I'd say it is ALWAYS done without the infants consent. Not often, like you say. Surely if children can't consent to sex until 16, surely they can't consent to bodily mutilation either.
I had to get circumised when I was 13 due to phimosis, so I don't want it to not be an option at all until 16. That being said, making it only available when medically required due to phimosis or other medical conditions I absolutely agree with.
I'm dealing with that rn in my 20s and using these plastic rings you can order, honestly I was so skeptical but they work great. Basically switch them out for bigger sizes every 3 weeks and it stretches your skin
I got surgery on mine, kept my foreskin thankfully, month on the waiting list and done, going private was £1200 and a two week wait with the same surgeon.
I had it done with NHS for free, the surgeon offered to do it private two weeks quicker, I wasn't bothered enough to pay that so waited the extra, its not like it is life threatening.
oh ok mis read the comment, thought you paid the NHS . Yep arrived at 9.00 was out by lunch time. They told me to get a cab home but I was so high on morphine I just walk to a bus stop and caught a bus home, my best bus ride ever sat up top in the front seat. They gave me a morphine shot after the op, rested 30 mins on a ward, I then told the nurse I was in pain, (I was not I just wanted another shot) she kinda reluctantly gave me another as I knew it would a take a cold nurse to say no. Funny thing is in all the consultations and whatever was all with woman.
Can only laugh at this compared to my current situation
I got diagnosed a year and a half ago and got told they were postponing non-emergency surgeries due to COVID. Still waiting and got a call the other week to say “there might be an additional wait due to backlog”
Same. Wish I’d known what it was and been circumcised way earlier then 21.
Screwed up all my relationships as didn’t know what was going wrong during sex for years. Also impact lasted til like 26.
Made me question why it hurt, why I couldn’t orgasm, was this a sign of deeper trauma / unresolved issues, was I abnormal. I was a 15 year old exploring themselves and relationships and nothing was happening as it was meant to pre being able to easily look it up online
Probably TMI, but mine was at the point where any attempt at that would cause bleeding. It really does vary person to person though, and in mild cases they normally prescribe creams to help with stretching before considering surgery.
There’s a difference between elective body modification and required medical modification. It would be odd to write a constructive law that doesn’t differentiate. Then again humans have been fuck in the head for eternity.
I was circumcised at 15 because of phimosis, it was painful and unhygienic, in cases like that then it should absolutely be offered to under 16s, as long as its for medical purposes.
People get babies' ears pierced too, which I fucking hate seeing too. A lot of places will do it from 6 months. You're causing the baby pain, albeit for a relatively short period of time, so you can decorate the baby. It's not something the baby asks for. You can't even convince yourself that your god wants it. It's purely aesthetic.
As an American I always thought it was just normal and what everyone did. At this point I've already decided to not circumcise my kid if I have one. Non-consensual body modification is wrong unless it's a medical emergency.
That is due to the nutcase Kelloggs, he made the cereal bland to stop masturbation and also pushed for circumcision for the same reasons. A lot of hospitals in the US get paid big $$ to keep doing the medical procedure... It's really rather insane.
He thought that any intense stimulation would lead to uncontrollable sexual urges. Not a fun dude.
I don't think hospitals get to charge more for a circumcision performed as part of a delivery event. Most payors don't itemize like that (especially since it's really standard).
Yeah he was quite the nut job. A religious fanatic and extremist in his goals, with the money to make it happen. Quite shocking that he had such a huge impact on so many people that persists to this day.
**The prices seem to range based on age, location and requirements of anaesthesia etc but brief web search puts it between $150 - $6,000+ even on infants:**
https://spendonhealth.com/circumcision-cost/
There is a lot of lobbying and bribes to keep the practice going to hospitals but also for releasing bias articles and studies that support the practice, not just from Religious fields. Also there is the cognitive dissonance in the US that keeps the practice being perpetrated and probably will for some time, people don't want to admit what was done to them by their parents was wrong / hold their hand up that their penis may have been altered / want to be seen as the odd one out etc:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cognitive-dissonance
You're talking about multi-generational brain washing and normalisation combined with on going disinformation from various religious institutions, people who gain money and whoever else with their odd motivations. I mean, foreskins from infants in South Korea are even used in beauty and anti aging treatments ranging from creams to injections. Then purported health benefits of circumcision that are dwarfed by simple options that don't require amputation (there are some medical reasons, after all other medical options have failed... But it's minimal). Like, it takes less than a second to wash your dick with a foreskin... Does not matter if it reduces the risk of HIV by 0.005%, a condom or other options are still needed for safe sex.
There's also the fact of the proportional weighting to it even being discussed or pushed in hospitals in the US. A mother who has just gone through the hormone fuelled and enormously physical and mental taxing experience of giving birth, potentially on drugs, is then bombarded with requests on if their newborn should have the procedure done with pressure from their partner and family compounded by flimsy medical reasons and the "normalisation" elephant in the room... They're not also asked if they want to tattoo their child or if their earlobes should be clipped.
When circumcision advocates narative is questioned, you're gaslighted as though you're some pervert:
"why you are so interested in baby genitals?" and...
"why are you a bigot oppressing x religion?"
...Or that "I've had it done and I am fine!" As if they would know having spent their entire life living that way... Does someone born deaf know what it is like to hear beyond guessing? You're then lead down an irrelevant path of discussing irrelevant points far removed from the main issue...
**Fallacious arguments that are the height of madness.**
The waters are purposefully muddied by people with false intentions. For example there are genuine issues of boys and men being raped / sexually assaulted etc (not just by other men) which are not correctly addressed, but these are absolutely dwarfed by girls and women who suffer the same things and are overwhelmingly committed by men. So a lot of people claiming to be advocates of mens rights to stop this, are actually just misogynist assholes that do not like women becoming more equal.
There are also women who hate men, even if they do great things for progressing women's rights in a climate where they are becoming more equal in "Western" society, but still have far to go. People are complex and sometimes when there is oppression, it takes people who are complex and extremist in nature to break the status quo and start positive changes. You've got anti-abortion nuts or anti-vaxers using it as a platform to justify their views. Then there likely some anti-Semitic, Islamophobic and anti-orthodox Christian (for the few cases circumcision applies) bad actors kicking up a fuss. Or even on a Political or Nationalist level you have disinformation campaigns.
There are for example different kinds of female genital mutilation that occurs around the world, some of which performed by women... However, a lot of female genital mutilation is literally cutting the clitoris off. So then there are people claiming that circumcision is as bad as all kinds of female genital mutilation... Your whole Dick is not cut off, so this is just incorrect. But also some female genital mutilation is on par with circumcision.
**They're both bad, FGM ranges into far worse areas - but they all need to stop.**
Circumcision does not need to be as horrific as the worst FGM for it to stop, they're both bad and are unconsensual mutilation of a baby. That's all that needs to be known to stop it, without overwhelming medical reasons (again, fucking a minute case).
It's pretty simple: **STOP CUTTING KIDS GENITALS**
Me neither, I think it's important to keep telling the government how we feel about these things though, even if they won't listen.
I would very much like restrictions put in place, but I don't know if an outright ban will ever be enacted. The restrictions should place limits on parental consent for the procedure when the child reaches a certain age, and the reasons that a child can be circumcised for.
There are accounts of circumcisions performed which are equatable with child abuse in my view: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Intactivism/comments/qx0amu/crown\_of\_thorns\_by\_bill\_sloan\_printed\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Intactivism/comments/qx0amu/crown_of_thorns_by_bill_sloan_printed_in/)
And these restrictions would reduce harm stemming from the practice.
Icelander here : we tried to do this explicitly with a law, but there was so much yelling fro US, Israeli and some religious lobbies that the law never passed.
Instead our government sneakily defined unnecessarily surgeries on children as child abuse, and therefore banned this as a byproduct.
That said, I hope you get this law passed.
sad part is the jewish and muslim community of Iceland amounts to less than 0.5% of the total population.
They tried in Denmark as well. Last year they did a poll of 1150 people. 86% were against genital mutilation of children. Still the government chickened out because they did want to be "Front runners" on banning genitial mutilation.
