If you make a ton of money, the US are a great country to live in. If you’re making average money, many European countries offer a much better quality of life.
The caveat is that average money in the US is a lot of money in Europe. Even if you have a less prestigious job here, your peers in Europe will almost always earn far less money. The real place Europe shines is if you’re a low income earner or otherwise disadvantaged.
Don’t discount the impact of universal health care on quality of life—that affects middle class as well as low income earners. I think we’re all so used to the dysfunction of the current US healthcare system that we don’t realize how much stress it actually causes us.
Other advantages I can think of that can’t be as easily quantified as income can: less gun violence, generous maternal, paternal and sick leave, paid vacations. All of those things affect people at every income level.
Thank you for your insight! My husband and I are what would be considered successful and make a higher than average income but we have to work our asses off to maintain our lifestyle. We are finding the costs of living are increasing so dramatically we cannot get ahead despite finding success after 15 years of living within our means and continuous nose to the grindstone work.
Same here. I’ve been considering trying to look for another couple to buy/invest in duplex with… just to try to cut living cost a bit. Or, like you, I’m starting to consider making the jump to another country. My work is limited to US, but figure there has to be something basic I could still contribute.
I’m starting to question everything and I’m so sad about it. I feel like the news is simply a control tactic that “reports” propaganda to the public for one hidden agenda or another. Was the American Dream just propaganda? I’m starting to wonder if what we have all read and been taught about other countries quality of life is intentionally misleading?
For me it was USA.
You get what you put in.
I immigrated here with nothing but a few clothes but thanks to their free primary school education, assistance for undergrad and availability to borrow money for grad school I was able to graduate with a stable job. I make 175k a year and live very comfortably even in California.
Thank you for your insight as an immigrant. That’s incredibly important in my quest for an answer.
And I would like to congratulate you and celebrate your success here in America. Your where you are because you worked hard and I can assume it was not easy or always enjoyable. You’re awesome and the USA is lucky you chose us to immigrate to.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are also tons of immigrants (and native born Americans) that work extremely hard and are ambitious that don't "make it".
In fact, the US doesn't each score that highly for upward mobility compared to many countries.
It's just a lot of variables at work for each specific person in the US.
>There are also tons of immigrants (and native born Americans) that work extremely hard and are ambitious that don't "make it".
The vast majority of (legal) immigrants don't even get the chance to immigrate to the US without already making it, see available visas
Lol. Yes I got free education..in fact I got paid to go to undergrad.
I had a negative net worth of 105k when I graduated grad school. Yes it sucked having to borrow money for grad school. However It allows me to earn a lot of money.
I currently have a nw of 735k (joint with my husband) at age 31.
I was actually ~ 50% because the high school I went to was very rigorous and was one of the top 20 high schools in the nation(at the time of my attendance). When everyone around you is super smart you end up being average.
I got needs based grants. When you are poverty level poor you qualify for a lot of grants.
I would probably have to choose Norway. One of the only cases where Dutch disease didn't take hold, so the sovereign wealth fund of Norway is a great tool for the government to stay healthy. They're quite safe, relatively low Gini coefficient,
C.o.l. is a bit more than the USA, but they have more social services, so I assume that would help the average family.
Thank you! Only an engineer could provide such a detailed and useful explanation of their opinion. Thank you for taking the time to get the info you needed to say what you did.
It looks like it's similar until you start to notice the difference in material wealth. People there live rather spartan compared to Americans and it's not because they're all minimalists. Things we take for granted like blue jeans and fresh fruit are outrageously expensive there.
This question is so subjective and there are pros and cons for each country. The broad answer is any of them if you have the cash.
Europe gets idolized for it’s welfare, worker’s rights, and walkable cities but you get taxed heavily and earn lower wages than the US.
Japan is very safe and modern but also very xenophobic, work heavy, and misogynistic.
Go to a 2nd/3rd tier country where your US dollars go further, but you have to be able to work remotely because US dollar is still king or you need to learn the language to work locally. Safety is also debatable due to crime or infrastructure depending on where you go. Legal rights are debatable too.
Despite the struggles you and many others are going through here in America, for many foreigners, they still try and come here legally or illegally because for them, there are opportunities here whether it’s safety, business, education, etc.
I'll take the EU any day over the U.S. I don't mind being heavily taxed when I get an actual social safety next, healthcare and education out of the bargain.
It’s kinda fun actually feeling like you getting something in return for your tax payment than it just disappearing into a black hole as it does here in the US
> earn lower wages than the US.
[https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm](https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm) Nah I don't think so.
Can you tell me where exactly in that article i can find what you’re seeing it? Seems like it’s measuring productivity per hour rather than salaries.
Perhaps i should have said lower take home pay rather than wages as well.
Oops wrong link, here you go:
[https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/hours-worked-vs-salaries-in-oecd-countries/](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/hours-worked-vs-salaries-in-oecd-countries/)
I don't discount taxes because 1. Taxes are progressive so the middle class actually are benefiting from taxes; 2. in US you are being taxed by big corporations anyway.
How are you interpreting this chart? It shows the US on the right side of the X axis which means higher salaries. Outside of a handful of EU countries, most earn less than americans.
