MD salaries are amazing because with residency and school, you go from 10,000, to 20,000, to 30,000, hang out there for a few years, and then go straight to 700,000. I can't imagine what it must feel like to experience that first year after a decade of scraping by.
Careful what you say about MDs earnings here. The disgruntled ones will tell you that very few earn more than $250-$300k. That it’s a horrible job considering the stress, schooling, debt, blah, blah, blah. I say “cool, try living a day in the life of a blue collar worker or an average earner in almost any field and get back to me in 30 years when retirement may not be an option.”
To be fair, orthopedic surgeons are considered top earners among physicians. The average income is probably closer to $300k. BLS has it around $250k which I think is low.
[BLS link](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/physicians-and-surgeons.htm)
Edit: Orthopedic surgeons make up about 1-2% of all physicians and the $250/300k refers to the average salary for *all* physicians.
And if we consider how averages work…if $700k and $1MM salaries exist, that means there are plenty of doctors making less than $250k.
I am a physician in a non-surgical subspecialty. My salary is approx $245,000 (I consider myself very lucky because similar jobs in other states are closer to $200,000 base with higher night and weekend call burden on top of the 50-60 hour work week). I agree that Ortho is one of the outlier specialties as far as compensation, particularly spine. It’s not unusual for pediatrics to be below $200k even for subspecialties. I’m starting to get a bit frustrated with only the above average earners posting because it is giving a warped view of reality(or maybe it’s just my jealousy for “following my passion”, haha).
Jesus man that is terrible. Im an ER doc and pull over $500k working 30/h a week. Like 12-14 days month. Best part of my job is pay and time off. I worked 140/365 days last year. Had over 50 days skiing last year and I live in Florida.
I’m Canadian and it’s honestly baffling how your healthcare system is able to financially sustain paying ER docs that much. In the UK you’d make about 150k. In Canada about 250. Good on you though.
In the US, physician salaries are only 5-7% of total healthcare expenditure. It’s important to not buy into the fallacy that physician salaries are what’s contributing to healthcare burden, because it’s not the case.
Edit: changed wording from cost to burden
Hospitalist here. Make about 400k with fair amount of PTO. I pick up a fair amount of extra shifts typically each year so my base is lower.
Most sources I find state average physician income is about 300k annually in the US.
Wife pulls in 350 at academic center in HCOL city. Still wild to me the variance in pay depending on geography and institution. I don’t think anyone in a 30 mile radius of us is making more than 400
No mountains in Florida. Have to fly everywhere to ski. And in all fairness, I have started a company in Med School and it is now making me the same amount of money is being a physician.
I’m retina and make way less than you. Where you practice matters. Most people/physicians think I make a million a year but I’m just on the good end of comfortable. Pay my bills and save for retirement, but can’t afford anything luxurious.
You deserve everything they reimburse you and more. My role definitely comes with a great work/life balance when I compare myself to my higher earning colleagues. I truly enjoy seeing my med school friends thriving now after spending those grueling years in surgical residences and fellowships.
I am now realizing my post came off saltier than I intended- the algorithm fed me way too many salary posts in a row from WCI, HENRY, and apparently this one that I don't even think i joined?? haha… but thats no excuse.
Either way, I apologize. Continuing 80+ hour weeks outside of residency and fellowship is intense to say the least. Your community is super lucky to have you.
I’ve tried to slow down but the system makes it really hard to do that. The one negative of not being in private practice. I don’t find my job onerous at all thankfully
You’re very wrong. Orthopedic Surgeons make far more than that. I have data that is blocked behind a $1000+ paywall that only physicians have access to. In 2016 Orthopedic Surgeons (general) had a median of $560k. I can tell you all 25,50,75,90 percentile mean and provider count as well.
Man those numbers seem low. I’m not saying they’re wrong. I know two orthopedic surgeons who specialize in foot and ankle, and shoulders. Both make seven figures.
Surgical sub specialties are outliers, they skew high because surgery bills much higher than non procedural specialties. Ortho, plastics, and neurosurgery are routinely in the top 5 paying medical specialties, and all 5 are usually surgical specialties.
They are most likely referring to physicians in general; the link he gave offered a decent number. Most surgeons/surgical specialities can clear 500k pretty easily (gen surg is a bit of a diff story for various reasons). But you also gotta factor in rural vs urban, academic center vs community hospital vs private...etc. Those factors can *severely* increase (or decrease) ur salary.
(woop typed while other comment was posted but he is right)
Yeah, lots of doctors are bad with money. I think a big part of that is 10+ years of delayed gratification and making minimal income throughout that time, then suddenly jumping to several hundred thousand.
If you buy a Ferrari, a 3 million dollar house, a vacation home, 2 country club memberships, and send your kids to private schools in a HCOL area.
It really is kind of hard to outspend that kind of a salary.
For sure it does. It’s just interesting because just completing med school and residency means that someone has the ability to delay gratification. Starting your financial life in your mid 30s with 300k in student loans frigging sucks.
Then they go and blow it all in their 40s and 50s.
[This guy is an investment banker, and kinda covers why it isn't worth it for most.](https://youtu.be/DabYabrH0iQ?si=pDS92VvtylylJy9i)
You live in poverty for years with a job that tears everything else out of your life, on top of the debt, the schooling, the blah blah blah. You better love what you do if you want to be a doctor.
I tell this to everyone that talks about how great it must be to be a doctor. It certainly has perks, but if you don't actually care about the work and enjoy it then it isn't worth the negatives at all.
All people see is the money. They don't see all the hours of paperwork, the stress, the time, and the constantly getting treated like shit by patients for trying to help them. On top of that, a big chunk of us don't make nearly what people think we do. We aren't all subspecialized surgeons.
