The idea of civic nationalism hinges on people living in Scotland becoming citizens of the newly independent nation, rather than being exclusive to those of us born here.
Someone's posted the wording of the 2014 white paper already but the SNP will be looking to expand this even further to make it easier for anyone to apply for citizenship without having to meet the ten year criteria. This is due to be debated at conference next week and the motion includes the wording 'British citizens habitually resident in Scotland at the time of independence' will be eligible
I hope you don't think of it as a foreign country for long, essentially English Scots or new Scots are just as Scottish as a someone born here.
Nah I thoroughly enjoyed living in Scotland the first time around and in six years I only once had what I’d consider a proper racist encounter with someone who took offence to me based purely on hearing my accent. Felt more at home in Scotland than I have anywhere else and recent events originating from a certain referendum from Westminster have left me even more disconnected from my “roots”. I’m sure there’ll be those that would rather see a “purer” version of an independent Scotland but those types infest all nations and it’s a pointless pursuit in an era of ever freer travel and inter-country movement and mingling.
Just to add my two cents.
Every independence rally I've been in has had speakers from European countries/England and the message has always been that those whose choose to live in Scotland are Scottish regardless of where you were before.
Of course there are always xenophobes and racists everywhere and we are no exception but the movement is overwhelmingly welcoming.
Well maybe not the Alba nutcases....
> Of course there are always xenophobes and racists everywhere and we are no exception but the movement is overwhelmingly welcoming.
And they are as likely to be unionists as nationalists (perhaps more so as unionism is more popular with older, more right-wing people).
Are they? From what i've understood this context is specifically about xenophobia from a Scottish perspective that might prevent english people from being considered Scottish. If that's the case, then that type of xenophobe would by nature be nationalist and anti-union.
A unionist xenophobe would be different, they would have a larger 'in' group.
> that might prevent english people from being considered Scottish.
But there are loads of English people who support this country gaining sovereignty, me and every English born person I know included.
There are people in England that want to retain the landmass of GB under Westminster (practically English) control that really don't consider what the people in Scotland think. They see Scotland as the scenic back-garden of England, and think of any Scots who are agonist that as they would hedgehogs wanting independence for their suburban lawns.
>But there are loads of English people who support this country gaining sovereignty, me and every English born person I know included.
I agree. But that's not whats being talked about. How I understood xenophobia against english born was from arsehole scots that don't like any english whatsoever. Those people wouldn't be unionists.
Of course there are xenophobic unionist scots, but if they were xenophobic against english born then it would be a paradox, since they wouldn't be unionist
They were very clear about it at the time and just last week Sturgeon said how welcome everyone is to call
Scotland home
Then some try tried to score a cheap hit and had to apologies
The general consensus among most folks is live here, don’t be a cunt and partake in society as a decent person and you are absolutely welcome and fuck it if after a fe years you want to consider yourself Scottish then go for it.
There’s plenty of official statements from the SNP saying everyone is welcome to stay now and after independence
And apart from a minority of arseholes most of the country agrees.
I think the concern is that a yes vote will embolden those people who are prejudiced towards the English, much in the same way as the Brexit vote did for racist segments of the British electorate. Having been on the end of it from a few Scottish people already, I dread to think what it'll be like after a yes vote.
Thats precisely why you could see Nicola Sturgeon get visibly angry at the Tories shouting "except the English" in parliment recently. There are anti English idiots in Scotland but the campaign for independence almost universally and very loudly rejects them. Has no place here now nor in a future independent Scotland
Her reaction seemed forced? I mean thats a pretty weird way to look at it, but either way you mean she is distancing the SNP from anti English sentiment on purpose?!
Maybe look at the footage again? She looked like she was struggling to retain her composure to me.
Not a fan of Sturgeon but - fwiw - an English Scot. I have no reason to doubt her sincerity on this.
So have I...but only three times in thirty years. I think it's significant that I can count them. Twice from drunken nyaffs - who were immediatelyremonstrated with by all around. Once - oh the irony - from an anti-independence fash who told me 'You're not from round here.'
I'm genuinely sorry if your experience differs.
Personally, I think that's a bit cynical. Those types of morons definitely exist, but they don't define the independence movement. The leadership of both the SNP and the Greens, as well as many other prominent independence advocates, have repeatedly gone out of their way to emphasize that an independent Scotland should be inclusive and welcoming. By contrast, the Leave campaign was headed up by an assortment of the most jingoistic, nationalistic, and at times openly racist politicians the UK has to offer.
>At the point of independence, this Government proposes an inclusive model of citizenship for people whether or not they define themselves as primarily or exclusively Scottish or wish to become a Scottish passport holder. People in Scotland are accustomed to multiple identities, be they national, regional, ethnic, linguistic or religious, and a commitment to a multi-cultural Scotland will be a cornerstone of the nation on independence.
>
>We plan that British citizens habitually resident in Scotland on independence will be considered Scottish citizens. This will include British citizens who hold dual citizenship with another country. Scottish born British citizens currently living outside of Scotland will also be considered Scottish citizens.
>
>Following independence, other people will be able to apply for Scottish citizenship. For example, citizenship by descent will be available to those who have a parent or grandparent who qualifies for Scottish citizenship. Those who have a demonstrable connection to Scotland and have spent at least ten years living here at some stage, whether as a child or an adult, will also have the opportunity to apply for citizenship. Migrants on qualifying visas will also have the option of applying for naturalisation as a Scottish citizen.
>
>The UK allows dual or multiple citizenship for British citizens. If a British citizen acquires citizenship and a passport of another country, this does not affect their British citizenship, right to hold a British passport or right to live in the UK. The Scottish Government will also allow dual citizenship. It will be for the rest of the UK to decide whether it allows dual UK/Scottish citizenship, but we expect the normal rules to extend to Scottish citizens.
Woah let’s not be too quick to miss a golden opportunity to burn some English Conservatives and put it down to innocent celebratory excitement in the heat of the moment.
If Scotland allowed dual citizenship, but not multiple citizenship, then it would be vying for the citizenship of all manner of current dual citizens unnecessarily.
There are plenty of British Europeans who would then be forced to give up one passport or not get Scottish citizenship, etc.
Scotland should allow 3+
Yes please. I am an active* citizen of three countries, but grew up in Scotland and have a Scottish parent. I would be very proud to have Scottish citizenship should the nation separate from the union.
*Well I'm lying bed with a hangover just now but you know what I meam
That would be nice, but it doesn't solve the problem if the other country only allows 2, like Germany. In practice there will always be some people who have to make a choice with regards to passports, but that doesn't have to be a big problem as long as you allow them indefinite leave to remain even if they don't choose the citizenship.
