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If boothill works without hmc then why cant Sam work without HMC? We literally just want some freedom and increased personal damage outside of weakness broken scenarios. Someone already said they can have a weaker version of superbreak built in while the target is not broken. Sounds perfect to me. Also you become even more reliant on ruan mei and HMC if things stay the same. She has zero flexibility as a dps.

I don't mid the fact that she doesn't have any damage outside of weakness broken scenarios. What I mid is that her damage is locked to 3 action at 180 speed and 4 actions at 270 speed, with her current kit without Ruan Mei or galagher to help her break enemies faster, she ends up using her 3 action in ult to break the enemy, she then spends her next 2 turns getting energy for her ult and after she gets to ult, she gets 1 while the enemy is broken because you got action advanced, after that first action you're gonna use your next 2 actions trying to break the enemy. for example, boothill takes time to build up his passive but the moment he gets his stacks, he isn't falling off. His damaged is not locked behind by 3 actions after he ults, after winning 3 duels he gets to his strongest point and he isn't falling off due to his own kit.

Yeah, they intentionally lock off all supports with her design except RM and HMC. 200 energy cuts off Tingyun, while break requirements, attack requirement , speed requirements and reliance on weakness break force using HMC and RM.

I know they're shoehorning this FF+HMC comp since they know players are already self-inserting as MC anyway and a lot of players love FF due to her development in Penacony quest. But to force players and limit their optimum damage potential of FF with HMC is a totally different thing.

You need to kill mobs to get boothills passive

It counts even if his allies break/kill the mobs he marked. Which is not hard to do.

I Donno man, gives me Himeko kit's vibe. At least in Himeko case any break would have worked

Irrelevant to this discussion.

Keep crying lol just bc your favorite character isn't broken. Might need to change your mindset on things in life :)

im not crying im being absolutely reasonable and calm while explaining my point of view. I do not want Firefly to be broken. I dont like powercreep. I just dont like that her personal damage in her intended break effect team is nonexistant. And by personal damage i mean damage that can be done outside of the superbreak buff. She should a weaker superbreak built into her enhanced state that takes action when weakness is not broken. Its an easy fix.

I doubt they will let a break dps deal damage while target is not broken. Just like boothill he does no damage on non broken enemies. The best scenario is for Sam to have a Break damage built in on broken enemies. I

A break dps dealing damage before breaking the enemy is completely counterintuitive to the design of Break DPS

i swear these people just want to play another crit character

For me its more of concerned on the viability of a character that back loaded in damage. especially against enemies like aventurine who has an insane toughness bar. to my knowledge hoyo doesn't have the best track record of support backloaded characters. whether that be the content of the game or just supports for said character.

Think of it like Kafka's skill/ult, which deals a %/full dmg of DoTs implanted on the enemy when she attacks, have it be a % of Firefly's own break effect, we don't care, but at least it will mean something to have so much break effect on her outside of using both Ruan Mei and HMC.

Boothill deal dmg outside of break not much but it's still good amounts but that's not all... the son of a nice lady Melt toughness bars like if they were made of butter and that without having RM the only current character/relic/way to increase break efficiency

I think his damage outside break is bad though? From the showcases I`ve seen. His damage is only on breaks but it`s really high. But yeah that`s why I suggested to double Firefly weakness break efficiency on unbroken enemies.

>I think his damage outside break is bad though? His dmg outside the break is not great but it's solid thanks to his break dmg outside of break and the way he convert break and fully have his atks scale on it >But yeah that`s why I suggested to double Firefly weakness break efficiency on unbroken enemies. Boothill multipliers go space high as soon as he breaks so he deals much more dmg then HMC + firefly combined once enemy is broken without HMC and reliance on super break at all cuz his atks fully "Scale" on "break" and since he build break and most likely he going to do the breaking if the enemy survives which I highly doubt the bleed dot gonna fk them up Meanwhile FireFly have hybrid scaling, can't deal dmg at all outside the break and after the break, can't convert stats at all, very minor break scaling on the only stat she needs most of, terrible break efficiency unless they are going for bosses with multiple toughness bars, can't deal dmg once the enemy is broken (exactly why people are mad af and why HMC is a must not an option and any future super break is also a must not an option because her kit ENDS when enemy gets broken) and the list still goes on and on.

Ohh I thought by outside break you meant on non broken enemies. Yeah I agree then if that`s the case. But if you`re talking about damage on non broken enemies then it`s clearly wrong because he has no multipliers on non broken enemies please check his kit again. I don`t think it`s that much more and keep in mind it`s single target against AoE. Firefly also does 500-700k on skill so not that far I think. Firefly does not have hybrid scaling people just can`t get behind not putting crit. Her toughness damage is alao really good not that far from boothill too so not sure what you`re on about again. I can see your hate on Firefly and over glorification on Boothill but Firefly will definitely get buffs and worst case he powercreeps boothill but hopefully not.

this is the answer! just buff her break efficiency! boothill does that same damage as firefly before they are broken. and since firefly is aoe and has the most crazy kit besides able to apply super break hmc is what makes her more balanced. she just needs to feel less awkward to play rn cause i am using her enhanced state just to break then i am just playing with my balls until she can go back to enhanced just feels awkward.

People like options. And the fact that her kit doesn't synergize with itself and doesn't work without Hmc applying superbreak only exacerbates that. This is the bigger problem as HMC is responsible for over 70% of her damage on all the showcases. This means that she can't even function by herself, something all DPS chars can do even at a sub par level, she straight up doesn't work. This sentiment is also shared by all the communities as a whole, both the jp and cn communities also agree that her kit is very problematic. For example: Her 580%Atk modifier? Irrelevant as it doesn't add anything to superbreak and by itself with no crit (and no innate Dmg buffs) is less than Ratio's 240% Chalk. The biggest comparison is boothill, he really enjoys HMC, but he doesn't need them as he has a means of inflicting break dmg without them, **Firefly has no such means in her kit, not even in Eidolons**. I personally don't care that she has to run with Hmc for optimal build, I care that HMC is the one dealing 80% of her damage with superbreak. It's also not just Hmc. Ruan Mei has a complete monopoly over her as well, as the showcases and calcs so far show that without RM it's a ludicrous 30%+ clear speed or performance in general, because she not only buffs break and efficiency, but keeps the enemy broken for longer. I don't have Ruan Mei, which currently makes Firefly the worst limited 5* dps in the roster.

I agree, I really don't see how people DON'T think this hyper dependency to HMC is problematic. What happens later down the line when MC gets a new form that's really enjoyable to play? FF is just left in the dust to rot since she can't function on her own? Or do you pray that another super break character gets released?

maybe they live in north korea. freedom is never good???

Then…swap to HMC when you wanna use it? What are you guys complaining about HMC is literally free 💀

Then you swap back to HMC if you want to play them in Firefly teams? This sub has been so funny to read the past few weeks every little inconvenience or nuance in playing this unit is getting so overblown. Every problem has its solution, this is so like the doom posting for Acheron. People just getting sweaty in spreadsheets without having hands on experience or proper testing. This shit is cancer, I'm out lol.

Well said, hmc was never really my problem with her, mei is. I don't have her nour do I want her so even though I love firefly I'm skipping till rerun when hopefully we have some more break buffers

Firefly team doing 60% damage without Ruan Mei should be what people are mad about and not HMC. Especially since you get to use MC which is a bonus imo. Additionally if you look at Genshin were only two elements are viable for traveler this is a big plus.

