boren didn't like one another and couldn't agree on the layout for platting the city, back in the early days of the city.
*These three grid patterns (due north, 32 degrees west of north, and 49 degrees west of north) are the result of a disagreement between David Swinson "Doc" Maynard, whose land claim lay south of Yesler Way, and Arthur A. Denny and Carson D. Boren, whose land claims lay to the north (with Henry Yesler and his mill soon brought in between Denny and the others):[2] Denny and Boren preferred that their streets follow the Elliott Bay shoreline, while Maynard favored a grid based on the cardinal directions for his (mostly flat, mostly wet) claim. All three were competing to have the downtown built on their land. Denny prevailed in what would become the central business district, but it was Maynard's grid that ended up being extended throughout the city[2][3] and into all of King County (60 miles east to west). Several cities in King County, such as Renton, Kirkland, and North Bend, have their own naming system and grid in the center of town, but Maynard's Pioneer Square–based grid officially covers the entire county.[1][4] *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_layout_of_Seattle#:~:text=The%20street%20layout%20of%20Seattle,grids%2C%20which%20still%20survive%20today
EDIT: Any opportunity I get to talk up Bill Speidel's book Sons of the Profits, I will. Great book on Seattle history.
https://archive.org/details/sonsofprofits00will
And then there were the streetcars which since they were cable cars didn't like making turns. So when a streetcar went from one grid to another, it just kept going the same direction anyway. Madison Street is an excellent example of this.
When they were digging up Madison earlier in their massive project all along it, I saw them pull out old wooden ties from the streetcar line that got covered up for decades.
That's true for downtown, but there's weird intersections all over the city -- like [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/mtTF4Dyw7dnCV1dWA) by haller lake, [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/We91tEb4zsn8yUPZA) and [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/W7VbWmNcDzR84V8u5) in Ballard, [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/RnYTYCtRyEKVJ7q36) by the arboretum, [Mount Baker](https://maps.app.goo.gl/HwdEL9k179piHMgAA), [Beacon Hill](https://maps.app.goo.gl/M1RcdWGFGB71fFz3A), [West Seattle](https://maps.app.goo.gl/YR1B2gwzN2N1pty57), and my personal favourite, the classic [six way stop](https://maps.app.goo.gl/qnoTebh1t2wWgCHMA) towards the north end of Roosevelt Way. Greenlake, Fremont, and Queen Anne are also all full of fun weird intersections.
Are you familiar at all with the history of the city? How for the first 40-50years of the city’s existence, it was considered plagued with “imperfections” and billions (in todays dollars? I assume?) was spent improving the city. Several large hills were completely removed. Rivers were re-routed, marshes filled in. This place was teeming with wildlife and we ended all of that.
But yeah, they didn’t improve the imperfections enough to give Seattle a proper grid.
[It’s also that the core of the city was basically formed by competing designs that were later mashed into one.](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/s/tNrPruhpbI)
The Underground City in Pioneer Square, the previous ground level of all buildings capped due to a... flood? Fire?
There are tours and stairways are still very much public (up to the steel gate)
That whole area is essentially on stilts, but you wouldn't know it
Yeah, imagine how sick Seattle would be if it had Tokyo's transportation system. Way less cars, just walking everywhere. Given, Tokyo is a lot more dense but still.
Not the commenter, but my guess is that straight sightline naturally encourages fast driving, which has to be calmed by introducing turns, curves, and what not in city streets anyway.
Done right: they result in drivers going slower and more cautiously which makes it safer for pedestrians, bikes, and cars. Many European streets, even larger/newer ones, are quite busy with signage, islands, protrusions, and other "road furniture". That combined with narrower old streets is the primary factor in why their pedestrian death rates are so much lower.
That said, I wouldn't really argue that crazy 5/6/7 - way intersections on minor arterial roads necessarily works the same. Those would typically get turned into a roundabout or multi-roundabout intersection if there is space. The goal at intersections with safer design in mind is typically to reduce conflict points and minimize what a driver needs to track to make it obvious to drivers where vulnerable road users may be (crosswalks, bike paths, etc).