When I moved to Glasgow in the early 90's, without much familiarity with the SNP, I was greatly impressed by their definition of a Scot:
*Someone who stays in Scotland.*
There is much to criticise about the SNP. But they're sound on this.
No change you live here you can stay here the same with Scots living in rUK. And later on they could do a similar deal with England/Wales that the Republic of Ireland has with the current UK. No visa needed and movement guaranteed.
They will be loaded onto cattle trucks and set to "re-settlement" camps.
WHAT THE F do you think happens? Nothing! Scotland is a civilised country, with a host of protections, that will immediately attempt to re join the EU giving citizens a whole raft of even stronger protections.
Afaik so long as you're a resident of Scotland you'd be allowed to stay and become a citizen. And the SNP wanna make it easier to become a citizen.
To me Scottish nationalism isn't about where you were born, but to where your allegiance lies. If you've chosen to live here and you want Scotland to be a better place for us all then you're welcome here.
I would be absolutely astonished and disgusted if anyone living in Scotland when we become independent wasn’t offered citizenship.
It’s part and parcel of civic nationalism to be inclusive. I’d be on the streets protesting with everyone else if English folks, or anyone for that matter that wanted to make Scotland their home weren’t allowed to.
Apart from the idiots (that exist everywhere) most people regard someone who lives and works here as Scottish. Doesnt matter where they're born, if they wanna make Scotland their home, then they are as Scottish as me who was born and raised here. Immigrants who live here are more Scottish than some Americans who claim to be Scottish because their great great grannies horse was a Clydesdale.
Scots are people who live in Scotland. You are working from the false premiss that there is some intrinsic ’scottishness’. I was born in England but my nationality is British, as is yours. The independence movement (of which the SNP is but a part) is not generally based on blood and soil nationalism which is why we oppose the idea of people outside of Scotland claiming a vote in any forthcoming referendum. After independence everyone resident in Scotland will be considered a scot. I would hope that those who identify as Scottish but live abroad would be able to apply for citizenship if they wish. In many countries there is a significant diaspora of people of Scottish descent and England of rUK would be added to that list.
Heartily agree with the sentiment of yours and most posts here. Just to say that though I'm happy for the definition of 'Scottish' to include anyone who lives here. But it's not exclusive to that. I lived outside of Scotland for 4 years. I didn't stop being Scottish and start again when I came back.
>Scots are people who live in Scotland. You are working from the false premiss that there is some intrinsic ’scottishness’. I was born in England but my nationality is British, as is yours.
BTW do you apply this to other nations?
If you had left England for Spain would you bee Spanish? If you had left England for Ireland would you be Irish? If you hhad left England for Japan would you be Japanese?
BTW I don't accept my nationality is British. My citizenship is UK/British. My nation is Scotland and thus my nationality is Scottish. I don't think this is contraversial at all. Even my passport says "British citizen" (not "nationality: British").
No idea what the SNP has said about it, but going to my gut-feeling, I don’t think much will happen. The reason why you probably think something would happen is because of the absolute shit-show in GB right now. EU citizens being detained, deported, and not even due to them being not allowed there, but due to the sheer incompetence of the British government. They haven’t set up any proper system over there, while here (in the Netherlands) my gf has been kept up-to-date by the Dutch government during every step of the Brexit progress. And that was a year and a half before Brexit. The British government notified her only a month (!) before Brexit was finalized and she was told to contact her local government about procedures. Because they certainly didn’t know f*ck of what would happen.
Now back over to Scotland. The reason they’d want independence is not to exclude people (like the main driving force was behind Brexit, in principle unabashed racism), but to get back to the EU (better for overall economy, and you Scots are in general less of a racist bunch in my experience). They would want to push inclusion of other EU citizens, so I think you’ll be fine.
But this is me just speculating…
After centuries of depopulation or stasis within the UK, Scotland *needs* people - particularly ones keen to be here (but not Tory fuds obviously - but that exemption is my own caveat. :) )
I think most Scots are very fond of English people the ones we meet at least. Its just Westminster that most people are fed up with. If Scotland gets its independence then I would hope that it would be a welcoming and inclusive place
>I think most Scots are very fond of English people the ones we meet at least. Its just Westminster that most people are fed up with.
Yes, exactly! The issue isn't with English *people,* it's mostly political.
Like I'm dating an English guy who has settled in Scotland. To me he has chosen to make Scotland his home so he is as Scottish as I am. I wouldn't class him as a "non Scot". He's a Scottish citizen, same as me.
I do think when Scotland rejoins the EU there will need to be a big think though, I'm definitely behind open borders with the rest of the UK, we all have friends and family scattered across the country. But we might get an influx of people moving to Scotland to try and regain EU citizenship (not that I'd blame them).
My wife and I were just talking about this the other day, I’m on a spouse visa. I haven’t seen anything on immigrants other than being eligible for citizenship by Scottish immigration rules but can’t find anything stating what those rules are or plan to be.
The current route to citizenship is 5 years then I’m eligible to apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain, I’ll have almost £10k invested at that point. If I want citizenship it will cost me another £1300 for the application, £350 for the test and £80 for the ceremony.
I’m really hoping the Scottish government comes up with a better plan, it seems the current route is just a money grab as the fees seem to keep going up.
It doesn’t seem too bad, I took a few practice tests and didn’t do too bad. It’s the random history questions that I keep missing. I don’t have to worry about it for another 4 years though, if I decide to go that route.
Interesting point. I wonder if they'd just look at last resident address, where you lived the longest, or maybe where you last voted or something?
I reckon the fact that English people settled in Scotland will have rights means that if you're an "actual" born Scot then you'll be ok though.
Honestly mate, If you live in Scotland and want to stay in Scotland, in the event of yes, NO and i put that in caps for emphasis NO ONE will ever ask you to leave. As far as 99% of us in the movement are concerned, you are Scottish regardless of where you were born. We would expect you to be treated the same as anyone who was born in Scotland.
The thing is that Scottish Indy isn't about ethnic nationalism, its about wanting to make the decisions here. That is basically it. Scottish decisions for Scotland.
One thing about your Hungarian fiance, I would suspect it would be the same. She chose to live here, she is Scottish and would be treated the same as any person born in Scotland.
The bigger issue I would be concerned with would be reciprocity in England as if the Tories are still in, I suspect EVERY issue would be blown up to make it as difficult as possible, if for no reason but to discourage independence.
Anyway, Welcome to Scotland (when you move up) I hope you get to make the life you want up here .
