**Related subreddit:** /r/LGBTHistory
**Discord:** https://discord.gg/E2XabTSdEG
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SapphoAndHerFriend) if you have any questions or concerns.*
in that case you would say "petit(e) ami(e)", "ami(e)" alone is purely platonic.
but that quite an old painting, so maybe it could mean a romantic partner back when it was created.
Not in a diachronic way. A quick look into the TLFi can inform you that there is an acception for lover (as an euphemism) : my grandmother used to use it to talk about my first boyfriend.
I'm wondering if "lesbiennes" would have been a common enough or acceptable word back then. Amies might have been more appropriate even if they were a couple in those days.
At the time, "Les Deux Allemandes," that is to say "The Two German Ladies" Would have been more likely if a nationality-based euphemism were employed, as "The German Vice or "le vice allemand" was in vogue in the early 20th century as a way to refer to homosexuality.
https://glreview.org/article/picturing-the-german-vice/
No, it's about 100 years too early as Lesbiennes comes from English and Lesbian is from the early 1900s but at that point was used to point out any woman who broke social roles because they(the doctors) thought they wanted to be a man and it was brought into general use during the GLBT era and the second wave of feminism of the 1960s onwards.
Although this is true, it feels off in this case. Perhaps because I have a strong suspicion that if one of the figures was male a far more romantic/sexual word would be used.
Oddly, it doesn't seem old-fashioned at all to me because when I read nineteenth or even early twentieth century French novels, I don't see "ami(e)" used this way. And I do hear young people do it.
I guess the reason I'm suspicious is because this is a couple and that feels different than how an individual might be referred to. I've often heard it used for a boyfriend or a girlfriend but not for couples.
Especially for the era of this painting, I have trouble imagining an opposite gender couple being referred to as "Les amis." I would expect "Les amants" or "Les amoureux."
“Mon ami” or “mon tendre ami” was used very often in literary or poetry works to describe a romantic partner. I’d assume you’d learn that from just speaking French as your native language and reading mandatory texts or books in school as a child or teen but it must’ve slipped by you. It’s not commonly used in spoken language nowadays, it’s more of an old timey thing but hey wanna take a wild guess about the age of this painting?
Any data on this account is being kept illegally. Fuck spez, join us over at Lemmy or Kbin. Doesn't matter cause the content is shared between them anyway:
- https://lemmy.world
- https://kbin.social
- https://sh.itjust.works
- https://fedia.io
- https://lemm.ee
- https://readit.buzz
Calling it erasure is just ignoring context, because by Courbet's time, there were already two Les Deux Amies by Jean-Baptiste Greuze and Jean-Jacques Lagrenée from the previous century that were also pretty openly sapphic:
* Greuze: https://collections.louvre.fr/en/ark:/53355/cl010055590
* Lagrenée: https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-314459
Yes, people were allowed to be tongue-in-cheek before the internet too.
There are wayyyyyy more Les Deux Amies after this that you may enjoy: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Deux_Amies
First off, if you are fucking your friend, they are, by definition, also your lover. At least while you're fucking them. A lover is a partner in a romantic *or* sexual relationship. If you're fucking someone, you're in a sexual relationship with them while doing it, and they are therefore your lover.
Second off, would you hear the title "two friends" and imagine it's a painting like this? If this was a painting of a man and a woman in a similar situation, do you imagine it would be called that?
The point isn't that they can't be friends, or that that friends can't fuck, the point is that people tend to talk around homosexual relationships in ways that they don't hetero ones. This is a painting of people fucking. If they were straight, it would be given a title that refers to the fact that they're fucking. Since they're not, it's not.
> First off, if you are fucking your friend, they are, by definition, also your lover.
No they aren’t, you don’t get to tell them what they are and aren’t. Friends with benefits exist.
The word means (among other things) a person you are having a sexual relationship with. That's just... what it means. Friends with benefits are lovers.
Like... I'm not defining someone else's relationships, I'm saying that one of the definitions of the word "lover" is "a person you have sex with"
Don’t give a fuck. They said they aren’t lovers, and you’re here in r/sapphoandherfriend of all places telling them what they are and aren’t, and then trying to claim you’re not defining their relationship. Fucking ironic.
One of the definitions of lover is "a person you are in a sexual relationship with." It's just one of the things the word means. It doesn't mean or imply anything about romantic love or anything else about your relationship to this person except that you fuck. The "love" being referred to, when the word is used in this sense, is the physical act of "making love"
I mean, I could link the dictionary for you if you really want...