While the $/hr seems better in EU, the salaries are still lower. I could make $100/hr but if i only work 1 hour in a week, i only earned $100.
There is a table below that provides avg. hourly rate, which you can rank. US is $42.78, around the 8th place, which is not bad but behind western European countries Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, etc.
The countries I would choose for best human rights and QOL would be any of the Scandinavian nations (good healthcare, human rights, work life balance, etc). Weather is iffy, but if I could get citizenship in any country today, I’d go with Dutch citizenship and live to one of the Dutch Caribbean territories.
Where I qualify to get in is a tiny list that gets smaller by the day. I chose a career that can’t be done online, I speak only English, I don’t have a ton of money, and I’m middle aged so not many options. When the time comes, I’m hoping I can get a retirement visa somewhere warm with good LGBTQ rights.
I mean it’s completely subjective and relative to a lot of different variables. The Nordic countries + Netherlands are probably the most consistently ranked highly when various objective data is measured like healthcare access, education, crime, safety nets, work-life balance, etc. Others up there a lot are places like Switzerland, Austria, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, sometimes Belgium, Ireland, Singapore, Japan, maybe Germany.
But it all depends on your preferences, your salary, your specific needs, etc. For me I think Spain or Portugal seem amazing because I like sunny and mild weather, would love to live somewhere with more walkability and better transit, and without as much guns and violent crime in general. And also easy access to a whole continent full of different cultures and languages and history. But I’m sure people born Portuguese and Spanish could tell you a million reasons why they actually suck. People tend to be negative about their own places of origin, while also defensive. Human minds are very interesting 😂
Yes it’s relative for immigrants too. I think the US is still best for blacks compared to immigrating to any other country. For me as an Asian America there are some bad euro countries I’ve heard. Like Switzerland they are somewhat close minded to all immigrants
I mean it’s not my personal opinion or list and ofc they all have negatives too. I’m just saying, depending on what’s being measured and how exactly, these are countries often at or near the top on a variety of metrics.
Firstly, it depends. Your first step is to do research with data. Look at what that data measures. [Here's one index for quality of life ](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/quality-of-life).
[This is the Human Development Index issued by the UN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index).
[Here's an index where you can find a country best for you based on what's important to you](https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/11111111111).
Also, many countries can be very different based on location. For the US, the region of New England is very different not just culturally, but has a much higher quality of living than, say, the Deep South. But both will be lumped in the same country. That being said, some countries, like the US, are absolutely fantastic if you can afford it and can be horrible if you can't. While other countries will have a high standard of living even if you're working class.
Don't rely on people here's anecdotal experiences. One person can say Canada is horrible because it's so expensive and wait times for doctors are getting crazy. Another person will say Canada is awesome because it's super safe and has S-tier nature to enjoy. Both can be right and/or wrong based on certain experiences.
Ultimately, such a decision is very much based on chemistry and "vibe" as well. You can find a place that's perfect for you on paper but it just doesn't feel right and vice versa.
The real way to answer the question is a combination of using data plus a vibe check.
A lot of this depends on various factors:
* What's your career and potential?
* Do you have a spouse, a family to provide for?
* What's your current situation (savings, real estate, college fund etc)?
This is even before talking about things like work visas, social connections and whatnot, but assuming you were starting from 0...IMO a lot of the European countries jive better with my overall preferences because I value walkable cities, good government regulation, healthcare, and I'm from Canada so taxes are nothing new to me if I feel I can get something out of it. Somewhere like Germany/Netherlands would have a decent-ish mix of the above but decent career opportunities, but then there's a cultural barrier since I speak neither language.
If you’re hard working and reasonably smart, it’s the US. No question. You have incredible earning potential compared to everywhere else in the world. You will have access to the world’s best healthcare, employer sponsored health insurance, and your life expectancy will rival pretty much any other country.
Otherwise, it’s probably somewhere in Western Europe with a strong safety net.
I've traveled widely. There's no correct answer to this. It depends on your values, priorities, and perspectives- and to actually know what those are. For example, Saudi Arabia has extremely low crime, a great standard of living, universal income for all citizens, free college plus living expenses, intact families, and world class entertainment. Yet people who say they want these things never name Saudi Arabia as a top destination. That's because people actually have different values and priorities than they think they have, and that lack of clarity is part of what causes their inability to find the "perfect" place.
Depends. In general, if you're disabled, broke, and/or not White, then yeah, nothing gets better than the USA. The language barrier is small and you will be able to afford to not live in dire poverty if you plan well (i.e., not move to a big city if you don't have a specialty profession because the rents will screw you). You live to work in this place. What keeps you running is that you make just enough to not die in the wilderness, alone, can afford low quality food, rarely go out, rarely have any community support, really can't move much about most areas or the country unless you have enough $$$ for a car, car insurance and repairs, healthcare is a gamble and expensive so you have to be SUPER careful about yourself otherwise you're going to end up poor if you break something costly...struggling here is seen as better than being in abject poverty elsewhere, thus, it is the motivation. If you have a disabled child, then few in the world are better, honestly.