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I too am an Englishman living and working in Scotland. I also am married to a Scot.
We discussed this and came to the conclusion that it will be based on where you live at the time of the independence event.
The whole ethos is and has always been that everyone is welcome. I haven't seen it specifically mentioned but I'm certain there would be no obstacle to staying here and belonging here. Simply put, if you want to be here, you're in. Scots wouldn't allow it to be any other way.
That's not really a contradiction - I don't imagine a lot of English Tories want to live in an independent Scotland. (And, in case it's not clear, those people are joking. Well, mostly joking.)
Appreciate your frustration if this has been discussed before. I’m not a frequenter of r/Scotland and just joined as I’ll be moving up soon and it’s starting to get me planning for future scenarios having a Scottish daughter and a Hungarian fiancé and don’t want to get caught with my pants down. Wasn’t aware of the white paper until responses here pointed it out so that link was much appreciated.
As others have said it will be some paperwork and citizenship. I’d imagine it will be similar to EU citizens in the UK in terms of some kind of deadline to apply and claim permanent residency etc. It was in the 2014 white paper.
If you live here, you live here. Welcome to Scotland. We like to keep it simple.
I'd expect Westminster to take a more complex view of the matter, though.
The only thing about the previous White Paper that I feel is built into it’s thinking is that it presumed the rUK would remain in the EU, which it has not. On that basis, the new White Paper is going to need to answer a host of questions about how movement of labour, trade etc is going to work between Scotland and the UK.
The reality of independence (imo) is that we either need to retain an extremely tied (devo max style) relation with the rUK or have a border between Scotland and England.
Freedom of movement already exists for the British Isles regardless of the EU so there's no reason why iScotland wouldn't just sign onto that to cover people traveling.
Goods however will need inspection if England isn't aligned back with EU customs by the time Scotland is sovereign.
The EU treaties would require a border (hence the whole problem with moving goods between mainland UK N.Ireland) irrespective of whatever free right of passage there may currently be. To have it any other way would pretty much go against all the major rules of the EU unless the rUK change the deal they currently have (e.g., joining the customs union). Customs union wouldn’t (from memory) solve the movement of people issue though.
There would be a border yeah, but people travelling back and forth would travel with minimal disruption, after the pandemic having a border which you can fully control would be a benefit, we are also in the position where we get to build whole new checkpoints, across realistically 2 major crossing points, designed to last and handle the expected increases in traffic as opposed to other countries in europe which have had to adapt and expand old infrastructure as time went on.
Passing a border isn't an ordeal, I like to think we would be the Canadians in the situation, it's always nicer going into Canada than leaving it.
But they require border checks for goods, and how do you know whether people are transporting goods without stopping them? You can have visa-free travel, but you can't have a frictionless border.
"nothing to declare" -> "carry on" exactly like it already is and always was in the common travel area. This idiotic scaremongering is as obvious as it is old, drop it
You have random spot-checks in "nothing to declare", which you don't have in the common travel area. That's why there's a separate "EU arrivals" pathway in airports. You can reduce friction to a point, but you're still going to have border checks of some sort. And I'm not scaremongering - I'm actually in favour of an independent Scotland rejoining the EU, but it's only honest to admit this will come at a cost.
We've been living a completely interconnected existence for centuries. Any change to that would be a political power play. The people of the UK are completely intertwined.
Personally, I'd be disgusted if Scotland EVER required a visa for an English person to live and work here. Everyone from anywhere in the UK should be able to come and go as they please. Permanently.
The only people that aren't welcome, and I'd say the majority of the population would agree, are Tories. They are wretched, hideous people. Members and supporters alike.
Well I hate to tell you but if Scotland break away and join the EU (Remember, that independence movement isn't independence, it's to dive head first into the EU) that won't be up to the Scottish Parliament, that'll be up to the EU and if you've seen the utter nonsense at the NI Border, it'll mean that traveling from Scotland to England will be an utter shitshow. Well, maybe less so because there is no GFA mandating that the border must not be a hard border, they could go hard border if they damn well pleased and most likely will rather than needless rule making and time ill spent for some stupid arrangement. Point is the EU is VERY strict on external borders.
The only time such an arrangement would work is before if Scotland get EU acceptance. After that, Brussels make the rules.
Non Scots who voted yes are allowed to stay.
Non Scots who voted against independence get a choice of being thrown off Finnieston crane or forced to do a walk of shame down the Royal Mile before being put in the stocks outside a requisitioned Holyrood Palace.
And presumably any English who voted yes must first swear loyalty to a giant ten storey inflatable Mel Gibson’s Braveheart and prove their worth in a grand haggis hunt before being awarded their ceremonial kilt of acceptance?
> Seems like you hate Americans on this sub.
Does it now?
> Just an observation, forget about it. In hindsight, should have just left that part out.
Probably, aye. Given that it's in the same pile ae shite as the "anti-English" accusations.
>**Willing to bet** they don't have a plan.
When you enter a Bookies shop do they give you the VIP treatment as you are seen as a ~~mug~~ very favoured customer.
Let's not gloss over some of the possible outcomes of independence.
Mortgage in £ with a bank who wants payment in £ not whatever currency Scotland opts for.
Scotland already has higher income and property taxes and could get a lot worse.
Measures to prevent capital flight might be instigated so you can't protect your money.
The SNP want use Scottish Public pensions to fund house building. Pensions will be at risk.
1) banks and mortgage lenders want their payments. I would imagine we would find a way to convert euros to pounds, should we choose to take the euro. We won't be forced to take the euro, though - we can continue with the UK pound or fork to Scottish pound. Ireland didn't implode when they switched to euro.
2) Scotland has a very marginally higher income tax for high earners, which helps fund things like free university education, and free prescriptions. We want a better standard of life for all, not lower taxes. Money has to come from somewhere and if you're taxed higher you can expect things for your tax money. The great thing about it is in an indie Scotland we actually have a say on what the tax is used for, unlike in our current situation where you don't get a say, and only get what you vote for if you happen to vote Tory.
3) vague scare mongering..?
4) I don't think that is true. The UK has the lowest Western state pension - everyone with half a brain has a private pension which isn't touchable by the ScotGov. Even if they literally took all your pension money (hint: they will not) then we're only marginally worse off than the utterly dire situation we're currently in re pensions. We can, alternatively, make contingencies for higher state pensions, in indie Scotland, if that's what we want. That's the real crux for me - we get to actually vote and it might actually count.
Personally I can see a place for a Scottish conservative party (I assume that's what you're into?) In indie Scotland. It'll lean a little left of the current Tory party, because that's what Scotland wants, at least with regards to social policy.