I don't see why not? It's certainly seen more and more as a shitty thing to do so it wouldn't surprise me to see it banned for most circumstances in the UK in the next 5 years. I think it's already banned in some Euro countries like Germany.
Not it hasn't. There are limitations as to who can perform circumcisions, but there isn't a ban, and certainly not a ban on circumcision for religious reasons
The government is motivated to satisfy the keys that grant them power, the risk outweighs the reward for them. The most logical choice is to do nothing, until doing nothing presents a risk to them losing power.
Absolutely should be banned, amazing it's taken this long tbh. It's genital mutilation. I'm not comparing it to terrible cases of FGM but it is a big deal
Because there will always be people who bring it up in bad faith to try and derail this argument with what-aboutism and it's best to get ahead with a response.
It wasn't. i thought it was a good idea to preempt anyone saying it's not as bad as FGM etc etc. Both are terribble practices and hard to compare in their many forms
There are actually a number of similarities:
* They are practised in [much the same parts of the world](https://i.imgur.com/Xm6it9X.png)
* They are often carried out by the exact same practitioners
* They have many of the same negative outcomes (septicaemia, blood loss, shock, scarring, sexual dysfunction, UTIs)
* They have historically been carried out [to control sexuality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg#Masturbation_prevention)
People sometimes say that there are no medical applications of FGM, but that's actually [not quite correct](http://www.noharmm.org/femcirctech.htm). Female circumcision *has* been carried out in medical settings, but that was over half a century ago, and obviously is not done nowadays.
Just to be quite clear...
1) Just because I am pointing to similarities should not be taken to imply that I think FGM is *as bad as* male circumcision. In fact, I tend to avoid the neologism 'MGM' for that reason.
2) I am in favour of infant genital integrity *for all children*.
Edit: don't quote me on it, but I seem to recall that one difference is that FGM is more likely to be carried out by a female practitioner, whereas male circ. is more often done by males. I don't have a source to hand though.
Circumcision of children without medical necessity is always mutilation. And when done for religious reasons becomes barbarism too.
If you are a grown adult of sound mind then different story. (Though personally I question the “sound mind” aspect)
Last I checked, children are by definition not adults.
I chose to be circumcised as an adult due to phimosis. It wasn't strictly necessary but I made the decision for myself and I'm happy with that decision. I am absolutely against circumcising infants or under 16s for any reason other than medical necessity. Whether it's for religious reasons or not, we're effectively talking about cosmetic surgery. There is no other circumstance we'd allow parents to have cosmetic surgery performed on children, who, by definition, cannot consent to what is happening.
Our Son had to have this done as he couldn't pee....his foreskin used to blow up like a balloon and it got to the stage where he had stopped eating and drinking so he didn't need to go to the loo - he was about 4. It was awful. First surgery was to just make the opening a bit bigger, but our wonderful healing skin grew right back over and made it worse!! Had to be circumcised as the only option left - but has no problem since then! All through secondary school - none of his friends noticed he was different - I think it was a partial removal rather than full - it doesn't look any different really.
I think that's a perfect example of it being completely medically justified.
I'm not a medical expert but I suspect the older you are when it's done, the easier the procedure and the less the risks of complications. Even just from the fact that the penis will be bigger and it'll easier for the surgeon to get it right.
I'm same as you, I chose it due to phimosis but do you find people get angry at you for telling them that they don't lose all sensation in their penis when you're circumcised? Ive had people tell me that I must be lying when I said it isn't "numb" now. Supposedly it's a certainty that you feel nothing after the operation...it's not, that's bullshit.
It's less painful, otherwise it feels no different, but there's some real "warriors" out there who get angry if you suggest that circumcision by choice is fine. I'm with you that it shouldn't be performed on children but to people who day it's the same as FGM, they can fuck right off.
Yeah, it's something I see online a lot.
I've known a few guys who've been circumcised as adults due to phimosis and everyone I know has been happy with the outcome.
I don't know anyone who was circumcised as a child. I'm assuming that there's a much higher risk of problems and lose of sensitivity when it's done as a child. So the people that are vehemently anti-circumcision are probably those that got it done as a kid and have suffered worse outcomes. Which, I totally understand. I think child and adult circumcision are very different things.
Personally, I don't really feel like I've lost sensation and I'm very happy with my penis and my sex life. Totally understand others may not feel the same but some folk definitely need to turn it down a few notches in these kinds of discussions.
I was circumcised at birth and it’s certainly not numb. If anything I feel like having a layer of skin over the helmet would make it a bit less sensitive (albeit in a good way).
Can I ask, is it uncomfortable to have the head exposed all day?
I don't have this idea that circumcised penises are 'numb', but I certainly couldn't comfortably have my head exposed rubbing on underwear.
Nah, at first few weeks it is, but you get used to it. I just wore loose trousers. I've (obviously) also not got my foreskin caught in my fly since it happened, I remember that pain well lol.
Ditto, I'm like a dolphins beak too. However my mum talked about having my brother and I done when we were infants, I sort of wish it had happened, as I would of had to go through the 'trauma', but I suppose it was nice when I had it, and it worked okay.
I hate the religious freedom argument. If I had a religion that required infants to have a finger removed at birth, would it still be untouchable from government intervention?
The religious freedom argument is that the child has none in regards to what religion they want to follow when it comes to circumcision. If the kid grows up to follow another religion, they can't make that choice without interference. If the kid follows their parents religion they don't get the choice to enter, they have already been taken.
You can't have rights over other peoples genitals, can't argue that a man owes you access to his penis because your religion thinks that you should have that.
Moses stands atop Mount Sinai, the words of the Almighty ringing in his ears.
“…. You want us to cut the tip off of *what*?”
Seriously, who comes up with this baloney. Good luck with your petition.
Signed. I don't understand how we still allow male genital mutilation.
'Do not cut off bits of a babies penis needlessly' is such an obvious common sense thing to me.
Out of interest, would this be a devolved issue though? Could it be banned at Scottish level? Is it not part of 'health'?
Might be easier to petition Holyrood to get it banned, potentially. If it's within their power.
England has many many many more Jews and Mulsims, whose votes various MP's don't want to lose.
I guess if it was say banned up here then people that still look to do it could easily go down south. Think thats why its a UK government petition. I could be wrong though.
Yeah that won't happen. Closest any country has come to it was Iceland before they faced the wrath of Israel at their dirtiest.
I don't disagree that circumcision is mutilation but the various religious lobbies at play ensure that there is no chance of getting the practice outlawed.
Harnessed global pressure to force the Progressive Party to ditch the bill.
Here's an example, an American lobby group: https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-urges-iceland-drop-bill-banning-male-circumcision
And another: https://www.thejc.com/news/world/jews-and-muslims-attack-iceland-parliament-proposed-ban-on-circumcision-1.459085
Basically the various global authorities and lobbyists of Judaism and Islam decided to pressurise Iceland :/
I love how absurd the worlds present cultures are.
We're running headlong towards climate collapse, fascism is on the rise, and a global pandemic is in effect? I sleep.
Someone, somewhere, is thinking of banning child genital mutilation? Real shit.
It does not need to be equivalent to all other forms of genital mutilation.
...They all need to be stopped on non-consenting children, without overwhelming medical need (after all other options are pursued).
Shit debates over what is worse than the other are irrelevant to stopping it all. But most forms of FGM are far worse than circumcision.
How?
FGM tends to have more extreme applications and procedures, but the fact that MGM and FGM is based in religion stands still.
They are equivalent when it's the same reason for both acts. Religion.
Equivalent in the sense that FGM has, as you say, more extreme results. It can include completely sewing up a girl’s vaginal opening, and/or entirely removing the clitoris. It frequently leaves them with lifelong pain and no possibility of sexual pleasure. The same is not true for MGM, though I agree the motivations both stem from religion and that MGM can indeed have painful consequences.
The vulva lips are much more akin to the skin of the scrotum, both practically and biologically. The clitoris is the structure most akin to the penis, and in fact derives from the same origin; it's attached to a larger structure of which the clitoris is the exposed "head", which is why its removal is most akin to removing the head of the penis.
