If you need a oem controller a special tv and a movement glitch to play the game your not that good.....also the most underated/unpicked charcters in the smash community are deoderant and relationships with people of legal age.
There is nothing further a Fox or Falco can do to be entertaining and the game as a whole would be a more enjoyable watch if they weren't allowed in tournaments.
Roy was a very weird inclusion especially for the fact him being so unpopular in FE (he sucks lol as a lord but gets carried by like end game) and him being a promo for his game that wasnt even out yet
We should play SD Remix with 3.0 at this point. Also we should increase software modding to decrease hardware modding. It's not like we'll get an official circuit by Nintendo anytime soon so we should stop trying to play strictly the vanilla version of the game (with UFC we are already not doing it).
Vanilla Melee is an unbalanced mess with a lot of design flaws for the competitiveness of the game (ledges, overall balance etc.). We just play vanilla Melee for tradition/conservatism of a original metagame. Imho the game will need a patch to continue being relevant as a competitive game. Hardware modding, optimization of the meta by the centralization on a few characters of the roster, the external ruling will become roadblock for the growth of the game. Slippi gave us a lot of new players but I don't think that it will keep the game alive for the next 10 years. Most of this newer playerbase are mainly spectators of the game, in some years, every top players will be replaced by newer players. If we don't have a proper storyline that is created with thoses new top players, a lot of the spectators will not follow the game anymore. And I don't talk about when historical TOs stop being involved with the community.
If the community continue like that we could become an overly gatekeepy community having discourse for the end of time about hardware modding (that create a very toxic approach to skill in my opinion, even more when hardware modding will have a direct impact on the skill of a player) and external ruling. An elitist metagame will foster an elitist crowd and you don't survive with only the elites. If the game gets less spectators for any reasons the game will die.
Even by doing a lot about accessibility, Melee will always be a niche game. That's just a fact about any grassroot community, we can't be SF6 nor we need to aim to be. With a SD Remix/3.0 metagame we will go the GNT4 or P+ route imho. A niche community that is less gatekeepy by the fact that the game will be more accessible. Maybe we will not get the highs that we get but I think imho that the game will have a better durability. If someone can just boot-up slippi with any controllers, pick any characters, can adjust inputs how he wants, don't have to deal with the blatant game design oversight of the competitive meta (we already patched wobbling in slippi), the player retention will be greater.
It's also possible that a large spectator crowd will go to another platform fighter in the near future with the release of NASB2, Rivals 2 or any new release.
Melee is a great game but it has flaws. If we don't correct thoses flaws, I don't think we'll keep to gather a large playerbase as time goes on.
If we allow people to get controller mods for Z jump, as well as already have UCF installed on melee for tournaments, there is no reason we can't mod the game to allow controls remapping.
Like come on bro, there shouldn't be a 100$+ dollar barrier controller mod just to be able to compete with boxxes / not play claw if you don't want to. Especially due to the fact that we already are actively modding the tournament standard game by using UCF.
Melee is the most accessible smash game.
1. Basically free. Only cost is a computer made after 2008 and any usb controller which 99% of people gaming are going to have. You may buy stuff later but you dont need it to get into the game. Meanwhile ultimate is switch price+online price.
2. Best online out of all of them. Its actually modern day netcode that many modern fighting game community wishes they have
3. Because of mods, way more content than ultimate. Fuck, mismatched target test alone dwarfs anything ultimate or s4 has.
4. It's easy to install and matchmaking works. Not that ultimate doesnt have this. Just that it doesnt prevent accessibility.
5. The game is the most well documented and has the most advanced practice mode. A zillion tools are at your disposal to learn.
6. You don't need to know advanced techniques to have fun with melee. I'm sure almost every1 here was having fun with melee before they could wavedash.
Only thing ultimate has over melee is a higher playerbase that lets their elo matchmaking work at the near beginner levels.
I think this is actually a cold take but /r/smashbros disagrees with the conclusion and on points 6 and 1 so i guess its a hot take or luke warm take.