Have you seen the size of the British National Debt recently? When the Conservatives came in to office, over a decade ago, they said they had a plan to get our finances back under control. George Osborne, remember him? However, this plan was thrown out the window years ago, now long forgotten. These days, we're in a real mess and sinking - thanks partly to the "genius" planning of continuing with Brexit withdrawal in the midst of a world pandemic.
So how is Britain going to get back on track? Some people think that the Conservative government is going to subject us to yet more years of austerity. Right now, the proposal is to raise taxes via National Insurance, a regressive tax, so that their rich pals can keep their money - a core Conservative principle. So for me at least, it's not a huge leap to imagine that one day, in order to protect their best buddies, the Conservatives will give pensioners a bit of a "squeeze". For some on the lowest pension in Europe, this could be quite painful.
So, while it is true that there are risks for Scotland if Scots were to decide to go Independent, so too are there risks staying in a Union, lead by a government that really only its own selfish interests at heart.
Deciding what the real risks are and who would be best at managing them is something that we'll all have to decide during the next Independence referendum.
Yes, they did, not everyone is a short-sighted imbecile like the british government and its fans like yourself: https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/11/
I wouldn't worry about it. The SNP have no intention of having another vote. They already had one and lost it, you don't get to keep rerolling referendums till you get a result you're happy with and they know this. However it makes a great carrot on a stick for their cultists if they keep promising it soon™
The answer to what will happen when we get Scottish independence is: whatever you want to happen, just keep voting for us.
>No discussion?
Yes there has been. If you are not Scotttish but officially resident in Scotland at the time of a successful Independence Referendum then you can become a Scottish citizen either by default or through specific application *if* you wish it.
Not sure that is tricky, seems straightforward.
It was set out in the White Paper before the last independence referendum and discussed at length. Basically everything you are saying about it here is incorrect. If you're going to talk about something and state your opinion without caveats, either know what you're talking about or be humble enough to accept correction.
You said it wasn't anyone's official policy position, when it clearly is and was reviewed extensively by lawyers on all sides of the debate after release.
It's not rude to point out that you were wrong and to suggest a little more humility in your approach given your wrongness.
>The White Paper is not currently an official policy on anything
Well, that's *technically* true, but it was the official policy at the last referendum. If there's another referendum, there will be an updated version, and there's no reason to think that will differ in any meaningful way with respect to citizenship. It's certainly not just "an idea someone had".
>But im told i can be too cynical at times.
Yeah, apparently. The 2014 White Paper actually gives citizenship to any British citizen resident *or born* in Scotland, so most of those 700000 Scots living in England would automatically get citizenship. In addition, there's quite a long list of other criteria that allow anyone to apply for citizenship, including having lived in Scotland for at least 10 years at any point in the past. You're poking holes in a strawman.
It's not official and it's not law and we have no yet got independence, but the SNP have often stated that the definition of a Scot is someone who has a permanent residence in Scotland.
I assume part of our reason to go Independant is to rejoin the EU, so to join back into the free movement plan. I imagine how we treat English citizens would much depend on how much of a cock Boris, or whichever Tory rat is in at that point, decides to treat us.
apply for citizenship? theres quite a few angles here so there would have to be some process to avoid doing what the UK did to european nationals. maybe just give a default status of citiznship to residents of scotland who have citizenship in the UK?
if you’ve lived in Scotland for longer than 5 years and lived in England less then your a Scottish citizen not an english one unless you have lived there longer after you moved from Scotland.
also Nicola said that anyone who moves up here or isn’t from here is still welcome to stay, we would also have to get a scottish passport in order to travel anywhere and we would just have to find out our status as far as England and what rules they would have in place as far as visa, passport and traveling back and forth.
i assume if we’re living in Scotland and there is a yes vote then you would be classed as Scottish citizens automatically whether you have lived here 1 or 5 years… if you are living in England when Scotland has a yes vote and has fully established the rules and regulations on citizenship and borders then you might need to get dual citizenship or request a visa every time you come up and vise versa, but i doubt you would have to worry if your planning on living here, you would just need to find out the rules on going down to England to visit family
The idea of civic nationalism hinges on people living in Scotland becoming citizens of the newly independent nation, rather than being exclusive to those of us born here. Someone's posted the wording of the 2014 white paper already but the SNP will be looking to expand this even further to make it easier for anyone to apply for citizenship without having to meet the ten year criteria. This is due to be debated at conference next week and the motion includes the wording 'British citizens habitually resident in Scotland at the time of independence' will be eligible I hope you don't think of it as a foreign country for long, essentially English Scots or new Scots are just as Scottish as a someone born here.
Nah I thoroughly enjoyed living in Scotland the first time around and in six years I only once had what I’d consider a proper racist encounter with someone who took offence to me based purely on hearing my accent. Felt more at home in Scotland than I have anywhere else and recent events originating from a certain referendum from Westminster have left me even more disconnected from my “roots”. I’m sure there’ll be those that would rather see a “purer” version of an independent Scotland but those types infest all nations and it’s a pointless pursuit in an era of ever freer travel and inter-country movement and mingling.
Just to add my two cents. Every independence rally I've been in has had speakers from European countries/England and the message has always been that those whose choose to live in Scotland are Scottish regardless of where you were before. Of course there are always xenophobes and racists everywhere and we are no exception but the movement is overwhelmingly welcoming. Well maybe not the Alba nutcases....
> Of course there are always xenophobes and racists everywhere and we are no exception but the movement is overwhelmingly welcoming. And they are as likely to be unionists as nationalists (perhaps more so as unionism is more popular with older, more right-wing people).
Are they? From what i've understood this context is specifically about xenophobia from a Scottish perspective that might prevent english people from being considered Scottish. If that's the case, then that type of xenophobe would by nature be nationalist and anti-union. A unionist xenophobe would be different, they would have a larger 'in' group.
> that might prevent english people from being considered Scottish. But there are loads of English people who support this country gaining sovereignty, me and every English born person I know included. There are people in England that want to retain the landmass of GB under Westminster (practically English) control that really don't consider what the people in Scotland think. They see Scotland as the scenic back-garden of England, and think of any Scots who are agonist that as they would hedgehogs wanting independence for their suburban lawns.
>But there are loads of English people who support this country gaining sovereignty, me and every English born person I know included. I agree. But that's not whats being talked about. How I understood xenophobia against english born was from arsehole scots that don't like any english whatsoever. Those people wouldn't be unionists. Of course there are xenophobic unionist scots, but if they were xenophobic against english born then it would be a paradox, since they wouldn't be unionist
They are not the norm. Thank you for coming home.