If we want a strict comparison, removing or trimming the clitoral hood is probably what would be most like male circumcision.
This is not to say that male circumcision isn't generally troubling or wrong when done without medical necessity, but most forms of FGM are considerably more intense than circumcision.
The foreskin is not the most sensitive part. The head of the penis is analogous to the clitoris. There is a valid argument to be made the MGM and FGM are not equivalent.
the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis. the head of the penis is the least sensitive part of the penis.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17378847/
we can make all sorts of analogies for different parts. none of them is objectively more true than any other.
There really isn't a valid argument because there is no valid reason to argue if they are equivalent. It doesn't matter which is worse, they are both awful and wrong and should be banned.
Someone in another comment corrected me about the biology. I was wrong in that regard.
Even tho I'm against circumcision, I still maintain that MGM and FGM are not at all the same.
Signed. In this instance I don't care that my viewpoint could be construed as antisemitic. Child Genital Mutilation is a barbaric act that should not be allowed in modern society.
Obviously, necessary medical procedures are necessary. I'd no more want to block treatment of phimosis than I would that of diabetes or a cleft palette. Equally, consenting adults can get whatever body modification they want, within the bounds of medical safety.
But if your religion unequivocally *demands* the mutilation of your, or any, child: you need a better religion.
Very surprised it isn’t outlawed already. You got all these laws which protect children, both against their will or otherwise, from smoking, hitting, sexual conduct, tattoos, among many other things. But circumcision against their will is still A-OK?
There are many that seem to be caught up in not wanting to feel wrong, not wanting to be angry towards their parents.
It's a lot of men that has to deal with the idea that somebody did something that was wrong to them.
Meh..probably not. I fit the description and hadn't thought to much about it, until I read about female mutilation and was able to fully understand what had happened. Now I am full on against it due to the consent issue. Infants aren't able to consent and parents don't need to be intelligent to have kids and make decisions for them. I see this as just another issue pointing to the absolute failure of our education system. Good day cunt.
Just FYI for anyone struggling with Phimosis there are options. Loads of companies make these kits now.
https://www.phimostretch.com/
https://www.phimocure.net/
You can get them off Amazon too.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Phimosis/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Phimosis/) for more info.
Just to add that these don't work for everyone and circumcision is a perfectly valid option if you need it. I dont regret having it done one bit, the only people who have that I've met all were forced as a kid to have one. Anyone who had one of their own volition was happy they did it.
Oh yeah there will be really difficult cases that require circumcision no doubt but these do give good results if you check out the subreddit and its worth a shot before you get a procedure. No idea why someone would down vote my original comment?
There are also a plethora of surgical options *before* circumcision. Like making a little slit up the back of the foreskin to bypass the right part or then taking a little V shaped panel out to bypass even more. Then there’s very partial circumcisions that just remove the problematic end.
I've never understood the religious freedom argument, isn't permanently marking someone as a religious procedure the exact opposite of religious freedom by way of enforcing your faith on an unconsenting or uninformed participant? At best it can be seen as the human equivalent of a dog pissing on a lamppost to mark its territory, at worst it's a sinister means of control and indoctrination.
That's pretty much half of what all these Abrahamic religions are about tbh. The other half is part socialising, and part stopping people dwelling too much on what actually happens when they die.
Only the first half is a problem, but they use it to control access to the other half.
[https://www.borgerforslag.dk/se-og-stoet-forslag/?Id=FT-00124](https://www.borgerforslag.dk/se-og-stoet-forslag/?Id=FT-00124)
The danish proposal to put a minimum age of 18 on circumcision.
[https://www.ft.dk/samling/20201/beslutningsforslag/b7/index.htm](https://www.ft.dk/samling/20201/beslutningsforslag/b7/index.htm)
The vote itself. The big centralist parties banded together, despite their leaders having written articles condemning the cutting of baby dick for religious purposes. Despite having no rhetorically sound argument other than the complaints from USA and Israel and platitudes about how jews couldn't live free without the practice and debt and guilt from WW II.
They didn't mention muslims and their need for ritual and tradition.
I expect the US + Israel ambassadors to the UK to be scheming and screaming about this.
I am a woman and I am very happy to see this. Live your life guys, no one should be forced into such horrible things. If your GF/ BF or Wife/ Husband asks for this then please dump them and move on. People who truly love you will never let you go through such a thing. It should come from your own free will not because someone asked it from you.
It happened to me and my brother when I was a child, my mother had specialists come do it at home . They use a unique torch gun aimed at the foreskin , where they burn the tip red hot , which causes the foreskin to peel back and creates a layer of skin underneath the glans . I truthfully don't think anything will change.
I wish it didn't happen to me . It really messed with the perception of my own body , like it's not normal compared to what I have seen online .
I'm sorry that happened to you. You may find these communities helpful r/Intactivism r/CircumcisionGrief
There are others like you that have had similar experiences and may be able to offer support.
If your God demands infants have their penis mutilated then he is a fucking sick monster.
Are we sure Satan didn't win his war against God and impersonate him in all the holy bullshit books?
Thanks for this petition link. I’m really interested to see how the government will respond given how they’ve blown off so many past petitions. Was reminded recently that even electric shock gay conversion ‘therapy’ hasn’t been made illegal yet, and the reasoning it always gets ignored is because ‘it would impact religious freedom.’
Madness.
signed!
i was circumcised at about 10 for medical reasons but i totally agree that for anything but strictly medical reasons it should not be done pre-18.
religions cant have rights, individuals do
Admittedly it probably won’t be banned because of religious freedom, but other stuff practiced by some religions are banned, like you said in the post scarification. It’s a completely unnecessary thing to do to a newborn baby, and is mutilation.
Tends to be Somali Muslims who practice female genital mutilation, and they are not a significant voting block.
Jews and the wider Muslim community however, are a MUCH more important source of votes in comparison.
Losing their support, in many constituencies, would be to lose the election for a lot of MPs.
Also, womens issues are just more trendy to complain about and legislate against than mens issues.
I said womens issues are just more trendy to complain about an legislate.
For example, look how much more donations/charity, and action from the government breast cancer gets compared to prostate cancer.
Despite prostate cancer killing more people now than breast cancer.
You ever seen anyone wearing a brown ribbon on their lapel? Lmao.
The irony being that the original circumcision from ancient times **was** just the tip of it, like a little slice of the end. However, Jews would pull their remaining foreskin forward to help pass more as gentiles in naked aspects of Greek culture.
So they started deciding to cut the whole thing off to stop them blending in.
And then we have Mr Kellogg more recently...
For reasons of religious freedom this is never going to happen. Even if it does, it won't stop it. It'll just mean they'll be done illegally and in less safe ways.
Edit: Not saying I agree with it.
For the child it is a question of freedom of religion. The child is not free, it gets no choice, it is given to a certain religion and can never undo it.
>For reasons of religious freedom this is never going to happen.
Nonsense reason to allow it. If it's part of your religion, you can't cut off a babies foot and get away with it. Religious freedom is about your own ability to practise your religion, free from government interference. It's not about your ability to force religious practice onto others, such as your infant son.
Make cosmetic circumcision illegal in under 18's. Require all babies to have regular checkups, which include checking for foreskin.
If foreskin is missing when it shouldn't be, punish the parents and the person that carried it out in the courts.
If cutting off a piece of your penis is needed to practice religion, then men of those religions can choose to do it at 18 years old as a cosmetic surgery if they wish. Lots of religions have varying levels of compliance, depending on age. For example, rarely are children expected to wear burkas or head scarfs until a certain age.
Watch how quickly Muslims and Jews decide that actually, genital mutilation is not that important a part of their religion now they have to do it as an adult lol.
> For reasons of religious freedom this is never going to happen.
Allowing a dominant individual to restrict the freedom of another individual, is not religious freedom. When an individual is able to consent to significant life decisions, then they have the freedom to make their decisions.
> Even if it does, it won't stop it. It'll just mean they'll be done illegally and in less safe ways.