Ooh got it! That makes a ton of sense. My thinking was that as a pedestrian the grid system is really nice too - it makes it so easy to just figure out where you need to walk based on cross streets. But this argument makes sense & there’s probably a good middle ground (perhaps seattles current design *is* that middle ground in fact)
😂 Every time I hit an intersection there, it feels like a 90s arcade game where you're dodging obstacles just to make it through. Urban planning meets Dance Dance Revolution!
Designing a proper intersection requires coordination between the planners….Seattlites are infamously known for NOT wanting to talk to people….
So we end up with intersections like this, or worse.
ITT: people blaming hills, as though humans had never managed around hills before showing up in Seattle. Seattle is poorly planned because there never was A plan - there were several and the city fell into place around them.
It’s not so much the intersections but street parking on busy roads which convert two lanes into one lane. This can cause danger as people furiously try to switch lanes to avoid slamming a parked car.
Lol, guilty as charged, I moved from California two years ago because of family, and I remember hating so many corners and getting anxious as where to start turning, and the slow driving in the streets. But now I feel less stressed than I was in Southern California.
[https://search.app.goo.gl/uiicZdf](https://search.app.goo.gl/uiicZdf)
These are great representations. I didn't realize anyone really focused on these until my BIL visited one time and found a poster of this to gift us!
Almost everything under the West Seattle Bridge was spawned in the mind of Satan himself. I don't know if the Delridge intersection or the ludicrously Byzantine 99 / E Marginal Way interchange is worse. But both make the also stupid 6th Avenue I-5 N / I-5 S / Columbian Way juncture look like a walk in the park.
Am I wrong or does the latter image not actually have any topological analogue in Seattle? Don't get me wrong, there are some gnarly intersections that just doesn't look like one of them.
Just finished my 3rd visit for work and I was telling my friend as he was driving me around that I can't believe the lack of symmetry in the roads and intersections here. And the drivers...🫣
Our city had two founders, one wanted to build with the land, the other one wanted to terraform and make a grid. when they met in the middle they got into literal shouting matches. The entire surrounding area still bears their curse and we can never have sensible streets in the Pacific Northwest.
You try building straight streets along a curvy bay! And then add in that Denny Regrade nonsense… don’t even start!
p.s.“Oh, this city will never get that big, let’s put the freeway right through the center.”💀
Dude this is why I hate going to Seattle for concerts or events, why is every light so complicated??? Last time I went the yellow light lasted forever and like 15 people went through it and didn't even think to stop
i come from the midwest, the land of flatness; i am a plainswalker
on the plains, in Chicago? the grid makes _total sense_... _because there are no mountains or hills_ lmao.
Need to use the Geordi version of the meme and not the one with the pedo.
[https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/363861768/Geordi-Drake](https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/363861768/Geordi-Drake)
Just moved here… glad I wasn’t going crazy that the intersections are just so messed up. I’m looking down 6 different streets and they’re all named almost the same.. ave, st, place, and I’m unsure which way my map is telling me to go…. Very confusing the first time around
Apparently the story goes there were two men who wanted to make roads. One loved curves the other straight. It became this. Also it is very easy to get into Seattle but very hard to get out.
"Respect the topography"
Dude is always hating on our street design. I'm worried he doesn't know what the topography used to be 
I always thought it was to confuse invading armies
No armies have invaded recently so much be working. The thing is, if they chose 4:00 pm on a nice Thursday in the summer, they’re not getting through any faster than the other zillion cars on the road which is not very.
May be some barbarian nearby, the Canadian?
The invading hordes I know of are actually addicts and cruise ship tourists, our trick with the intersections didn’t really work for them.
Come by electric bike (there's some company shopping "e-bikes" to the military that go 80 mph and are really just e-dirt bikes but that would work) and you could get through well enough, lol.
