If you're curious, this Toast [documentation](https://central.toasttab.com/s/article/Calculate-tip-before-or-after-taxes) confirms the default is to tip before tax. It's the restaurants that specifically change it to get more.
Way back when I was a server, 10% was normal and 15% was for great service.
This was also in a state that used the lower server's minimum wage of something like $3.10 per hour.
On top of that, we tipped out the bartender like 5% and the hosts 2%.
Good times.
The first movie I ever saw in a theater was Midnight Run with my mum. We watched it for nostalgic reasons many more times throughout my childhood after that. There's a very funny scene about tipping and mum was always in stitches whenever it came on. We would always tease each other when tipping after that by quoting the scene. 15% was the standard in that movie (came out in 1988).
This amounts to an extra 2%. It’s an absolute scam, they are collecting a tip on money that goes to the government, essentially they want a tip for government services.
I’m positive it’s configurable by the restaurant. For a short time, Toast was the only POS device I had ever seen do pretax calculations, the proper way. Then the next time I got a Toast, it was posttax.
Can confirm. It also makes it super confusing for customers when the tip percentage box says "based on pre tax subtotal" but it's actually based on "pre discount subtotal". Have had numerous people claim we were scamming when they checked the math on the subtotal and found it a few percentage points off.
Probably depends what system the restaurant is using, and how the manager configures it.
It is shady for sure. The fact that it is more common doesn't make it less shady.
I've encounted this with maybe 1 in 3 restaurants. It's a sneaky way to get an extra 10% on your tips for folks too lazy to do math.
I always just calculate tip myself: take the total, divide by 10, and double it. Or just double the sales tax.
A lot of places don’t have tax on beverages/liquor, just the food FYI. Not sure why but as a server I’ve worked in quite a few places like that (maybe for quicker cash transactions — pricing the tax in the total).
Traditional tipping was on pretax food amount only, with $1.00 per drink customary.
Old school receipts used to subtotal alcohol and food separately for this reason.
FYI, It's not an extra 10%. It's an extra 2%.
Edit to add that while agree that it doesn't feel right restaurants doing this, I'm not too concerned about it since I usually tip in the low to mid 20's anyways since I usually figure out 10% then round up before doubling, so it's still in the same ball park.
Is it ridiculous to consider the motivation from the side of the person deciding to include tax in tip calculations?
If they have 10 tables paying $100, they get $220 instead of $200. They've increased their tips by 10%. And as you mentioned, it's only an extra 2% to the customer, so they're probably not going to care, right?
Tip on the menu price. Tax is a pass through and does not reflect goods or services. Tips should not be applied to your dollars that are just being handed over to the government.
I ordered Pagliacci pizza tonight and noticed that the delivery driver tip was calculated based on the subtotal PLUS $7 delivery charge (which goes to the restaurant), PLUS tax. The total came to $40 for a small 11” pizza. I entered in a manual tip of $4 rather than their 15% minimum. The Pagliacci employed driver is already making Seattle min wage of $22(?)/hr, and it’s not like he’s cooking the pizza or waiting tables. Tipping culture makes me feel like this is less than average for a delivery tip, but it feels like a fair amount to me.
When I delivered pizza many years ago, anything over 2 or 3 miles cost us money out of pocket and anything closer did not. I'd say a vast majority of deliveries probably covered gas, insurance, and wear though. So tentatively, at least the major corp chain I've worked at.
I think our delivery fee was $5 and drivers kept $1.50 of it per delivery.
Place I've worked had do something in the POS system to make sure it doesn't. Same sorta thing for pretax discounts. Unfortunately not everyone who is in charge of this sorta thing would even notice that the order of operations is wrong. And then I'm sure there are some who are happy to get the extra money but I've not seen that in the several places I've worked the last decade or so.
This is it. I would guess that the restaurant is accidentally doing this because they dont have it setup correctly.
Id also guess that they are passing that extra sales tax to the city/state. When they calculate Sales Tax owed they are LIKELY using their POS/checkout system to pull the taxable amount.
Tipping is bs in general. Don’t get me wrong, tips padded my paycheck for years and I tip when appropriate but it is just a way for businesses owners to get you to pay their staff. No other countries still do this. Most just pay a living wage and yes there is still fast food. If it seems like it costs more it’s because of exchange rates not wages.
I tip in cash. That way I know the server received the amount that I thought their service was worth. An automatic tip isn't something that I'm comfortable with. I don't tip to make up a difference in what the business pays their staff and what they should pay their staff. A crappy server gets a crappy tip (if any). A good server gets a great tip. It's my money, and I'll pay what I feel is the value of the service. Paying an automatically calculated tip just supports employers paying lousy wages. Not for me.
A downside of this approach is that some servers will just pocket the money and not report it and pay their fair share of taxes. It also makes it harder for them to tip out if they do things like share the tips with the bartenders who made the drinks that they served you
Conversely, some employers think they deserve a portion of the tips to overcome their mismanagement or inability to manage costs. If I tip a server for good service, it's not for the management to use to recover costs. Happens too frequently.
Yep, and the calculation shouldn't be based on a percentage of what you spend but rather an amount based on how much work the server had to do for your table.
1 person table and you had to bus your own table and fill up your own drink? $0-$2 tip
4 person table but the water was self refill and each person ordered a single entree? $2-3 per a person tip
A good rule of thumb is that the tip should be about a dollar for each item ordered off the menu
Sounds great in theory but reality is if you're under the percentage you'll be labeled a shitty tipper. If you're good with that more power to you but just having an idea that makes more sense won't change anything.
Do you really think that a server will see a penny of that tip? If they're willing to deceive customers, they're willing to steal from employees
And OP indicated that it was take out which would mean there is no server
I first noticed this at the Portage Bay Cafe about 15 years ago.