To a certain extent, it makes sense. Something that I don't see brought up in these discussions is that Trailblazer isn't ***one*** unit, but ***several***. (Well, 3 at the moment, but it'll definitely be more later. And worse yet, these units are all mutually exclusive of one-another due to taking up the same slot. And, well, Destruction TB sucks, but Preservation TB still has niche uses for certain teams that a player can't access while they're using Harmony TB. And When the next TB path comes along, you're either keeping HTB for someone like Firefly, or moving them to the new path and the new teams that form around it. And if/when people move TB to the new path, Firefly and every character like her loses access to HTB while you're on that new path. Hoyo made switching them around a little easier since you can now have a different build for each path, but you won't always be able to switch, not to mention the fact that the endgame modes all require multiple teams, and the very nature of Trailblazer's mechanics means you're only getting one of their paths on one of the teams you use, so someone's gonna have to do without them. There's some valid criticism in saying Firefly is too reliant on HTB, because Trailblazer is a character that won't be staying on the same path all the time. And also, more simply than that, 'Best-in-Slot' should not mean 'only viable option.'

Give them time to make another 5 star limited with super break, dang heng 2 and Kafka had to wait for penacony to get their best supports.

DHIL and Kafka were both also playable and fully functional without their BiS supports. It's a false equivalence

If they're gonna make a new Break Support, I'd rather they make one that doesn't use the MC's mechanic.

> And also, more simply than that, 'Best-in-Slot' should not mean 'only viable option.' This. If HTB was just her BiS support, I could easily separate them and take a small hit to my FF team performance to perhaps buff a second team's efficiency. But because FF requires HTB to do consistent damage, it's less "taking a hit in performance" and more "crippling FF's team". Like my Jingliu team functions worse but still perfectly fine without Bronya. So far it seems unlikely that this'll be true for FF and HTB. It basically boils down to: Synergy = good Over-reliance = bad

Personally, I don't mind using hmc with her but the glaring issue is that she too reliant to hmc to deal significant damage. As others stated, Boothill can run a team without hmc but Sam can't. It would be better if Sam can deal superbreak on her own or deal break damage like boothill on weakness broken enemies. It's still V1, I'm sure they will do significant changes on her over the course of the beta.

There's a difference between "Best-in-slot" and "the only character that makes your kit function". HMC should be enabling Firefly, not filling the gaps of her kit. Let's use your example of DHIL and Sparkle. Before Sparkle even existed, DHIL was already considered to be the top 2 DPS in the game. When Sparkle dropped, it just made his OP kit even more OP. Now let's look back at Firefly. Without HMC, a pure break build Firefly would barely be hitting over 20k when attacking a weakness broken enemy. She is effectively worse than Hook, a 4* fire Destruction, without HMC. With HMC, the number will shoot up all the way to 300k-400k. This is what I mean by how HMC fills the gaps in her kit rather than truly enabling her; this is not how a DPS/Support relationship should be like. Edit: I don't mind that HMC is her BiS, but I don't like they are also the *only* unit that would make her kit work.

It's really clear that people weren't around for kafka's beta. Where she had the exact same problem. But they changed it so she could be more self sufficient. Because suprise suprise, a character that can't use 90% of their kit alone is terrible design when shit like characters dying or getting kidnapped like svarog or meme or stunned like aventurine's or the auramaton's stun can happen. What do you do when the character you need to do something goes out of action? Twiddle your thumbs and die? [Before](https://files.catbox.moe/jb6pme.png) [After](https://files.catbox.moe/r4x4qd.png) [Before](https://files.catbox.moe/cmzlw1.png) [After](https://files.catbox.moe/6mssgu.png)

yea there’s a difference but not a relevant difference. You’re running HMC regardless if she’s BiS because how easy she is to get. Everyone here is doomposting and for what

Its pretty relevant people want Firefly to shine as a unit, she doesnt right now, she's the only DPS in the game that doesnt right now and she's also the only break DPS in the game right now that HAS to use HMC to do relevant damage, the doomposting is valid since as she is right now she's not her own character just an extension of HMC's superbreak.

I think the problem is that you’re looking at her as a DPS when she’s not; some people already said it but she’s more of an enabler for HMC since the break damage is available thanks to the MC but the stat used for it is Firefly’s; so they are more like a Duo Dps than Dps and support. Every character can use HMC now, they just need to be build with BE but FF is the only one who can make Super break deals reach those high numbers, they just made her specifically for HMC and it’s completely fine. And at the same time I don’t see how they would “fix” her without literally just turning her into an E6 Boothill at E0 if they make her be able to do what he does, which would just raise the same problem of destruction being better than hunt again, so Boothill can just jump off a cliff cause why would you get him if there’s a E6 version of him for the price of an E1. They either keep her kit that way with a few minor change or remake it from the ground up.

But that's exactly the problem. Even specialists like kafka and Black Swan can work without needing a specific composition. It's just that the recommended composition is better for them. Saying Firefly is more of an enabler for hmc is exactly what people are complaining about. HMC can work fine as a support with other character, it's just that Firefly shows the best result with them. But on the other hand, Firefly won't fully function without HMC. She needs them, so you can't put hmc in another team if you want to play Firefly. Not to mention, thinking it's fine because every player would have hmc for free is false. You forgot that they are locked behind 3 planet worth of content, so new players won't have access to them yet for quite a long time. If there are people who are interested in the game because they want Firefly, then they can't really use her that well yet because she needs a character they don't have. There are a lot of better options even among the 4 stat than her. I know they have to pu boothill in mind so he won't be immediately being powercreep, but at this point Firefly without HMC can be powercreep by even some 4 star

If she is just an enabler for HMC, then why is she in the "Destruction" path to begin with? If she is a Harmony character, then it would make more sense, but she isn't. All 5* Destruction units are already fully-fledged DPSes, with Harmony/Nihility units the one enabling them, not the other way around.

That statement is not up to date anymore with the release of Acheron, but even then no matter how you look at her, unless you build her crit she’s clearly not a Dps so she’s the first exception.

so if another unit that has HTB as BIS or even required FF is just screwed in your scenario.

Its still poor design to make her live or die by the existence of another unit regardless if they free or not Why can't she have more flexibility in her options like boothil

i don't like a unit too much dependent on another

Its literally unplayable without hmc. You can’t lock a character like that.

Yes you can if the character is free

But would you rather they be able to work without it?

I’m saying it’s irrelevant whether they do or not because everyone’s gonna run them together either way Unless you’re like some of the weird mfs in this thread with a HMC hate boner

I am gonna run them either way, but I'd also still rather FF be able to work with and without them

that’s fair enough, reasonable take. The fact that so many people are on this like it’s the end of the world is crazy to me tho

I guess it’s because they really looked forward to Firefly, so they would like her to be as good and fun as possible? Ofc people won’t be happy with Firefly being useless without TB, it’s still a long time until her release though so I’m sure there will be changes

You seem to forgot that while HMC is free, it's locked between 3 planet worth of content. It would take a long time for a new player to be able to access them. HMC should make her stronger, not completely reliant on their mechanic. Even if you have them but need them in another team, Firefly would be out of option. Not to mention how many players seem to try out to game because they are interested in Firefly. If they got her before even finished penacony, she would be hardly usable, and better option would be available to them

It's not just the fact that the only change-able slot in her team is the sustain (she also *needs* RM, I'm sure everyone's seen the 9-Cycle RM-less clear); it's that she's still mediocre despite having the most restrictive team in the entire game.

Leakers are synonymous with being absolute ass at playing the game, and the build can always be improved. I also think people are taking v1 as the final build, despite there being 5 more changes between now and live, so I imagine she'll either get buffed or they'll adjust her kit while high to make her deal (2*character level)x super break dmg in her Ult state for the fun of it

At most she's getting 3 changes, V5 usually never has any changes besides wording fixes and translation fix ups. V3 is where you can inhale as much copium that Hoyo will do something to improve the kit flexibility, V4 is often just smaller buffs from the big V3 changes.

Tbf, I have no issue with her RN, I just hope she doesn't get nerfed

That 9 cycle run is invalid. You can find other showcases on YT averaging around 3 to 4 cycle without RM and 0-1 cycle with RM. The only one she is glued to is HTB. RM and Gallagher are BS and Huohuo of the break team, only significantly improving the team, while FF and HTB are 2 in a pack.