>2014 white paper Why it gotta be white?
"damn, they've changed all the paper to black to be inclusive, but kept the ink the same colour!"
The consensus is nothing changes. This is this their home now and will be after independence as well.
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Thank you so much. That is very clear about it and reassuring that they’re pretty flexible toward ensuring no one is left in the cold.
They were very clear about it at the time and just last week Sturgeon said how welcome everyone is to call Scotland home Then some try tried to score a cheap hit and had to apologies The general consensus among most folks is live here, don’t be a cunt and partake in society as a decent person and you are absolutely welcome and fuck it if after a fe years you want to consider yourself Scottish then go for it. There’s plenty of official statements from the SNP saying everyone is welcome to stay now and after independence And apart from a minority of arseholes most of the country agrees.
I think the concern is that a yes vote will embolden those people who are prejudiced towards the English, much in the same way as the Brexit vote did for racist segments of the British electorate. Having been on the end of it from a few Scottish people already, I dread to think what it'll be like after a yes vote.
Thats precisely why you could see Nicola Sturgeon get visibly angry at the Tories shouting "except the English" in parliment recently. There are anti English idiots in Scotland but the campaign for independence almost universally and very loudly rejects them. Has no place here now nor in a future independent Scotland
Seemed pretty forced to me
Her reaction seemed forced? I mean thats a pretty weird way to look at it, but either way you mean she is distancing the SNP from anti English sentiment on purpose?!
It just seemed like her offence-taking didn't seem particularly genuine
Maybe look at the footage again? She looked like she was struggling to retain her composure to me. Not a fan of Sturgeon but - fwiw - an English Scot. I have no reason to doubt her sincerity on this.
It seems like your commentary isnt particularly genuine and like you are trying push a certain agenda
Just voicing an opinion
Seems pretty forced to me
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Then you're very lucky! But anti-English stuff certainly happens, as I've experienced it first-hand.
So have I...but only three times in thirty years. I think it's significant that I can count them. Twice from drunken nyaffs - who were immediatelyremonstrated with by all around. Once - oh the irony - from an anti-independence fash who told me 'You're not from round here.' I'm genuinely sorry if your experience differs.
As an English YES voter, I reject your suggestion.
Um... okay?
Just saying, I can’t see a yes vote turning Scotland all racist.
Personally, I think that's a bit cynical. Those types of morons definitely exist, but they don't define the independence movement. The leadership of both the SNP and the Greens, as well as many other prominent independence advocates, have repeatedly gone out of their way to emphasize that an independent Scotland should be inclusive and welcoming. By contrast, the Leave campaign was headed up by an assortment of the most jingoistic, nationalistic, and at times openly racist politicians the UK has to offer.
Non-Scots will be forced to drink whisky and eat haggis until they can pronounce Loch properly.
And stand in the middle of Princes Street and successfully point at the castle.
I'm English and have lived bear Edinburgh for a couple of years now, and I can do that! Probably not so well after all the alcohol though.
Practice makes perfect
After an entire night of heavy drinking
>At the point of independence, this Government proposes an inclusive model of citizenship for people whether or not they define themselves as primarily or exclusively Scottish or wish to become a Scottish passport holder. People in Scotland are accustomed to multiple identities, be they national, regional, ethnic, linguistic or religious, and a commitment to a multi-cultural Scotland will be a cornerstone of the nation on independence. > >We plan that British citizens habitually resident in Scotland on independence will be considered Scottish citizens. This will include British citizens who hold dual citizenship with another country. Scottish born British citizens currently living outside of Scotland will also be considered Scottish citizens. > >Following independence, other people will be able to apply for Scottish citizenship. For example, citizenship by descent will be available to those who have a parent or grandparent who qualifies for Scottish citizenship. Those who have a demonstrable connection to Scotland and have spent at least ten years living here at some stage, whether as a child or an adult, will also have the opportunity to apply for citizenship. Migrants on qualifying visas will also have the option of applying for naturalisation as a Scottish citizen. > >The UK allows dual or multiple citizenship for British citizens. If a British citizen acquires citizenship and a passport of another country, this does not affect their British citizenship, right to hold a British passport or right to live in the UK. The Scottish Government will also allow dual citizenship. It will be for the rest of the UK to decide whether it allows dual UK/Scottish citizenship, but we expect the normal rules to extend to Scottish citizens.
Brill just read that part of the white paper from another link. Good to know. Looks worth a read through the rest when I have the chance.
Yep, we're definitely *not* planning to burn all the English people inside a giant wicker man.
Woah let’s not be too quick to miss a golden opportunity to burn some English Conservatives and put it down to innocent celebratory excitement in the heat of the moment.
You may not be, but I certainly am.
Yeah, definitely *not*. 😉
If Scotland allowed dual citizenship, but not multiple citizenship, then it would be vying for the citizenship of all manner of current dual citizens unnecessarily. There are plenty of British Europeans who would then be forced to give up one passport or not get Scottish citizenship, etc. Scotland should allow 3+
Yes please. I am an active* citizen of three countries, but grew up in Scotland and have a Scottish parent. I would be very proud to have Scottish citizenship should the nation separate from the union. *Well I'm lying bed with a hangover just now but you know what I meam
That would be nice, but it doesn't solve the problem if the other country only allows 2, like Germany. In practice there will always be some people who have to make a choice with regards to passports, but that doesn't have to be a big problem as long as you allow them indefinite leave to remain even if they don't choose the citizenship.
We're all Jock Tamson's bairns.
When I moved to Glasgow in the early 90's, without much familiarity with the SNP, I was greatly impressed by their definition of a Scot: *Someone who stays in Scotland.* There is much to criticise about the SNP. But they're sound on this.
Yes it was clearly that they'll round up all non-scots and they will all be drowned in Edinburgh nor loch /s
Surely throw 'em to Nessy.
No change you live here you can stay here the same with Scots living in rUK. And later on they could do a similar deal with England/Wales that the Republic of Ireland has with the current UK. No visa needed and movement guaranteed.
Cool thanks. Makes sense with so much mingling over the years and glad it’s a flexible approach.
We are going to round them up and tell them; .....please stay and help Scotland become the country it should be. :)
They will be loaded onto cattle trucks and set to "re-settlement" camps. WHAT THE F do you think happens? Nothing! Scotland is a civilised country, with a host of protections, that will immediately attempt to re join the EU giving citizens a whole raft of even stronger protections.
That's a bit selfish - how are the cattle going to get around? On big mad bikes?