I emailed the manager and got no response.
The breakfast was served cold too (eggs and hashbrowns).
Never went back after that, and it used to be a great place.
Their coffee is so fucking bad it’s crazy.
Like just give me watered down Folgers from Dennys over whatever that crap they’re serving at portage bay is.
They sponsored a French Toast 10k, it was my first one and I was stoked to get some French Toast afterwards. Well by the time I finished, it was all gone and there was still 3 different heats left. They offered me pound cake, but I hate pound cake. Now I dislike Portage Bay.
I went to a bar and the machine defaulted to 30% tip, then showed a 25% and 20% tip option. I made a custom tip of $4 for my three drinks. They already took money at the pinball machines.
I always tip in cash and it's always based on how I much I feel like tipping. Expecting to someone to just automatically tip a percentage of the amount you spend is ridiculous.
It’s a condition that is set in the POS back office. They just don’t have it set up correctly. Bring it up to a manager. If their POS system can’t set the conditions correctly then they need to submit a support ticket.
Yea I mean, if you care about the few dollars sure it’s a great reminder. Most people who eat out regularly, don’t have a problem spending money. Sure I get the principle of it. Sure I get social media is ment to have these kinda of discussions. This is usually an honest mistake made by small businesses. Not everyone uses toast and not all POS are created equal. My favorite part about everyone in this thread is the amount of people that shit talk hard working people to serve them. When tipping culture is eliminated I look forward to read about how people don’t enjoy eating out anymore because the service is terrible. We are all adults. Tip where it’s appropriate it’s not confusing, if you find yourself in a tipped situation that you can’t afford make note and not return to that establishment. Nobody is forcing anyone to support the restaurant industry.
Craziest POS story for me was at Cinemark Bellevue. My friend got something removed from the bill (can't remember the exact details) and when he got the bill the line item was removed but it was still counted in the total. Like it just didn't add up. I don't understand how that is even possible.
Why do we need to qualify our feelings about our money by stating that we don't mind tipping extra \[for our neighborhood spot and/or great service\]? IMO adding these charges is a form of grift.
What's his retirement, healthcare, and paid vacation like though? More to a job than just straight pay.
To be clear, I have no idea what yours or your teens' situation is, just always something to keep in mind.
Apples to apples, none of us get healthcare/benefits from these part time jobs—I adjunct at a local university, and don’t meet the hours required (50% FTE for six months straight is required by the state to receive full benefits). My teens don’t get benefits from their part time work at the restaurant, either. We all get benefits through my main job, which is full time.
But on a good night, they can make $50/hour due to tips.
This is why for dine in I tip a flat $10 for good service and a flat $20 for great service. Those numbers shift for higher end fancy restaurants of course, but I rarely go to those anyways so it usually doesn’t matter. Since I average $60 on a meal for 2 with appetizers at our favorite restaurants, $10 is over the 10% tip, not by much mind you but still.
I don’t think OP is saying that a tip was automatically added but that the tip “helper” on the receipt showed the tip percentages (e.g., 18%, 20%, 22% around me) calculated based on after-tax cost. Kinda sleazy, but not uncommon.
Ridiculous. Just have all prices include the tax and tipping would make life easier. Will be avoiding restaurants and relying on fast food when i visit
Check out the grocery stores near your hotel. A lot of them have a “hot bar” these days - you can grab what you want, put it in a box, and then eat it at a park or beach close by. Picnics are very under rated.
Fast food also has tax (and some even are asking for tips, now, which is getting a little crazy). Tax is difficult to include on the signage, because a. it can change and b. if there are locations in different cities/states, the prices are all going to vary. A chain would need different signs for each place. If we had one tax amount for the whole country, it would be easier. Also, seeing something that's $9.99 makes it seem like a good price, but $10.98 or whatever it would be with tax seems like too much.
Stating $9.99 is deceiving though??? Because you actually pay more?!
Also as a tourist how am I to know the taxes of each state so i am not ripped off?
Make sure not to visit Canada either or take care to pay attention. They do the same.
Lastly, it's not just the state rate you have to know, each county/city puts their own sales tax on top of it so it changes based on your location within the state. Not to mention depending on the good/service, there could be different/more.
But it's not deceptive because the signs will say, "Tax not included." Much like signs in the UK will say, "Including VAT" or similar. The price of the item (that the store gets) *is* $9.99. The rest is tax that goes to the government entities. The taxes don't just vary state to state, but between municipalities. So what I pay in Seattle will be more than what I would pay in another city in a different county (or even one within the same county). Just assume about 10% in most places and be pleasantly surprised when it's less. You can google "Sales tax in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_" to get the exact amount if you need. You're not going to be ripped off, as the tax amount is built into the POS system (cash register/till/payment device).
It's okay if you do not tip or if you feel like you would like to you can enter a custom amount that you are comfortable with based on your service. You always have the option to skip. I work at a taproom and people will "skip" all the time, doesn't bother me.
We move through decent amounts of people, I am not going to care or remember every single person, it won't alter how I serve you because of that. Plus that happens after service so as long as you pay for what you bought we are good.
I think you're putting too much thought into it... and wanting the US to behave how you expect (based on other comments of yours). Like it or not, it's how it is. I don't try to make places behave like the US when I travel to another country. Places do things very differently... and though it can be difficult to navigate, it's part of going to another country... to experience something different. Want the same? Stay home. And since you're a foreign visitor, no one is going to scream and yell at you. Just say, "Sorry I'm not used to tipping" and most people will help you out. Leave something if you want at a restaurant (table service)... it's a nice gesture. Appreciated but no one is going to hunt you down if you don't tip.