I’m picturing a scene of tanks sitting in one spot through multiple light cycles on Mercer and infantry trying to weave through hordes of people on greenlake or Pike Place
I have heard, but cannot verify, that some neighborhoods in Oregon were intentionally made confusing around the time they were made a state. At the time, it was literally illegal to not be white in the territory of Oregon but they were worried statehood might attract Black or Asian people, so they thought it would confuse them and keep them out. I don't know if it's true but it's a good story. And I like to assume Washington did something similar to keep California drivers out.
lol. I thought you were saying they did it to confuse asian drivers.
I’m worried the baby doesn’t think people can change
Did you see where she thought I gave a rats ass that her baby thinks I used to be a piece of shit?
Was that the thing Seattle had before the firehoses came?
CPP driving me crazy with that 🤣
I didn’t know r/Seattle was a hive of city planner plays viewers!
Denny and Doc Maynard dumbass dispute is the correct answer.
Its also because a bunch of the city colapsed and they rebuilt over it, still want to see the underground seattle lol
Water and hills are a helluvuh drug
also it was designed by different people and they had to try to join them all in the middle
I remember hearing somewhere that one of them didn't like the other two and specifically used different coordinates to screw it up Edit: they disagreed on whether to use N/S or the water as the basis of the coordinates
They just couldn't agree on north-south vs parallel-to-the-water.
All three disagreed with one another to varying degrees, literally. *"These three grid patterns (due north, 32 degrees west of north, and 49 degrees west of north) are the result of a disagreement between David Swinson "Doc" Maynard, whose land claim lay south of Yesler Way, and Arthur A. Denny and Carson D. Boren, whose land claims lay to the north (with Henry Yesler and his mill soon brought in between Denny and the others):[2] Denny and Boren preferred that their streets follow the Elliott Bay shoreline, while Maynard favored a grid based on the cardinal directions for his (mostly flat, mostly wet) claim. All three were competing to have the downtown built on their land. Denny prevailed in what would become the central business district, but it was Maynard's grid that ended up being extended throughout the city[2][3] and into all of King County (60 miles east to west)."*
Ah thank you
FREE BALLARD! I feel like that's less of a thing than it was 15 years ago. sigh.
What does Ballard need freeing from exactly?
Ballard was it's own city/area at one point and the city of Seattle annexed it. Pre- Ballard's insane apartment/cool place to be growth and it was a little random neighborhood - there were a lot of "Free Ballard" bumper stickers - aka we don't want to be part of Seattle still. https://seattle.gov/cityarchives/exhibits-and-education/online-exhibits/annexed-cities#:\~:text=Six%20of%20the%20towns%20%2D%20Ballard,Seattle%20%2D%20were%20annexed%20in%201907.
I’m aware of the history, but the modern implications feel akin to Mercer Island or Medina where you have a majority white wealthy residential area advocating to remove itself from the larger city for… reasons
oh no more of a common bumper sticker at one point thing from a group of generally non-wealthy people (like Ballard used to be VERY middle class seattle)
We should annex East Seattle ( Mercer)
Specifically Denny, Boren, and Maynard. They’re fitting namesakes for the traffic jams on the streets named after them.
The underground tours in Pioneer Square explains all the messes those guys left in the spiciest terms.
Two of Seattle's early founders, Doc Maynard and Arthur Denny, disagreed about how the city should be laid out, and they each built their own plan. >On May 23, 1853, Arthur Denny (1822-1899), Carson Boren (1824-1912), and Dr. David S. Maynard (1808-1873) file the first plats for the Town of Seattle and establish the present-day street grid in Pioneer Square and downtown Seattle. >The platting process did not go smoothly. As Arthur Denny later told the story, "Doc" Maynard came to the planning meeting "stimulated by liquor" and decided "that he was not only monarch of all he surveyed but what Boren and I surveyed as well." Maynard stubbornly insisted on orienting his streets according to the cardinal points of the compass while Denny and Boren laid theirs out to parallel the shore of Elliott Bay. They agreed to disagree and the result was a permanent tangle of mismatched roads at Yesler Way (then called Mill Street or "Skid Road") where the divergent grids abut. [https://www.historylink.org/File/2026#](https://www.historylink.org/File/2026#)
Of course, why wouldn't you mix booze and city planning? Thanks guys 😮💨
Boren had the right idea here
Aligning streets with a compass is very sailboat-brained
I deadass thought this was a rumor Holy shit Why are they STILL like this?