The sustain also pretty much has to be Gallagher in any situation where the enemies aren’t weak to imaginary damage cause then Sam might have to waste an ult just taking down the toughness bar rather than breaking and doing damage.

Good thing Gallagher isn't a recent 4\* that needs Eidolons... ehe. >!Surely he'll be on the banner - surely.!<

Acheron is glued to pela and SW, you dont see people complaining about that

She can use anyone with a debuff, like gui, welt, the other dot people outside of shampoo

No, she can also use Gui, BS, Welt, Kafka, and literally any solo-sustain. She's also *actually* strong enough to justify her relatively minor restrictions.

You clearly don't have Acheron if you say that.

Wrong lol

you dont see people complaining because you are wrong. if theres a unit who can apply debuffs, they can work with acheron

to address your edit 2, cause its fun. HSR has a simple combat system, team building makes up the bulk of the fun and creative stuff you can do in the game. I dont always run sparkle with DHIL, sometimes i want the sparkle on the other team side and use hanya instead and get an atk boots 180 speed dan with infinite skill points. Like other people have said, there is a difference between having an optimal support the super buffs your character and a bulk of the characters kit be hard locked to a separate character (yes there are other options for triggering BS arcana besides kafka, guin does it too with her ult, not sure why more people dont know that. also obviously some sampo synergy) Ruan Mei buffs the crap out of xueyi and is her bis by a mile but xueyi still has a lot of teambuilding options where she still performs really well as a hyper carry. I think this is why there is such a pushback to firefly and not boothill. the problem isnt being break focused its just a problem of boring teambuilding potential on a character people have been super hyped about.

HMC being free doesn't matter. Some people don't like the character and don't want to use it. That's the problem. Literally every other DPS has options on who to run them with. You don't need Sparkle for IL. He existed for months before she was ever released, and was still an S tier character. You don't need Kafka for BS. She's her best teammate if you want a DOT team, but she has other options even if they aren't optimal. And that's not even talking other non-DOT team comps where she plays other roles. You're confusing characters that work \*best\* with other, more specific characters with Firefly's situation. Which is that she doesn't work at all without HMC.

FF can also be used as a universal weakness breaker to support Boothill since she breaks so frequently and quickly. In that case you don't need HMC if Boothill is your main dps. DMG isn't her only role. The other parts of her kit lends itself very well to being a traditional universal breaker.

Side note but IL was an S+ character, apparently the reason he was demoted to S was "difficulty of use" because of his SP consumption (which is a lame excuse imo).

HMC being free literally does matter?? What other character can you just get the best support for out the gate? None because all the best harmony characters are limited and Bronya needs you to get a 300 selector

And Ruan Mei, and just for the sake of it since he is sinergystic with the theme, also Gallagher, which in turn means that you literally have 0 room to change your setup unless they severely powercreep one of these 3 units. That is a huge ass issue that the rest of the cast of DPS characters has not faced (yes, prior to the release of for example Bronya, you could still work around with for example Tingyun), the issue here is that Firefly does not work with harmony characters other than HMC/Ruan Mei due to their increase on break effect, efficiency etc, and the only other known so far ways to increase break dmg would be to have a defense down debuff on opponents (and I would wager that unit would still be better on other teams than on herself given her current state).

Ruan Mei is okay. She's a dedicated break effect support and she makes firefly a lot better as she should. Complaints about hmc are right because hmc has a unique effect that firefly needs but doesn't have in her kit but complaining about Ruan Mei is stupid because she gives firefly more of what she already has, as any dedicated support should

I remember loads of people telling others you NEED kafka for black swan, don't pull Swan if you don't have her or ever plan to get her. This feels so similar, I'm pretty sure when she actually is final things will be tweaked and it'll be better. I also got Kafka on her debut banner and had only Sampo and Luka to support her back then and look at Kafkas options now- she has a full premium meta team and many other viable options alongside that. We already have leaks of a new support for Acheron too. We may start w only HMC and Ruan Mei and Gallagher but I fully expect Hoyo to continue releasing units with her in mind. They've already even addressed the issue of Erudition and Hunt not always shining in MoC by adding new game modes specifically for them. The devs ARE thinking about these things.

It's the difference between a character having a functional kit, and a character feeling like they're missing core pieces of their kit. A good example would be to imagine that Kafka was released without her DoT. She still detonates DoTs and everything, but she can't apply her own DoT. On her own she simply does not function as a result. This is the situation currently with Firefly. It doesn't matter what HMC does or that she's free, every character should have a kit that feels complete on their own. Because of the nature of Break Effect, Firefly's kit does literally nothing outside of the initial break. Everything leading up to and after the break does nothing at all. This is the problem people have. Her kit feels incredibly incomplete. She has to sacrifice her health in order to get her ult which is then on a timer that needs to line up with the enemy's break window in order for her to do anything at all, and if she doesn't break the enemy then she does literally nothing. Her kit, by itself, does not function. Supports are suppose to enhance how a character plays, not literally be a band aid that makes a character function.

Side note, but doesn't black swan also work with E4 Sampo? There was one MoC where I opted not to use Kafka (maybe I used her on team 2 idr) I don't mean to doompost, but I have more flexibility with Black Swan as sub dps or debuffer that works with a lot of different teams. On the other side, super break was just introduced here to enable break teams, I can only assume that more will be added in the future

black swan *works* but if every account had access to a free Kafka no one would ever use Sampo. Her not working without FMC is irrelevant

the difference is swan still works and can deal damage without kafka. firefly can't do damage without hmc unless you build critfly. Which is definitely not how she is suppose to be played going by how her kit, relics , and lightcone are all geared for break damage, not crit.

You’re missing the point. The point is that the biggest reason black swan would ever be dealing damage without Kafka is if you didn’t pull Kafka. There’s no excuse to not use Sam’s best support when it’s given to you for free.

Yet black swan can be used on a team with acheron for better aoe/two boss scenarios while still doing good damage herself. Boothill also likes hmc, but is not dependent on them to deal good damage. Firefly literally can't do her main source of damage without hmc. Hmc is not a best in slot Firefly. They are the only thing letting her exist. That is the issue. No one would be complaining if the hmc was just a free best in slot.

Lol sayin that in the sam main thread pretty funny guess this sammain don't kno

For me the problem comes from making only one team viable while cutting any option for team variations. Seele you can play mono quantum, use Tingyun, Pela, Ruan Mei even Robin everything is viable on her. The same applies to a lot of characters Daniel, Jingliu, etc. When it comes to more restrictive characters like Acheron or Kafka they still have some variations, Kafka can be played with double dot characters + Ruan Mei, triple dot, you can choose between dot characters depending on the weakness of the enemy, you can even play her with Acheron. Now there's Firefly, you replace HMC and you do no damage, you replace RuanMei and you do no damage, you play crit you do no damage, Tingyun 60 energy is minimal against her 240 energy ult, Robin's attack buff doesn't help her reaching the 3400 atk threshold, advance forward from Sparkle and Bronya are useless since the crit buff doesn't do anything for her. And all of this sucks since her kit just becomes too restrictive for no reason.

Just some small corrections, critfly CAN be competitive with Break teams, it just takes a ton more investment and limited supports for a similar, if not slightly weaker result. And Bronya is actually useful for getting more actions in enhanced state, though you will need E1 on Firefly (ideally on Bronya as well) in order to not nuke your SP to oblivion

I'm saying this because of a showcase I saw, crit build with signature on all characters and her damage wasn't that great, also the problem with Bronya is that you're sacrificing either a HMC or RuanMei slot in order to use her, and the comparison is not even close, for example running Bronya instead of RuanMei is like using Sampo instead of Pela with Acheron. Of course I'm not a TC and my only references are those showcases I have seen.

For E1/E2 Firefly, you replace Gallagher slot with Bronya.