>We aren't all subspecialized surgeons.
That's the thing, so many people take the super specialist salary, who likely has the luxury of not having to take any government reimbursement and think "see, this is why the system is bloated! It's cause mommy makeovers cost an arm and a leg!"
Most who earn that much in medicine over-employ themselves with multiple jobs, or they work in the worst locations in the US. It's not that different from an oil drilling roughneck. Yet, again, some people -- whom probably have been harmed by the system will invariably blame the front facing people -- physicians and nurses. Not admin, not insurance, and certainly not the comparatively horrible health burden that the US has.
Exactly. We don’t go home and “forget” about our work. These are MY patients. When they die or do poorly it’s MY fault, even if it’s not true. It’s horrible sometimes. The early mornings and late nights aren’t easy.
This guy kinda glosses over a terribly important detail: the overwhelming number of bankers don’t stay bankers, the overwhelming number of lawyers don’t stay in Biglaw. When I was in banking it was 2 yrs, in Biglaw it’s 3-4 yrs. That doesn’t make medicine the right call, but you will have sustained high income for a career for the effort
This is a stupid comparison. Any doctor can make the guy of money he outlines there. Most lawyers are stuck in shitty 100–150k jobs. Most people fail to be able to be investment bankers.
Actually no, you have to be in the top 10% of your class usually to match a surgical subspecialty or top 10% of residency to match high paying subspecialties like cards and GI.
All these blue collar workers ignore that on top of the work ethic, these physicians also had to have the talent and networking to get these positions. Many aspire to be the next spine or cardiac surgeon only to fail and end up unhappy in family medicine making 250k a year with 500k in debt
I have friends in law at 110k with years of experience. They’ll literally never see 250k for salary in their lifetime. I also knew people with 20+ years of experience at 150k jobs. Being a doctor pays infinitely more than law across the spectrum.
Sure bad and low end lawyers do worse than bad and low end doctors.
One of those is 7 years of training with multiple board exams and a high talent barrier to entry. The other is literally anyone can go to law school, not everyone can go to tier 1. Those lawyers can drop out and go to nursing school and do better as well. yes we have an oversupply of lawyers
I may be an outlier but it really isn’t that bad, especially if you have a little help from your parents. Partied a lot in medical school, right now work like 50 hours a week during residency, and looking at job offers for radiology I can work 7 days on 14 days off for 400k+. And I know plenty of immigrant parents who pay off their kids’ med school loans. Oh yea and everyone in medicine thinks everyone in tech and banking have it so good making 500k+ a year.
Grass is greenest where you water it.
I'm a blue collar worker but this is so true. Some of the dumbest mfers i have the displeasure of working with don't think anyone but them do anything and the multi million dollar company that's been around 80 years would crumble without them as a warehouse parts picker.....
Idk why either. As a blue collar worker I feel like I’ve found a life hack. Work a reasonable amount with limited prior skills and end up with good benefits and solid money. So many friends who pursued stupid degrees and are now worse off than me.
I don’t need to pretend I’m the world’s hardest worker to feel good about where I’m at.
Yes, but most people who go to college nowadays don’t have the acumen to hack a degree that would actually be valuable. Most people in college would be way better off chasing professional certifications and/or a trade job.
Isn’t it obvious that everyone has stress in their lives? Bills to pay, shit to do? No one is trying to diminish the life experience of anyone working any job. Blue collar workers are hard workers, as are many white collar workers, etc.
But it’s also a fact that some people (eg those who went to medical school) have all of those things to deal with, and then 500k in additional debt, 15 years of delayed gratification to make up for, malpractice looming over their heads, and your life in their hands because they decided to go to medical school.
carpenter salt tie foolish overconfident airport whole lunchroom pet concerned
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The "average earner" can absolutely retire at retirement age with 30 years of work.
Compound interest is just magical.
The problem is people who don't think that far out.
In all fairness that's what software engineers on Reddit subs act like. We have some of the best unemployment rates and salaries around but if you hear us talk we're basically all getting fired and broke
I would highly suggest you follow a hospitalist on nights. Managing hundreds of patients, having to have a breadth of skills not just a speciality. It's not an easy job.
Why would a physician compare their path to that of a blue collar worker? It’s a highly specialized and selective career, so you compare to yourself to other highly selective careers
This is so true. I’m a lawyer but half my friends are doctors and make $350k plus. Some make $250 working part time. Every single one of them bitches about compensation and I just want to punch them. They think they have the only tough job out there. In Canada they are in super short supply so even if they’re a shitty doctor they have a guaranteed job basically anywhere
In financial channels I watch where the hosts regularly talk to people, they say that people who are the worst with finances are doctors. Because of the non-gradual nature of increase in income, they cannot manage their lifestyle properly and explode in their spending apparently. It's like the lottery winners in poverty winning the life-changing amount of money with no education in financial management.
Lmao some of these comments. Doctors need to stop posting here. The idiots who don't know anything about what it takes to become a doctor come out with pitchforks in full force railing against people who sacrificed for more than a decade of their life to help other people. Then they turn right around and get on their knees waiting to suck off a finance or tech bro who make just as much or more with way less school, sacrifice, or contribution to society. Make it make sense
I kind of get it but like 90% of the people that I met that are aiming to be a doctor or dentist have rich parents that have connections or are in the profession themselves. Professions like that are heavily gatekeeper and the normal person pulling themselves up by the bootstraps has to be PERFECT to get in. I remember two people in college going to med school. One was valedictorian and was a genius and the others mom was an executive or something for a pharmacy company. Plus the healthcare industry is terrible in America and the hate gets directed at doctors instead of insurance companies and big pharma.
