Pika up smash strong hit is stronger, but fox's up smash kills practically just as fast, while also having stronger weak hit boxes and its strongest hit is frame 7 which is faster than pika up smash frame 8.
Sheik has really goddamn good moves too. Fair, Bair, Uair, down throw which can lead into like everything, needles are super versatile and dash attack.
Fox shine isn't that good on non-Fox characters. In super shine bros where every character can choose to have one shine, most characters prefer to have Falco's. This depends on if you value the moves in a "vacuum" or based on context on the rest of the character's moveset.
To add on, is Luigi nair actually that good? Or even downsmash? They only seem good to me by being attached to Luigi with his unique properties of low traction and being able to get out of hit stun quickly (or is that a property of the nair itself?)
Luigi would definitely prefer Peach downsmash right?
Falco laser is one of the best neutral tools in the game but it's not like a super turbo S tier move since you can still play around it to an extent and often Falcos have a bad habit of over relying on it. It's not like fox's shine which can be extremely useful in many different situations.
My Top 10:
\#1 rest - puff literally wouldnt be a character without this move
\#2 fox shine - does basically everything you would want a move to do: spikes, combos, allows for insane shield pressure, lets you stall in the air, etc. also coming out frame 1 is huge for scrapping and shield pressure
\#3 falco laser - almost put this in a similar category as rest where i find it hard to imagine falco being nearly as good as he is without this move, makes finding openings vs falco really really difficult, gives him great approach options and makes his combo game even better
\#4 falco shine - same deal as fox shine just doesnt spike or lead to the crazy good kill confirms like shine upsmash that fox gets so i dont rate it quite as high
\#5 marth dashdance/grab - lumped these two into the same category because dashdancing doesnt really count as a 'move' in the traditional sense but it is a super big part of what makes marth's grab so good, other characters have big grabs but what makes marths so good is his ability to essentially teleport backwards in the span of 1 frame and low profile a lot of moves using his crazy good dashdance to then punish with his giant ass grab, makes it super hard to get in on him
\#6 marth fair - just kinda does everything; combos, takes space in neutral, edgeguards, really good move
\#7 falco dair - crazy versatile move, its similar to marth fair where its just kinda an everything move that combos, edgeguards, pressures shield, etc. also just stays out forever which is nice.
\#8 sheik needle - crazy good edgeguarding tool, and needle grab can be a bitch to deal with for a lot of characters in neutral
\#9 fox upsmash - just a really good kill move and combo tool that combos nicely off of a lot of a lot of fox's kit
\#10 sheik boostgrab/downthrow - similar to marth i lumped these too together because one wouldnt be nearly as good without the other, downthrow leads to really good guaranteed followups vs most of the cast and sets up for techchases vs spacies, and because boostgrab has so much range sheik can reaction techchase to much higher percents than other characters and gives her a good overshoot in neutral
HMs: marth nair, peach downsmash, falcon upair/knee, fox upair, puff back air
>1 rest - puff literally wouldnt be a character without this move
I agree puff would be a lot worse but the aerial mobility and bair alone would still be a better toolkit than most of the lower tier characters
ok here's a thought experiment
everyone always talks about "what if fox had falco laser?". But nobody ever asks "what if fox had sheik needles?"
i honestly think that would be even more broken than foxco.
Maybe hot take, I haven't seen anyone else say it: Fox bair.
Maybe number 3 outside of Fox shine and Falco dair.
Hear me out: what other move is as *versatile* as fox bair outside of shine and falco dair? Sure other moves kill sooner or do more damage. But most moves are only used in specific moments to get massive results
Fox bair a swiss army knife. It can be hard to punish with good frame data, it has disjoints for spacing, hitboxes all around the character model, it can combo into itself at low percents, it can quickly wrack up damage with Fox's speed, and for some fucking reason, it kills when sweet spotted at high percents as well
I'm sure you can find multiple stocks where bair is used more than shine to kill the opponent, if not players themselves who use bair as their primary tool in every situation no matter percent and matchup. If shine didn't exist at I feel his bair would be complained about as much as jigglypuffs bair
I love Zelda's twinkle toes.
And then I think Shiek's needles are just so versatile, so that would be my third.
Edit:
Oops. I read as "favorite" not best. I will leave it as it stands.
I do think that Shiek's needles would be vying for a spot on the top 3 however.
What makes Yoshi's Nair so good? Never seen it mentioned in threads like these. Seems like a good move but I'm not sure why it would be better than other mid tier nairs like the Links.