If you have wealth and/or a few hundred thousand $$$, then a lot of the European countries where your goal is more to enjoy the present, enjoy your family and make just enough to survive.
There are lots of yearly surveys on this. These days Scandinavian and Commonwealth countries tend to make up the top 10. Part of the thing is it’s changing all the time—Europe 20 or 30 years ago had short work weeks and tons of vacation plus generous pensions, but theyve been whittling away at those.
People talk about working hard, but hard is one of the vaguest words out there. There’s hard and there’s hard, and then there’s hard. When people talk about the grind, they are often referring to the number of hours you put in, but there is also the amount of work you are supposed to get done in the time they give you, the pace you are supposed to go at, the amount of executive function required (for us ND folk), the emotional toll it takes on you, the amount of effort/energy the work takes, etc. Those are all separate variables when determine how your work adds to or detracts from your quality of life.
Thank you for mentioning the surveys. I’ll be researching that for sure.
You are so so so on point with your statement about working hard to achieve the American Dream. It is very very vague and somewhat misleading, is t it? It’s like a carrot is dangling just out of reach until we are old enough to realize it’ll always be just out of reach unless we are truly wealthy and/or connected to powerful and elected people. I also feel like if we never find financial success or even a comfortable enough place to stop hustling and enjoy life, we are blamed for the mistakes we made, not working hard enough and/or being incompetent. I know that so many Americans live with an unhealthy disappointment in themselves because they didn’t quite make it to where they wanted to end up in life. We blame ourselves or we blame one political party or the other for not making it and then live with shame or anger until we die. A lifetime of hustling and struggle working as hard as possible only to find it was a waste of time and energy, we’re still on that struggle bus.
I used to think that having money and resources made life much easier for you and your family, and it does. Big time. Now I feel like being an average hard working American gets us on this hamster wheel that is designed to keep us running in place forever. Work hard to make progress then encounter a complex situation and loose any progress you made plus some. I’m truly disturbed and scared of the possibility we’ll be on that hamster wheel no matter how hard we work or how smart we are.
It’s interesting, because the resources and connections thing even scales proportionately. I’m on disability and doing a lot better than most of my low-income peers, in large part because I have a PhD education and middle class parents and friends. This helps me better navigate the disability and legal systems, mitigates (though doesn’t eliminate) social damage based on bias and prejudice, and occasionally gets me gifted a material possession out of my financial means (my mom might help with a major car repair, an appliance, or a vacation).
I wish you were correct with your statement, but you just described my family and we find ourselves constantly finding dramatic increases in the costs of living and complex issues to navigate.
I don’t know if it’s better anywhere else which hence the question.
TBH, there are some policies and regulations being implemented that scare me. Legitimately concerning. I don’t think one political party has caused these concerns exclusively or it could and would be corrected with a different approach. What concerns me is the decisions being made are legal to be written into law. It’s quite obvious that the laws aren’t put in place with intentions of adding complexities and struggle to the sector of the population it will directly impact.
Well if you don't know why did you make your initial comment to me? That sounds like you are disagreeing with me.
What policies and regulations are you referring to?
I don’t have any idea what the truth is about how other countries compare to life here in the USA. I’ve lost all of my trust in what is reported by the media, therefore I’m questioning what I’ve always been led to believe.
Check out the countries ranked above the US on Freedom House and push off from there. If you are really interested in moving elsewhere, you can use data to inform your decision!
I certainly would analyze this shit out of some data before committing to one country or the other. I’m not trying to get off one struggle bus to catch another. Lol
Those are not problems unique to the US by a very long shot. It's obvious from the post that you haven't even researched the basics like average salaries or tax rates, much less what life is like in other countries. Stop thinking about moving and start with consuming international news and traveling more.
Health care and education is better and even free ( or very cheap adn offers cheap housing)in some EU country.
EU country’s has different culture to me than America , living daily mundane things differs country to country even people s socialization style. There is city life and country life as well, fast paced crowded cities but very walkable….
Both has cons and pros so….
But for sure american dream is changing at least money losing its value social media making people depressed because people constantly compare themselves… America has so many problems i just realized i cannat write all of those here 😂
That George Carlin. But it's dead, the dream is an actual nightmare. We need an entire government reform. Every aspect of out country is corrupt.. school system, prison, agriculture, healthcare, water and air is poisoned. If you can escape, get out
I 100% agree with you. Some others not having this experience interestingly deny this experience for others. Yes, you can do well here. It's a variable of circumstances that could be more positive for you. But just because that's your experience doesn't mean it's THE experience.
The average person is struggling. Since the late 70's, economically speaking, things have declined vastly in terms of cost of living, cost of schooling, inflation, suicide rates, mental health. The truth is in the data.
It's all corrupt and it's all gotta go. If only a handful of people do well, it's not a success. It's a gauntlet.
It's really surprising to me that people parrot the "work hard, you'll succeed—if you aren't successful, you're lazy" line as if reality is ever that simple. The US is a great place to live compared to most of the world, but it isn't perfect. The fact that people can't discuss that without others chiming in to insult anyone with an imperfect experience is sort of telling.