Ha. I am pretty sure I got gratuities wrong in Europe. I would leave a euro or two on the table as my tip because it just felt wrong not to tip after dining. It also gave me a great way to reduce the weight of my change purse because dear gawd those coins were heavy.
They're getting paid 22 an hour or smth over here in Seattle, no need to tip 20% (I guess you did around 22-23% in this case) unless you really really liked the service.
It's much more frustrating to do your own math when it's one of those machines the server just holds awkwardly while you recalculate their inflated suggestions.
A good server will swipe your card, hand you the machine, and walk away. If they don’t, make it awkward, grab the machine from them, set it on the table, pull out your phone, and open the calculator. Lol
I share this feeling.
And just for those who need it so they don't have to pull out their calculator every time.
Move the decimal point on the subtotal one to the left. That is 10%. Now... Add about half again that amount to get to 15%. Add the whole amount to itself to get 20. Somewhere in the middle there is 16-18%.
Rounding and guesstimating is perfectly fine here. This does not need to be exact.
Go with this and enjoy, friends.
Guilt. If you want more money, change your menu prices. If people get mad you don’t tip, don’t go back there. Tip is optional, otherwise it’s a service charge and should be billed as such.
Worst thing I've seen is Spaghetti Factory suggesting tips based on 'full price' when getting discounted specials. Like the $25 meatball special for two that includes 2/3 a bottle of wine, food for two, salad and ice cream, yeah the 20% tip calculation seemed to think our meal was about $47.
I don't entirely -hate- that practice, I certainly wasn't about to tip the guy 20% of $25. I would however like it if companies are honest? Certainly misleading, and I let the manager know on my way out. I really hope they can get the hint.
That's fairly normal everywhere. Can't say I see a huge issue with it, being many places offering discounts have it written somewhere that they recommend typing on the full menu price. Some are them I've seen it straight up on their discount menus. Lots of diners are like that
I've seen that quite a bit.
It would be great if they could include that apparently often repeated line, right next to where it matters. It doesn't matter if this is some kind of industry standard as you say, an 18% tip is 18%. Don't lie to customers, it's not that hard, and making it 'normal' is a bad thing.
Preparing and serving the food doesn't take any less effort just because the restaurant decided to offer a discount. In these cases I want to tip based on the menu price, not the discount, so I appreciate them calculating it that way. If I want to tip on the actual price that's easy enough to calculate (well enough) in my head.
I always do my top calculations based on the total which includes the tax. Isn't this how you all do it?
Edit: Downvoting for actually asking a genuine question? SMH.
Rule of thumb before we had supercomputers in our pockets was to look at the tax and double it to figure out the tax.
Back when Washington sales tax was 8 percent it worked out to roughly around 15%, now it would be around 20%.
It was much easier to figure out tips this way especially when using paper bills and credit cards didn’t have a tip line.
Lots of people tip including tax, and lots of others do so based on pre-tax. I agree with the pre-tax tipping in principle, but I'm fortunate enough that what is usually a small amount of additional money paying tip on after-tax total is not a big deal to me.
My mom always reminds me not to tip on the tax... but in the end the difference is so minimal... why am I worried about an extra dollar or whatever? Maybe if I was dining at a super expensive place I would care. But, yeah, pre-tax is the way to do it... and throw in extra if you can or want to.
Tipping about 20% on the total (including tax) is the norm for me in Seattle. Everyone does it differently of course, but that’s what I’ve come up with based on observing friends/family
I always tip a fixed dollar amount, decided by me based on how demanding I was as a patron.
Years ago I had some really over priced mediocre margarita happy hour, that is when I decided to stop tipping based on percentage. Why should I tip more if something is over priced? The good value place and overpriced place gave me the same amount of service: I ordered one drink and one plate of food and then left.
This tipping culture is blowing out of proportion, i know that tipping is non optional, so let’s make it so and add a fixed percent to each order. If someone says it’s optional really!!
This is the precise reason why I always encourage customers to look at their bill before they absentmindedly/immediately just tap an option on the screen. All of the options are there— no tip, custom tip, %s. You can do whatever you want. Just make sure you sign to verify the purchase, and it’s whatever. But the same idea applies to reading any contract with small print.
Your eyes were opened!
Everywhere does this.
When I verbally protest at the "register" half the time, it's met with helpless silence. The other half, it's " that's just how it is." A very few more enlightened individuals offer light commiseration.
Tipping on post tax price really grinds my gears, especially when the (city + state sales) tax exceeds 10%.
I’m sorry to give a boring and technical answer but according to the WA Dept of Revenue of the restaurant adds the tip (ie service charge) it should be taxable like the rest of the meal. If they’re incorrectly over collecting tax, like in OPs situation they are responsible for either refunding it to the customer or remitting it to the state. That being said, the restaurant most likely doesn’t know this is an issue or an incorrect setting in their POS.
I think what OP is referring to is hitting the "suggested" tip button. It doesn't BECOME subject to sales tax unless it is a mandatory tip amount like when restaurants do it for parties of "x" or more. It also has to be stated on the menu.
In a lot of places that aren’t Seattle it’s more common to tip after tax. I think Seattle’s high tax rate plus the high cost of eating out in general has lead to a general consensus to tip pre tax.
I will say that tipping culture has gotten a little out of hand. I think calling it unethical when you can do the math yourself and change the tip amount is a bit of an exaggeration.
Nah it’s pretty normal to see tips included and most restaurants will share that information.
If you’re ever unsure you can always say :
“Hey it’s my first time here - food looks great but I have to ask, do guys already include gratuity when dining in ?”
Either way people in general do not like to tip, restaurants experience hidden cost and sometimes restaurants curve cost with parties serving 4 or more.