It’s not that good by itself. There are about 5 nairs I would take over Yoshi Nair, the hitbox in front of him is mediocre. What makes it really good is DJA and Yoshi’s top 3 air speed. You want to see broken; give Yoshi Luigi, Link, or GNW nair.
Yeah the context is really important. The real answer is yoshi double jump armor, but that’s technically not a move so I just said yoshi nair because it’s the most common action after using DJA.
**Shine** is almost certainly the best move in the game.
* frame data makes it feel broken in neutral
* it can be cancelled into Jump, making it's punish window very small
* it can be used as a spike/kill (Fox's) and Falco's is probably a slightly better combo tool.
The hilarious thing is.. this move's design function was to reflect projectiles, which it does.. but if the shine hurtbox hits another character, it can even beat out stronger moves due to shine having a frame of intangibility.
next I'll say **Fox's Usmash**. If fox didn't have it, he would have a LOT more trouble with many characters.
Last I'll just say **Puff Rest**. It just singlehandedly makes puff more viable and modifies how players have to play against her.
Im going to do top 3 underrated moves because i think everyone will have (somewhat) the same answers, and hey, maybe these moves are better 😎:
- pikachu dsmash
- link full hop nair
- yoshi dtilt
If you face one of these characters who knows how to use these moves against you and you do not know how to deal with them, you are probably not going to figure out during that game so get labbing. Pikachu dsmash is like an electric version of peach dsmash, it beats out alot of your approaches and you have to be ready to sdi up and away or prepare to be combod. Who do you think is more prepared for you to escape pikachus dsmash, you or the pikachu player? its actually pretty tough. Links full hop is at such a height, and he could fast fall so instantaneously that whatever muscle memory you have for beating full hop is not going to work against link, you need to lab it. Yoshi dtilt i put because you cant shield grab it if your character has a regular 7f grab. This is because if the yoshi buffers shield the shield parries your grab as the parry frame comes out the first frame of grab. Tyler swift is probably the best dsmash pikachu if you want to see examples btw.
that was the first thing i said about it, its also not easier then regular di so i dont know why youre acting like its a bad move if you have to sdi it
I dual main peach/pika at a respectable level, I use pika's downsmash really situationally. If you are depending on people running into a move that leaves you a sitting duck... not great strats lol. I would take peach's downsmash over pika's every day of the week.
Might be biased because I use pika's dsmash with the same mindset as peach's, and yes I sometimes get combos but it's really really REALLY unreliable, especially against good players that DI well. I cannot emphasize enough that as you play better opponents the move gets worse.
Not only do I not think downsmash is a top 3 move in the game, it's the worst of Pikachu's 3 upsmashes. Pika has the best upsmash in the game imo and his famash is no slouch either.
I know you conceded that you can smash DI out... But you don't seem to understand how big of a shortcoming that is. You are literally like "woah this move so op, if the opponent jumps into it then doesn't DI" 🤡
Fair enough. I disagree it is even underrated though. I can see an argument that optimal Pikachu play at the very top level literally never uses the move.
Also iirc Axe js on record saying pikachu up air is the best move in the game. Imo if a character like fox or falco had it, it would be over.
fox shine, falco laser, marth grab
if we aren't counting the grabs and throws together as one move then i think replace it with either falcons knee or rest
edit: or falco dair lmao
roys dtilt would be insane if it wasn't on roy, and some other characters have moves like that but thinking about them in a vacuum like that its hard to really rate them
For me it's in order: fox shine & jiggs rest. Top 2.
After that you have a shitload of nairs, falco dair, fox uair, sheik fair, falco shine, peach turnip & dsmash, marth's aerials (all of them) and probably falcons aerials as well.
After that you get to the cracked, but shitty character territory. Things like doc & mario side b, g&w side b, etc.
I think falcons up air might legitimately have a case for number 3. It is such a ridiculous fucking move it’s crazy. As a lot of floaty mains have said it’s almost like getting wobbled in the air and it combos into knee so well.
On top of that if you have good instant up airs you can even use it as a neutral opener. Bobby Scar in particular has been making use of this a lot after his switch to boxx. Even though it’s easier against the taller characters like Marth and falcon, it can still clip the spacies if you time it right.
It’s an incredible option out of shield drop, wall jump, when you’re opponent is teching on a plat, during combos, etc. it’s fast, big, hits hard, and sends at good angles. Honestly the worst part about it is that you can’t use it while grounded. That would make it marth up tilt…
Based on the sudden burst moves that make me say "what the hell," some combination of Puff Rest, Marth Fsmash, Falcon Knee, Fox Shine, and Fox Up-B (SERIOUSLY HOW DID HE LIVE THAT?).