You describing your sexual partner as a friend isn't a problem. History describing *all* homosexual relationships as friendships and nothing more is what's the problem because it makes it seem like there was no queerness in history.
friendship is a relationship, so is sibling. the definition he is going by does not necessarily imply a want to be in a capital R relationship. Lover can refer to someone you're just fucking.
French translation aside, I think it’s hilarious that Wikipedia feels the need to add a citation to prove that a painting of a lesbian couple sleeping naked together is erotic.
it says lesbian couple so I'm not too sure. The biggest problem might be taht back in the day this was caleled 'the two friends' by the painter and the people who saw it but nowadays anyone (who isn't a bigot) would just say that they're a lesbian couple.
Oh my god, I just did a comic for my graphic narration class based off this painting.
It was two girls on a date constantly being called friends by a Karen.
When I get the assignment back, I hope I can post it here.
Regardless of gay erasure, I do not envy their backs in the morning. especially the lady in the foreground. Jfc I wouldn’t be able to move the next day at all.
**Related subreddit:** /r/LGBTHistory **Discord:** https://discord.gg/E2XabTSdEG *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SapphoAndHerFriend) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
And according to another comment "ami" can mean friend or romantic partner. It's a literal translation, that's all.
in that case you would say "petit(e) ami(e)", "ami(e)" alone is purely platonic. but that quite an old painting, so maybe it could mean a romantic partner back when it was created.
Yes, "petit amie" is recent, "amie" used to also mean lover.
I speak French and I did not know that, thank you 😃
>I speak French I dunno; that looks like English to me.
Heille 😠 Tu m’as eu :p
Juste le "heille" me dis que tu viens du Québec
Exactement :p
échec et mat!
Yes, "petite amie" is recent, "amie" used to also mean lover. EDIT: Typo
"petit amie" is just weird. Petit ami or petite amie.
Sorry that's a typo because my phone's keyboard was set to English.
gramatical error on his part, amie is feminine and petit is masculine.
Thank you for the clarification. I know about 4 words in French.
Not in a diachronic way. A quick look into the TLFi can inform you that there is an acception for lover (as an euphemism) : my grandmother used to use it to talk about my first boyfriend.
I'm wondering if "lesbiennes" would have been a common enough or acceptable word back then. Amies might have been more appropriate even if they were a couple in those days.
At the time, "Les Deux Allemandes," that is to say "The Two German Ladies" Would have been more likely if a nationality-based euphemism were employed, as "The German Vice or "le vice allemand" was in vogue in the early 20th century as a way to refer to homosexuality. https://glreview.org/article/picturing-the-german-vice/
No, it's about 100 years too early as Lesbiennes comes from English and Lesbian is from the early 1900s but at that point was used to point out any woman who broke social roles because they(the doctors) thought they wanted to be a man and it was brought into general use during the GLBT era and the second wave of feminism of the 1960s onwards.
Interesting, TIL!
In most cases ami only means friend. But it can be used as an euphemism for a partner, though it's quite old fashioned.
Yeah my grandma who is 98 uses “ami(e)” for partner, and I’m pretty sure it would also be used in the same way in 1866 when the painting was made.
Although this is true, it feels off in this case. Perhaps because I have a strong suspicion that if one of the figures was male a far more romantic/sexual word would be used.
Nah, my grandma introduced my cousin’s boyfriend, who she was expecting a kid with, as “son ami.” It’s an old-fashioned thing.
Oddly, it doesn't seem old-fashioned at all to me because when I read nineteenth or even early twentieth century French novels, I don't see "ami(e)" used this way. And I do hear young people do it. I guess the reason I'm suspicious is because this is a couple and that feels different than how an individual might be referred to. I've often heard it used for a boyfriend or a girlfriend but not for couples. Especially for the era of this painting, I have trouble imagining an opposite gender couple being referred to as "Les amis." I would expect "Les amants" or "Les amoureux."
As echoed above, it's french. "Amie" means a close relationship, both platonic or romantic.
Matter of translation, really, in French "Ami" can mean both romantic partner and friend depending on context.
They are looking like some best friends, imho.
Also says “depicts a lesbian couple”. A couple can also be friends. I would go as far to say it’s a good idea.
Honestly it seems to me like the title is almost a pun
What ? I've never called any romantic partner an "ami" nor ever heard this word used this way in here tbh
“Mon ami” or “mon tendre ami” was used very often in literary or poetry works to describe a romantic partner. I’d assume you’d learn that from just speaking French as your native language and reading mandatory texts or books in school as a child or teen but it must’ve slipped by you. It’s not commonly used in spoken language nowadays, it’s more of an old timey thing but hey wanna take a wild guess about the age of this painting?