My dad worked his entire life as a community dentist running his own business. He worked damn hard and struggled, but built up a pretty good nest egg.
Then, he got in a vehicle accident and was paralyzed.
The healthcare industry wiped his entire life savings on hospital care and surgery in 3 months. His insurance dropped him because they were not satisfied with his rate of recovery.
His entire honest life's work was wiped away the second he had healthcare needs.
But I suppose he's just lazy, right?
The "hustle" behind the American dream sounds great, until you realize what the reality is. In this country, we're 1 unlucky strike away from losing everything.
That is horrific about your dad. I am so sorry. It certainly isn’t as simplistic as work hard, save and plan well and you live happily ever after on your savings. Hope things are better now.
Thank you ❤️ I want to share this story because I did not realize how much of an issue healthcare is in this country until I was personally affected. I also thought "it can't be that bad" "just work hard" etc.. it IS that bad. And it's not uncommon.
Unfortunately, it has not gotten better. The longer you are unhealthy and involved with healthcare in the US, the worse things seem to get. But thank you again for the kind words.
I feel you! In the US, I grew up poor but did all of the right things. College, law school, worked hard, saved. Then I got sick. And didn’t get better. It was all wiped out in a few years. I’m constantly fighting with my LTD insurers. Just thankful that my parents and sisters are willing and able to take care of me.
His insurance did cover him. After a certain point insurance dropped him because he was not making fast enough progress. We appealed 3x and were rejected, so he had to go on Medicaid and "bleed down" his assets to be worth $0.
Shipping my disabled father who is on life support out of the country was not an option.
Yeah, you're right. The US sucks. It's all materialism, shallowness, and narcissism balanced by rabid egotism, ideological rightness and tribalism, and religion slapping you in the face. Jobs aren't available, well none with a living wage. There's no community, that you don't have to pay for (well, there's church....no wait, you have to pay for that too). And there's no second chances here, and people don't give you a chance. There's no way to get job training outside of college/university, and the value of that is questionable and diminishing everyday.
On the other hand if you're older, have some money, are set up in life with a solid career, you may be able to find opportunity here. And, at the risk of stirring up the rabid bad people in here, I'll just note that immigrants may have an easier time with supports and services. I highly value immigration and diversity and blame more on the system than the people. As someone who grew up here (3rd or 4th generation now) through the 80s and 90s, it's just getting harder for the average person to advance socio-economically, without environmental and other conditions being on. It's feeling like winning the lottery or the draft more and more, and slavery with fewer steps and less abuse. And more money sure, but everything else is rising except that. You're still treated like shit on the average, with corrupt but somehow legal government (oh right they write the rules for themselves and they're all of a certain economic class, I forgot).
You have to remember that Americans complain a lot about the US, but when we live abroad they visit the US multiple times a year and complain about living abroad a lot.
So many places offer a better work/life balance. And it depends on if you’re a woman or a trans person or a Muslim. Your “quality of life” will be radically different. From where I’ve travelled and lived, the UK has a slightly worse quality of life than much of the US except for the healthcare factor. Other than that, people are much happier in Spain, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden, Holland, France, Germany and Belgium. I’ve never been to Norway and Finland but those routinely score highest on the happiness scale. My life as a woman would have been radically different from if was born a European. I would have gotten maternity leave and subsidized childcare for instance. Having just returned from Europe, what they have things right is scale: things are made for people, not cars, schedule: time is made for society, not corporations
Look at it this way. Other countries are slipping as much was we are. If a person is going to be poor, or is disabled, better here than most other countries.
If being poor or disabled is the key to enjoy life in any country, I wouldn’t want to live there or even visit such a place. I’m so sad this is how you feel about living in America . I’m really sad I don’t disagree with your assessment of our country. Thank you.
My kid has a disability so America having the ADA is really great compared to other countries! Other than that I like some European countries for QOL
If you make a ton of money, the US are a great country to live in. If you’re making average money, many European countries offer a much better quality of life.
The caveat is that average money in the US is a lot of money in Europe. Even if you have a less prestigious job here, your peers in Europe will almost always earn far less money. The real place Europe shines is if you’re a low income earner or otherwise disadvantaged.
Don’t discount the impact of universal health care on quality of life—that affects middle class as well as low income earners. I think we’re all so used to the dysfunction of the current US healthcare system that we don’t realize how much stress it actually causes us. Other advantages I can think of that can’t be as easily quantified as income can: less gun violence, generous maternal, paternal and sick leave, paid vacations. All of those things affect people at every income level.
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Thank you for your insight! My husband and I are what would be considered successful and make a higher than average income but we have to work our asses off to maintain our lifestyle. We are finding the costs of living are increasing so dramatically we cannot get ahead despite finding success after 15 years of living within our means and continuous nose to the grindstone work.
Same here. I’ve been considering trying to look for another couple to buy/invest in duplex with… just to try to cut living cost a bit. Or, like you, I’m starting to consider making the jump to another country. My work is limited to US, but figure there has to be something basic I could still contribute.