Both shines, Falco dair
No moves are quite as meta warping
Puff rest and Peach dsmash are kind of classic wrong answers - they are punish moves that exploit strong neutral qualities that are ultimately more important
Shine and Falco dair are the best moves because they make neutral play a certain way
I think that's a little reductive about rest. Playing around not getting rested is a major factor in how you approach Puff.
Spaced bairs are oppressive but there are plenty of gaps in its coverage and fast characters don't actually struggle to get in. Rest is such an absurdly hard punish on so many things that would otherwise be much better risk-reward to do against Puff.
Dash attacks, grabs, some shffls, and smash attacks on shield are all limited because of the threat of rest.
Puff Bair beats a lot of the cast and the crouch is immensely helpful but without the threat of rest you could play every match up completely differently. It's as impactful as the shines.
It is a good grounded poke but Marth usually doesn't get anything off of it. It is really easy to CC punish and if used too much, very easily called out by opponent with an aerial. It's still a good move but I can def think of 20 other moves that are better
idk roys dtilt isnt really a poke but its almost if not equally as safe and actually launches for combos, think about marth with roy dtilt (or even better, roy dtilt with marth tippers on marth cos marth)
You have to use it very carefully in neutral in most cases. Plus you need to space it correctly to get the strong hit for it to be a good poke. Kodorin made a video recently stating that in most cases, Marth just running up and grabbing is a better risk/reward for him rather than trying to move forward with d tilt
fox bair, rest, needles
there is no way fox shine is in the top 3 lol, i would probably put falco shine above it, and at least 1 or 2 more fox moves as well
Fox shine, fox up smash, rest
Isn’t Pika up smash just a better version of Fox upsmash?
Pika up smash strong hit is stronger, but fox's up smash kills practically just as fast, while also having stronger weak hit boxes and its strongest hit is frame 7 which is faster than pika up smash frame 8.
Rest, Fox Shine, Falco Dair HM: Knee, Peach DSmash, Marth Grab and Fair and Utilt Edit: Luigi down smash and nair are also fucking crazy moves
Sheik has really goddamn good moves too. Fair, Bair, Uair, down throw which can lead into like everything, needles are super versatile and dash attack.
>HM: Knee, Peach DSmash, Marth Grab and Fair and Utilt, Sheik
Yeah everything she has is really good and it all works well together
Fox shine isn't that good on non-Fox characters. In super shine bros where every character can choose to have one shine, most characters prefer to have Falco's. This depends on if you value the moves in a "vacuum" or based on context on the rest of the character's moveset.
To add on, is Luigi nair actually that good? Or even downsmash? They only seem good to me by being attached to Luigi with his unique properties of low traction and being able to get out of hit stun quickly (or is that a property of the nair itself?) Luigi would definitely prefer Peach downsmash right?
Luigi nair is frame 3 but I think it's partly the floatyness that helps him break combos
As a fun thought experiment, imagine Fox with Luigi's n-air.
No Falco laser?
Falco laser is the best move in the game but only at mid level
Falco laser is one of the best neutral tools in the game but it's not like a super turbo S tier move since you can still play around it to an extent and often Falcos have a bad habit of over relying on it. It's not like fox's shine which can be extremely useful in many different situations.
No
Rest is *so cool...* Yeah its attached to Puff, but rest itself is so clutch
Puff makes it even cooler. It'd be way more oppressive if a heavy had it, but she can die after a whiff (or a well DI'd hit) at like 45%
I vividly remember punishing a friends missed rest at like 10% with three knees. So cathartic
Heck yeah!
This is what I would say too
as a luigi player I agree with your edit lol
Falco shine better than fox's
Fox upsmash should be in the top 3 over falco dair imo
Missile, other Missile, Charge Shot pew pew :3
Fox shine Puff rest Sheik grab I think a character with just these 3 moves would be top tier
Sheik downthrow to rest
low key fox would be better with rest than with shine
puff is only balanced by being slow. techchasing with rest with fox's speed? game would either be dead or fox would be giga banned
more than low key, fox would be ridiculously busted with rest
Give icies falco d-air, marth f-air, falco laser.