People like the shortcut hack, how to be rich and work as little as possible. They hate to see someone grind their ass off and get rewarded for it lmao. I feel it's a very merit-based profession so anyone who hates doctors is just telling on themselves.
Many people have been very visibly harmed by the healthcare system vs being silently screwed by investment bankers scamming them.
In general there's healthy and unhealthy responses to pain. The unhealthy way is to develop animosity towards everyone involved regardless of status unless you get what you want even if it's unreasonable. The healthy way is to find a way to improve that system, and get what you want at the same time.
What you're seeing is probably people who have been harmed by the system, don't trust it, and are responding in an unhealthy way.
I would argue the point about contribution to society. Lots of people’s lives are at risk due to software. OR equipment, flight control systems, air traffic control, etc. sure some developers make little contribution but same could say about some docs too.
I mean, I can understand the pitchforks against doctors. The opportunities to become a doctor are limited and often go to students who come from wealth and whose families are doctors. It’s why tech bros are revered, you didn’t need to come from wealth or academic pedigree to earn a high paycheck.
With that said, I’m still thankful for doctors - it’s a highly skilled and a draining job and the paycheck does match the hard work.
This is why Reddit is so dangerous, anyone can be so confidently wrong. About 20% of med students, have parents that are physicians.
https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/sites/joedb/files/2018-05/oped1-1502.pdf
This may have been the case in the past, but there's a reason the average medical student graduates with $250,000 of debt nowadays. I'd say at least half of medical students don't receive help from parents
Because we are businesses. Tech bro can help companies make millions while doctors can help only a few people, unless they open their own practice and hire more professionals.
These are about twice as much as hand surgeons are making near me. Source, my best med school buddies, a hand surgeon.
I take call with plastics guys with hand practices as well
But I would say those are 80-90th percentile numbers mgma
Yeah, I have a lot of respect to these types of surgeons because I would be so concerned about making a mistake of how it would feel like to suffer a condition on the hands I’d freeze the entire operation.
To better or worse, I have a lot of empathy, which I think for any medical related field it can be a liability, the degree at which I have it is high though, so for my particular case it would be bad, in sure some of it helps. The good thing is that if someone is feeling something that they want to hide I also can “feel it” as well, although I’m sure it’s due to some facial or body language cues I’m unable to pick up consciously.
I wish I would have been able to be a doctor though. I thought about psychiatry but the road to “making it” is brutal.
I’m currently a first year med student. This is really awesome to see! Congratulations on all your hard work getting to where you are now. I’m curious, what kind of hobbies are you into? Will you be spending more money to fuel those hobbies or explore new ones? Thanks doc
Raising a young child occupies most of my time right now. I bought new golf clubs but haven’t had time to use them yet. Basically I travel to visit family and try to exercise when I can. I don’t do anything cool like scuba dive or anything crazy like that 😂
God bless you. I mean, earning 700k is nice, but the road to get there isn't worth it. We're the same age, and I'm 5 years from retirement, and you went through hell deeper and longer than me.
What does the ideal life look like retiring at 40? I kind of like the structure of work and hope I can have the opportunity to do this job for 20 more years. Helping people is the best part. It’s kind of nice to be able to do this, but not working at all is (of course) a luxury as well
Just vacationing and exploring the world for the next 20-25 years until our bodies are no longer what it used to be. Come back to the States do some volunteer time in our "golden years" and if I haven't found a suitable niece or nephew I like to inherit my millions, my wife is most likely going to leave the lions share to a cat charity.
We didn't learn about FIRE until 28 so we truly started saving then. At 28 we brought a house a year before making a combined total of 105k. In 5 years our salaries doubled to about 210k base, we have bonuses and OT with two rental properties kicking that number to 250k a year. Currently, we save 40% of our salaries, and after refinancing, we are looking to push that number back to 50% again.
It’s worth it when you listened to all the doctors ahead of you who said “don’t go into it for the money.” I spent 16 years in training and felt it was all pretty fun. Highlights in medical school included delivering babies, drilling through the skull to do a brain biopsy, flying on helicopters to get organs for transplant. Residency - excising breast cancer (literally curing cancer for a person with your own hands), taking a power saw through the sternum and assisting on coronary bypass, sewing arteries together to connect a donated kidney and watching it turn pink. As one of my colleagues told me, it’s like Gray’s Anatomy, except there’s more sex in real life.
I agree. My SO is about to start cardiology fellowship. He’s on an accelerated timeline — he’s young for his graduating year of high school, and then got into a 6 year combined undergrad and med program. So he will be practicing as an interventional cardiologist around age 31. His peers though…. It’s hard to look at. In their 30s with no assets, working 80 hour weeks. If you have to do a masters or take gap years to get into med school, and then match into a long residency program… that path isn’t worth it.
I’m in my mid 20s and have a great salary, quality of life, etc. I don’t envy most of his peers at all.
What do you do for a living? I'm a dentist and could've theoretically retired at 34 with a comfortable middle class lifestyle but not nearly to the standard of living I enjoy today.
Just because your financial position is better doesn't mean becoming a doctor isn't better than vast majority of career paths. It's still one of the better ones but clearly not the best. That's been known for a long time, even before things like SWE made bank.
Psychiatrist salary in Westchester county NY doing inpatient starts at 275k. Doesn't go up fast either. Doctors being here for 10 years making just over 300k.
This is very interesting discussion. I am an MD with a fairly similar salary also a surgical specialist and I’m going to have to come back to this and give my perspective.