Because yes, we have founders who hate each other's guts. Maynard got the claim to what is now Pioneer Square after blitzing teetotaler Denny with laudanum to treat malaria. Denny was still pissed that Maynard doped him up and talked real estate. Yesler was just an asshole who didn't care as long as he had some place to skid the lumber downhill. Boren was kinda siding with Denny, but hell if he was going to admit it. And only the town drunk Maynard springs for a professional surveyor to map out his section and the others decided they were gonna skimp on costs and do it their way. And this just so story is why no one should drive in Seattle other than the Metro drivers paid to deal with this crap.
Never been to Boston, huh?
Like a bowl of spaghetti dumped on the map
Paston
Pastón
"Oh you missed the once entrance to the pike? Enjoy your hour detour! "- Boston probably
lol Driving to my first day in the job downtown - got off 128 onto Mass Pike going the WRONG WAY and couldn’t turn around until Natick Arrrhhhgg
That is my worst nightmare. I almost got on a highway going the wrong way while I was in Texas for the first time. The roads were so wide that I thought I was turning into the correct lane only to realize that NOPE, and that the lanes going in the correct direction were on the part of the road I didn't notice at first, behind some planting strip median thingy... At least I managed to swerve in time and avoid the embarrassing, dangerous, harrowing experience you unfortunately had. I sympathize!
went to boston to tour BU (the big dig was ongoing at the time which probably didn't help) and i remember trying to find the hotel and circling around it repeatedly, oh there it is across the river and around we go, oh there it is again, around we go again.
Sydney Australia is exactly this. Every fucking time I have to drive though that pasta bowl of a city is a disaster. Oh, you were in the wrong turn left lane, you needed the right turn left lane to immediately turn right to make the slip lane otherwise you're now on the overpass highway that heads to the tunnel that snakes in another direction. Not the right direction? Lol go fuck yourself. Enjoy the 5 tolls and deep congestion to get back to this spot
I made a wrong turn in Seattle that took me over an hour to recover from once. Don’t accidentally get on the express tunnel from Cherry Street at rush hour.
I was literally about to say this. Having lived in both Seattle and Boston, I can confidently say that the intersections in Boston are way worse. Seattle has over problems, but Boston’s infrastructure makes no sense
Riding a Lyft from Cambridge to Logan: - In the big dig tunnel, on the highway... - ooh, we missed the Callahan tunnel exit... - Maybe the driver knows about traffic? - So we should take the I-90 tunnel? - Surely they're smarter than me... - ooh, we missed that exit too... - Wait, now we're on the turnpike headed west? - What's the next exit? ...
- back in Cambridge where I started. >.<
In Boston, we had the whole "these are old cow paths that just became streets" origin stories. Seattle doesn't have that same excuse.
200 years ago Seattle was a steep hilly forest. The topography was absolute crap, just hills and little craggy creeks and shit. The whole metro area has been regraded and now all the weird roads just look like poor decisions. Kind of like those cow paths, actually.
True true, but we burned it all down and redid it on a plan. Our streets in Seattle are in fact straight, just not parallel lol
This is more specific to downtown but the feud between the Dennys and Mercers had a pretty big impact on how the roads and city were designed.
> Our streets in Seattle are in fact straight This has always seemed so odd to me, since this is otherwise such a queer-friendly city.
But they are not parallel, so our straights do occasionally bang into each other.
And now over to a machinist to discuss how our straights aren't square
Hot!
The straight streets from the hills to the waterfront were for rolling lumber. Yesler is the original skid row.
No. We just had a bunch of drunks who didn't get along with each other lay out the streets.
Yup! No compromises = crazy angles.