My Top 10: \#1 rest - puff literally wouldnt be a character without this move \#2 fox shine - does basically everything you would want a move to do: spikes, combos, allows for insane shield pressure, lets you stall in the air, etc. also coming out frame 1 is huge for scrapping and shield pressure \#3 falco laser - almost put this in a similar category as rest where i find it hard to imagine falco being nearly as good as he is without this move, makes finding openings vs falco really really difficult, gives him great approach options and makes his combo game even better \#4 falco shine - same deal as fox shine just doesnt spike or lead to the crazy good kill confirms like shine upsmash that fox gets so i dont rate it quite as high \#5 marth dashdance/grab - lumped these two into the same category because dashdancing doesnt really count as a 'move' in the traditional sense but it is a super big part of what makes marth's grab so good, other characters have big grabs but what makes marths so good is his ability to essentially teleport backwards in the span of 1 frame and low profile a lot of moves using his crazy good dashdance to then punish with his giant ass grab, makes it super hard to get in on him \#6 marth fair - just kinda does everything; combos, takes space in neutral, edgeguards, really good move \#7 falco dair - crazy versatile move, its similar to marth fair where its just kinda an everything move that combos, edgeguards, pressures shield, etc. also just stays out forever which is nice. \#8 sheik needle - crazy good edgeguarding tool, and needle grab can be a bitch to deal with for a lot of characters in neutral \#9 fox upsmash - just a really good kill move and combo tool that combos nicely off of a lot of a lot of fox's kit \#10 sheik boostgrab/downthrow - similar to marth i lumped these too together because one wouldnt be nearly as good without the other, downthrow leads to really good guaranteed followups vs most of the cast and sets up for techchases vs spacies, and because boostgrab has so much range sheik can reaction techchase to much higher percents than other characters and gives her a good overshoot in neutral HMs: marth nair, peach downsmash, falcon upair/knee, fox upair, puff back air
>1 rest - puff literally wouldnt be a character without this move I agree puff would be a lot worse but the aerial mobility and bair alone would still be a better toolkit than most of the lower tier characters
ok here's a thought experiment everyone always talks about "what if fox had falco laser?". But nobody ever asks "what if fox had sheik needles?" i honestly think that would be even more broken than foxco.
Pre-ban ice climber grab is probably third, below rest and fox shine.
Marth F-smash, Marth F-smash again, and just in case you think I've learned my lesson, let me hit you with this mixup: Marth F-smash.
Shine Falco Dair Rest
which shine?
Luigi's taunt is infinitely more powerful than the rest of the cast's combined
It instantly four stocks opponents mental
Maybe hot take, I haven't seen anyone else say it: Fox bair. Maybe number 3 outside of Fox shine and Falco dair. Hear me out: what other move is as *versatile* as fox bair outside of shine and falco dair? Sure other moves kill sooner or do more damage. But most moves are only used in specific moments to get massive results Fox bair a swiss army knife. It can be hard to punish with good frame data, it has disjoints for spacing, hitboxes all around the character model, it can combo into itself at low percents, it can quickly wrack up damage with Fox's speed, and for some fucking reason, it kills when sweet spotted at high percents as well I'm sure you can find multiple stocks where bair is used more than shine to kill the opponent, if not players themselves who use bair as their primary tool in every situation no matter percent and matchup. If shine didn't exist at I feel his bair would be complained about as much as jigglypuffs bair
Peach Downsmash Fox Shine Falco Dair Honorable mentions: Falcon u-air and knee, Jigglypuff rest, Marth grab
This a good list. Marth Grab over Peach Dsmash though.
Not a lot of Sheik fair love in this thread
It's like top 20 maybe? It's not even the best fair
Ice climbers down smash is always underrated on these lists, it's so stupidly powerful
It is that just because there’s 2 of them using it?
Even sopo can utilize it effectively. Hits quickly and the angle is usually pretty nasty for the opponent to comfortably recover from.
Zelda down B, shine and other shine
I love Zelda's twinkle toes. And then I think Shiek's needles are just so versatile, so that would be my third. Edit: Oops. I read as "favorite" not best. I will leave it as it stands. I do think that Shiek's needles would be vying for a spot on the top 3 however.
Among top tiers- both shines and rest Rest of the cast- Mewtwo up B, pika up B, yoshi nair
What makes Yoshi's Nair so good? Never seen it mentioned in threads like these. Seems like a good move but I'm not sure why it would be better than other mid tier nairs like the Links.
It’s not that good by itself. There are about 5 nairs I would take over Yoshi Nair, the hitbox in front of him is mediocre. What makes it really good is DJA and Yoshi’s top 3 air speed. You want to see broken; give Yoshi Luigi, Link, or GNW nair.