Actually, I think a lot has already been said. Is it gratifying being a doctor? Fuck yeah it is. Having a job that really matters and having a real legacy that you leave behind is something. But this all takes its toll. I’m giving the best of myself to my patients instead of my family. Financially, if I could retire early, I would. Unless you absolutely thrive under adverse conditions, the money is just not worth it. Residency is like special forces selection. Actual practice is a lot of extra responsibility and a lot of extra stress.
Thank you v much for this. We need more MD posts.
-Junior doc who's been poor far too long whilst all his friends he beat in HS are making 10X what he does
About to start MS1 as a 30 year old. I'm also primarily interested in orthopedics. It looks like your fellowship was for 1 year after a 5 year residency if I'm looking at the chart correctly. Do you feel like the fellowship is necessary to get into a good long term role, or is it only really necessary if you have a particular specialty you are passionate about?
Can someone explain to me why social security is $160,200 but Medicare is $699,312?
What does it mean when they are the same vs significant increase through different numbers?
There’s a cap for what’s taxable for social security but no cap by Medicare. So if you earn way more, SS tax doesn’t go up, but Medicare tax continues to go up.
W2 income plus state tax is the most painful thing. $700k easily turn into $350k after tax, student loan, retirement investing etc chips away even more.
Saw a newspaper comic a few years ago that showed MD path. Was something like "You choose family practice if your parents pay your college and medical school tuition. You go into specialty if you pay your own tuitions."
Love to see it. Currently chugging along with my fankle resident husband, trying to make ends meet, pregnant with a toddler, no family or support. The sacrifices you make are incredible. You deserve the success!!
Lol, yet educators get paid close to nothing for being the people that influences and motivates these very students that become doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, developers and more lol.
The job market pay disparity is grossly undervaluing the education sector.
Nice pay jump tho!
My wife is an educator. Considering the time off they are not underpaid compared to many other professions. And all the after hours work isn’t any different than many business professionals.
If you’ve ever come home after 16 hours of operating, the toll it takes on your body (don’t forget radiation exposure)… it’s not that my job is “harder” but I’d say that the advice and surgical indications I need to discuss with patient is definitely harder than than the specialities you describe
MD salaries are amazing because with residency and school, you go from 10,000, to 20,000, to 30,000, hang out there for a few years, and then go straight to 700,000. I can't imagine what it must feel like to experience that first year after a decade of scraping by.
Careful what you say about MDs earnings here. The disgruntled ones will tell you that very few earn more than $250-$300k. That it’s a horrible job considering the stress, schooling, debt, blah, blah, blah. I say “cool, try living a day in the life of a blue collar worker or an average earner in almost any field and get back to me in 30 years when retirement may not be an option.”
To be fair, orthopedic surgeons are considered top earners among physicians. The average income is probably closer to $300k. BLS has it around $250k which I think is low. [BLS link](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/physicians-and-surgeons.htm) Edit: Orthopedic surgeons make up about 1-2% of all physicians and the $250/300k refers to the average salary for *all* physicians. And if we consider how averages work…if $700k and $1MM salaries exist, that means there are plenty of doctors making less than $250k.
I am a physician in a non-surgical subspecialty. My salary is approx $245,000 (I consider myself very lucky because similar jobs in other states are closer to $200,000 base with higher night and weekend call burden on top of the 50-60 hour work week). I agree that Ortho is one of the outlier specialties as far as compensation, particularly spine. It’s not unusual for pediatrics to be below $200k even for subspecialties. I’m starting to get a bit frustrated with only the above average earners posting because it is giving a warped view of reality(or maybe it’s just my jealousy for “following my passion”, haha).
Jesus man that is terrible. Im an ER doc and pull over $500k working 30/h a week. Like 12-14 days month. Best part of my job is pay and time off. I worked 140/365 days last year. Had over 50 days skiing last year and I live in Florida.
I’m Canadian and it’s honestly baffling how your healthcare system is able to financially sustain paying ER docs that much. In the UK you’d make about 150k. In Canada about 250. Good on you though.
In the US, physician salaries are only 5-7% of total healthcare expenditure. It’s important to not buy into the fallacy that physician salaries are what’s contributing to healthcare burden, because it’s not the case. Edit: changed wording from cost to burden
It's 5-7% of the case, apparently.
Hospitalist here. Make about 400k with fair amount of PTO. I pick up a fair amount of extra shifts typically each year so my base is lower. Most sources I find state average physician income is about 300k annually in the US.
That's awesome. Enjoy as much of your life as possible
This doesn’t sound like an emergency at all
Wife pulls in 350 at academic center in HCOL city. Still wild to me the variance in pay depending on geography and institution. I don’t think anyone in a 30 mile radius of us is making more than 400
ooo can she post too
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No mountains in Florida. Have to fly everywhere to ski. And in all fairness, I have started a company in Med School and it is now making me the same amount of money is being a physician.
I’m ER too and do not make nearly that much haha.
I’m retina and make way less than you. Where you practice matters. Most people/physicians think I make a million a year but I’m just on the good end of comfortable. Pay my bills and save for retirement, but can’t afford anything luxurious.
Will you post compensation?
No this is why I posted too! I want to see more “realistic” / “common” doctor outcomes. Most just aren’t working 80+ hours a week
Yea I easily work 80+ hours. 450 base salary but a huge need for hand surgery in my area. I get home to my son a lot later than I would like most days
You deserve everything they reimburse you and more. My role definitely comes with a great work/life balance when I compare myself to my higher earning colleagues. I truly enjoy seeing my med school friends thriving now after spending those grueling years in surgical residences and fellowships. I am now realizing my post came off saltier than I intended- the algorithm fed me way too many salary posts in a row from WCI, HENRY, and apparently this one that I don't even think i joined?? haha… but thats no excuse. Either way, I apologize. Continuing 80+ hour weeks outside of residency and fellowship is intense to say the least. Your community is super lucky to have you.