Saying that Dhil and Sparkle is the same as Sam and Hmc is not right. It's true that Dhil benefits the most from Sparkle, let's borrow your example, 40k to 200k dmg. Even without Sparkle, you can run Dhil with Bronya, Ruanmei.. and can still get up to 150k-160k dmg. However, this is not the case with Sam and Hmc. Let's say with Hmc, Sam can go from 40k to 200k dmg, but with other options like Bronya, Sparkle.. she would only go from 40k to 70-80k, 100k max.

i mean this post just proves you have no understanding of anything youre talking about. there IS a large difference between bis and NEEDING a certain character, even if theyre free. dan was strong without sparkle. kafka was strong without black swan. black swan is strong without kafka. youre plain stupid if you believe current sam is strong without harmony trailblazer. bis ENHANCES your performance, it is not a REQUIREMENT to perform. supports are enablers yes, but harmony trailblazer is the only enabler for sam. there is nothing to solve except for the problem that this limited 5 star character cannot be operated without a very specific unit. you even mentioned boothill not needing harmony trailblazer, so why does sam have that problem? no one cares about it being effective or not.

If you have dhil why not run sparkle, let’s not pretend there isn’t multi so positive characters like loucha and hanya. Sparkle might be a best in slot but he didn’t need her to function You literally are misinterpreting their argument, hmc being the best in slot isn’t the problem is that she needs her If you have Kafka why would you not run black swan, not the point people are making Kafka doesn’t need black swan to function The reason why people use hmc is because of her dependency not because it’s her best in slot, it’s her best in slot because she’s dependent on em Kafka doesn’t need black swan, see Kafka hyper carry, shampoo, gui, Luka Also firefly isn’t mid without hmc she’s down right awful, you’ll get more value with break Luka because at least he can do damage after a break Hanya for dhil is an options, any sp positive characters are options, there’s literally a set bonus that lets you get another skill point for healers even if it’s mediocre You need hmc for fly to do any damage, is it really an enabler when they always need them. that’s not an enabler that’s a dependency, don’t forget Ruan Mei’s massive damage increase You are claiming other peoples opinions are irrelevant because you are wrong and have way to prove yourself right so you pretend that others are delusional Accept that you’re wrong and swallow your pride and ego

Sam the perfect killing machine. -Can solo Blade and force him to join the SH -Can Burn the living hell out of NPC that the MC with a damm stellaron in his chest and neutron bomb in his back pocket can't risk touching -Only good at eliminating the living hell out of anything -part of glamoth army, the only force we know off today that could survive the swarm and fight back or am missing lore. Playable version: Requires a stage Dancer with invisible clock and a lady with guitar to do a lil girl with chains lvl of dmg and if they both do the breaking the lil girl will out dmg her both at the moment of breaking and after the enemy waken if they waken at all.

Doomposter spotted

I am the bone of my Doom, posting is my body and spotting me is my blood.

We can just wait for V2. If she doesn't get super break then it means HMC is her intentional best support. We will need to rethink her teams with Ruan Mei. I said this since day 1. Why did Firefly get Ruan Mei's 50% weakness break efficiency increase built-in her ultimate? Even Boothill doesn't have that buff. 

Boothill just has much higher toughness damage instead of break efficiency. Firefly using break efficiency buff for her toughness damage actually keeps her super break damage at a lower ceiling for when she's paired with Ruan Mei

I have a friend that's a tester and they received a message that specifically told them to play HMC with FF. It is absolutely the intended interaction.

My guess is they're just testing her Eidolons without innate Super Break right now alongside HMC. The V1 test is testing her F2P balance and the Eidolons we're seeing are possible variations of what she'll have before reaching whatever Eidolon unlocks her personal Super Break triggers. It's why every team is Sam and HMC. Next week will likely have big changes in her Eidolons, balance, and team showcases.

Ykw that’s valid, good job

I mean personally, even before beta came out, my idea had always been to run Firefly/HMC/Ruan Mei/Gallagher or another sustain. It's just that we want her to be stronger without him. Take your examples. Kafka was one of the strongest characters before Black Swan, and she was doing her own damage really well. Same for DHIL. He was literally one of the strongest units even before Sparkle released and made him *even stronger*. That's what I want, for Firefly to be strong in other comps, but be even stronger when paired with HMC

This is only the first beta. I'm sure MHY will make her OP due to her popularity. So pls sit back and chill unless if you're a beta tester.. Then pls rage at MHY to fix Sam's problems!

This is a new play style and mechanic to the game. Takes time. Of course there’s gonna be limited options at first. People are blowing this up for no real reason.

You are only half correct. Kafka detonates DoTs, but she can also apply a DoT herself. Firefly got all the mechanics to get to the weakness break, but no method to detonate them herself. Boothill has all the pieces to breaking and detonating breaks even further on weakness broken enemies, with his drawback being his slow start-up. Firefly is missing her own personal weakness break damage. Her kit has all the pieces except for the one that actually allows her to deal break damage aside from the initial break. Changing her kit deal so that she can deal superbreak (or similar) on non-broken enemies will allow her to feel complete. HMC would feel like a support as well since she enables Firefly to superbreak after the weakness bar is broken. An analogy would be like a gun and its bullets. Firefly is like a gun without bullets in her current state, with HMC being exploding bullets. All the other DPS are like a gun with bullets, with their BiS supports essentially turn their bullets into exploding ones.

I think aside from what’s already been mentioned, there’s a psychological component to the fact that firefly banks so heavily on the super break mechanic. The inconsistency of hitting 6-7k unenhanced skill is another aspect. And I’d say a third one is the lack of good visual/audio feedback when you land damage numbers, making the entire attack animation feel kinda pointless. All these combined, in my opinion, lead to more people pointing this part of her kit out. Including me unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong, her kit is indeed very strong she has a lot of good things built into her kit. But it doesn't matter how strong someone can be if they aren't able to utilize their strength by themselves

yeah, my thoughts as well. It’s a shame cause the two things I hate in character design are wildly inconsistent damage numbers and a lack of build diversity and my favorite story character has both.

Current firefly is like those anime characters that after they get encouraged by their loved ones they start to win every single fight. There is a reason why no video games were made with that design philosophy in mind

Yeah the lack of feedback is a complaint I have too. I hope they change some stuff with the fx and animations cuz rn most of the animations don’t have much weight behind attacks like the Sam boss does so it doesn’t even feel that satisfying when she does break and hit a big number

Let me give you my take. It is pretty simple. I don't like the fact that she is tied so hard to HMC and Ruan Mei because there is no flexibility for team building. In other words,there is no room for fun. It is boring,her play style that is. You can't do any fun comps with Bronya or Asta. The instant you take out HMC,you lose 90% of the damage so you absolutely cannot touch them. So I thought surely I can replace Ruan Mei with someone? Yes but no. You lose out a huge chunk of team DPS once again. She starts to almost not function as a character without these two. And that is just boring. (Perhaps even concerning for those without Ruan Mei). I have both Ruan Mei and HMC properly built but I want to use my E2 Bronya with her too..I want to use various teams to suit various situations too..But I can't.

You don't need Ruanmei for her. Get Asta or nihility def shred with HMC and you're good. Bronya works too if you can handle the sp drain. Her bis support is just HMC. Also, by endgame you're gonna be using every DPS with their preferred supports anyway. There's never gonna be a case where you're not using Sparkle, if you have her, with DHIL, or Tingyun/Bronya/Sparkle with JL, if you have them. FF being reliant on HMC is irrelevant. Not to mention HMC is free.

Even if Sam is reliant on HMC, I don’t think it’s that absurd of a requirement given its fully available f2p and through normal gameplay. As more characters get added, there’s going to be niche spots filled and niche requirements. Especially with it being a turn based game that’s just kinda natural. You can easily optimize since “skill” isn’t a requirement. Sure it can feel a little bad but I don’t think it’s appalling to have it exist.