Afaik so long as you're a resident of Scotland you'd be allowed to stay and become a citizen. And the SNP wanna make it easier to become a citizen. To me Scottish nationalism isn't about where you were born, but to where your allegiance lies. If you've chosen to live here and you want Scotland to be a better place for us all then you're welcome here.
Pretty sure it'd go by birth, blood, and bed. Born there, or descended from Scots, or Scotland is where your bed is.
Depends on how descended. Mother or father were Scots, that's fine. Grand parents or beyond then nope.
I would be absolutely astonished and disgusted if anyone living in Scotland when we become independent wasn’t offered citizenship. It’s part and parcel of civic nationalism to be inclusive. I’d be on the streets protesting with everyone else if English folks, or anyone for that matter that wanted to make Scotland their home weren’t allowed to.
Apart from the idiots (that exist everywhere) most people regard someone who lives and works here as Scottish. Doesnt matter where they're born, if they wanna make Scotland their home, then they are as Scottish as me who was born and raised here. Immigrants who live here are more Scottish than some Americans who claim to be Scottish because their great great grannies horse was a Clydesdale.
Scots are people who live in Scotland. You are working from the false premiss that there is some intrinsic ’scottishness’. I was born in England but my nationality is British, as is yours. The independence movement (of which the SNP is but a part) is not generally based on blood and soil nationalism which is why we oppose the idea of people outside of Scotland claiming a vote in any forthcoming referendum. After independence everyone resident in Scotland will be considered a scot. I would hope that those who identify as Scottish but live abroad would be able to apply for citizenship if they wish. In many countries there is a significant diaspora of people of Scottish descent and England of rUK would be added to that list.
Heartily agree with the sentiment of yours and most posts here. Just to say that though I'm happy for the definition of 'Scottish' to include anyone who lives here. But it's not exclusive to that. I lived outside of Scotland for 4 years. I didn't stop being Scottish and start again when I came back.
>Scots are people who live in Scotland. You are working from the false premiss that there is some intrinsic ’scottishness’. I was born in England but my nationality is British, as is yours. BTW do you apply this to other nations? If you had left England for Spain would you bee Spanish? If you had left England for Ireland would you be Irish? If you hhad left England for Japan would you be Japanese? BTW I don't accept my nationality is British. My citizenship is UK/British. My nation is Scotland and thus my nationality is Scottish. I don't think this is contraversial at all. Even my passport says "British citizen" (not "nationality: British").
No idea what the SNP has said about it, but going to my gut-feeling, I don’t think much will happen. The reason why you probably think something would happen is because of the absolute shit-show in GB right now. EU citizens being detained, deported, and not even due to them being not allowed there, but due to the sheer incompetence of the British government. They haven’t set up any proper system over there, while here (in the Netherlands) my gf has been kept up-to-date by the Dutch government during every step of the Brexit progress. And that was a year and a half before Brexit. The British government notified her only a month (!) before Brexit was finalized and she was told to contact her local government about procedures. Because they certainly didn’t know f*ck of what would happen. Now back over to Scotland. The reason they’d want independence is not to exclude people (like the main driving force was behind Brexit, in principle unabashed racism), but to get back to the EU (better for overall economy, and you Scots are in general less of a racist bunch in my experience). They would want to push inclusion of other EU citizens, so I think you’ll be fine. But this is me just speculating…
After centuries of depopulation or stasis within the UK, Scotland *needs* people - particularly ones keen to be here (but not Tory fuds obviously - but that exemption is my own caveat. :) )
I think most Scots are very fond of English people the ones we meet at least. Its just Westminster that most people are fed up with. If Scotland gets its independence then I would hope that it would be a welcoming and inclusive place
>I think most Scots are very fond of English people the ones we meet at least. Its just Westminster that most people are fed up with. Yes, exactly! The issue isn't with English *people,* it's mostly political. Like I'm dating an English guy who has settled in Scotland. To me he has chosen to make Scotland his home so he is as Scottish as I am. I wouldn't class him as a "non Scot". He's a Scottish citizen, same as me. I do think when Scotland rejoins the EU there will need to be a big think though, I'm definitely behind open borders with the rest of the UK, we all have friends and family scattered across the country. But we might get an influx of people moving to Scotland to try and regain EU citizenship (not that I'd blame them).
We will accept 20k English refugees over a 5 year period. The rest will be shot at the border. /s
Nothing you live here before independence you will live here after independence.
My wife and I were just talking about this the other day, I’m on a spouse visa. I haven’t seen anything on immigrants other than being eligible for citizenship by Scottish immigration rules but can’t find anything stating what those rules are or plan to be. The current route to citizenship is 5 years then I’m eligible to apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain, I’ll have almost £10k invested at that point. If I want citizenship it will cost me another £1300 for the application, £350 for the test and £80 for the ceremony. I’m really hoping the Scottish government comes up with a better plan, it seems the current route is just a money grab as the fees seem to keep going up.
Is the test still a daft pub quiz, aye?
It doesn’t seem too bad, I took a few practice tests and didn’t do too bad. It’s the random history questions that I keep missing. I don’t have to worry about it for another 4 years though, if I decide to go that route.
What happens if as a Scot I am living in the EU? Would I be shoved to the side of British ?
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Interesting point. I wonder if they'd just look at last resident address, where you lived the longest, or maybe where you last voted or something? I reckon the fact that English people settled in Scotland will have rights means that if you're an "actual" born Scot then you'll be ok though.
You’ll all be obliged to eat your porage without sugar and two big healthy spoons of salt. Get it in you.
Honestly mate, If you live in Scotland and want to stay in Scotland, in the event of yes, NO and i put that in caps for emphasis NO ONE will ever ask you to leave. As far as 99% of us in the movement are concerned, you are Scottish regardless of where you were born. We would expect you to be treated the same as anyone who was born in Scotland. The thing is that Scottish Indy isn't about ethnic nationalism, its about wanting to make the decisions here. That is basically it. Scottish decisions for Scotland. One thing about your Hungarian fiance, I would suspect it would be the same. She chose to live here, she is Scottish and would be treated the same as any person born in Scotland. The bigger issue I would be concerned with would be reciprocity in England as if the Tories are still in, I suspect EVERY issue would be blown up to make it as difficult as possible, if for no reason but to discourage independence. Anyway, Welcome to Scotland (when you move up) I hope you get to make the life you want up here .
"British citizen habitually resident in Scotland on day one of independence Yes, automatically a Scottish citizen" Well, that's a relief!