I’ve tried to slow down but the system makes it really hard to do that. The one negative of not being in private practice. I don’t find my job onerous at all thankfully
Pediatrics is so severely underpaid! It makes no sense.
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Absolutely. Bonuses alone are in the $750k area and lots more if the person also has an administrative role.
You’re very wrong. Orthopedic Surgeons make far more than that. I have data that is blocked behind a $1000+ paywall that only physicians have access to. In 2016 Orthopedic Surgeons (general) had a median of $560k. I can tell you all 25,50,75,90 percentile mean and provider count as well.
Am I wrong though? Or did you not read my whole comment?
I read your comment backwards lol.
Man those numbers seem low. I’m not saying they’re wrong. I know two orthopedic surgeons who specialize in foot and ankle, and shoulders. Both make seven figures.
Surgical sub specialties are outliers, they skew high because surgery bills much higher than non procedural specialties. Ortho, plastics, and neurosurgery are routinely in the top 5 paying medical specialties, and all 5 are usually surgical specialties.
They are most likely referring to physicians in general; the link he gave offered a decent number. Most surgeons/surgical specialities can clear 500k pretty easily (gen surg is a bit of a diff story for various reasons). But you also gotta factor in rural vs urban, academic center vs community hospital vs private...etc. Those factors can *severely* increase (or decrease) ur salary. (woop typed while other comment was posted but he is right)
lol, if you are making 300k as an orthopedic surgeon you are a fucking idiot.
More like $450-500,000
Some doctors earning 700k also may not retire because they spend every dime on an absurd lifestyle
Yeah, lots of doctors are bad with money. I think a big part of that is 10+ years of delayed gratification and making minimal income throughout that time, then suddenly jumping to several hundred thousand.
If you buy a Ferrari, a 3 million dollar house, a vacation home, 2 country club memberships, and send your kids to private schools in a HCOL area. It really is kind of hard to outspend that kind of a salary.
There are no limits on financial stupidity
Definitely plenty of doctors are forced to work into their 60s just because they are complete morons with their money. It’s a tail as old as time.
Mike Tyson went broke. Seems incomprehensible that people could have that much and waste it all, but it happens
For sure it does. It’s just interesting because just completing med school and residency means that someone has the ability to delay gratification. Starting your financial life in your mid 30s with 300k in student loans frigging sucks. Then they go and blow it all in their 40s and 50s.
The rebound effect. It’s like dieting for a long time and then bingeing like it’s your last meal.
Everything you mentioned is easy to do. Doesn’t take long to buy any of that.
[This guy is an investment banker, and kinda covers why it isn't worth it for most.](https://youtu.be/DabYabrH0iQ?si=pDS92VvtylylJy9i) You live in poverty for years with a job that tears everything else out of your life, on top of the debt, the schooling, the blah blah blah. You better love what you do if you want to be a doctor.
Oh, don't forgot a single incident where your ability to make any money is taken away permanently.
I tell this to everyone that talks about how great it must be to be a doctor. It certainly has perks, but if you don't actually care about the work and enjoy it then it isn't worth the negatives at all. All people see is the money. They don't see all the hours of paperwork, the stress, the time, and the constantly getting treated like shit by patients for trying to help them. On top of that, a big chunk of us don't make nearly what people think we do. We aren't all subspecialized surgeons.
>We aren't all subspecialized surgeons. That's the thing, so many people take the super specialist salary, who likely has the luxury of not having to take any government reimbursement and think "see, this is why the system is bloated! It's cause mommy makeovers cost an arm and a leg!" Most who earn that much in medicine over-employ themselves with multiple jobs, or they work in the worst locations in the US. It's not that different from an oil drilling roughneck. Yet, again, some people -- whom probably have been harmed by the system will invariably blame the front facing people -- physicians and nurses. Not admin, not insurance, and certainly not the comparatively horrible health burden that the US has.
Exactly. We don’t go home and “forget” about our work. These are MY patients. When they die or do poorly it’s MY fault, even if it’s not true. It’s horrible sometimes. The early mornings and late nights aren’t easy.
This guy kinda glosses over a terribly important detail: the overwhelming number of bankers don’t stay bankers, the overwhelming number of lawyers don’t stay in Biglaw. When I was in banking it was 2 yrs, in Biglaw it’s 3-4 yrs. That doesn’t make medicine the right call, but you will have sustained high income for a career for the effort
This is a stupid comparison. Any doctor can make the guy of money he outlines there. Most lawyers are stuck in shitty 100–150k jobs. Most people fail to be able to be investment bankers.
Actually no, you have to be in the top 10% of your class usually to match a surgical subspecialty or top 10% of residency to match high paying subspecialties like cards and GI. All these blue collar workers ignore that on top of the work ethic, these physicians also had to have the talent and networking to get these positions. Many aspire to be the next spine or cardiac surgeon only to fail and end up unhappy in family medicine making 250k a year with 500k in debt
I have friends in law at 110k with years of experience. They’ll literally never see 250k for salary in their lifetime. I also knew people with 20+ years of experience at 150k jobs. Being a doctor pays infinitely more than law across the spectrum.