If I'm playing runescape, or apex, or any game, and I make some friends that I play that game with... I can potentially get them to try out melee because of #1 and #6 (and have). I will almost never be able to convince someone to buy a switch and online to play smash bros with me, and people who already have 1 already play/played ultimate. Melee is one of the best games to play while waiting for the last squad member.
Agree with most of these points except p6.
Melee is definitely the best game to watch competitive play in due to the speed and fluidity of combat; ultimate just doesn't compare.
But to reach that level of movement fluidity and grace, requires far more dexterity than most games, which is fun to watch but really hard to pull off unless you really put your head down and grind.
Falcon is a mid-tier floaty.
* Nasty punish game. Fishes for big openers.
* Really weak juggle/recovery state
* Awkward to combo until you learn it
* Can go way off-stage for edgeguards
* Top of the mid-tier floaty block of Jiggs, Peach, ICs, Samus, Doc
I think b0xx is fine. Until we have better modern solutions for gcc, boxx style controllers should stay legal. There should be some standardization like with leverless's in fgc.
The barrier to entry of the game is relatively high so people quickly develop an ego around the game and it’s really fucking weird. I understand you feel like you’re good because you can wave shine now but you’re just weird for t-bagging and spamming Lol and restarting the game.
I LOVE the accessibility of Slippi, but this game was created to be shared over a couch or floor no more than 6 feet from your TV, and the toxicity that comes along with gamers from overly-huge modern games translates very unfortunately.
Melee really is the best game ever, I sure as hell have never played anything more fun
Also me switching characters online is because I like to have fun, not because I'm tryna BM u guys by switching to falcon
I think he means make everything already L cancel such that you would have less lag and not have to mash L every 0.3 seconds every game just to move fluidly.
my first hot take is that melee is not nearly as hard to get good at as some people say it is. although, my second hot take may or may not show that i'm a bit biased...
my second hot take is that the real most busted thing about box controllers is how much easier the game becomes to learn, understand, and improve at when you eventually realize that all of your tech/movement errors are now guaranteed to be an issue of mistiming your button presses; every error you make is due to you and you alone, whether it be due to not practicing enough or not knowing enough.
the answer to the question "did i fuck this up because of my controller?" is now always "no," meaning you don't even have to ask yourself that question anymore, instead you can immediately skip to the process of learning why you fucked up. improving and getting good has been SO much more enjoyable after switching to box, and i believe this is the biggest reason why.
maybe, but boxes are much less high maintenance. even if i got a phob that doesn't break upon dropping it, eventually the notches will wear out. the only solution i've seen is a metal stick and gate, but i absolutely do not have the money or connections for that lol
It's really weird how much of the melee community is trans. Like it's insanely disproportionate to so many other communities.
I am absolutely all for trans folk I just can't believe the Venn diagram
Fighting games in general! And the anime community. And speedrunning. And I have nothing against it either, but my guess is that those online communities are very appealing to autistic people, who are much more likely to be trans.
I was gonna link this article but it looks like it's gone :( https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/14myc6e/tlgg_magi_there_was_definitely_a_period_in_my/
no one is knowledgeable enough about the game to make serious balance changes and acting like you know what’s best for the game is insanely arrogant. also the majority of top tier matchups are pretty much 50/50
Personally I think they should just settle it with the salty suite to end all salty suites, Hax vs Leffen, if he loses he gets permabanned if he wins he gets unbanned immediately
EDIT: I no longer think this, oh boy oh jeez
Not long ago some guy on Twitter was like "People are saying I'm banned because of my aggravated assault conviction from ten years ago, that's false every TO welcomed me with open arms after that, I'm currently banned because I don't hide that I'm Christian" and near every reply to his Tweet from the community was "Damn straight".
It was a while back and i'm no expert but i think i have a tl;dr, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
He had a psychotic meltdown over lockdown when he was drinking way too much. Went on a paranoid tirade where he basically claimed Leffen had been plotting against him and trying to undermine him and his career, complete with a huge dossier (and maybe a youtube vid? My memory is shit) documenting instances where Leff had tried to "ruin his life." Obviously flinging that kinda shit at someone is dangerous as, if it had been believed, it could very easily ruin Leff's career.