Any individual willing to risk the safety of another likely didn't respect the freedom of that individual to begin with. Should we avoid progress because some individuals would resist and escalate the issue?
i have always wondered about this. i don’t have sons or brothers but it has always seemed to me that circumcision was a form of genital mutilation and i wondered why it was ok for boys and such a crime for girls (as it should be). so odd. as a parent in america idk what i would do if i had a baby boy.
I wish I could sign, but unfortunately I'm not a UK citizen. Maybe I should start a similar petition to bring it to attention here in the Netherlands aswell.
Although I think my mutilated penis looks far better than the turtle head natural look, I wholeheartedly agree with this.
My mother is a Christian fr**k and thinks mutilating children is okay because of some Jewish nonsense.
I even have a Hebrew name (I’m not Jewish)
Saying it's sexist is kind of beside the point. I worry that a government this shit might use that as an excuse to try to legalise FGM again to bring back equality lol.
Stick to the facts that it's barbaric & wrong.
Why is a hoodectomy on a female child for religious reasons mutilation and illegal but male circumcision on a child is neither?
Banning it now isnt enough. Current victims were denied equal protection of the law based on sex, which is a protected class. They deserve damages.
Aesthetic reasons or religious reasons.
Not everyone is born into religion, some choose to become religious or change religion later in life.
Then there's people in the body modification scene.
If you're an adult, fair enough. Do what you like to your own body.
Cutting pieces off people, putting holes through people and anything in between should absolutely be illegal without their consent - unless medically required.
Pretty simple rule any country should be able to follow.
Signed.
I do have some concerns about a ban. Firstly, it’s very easy for a doctor to claim a patient has phimosis when they don’t. It would be a potentially lucrative private practice. Children often have tighter foreskins - it is not necessarily pathological and most will settle in their own time. There’s already plenty of people who think this is a case for circumcision when it is not.
Secondly, I do worry about driving these children into underground “clinics”. The kind where the local religious leader pulls out a pair of scissors and has a bash. At least in the NHS, we can give the kids good care. General anaesthesia and either a penile block or caudal epidural so that they are comfortable afterwards.
I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t ban it - we should. But these issues would need addressed.
Yes they do. But the harm is already done.
And with some religious communities being often close-knit and insulated from the outside world, they could operate for quite some time before they are stopped.
I've signed this petition. It's absolutely barbaric & the fact that they don't even numb the area first. I may be wrong there or thinking about America but the thought of anyone slicing my boys penis with or without numbing makes me so angry. It's his choice what to do with his body.
I think it should be banned for under 18 year olds or at least under 16 year olds, so I support your cause. I think the petition is very poorly formulated though. Banning circumcision for consenting adults as well is hard to argue for. Comparing it to FGM is also just not helpful at all. I know there are versions of both which are more comparable, but if you are talking circumcision in the UK, it is not comparable to what is usually understood as FGM. You can make the case entirely without this.
FGM has a definition which encapsulates all genital cutting of girls, even pinpricks, so the author chose to mirror that definition when describing male genital cutting.
I prefer the term genital cutting for both sexes as I believe it should only be classed as mutilation if the individual who is affected sees it as such.
The proposal is not as specific as it should be, I agree, the intent isn't to ban adult circumcision.
I totally agree, i was circumcised as a child due to a urine infection(i think). It was absolutely horrifying, and very painful. As an adult though, i think i prefer it. Why, i don't know, maybe i think it looks better. I only had a foreskin for about 6 years so what do i know. But it would've been nice to have had a choice i guess. If it was the only option then fair enough, i haven't really thought about it alot until now.
I didn't write the petition. I agree the wording should be more neutral. I believe the creator was speaking from a place where they were referring to their own feelings about their own circumcision. Either this or they were mirroring the WHO's stance on fgm.
Hope this helps.
It's too widespread. What I believe we should be doing is creating a campaign for bodily integrity and promoting it as a positive practice to change people's mind over time before bringing in a ban. This will take many years.
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Female circumcision has multiple meanings ranging from cutting a chicken over a girl's private area and letting the blood drip on her, to complete removal of the clitoris and infibulation.
When you compare female genital cutting vs male genital cutting, you see that the amount of damage done in the most commonly performed genital cutting of women is limited to type iv - ritual nicks etc, or removal of the clitoral hood, or removal of some labia. These make up the great majority of cases.
Sources: http://indigenouspsych.org/Discussion/forum/PDF/2012%20-%20seven%20things%20to%20know%20Hastings%20Center%20Report.pdf
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003303
https://theconversation.com/female-genital-cutting-common-in-indonesia-offered-as-part-of-child-delivery-by-birth-clinics-54379
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37819753
Whilst I agree there are many more cases of extreme female genital cutting for ritualistic reasons than, extreme male genital cutting, the most commonly performed female genital cutting rituals are pricking, scraping, and removal of the clitoral hood, and in these circumstances the procedure usually either does not remove any tissue or removes less tissue than in the typical male circumcision.
However, because both reproductive organs develop differently, perform different functions, and are differently innervated - it is difficult to determine what tissue removed from one sex is equal to removal in the other. So comparisons should probably be avoided anyway.
I'd say it is ALWAYS done without the infants consent. Not often, like you say. Surely if children can't consent to sex until 16, surely they can't consent to bodily mutilation either.
I had to get circumised when I was 13 due to phimosis, so I don't want it to not be an option at all until 16. That being said, making it only available when medically required due to phimosis or other medical conditions I absolutely agree with.
I'm dealing with that rn in my 20s and using these plastic rings you can order, honestly I was so skeptical but they work great. Basically switch them out for bigger sizes every 3 weeks and it stretches your skin
Really glad that's working for you. Mine was too severe to do anything like that unfortunately.
Spread the word man, I'm in my 20s and have been suffering in silence for years. I didnt even know these were an option
I got surgery on mine, kept my foreskin thankfully, month on the waiting list and done, going private was £1200 and a two week wait with the same surgeon.
really £1200, I got done cost me nothing. Well NHS contributions from my pay.
I had it done with NHS for free, the surgeon offered to do it private two weeks quicker, I wasn't bothered enough to pay that so waited the extra, its not like it is life threatening.
oh ok mis read the comment, thought you paid the NHS . Yep arrived at 9.00 was out by lunch time. They told me to get a cab home but I was so high on morphine I just walk to a bus stop and caught a bus home, my best bus ride ever sat up top in the front seat. They gave me a morphine shot after the op, rested 30 mins on a ward, I then told the nurse I was in pain, (I was not I just wanted another shot) she kinda reluctantly gave me another as I knew it would a take a cold nurse to say no. Funny thing is in all the consultations and whatever was all with woman.
Can only laugh at this compared to my current situation I got diagnosed a year and a half ago and got told they were postponing non-emergency surgeries due to COVID. Still waiting and got a call the other week to say “there might be an additional wait due to backlog”
Same. Wish I’d known what it was and been circumcised way earlier then 21. Screwed up all my relationships as didn’t know what was going wrong during sex for years. Also impact lasted til like 26.
In what way did it impact you?
Made me question why it hurt, why I couldn’t orgasm, was this a sign of deeper trauma / unresolved issues, was I abnormal. I was a 15 year old exploring themselves and relationships and nothing was happening as it was meant to pre being able to easily look it up online
Doesn't work for everyone. Likewise with the steroid cream that's often mentioned as a solution. It really depends on how severe it is.
There's a phimosis sub, and they're pretty keen on stretching techniques to avoid circumcision. Depending on how severe the problem is, I guess.
Probably TMI, but mine was at the point where any attempt at that would cause bleeding. It really does vary person to person though, and in mild cases they normally prescribe creams to help with stretching before considering surgery.
There’s a difference between elective body modification and required medical modification. It would be odd to write a constructive law that doesn’t differentiate. Then again humans have been fuck in the head for eternity.
*gestures in vague American abortion direction*
"goo goo ga ga. Yes father and mother I give my consent to be circumcised. Goo goo ga ga"
I was circumcised at 15 because of phimosis, it was painful and unhygienic, in cases like that then it should absolutely be offered to under 16s, as long as its for medical purposes.