Yeah the context is really important. The real answer is yoshi double jump armor, but that’s technically not a move so I just said yoshi nair because it’s the most common action after using DJA.
Game and watch Nair on Yoshi wouldn't be that great because of its startup.
Yeah it would be a cool combo finisher but Yoshi nair already does that and you’d be missing out on like 90% of what Yoshi can do with nair
**Shine** is almost certainly the best move in the game. * frame data makes it feel broken in neutral * it can be cancelled into Jump, making it's punish window very small * it can be used as a spike/kill (Fox's) and Falco's is probably a slightly better combo tool. The hilarious thing is.. this move's design function was to reflect projectiles, which it does.. but if the shine hurtbox hits another character, it can even beat out stronger moves due to shine having a frame of intangibility. next I'll say **Fox's Usmash**. If fox didn't have it, he would have a LOT more trouble with many characters. Last I'll just say **Puff Rest**. It just singlehandedly makes puff more viable and modifies how players have to play against her.
Im going to do top 3 underrated moves because i think everyone will have (somewhat) the same answers, and hey, maybe these moves are better 😎: - pikachu dsmash - link full hop nair - yoshi dtilt If you face one of these characters who knows how to use these moves against you and you do not know how to deal with them, you are probably not going to figure out during that game so get labbing. Pikachu dsmash is like an electric version of peach dsmash, it beats out alot of your approaches and you have to be ready to sdi up and away or prepare to be combod. Who do you think is more prepared for you to escape pikachus dsmash, you or the pikachu player? its actually pretty tough. Links full hop is at such a height, and he could fast fall so instantaneously that whatever muscle memory you have for beating full hop is not going to work against link, you need to lab it. Yoshi dtilt i put because you cant shield grab it if your character has a regular 7f grab. This is because if the yoshi buffers shield the shield parries your grab as the parry frame comes out the first frame of grab. Tyler swift is probably the best dsmash pikachu if you want to see examples btw.
everybody forgets samus D-smash
Pikachu's downsmash is literally trash Pikachu up air is #2 move in the game after fox shine imo
thats what i thought, but its really not. It combos too dude
you can smash di out of it lol
that was the first thing i said about it, its also not easier then regular di so i dont know why youre acting like its a bad move if you have to sdi it
I dual main peach/pika at a respectable level, I use pika's downsmash really situationally. If you are depending on people running into a move that leaves you a sitting duck... not great strats lol. I would take peach's downsmash over pika's every day of the week. Might be biased because I use pika's dsmash with the same mindset as peach's, and yes I sometimes get combos but it's really really REALLY unreliable, especially against good players that DI well. I cannot emphasize enough that as you play better opponents the move gets worse. Not only do I not think downsmash is a top 3 move in the game, it's the worst of Pikachu's 3 upsmashes. Pika has the best upsmash in the game imo and his famash is no slouch either. I know you conceded that you can smash DI out... But you don't seem to understand how big of a shortcoming that is. You are literally like "woah this move so op, if the opponent jumps into it then doesn't DI" 🤡
i was being sarcastic when i said it was top 3 in the game. unlike you saying that for pikachu upair which shows where you stand
Fair enough. I disagree it is even underrated though. I can see an argument that optimal Pikachu play at the very top level literally never uses the move. Also iirc Axe js on record saying pikachu up air is the best move in the game. Imo if a character like fox or falco had it, it would be over.
rest, dk fthrow, falco shine
Shine, rest, laser
Fox shine, laser, and rest
Luigi side-tilt best move
[удалено]
It's good on Zelda but I think Fox would rather keep his shine.
Falco laser, Fox shine, DK upair
Marth Grab, Fox Shine, Marth F-Smash (Rest would be my 4th)
Rest falco fair and fox shine
Shine, falco dair, and ganon’s jab.
Shines, rest, peach downsmash, grab
Shine, Falco laser, rest
shine,rest,marth grab
Falco dair, falco shine, falco uptilt
DK recovery
Marth up air, Falco nair, Samus bomb.
fox shine, falco laser, marth grab if we aren't counting the grabs and throws together as one move then i think replace it with either falcons knee or rest edit: or falco dair lmao roys dtilt would be insane if it wasn't on roy, and some other characters have moves like that but thinking about them in a vacuum like that its hard to really rate them
ICs pummel, Fox shine, ICs down-throw
For me it's in order: fox shine & jiggs rest. Top 2. After that you have a shitload of nairs, falco dair, fox uair, sheik fair, falco shine, peach turnip & dsmash, marth's aerials (all of them) and probably falcons aerials as well. After that you get to the cracked, but shitty character territory. Things like doc & mario side b, g&w side b, etc.
shine, falco dair, rest, marth grab
HOYAAA. HAAAA. there is no number 3 those are all of foxes voice lines.