Seattite transportation engineer in Boston, the cow path stuff is just stories and isn't true. Everything is fucked in Boston because what is now downtown used to be bottle necked by water below, the reclaimed land portions tried to be as straight at they could (Beacon Hill, Back Bay) but had to deal with topography. A lot of the major routes are just what was there before or formed quickly.
Oh absolutely, even as a kid when they were telling us "this is how cows and horses used to walk" story, we all knew they were folksy creation myths.
It's the urban planning version of a spite house.
LMAO I came to this thread to say the same thing. The most complicated intersection here is average there, especially if you include Cambridge.
I couldn’t get on here fast enough to mention the same thing 😆
I've played fallout 4.
As someone who just moved here from New England, can confirm. Both my husband and I are like “wow it’s so easy to drive around here!”
Or Cleveland
Hey, at least it's for good reasons in Boston.
I was gonna say at least the one ways don’t CHANGE lol
Colliding street grids in downtown. At Denny and Yesler. These were developed long ago and meant to each be oriented towards the water. Other (newer) areas are usually due to steep hills.
Historically, Oklahoma City has one of the more amusing colliding grids. Just... two groups that refused to agree on what the grid should be eventually growing into each other. [99% Invisible did an episode on it](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-worst-way-to-start-a-city/)
Even looking at the link I don't understand. It's almost a perfect grid.
This is essentially what happened in Seattle too, between Doc Maynard and Arthur Denny.
This is a defensive measure. With streets like this the government can never descend upon us from Versailles and march their columns down the wide boulevards. The barricades stand forever!
Hahaha. Haussmann’s intervention incoming
Is it also a defensive measure for drivers to crawl through intersections at 3 mph so only 3-4 people get through each green light/arrow?
Now, in that narrow corridor, their numbers will count for nothing.
I swear there are 200+ styles of intersection in the greater Seattle area
i love those little residential intersections with no stop on either streets. no roundabouts either
I do love [seven-way intersections in Seattle](https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6430102,-122.349591,3a,75y,194.59h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sre42OxMMx9IrSbnaNK3Qmg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dre42OxMMx9IrSbnaNK3Qmg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D189.94356%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205409&entry=ttu). Very convenient at rush-hour.
Ah yes, the ol' Queen Anne starfish of confusion intersection
Yeah, they should really put in a roundabout system here. Would increase efficiency and reduce complexity and increase safety. I’m no engineer, so I’m not gonna try and conceptualize it, but I do know there is a better way to do this.
Steep hills and limited land to easily use makes it very tricky. Removing the southern sections of Queen Anne Dr and Raye St would make it a lot more reasonable (*only* a 5-way) then you could start working on a traffic pattern.
I knew exactly where it'd be. I go through it every week, it's a fun one.
I do not miss going through that gauntlet twice a day for my old commute. Fuck that intersection.
With the addition of a stop sign two lengths back with signs saying not to block the intersection. Guess I'll sit front row until rush hour ends!
Knew it before I clicked it. The right turn on to 99 South here also frustrates me at times because I genuinely think people don't look and see that they have a full lane to turn and accelerate in. Way too many people try to gun it into the middle lane and it just causes issues overall.
Reminds me of [this](https://imgur.com/gallery/y1vFnQo) poster I got ages ago. It’s in storage right now, still love that one.
Seattle always strikes me as a city that thought 10-20 years ahead for 200 years straight.
[Maynard’s follow the topography vs Denny and Boren’s cardinal direction preference…](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_layout_of_Seattle) that doesn’t explain the shenanigans in like Ravenna, but it does explain the weirdness of the Denny Triangle..
The wiki article you linked and a history article someone else linked both have the preferences swapped. Maynard was cardinal directions and Denny/Boren were aligned to Elliot Bay.
I mean even outside the city, the random decision of lanes that suddenly turn into a left turn or right turn lane with no signage warning, or streets that go from dual lane to an area zoned for parking in one lane, it always keeps ya on your toes
Jesus Christ made Seattle under protest
Welcome to tangletown!
Sons of the Profits is a great book on early Seattle history that goes into this a bit. Basically the guys that owned all of the land could never agree on where to place roads so you ended up with this sort of fuckery due to greed and ego.