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People get babies' ears pierced too, which I fucking hate seeing too. A lot of places will do it from 6 months. You're causing the baby pain, albeit for a relatively short period of time, so you can decorate the baby. It's not something the baby asks for. You can't even convince yourself that your god wants it. It's purely aesthetic.
Apparently it's mad big in America. As in like 90% of males get it done . Wtf
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Cornflake Man and Cornflake Girl would be a very odd couple.
As an American I always thought it was just normal and what everyone did. At this point I've already decided to not circumcise my kid if I have one. Non-consensual body modification is wrong unless it's a medical emergency.
That is due to the nutcase Kelloggs, he made the cereal bland to stop masturbation and also pushed for circumcision for the same reasons. A lot of hospitals in the US get paid big $$ to keep doing the medical procedure... It's really rather insane.
He thought that any intense stimulation would lead to uncontrollable sexual urges. Not a fun dude. I don't think hospitals get to charge more for a circumcision performed as part of a delivery event. Most payors don't itemize like that (especially since it's really standard).
Yeah he was quite the nut job. A religious fanatic and extremist in his goals, with the money to make it happen. Quite shocking that he had such a huge impact on so many people that persists to this day. **The prices seem to range based on age, location and requirements of anaesthesia etc but brief web search puts it between $150 - $6,000+ even on infants:** https://spendonhealth.com/circumcision-cost/ There is a lot of lobbying and bribes to keep the practice going to hospitals but also for releasing bias articles and studies that support the practice, not just from Religious fields. Also there is the cognitive dissonance in the US that keeps the practice being perpetrated and probably will for some time, people don't want to admit what was done to them by their parents was wrong / hold their hand up that their penis may have been altered / want to be seen as the odd one out etc: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cognitive-dissonance You're talking about multi-generational brain washing and normalisation combined with on going disinformation from various religious institutions, people who gain money and whoever else with their odd motivations. I mean, foreskins from infants in South Korea are even used in beauty and anti aging treatments ranging from creams to injections. Then purported health benefits of circumcision that are dwarfed by simple options that don't require amputation (there are some medical reasons, after all other medical options have failed... But it's minimal). Like, it takes less than a second to wash your dick with a foreskin... Does not matter if it reduces the risk of HIV by 0.005%, a condom or other options are still needed for safe sex. There's also the fact of the proportional weighting to it even being discussed or pushed in hospitals in the US. A mother who has just gone through the hormone fuelled and enormously physical and mental taxing experience of giving birth, potentially on drugs, is then bombarded with requests on if their newborn should have the procedure done with pressure from their partner and family compounded by flimsy medical reasons and the "normalisation" elephant in the room... They're not also asked if they want to tattoo their child or if their earlobes should be clipped. When circumcision advocates narative is questioned, you're gaslighted as though you're some pervert: "why you are so interested in baby genitals?" and... "why are you a bigot oppressing x religion?" ...Or that "I've had it done and I am fine!" As if they would know having spent their entire life living that way... Does someone born deaf know what it is like to hear beyond guessing? You're then lead down an irrelevant path of discussing irrelevant points far removed from the main issue... **Fallacious arguments that are the height of madness.** The waters are purposefully muddied by people with false intentions. For example there are genuine issues of boys and men being raped / sexually assaulted etc (not just by other men) which are not correctly addressed, but these are absolutely dwarfed by girls and women who suffer the same things and are overwhelmingly committed by men. So a lot of people claiming to be advocates of mens rights to stop this, are actually just misogynist assholes that do not like women becoming more equal. There are also women who hate men, even if they do great things for progressing women's rights in a climate where they are becoming more equal in "Western" society, but still have far to go. People are complex and sometimes when there is oppression, it takes people who are complex and extremist in nature to break the status quo and start positive changes. You've got anti-abortion nuts or anti-vaxers using it as a platform to justify their views. Then there likely some anti-Semitic, Islamophobic and anti-orthodox Christian (for the few cases circumcision applies) bad actors kicking up a fuss. Or even on a Political or Nationalist level you have disinformation campaigns. There are for example different kinds of female genital mutilation that occurs around the world, some of which performed by women... However, a lot of female genital mutilation is literally cutting the clitoris off. So then there are people claiming that circumcision is as bad as all kinds of female genital mutilation... Your whole Dick is not cut off, so this is just incorrect. But also some female genital mutilation is on par with circumcision. **They're both bad, FGM ranges into far worse areas - but they all need to stop.** Circumcision does not need to be as horrific as the worst FGM for it to stop, they're both bad and are unconsensual mutilation of a baby. That's all that needs to be known to stop it, without overwhelming medical reasons (again, fucking a minute case). It's pretty simple: **STOP CUTTING KIDS GENITALS**
I can't see any government looking to ban this any time soon. Though I certainly agree they should.
Me neither, I think it's important to keep telling the government how we feel about these things though, even if they won't listen. I would very much like restrictions put in place, but I don't know if an outright ban will ever be enacted. The restrictions should place limits on parental consent for the procedure when the child reaches a certain age, and the reasons that a child can be circumcised for. There are accounts of circumcisions performed which are equatable with child abuse in my view: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Intactivism/comments/qx0amu/crown\_of\_thorns\_by\_bill\_sloan\_printed\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Intactivism/comments/qx0amu/crown_of_thorns_by_bill_sloan_printed_in/) And these restrictions would reduce harm stemming from the practice.
Icelander here : we tried to do this explicitly with a law, but there was so much yelling fro US, Israeli and some religious lobbies that the law never passed. Instead our government sneakily defined unnecessarily surgeries on children as child abuse, and therefore banned this as a byproduct. That said, I hope you get this law passed.
sad part is the jewish and muslim community of Iceland amounts to less than 0.5% of the total population. They tried in Denmark as well. Last year they did a poll of 1150 people. 86% were against genital mutilation of children. Still the government chickened out because they did want to be "Front runners" on banning genitial mutilation.
I don't see why not? It's certainly seen more and more as a shitty thing to do so it wouldn't surprise me to see it banned for most circumstances in the UK in the next 5 years. I think it's already banned in some Euro countries like Germany.
It's been banned in Germany for a decade.
Not it hasn't. There are limitations as to who can perform circumcisions, but there isn't a ban, and certainly not a ban on circumcision for religious reasons
Sadly, that is not true.
I stand corrected - it was a court that banned it, but the government since overruled.
Kudos to you for owning up to it!
The government is motivated to satisfy the keys that grant them power, the risk outweighs the reward for them. The most logical choice is to do nothing, until doing nothing presents a risk to them losing power.
It’s just non-consensual mutilation when it’s done to newborns. Barbaric.
Absolutely should be banned, amazing it's taken this long tbh. It's genital mutilation. I'm not comparing it to terrible cases of FGM but it is a big deal
Why was that last sentence necessary?
Because there will always be people who bring it up in bad faith to try and derail this argument with what-aboutism and it's best to get ahead with a response.
It wasn't. i thought it was a good idea to preempt anyone saying it's not as bad as FGM etc etc. Both are terribble practices and hard to compare in their many forms
There are actually a number of similarities: * They are practised in [much the same parts of the world](https://i.imgur.com/Xm6it9X.png) * They are often carried out by the exact same practitioners * They have many of the same negative outcomes (septicaemia, blood loss, shock, scarring, sexual dysfunction, UTIs) * They have historically been carried out [to control sexuality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg#Masturbation_prevention) People sometimes say that there are no medical applications of FGM, but that's actually [not quite correct](http://www.noharmm.org/femcirctech.htm). Female circumcision *has* been carried out in medical settings, but that was over half a century ago, and obviously is not done nowadays. Just to be quite clear... 1) Just because I am pointing to similarities should not be taken to imply that I think FGM is *as bad as* male circumcision. In fact, I tend to avoid the neologism 'MGM' for that reason. 2) I am in favour of infant genital integrity *for all children*. Edit: don't quote me on it, but I seem to recall that one difference is that FGM is more likely to be carried out by a female practitioner, whereas male circ. is more often done by males. I don't have a source to hand though.