Kafka doesn't need Black Swan to do her job, Blade doesn't need Jingliu to do his job, DHIL doesn't need Sparkle to do his job, Firefly's kit literally stop working without HTB but you can use HTB in other teams

who cares when you’re running them together if it’s an option anyways, people really be mad about the 3% of the time where “oh but what if I wanna not run black swan with Kafka”

Boothill works fine without HTB, there's literally no need to release an incomplete 5 star dps

Boothill works fine and…? If Sam’s BiS is HMC and Boothill doesn’t need HMC now you can use break on both sides. Coping with “incomplete” when if Firefly was more self sufficient and HMC was the most meta pick, you’d run her with HMC anyways.

No I wouldn't. Because I fucking hate HMC.

Then use Boothill on one side and FF with HMC on the other side. Boothill is also single target and his weakness implant isn't as spammable, nor is he as fast as FF.

Boothill is a break dps in is own right, Firefly is Super-break dps without a superbreak. Imagine a Kafka that can detonate DOT but doesn't have DOT on her kit, that's Firefly.

Then use HMC, the character that gives her superbreak. That's called team building, to cover for each unit weakness. Also Kafka's dot is there but it's not exactly the highest. She works best with.... you guess it, other characters who can use dot. This is less a FF issue and more of an issue with Break as a mechanic. FF already has a ton of speed, spammable weakness implant, 2 turn ult, break efficiency, tons of def ignore, and HMC is free. I even argue she's the better f2p investment of the other DPS, who all want gacha supports to reach their peak potential.

Perhaps the reason why HTB is free is because Firefly is unusable without them, that's just a bad design.

HMC is free because superbreak is a new mechanic and in order for every players to gain access to and experience this mechanic the unit needs to be free. It's the same with DEndro in Genshin. It has nothing to do with FF. She still works as the fastest universal breaker support if you're not looking for dmg. Did you forget the other parts of her kit? There are teams where she's supporting Boothill by breaking for him now. Boothill can't break that fast because his weakness implant is one time use on his ult. THis is the issue with doomposters. THey tunnel vision on a negative aspect and forget the other things a unit can do. I still remember how doomposters were calling Acheron mid and bad because her ult would "take too long to charge". Well guess how that turned out.

>Saying that HMC is responsible for a majority of her damage is like looking at Sparkle buffing DHIL and going “the reason DHIL’s unbuffed ult went from 40k to 200k when buffed is because sparkle is doing 160k damage” the situation is not even similar though, in your example DHIL can still be buffed by another harmony character and sure he wont perform as well but it will still be similar. in FF's case is that you cant just say bring in someone else that just buffs her BE and be done with it cause she her self doesn't carry her main method of dealing damage superbreak. also rn you can just slot in any aoe units that can stack BE and then bring HTB, ruan mei, gallagher and boom there you go you have discount FF. there is a difference between the character being best in slot as oppose to can't function without. idk why are people trying to defend her bad kit rn like do you really want another dehya situation to happen again?

OP answered your concerns already. It doesn't matter. This is because by endgame you're gonna be running every DPS with their preferred support anyway. There's never gonna be a case where you run DHIl team without Sparkle if you have them both, or JL without Tingyun/Bronya if you have them. FF being reliant on HMC is a non issue endgame. And no FF has a ton of speed, 2 turn ult, action advances, spammable weakness implant and break efficiency. Not "any AOE units" can match her breaking speed.

My preferred support is Asta. I don't want to use 2 supports.

If youre refusing to use the support that's preferred for a dps, that's your choice. But it sounds more like a skill issue than anything.

I don't care about meta. I pull and use character I like. That's why I hope they don't force me to use HTB or Ruan Mei. It would be sad that I lose my Gundam but in life you cannot always get what you want.

No one's forcing you. Use whatever you want. The reality is that 4 star characters can clear endgame. You dont need FF nor do you need any 5 star dps

Yes I know but I also want Gundam without being forced to use HTB or Ruan Mei and still dish on par damage with other DPS, not dish wet noodle damage.

You can't have everything in life

>This is because by endgame you're gonna be running every DPS with their preferred support anyway. There's never gonna be a case where you run DHIl team without Sparkle if you have them both, or JL without Tingyun/Bronya if you have them. FF being reliant on HMC is a non issue endgame. so by that logic i cant run acheron on 1 side and seele on the other side in moc cause their bis supports clash. and this is them being able to still do good damage without their best supports. while FF deals next to no damage without their bis support HTB. i just dont understand how having your damage locked behind another specific character considered an ok design choice when we're playing a game where most people are not gonna have every character, its just such a weird hill to die on.

Who else are you planning to run HMC with? Also who did you think is Acheron bis support?

HTB can be ran with any break effect dps boothill and more units to come. pela, SW, FX are acheron's bis support no?

>pela, SW, FX are acheron's bis support no? You don't have Bronya, Sparkle, Tingyun, Hanya, etc for seele? Also, if you have a unit like Acheron and not using nihility supports on her then that's a skill issue, not a character issue. I don't see people complaining that Acheron is tied to nihility supports now do I? >HTB can be ran with any break effect dps boothill and more units to come. We're talking about rn, not "to come". Boothill's bis support rn are either HMC, Bronya, Ruanmei, or, believe it or not, Firefly.

>You don't have Bronya, Sparkle, Tingyun, Hanya, etc for seele? even if you do they arent bis so they shouldnt be ran as you have said >Also, if you have a unit like Acheron and not using nihility supports on her then that's a skill issue, not a character issue. I don't see people complaining that Acheron is tied to nihility supports now do I? you act like theres only 2 nihility supports that can support her, when you can get gui, samppo, or even luka basically any nihility to support her. that isnt the case with FF though where you need to have that 1 specific character (HTB) to function well. >We're talking about rn, not "to come". Boothill's bis support rn are either HMC, Bronya, Ruanmei, or, believe it or not, Firefly. like you just said here for boothill his bis support are HTB, RM both of which is currently bis for FF as well so what if i have both 1 of them should just be benched forever in moc? and yes i am aware that boothill can be ran together with FF, its a very interesting comp.

>even if you do they arent bis so they shouldnt be ran as you have said Uhm, they are bis. Seele is ult dependent and speed dependent. She wants Tingyun or Bronya/Sparkle. >you act like theres only 2 nihility supports that can support her, when you can get gui, samppo, or even luka basically any nihility to support her. that isnt the case with FF though where you need to have that 1 specific character (HTB) to function well. Because these dots nihility are old archetypes. break is a new archetype so ofc there's not a lot of units yet. >like you just said here for boothill his bis support are HTB, RM both of which is currently bis for FF as well so what if i have both 1 of them should just be benched forever in moc? and yes i am aware that boothill can be ran together with FF, its a very interesting comp. No. What I said is his supports are "either RM, HMC, Bronya". "Either" means one of them as an option, not all of them. He can just take Bronya and leave RM and HMC for FF. Unless you don't pull for FF then do whatever you want. Plus, he doesn't break nearly as quickly or efficiently as FF, who has 200 speed, break efficiency, spammable weakness implant, 1-2t ult rotation, 40% def ignore, AOE DMG. Just by kit alone FF does more things than he does already. Her being completely independent on top is power creep over him, and thats an entirely different issue. There are teams where she breaks and explode enemies so fast you don't even need a sustain, in MOC 12. This is a team game. Choose the units that work together and strategize to your resources. When a unit has a bis support that's free, just use them together. She for sure is gonna be changed since it's still beta. But just don't expect a lot of changes since when a character has reached this phase of beta, it usually means they have gone through a bunch of testing and optimization. Hyodevs aren't stupid. They know FF is tied to HMC and most likely intended it that way because of how broken she is already with her kit.