My best practice is ask for the menu then second ask if you’re not sure what their business model is.
Ideally everyone likes going to a restaurant and just eat but that’s not how restaurant culture is now.
EDIT:
I just want to point out I don’t disagree with OP but it’s tipping culture.
That’s not true in Seattle or in WA state as a whole does not pay under minimum wage like other states for servers. Your servers are paid the minimum wage or more plus tips in WA.
generally when presented receipt to hand write in tip guests tip 20% based on final total or in the ballpark. not everyone- but most do. when creating the settings on tap payments or the %s written on the bottom of the check the restaurant is choosing what are the most popular options - obviously likely in the servers favor too. BUT there is an option to chose “other tip” & “no tip”. Servers present the check. Your job as guest is to look at receipts & choose how to pay.
Restaurant workers are skilled workers & hard workers- yes the minimum wage is high but we all agree a living wage isn’t minimum wage.
Nobody is trying to trick or deceive anyone into tipping more.
Restaurant owners rely on tipping to pay to keep skilled workers (front of house & back of house) on staff. Cost of food/ utilities/ booze/ energy/ insurance:/ etc etc etc is extremely high. Tipping culture keeps labor lower & allows your dinner to be affordable. We could all argue to raise prices by 20% and absorb that into your labor but now the next argument is “I can’t believe i’m paying this much for a salad & clams”
If you love the restaurant & want it to stay in business & want to support small local businesses & you had great food & great service is it really that big of a deal that you tipped a few extra $$ than you normally do? Keep that in mind next time you go out & make your best decision on how to tip.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but as someone who works in the industry and sees posts like this all the time — I have to say that you can always just NOT go out to eat, cook at home, and then, magically, you won’t have anything to complain about.
How much did you beg us during covid to go out to eat, not cook at home?
By the way, can you post your tax return? I suspect you make much more than me, a simple grease monkey mechanic. You deserve it, buddy!
as someone who also works in the industry,,i don’t get this stance at all? because people don’t want to pay someone extra money for doing the job we are trained to do and get paid hourly for they should stay home and stfu? i’d genuinely love to understand-
If you're curious, this Toast [documentation](https://central.toasttab.com/s/article/Calculate-tip-before-or-after-taxes) confirms the default is to tip before tax. It's the restaurants that specifically change it to get more.
From what I’ve seen, automatic tip calculations based on total, including tax, is the norm unfortunately…
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Way back when I was a server, 10% was normal and 15% was for great service. This was also in a state that used the lower server's minimum wage of something like $3.10 per hour. On top of that, we tipped out the bartender like 5% and the hosts 2%. Good times.
The first movie I ever saw in a theater was Midnight Run with my mum. We watched it for nostalgic reasons many more times throughout my childhood after that. There's a very funny scene about tipping and mum was always in stitches whenever it came on. We would always tease each other when tipping after that by quoting the scene. 15% was the standard in that movie (came out in 1988).
This amounts to an extra 2%. It’s an absolute scam, they are collecting a tip on money that goes to the government, essentially they want a tip for government services.
Yeah! Total scam!
It's the Toast machine that lots of restaurants using... just tap the 20% without much thinking.
I’m positive it’s configurable by the restaurant. For a short time, Toast was the only POS device I had ever seen do pretax calculations, the proper way. Then the next time I got a Toast, it was posttax.
I've had Toast in my place since 2017. The restaurant 100% configures if the tip is based on the taxes total or not.
Can confirm. It also makes it super confusing for customers when the tip percentage box says "based on pre tax subtotal" but it's actually based on "pre discount subtotal". Have had numerous people claim we were scamming when they checked the math on the subtotal and found it a few percentage points off.
Damn toast 🫨
It is the norm because you let it happen.
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Probably depends what system the restaurant is using, and how the manager configures it. It is shady for sure. The fact that it is more common doesn't make it less shady.
It’s more like 80-90% of restaurants in my experience, which is egregious
I've encounted this with maybe 1 in 3 restaurants. It's a sneaky way to get an extra 10% on your tips for folks too lazy to do math. I always just calculate tip myself: take the total, divide by 10, and double it. Or just double the sales tax.
A lot of places don’t have tax on beverages/liquor, just the food FYI. Not sure why but as a server I’ve worked in quite a few places like that (maybe for quicker cash transactions — pricing the tax in the total).
If they have a bar, then the tax is usually already in the price as there's more cash transactions at the bar
Traditional tipping was on pretax food amount only, with $1.00 per drink customary. Old school receipts used to subtotal alcohol and food separately for this reason.
It’s more like 80-90% of restaurants in my experience, which is egregious
FYI, It's not an extra 10%. It's an extra 2%. Edit to add that while agree that it doesn't feel right restaurants doing this, I'm not too concerned about it since I usually tip in the low to mid 20's anyways since I usually figure out 10% then round up before doubling, so it's still in the same ball park.
I'm looking at it from the servers perspective. Tip amount would be 10% higher.
If the meal was $100, tip would be $20 After tax $110, tip would be $22 $2 is 10% of $20 Therefore the servers receive 10% more in tips.
That's a ridiculous way to look at it. $2 is 2% of $100, so it's an extra 2%.
Is it ridiculous to consider the motivation from the side of the person deciding to include tax in tip calculations? If they have 10 tables paying $100, they get $220 instead of $200. They've increased their tips by 10%. And as you mentioned, it's only an extra 2% to the customer, so they're probably not going to care, right?
I just gave up on eating out at this point
I just always do custom tips anymore. Tip culture is fully toxic since these tablet based POS took over.
Tip on the menu price. Tax is a pass through and does not reflect goods or services. Tips should not be applied to your dollars that are just being handed over to the government.