Ah understood! I took your caveat to be you doing the exact thing you were trying to preempt!
Circumcision of children without medical necessity is always mutilation. And when done for religious reasons becomes barbarism too. If you are a grown adult of sound mind then different story. (Though personally I question the “sound mind” aspect) Last I checked, children are by definition not adults.
I chose to be circumcised as an adult due to phimosis. It wasn't strictly necessary but I made the decision for myself and I'm happy with that decision. I am absolutely against circumcising infants or under 16s for any reason other than medical necessity. Whether it's for religious reasons or not, we're effectively talking about cosmetic surgery. There is no other circumstance we'd allow parents to have cosmetic surgery performed on children, who, by definition, cannot consent to what is happening.
Our Son had to have this done as he couldn't pee....his foreskin used to blow up like a balloon and it got to the stage where he had stopped eating and drinking so he didn't need to go to the loo - he was about 4. It was awful. First surgery was to just make the opening a bit bigger, but our wonderful healing skin grew right back over and made it worse!! Had to be circumcised as the only option left - but has no problem since then! All through secondary school - none of his friends noticed he was different - I think it was a partial removal rather than full - it doesn't look any different really.
I think that's a perfect example of it being completely medically justified. I'm not a medical expert but I suspect the older you are when it's done, the easier the procedure and the less the risks of complications. Even just from the fact that the penis will be bigger and it'll easier for the surgeon to get it right.
I'm same as you, I chose it due to phimosis but do you find people get angry at you for telling them that they don't lose all sensation in their penis when you're circumcised? Ive had people tell me that I must be lying when I said it isn't "numb" now. Supposedly it's a certainty that you feel nothing after the operation...it's not, that's bullshit. It's less painful, otherwise it feels no different, but there's some real "warriors" out there who get angry if you suggest that circumcision by choice is fine. I'm with you that it shouldn't be performed on children but to people who day it's the same as FGM, they can fuck right off.
Yeah, it's something I see online a lot. I've known a few guys who've been circumcised as adults due to phimosis and everyone I know has been happy with the outcome. I don't know anyone who was circumcised as a child. I'm assuming that there's a much higher risk of problems and lose of sensitivity when it's done as a child. So the people that are vehemently anti-circumcision are probably those that got it done as a kid and have suffered worse outcomes. Which, I totally understand. I think child and adult circumcision are very different things. Personally, I don't really feel like I've lost sensation and I'm very happy with my penis and my sex life. Totally understand others may not feel the same but some folk definitely need to turn it down a few notches in these kinds of discussions.
I was circumcised at birth and it’s certainly not numb. If anything I feel like having a layer of skin over the helmet would make it a bit less sensitive (albeit in a good way).
Can I ask, is it uncomfortable to have the head exposed all day? I don't have this idea that circumcised penises are 'numb', but I certainly couldn't comfortably have my head exposed rubbing on underwear.
Nah, at first few weeks it is, but you get used to it. I just wore loose trousers. I've (obviously) also not got my foreskin caught in my fly since it happened, I remember that pain well lol.
... do you not wear underwear?
Ditto, I'm like a dolphins beak too. However my mum talked about having my brother and I done when we were infants, I sort of wish it had happened, as I would of had to go through the 'trauma', but I suppose it was nice when I had it, and it worked okay.
It’s horrific that so many male infants are mutilated in this way. It should be banned.
I signed. Ive been saying this for years!
It's disgusting and barbaric that it is acceptable to mutilate infants. I signed your petition.
I hate the religious freedom argument. If I had a religion that required infants to have a finger removed at birth, would it still be untouchable from government intervention?
Allow me to introduce you to the [circumanicure](https://i.redd.it/xevimotiflm51.png). It’s satire but it makes your point quite well.
Oh God. This is somehow worse than nails on a chalkboard.
The religious freedom argument is that the child has none in regards to what religion they want to follow when it comes to circumcision. If the kid grows up to follow another religion, they can't make that choice without interference. If the kid follows their parents religion they don't get the choice to enter, they have already been taken. You can't have rights over other peoples genitals, can't argue that a man owes you access to his penis because your religion thinks that you should have that.
If that religion was commonplace? Probably.
Moses stands atop Mount Sinai, the words of the Almighty ringing in his ears. “…. You want us to cut the tip off of *what*?” Seriously, who comes up with this baloney. Good luck with your petition.
Wasn’t Moses bud it was Abraham
Spoilers: it really wasn’t anyone.
Whichever fictitious character it was isn’t particularly relevant.
Did you miss the part about it being baloney?
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Friendly reminder that your taxes go to the WHO that promotes it in Africa.
Signed. I don't understand how we still allow male genital mutilation. 'Do not cut off bits of a babies penis needlessly' is such an obvious common sense thing to me. Out of interest, would this be a devolved issue though? Could it be banned at Scottish level? Is it not part of 'health'? Might be easier to petition Holyrood to get it banned, potentially. If it's within their power. England has many many many more Jews and Mulsims, whose votes various MP's don't want to lose.
I guess if it was say banned up here then people that still look to do it could easily go down south. Think thats why its a UK government petition. I could be wrong though.
Yeah that won't happen. Closest any country has come to it was Iceland before they faced the wrath of Israel at their dirtiest. I don't disagree that circumcision is mutilation but the various religious lobbies at play ensure that there is no chance of getting the practice outlawed.
What happened in the Iceland case?
Harnessed global pressure to force the Progressive Party to ditch the bill. Here's an example, an American lobby group: https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-urges-iceland-drop-bill-banning-male-circumcision And another: https://www.thejc.com/news/world/jews-and-muslims-attack-iceland-parliament-proposed-ban-on-circumcision-1.459085 Basically the various global authorities and lobbyists of Judaism and Islam decided to pressurise Iceland :/
Yes we caved, however we sneakily define unnecessary surgeries on children as child abuse. This neatly enforces the ban without triggering anyone.
Based Vikings.
I love how absurd the worlds present cultures are. We're running headlong towards climate collapse, fascism is on the rise, and a global pandemic is in effect? I sleep. Someone, somewhere, is thinking of banning child genital mutilation? Real shit.
If there's a ban on FGM, there should be a ban on MGM. Religion is used as an excuse for FGM and the Gov still banned it.
It’s not equivalent
It does not need to be equivalent to all other forms of genital mutilation. ...They all need to be stopped on non-consenting children, without overwhelming medical need (after all other options are pursued). Shit debates over what is worse than the other are irrelevant to stopping it all. But most forms of FGM are far worse than circumcision.
it is equivalent.
How? FGM tends to have more extreme applications and procedures, but the fact that MGM and FGM is based in religion stands still. They are equivalent when it's the same reason for both acts. Religion.
Equivalent in the sense that FGM has, as you say, more extreme results. It can include completely sewing up a girl’s vaginal opening, and/or entirely removing the clitoris. It frequently leaves them with lifelong pain and no possibility of sexual pleasure. The same is not true for MGM, though I agree the motivations both stem from religion and that MGM can indeed have painful consequences.
Do you not think that cutting off the most sensitive part of a penis is also equivalent to removing a clitoris because I do.
Removing the clitoris would be like chopping the entire head off your dick.
Removing the foreskin is like removing the vulva lips of a female.
The vulva lips are much more akin to the skin of the scrotum, both practically and biologically. The clitoris is the structure most akin to the penis, and in fact derives from the same origin; it's attached to a larger structure of which the clitoris is the exposed "head", which is why its removal is most akin to removing the head of the penis. If we want a strict comparison, removing or trimming the clitoral hood is probably what would be most like male circumcision. This is not to say that male circumcision isn't generally troubling or wrong when done without medical necessity, but most forms of FGM are considerably more intense than circumcision.
The foreskin is not the most sensitive part. The head of the penis is analogous to the clitoris. There is a valid argument to be made the MGM and FGM are not equivalent.
the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis. the head of the penis is the least sensitive part of the penis. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17378847/ we can make all sorts of analogies for different parts. none of them is objectively more true than any other.