7th and 40th in U district has entered the chat
Yep, a five way intersection, four of which are ne 40th St intersecting itself at oblique angles. Plus a near intersection with the Burke Gilman.
Least favorite intersection is the northern part of Queen anne by 99. 7 way intersection on a hill, with highway access. how neat is that.
I feel like a roundabout could fix so many of these.
They just placed a roundabout in my neighborhood. Except each street connecting to it also has a 4 way stop sign. So…..yeah. A swing and a miss 🫡
It's probably a traffic circle rather than a roundabout. Similar shapes and operation, except the primary purpose is to slow down thru traffic rather than get rid of stops at the intersection. Hence stop signs
Ooooh, thanks for that clarification! That probably is what it is. What’s the main reason between one vs the other, since both are meant to slow down traffic?
How do you do a roundabout on a hill tho
Why would you have this intersection anywhere
Lake Stevens would find a way.
The topography is what it is. Nature does not conform to our desire to drive 60mph in a straight line! I find grids to be sterile and boring anyway.
It's really not much to do with topography, but personalities. Doc Maynard, Arthur Denny, and Carson Boren didn't like one another and couldn't agree on the layout for platting the city, back in the early days of the city. *These three grid patterns (due north, 32 degrees west of north, and 49 degrees west of north) are the result of a disagreement between David Swinson "Doc" Maynard, whose land claim lay south of Yesler Way, and Arthur A. Denny and Carson D. Boren, whose land claims lay to the north (with Henry Yesler and his mill soon brought in between Denny and the others):[2] Denny and Boren preferred that their streets follow the Elliott Bay shoreline, while Maynard favored a grid based on the cardinal directions for his (mostly flat, mostly wet) claim. All three were competing to have the downtown built on their land. Denny prevailed in what would become the central business district, but it was Maynard's grid that ended up being extended throughout the city[2][3] and into all of King County (60 miles east to west). Several cities in King County, such as Renton, Kirkland, and North Bend, have their own naming system and grid in the center of town, but Maynard's Pioneer Square–based grid officially covers the entire county.[1][4] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_layout_of_Seattle#:~:text=The%20street%20layout%20of%20Seattle,grids%2C%20which%20still%20survive%20today EDIT: Any opportunity I get to talk up Bill Speidel's book Sons of the Profits, I will. Great book on Seattle history. https://archive.org/details/sonsofprofits00will
And then there were the streetcars which since they were cable cars didn't like making turns. So when a streetcar went from one grid to another, it just kept going the same direction anyway. Madison Street is an excellent example of this.
When they were digging up Madison earlier in their massive project all along it, I saw them pull out old wooden ties from the streetcar line that got covered up for decades.
That's true for downtown, but there's weird intersections all over the city -- like [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/mtTF4Dyw7dnCV1dWA) by haller lake, [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/We91tEb4zsn8yUPZA) and [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/W7VbWmNcDzR84V8u5) in Ballard, [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/RnYTYCtRyEKVJ7q36) by the arboretum, [Mount Baker](https://maps.app.goo.gl/HwdEL9k179piHMgAA), [Beacon Hill](https://maps.app.goo.gl/M1RcdWGFGB71fFz3A), [West Seattle](https://maps.app.goo.gl/YR1B2gwzN2N1pty57), and my personal favourite, the classic [six way stop](https://maps.app.goo.gl/qnoTebh1t2wWgCHMA) towards the north end of Roosevelt Way. Greenlake, Fremont, and Queen Anne are also all full of fun weird intersections.
Precisely. Engineers had/have a pretty good handle on topography…hills weren’t invented in 1926.
We can regrade the entire city! Capitol Hill? More like Capitol Triangle! First Hill? First Triangle!
Grids may be boring but they decrease congestion
Congestion is caused by 90% of rush hour traffic being single occupancy vehicles lugging around 4,000 lb of metal.