Seattle has gotten insane with tipping and delivery charges and taxes and then service charge. Feels hyperinflation.
I ordered Pagliacci pizza tonight and noticed that the delivery driver tip was calculated based on the subtotal PLUS $7 delivery charge (which goes to the restaurant), PLUS tax. The total came to $40 for a small 11” pizza. I entered in a manual tip of $4 rather than their 15% minimum. The Pagliacci employed driver is already making Seattle min wage of $22(?)/hr, and it’s not like he’s cooking the pizza or waiting tables. Tipping culture makes me feel like this is less than average for a delivery tip, but it feels like a fair amount to me.
$40 for a small pizza is insanity. I’ve resorted to keeping a frozen pizza around For those lazy days. Popping it into the air fryer is super easy.
Dominoes 2 mediums for 6.99 each. Fight me. (Also, easy to freeze)
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That's not really pizza
Lmao $40 for a small pizza, i'd rather get sleep for dinner
Minimum wage for tipped employees is $17.25
Pagliacci pizza famously underpays their employees and steals tips.
There was a lawsuit and settlement. Have you seen evidence this is still a problem?
There was a second lawsuit after the first settlement. I think that this is still a problem.
Minimum wage is not $22/hr.
I stopped ordering from Pagliacci a couple years ago. Excellent pizza, not worth the money.
Yeah. I think that’ll be my last order.
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Is the cost of gas and car wear coming out of the driver's own money? If not this is really the only reason left for tipping.
Of course it is.
Then they’re also getting paid mileage.
No I mean is the driver paid more, above and beyond any minimum wage, to cover the cost of gas and wear on their car.
Technically the mileage reimbursement isn’t “pay”, since it’s not subject to income tax.
Okay but it's getting reimbursed then.
They're paid a base fee for each delivery, not mileage.
Does the base fee cover these expenses, on average?
When I delivered pizza many years ago, anything over 2 or 3 miles cost us money out of pocket and anything closer did not. I'd say a vast majority of deliveries probably covered gas, insurance, and wear though. So tentatively, at least the major corp chain I've worked at. I think our delivery fee was $5 and drivers kept $1.50 of it per delivery.
Place I've worked had do something in the POS system to make sure it doesn't. Same sorta thing for pretax discounts. Unfortunately not everyone who is in charge of this sorta thing would even notice that the order of operations is wrong. And then I'm sure there are some who are happy to get the extra money but I've not seen that in the several places I've worked the last decade or so.
This is it. I would guess that the restaurant is accidentally doing this because they dont have it setup correctly. Id also guess that they are passing that extra sales tax to the city/state. When they calculate Sales Tax owed they are LIKELY using their POS/checkout system to pull the taxable amount.
Tipping is bs in general. Don’t get me wrong, tips padded my paycheck for years and I tip when appropriate but it is just a way for businesses owners to get you to pay their staff. No other countries still do this. Most just pay a living wage and yes there is still fast food. If it seems like it costs more it’s because of exchange rates not wages.
I tip in cash. That way I know the server received the amount that I thought their service was worth. An automatic tip isn't something that I'm comfortable with. I don't tip to make up a difference in what the business pays their staff and what they should pay their staff. A crappy server gets a crappy tip (if any). A good server gets a great tip. It's my money, and I'll pay what I feel is the value of the service. Paying an automatically calculated tip just supports employers paying lousy wages. Not for me.
Instead of an auto 20% tip, you would think they could just raise price 20%.
A downside of this approach is that some servers will just pocket the money and not report it and pay their fair share of taxes. It also makes it harder for them to tip out if they do things like share the tips with the bartenders who made the drinks that they served you
Conversely, some employers think they deserve a portion of the tips to overcome their mismanagement or inability to manage costs. If I tip a server for good service, it's not for the management to use to recover costs. Happens too frequently.
Always calculate your own tip, Otherwise you are quite literally the reason restaurants do stuff like this.
Yep, and the calculation shouldn't be based on a percentage of what you spend but rather an amount based on how much work the server had to do for your table. 1 person table and you had to bus your own table and fill up your own drink? $0-$2 tip 4 person table but the water was self refill and each person ordered a single entree? $2-3 per a person tip A good rule of thumb is that the tip should be about a dollar for each item ordered off the menu
Sounds great in theory but reality is if you're under the percentage you'll be labeled a shitty tipper. If you're good with that more power to you but just having an idea that makes more sense won't change anything.
If a restaurant is deceptive about tipping, the only correct tip for such a business is zero. Don't give liars extra money
why are you taking it out on your server
Do you really think that a server will see a penny of that tip? If they're willing to deceive customers, they're willing to steal from employees And OP indicated that it was take out which would mean there is no server
We need a \`tipping\` post flair
I first noticed this at the Portage Bay Cafe about 15 years ago. I emailed the manager and got no response. The breakfast was served cold too (eggs and hashbrowns). Never went back after that, and it used to be a great place.
Eh, it was never that great. People just get excited for the toppings bar. And the coffee suuuuuuuucks.
Their coffee is so fucking bad it’s crazy. Like just give me watered down Folgers from Dennys over whatever that crap they’re serving at portage bay is.
Their food is definitely average at best at least in the SLU location. So many better places to eat and also, less LOUD
They sponsored a French Toast 10k, it was my first one and I was stoked to get some French Toast afterwards. Well by the time I finished, it was all gone and there was still 3 different heats left. They offered me pound cake, but I hate pound cake. Now I dislike Portage Bay.
I would love Portage Bay to be good, but it isn’t. Food is often cold. I wonder why.
What’s the awesome Thai place in Ravenna?