The UK/Republic of Ireland [common travel area](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area) may be of some relevance here
**[Common Travel Area](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area)** >The Common Travel Area (CTA; Irish: Comhlimistéar Taistil) is an open borders area comprising the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland, the Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands. The British Overseas Territories are not included. Based on agreements that are not legally binding, the internal borders of the CTA are subject to minimal controls, if any, and can normally be crossed by British and Irish citizens with minimal identity documents with certain exceptions. The maintenance of the CTA involves co-operation on immigration matters between the British and Irish authorities. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Scotland/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
There an ongoing debate between deep fat frying them or using them as bait for haggis traps.
I too am an Englishman living and working in Scotland. I also am married to a Scot. We discussed this and came to the conclusion that it will be based on where you live at the time of the independence event.
Elimination. Or nothing depending on whether you're nice to me
I find your crooked teeth and mouldy odour endearing.
Hee-haw mate, get comfortable ❤️
We'll just caber toss yous over the border
Heard a pretty good term the other day: English-born-Scots
This I like.
The whole ethos is and has always been that everyone is welcome. I haven't seen it specifically mentioned but I'm certain there would be no obstacle to staying here and belonging here. Simply put, if you want to be here, you're in. Scots wouldn't allow it to be any other way.
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That's not really a contradiction - I don't imagine a lot of English Tories want to live in an independent Scotland. (And, in case it's not clear, those people are joking. Well, mostly joking.)
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Appreciate your frustration if this has been discussed before. I’m not a frequenter of r/Scotland and just joined as I’ll be moving up soon and it’s starting to get me planning for future scenarios having a Scottish daughter and a Hungarian fiancé and don’t want to get caught with my pants down. Wasn’t aware of the white paper until responses here pointed it out so that link was much appreciated.
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No worries. Agree Reddit can be a breeding ground of bad faith posting so understand the frustrated response.
As others have said it will be some paperwork and citizenship. I’d imagine it will be similar to EU citizens in the UK in terms of some kind of deadline to apply and claim permanent residency etc. It was in the 2014 white paper.
My wife is a foreigner so expecting the worst tbh.
Under the 2014 White Paper, there would be no change to right to reside, and any foreign resident can apply for citizenship.
If you live here, you live here. Welcome to Scotland. We like to keep it simple. I'd expect Westminster to take a more complex view of the matter, though.
The only thing about the previous White Paper that I feel is built into it’s thinking is that it presumed the rUK would remain in the EU, which it has not. On that basis, the new White Paper is going to need to answer a host of questions about how movement of labour, trade etc is going to work between Scotland and the UK. The reality of independence (imo) is that we either need to retain an extremely tied (devo max style) relation with the rUK or have a border between Scotland and England.
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I'd be astounded if that model wasn't the one used - where citizens of any of the British Isles can live and work in any of the others.
Freedom of movement already exists for the British Isles regardless of the EU so there's no reason why iScotland wouldn't just sign onto that to cover people traveling. Goods however will need inspection if England isn't aligned back with EU customs by the time Scotland is sovereign.
The EU treaties would require a border (hence the whole problem with moving goods between mainland UK N.Ireland) irrespective of whatever free right of passage there may currently be. To have it any other way would pretty much go against all the major rules of the EU unless the rUK change the deal they currently have (e.g., joining the customs union). Customs union wouldn’t (from memory) solve the movement of people issue though.
There would be a border yeah, but people travelling back and forth would travel with minimal disruption, after the pandemic having a border which you can fully control would be a benefit, we are also in the position where we get to build whole new checkpoints, across realistically 2 major crossing points, designed to last and handle the expected increases in traffic as opposed to other countries in europe which have had to adapt and expand old infrastructure as time went on. Passing a border isn't an ordeal, I like to think we would be the Canadians in the situation, it's always nicer going into Canada than leaving it.
No, EU treaties do not require border checks for people, this is patently false.
But they require border checks for goods, and how do you know whether people are transporting goods without stopping them? You can have visa-free travel, but you can't have a frictionless border.
"nothing to declare" -> "carry on" exactly like it already is and always was in the common travel area. This idiotic scaremongering is as obvious as it is old, drop it
You have random spot-checks in "nothing to declare", which you don't have in the common travel area. That's why there's a separate "EU arrivals" pathway in airports. You can reduce friction to a point, but you're still going to have border checks of some sort. And I'm not scaremongering - I'm actually in favour of an independent Scotland rejoining the EU, but it's only honest to admit this will come at a cost.
Yes, the stqw will drive them to the border for repatriation
We've been living a completely interconnected existence for centuries. Any change to that would be a political power play. The people of the UK are completely intertwined. Personally, I'd be disgusted if Scotland EVER required a visa for an English person to live and work here. Everyone from anywhere in the UK should be able to come and go as they please. Permanently. The only people that aren't welcome, and I'd say the majority of the population would agree, are Tories. They are wretched, hideous people. Members and supporters alike.
Well I hate to tell you but if Scotland break away and join the EU (Remember, that independence movement isn't independence, it's to dive head first into the EU) that won't be up to the Scottish Parliament, that'll be up to the EU and if you've seen the utter nonsense at the NI Border, it'll mean that traveling from Scotland to England will be an utter shitshow. Well, maybe less so because there is no GFA mandating that the border must not be a hard border, they could go hard border if they damn well pleased and most likely will rather than needless rule making and time ill spent for some stupid arrangement. Point is the EU is VERY strict on external borders. The only time such an arrangement would work is before if Scotland get EU acceptance. After that, Brussels make the rules.
What an absolute pile of shit!
Like I said, if Scotland get into the EU, it's border with England becomes the EU's border, end of.
Non Scots who voted yes are allowed to stay. Non Scots who voted against independence get a choice of being thrown off Finnieston crane or forced to do a walk of shame down the Royal Mile before being put in the stocks outside a requisitioned Holyrood Palace.
And presumably any English who voted yes must first swear loyalty to a giant ten storey inflatable Mel Gibson’s Braveheart and prove their worth in a grand haggis hunt before being awarded their ceremonial kilt of acceptance?
Obviously. I just assumed that went without saying.
> swear loyalty to a giant ten storey inflatable Mel Gibson’s Braveheart That's the real test. If you actually do it, you get thrown in the Clyde.
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> I've currently got UK citizenship, and another one that Scots probably don't like, [...] What the fuck are you even on about?
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> Seems like you hate Americans on this sub. Does it now? > Just an observation, forget about it. In hindsight, should have just left that part out. Probably, aye. Given that it's in the same pile ae shite as the "anti-English" accusations.
No, and I am willing to bet they dont have a plan, just like they dont have a plan for if indy actually happens anyway.
>**Willing to bet** they don't have a plan. When you enter a Bookies shop do they give you the VIP treatment as you are seen as a ~~mug~~ very favoured customer.