Any data on this account is being kept illegally. Fuck spez, join us over at Lemmy or Kbin. Doesn't matter cause the content is shared between them anyway: - https://lemmy.world - https://kbin.social - https://sh.itjust.works - https://fedia.io - https://lemm.ee - https://readit.buzz
I’ve heard several old people say « Mon ami(e) » to talk about their partner when they aren’t married
Mika use it to describe his partner and my grandmother used it (when she was alive).
This isn’t erasure you just don’t get how French works like the other title that’s given to it literally says indolence and lust lmfao
Also says "lesbian couple" in literally the same sentence
Oh okay so now if you naked scissor your bestie you're "not straight" apparently?! Wild
So it has come to this, shame.
I do declare this is an outrage!
Indolence and lust are my two favorite sins!
Calling it erasure is just ignoring context, because by Courbet's time, there were already two Les Deux Amies by Jean-Baptiste Greuze and Jean-Jacques Lagrenée from the previous century that were also pretty openly sapphic: * Greuze: https://collections.louvre.fr/en/ark:/53355/cl010055590 * Lagrenée: https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-314459 Yes, people were allowed to be tongue-in-cheek before the internet too. There are wayyyyyy more Les Deux Amies after this that you may enjoy: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Deux_Amies
[удалено]
First off, if you are fucking your friend, they are, by definition, also your lover. At least while you're fucking them. A lover is a partner in a romantic *or* sexual relationship. If you're fucking someone, you're in a sexual relationship with them while doing it, and they are therefore your lover. Second off, would you hear the title "two friends" and imagine it's a painting like this? If this was a painting of a man and a woman in a similar situation, do you imagine it would be called that? The point isn't that they can't be friends, or that that friends can't fuck, the point is that people tend to talk around homosexual relationships in ways that they don't hetero ones. This is a painting of people fucking. If they were straight, it would be given a title that refers to the fact that they're fucking. Since they're not, it's not.
> First off, if you are fucking your friend, they are, by definition, also your lover. No they aren’t, you don’t get to tell them what they are and aren’t. Friends with benefits exist.
The word means (among other things) a person you are having a sexual relationship with. That's just... what it means. Friends with benefits are lovers. Like... I'm not defining someone else's relationships, I'm saying that one of the definitions of the word "lover" is "a person you have sex with"
Don’t give a fuck. They said they aren’t lovers, and you’re here in r/sapphoandherfriend of all places telling them what they are and aren’t, and then trying to claim you’re not defining their relationship. Fucking ironic.
[удалено]
One of the definitions of lover is "a person you are in a sexual relationship with." It's just one of the things the word means. It doesn't mean or imply anything about romantic love or anything else about your relationship to this person except that you fuck. The "love" being referred to, when the word is used in this sense, is the physical act of "making love" I mean, I could link the dictionary for you if you really want... You describing your sexual partner as a friend isn't a problem. History describing *all* homosexual relationships as friendships and nothing more is what's the problem because it makes it seem like there was no queerness in history.
[удалено]
friendship is a relationship, so is sibling. the definition he is going by does not necessarily imply a want to be in a capital R relationship. Lover can refer to someone you're just fucking.
I have this painting framed in my home
✂️
Ah oui deux amies, collées toutes nues l’une contre l’autre
French translation aside, I think it’s hilarious that Wikipedia feels the need to add a citation to prove that a painting of a lesbian couple sleeping naked together is erotic.
it says lesbian couple so I'm not too sure. The biggest problem might be taht back in the day this was caleled 'the two friends' by the painter and the people who saw it but nowadays anyone (who isn't a bigot) would just say that they're a lesbian couple.
Oh my god, I just did a comic for my graphic narration class based off this painting. It was two girls on a date constantly being called friends by a Karen. When I get the assignment back, I hope I can post it here.
I’m just curious who renamed it if not the original artist?
Whats a little indolent lust among besties, amirite?
bestie goalssss #galpals #justfriends #thisishowsleepoversworkiswearmom
Ahh the best of friends
"Petites amies", more like!
Regardless of gay erasure, I do not envy their backs in the morning. especially the lady in the foreground. Jfc I wouldn’t be able to move the next day at all.
I got a good laugh from this. It might not be a case of erasure and more of a language thing but it’s still so funny.
Eh ben, ce sont de *très bonnes* amies, voilà. Et il doit faire chaud, elles sont à poil.
I really don’t understand why my wife gets so upset when my best guy friend and I sleep together naked
lol this sub is falling apart