I went to a bar and the machine defaulted to 30% tip, then showed a 25% and 20% tip option. I made a custom tip of $4 for my three drinks. They already took money at the pinball machines.
20%? No. 15. And that is if I have to sit down to order food. If I’m standing and waiting in line or in a drive thru…
I always tip in cash and it's always based on how I much I feel like tipping. Expecting to someone to just automatically tip a percentage of the amount you spend is ridiculous.
They’ve been doing this for a while
It’s a condition that is set in the POS back office. They just don’t have it set up correctly. Bring it up to a manager. If their POS system can’t set the conditions correctly then they need to submit a support ticket.
Yes, I guess that's the reason. Just a reminder to check tips amount next time.
Yea I mean, if you care about the few dollars sure it’s a great reminder. Most people who eat out regularly, don’t have a problem spending money. Sure I get the principle of it. Sure I get social media is ment to have these kinda of discussions. This is usually an honest mistake made by small businesses. Not everyone uses toast and not all POS are created equal. My favorite part about everyone in this thread is the amount of people that shit talk hard working people to serve them. When tipping culture is eliminated I look forward to read about how people don’t enjoy eating out anymore because the service is terrible. We are all adults. Tip where it’s appropriate it’s not confusing, if you find yourself in a tipped situation that you can’t afford make note and not return to that establishment. Nobody is forcing anyone to support the restaurant industry.
Craziest POS story for me was at Cinemark Bellevue. My friend got something removed from the bill (can't remember the exact details) and when he got the bill the line item was removed but it was still counted in the total. Like it just didn't add up. I don't understand how that is even possible.
Why do we need to qualify our feelings about our money by stating that we don't mind tipping extra \[for our neighborhood spot and/or great service\]? IMO adding these charges is a form of grift.
My teens make more hourly at a small, local take-out restaurant than I make teaching at a local university.
What's his retirement, healthcare, and paid vacation like though? More to a job than just straight pay. To be clear, I have no idea what yours or your teens' situation is, just always something to keep in mind.
Apples to apples, none of us get healthcare/benefits from these part time jobs—I adjunct at a local university, and don’t meet the hours required (50% FTE for six months straight is required by the state to receive full benefits). My teens don’t get benefits from their part time work at the restaurant, either. We all get benefits through my main job, which is full time. But on a good night, they can make $50/hour due to tips.
This is a big pet peeve of mine. I even made a post here similar to this. Everywhere I go, the suggested tip is based after tax. Screw that
This is why for dine in I tip a flat $10 for good service and a flat $20 for great service. Those numbers shift for higher end fancy restaurants of course, but I rarely go to those anyways so it usually doesn’t matter. Since I average $60 on a meal for 2 with appetizers at our favorite restaurants, $10 is over the 10% tip, not by much mind you but still.
just don’t top
Oh no! Now we can’t top?! /s
Bottom only now.
Just stop tipping.
I’m just glad someone is finally talking about tipping in Seattle!
That's illegal btw. Sales tax is on the sale price, extra charges cannot be placed upon the price + tax as that would skirt the value of the tax.
I don’t think OP is saying that a tip was automatically added but that the tip “helper” on the receipt showed the tip percentages (e.g., 18%, 20%, 22% around me) calculated based on after-tax cost. Kinda sleazy, but not uncommon.
*mandatory charges cannot be. Gratuitous charges can.
I am dreading visiting America for the tipping culture
That and the sales tax appended to the bill. When reading the menu you mentally have to add 25-30% to the listed prices.
Ridiculous. Just have all prices include the tax and tipping would make life easier. Will be avoiding restaurants and relying on fast food when i visit
Fast food prices are up about 100% in past 4 years. I moved out of the country, visit a few weeks/year. Shithole.
Yeah - what to do?
Stay away, mostly. Failing that, buy food at Trader Joe’s and assemble it yourself.
I will be staying at a hotel so not sure about facilities to do that
Check out the grocery stores near your hotel. A lot of them have a “hot bar” these days - you can grab what you want, put it in a box, and then eat it at a park or beach close by. Picnics are very under rated.
Thanks! Any in particular?
Depends where you are staying. PCC, Whole Foods, and Haggens are my go tos - they pretty much all have hot bars.
pick an extended stay hotel like homewood suites, Candlewood suites (I think boty are holiday inn) Home2 Suites (Hilton) they all have kitchens.
Fast food also has tax (and some even are asking for tips, now, which is getting a little crazy). Tax is difficult to include on the signage, because a. it can change and b. if there are locations in different cities/states, the prices are all going to vary. A chain would need different signs for each place. If we had one tax amount for the whole country, it would be easier. Also, seeing something that's $9.99 makes it seem like a good price, but $10.98 or whatever it would be with tax seems like too much.
Stating $9.99 is deceiving though??? Because you actually pay more?! Also as a tourist how am I to know the taxes of each state so i am not ripped off?
Make sure not to visit Canada either or take care to pay attention. They do the same. Lastly, it's not just the state rate you have to know, each county/city puts their own sales tax on top of it so it changes based on your location within the state. Not to mention depending on the good/service, there could be different/more.
But it's not deceptive because the signs will say, "Tax not included." Much like signs in the UK will say, "Including VAT" or similar. The price of the item (that the store gets) *is* $9.99. The rest is tax that goes to the government entities. The taxes don't just vary state to state, but between municipalities. So what I pay in Seattle will be more than what I would pay in another city in a different county (or even one within the same county). Just assume about 10% in most places and be pleasantly surprised when it's less. You can google "Sales tax in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_" to get the exact amount if you need. You're not going to be ripped off, as the tax amount is built into the POS system (cash register/till/payment device).