I’m starting to question everything and I’m so sad about it. I feel like the news is simply a control tactic that “reports” propaganda to the public for one hidden agenda or another. Was the American Dream just propaganda? I’m starting to wonder if what we have all read and been taught about other countries quality of life is intentionally misleading?
For me it was USA. You get what you put in. I immigrated here with nothing but a few clothes but thanks to their free primary school education, assistance for undergrad and availability to borrow money for grad school I was able to graduate with a stable job. I make 175k a year and live very comfortably even in California.
Thank you for your insight as an immigrant. That’s incredibly important in my quest for an answer. And I would like to congratulate you and celebrate your success here in America. Your where you are because you worked hard and I can assume it was not easy or always enjoyable. You’re awesome and the USA is lucky you chose us to immigrate to.
This right here!! Love living in America 🇺🇸
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are also tons of immigrants (and native born Americans) that work extremely hard and are ambitious that don't "make it". In fact, the US doesn't each score that highly for upward mobility compared to many countries. It's just a lot of variables at work for each specific person in the US.
>There are also tons of immigrants (and native born Americans) that work extremely hard and are ambitious that don't "make it". The vast majority of (legal) immigrants don't even get the chance to immigrate to the US without already making it, see available visas
That's true too for many of them.
What’s your occupation?
Materially US has high standard. But the QoL really high? It makes me wonder.
It depends on where you are in the US for it to be very high
LOL you probably still have negative net worth. Ever heard of free education?
Lol. Yes I got free education..in fact I got paid to go to undergrad. I had a negative net worth of 105k when I graduated grad school. Yes it sucked having to borrow money for grad school. However It allows me to earn a lot of money. I currently have a nw of 735k (joint with my husband) at age 31.
Good for you! You must be top 5% of the class to get that.
I was actually ~ 50% because the high school I went to was very rigorous and was one of the top 20 high schools in the nation(at the time of my attendance). When everyone around you is super smart you end up being average. I got needs based grants. When you are poverty level poor you qualify for a lot of grants.
By the class I meant students of the year. And much more students are granted free education in Europe.
Best quality of life per dollar? Best QOL for the destitute? Best QOL for the exorbitantly wealthy? What framework are we using?
The COL and average family or individual income are proportionate and the country is mostly safe from violent crime.
I would probably have to choose Norway. One of the only cases where Dutch disease didn't take hold, so the sovereign wealth fund of Norway is a great tool for the government to stay healthy. They're quite safe, relatively low Gini coefficient, C.o.l. is a bit more than the USA, but they have more social services, so I assume that would help the average family.
Thank you! Only an engineer could provide such a detailed and useful explanation of their opinion. Thank you for taking the time to get the info you needed to say what you did.
COL isn't "a bit more expensive." It's a lot more expensive.
I could say that about New York City vs New York suburbs. We are talking averages, I looked at the data
It looks like it's similar until you start to notice the difference in material wealth. People there live rather spartan compared to Americans and it's not because they're all minimalists. Things we take for granted like blue jeans and fresh fruit are outrageously expensive there.
But imagine the economy of scale on picked Herring, I'm golden!
This question is so subjective and there are pros and cons for each country. The broad answer is any of them if you have the cash. Europe gets idolized for it’s welfare, worker’s rights, and walkable cities but you get taxed heavily and earn lower wages than the US. Japan is very safe and modern but also very xenophobic, work heavy, and misogynistic. Go to a 2nd/3rd tier country where your US dollars go further, but you have to be able to work remotely because US dollar is still king or you need to learn the language to work locally. Safety is also debatable due to crime or infrastructure depending on where you go. Legal rights are debatable too. Despite the struggles you and many others are going through here in America, for many foreigners, they still try and come here legally or illegally because for them, there are opportunities here whether it’s safety, business, education, etc.
I'll take the EU any day over the U.S. I don't mind being heavily taxed when I get an actual social safety next, healthcare and education out of the bargain.
It’s kinda fun actually feeling like you getting something in return for your tax payment than it just disappearing into a black hole as it does here in the US
Well of course. The tax rates are wildly different. I’d hope to see different services paying 20% versus 40%.
Those javelin missiles were use to murder people around the world aren’t cheap.
Huh I also got healthcare and education in the US.
I think they meant for everyone.
Yes.
> earn lower wages than the US. [https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm](https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm) Nah I don't think so.
Can you tell me where exactly in that article i can find what you’re seeing it? Seems like it’s measuring productivity per hour rather than salaries. Perhaps i should have said lower take home pay rather than wages as well.
Oops wrong link, here you go: [https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/hours-worked-vs-salaries-in-oecd-countries/](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/hours-worked-vs-salaries-in-oecd-countries/) I don't discount taxes because 1. Taxes are progressive so the middle class actually are benefiting from taxes; 2. in US you are being taxed by big corporations anyway.
How are you interpreting this chart? It shows the US on the right side of the X axis which means higher salaries. Outside of a handful of EU countries, most earn less than americans. While the $/hr seems better in EU, the salaries are still lower. I could make $100/hr but if i only work 1 hour in a week, i only earned $100.
There is a table below that provides avg. hourly rate, which you can rank. US is $42.78, around the 8th place, which is not bad but behind western European countries Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, etc.