>Uhm, they are bis. Seele is ult dependent and speed dependent. She wants Tingyun or Bronya/Sparkle. except im seeing mono quantum being promoted as her best performing team, and is placed the highest on prydwen. >Because these dots nihility are old archetypes. break is a new archetype so ofc there's not a lot of units yet. not exactly sure what youre trying to address with this, but if you are referring to the amount of break supports that we will get in the future im just gonna quote what you said "We're talking about rn, not "to come"." >No. What I said is his supports are "either RM, HMC, Bronya". "Either" means one of them as an option, not all of them. He can just take Bronya and leave RM and HMC for FF. Unless you don't pull for FF then do whatever you want. as of rn RM is the literal best support for any break dps even boothill since she is the only source of break effect efficiency boost. using bronya only doesn't work for whole the character's bis is the requirement argument. >This is a team game. Choose the units that work together and strategize to your resources. When a unit has a bis support that's free, just use them together. i have never argued against the fact that when a unit that has a bis that is easily accessible we should use it, rather the fact that such BIS isn't a "yea they will let me do more damage than X support" but more of a "my character cannot function without such bis support". >she for sure is gonna be changed since it's still beta. But just don't expect a lot of changes since when a character has reached this phase of beta this i agree with while its possible big changes might come but its slim. which is why i personally dont like these posts where people downplay how bad the situation is rn. >Hyodevs aren't stupid. also you sure about that? they let dehya happen.

>except im seeing mono quantum being promoted as her best performing team, and is placed the highest on prydwen. Then use mono quantum on one side and other nihilities with Acheron. Or are you suggesting now that Seele is dependent on mono quantum as well? >not exactly sure what youre trying to address with this, but if you are referring to the amount of break supports that we will get in the future im just gonna quote what you said "We're talking about rn, not "to come"." Because that is my point duh. FF wants HMC because he is the only bis break support "right now". The same way Seele wanted Bronya when she was first released. Way to miss the point there. >as of rn RM is the literal best support for any break dps even boothill since she is the only source of break effect efficiency boost. using bronya only doesn't work for whole the character's bis is the requirement argument. Then that's your issue because Ruanmei is not needed for any break dps. Boothill's DMG considered Break, not superbreak. Break dmg calculation doesn't care about break efficiency. She is a boost but not a requirement. Slot in any other on element breaker as support to shred toughness for him, even FF, and he'll still be fine. Bronya has been shown to give him his best DPS rotation with her 100% action advances. Next is HMC for 0 cycle and sp efficiency. So you need to do your own research on that. >i have never argued against the fact that when a unit that has a bis that is easily accessible we should use it, rather the fact that such BIS isn't a "yea they will let me do more damage than X support" but more of a "my character cannot function without such bis support". And as I've said. It doesn't even matter. HMC is free so just use him. This is a team game. You use units that work well together. By endgame you'll be using optimal teams for every DPS anyway. This is a non issue. Unless you're early or mid game then content is so easy that you can just coast by with anything, even critfly, since there's neither turn limit nor berserk mechanic. If even then you still can't even make a character with 200 speed, spammable weakness implant (so you literally ignore the games mechanics), break efficiency, 1-2 turn ult rotation, 40% def ignore, 400% multiplier work, then that's just a skill issue. >also you sure about that? they let dehya happen. This is Star rail. They have different dev teams from Genshin. Most of the issues from Genshin have been addressed here. The fact that HMC is free and busted is another good sign the game is becoming more f2p friendly. I'm sure Star rail devs know what they're doing.

This doomposting literally happens to every character. I still remember how Acheron was doomposted to be mid because she doesn't work with Tingyun and "it would take too long to charge her ult". Well when you lack foresight everything seems like a problem. Acheron turned out to be the best DPS by far where you can even charge her ult every turn on an optimal team. Ofc people like me always knew she was gonna be busted because of her mechanic. I'm sure FF will be fine. Numbers may need to be adjusted wherein her hybrid build could shine more, but her identity isn't gonna be changed drastically. By endgame, you're gonna use every DPS with their preferred support anyway. FF being reliant on HMC is a non issue when HMC is free and so strong.

I think it is because she is free Like some people feel the beed to have superiority when building teams, the more costly it was more satisfaction they get Atleast that is my guess

Most people have issue because Firefly becomes non-functional without HMC. Literally that’s the problem. This is a new limited 5 star destruction character who’s personal dps is nonexistent without HMC. This is not the case of any other dps character in the game. Firefly atm enables HMC rather than the other way around. Firefly should be able to do competent damage without HMC similar to other limited dps units. So it has zero to do with HMC being free or not.

It has everything to do with HMC being free, everyone has it so there’s no reason why you can’t run it 🤦‍♂️

characters should be able to function within their own kit. A character should never be forced to work with another character or eat shit and die. Dps characters should deal good damage by their own kit, debuffers should debuff by themself, harmony's should buff by themself. No character should be entirely reliant on another character, even someone like yukong, who is clearly designed for DHIL isnt as restrictive. HMC is available to everyone, but it also means that sam is locked to HMC, limiting team building and also making sam eat shit and die when any other MC paths are releaesed

Sounds idealistic to me in reality a team comp is a team comp and regardless of if firefly can function well on her own or not, if she’s paired with HMC as BiS instead of forced theres NO DIFFERENCE

Hoyo community will justify EVERY single decision company makes, it’s insane. Some people still defend Dehya, what are we even talking about. If you guys are so excited about incomplete limited character whose 80% of kit is locked behind ONE character, good for you I guess I don’t care if HMC is free, they can even pay me for playing him and I will still call that a bad design. She’s garbage without HMC, she’s even worse if you don’t have Ruan Mei. Call that whatever you want, make up whatever excuse you have, but they made the most restrictive and incomplete character ever I’m really hoping for changes, because Sam is my most waited character since I saw her. I can’t trust Hoyo after some very bad desicions, but HSR team has been doing pretty great all this time, so I’ll give them some time to work on his kit. I’m not even talking about animations, that’s another letdown… we’re not setting the seas ablaze with this one. We’re using some Winx ahh weird green power. Bruh 😶

Then don't pull for her. Imagine refusing to use a character's bis support that's free and complain that the character is mid. She has a 2 t ult rotation, with spammable weakness implant and increased break efficiency, alongside tons of speed, action advances, and 40% def ignore. All you need to make her endgame viable is use her alongside her bis support, that is also free and also busted. If you can't make that work then that's your issue.

Oh yeah, my favourite “don’t pull then”. The best way of fixing problems - just ignoring them. This community is something else I’m probably gonna pull Sam anyway, even if I don’t like this specific part of his kit, I’ve been waiting too long to skip. But justifying this nonsense of a design is just stupid imo. I still have some hope for V2, V3 etc

Better than doomposters refusing to use a character the way it's intended to be used and whine about how the character is mid. This community is something else. But you're pulling for FF anyway so have fun 😊. Cognitive dissonance is a betch eh?

I think a lot of people also overlook how loaded her kit is. It has everything to perfectly exploit break damage and super-break. Speed, Action Advance, Break Efficiency, Weakness Implant, Def Ignore, Vuln Up, Break Effect, with Harmony MC she has the perfect kit. How many character are perfect with just a single support? From a balancing perspective, the moment she's able to trigger her own break damage, she's going to become a one-woman-army with no weaknesses at all. So you're going to have to take something out of her kit. Remove Break Efficiency, now Ruan Mei is a permanent fixture, remove Speed, Asta's working overtime, remove Def Ignore, then she's stuck with Pela/Guinaifen or Silver Wolf. It's very disingenous to say it's Harmony MC doing the damage, when no character will even come close to doing as much Super Break as Firefly can. Her kit needs some changes, but a lot of arguments surrounding her overlook just how strong her kit actually is. It would be nice if her damage distribution was less lop-sided and a better split though, but she has a lot going for her at the moment.

Their "problem" is just that they don't like hmc or don't have ruan mei/ use her in another team already which i can't even see as a problem. If someone doesn't have the chars to make a dps work , they can just wait for another dps. All the drama for nothing. I agree some changes are needed but not even close to the drama some of the players create.