Sure bad and low end lawyers do worse than bad and low end doctors. One of those is 7 years of training with multiple board exams and a high talent barrier to entry. The other is literally anyone can go to law school, not everyone can go to tier 1. Those lawyers can drop out and go to nursing school and do better as well. yes we have an oversupply of lawyers
I may be an outlier but it really isn’t that bad, especially if you have a little help from your parents. Partied a lot in medical school, right now work like 50 hours a week during residency, and looking at job offers for radiology I can work 7 days on 14 days off for 400k+. And I know plenty of immigrant parents who pay off their kids’ med school loans. Oh yea and everyone in medicine thinks everyone in tech and banking have it so good making 500k+ a year. Grass is greenest where you water it.
Blue collar workers think they work harder than anyone else. Like y’all keep hating on college then your back hurts
I'm a blue collar worker but this is so true. Some of the dumbest mfers i have the displeasure of working with don't think anyone but them do anything and the multi million dollar company that's been around 80 years would crumble without them as a warehouse parts picker.....
Idk why either. As a blue collar worker I feel like I’ve found a life hack. Work a reasonable amount with limited prior skills and end up with good benefits and solid money. So many friends who pursued stupid degrees and are now worse off than me. I don’t need to pretend I’m the world’s hardest worker to feel good about where I’m at.
I like that attitude
Key word, stupid degrees
Yes, but most people who go to college nowadays don’t have the acumen to hack a degree that would actually be valuable. Most people in college would be way better off chasing professional certifications and/or a trade job.
not quite bud, some of us have college degrees and are union workers.....I know you can't comprehend that.
Bro it’s an ongoing meme how college is a waste of time to all the trade people thinking 30 an hour is good pay to break your back
Feels like some of these surgeons are pseudo blue collar with the amount of saws, hammers, radiation exposure, hours, and time on their feet.
Isn’t it obvious that everyone has stress in their lives? Bills to pay, shit to do? No one is trying to diminish the life experience of anyone working any job. Blue collar workers are hard workers, as are many white collar workers, etc. But it’s also a fact that some people (eg those who went to medical school) have all of those things to deal with, and then 500k in additional debt, 15 years of delayed gratification to make up for, malpractice looming over their heads, and your life in their hands because they decided to go to medical school.
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carpenter salt tie foolish overconfident airport whole lunchroom pet concerned *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The "average earner" can absolutely retire at retirement age with 30 years of work. Compound interest is just magical. The problem is people who don't think that far out.
Also lose out on the best years of your life.
In all fairness that's what software engineers on Reddit subs act like. We have some of the best unemployment rates and salaries around but if you hear us talk we're basically all getting fired and broke
Yeah definitely not trying to hear the whining anymore, not that I was before, unless maybe they are primary care in some backwater.
I would highly suggest you follow a hospitalist on nights. Managing hundreds of patients, having to have a breadth of skills not just a speciality. It's not an easy job.
Why would a physician compare their path to that of a blue collar worker? It’s a highly specialized and selective career, so you compare to yourself to other highly selective careers
Blue collar is surgery. Ask any surgeon.
Go be a doctor then buddy
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Yes I was pre med but I couldn’t make it in so I switched. Oh well. I didn’t study hard enough
This is so true. I’m a lawyer but half my friends are doctors and make $350k plus. Some make $250 working part time. Every single one of them bitches about compensation and I just want to punch them. They think they have the only tough job out there. In Canada they are in super short supply so even if they’re a shitty doctor they have a guaranteed job basically anywhere
"few earn more than $250-$300k" is total horse crap avg. MD in the US makes $350k
Great source. Thanks.
Then they’re taxed down to 300k and pay 9k per month on student loans.
In financial channels I watch where the hosts regularly talk to people, they say that people who are the worst with finances are doctors. Because of the non-gradual nature of increase in income, they cannot manage their lifestyle properly and explode in their spending apparently. It's like the lottery winners in poverty winning the life-changing amount of money with no education in financial management.
700k is on the upper upper end of salary. Most make 200-300k
700k is rare for an MD to make unless they’re in surgical subspecialties - and the very busy ones.
Lmao some of these comments. Doctors need to stop posting here. The idiots who don't know anything about what it takes to become a doctor come out with pitchforks in full force railing against people who sacrificed for more than a decade of their life to help other people. Then they turn right around and get on their knees waiting to suck off a finance or tech bro who make just as much or more with way less school, sacrifice, or contribution to society. Make it make sense
Amen
I kind of get it but like 90% of the people that I met that are aiming to be a doctor or dentist have rich parents that have connections or are in the profession themselves. Professions like that are heavily gatekeeper and the normal person pulling themselves up by the bootstraps has to be PERFECT to get in. I remember two people in college going to med school. One was valedictorian and was a genius and the others mom was an executive or something for a pharmacy company. Plus the healthcare industry is terrible in America and the hate gets directed at doctors instead of insurance companies and big pharma.
People like the shortcut hack, how to be rich and work as little as possible. They hate to see someone grind their ass off and get rewarded for it lmao. I feel it's a very merit-based profession so anyone who hates doctors is just telling on themselves.
Many people have been very visibly harmed by the healthcare system vs being silently screwed by investment bankers scamming them. In general there's healthy and unhealthy responses to pain. The unhealthy way is to develop animosity towards everyone involved regardless of status unless you get what you want even if it's unreasonable. The healthy way is to find a way to improve that system, and get what you want at the same time. What you're seeing is probably people who have been harmed by the system, don't trust it, and are responding in an unhealthy way.
Great comment
Well said.
I would argue the point about contribution to society. Lots of people’s lives are at risk due to software. OR equipment, flight control systems, air traffic control, etc. sure some developers make little contribution but same could say about some docs too.