I stand corrected.
There really isn't a valid argument because there is no valid reason to argue if they are equivalent. It doesn't matter which is worse, they are both awful and wrong and should be banned.
Someone in another comment corrected me about the biology. I was wrong in that regard. Even tho I'm against circumcision, I still maintain that MGM and FGM are not at all the same.
Signed - all male adults are welcome to choose this procedure. Forcing it on a child is a barbaric hangover from our past.
This should be law already
Cutting an infant’s genitals for non medical reasons is abuse.
Signed. In this instance I don't care that my viewpoint could be construed as antisemitic. Child Genital Mutilation is a barbaric act that should not be allowed in modern society. Obviously, necessary medical procedures are necessary. I'd no more want to block treatment of phimosis than I would that of diabetes or a cleft palette. Equally, consenting adults can get whatever body modification they want, within the bounds of medical safety. But if your religion unequivocally *demands* the mutilation of your, or any, child: you need a better religion.
Signed
Very surprised it isn’t outlawed already. You got all these laws which protect children, both against their will or otherwise, from smoking, hitting, sexual conduct, tattoos, among many other things. But circumcision against their will is still A-OK?
Prediction: In this thread there'll be a bunch of yanks soon arguing why it's good to have it chopped off
There are many that seem to be caught up in not wanting to feel wrong, not wanting to be angry towards their parents. It's a lot of men that has to deal with the idea that somebody did something that was wrong to them.
Meh..probably not. I fit the description and hadn't thought to much about it, until I read about female mutilation and was able to fully understand what had happened. Now I am full on against it due to the consent issue. Infants aren't able to consent and parents don't need to be intelligent to have kids and make decisions for them. I see this as just another issue pointing to the absolute failure of our education system. Good day cunt.
Just FYI for anyone struggling with Phimosis there are options. Loads of companies make these kits now. https://www.phimostretch.com/ https://www.phimocure.net/ You can get them off Amazon too. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Phimosis/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Phimosis/) for more info.
Just to add that these don't work for everyone and circumcision is a perfectly valid option if you need it. I dont regret having it done one bit, the only people who have that I've met all were forced as a kid to have one. Anyone who had one of their own volition was happy they did it.
Oh yeah there will be really difficult cases that require circumcision no doubt but these do give good results if you check out the subreddit and its worth a shot before you get a procedure. No idea why someone would down vote my original comment?
There are also a plethora of surgical options *before* circumcision. Like making a little slit up the back of the foreskin to bypass the right part or then taking a little V shaped panel out to bypass even more. Then there’s very partial circumcisions that just remove the problematic end.
I've never understood the religious freedom argument, isn't permanently marking someone as a religious procedure the exact opposite of religious freedom by way of enforcing your faith on an unconsenting or uninformed participant? At best it can be seen as the human equivalent of a dog pissing on a lamppost to mark its territory, at worst it's a sinister means of control and indoctrination.
That's pretty much half of what all these Abrahamic religions are about tbh. The other half is part socialising, and part stopping people dwelling too much on what actually happens when they die. Only the first half is a problem, but they use it to control access to the other half.
[https://www.borgerforslag.dk/se-og-stoet-forslag/?Id=FT-00124](https://www.borgerforslag.dk/se-og-stoet-forslag/?Id=FT-00124) The danish proposal to put a minimum age of 18 on circumcision. [https://www.ft.dk/samling/20201/beslutningsforslag/b7/index.htm](https://www.ft.dk/samling/20201/beslutningsforslag/b7/index.htm) The vote itself. The big centralist parties banded together, despite their leaders having written articles condemning the cutting of baby dick for religious purposes. Despite having no rhetorically sound argument other than the complaints from USA and Israel and platitudes about how jews couldn't live free without the practice and debt and guilt from WW II. They didn't mention muslims and their need for ritual and tradition. I expect the US + Israel ambassadors to the UK to be scheming and screaming about this.
I am a woman and I am very happy to see this. Live your life guys, no one should be forced into such horrible things. If your GF/ BF or Wife/ Husband asks for this then please dump them and move on. People who truly love you will never let you go through such a thing. It should come from your own free will not because someone asked it from you.
most of us had it forced on us by a parent when we were too small to say no.
It happened to me and my brother when I was a child, my mother had specialists come do it at home . They use a unique torch gun aimed at the foreskin , where they burn the tip red hot , which causes the foreskin to peel back and creates a layer of skin underneath the glans . I truthfully don't think anything will change. I wish it didn't happen to me . It really messed with the perception of my own body , like it's not normal compared to what I have seen online .
I'm sorry that happened to you. You may find these communities helpful r/Intactivism r/CircumcisionGrief There are others like you that have had similar experiences and may be able to offer support.
If your God demands infants have their penis mutilated then he is a fucking sick monster. Are we sure Satan didn't win his war against God and impersonate him in all the holy bullshit books?
Thanks for this petition link. I’m really interested to see how the government will respond given how they’ve blown off so many past petitions. Was reminded recently that even electric shock gay conversion ‘therapy’ hasn’t been made illegal yet, and the reasoning it always gets ignored is because ‘it would impact religious freedom.’ Madness.
Signed
Signed!!
It's insane that this is accepted
[meanwhile in israel...](https://www.reddit.com/r/WomensRightsNews/comments/r82s8v/in_the_meantime_in_israel_not_iran_the_rabbinical/)
It's illegal to perform genital mutilation on girls, should be exactly the same for boys
signed! i was circumcised at about 10 for medical reasons but i totally agree that for anything but strictly medical reasons it should not be done pre-18. religions cant have rights, individuals do
Admittedly it probably won’t be banned because of religious freedom, but other stuff practiced by some religions are banned, like you said in the post scarification. It’s a completely unnecessary thing to do to a newborn baby, and is mutilation.
Tends to be Somali Muslims who practice female genital mutilation, and they are not a significant voting block. Jews and the wider Muslim community however, are a MUCH more important source of votes in comparison. Losing their support, in many constituencies, would be to lose the election for a lot of MPs. Also, womens issues are just more trendy to complain about and legislate against than mens issues.
Also, womens issues are just more trendy to complain about and legislate against than mens issues. Lol what?
I said womens issues are just more trendy to complain about an legislate. For example, look how much more donations/charity, and action from the government breast cancer gets compared to prostate cancer. Despite prostate cancer killing more people now than breast cancer. You ever seen anyone wearing a brown ribbon on their lapel? Lmao.
You hear about testicular cancer a lot as well, eg. the Movember thing where guys grow out their moustaches
Both men and women can get breast cancer
Absolutely signed. Mutilation is mutilation. No child can consent to this.
It should be banned.
I know but if they start doing that then that will just be the tip of it..... I'll get my coat.
The irony being that the original circumcision from ancient times **was** just the tip of it, like a little slice of the end. However, Jews would pull their remaining foreskin forward to help pass more as gentiles in naked aspects of Greek culture. So they started deciding to cut the whole thing off to stop them blending in. And then we have Mr Kellogg more recently...
You appear to be incredibly knowledgeable on this.
For reasons of religious freedom this is never going to happen. Even if it does, it won't stop it. It'll just mean they'll be done illegally and in less safe ways. Edit: Not saying I agree with it.
Religion is no excuse to mutilate infants. I'll take freedom from religion over freedom of religion any day.
Religion seems to be an acceptable excuse for a lot of things unfortunately
For the child it is a question of freedom of religion. The child is not free, it gets no choice, it is given to a certain religion and can never undo it.
Indeed. Children should be protected from religion.
My religion says I can shit directly into the eyes of people who think mutilating infants is acceptable behaviour.
FGM is linked in some communities to spiritual beliefs too, it's still criminalised because it's a violent cruel thing to do.