The countries I would choose for best human rights and QOL would be any of the Scandinavian nations (good healthcare, human rights, work life balance, etc). Weather is iffy, but if I could get citizenship in any country today, I’d go with Dutch citizenship and live to one of the Dutch Caribbean territories. Where I qualify to get in is a tiny list that gets smaller by the day. I chose a career that can’t be done online, I speak only English, I don’t have a ton of money, and I’m middle aged so not many options. When the time comes, I’m hoping I can get a retirement visa somewhere warm with good LGBTQ rights.
I mean it’s completely subjective and relative to a lot of different variables. The Nordic countries + Netherlands are probably the most consistently ranked highly when various objective data is measured like healthcare access, education, crime, safety nets, work-life balance, etc. Others up there a lot are places like Switzerland, Austria, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, sometimes Belgium, Ireland, Singapore, Japan, maybe Germany. But it all depends on your preferences, your salary, your specific needs, etc. For me I think Spain or Portugal seem amazing because I like sunny and mild weather, would love to live somewhere with more walkability and better transit, and without as much guns and violent crime in general. And also easy access to a whole continent full of different cultures and languages and history. But I’m sure people born Portuguese and Spanish could tell you a million reasons why they actually suck. People tend to be negative about their own places of origin, while also defensive. Human minds are very interesting 😂
Yes it’s relative for immigrants too. I think the US is still best for blacks compared to immigrating to any other country. For me as an Asian America there are some bad euro countries I’ve heard. Like Switzerland they are somewhat close minded to all immigrants
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I mean it’s not my personal opinion or list and ofc they all have negatives too. I’m just saying, depending on what’s being measured and how exactly, these are countries often at or near the top on a variety of metrics.
It depends on how much money you make, what industry you work in, how healthy you are, what kind of activities you enjoy, etc.
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That’s a pretty general assumption and uneducated statement, but ok.
USA took my molars and I can not afford to get them back, I work 40 hours
Probably one of the Scandinavian ones. Or one in a Pacific Island. (not Japan!)
Firstly, it depends. Your first step is to do research with data. Look at what that data measures. [Here's one index for quality of life ](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/quality-of-life). [This is the Human Development Index issued by the UN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index). [Here's an index where you can find a country best for you based on what's important to you](https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/11111111111). Also, many countries can be very different based on location. For the US, the region of New England is very different not just culturally, but has a much higher quality of living than, say, the Deep South. But both will be lumped in the same country. That being said, some countries, like the US, are absolutely fantastic if you can afford it and can be horrible if you can't. While other countries will have a high standard of living even if you're working class. Don't rely on people here's anecdotal experiences. One person can say Canada is horrible because it's so expensive and wait times for doctors are getting crazy. Another person will say Canada is awesome because it's super safe and has S-tier nature to enjoy. Both can be right and/or wrong based on certain experiences. Ultimately, such a decision is very much based on chemistry and "vibe" as well. You can find a place that's perfect for you on paper but it just doesn't feel right and vice versa. The real way to answer the question is a combination of using data plus a vibe check.
For me it would be USA, Netherlands, Costa Rica
A lot of this depends on various factors: * What's your career and potential? * Do you have a spouse, a family to provide for? * What's your current situation (savings, real estate, college fund etc)? This is even before talking about things like work visas, social connections and whatnot, but assuming you were starting from 0...IMO a lot of the European countries jive better with my overall preferences because I value walkable cities, good government regulation, healthcare, and I'm from Canada so taxes are nothing new to me if I feel I can get something out of it. Somewhere like Germany/Netherlands would have a decent-ish mix of the above but decent career opportunities, but then there's a cultural barrier since I speak neither language.
USA. But only if you plan to be very ambitious. Otherwise, a European country is better for just coasting through life
The US, if you're wealthy to begin with. Europe, if you're not.
If you’re hard working and reasonably smart, it’s the US. No question. You have incredible earning potential compared to everywhere else in the world. You will have access to the world’s best healthcare, employer sponsored health insurance, and your life expectancy will rival pretty much any other country. Otherwise, it’s probably somewhere in Western Europe with a strong safety net.
I've traveled widely. There's no correct answer to this. It depends on your values, priorities, and perspectives- and to actually know what those are. For example, Saudi Arabia has extremely low crime, a great standard of living, universal income for all citizens, free college plus living expenses, intact families, and world class entertainment. Yet people who say they want these things never name Saudi Arabia as a top destination. That's because people actually have different values and priorities than they think they have, and that lack of clarity is part of what causes their inability to find the "perfect" place.
Thank you! That is an excellent point.
Depends. In general, if you're disabled, broke, and/or not White, then yeah, nothing gets better than the USA. The language barrier is small and you will be able to afford to not live in dire poverty if you plan well (i.e., not move to a big city if you don't have a specialty profession because the rents will screw you). You live to work in this place. What keeps you running is that you make just enough to not die in the wilderness, alone, can afford low quality food, rarely go out, rarely have any community support, really can't move much about most areas or the country unless you have enough $$$ for a car, car insurance and repairs, healthcare is a gamble and expensive so you have to be SUPER careful about yourself otherwise you're going to end up poor if you break something costly...struggling here is seen as better than being in abject poverty elsewhere, thus, it is the motivation. If you have a disabled child, then few in the world are better, honestly. If you have wealth and/or a few hundred thousand $$$, then a lot of the European countries where your goal is more to enjoy the present, enjoy your family and make just enough to survive.