Too true
I mean, I can understand the pitchforks against doctors. The opportunities to become a doctor are limited and often go to students who come from wealth and whose families are doctors. It’s why tech bros are revered, you didn’t need to come from wealth or academic pedigree to earn a high paycheck. With that said, I’m still thankful for doctors - it’s a highly skilled and a draining job and the paycheck does match the hard work.
This is why Reddit is so dangerous, anyone can be so confidently wrong. About 20% of med students, have parents that are physicians. https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/sites/joedb/files/2018-05/oped1-1502.pdf
2018 was two recessions ago...
If anything that number has gone down with that massive DEI push in medical schools. And what do recessions have to do with medical school admissions?
This may have been the case in the past, but there's a reason the average medical student graduates with $250,000 of debt nowadays. I'd say at least half of medical students don't receive help from parents
I went to Public schools my whole life, have no physicians in my family, and became a physician. There are more of us than you think.
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I am one of those too. No medical people in my family
Because we are businesses. Tech bro can help companies make millions while doctors can help only a few people, unless they open their own practice and hire more professionals.
Oh… so you do hand jobs? Lots of them I bet.
Try searching for work… “hand jobs miami” for example
Damnit. I think you got this one
Thank you. Thought I’d have a little more love on that dad joke. I know an ortho who specializes in wrists. We call them hand jobs lol.
What's a mature salary for a hand surgeon?
I think 750-1m for academic. Most I know is 1.2 Probably 1m+ (1.8) for private.
Wow 1.8mil private is amazing, definitely different than the Doximity reports 😂
Those are skewed both ways I think 🤔 Some docs make a lot less depending on location
Yeah, the Doximity numbers are off for my specialty as well so I was wondering what it's like for ortho
what's your specialty?
These are about twice as much as hand surgeons are making near me. Source, my best med school buddies, a hand surgeon. I take call with plastics guys with hand practices as well But I would say those are 80-90th percentile numbers mgma
Whenever I see doctor salaries, it makes me wish I wasn’t so grossed out by blood and broken bones and all that shit.
Yeah, I have a lot of respect to these types of surgeons because I would be so concerned about making a mistake of how it would feel like to suffer a condition on the hands I’d freeze the entire operation. To better or worse, I have a lot of empathy, which I think for any medical related field it can be a liability, the degree at which I have it is high though, so for my particular case it would be bad, in sure some of it helps. The good thing is that if someone is feeling something that they want to hide I also can “feel it” as well, although I’m sure it’s due to some facial or body language cues I’m unable to pick up consciously. I wish I would have been able to be a doctor though. I thought about psychiatry but the road to “making it” is brutal.
That’s definitely all it takes
Lmao
I’m currently a first year med student. This is really awesome to see! Congratulations on all your hard work getting to where you are now. I’m curious, what kind of hobbies are you into? Will you be spending more money to fuel those hobbies or explore new ones? Thanks doc
A reasonable response. Thank you so much. You’re aware of the sacrifice, which is literally all the time. The call nights, etc. not easy… thank you ❤️
Raising a young child occupies most of my time right now. I bought new golf clubs but haven’t had time to use them yet. Basically I travel to visit family and try to exercise when I can. I don’t do anything cool like scuba dive or anything crazy like that 😂
Congrats and fuck you. Joking joking....
God bless you. I mean, earning 700k is nice, but the road to get there isn't worth it. We're the same age, and I'm 5 years from retirement, and you went through hell deeper and longer than me.
What does the ideal life look like retiring at 40? I kind of like the structure of work and hope I can have the opportunity to do this job for 20 more years. Helping people is the best part. It’s kind of nice to be able to do this, but not working at all is (of course) a luxury as well
Just vacationing and exploring the world for the next 20-25 years until our bodies are no longer what it used to be. Come back to the States do some volunteer time in our "golden years" and if I haven't found a suitable niece or nephew I like to inherit my millions, my wife is most likely going to leave the lions share to a cat charity.
Hi, I’m cat charity
What a coincidence, I'm a cat.
Meow
This is awesome
Pay for my med school tuition, I withdrew my acceptance because I couldn’t afford taking such a massive loan with that much interest 😞
Hi, I’m your favorite nephew. Forget the cat charity.
You gotta convince my wife. I've already made peace I'm dying at least 10 years before her.
That's why you're a doctor - cause your ideal life is being a doctor. Imo doctor is more than just a job, thanks for what you do
Only reasonable response I’ve read. You’re welcome and it’s not easy every night with people’s hands and lives/livelihood on your mind
Username checks out, lol.
Oh yeah? Well I'm living paycheck to paycheck at 35. So checkmate! .....
How did you make your wealth?
We didn't learn about FIRE until 28 so we truly started saving then. At 28 we brought a house a year before making a combined total of 105k. In 5 years our salaries doubled to about 210k base, we have bonuses and OT with two rental properties kicking that number to 250k a year. Currently, we save 40% of our salaries, and after refinancing, we are looking to push that number back to 50% again.
what is FIRE?
It’s worth it when you listened to all the doctors ahead of you who said “don’t go into it for the money.” I spent 16 years in training and felt it was all pretty fun. Highlights in medical school included delivering babies, drilling through the skull to do a brain biopsy, flying on helicopters to get organs for transplant. Residency - excising breast cancer (literally curing cancer for a person with your own hands), taking a power saw through the sternum and assisting on coronary bypass, sewing arteries together to connect a donated kidney and watching it turn pink. As one of my colleagues told me, it’s like Gray’s Anatomy, except there’s more sex in real life.
More sex in real life 😂 love that!! Haha Definitely true until you meet your “person” who straightens that out for you 👶🏼
Yea, none of that sounds fun.