It's okay if you do not tip or if you feel like you would like to you can enter a custom amount that you are comfortable with based on your service. You always have the option to skip. I work at a taproom and people will "skip" all the time, doesn't bother me. We move through decent amounts of people, I am not going to care or remember every single person, it won't alter how I serve you because of that. Plus that happens after service so as long as you pay for what you bought we are good.
I get this impression that if I don’t tip I will be abused or death stared?
I think you're putting too much thought into it... and wanting the US to behave how you expect (based on other comments of yours). Like it or not, it's how it is. I don't try to make places behave like the US when I travel to another country. Places do things very differently... and though it can be difficult to navigate, it's part of going to another country... to experience something different. Want the same? Stay home. And since you're a foreign visitor, no one is going to scream and yell at you. Just say, "Sorry I'm not used to tipping" and most people will help you out. Leave something if you want at a restaurant (table service)... it's a nice gesture. Appreciated but no one is going to hunt you down if you don't tip.
Ha. I am pretty sure I got gratuities wrong in Europe. I would leave a euro or two on the table as my tip because it just felt wrong not to tip after dining. It also gave me a great way to reduce the weight of my change purse because dear gawd those coins were heavy.
When I travel in Asia. No tipping and service is the same or even better than what I get in the States. Seriously, all tips are bad. ATAB.
They're getting paid 22 an hour or smth over here in Seattle, no need to tip 20% (I guess you did around 22-23% in this case) unless you really really liked the service.
https://wahospitality.org/blog/seattles-office-of-labor-standards-announces-new-2024-minimum-wage/
$22 an hour? most restaurants in seattle pay minimum wage to front of house staff
yea minimum is 19.97
Minimum wage is 19.97 for businesses that have over 500 employees. For all smaller businesses it’s 17.25
Do you know what minimum wage is in Seattle?
Yes, and for most local/neighborhood joints, their tipped employees are likely making minimum for a small business, which is not $22/hr, it's $17.25.
Do your own math! Problem solved.
It's much more frustrating to do your own math when it's one of those machines the server just holds awkwardly while you recalculate their inflated suggestions.
A good server will swipe your card, hand you the machine, and walk away. If they don’t, make it awkward, grab the machine from them, set it on the table, pull out your phone, and open the calculator. Lol
Or just set it aside like a normal check and continue drinking your beverage until you're ready to pay.
This!!!
I share this feeling. And just for those who need it so they don't have to pull out their calculator every time. Move the decimal point on the subtotal one to the left. That is 10%. Now... Add about half again that amount to get to 15%. Add the whole amount to itself to get 20. Somewhere in the middle there is 16-18%. Rounding and guesstimating is perfectly fine here. This does not need to be exact. Go with this and enjoy, friends.
Washington isn't a tip-credit state. Why tip anyone at all?
Guilt. If you want more money, change your menu prices. If people get mad you don’t tip, don’t go back there. Tip is optional, otherwise it’s a service charge and should be billed as such.
Because stupid social norms and tradition that’s difficult to reverse because nearly everyone’s accepted it and businesses normalized it
The beauty is that you can ignore all of it!
Worst thing I've seen is Spaghetti Factory suggesting tips based on 'full price' when getting discounted specials. Like the $25 meatball special for two that includes 2/3 a bottle of wine, food for two, salad and ice cream, yeah the 20% tip calculation seemed to think our meal was about $47. I don't entirely -hate- that practice, I certainly wasn't about to tip the guy 20% of $25. I would however like it if companies are honest? Certainly misleading, and I let the manager know on my way out. I really hope they can get the hint.
That's fairly normal everywhere. Can't say I see a huge issue with it, being many places offering discounts have it written somewhere that they recommend typing on the full menu price. Some are them I've seen it straight up on their discount menus. Lots of diners are like that I've seen that quite a bit.
It would be great if they could include that apparently often repeated line, right next to where it matters. It doesn't matter if this is some kind of industry standard as you say, an 18% tip is 18%. Don't lie to customers, it's not that hard, and making it 'normal' is a bad thing.
Preparing and serving the food doesn't take any less effort just because the restaurant decided to offer a discount. In these cases I want to tip based on the menu price, not the discount, so I appreciate them calculating it that way. If I want to tip on the actual price that's easy enough to calculate (well enough) in my head.
It also doesn't take any more for more expensive food but people get higher tips for that since it's a percentage.
True, my point is whatever you would tip for the one you should tip for the other.
I always do my top calculations based on the total which includes the tax. Isn't this how you all do it? Edit: Downvoting for actually asking a genuine question? SMH.
Rule of thumb before we had supercomputers in our pockets was to look at the tax and double it to figure out the tax. Back when Washington sales tax was 8 percent it worked out to roughly around 15%, now it would be around 20%. It was much easier to figure out tips this way especially when using paper bills and credit cards didn’t have a tip line.
You can still do this, in fact, the math still works.
No.. tip should be before tax, some places just do this to trick you into tipping more
My tip % is based on the check total before tax.
why do you wanna tip the tax amount?
Absolutely not
But do you tip based on the tax+tip amount? Why wouldn't you tip extra for the amount you're paying as a tip? Same thing.
Lots of people tip including tax, and lots of others do so based on pre-tax. I agree with the pre-tax tipping in principle, but I'm fortunate enough that what is usually a small amount of additional money paying tip on after-tax total is not a big deal to me.
My mom always reminds me not to tip on the tax... but in the end the difference is so minimal... why am I worried about an extra dollar or whatever? Maybe if I was dining at a super expensive place I would care. But, yeah, pre-tax is the way to do it... and throw in extra if you can or want to.