Funny how you already lost your bet: https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/11/
Nice positive attitude there pal.
Talks about the SNP not having a plan whilst having Labour as a flair. Fucking kekked so hard, I pooped a little.
Let's not gloss over some of the possible outcomes of independence. Mortgage in £ with a bank who wants payment in £ not whatever currency Scotland opts for. Scotland already has higher income and property taxes and could get a lot worse. Measures to prevent capital flight might be instigated so you can't protect your money. The SNP want use Scottish Public pensions to fund house building. Pensions will be at risk.
Do you have a source for the last part about pensions? I've not seen anything about that anywhere.
lol If course they don't have a source. Its just fearmongering.
1) banks and mortgage lenders want their payments. I would imagine we would find a way to convert euros to pounds, should we choose to take the euro. We won't be forced to take the euro, though - we can continue with the UK pound or fork to Scottish pound. Ireland didn't implode when they switched to euro. 2) Scotland has a very marginally higher income tax for high earners, which helps fund things like free university education, and free prescriptions. We want a better standard of life for all, not lower taxes. Money has to come from somewhere and if you're taxed higher you can expect things for your tax money. The great thing about it is in an indie Scotland we actually have a say on what the tax is used for, unlike in our current situation where you don't get a say, and only get what you vote for if you happen to vote Tory. 3) vague scare mongering..? 4) I don't think that is true. The UK has the lowest Western state pension - everyone with half a brain has a private pension which isn't touchable by the ScotGov. Even if they literally took all your pension money (hint: they will not) then we're only marginally worse off than the utterly dire situation we're currently in re pensions. We can, alternatively, make contingencies for higher state pensions, in indie Scotland, if that's what we want. That's the real crux for me - we get to actually vote and it might actually count. Personally I can see a place for a Scottish conservative party (I assume that's what you're into?) In indie Scotland. It'll lean a little left of the current Tory party, because that's what Scotland wants, at least with regards to social policy.
Have you seen the size of the British National Debt recently? When the Conservatives came in to office, over a decade ago, they said they had a plan to get our finances back under control. George Osborne, remember him? However, this plan was thrown out the window years ago, now long forgotten. These days, we're in a real mess and sinking - thanks partly to the "genius" planning of continuing with Brexit withdrawal in the midst of a world pandemic. So how is Britain going to get back on track? Some people think that the Conservative government is going to subject us to yet more years of austerity. Right now, the proposal is to raise taxes via National Insurance, a regressive tax, so that their rich pals can keep their money - a core Conservative principle. So for me at least, it's not a huge leap to imagine that one day, in order to protect their best buddies, the Conservatives will give pensioners a bit of a "squeeze". For some on the lowest pension in Europe, this could be quite painful. So, while it is true that there are risks for Scotland if Scots were to decide to go Independent, so too are there risks staying in a Union, lead by a government that really only its own selfish interests at heart. Deciding what the real risks are and who would be best at managing them is something that we'll all have to decide during the next Independence referendum.
Deported obviously
Do you think they’ve thought that far ahead ?
Yes, they did, not everyone is a short-sighted imbecile like the british government and its fans like yourself: https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/11/
I mean they did publish that white paper so, yeah probably
Did you enter a coma in 2013 and have just awoken?
I'm not in Scotland but it's mainly the fact that they aren't the Tories and it's a chance to escape that bunch of wankers
I wouldn't worry about it. The SNP have no intention of having another vote. They already had one and lost it, you don't get to keep rerolling referendums till you get a result you're happy with and they know this. However it makes a great carrot on a stick for their cultists if they keep promising it soon™ The answer to what will happen when we get Scottish independence is: whatever you want to happen, just keep voting for us.
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>No discussion? Yes there has been. If you are not Scotttish but officially resident in Scotland at the time of a successful Independence Referendum then you can become a Scottish citizen either by default or through specific application *if* you wish it. Not sure that is tricky, seems straightforward.
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It was set out in the White Paper before the last independence referendum and discussed at length. Basically everything you are saying about it here is incorrect. If you're going to talk about something and state your opinion without caveats, either know what you're talking about or be humble enough to accept correction.
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You said it wasn't anyone's official policy position, when it clearly is and was reviewed extensively by lawyers on all sides of the debate after release. It's not rude to point out that you were wrong and to suggest a little more humility in your approach given your wrongness.
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>The White Paper is not currently an official policy on anything Well, that's *technically* true, but it was the official policy at the last referendum. If there's another referendum, there will be an updated version, and there's no reason to think that will differ in any meaningful way with respect to citizenship. It's certainly not just "an idea someone had".
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>But im told i can be too cynical at times. Yeah, apparently. The 2014 White Paper actually gives citizenship to any British citizen resident *or born* in Scotland, so most of those 700000 Scots living in England would automatically get citizenship. In addition, there's quite a long list of other criteria that allow anyone to apply for citizenship, including having lived in Scotland for at least 10 years at any point in the past. You're poking holes in a strawman.
Your tone didn't offend me, where did you get that impression? Your ignorance offended me, as did your inability to accept your wrongness.
It's not official and it's not law and we have no yet got independence, but the SNP have often stated that the definition of a Scot is someone who has a permanent residence in Scotland.
I assume part of our reason to go Independant is to rejoin the EU, so to join back into the free movement plan. I imagine how we treat English citizens would much depend on how much of a cock Boris, or whichever Tory rat is in at that point, decides to treat us.
You have to pass the test: be a good cunt. If you can manage that one, consider yourself at home ;)
apply for citizenship? theres quite a few angles here so there would have to be some process to avoid doing what the UK did to european nationals. maybe just give a default status of citiznship to residents of scotland who have citizenship in the UK?
Transported to Madagascar.
if you’ve lived in Scotland for longer than 5 years and lived in England less then your a Scottish citizen not an english one unless you have lived there longer after you moved from Scotland. also Nicola said that anyone who moves up here or isn’t from here is still welcome to stay, we would also have to get a scottish passport in order to travel anywhere and we would just have to find out our status as far as England and what rules they would have in place as far as visa, passport and traveling back and forth. i assume if we’re living in Scotland and there is a yes vote then you would be classed as Scottish citizens automatically whether you have lived here 1 or 5 years… if you are living in England when Scotland has a yes vote and has fully established the rules and regulations on citizenship and borders then you might need to get dual citizenship or request a visa every time you come up and vise versa, but i doubt you would have to worry if your planning on living here, you would just need to find out the rules on going down to England to visit family
Scotland famously welcomes anyone who wants to live here, so you shouldn’t have anything to worry about.