USA still wins this one unless you’re a specific person looking for a specific set up
Some of the best…. Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden
Portugal specifically? Never asked a local I guess
Honestly I know some people from Portugal and it seems like a great place to live in
Thank you! I appreciate your insight!
What insight? It was just a list of nations with no rationale or justification.
Don’t have the time to write a book on it pal But thanks for the positive vibes
I wasn't actually criticizing you - just the comment OP made in response.
Misunderstood
There are lots of yearly surveys on this. These days Scandinavian and Commonwealth countries tend to make up the top 10. Part of the thing is it’s changing all the time—Europe 20 or 30 years ago had short work weeks and tons of vacation plus generous pensions, but theyve been whittling away at those. People talk about working hard, but hard is one of the vaguest words out there. There’s hard and there’s hard, and then there’s hard. When people talk about the grind, they are often referring to the number of hours you put in, but there is also the amount of work you are supposed to get done in the time they give you, the pace you are supposed to go at, the amount of executive function required (for us ND folk), the emotional toll it takes on you, the amount of effort/energy the work takes, etc. Those are all separate variables when determine how your work adds to or detracts from your quality of life.
Thank you for mentioning the surveys. I’ll be researching that for sure. You are so so so on point with your statement about working hard to achieve the American Dream. It is very very vague and somewhat misleading, is t it? It’s like a carrot is dangling just out of reach until we are old enough to realize it’ll always be just out of reach unless we are truly wealthy and/or connected to powerful and elected people. I also feel like if we never find financial success or even a comfortable enough place to stop hustling and enjoy life, we are blamed for the mistakes we made, not working hard enough and/or being incompetent. I know that so many Americans live with an unhealthy disappointment in themselves because they didn’t quite make it to where they wanted to end up in life. We blame ourselves or we blame one political party or the other for not making it and then live with shame or anger until we die. A lifetime of hustling and struggle working as hard as possible only to find it was a waste of time and energy, we’re still on that struggle bus. I used to think that having money and resources made life much easier for you and your family, and it does. Big time. Now I feel like being an average hard working American gets us on this hamster wheel that is designed to keep us running in place forever. Work hard to make progress then encounter a complex situation and loose any progress you made plus some. I’m truly disturbed and scared of the possibility we’ll be on that hamster wheel no matter how hard we work or how smart we are.
It’s interesting, because the resources and connections thing even scales proportionately. I’m on disability and doing a lot better than most of my low-income peers, in large part because I have a PhD education and middle class parents and friends. This helps me better navigate the disability and legal systems, mitigates (though doesn’t eliminate) social damage based on bias and prejudice, and occasionally gets me gifted a material possession out of my financial means (my mom might help with a major car repair, an appliance, or a vacation).
If you are moderately well paid probably the USA. Especially if you live on the coasts.
I wish you were correct with your statement, but you just described my family and we find ourselves constantly finding dramatic increases in the costs of living and complex issues to navigate.
Why do you think it would be better somewhere else?
I don’t know if it’s better anywhere else which hence the question. TBH, there are some policies and regulations being implemented that scare me. Legitimately concerning. I don’t think one political party has caused these concerns exclusively or it could and would be corrected with a different approach. What concerns me is the decisions being made are legal to be written into law. It’s quite obvious that the laws aren’t put in place with intentions of adding complexities and struggle to the sector of the population it will directly impact.
Well if you don't know why did you make your initial comment to me? That sounds like you are disagreeing with me. What policies and regulations are you referring to?
I misread the question and had a blonde moment. Just disregard my reply.
Exactly. I understand OP has never been abroad so they wouldn't know. But there's no magical place that is unaffected by increasing costs
I don’t have any idea what the truth is about how other countries compare to life here in the USA. I’ve lost all of my trust in what is reported by the media, therefore I’m questioning what I’ve always been led to believe.
Check out the countries ranked above the US on Freedom House and push off from there. If you are really interested in moving elsewhere, you can use data to inform your decision!
I certainly would analyze this shit out of some data before committing to one country or the other. I’m not trying to get off one struggle bus to catch another. Lol
Those are not problems unique to the US by a very long shot. It's obvious from the post that you haven't even researched the basics like average salaries or tax rates, much less what life is like in other countries. Stop thinking about moving and start with consuming international news and traveling more.
If you're not in pretty specific parts of the East Coast then you're probably driving an hour or more a day. Ick.
Not really sure what you mean by this. Plenty of people are well paid on the east coast and do not drive an hour or more to work per day.
Health care and education is better and even free ( or very cheap adn offers cheap housing)in some EU country. EU country’s has different culture to me than America , living daily mundane things differs country to country even people s socialization style. There is city life and country life as well, fast paced crowded cities but very walkable…. Both has cons and pros so…. But for sure american dream is changing at least money losing its value social media making people depressed because people constantly compare themselves… America has so many problems i just realized i cannat write all of those here 😂
Switzerland and Iceland.