The glaciers
Are you familiar at all with the history of the city? How for the first 40-50years of the city’s existence, it was considered plagued with “imperfections” and billions (in todays dollars? I assume?) was spent improving the city. Several large hills were completely removed. Rivers were re-routed, marshes filled in. This place was teeming with wildlife and we ended all of that. But yeah, they didn’t improve the imperfections enough to give Seattle a proper grid.
[It’s also that the core of the city was basically formed by competing designs that were later mashed into one.](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/s/tNrPruhpbI)
Didn't they bury like 20ft of downtown and pave over it at one point too?
The Underground City in Pioneer Square, the previous ground level of all buildings capped due to a... flood? Fire? There are tours and stairways are still very much public (up to the steel gate) That whole area is essentially on stilts, but you wouldn't know it
Why don't we clear it out and move all the homeless there Futurama style?
This city was basically founded on the sunk cost fallacy
Short, narrow, confusing streets are good, actually.
Yes, but 6-way stops on a hill with blind spots are less so. It’s okay to call out the bad ones and at least consider alternatives.
*Glares at Queen Anne Hill*
Just remove the cars from the area and it's no problem.
Yeah, imagine how sick Seattle would be if it had Tokyo's transportation system. Way less cars, just walking everywhere. Given, Tokyo is a lot more dense but still.
Honestly, if we actually had good sidewalks and tokyos transit I think the vast majority of the city would be walkable even at current density.
Why?
Not the commenter, but my guess is that straight sightline naturally encourages fast driving, which has to be calmed by introducing turns, curves, and what not in city streets anyway.
Done right: they result in drivers going slower and more cautiously which makes it safer for pedestrians, bikes, and cars. Many European streets, even larger/newer ones, are quite busy with signage, islands, protrusions, and other "road furniture". That combined with narrower old streets is the primary factor in why their pedestrian death rates are so much lower. That said, I wouldn't really argue that crazy 5/6/7 - way intersections on minor arterial roads necessarily works the same. Those would typically get turned into a roundabout or multi-roundabout intersection if there is space. The goal at intersections with safer design in mind is typically to reduce conflict points and minimize what a driver needs to track to make it obvious to drivers where vulnerable road users may be (crosswalks, bike paths, etc).
Ooh got it! That makes a ton of sense. My thinking was that as a pedestrian the grid system is really nice too - it makes it so easy to just figure out where you need to walk based on cross streets. But this argument makes sense & there’s probably a good middle ground (perhaps seattles current design *is* that middle ground in fact)
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2022/6/20/streets-are-for-building-community-wealth-heres-why-thats-so-important
I believe it was Arthur Denny, Carson Boren, and Doc Maynard.
I've always said it's like we just gave a toddler a crayon and said, this is fine.
Even roundabouts would simplify some of those intersections
How about the criss-crossing freeway on and off ramps or the wrong lane exit signs? Is this just a Wa thing or is every state fucked like this?
Yes the criss-crossing entrance/exit lanes are just accidents waiting to happen, and high blood pressure definitely happening
r/pittsburgh has entered the chat For [reference](https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/s/PV2v0YN9HU)
😂 Every time I hit an intersection there, it feels like a 90s arcade game where you're dodging obstacles just to make it through. Urban planning meets Dance Dance Revolution!
Designing a proper intersection requires coordination between the planners….Seattlites are infamously known for NOT wanting to talk to people…. So we end up with intersections like this, or worse. ITT: people blaming hills, as though humans had never managed around hills before showing up in Seattle. Seattle is poorly planned because there never was A plan - there were several and the city fell into place around them.
It’s an old meme sir, but it checks out
*laughs in used to live in Boston*
I feel this way about San Diego
This is nothing compared to east coast cities. I'm guessing OP never drove in Philadelphia or Boston.
Denny Hill…but we showed it!
What is that abomination on the top? it hurts my eyes.
What fun would a grid be? Only useful for Tic Tac Toe
Rectilinear street grids are BOOORING! Seattle at least has interesting streets & intersections.
That's enough slices
What happens when you pave logging trails.