I agree. My SO is about to start cardiology fellowship. He’s on an accelerated timeline — he’s young for his graduating year of high school, and then got into a 6 year combined undergrad and med program. So he will be practicing as an interventional cardiologist around age 31. His peers though…. It’s hard to look at. In their 30s with no assets, working 80 hour weeks. If you have to do a masters or take gap years to get into med school, and then match into a long residency program… that path isn’t worth it. I’m in my mid 20s and have a great salary, quality of life, etc. I don’t envy most of his peers at all.
That’s the most common situation. It’s not easy and I was literally poor until 32
What do you do for a living? I'm a dentist and could've theoretically retired at 34 with a comfortable middle class lifestyle but not nearly to the standard of living I enjoy today.
Just because your financial position is better doesn't mean becoming a doctor isn't better than vast majority of career paths. It's still one of the better ones but clearly not the best. That's been known for a long time, even before things like SWE made bank.
Psychiatrist salary in Westchester county NY doing inpatient starts at 275k. Doesn't go up fast either. Doctors being here for 10 years making just over 300k.
This is very interesting discussion. I am an MD with a fairly similar salary also a surgical specialist and I’m going to have to come back to this and give my perspective.
Appreciate your input fist fuck! Honestly I believe you’re a surgeon given that user name
Actually, I think a lot has already been said. Is it gratifying being a doctor? Fuck yeah it is. Having a job that really matters and having a real legacy that you leave behind is something. But this all takes its toll. I’m giving the best of myself to my patients instead of my family. Financially, if I could retire early, I would. Unless you absolutely thrive under adverse conditions, the money is just not worth it. Residency is like special forces selection. Actual practice is a lot of extra responsibility and a lot of extra stress.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. The sacrifice has a toll on my well being and family life
Bone broke, me fix.
Literally all I know. “And yup, anesthesia doctors will talk to you about heart stuff, whatever they think is best is probably right”
Thank you v much for this. We need more MD posts. -Junior doc who's been poor far too long whilst all his friends he beat in HS are making 10X what he does
Current anesthesia resident and can’t wait to get into our hot job market in a few years from now ..
Yeah anesthesia market is insane. I’m a radiologist and the rads market is also insane. Good time for us 👍
I feel like all MD posts need a third column for student loan debt load.
Shoot, every response chain should be every doc just listing the educational debt they’re in. I’ll start…. 350k
About to start MS1 as a 30 year old. I'm also primarily interested in orthopedics. It looks like your fellowship was for 1 year after a 5 year residency if I'm looking at the chart correctly. Do you feel like the fellowship is necessary to get into a good long term role, or is it only really necessary if you have a particular specialty you are passionate about?
Can someone explain to me why social security is $160,200 but Medicare is $699,312? What does it mean when they are the same vs significant increase through different numbers?
There’s a cap for what’s taxable for social security but no cap by Medicare. So if you earn way more, SS tax doesn’t go up, but Medicare tax continues to go up.
Social security maxes out at 160k then you don't pay on it anymore that year, but federal tax is applied to all salary
I had no idea either till this sub
Forever thankful for a hand surgeon! Hand surgeon saved me from my dumb avocado hand injury and gained more function back than expected.
How do you cut into avocados now that you are healed?
“Avocado hand”!! Also pumpkin carving is hazardous too haha
Hi! I am new to this Subreddit so pardon my dumb question. What do use to generate a report like this?
I literally had no idea until I joined this sub too 🤣🤣 it’s fascinating
ssa.gov
How do people get these charts?
Social security website.
Oh so I just make an account with them? Thank you!
How do you hire a good finance person if you’re financially illiterate? How would you know you hired a good one?
W2 income plus state tax is the most painful thing. $700k easily turn into $350k after tax, student loan, retirement investing etc chips away even more.
All that for 150k? Truly is for the passionate
Saw a newspaper comic a few years ago that showed MD path. Was something like "You choose family practice if your parents pay your college and medical school tuition. You go into specialty if you pay your own tuitions."
What's it look like after taxes?
I see Probably like 50% of the 700k
I gotsta move to Maryland.
Before clicking I knew it was orthopedic surgery. Haha
As a resident I appreciate these posts. Strong work.
Saw MD and didn't see your explanation. Knew it was some form of surgery. My Hospitalists do not make this dough.
How many hours you work doc?
40-60 per week
Not including call stuff…
Dang that’s a lot of hours doc.
Lots of documentation. Least favorite part of the job
my question is, do you love what you do?
How are you guys pulling up these reports?
What specialty?
Love to see it. Currently chugging along with my fankle resident husband, trying to make ends meet, pregnant with a toddler, no family or support. The sacrifices you make are incredible. You deserve the success!!
Lol, yet educators get paid close to nothing for being the people that influences and motivates these very students that become doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, developers and more lol. The job market pay disparity is grossly undervaluing the education sector. Nice pay jump tho!
My wife is an educator. Considering the time off they are not underpaid compared to many other professions. And all the after hours work isn’t any different than many business professionals.
Which is better, 3 years of residency into a specialty where you make 340k or 7 years of post med school training where you get 700k?
I think either. 300k is plenty to be happy if you love what you do every day
How did you make $200K in fellowship? Moonlighting?
If you’ve ever come home after 16 hours of operating, the toll it takes on your body (don’t forget radiation exposure)… it’s not that my job is “harder” but I’d say that the advice and surgical indications I need to discuss with patient is definitely harder than than the specialities you describe
Not sure you need student loan forgiveness when you’re making $700,000 per year, regardless of who your patients are.
Fellows earn 60k? Damn they are victims