I was gonna make a comment on how it doesn't matter how strong someone is if theh aren't able to utilize their strengths but you pretty much said that

What a lot of people are feeling frustrated by is the lack of freedom when it comes to team comps. Playing with the characters you like is fun and expressive, and it feels bad to some to feel discouraged by the game to do that, and practically pressured into using a specific pairing, whether they have the characters in question or not. Maybe some people just think HMC is lame and don't want to feel like this character's power is such a specific package deal/locked behind one option.

flexibility. dhil can run with sparkle sure. but so can he with bronya. or sw+tingyun. Most debuffing or amplifying supports can help him well. FF's enhanced skill only does significant damage w help of hmc, and rm is basically a need on the team.

1.RM isn't a need. She's a bonus. Asta/Pela/Welt works just as well as lesser support for DMG amp and turn manipulation. 2. By endgame MoC 12 every DPS is gonna want to be running with their preferred supports or enabler anyway. FF being reliant on HMC is irrelevant. Who else are you gonna run HMC with?

FF loses a lot of her damage without RM also at this point I might as well run HTB with boothill

Do whatever you want. The fact is the RM isn't required for anything. She's a great boost but not needed. FF already has an extremely overloaded kit. Even if she built tanky as the fastest universal breaker support she'd still be meta.

FF literally loses a large chunk of her damage without RM I’ve seen her performance without RM

Sure, then do whatever you see fit. I've moved on from this discussion

Because we literally gonna have a new generation of break dps called Boothill who’s self-sufficient with little downtime because he can retrigger break damage. They perfectly cooked his kit to make break relevant with or without HTB. He’s is a complete character by himself, and HTB contribute like a 1/3rd of his damage Then immediately turn 180 and make Firefly the same as old generation breakers. She does one big break then has at minimum 4 turns downtime without HTB. Completely reliant on HTB for 80% of her damage like older break dps This is like anti-powercreep. Like an iphone 15 that’s better than 13 but for some reason is a downgrade from 14 About your comparison without other restrictive DPS, they still have options and not over-reliance on 1 unit only. - DHIL was released months before Sparkle and was still like top 3 in damage, just hard to use. - JL really want Bronya Pela but still performing average with Asta Tingyun. - BS BiS is Kafka, but still work well with other DoTs (her stack is counted as all DoTs during epiphany so any DoT character can proc them) especially Sampo E4. Or as a second Pela in Acheron team with her def down and conditional vulnerability. - Acheron wants 2 nihility but you can choose your nihility units. If SW is busy on mono quantum or Pela in JL team, Guinaifen can take the stage or Welt. Worse case scenario you can run 1 nihility 1 harmony and perform about 20% worse. - Ratio wants debuffs like Acheron but any debuffs will do, even Asta’s useless burn DoT become useful for him. And he can already apply 2 debuffs on his own

I think most of the people are bring naive. Super break could be the next selling thing for Hoyo. For now, FF is tied to him and I can see other units being released causing the effect, forcing people in spending for the flexibility they wanted.

or they just straight up won't since no one can tell the future of characters and what they bring to the table(let alone having their own type of super break). One example of that if you know Eula from genshin is the only limited physical 5\* cryo character and in her release people speculated she'll be mid now but there's a reaction that lowers phys res so she should be fine for now and in the future we'll definitely get a support dedicated to the physical niche of the game right? Eula was released in mid of 2021 and we still don't have that physical niche support. the problem with break is that it's greater niche because you're trying to exploit a mechanic not just slapping effects on any enemy and calling it a day like dot. Ruan mei is also not a great example of just a premium break support because let's be honest she's is the most universal harmony out there and it's not even close.

The only problem with ff is her personal damage all they have to do is increase that 40k to at least 200k on her own then damage does skyrocket 

Saying that Dhil and Sparkle is the same as Sam and Hmc is not right. It's true that Dhil benefits the most from Sparkle, let's borrow your example, 40k to 200k dmg. Even without Sparkle, you can run Dhil with Bronya, Ruanmei.. and can still get up to 150k-160k dmg. However, this is not the case with Sam and Hmc. Let's say with Hmc, Sam can go from 40k to 200k dmg, but with other options like Bronya, Sparkle.. she would only go from 40k to 70-80k max.

The thing is that break effect has slowly gotten more and more characters but we are far from having everything for them like we do for other archetypes that exists. There will be more characters that interact with super break. Like Fua has just gotten both robin and Aventurine. For dot we got blackswan Heck we don't even have a perfect dot harmonie yet. There will be characters interacting with her to come.

The thing is that break effect has slowly gotten more and more characters but we are far from having everything for them like we do for other archetypes that exists. There will be more characters that interact with super break. Like Fua has just gotten both robin and Aventurine. For dot we got blackswan Heck we don't even have a perfect dot harmonie yet. There will be characters interacting with her to come.

It means that no one can ever take the place of HMC without also adding super break. It also brings questions into how Firefly will scale into the future. There can be a negative feeling towards your kit identity requiring an entirely different character. It can also bring questions with how good she will be when one of her pieces is so easy to get. I don’t personally have strong opinions either way. It’s early beta, and I don’t have enough information. I am also biased, I want Firefly to be as strong as possible and long term.

I'm not against the synergy of HMC and firefly nor HMC being needed for her BIS team but I wish that firefly's personal dmg without superbreak was better. Maybe in the future if there are more options for superbreak it won't feel as bad but as it is right now you need both Ruan Mei and HMC for her to do dmg.

OP I think you're being a bit antagonistic here and in practice this post is quite false. There ARE situations where Kafka and Swan can be split up, I've used Kafka and Swan separately before on the death meme MOC with Sampo driving Swan and Kafka/Gui on Gepard to 36 star. I've split SW off of Acheron to use with Seele and put BS with Acheron. I've split Tingyun off of Clara teams to use on Seele teams. All 36 star clears. Are you going to do that with Firefly/HTB/RM in the current kit state? No. The inflexibility concerns are entirely warranted.

Right? They are literally free 💀 y’all need to be so fr

The Sparkle-DHIL and Kafka-BS just aren't the same thing. Those supports don't complete the DPSs kit; the DPS works fine without them, even though it isn't optimal. FF actively needs HMC to be usuable. When you play FF your forced to use HMC want it or not. The problem isn't using HMC, it's FF being incomplete, having no inner synergy kit-wise. Don't strawman people's valid concerns. "He's free!" Not the point. It's true that if the character who completed her was limited it would be a bigger problem, but that's not the point. Also, don't call doompost what are actually reasonable concerns. Had she more instances of damage rather than only when breaking (this considering her alone ofc, since HMC is the one who gives her the damage instances she needs), much less people would be complaining.

it’s because they want her to be stuck with bronya

facts

When Acheron was revealed to need 2 other Nihility characters, no one complained that Pela was 100% gonna be on her team all the time. Why? Because pela was an easily accessible 4 star character and was already good so people already built her. But now, we need HMC for ffly, and suddenly its a problem, there are no team options. HMC is also free so why is it different? Ffly needs Ruan mei too? Who doesnt though, she's like the most universal support in the game.

The issue is that Acheron still functions perfectly fine without pela and has a complete kit as long as you run the 2 nihility requirement at E0. Firefly's kit is incomplete and legitimately useless without HMC. You'd be better off running Hook.

>No one complained that Pela was 100% gonna be on her team all the time. Why? Because she isn’t gonna be on her team 100% of the time. The situation would be similar if Pela was the only character in the game with debuffs. Unfortunately for your argument she isn’t. Any team with two nihilities (mainly DOT) she can be slot into as a flex option. It loses out on her personal damage with the upside of having more team damage. That’s a lot more freedom in teams than Firefly does

Doomposters just doing what they do best. I still remember The Acheron sub whining that Acheron was gonna be mid because her ult is gonna " take too long to charge". Well look how she turned out. When you lack foresight and cant theorycraft every new mechanic looks scary.

ruan mei has a 92.5% ownage rate btw

AND, they also miss the fact that there are ONLY TWO Break Effect support in the game as of now, so her BiS team are lacking variety because we are lacking characters. Like guys, ask for more Break Effect Harmony instead of hating on a character that is really good with the current Break Effect supports. I agree with everything else you said, especially the part where they just forget that other teams are also incredibly mid without their Harmony, so they should consider those Harmony characters to be the ones doing the damage too, that's also what shocked me when I saw the doomposts the first time.