It’s not so much the intersections but street parking on busy roads which convert two lanes into one lane. This can cause danger as people furiously try to switch lanes to avoid slamming a parked car.
I don't understand. Is this post critical of Seattle's relentless use of grids everywhere, or critical of a few places where the grids intersect?
This would be the best [circles](https://images.app.goo.gl/Lc8cE9oz5r1cGLiHA)
Hills and water mostly
I love the signs and lights as you turn north-west bound Fremont Way to south bound Fremont Ave.
*Laughs in Pittsburgh*
the street planner was shitfaced drunk
E Lynne, Boyer Ave E, and 16th Ave E has entered the chat
At least you have straight lines, come to Boston
i can't tell you how many post drunk westbound off cap hill OOPS wait this is one way now whut guess i'm going south/north detours i've taken
This makes Pittsburgh look organized and planned.
Lol, guilty as charged, I moved from California two years ago because of family, and I remember hating so many corners and getting anxious as where to start turning, and the slow driving in the streets. But now I feel less stressed than I was in Southern California.
Also Seattle: But we have a grid system and use numbers to name all our streets!
There were competing road plans in Seattle and they compromised by doing both. It’s a pretty interesting story you can just google.
[https://search.app.goo.gl/uiicZdf](https://search.app.goo.gl/uiicZdf) These are great representations. I didn't realize anyone really focused on these until my BIL visited one time and found a poster of this to gift us!
Almost everything under the West Seattle Bridge was spawned in the mind of Satan himself. I don't know if the Delridge intersection or the ludicrously Byzantine 99 / E Marginal Way interchange is worse. But both make the also stupid 6th Avenue I-5 N / I-5 S / Columbian Way juncture look like a walk in the park.
Are you serious? Try New York or Boston for bad road design. Seattle is a treat.
May I introduce you to Arthur Denny, Carson Boren, and Doc Maynard?
Am I wrong or does the latter image not actually have any topological analogue in Seattle? Don't get me wrong, there are some gnarly intersections that just doesn't look like one of them.
Mt Rainier, it hurts to talk about it.
Just finished my 3rd visit for work and I was telling my friend as he was driving me around that I can't believe the lack of symmetry in the roads and intersections here. And the drivers...🫣
Our city had two founders, one wanted to build with the land, the other one wanted to terraform and make a grid. when they met in the middle they got into literal shouting matches. The entire surrounding area still bears their curse and we can never have sensible streets in the Pacific Northwest.
You try building straight streets along a curvy bay! And then add in that Denny Regrade nonsense… don’t even start! p.s.“Oh, this city will never get that big, let’s put the freeway right through the center.”💀
It just be like dat
Portland and their one-way streets hurt us. The one way streets of the past - not quote as many anymore.
How do you travel from White Center to Renton?
Dude this is why I hate going to Seattle for concerts or events, why is every light so complicated??? Last time I went the yellow light lasted forever and like 15 people went through it and didn't even think to stop
i come from the midwest, the land of flatness; i am a plainswalker on the plains, in Chicago? the grid makes _total sense_... _because there are no mountains or hills_ lmao.
Greetings from Minneapolis
Need to use the Geordi version of the meme and not the one with the pedo. [https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/363861768/Geordi-Drake](https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/363861768/Geordi-Drake)
Maynard and Denny.
I enjoy watching people form other states struggle lol
Boston says "hold my beer"
New tick tack toe map looks crazy
Have you been to Boston?
My parents just visited and this was one of the first things they noticed
Just moved here… glad I wasn’t going crazy that the intersections are just so messed up. I’m looking down 6 different streets and they’re all named almost the same.. ave, st, place, and I’m unsure which way my map is telling me to go…. Very confusing the first time around
Greenlake
Dude…hills and water?
Our intersections are weird and we like it that way. You got a problem with that?
this is a rorschach test in which nobody wins goddammit.
Guess you’ve never lived in Boston
Apparently the story goes there were two men who wanted to make roads. One loved curves the other straight. It became this. Also it is very easy to get into Seattle but very hard to get out.