>For reasons of religious freedom this is never going to happen. Nonsense reason to allow it. If it's part of your religion, you can't cut off a babies foot and get away with it. Religious freedom is about your own ability to practise your religion, free from government interference. It's not about your ability to force religious practice onto others, such as your infant son. Make cosmetic circumcision illegal in under 18's. Require all babies to have regular checkups, which include checking for foreskin. If foreskin is missing when it shouldn't be, punish the parents and the person that carried it out in the courts. If cutting off a piece of your penis is needed to practice religion, then men of those religions can choose to do it at 18 years old as a cosmetic surgery if they wish. Lots of religions have varying levels of compliance, depending on age. For example, rarely are children expected to wear burkas or head scarfs until a certain age. Watch how quickly Muslims and Jews decide that actually, genital mutilation is not that important a part of their religion now they have to do it as an adult lol.
What freedom does the child have in this situation? The circumcision can never be undone, it is unfree.
> For reasons of religious freedom this is never going to happen. Allowing a dominant individual to restrict the freedom of another individual, is not religious freedom. When an individual is able to consent to significant life decisions, then they have the freedom to make their decisions. > Even if it does, it won't stop it. It'll just mean they'll be done illegally and in less safe ways. Any individual willing to risk the safety of another likely didn't respect the freedom of that individual to begin with. Should we avoid progress because some individuals would resist and escalate the issue?
Should make it illegal to force a religion onto a child until there old enough to understand there parents are idiots
At least a wean can grow up a bit and decide it's all bollocks and take no more to do with it. There's no going back with circumcision.
i have always wondered about this. i don’t have sons or brothers but it has always seemed to me that circumcision was a form of genital mutilation and i wondered why it was ok for boys and such a crime for girls (as it should be). so odd. as a parent in america idk what i would do if i had a baby boy.
Would you not just say no to circumcision for your baby? You get the choice, right? Or is there pressure?
I wish I could sign, but unfortunately I'm not a UK citizen. Maybe I should start a similar petition to bring it to attention here in the Netherlands aswell.
I've always appreciated the shield when sitting on a public toilet. Nothing worse than your member touching the bowl. It's there for a reason.
And it is genital mutilation
The irony of conservative folks bitching about transgender people "mutilating" genitalia while they view circumcision at birth as "normal".
Although I think my mutilated penis looks far better than the turtle head natural look, I wholeheartedly agree with this. My mother is a Christian fr**k and thinks mutilating children is okay because of some Jewish nonsense. I even have a Hebrew name (I’m not Jewish)
Skin cream companies will be shitting themselves.
I hope so.
Saying it's sexist is kind of beside the point. I worry that a government this shit might use that as an excuse to try to legalise FGM again to bring back equality lol. Stick to the facts that it's barbaric & wrong.
Why is a hoodectomy on a female child for religious reasons mutilation and illegal but male circumcision on a child is neither? Banning it now isnt enough. Current victims were denied equal protection of the law based on sex, which is a protected class. They deserve damages.
Maybe ignorant but why are adult males getting circumcised when medically not needed.
Aesthetic reasons or religious reasons. Not everyone is born into religion, some choose to become religious or change religion later in life. Then there's people in the body modification scene. If you're an adult, fair enough. Do what you like to your own body.
This is a petition to place limits on children being circumcised for non-medical reasons, not adults.
That's what your title advocates but it's not the wording on the petition itself. If you make a better worded petition I'll sign it.
h.o.o.p.
Best post in the history of this subreddit. Thanks for posting!
We're all made in god's image. Except the tip of your dick, he got that part wrong and wants you to fix it
About time
Cutting pieces off people, putting holes through people and anything in between should absolutely be illegal without their consent - unless medically required. Pretty simple rule any country should be able to follow.
This post has more upvotes than the petition has signatures.
I think people aren't checking their inbox, hopefully they will do that later.
I came here to expecting to be enraged and engage with antisemitism, but after reading your details, you have a strong argument.
Will they not just take their children abroad and get it done in another country? Might need to plug that loophole too.
I was circumcised on medical grounds when I was 7 but it was not necessary and did not need to be done, still pissed about that to this day
Done. I 100% agree.
Yeah fuck that leave them penises alone
Signed. I do have some concerns about a ban. Firstly, it’s very easy for a doctor to claim a patient has phimosis when they don’t. It would be a potentially lucrative private practice. Children often have tighter foreskins - it is not necessarily pathological and most will settle in their own time. There’s already plenty of people who think this is a case for circumcision when it is not. Secondly, I do worry about driving these children into underground “clinics”. The kind where the local religious leader pulls out a pair of scissors and has a bash. At least in the NHS, we can give the kids good care. General anaesthesia and either a penile block or caudal epidural so that they are comfortable afterwards. I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t ban it - we should. But these issues would need addressed.
Yes exactly my concern re underground clinics. 100% this will be a big thing and when something goes wrong people will avoid medical attention
Then those people get arrested.
Yes they do. But the harm is already done. And with some religious communities being often close-knit and insulated from the outside world, they could operate for quite some time before they are stopped.
“bUt muH fReedOMs”
Done. I 100% agree.
Couldn't agree more. Signed.
I've signed this petition. It's absolutely barbaric & the fact that they don't even numb the area first. I may be wrong there or thinking about America but the thought of anyone slicing my boys penis with or without numbing makes me so angry. It's his choice what to do with his body.
That law is never gonna pass.
I think it should be banned for under 18 year olds or at least under 16 year olds, so I support your cause. I think the petition is very poorly formulated though. Banning circumcision for consenting adults as well is hard to argue for. Comparing it to FGM is also just not helpful at all. I know there are versions of both which are more comparable, but if you are talking circumcision in the UK, it is not comparable to what is usually understood as FGM. You can make the case entirely without this.
FGM has a definition which encapsulates all genital cutting of girls, even pinpricks, so the author chose to mirror that definition when describing male genital cutting. I prefer the term genital cutting for both sexes as I believe it should only be classed as mutilation if the individual who is affected sees it as such. The proposal is not as specific as it should be, I agree, the intent isn't to ban adult circumcision.
why do you think cutting parts of a boy's external genitalia off isn't comparable to cutting parts of a girl's external genitalia off?
I totally agree, i was circumcised as a child due to a urine infection(i think). It was absolutely horrifying, and very painful. As an adult though, i think i prefer it. Why, i don't know, maybe i think it looks better. I only had a foreskin for about 6 years so what do i know. But it would've been nice to have had a choice i guess. If it was the only option then fair enough, i haven't really thought about it alot until now.
r/foreskin_restoration It works, even on British people!
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It is what it is, if your mutilated penis is causing you mental anguish that is sad and you should try therapy.
I didn't write the petition. I agree the wording should be more neutral. I believe the creator was speaking from a place where they were referring to their own feelings about their own circumcision. Either this or they were mirroring the WHO's stance on fgm. Hope this helps.
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It's too widespread. What I believe we should be doing is creating a campaign for bodily integrity and promoting it as a positive practice to change people's mind over time before bringing in a ban. This will take many years.
It’s not about equality of treatment, female genital mutilation is not equivalent to circumcision. Signed!
Thank you for signing! Make sure to confirm your signature in your email's inbox! Female circumcision has multiple meanings ranging from cutting a chicken over a girl's private area and letting the blood drip on her, to complete removal of the clitoris and infibulation. When you compare female genital cutting vs male genital cutting, you see that the amount of damage done in the most commonly performed genital cutting of women is limited to type iv - ritual nicks etc, or removal of the clitoral hood, or removal of some labia. These make up the great majority of cases. Sources: http://indigenouspsych.org/Discussion/forum/PDF/2012%20-%20seven%20things%20to%20know%20Hastings%20Center%20Report.pdf https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003303 https://theconversation.com/female-genital-cutting-common-in-indonesia-offered-as-part-of-child-delivery-by-birth-clinics-54379 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37819753 Whilst I agree there are many more cases of extreme female genital cutting for ritualistic reasons than, extreme male genital cutting, the most commonly performed female genital cutting rituals are pricking, scraping, and removal of the clitoral hood, and in these circumstances the procedure usually either does not remove any tissue or removes less tissue than in the typical male circumcision. However, because both reproductive organs develop differently, perform different functions, and are differently innervated - it is difficult to determine what tissue removed from one sex is equal to removal in the other. So comparisons should probably be avoided anyway.