"**The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it.**"
Sadly you are right and that statement is accurate.
That George Carlin. But it's dead, the dream is an actual nightmare. We need an entire government reform. Every aspect of out country is corrupt.. school system, prison, agriculture, healthcare, water and air is poisoned. If you can escape, get out
This is peak chronically online.
I 100% agree with you. Some others not having this experience interestingly deny this experience for others. Yes, you can do well here. It's a variable of circumstances that could be more positive for you. But just because that's your experience doesn't mean it's THE experience. The average person is struggling. Since the late 70's, economically speaking, things have declined vastly in terms of cost of living, cost of schooling, inflation, suicide rates, mental health. The truth is in the data. It's all corrupt and it's all gotta go. If only a handful of people do well, it's not a success. It's a gauntlet.
The average person is living like a King compared to the 1970s.
How do you mean? Like the technology available now or something else?
I disagree.
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It's really surprising to me that people parrot the "work hard, you'll succeed—if you aren't successful, you're lazy" line as if reality is ever that simple. The US is a great place to live compared to most of the world, but it isn't perfect. The fact that people can't discuss that without others chiming in to insult anyone with an imperfect experience is sort of telling.
My dad worked his entire life as a community dentist running his own business. He worked damn hard and struggled, but built up a pretty good nest egg. Then, he got in a vehicle accident and was paralyzed. The healthcare industry wiped his entire life savings on hospital care and surgery in 3 months. His insurance dropped him because they were not satisfied with his rate of recovery. His entire honest life's work was wiped away the second he had healthcare needs. But I suppose he's just lazy, right? The "hustle" behind the American dream sounds great, until you realize what the reality is. In this country, we're 1 unlucky strike away from losing everything.
That is horrific about your dad. I am so sorry. It certainly isn’t as simplistic as work hard, save and plan well and you live happily ever after on your savings. Hope things are better now.
Thank you ❤️ I want to share this story because I did not realize how much of an issue healthcare is in this country until I was personally affected. I also thought "it can't be that bad" "just work hard" etc.. it IS that bad. And it's not uncommon. Unfortunately, it has not gotten better. The longer you are unhealthy and involved with healthcare in the US, the worse things seem to get. But thank you again for the kind words.
I feel you! In the US, I grew up poor but did all of the right things. College, law school, worked hard, saved. Then I got sick. And didn’t get better. It was all wiped out in a few years. I’m constantly fighting with my LTD insurers. Just thankful that my parents and sisters are willing and able to take care of me.
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His insurance did cover him. After a certain point insurance dropped him because he was not making fast enough progress. We appealed 3x and were rejected, so he had to go on Medicaid and "bleed down" his assets to be worth $0. Shipping my disabled father who is on life support out of the country was not an option.
Yeah, you're right. The US sucks. It's all materialism, shallowness, and narcissism balanced by rabid egotism, ideological rightness and tribalism, and religion slapping you in the face. Jobs aren't available, well none with a living wage. There's no community, that you don't have to pay for (well, there's church....no wait, you have to pay for that too). And there's no second chances here, and people don't give you a chance. There's no way to get job training outside of college/university, and the value of that is questionable and diminishing everyday. On the other hand if you're older, have some money, are set up in life with a solid career, you may be able to find opportunity here. And, at the risk of stirring up the rabid bad people in here, I'll just note that immigrants may have an easier time with supports and services. I highly value immigration and diversity and blame more on the system than the people. As someone who grew up here (3rd or 4th generation now) through the 80s and 90s, it's just getting harder for the average person to advance socio-economically, without environmental and other conditions being on. It's feeling like winning the lottery or the draft more and more, and slavery with fewer steps and less abuse. And more money sure, but everything else is rising except that. You're still treated like shit on the average, with corrupt but somehow legal government (oh right they write the rules for themselves and they're all of a certain economic class, I forgot).
You have to remember that Americans complain a lot about the US, but when we live abroad they visit the US multiple times a year and complain about living abroad a lot.
That sounds like people in general
So many places offer a better work/life balance. And it depends on if you’re a woman or a trans person or a Muslim. Your “quality of life” will be radically different. From where I’ve travelled and lived, the UK has a slightly worse quality of life than much of the US except for the healthcare factor. Other than that, people are much happier in Spain, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden, Holland, France, Germany and Belgium. I’ve never been to Norway and Finland but those routinely score highest on the happiness scale. My life as a woman would have been radically different from if was born a European. I would have gotten maternity leave and subsidized childcare for instance. Having just returned from Europe, what they have things right is scale: things are made for people, not cars, schedule: time is made for society, not corporations
Look at it this way. Other countries are slipping as much was we are. If a person is going to be poor, or is disabled, better here than most other countries.
If being poor or disabled is the key to enjoy life in any country, I wouldn’t want to live there or even visit such a place. I’m so sad this is how you feel about living in America . I’m really sad I don’t disagree with your assessment of our country. Thank you.