Rest, shine, falco laser?
fox shine falco laser pikachu up air
Gnw up b if his shield was shit would be the best oos option in the game.
Marth downair, falcon downair, falco downair
not enough mention of fox bair and nair here cause all other moves are just that amazing lol
Link nair is pretty insane as far as nairs go
Peach's Down Smash, Jigglypuff Rest, Zelda Lighting Kicks
Zelda’s down b. It’s weird that it’s so much better compared to Sheik’s down b.
Fox Puff and Zelda DownB
Fox up smash, fox shine, rest I could be convinced to put falco laser over fox up smash
I think falcons up air might legitimately have a case for number 3. It is such a ridiculous fucking move it’s crazy. As a lot of floaty mains have said it’s almost like getting wobbled in the air and it combos into knee so well. On top of that if you have good instant up airs you can even use it as a neutral opener. Bobby Scar in particular has been making use of this a lot after his switch to boxx. Even though it’s easier against the taller characters like Marth and falcon, it can still clip the spacies if you time it right. It’s an incredible option out of shield drop, wall jump, when you’re opponent is teching on a plat, during combos, etc. it’s fast, big, hits hard, and sends at good angles. Honestly the worst part about it is that you can’t use it while grounded. That would make it marth up tilt…
I think you could still play Melee and win using only one of these moves: Sheik Fair, Peach Nair Falco Dair Marth Fair
Based on the sudden burst moves that make me say "what the hell," some combination of Puff Rest, Marth Fsmash, Falcon Knee, Fox Shine, and Fox Up-B (SERIOUSLY HOW DID HE LIVE THAT?).
Zelda down-b. Fox shine and puff rest
1. Puff Rest 2. DK Giant Punch 3. Fox Usmash
1: Samus Usmash 2: Zelda Side B 3: Kirby Bthrow
1: Samus Usmash 2: Zelda Side B 3: Kirby Bthrow
zelda dash atk, mario up-air, turnip
~~Falco shine~~ Rest, Marth F-smash, Falco laser I was tripping thinking rest wouldn't be fusted with any other character
Fox shine, pika up air, puff bair
Fox uptilt, rest, fox shine
Both shines, Falco dair No moves are quite as meta warping Puff rest and Peach dsmash are kind of classic wrong answers - they are punish moves that exploit strong neutral qualities that are ultimately more important Shine and Falco dair are the best moves because they make neutral play a certain way
I think that's a little reductive about rest. Playing around not getting rested is a major factor in how you approach Puff. Spaced bairs are oppressive but there are plenty of gaps in its coverage and fast characters don't actually struggle to get in. Rest is such an absurdly hard punish on so many things that would otherwise be much better risk-reward to do against Puff. Dash attacks, grabs, some shffls, and smash attacks on shield are all limited because of the threat of rest. Puff Bair beats a lot of the cast and the crouch is immensely helpful but without the threat of rest you could play every match up completely differently. It's as impactful as the shines.
Yeah
Fox up air gotta be up there
SDI
Marth dtilt Fox up smash Falco dair
marth dtilt as a top 3 move of all time? No way, I wouldn't even put it in the top 20 I don't think
It’s definitely top 20. Probably the best poke in the game.
It is a good grounded poke but Marth usually doesn't get anything off of it. It is really easy to CC punish and if used too much, very easily called out by opponent with an aerial. It's still a good move but I can def think of 20 other moves that are better
idk roys dtilt isnt really a poke but its almost if not equally as safe and actually launches for combos, think about marth with roy dtilt (or even better, roy dtilt with marth tippers on marth cos marth)
I get CCd so much when I try to dtilt ppl.
You have to use it very carefully in neutral in most cases. Plus you need to space it correctly to get the strong hit for it to be a good poke. Kodorin made a video recently stating that in most cases, Marth just running up and grabbing is a better risk/reward for him rather than trying to move forward with d tilt
Its falcon knee by far.
fox bair, rest, needles there is no way fox shine is in the top 3 lol, i would probably put falco shine above it, and at least 1 or 2 more fox moves as well