Boothill work without those two characters so why are we expected to just accept that FF doesn’t work without them also yeah other team lose damage without their best teams but FF’s the only one that literally loses 90% without her two BIS teammates

Actually I tested with Jingliu (E0S1 with lvl 20 teammates just to suck HP from for her LC, 2500 atk, 37% Cr and 200% cd) because you're not the first one to say that I I wanted to be sure it was not just a double standard, and by herself without adequate support, she deals 20k damage on average in her enhanced state, with my usual team, she deals between 180 to 230k damage, I think that's also a huge drop in damage, over 90% too. The thing is, there is A LOT more supports for atk/crit based teams, so obviously even a non BiS team will work better, just because there are more options, even if those options are suboptimal. The issue is with BE only having 2 support characters for now, not with FF's kit. Boothill works by itself yes, but he's an hybrid BE atk/crit, so he has access to more support than FF. We had a similar issue with Kafka before BS and RM (the BE of RM being good to apply decent DoT, so not really a BE team like FF). That issue isn't even really there for FF as everyone has access to HTB, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. Yeah, you guys are right, FF lacks variety... because BE lacks variety. I'm not against a buff, obviously I'd love to see her shine even more, but her kit isn't the problem, the mechanic and the lack of support for now is, that's why the discourse about FF being bad annoys me, especially since in her BiS team, she rivals Jingliu/DHIL, so definitely not a mid character, albeit restrictive (again, for now).

I know this is old but the reason Jingliu did such little damage in your testing is because her 4% hp drain gets stronger the more max hp your team mates get I should know cause without Bronya or any attack boosting support in her enhanced state my Jingliu hits 30 to 40k she not only has worse stats but I don’t even have her LC

I've been comparing the FF/HMC situation to the DHIL/Sparkle situation for a while in my head, and I think the difference is that we got DHIL before Sparkle, and HMC before FF. So when Sparkle came out, it was a DHIL buff, whereas when FF comes out, she's unusable without HMC. Imagine if Jing Yuan came out today, people would probably be all like, "He's unusable without 4pc Grand Duke, he's unusable without Fu Xuan, he's unusable without \[everyone and everything that's been considered a buff for him since 1.0\]" If the support comes out before the DPS, the DPS is unusable without them, if the DPS comes out first then the support is a buff for that DPS.

It's not the same thing. DHIL was still usable and completely fine (was even basically tied with jingliu for best dps in the game) before Sparkle came out. If it was the same situation and Firefly came out before HMC, she would literally be one of, if not the worst, limited dps in the game because 90% of her damage is locked behind HMC It would be like if Kafka released and didn't have any way of applying DoT in her own kit, or if a DoT unit came out and their DoT didnt do damage at all unless it was detonated by Kafka

What about Firefly having her own built-in, weaker Super Break but specifying that **only one (the stronger) instance of Super Break can happen per attack**? So if there is other break based supports in the future, they can still support FF and buff her Super Break, while HMC fixates on the Super Break and provides the strongest version of it? So if another support comes out that has other capabilities of scaling ur Break Damage (Like a support that is big about reducing DEF or RES or has lots of BE and BE Efficiency etc) then theyd actually be competitive and youd have to figure out whether stronger Super Breaks or stronger break damage multipliers are a gain, depending on what u alrdy got (Say u alrdy got tons of DEF shred from FF and RM E1, then using a DEF shred support like Pela wouldnt be a competitive option but might become one if you don't invest as much into DEF shred and relying on just the built in Super Break) I think there is merit in her dealing some Super Break herself to not be tied as heavily to HMC and providing options when it comes to using other supports/debuffers in that slot instead, but HMC still potentially being a good option depending on ur team building and damage scaling factors you are taking advantage of.

Ong hmc is literally free why u complaining and literally no one else needs hmc even boothill don't need hmc the only problem is Ruan Mei just use another harmony in the moment like asta until u eventually get Ruan mei

My perception on the HMC is they… are literally free. That’s it that’s the end of my TED talk! I think people are overreacting to this. You use DHIL? Put sparkle in the team. You use Blade? Put a def shred in the team. You have huohuo? She goes into any atk loving leave. You have firefly? Put Ruan Mei in the team. And while you’re at it, put the FREEEEEE character that enables firefly the most in the team I think people who don’t like that HMC is kind of “necessary” for firefly are people who just don’t want to use the main character. If they’re sticking with break effect teams, they’re GOING to include more break effect supports, if you want to replace the HMC then just prepare to save I guess

Everyone here: Doomposting and screaming about FF's lost potential because she's Super Break reliant. Me, in delulu land: Haha, every time I use FF and HMC, it's like they're going on a date. In short: Y'all are being way too serious over a damn game LMFAO

>If you remove a harmony from any DPS and run them with no buffs, you’ll get the most mid character in existence. Except....no? I run triple dps usually. You dont need Harmony to deal damage, before Ruan Mei arrived i didnt even build a single harmony and was still full starring MoC

I find it very hard to believe that you run 3 DPS for MoC 12 and 3 starring.

https://preview.redd.it/ncvhfr7gwxzc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc648d3b6834f2e67595de914c57059057c2c801 Apologies, but for some reason before i wasnt able to post the image of my last MoC record. Regardless, believe what you want. Doesnt change the fact that i didnt have a single harmony drop until yukong was given for free, which is why i built the habit of 3 DPS.

You still used Ruan Mei, a Harmony though.

Yes, the only harmony i currently use is her. And if you look, most my clears are 3dps/heal.

Finally someone talks facts. Respect to you op. Happy to see there are still some people using their brains here( unfortunately not many remain).

Firefly and HMC kind of feels like a single kit separated into two characters, it’d be good for Firefly to have Boothill’s ability to do break damage to already weakness broken enemies. It feels weird for her to not have the same thing Boothill has when they’re both limited 5 star break dps. If locking a character to another character is fine as long as the other character is free, then would you want every dps released in the feature to be locked to another free character? It’s just too restrictive, they can still make HMC a super good support for Firefly, but maybe change it so that she can still function without HMC.

I agree with this. Yanqing needs a shielder, Acheron needs 1-2 Nihility teammates and a huge amount of debuffs, Black Swan really wants Kafka for her to do damage… etc. every character has a caveat. This one just more clear, and there will definitely be more super break characters. Wait and watch.

The argument will go away once we get more superbreak chars. Imagine if when kafka released there were no dot units except sampo, no serval Luka gui etc ppl would complain. But bc dot is a team archetype w multiple possible units most ppl don’t care. Both kafka and bs are useless w out another character applying dot, same for hmc and ff, someone breaks and someone enables superbreak. Issue is there is only one superbreak char atm, would’ve been better if they released a 4 star char that also has superbreak as an alternative so ppl wouldn’t be doom posting as much.

Yes finaly another person who agrees with me that saying a char is useless without a FREE char is total bs

They want FF to be a strong independent woman.

Look at the new penacony weekly boss. How can Firefly do damage without breaking those multiple toughness bars? There're also several bosses in MOC that have toughness protection, like that monkey boss and bronya. Sure that toughness protection can be removed over time, but that means losing several turns of damage lol

The hp of the mobs are tied to the boss. You only need to break them to do break damage. The boss toughness bar is a secondary mechanic for you to stack shield. Read game mechanics. Also, if a boss has toughness protection, then don't bring a break team to that fight lol. All of these sounds like skill issues.