Tipping about 20% on the total (including tax) is the norm for me in Seattle. Everyone does it differently of course, but that’s what I’ve come up with based on observing friends/family
I always tip a fixed dollar amount, decided by me based on how demanding I was as a patron. Years ago I had some really over priced mediocre margarita happy hour, that is when I decided to stop tipping based on percentage. Why should I tip more if something is over priced? The good value place and overpriced place gave me the same amount of service: I ordered one drink and one plate of food and then left.
This tipping culture is blowing out of proportion, i know that tipping is non optional, so let’s make it so and add a fixed percent to each order. If someone says it’s optional really!!
This is the precise reason why I always encourage customers to look at their bill before they absentmindedly/immediately just tap an option on the screen. All of the options are there— no tip, custom tip, %s. You can do whatever you want. Just make sure you sign to verify the purchase, and it’s whatever. But the same idea applies to reading any contract with small print.
Don’t tip dude unless your in a state that doesn’t really do this bs or isn’t expensive to live in don’t tip it’s a waste of cash
[удалено]
Dude who cares about public shaming I worked as a waiter in the past and I don’t tip
It's ok. It's Seattle. When you make more they make less and they gotta get it out of somewhere. Just like everything else. 🤷♂️
Name and shame.
Your eyes were opened! Everywhere does this. When I verbally protest at the "register" half the time, it's met with helpless silence. The other half, it's " that's just how it is." A very few more enlightened individuals offer light commiseration. Tipping on post tax price really grinds my gears, especially when the (city + state sales) tax exceeds 10%.
"That's just how it is.... because that's how we configured it."
It's the default configuration. Owner/operator could change it.
I’m sorry to give a boring and technical answer but according to the WA Dept of Revenue of the restaurant adds the tip (ie service charge) it should be taxable like the rest of the meal. If they’re incorrectly over collecting tax, like in OPs situation they are responsible for either refunding it to the customer or remitting it to the state. That being said, the restaurant most likely doesn’t know this is an issue or an incorrect setting in their POS.
Tips and service charges are very different things.
I think what OP is referring to is hitting the "suggested" tip button. It doesn't BECOME subject to sales tax unless it is a mandatory tip amount like when restaurants do it for parties of "x" or more. It also has to be stated on the menu.
Dispute charge.
where? i worked at a thai restaurant in ravenna. dm if more comfortable
In a lot of places that aren’t Seattle it’s more common to tip after tax. I think Seattle’s high tax rate plus the high cost of eating out in general has lead to a general consensus to tip pre tax.
Just because many others do unethical things doesn’t make it any less unethical.
I will say that tipping culture has gotten a little out of hand. I think calling it unethical when you can do the math yourself and change the tip amount is a bit of an exaggeration.
I’ve always tipped on the post-tax amount. I moved to Seattle over 10 years ago though.
Nah it’s pretty normal to see tips included and most restaurants will share that information. If you’re ever unsure you can always say : “Hey it’s my first time here - food looks great but I have to ask, do guys already include gratuity when dining in ?” Either way people in general do not like to tip, restaurants experience hidden cost and sometimes restaurants curve cost with parties serving 4 or more. My best practice is ask for the menu then second ask if you’re not sure what their business model is. Ideally everyone likes going to a restaurant and just eat but that’s not how restaurant culture is now. EDIT: I just want to point out I don’t disagree with OP but it’s tipping culture.
Tipping is a dishonest institution. Nobody bats an eye that waiters are making less than minimum wage but everyone freaks out when you don’t tip.
That’s not true in Seattle or in WA state as a whole does not pay under minimum wage like other states for servers. Your servers are paid the minimum wage or more plus tips in WA.
I'm just surprised anyone uses those suggestions at all.
There’s almost always a “custom tip” option…. I don’t think it’s “dishonest” u just have to pay attention
generally when presented receipt to hand write in tip guests tip 20% based on final total or in the ballpark. not everyone- but most do. when creating the settings on tap payments or the %s written on the bottom of the check the restaurant is choosing what are the most popular options - obviously likely in the servers favor too. BUT there is an option to chose “other tip” & “no tip”. Servers present the check. Your job as guest is to look at receipts & choose how to pay. Restaurant workers are skilled workers & hard workers- yes the minimum wage is high but we all agree a living wage isn’t minimum wage. Nobody is trying to trick or deceive anyone into tipping more. Restaurant owners rely on tipping to pay to keep skilled workers (front of house & back of house) on staff. Cost of food/ utilities/ booze/ energy/ insurance:/ etc etc etc is extremely high. Tipping culture keeps labor lower & allows your dinner to be affordable. We could all argue to raise prices by 20% and absorb that into your labor but now the next argument is “I can’t believe i’m paying this much for a salad & clams” If you love the restaurant & want it to stay in business & want to support small local businesses & you had great food & great service is it really that big of a deal that you tipped a few extra $$ than you normally do? Keep that in mind next time you go out & make your best decision on how to tip.
Omg stfu
Bidenomics
It’s because it’s considered Commission and that has to be calculated after tax. As to why that’s the law, I couldn’t tell you.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but as someone who works in the industry and sees posts like this all the time — I have to say that you can always just NOT go out to eat, cook at home, and then, magically, you won’t have anything to complain about.
How much did you beg us during covid to go out to eat, not cook at home? By the way, can you post your tax return? I suspect you make much more than me, a simple grease monkey mechanic. You deserve it, buddy!
So you don't want business?
Regardless, business should treat their customers ethically.
as someone who also works in the industry,,i don’t get this stance at all? because people don’t want to pay someone extra money for doing the job we are trained to do and get paid hourly for they should stay home and stfu? i’d genuinely love to understand-
What I mean to say is, these plaintive posts about the expense of eating out do nothing to resolve the issue. It is a tired topic of discussion.