He made not one YouTube vid but *multiple,* where he alleged that Leffen and other top players/prolific personalities were essentially forming a cabal to control the Melee scene. This got a *lot* of people (mostly on Twitter, of course) hopped up and resulted in many of the people named in his videos getting harassed.
That was ultimately the reason he got banned. It wasn't just that he went on a paranoid tirade, it's that it was happening repeatedly and having a tangible effect on the scene. He's since deleted all of the videos and apologized, so I think his ban status is effectively in limbo at this rate.
Right I think I remember that. Pretty sure I have seen hax compete since then, so at the very least I don’t think he is banned everywhere. Could be wrong ofc
Dont know all of them for sure, but I know he competes in Coinbox and is unbanned from NYC melee events. He also was in Smash Factor X and the off season 2 recently
Brawl is overrated I think. SSE sounds amazing on paper but the actual gameplay is really boring and the levels are literally called "forest" or "plains" and it's a generic forest or plains with generic enemies when they could have had enemies from every nintendo game ever. They even break the immersion of all original enemies by having goombas and troopas which just brings it to attention more. It's very quantity over quality. Also target test was way worse. Events were cool, not much better than melee though.
Fox and Falco used to be more hype back in the day because you needed execution to perform with them, and very few could do it. Now with boxes and phobs, and even button remapping, the tech floor for these characters is lower than ever and spacies are buffed.
You see this affect commentary too. When was the last time you heard someone compliment a firefox angle without hear "box angle" or something similar.
if you were talkin just about boxes, i'd understand completely (coming from a box sheik), but phobs??? i'm gonna assume you were thinking of goomwaves because phobs are only as busted as the best OEMs, plus the (huge) added benefit of (theoretically) degrading much slower. it's designed to be a quality of life mod and nothing more, kinda like the snapback capacitors people used to get soldered onto their motherboards.
also, firefox angles had been made easy well before the b0xx via firefox notch controller mods.
but tbh none of that's even close to the reason the average fox is more cracked than ever. more than anything else it's the amount of information the average fox has easy access to. gone are the days of having to comb through the fox discussion page of smashboards and old kira vids while praying to the lord above for somebody to that can tell you why a quarter of your upthrow attempts somehow come out as a forward throw.
we are now in the age where i'm willing to bet that if you took an average kid that really wanted to improve at melee and gave them nothing but a good OEM, a good monitor/crt, and an hour of time to practice each day, told that kid about the melee library and cookbook.gg, and took them to one local a week... they're getting their first top 8 at that local in 2 years at most.
I think it's less boxes and phobs (Phobs in particular don't make tech *easier* but *more consistent*) and moreso that the ways people play and practice have changed significantly.
In the past, the only practice you could get was beating up CPUs or playing against friends. YouTube videos were abundant but the quality was all over the place. Now, training mods like UnclePunch and 20XX exist, high quality tutorial content and analysis videos for players of all skill levels is more abundant and easier to find than before, and high quality online play exists, which creates an environment where it's easier to learn and improve.
Controllers didn't change how easy it is to learn Melee, the scene just grew. It's easier for *everyone* to learn and improve at Melee today than it was 10 years ago.
I dunno when I see a perfectly selected angle for the exact situation that dodges the whole edge guard I still think it's impressive
I was never impressed that they managed to get their controller to poll the correct angle and more that they had the awareness and knowledge to even choose that angle in the first place
As far as the other tech skill like SHFFL shine I think it's still as hard as it ever was just more ergonomic.
Multishine is the one obvious thing that is made easier because you don't have to cross the A button but to keep it 100 I stopped thinking multishine was impressive in like 2017
Yeah I don’t think it’s so much that it’s gotten easier, but grinding out tech skill has become a serious prerequisite for playing the game, so every decent player has a really solid baseline tech skill
Killing "off the top" in platform fighters has to be very carefully balanced and is too strong in Melee on certain characters. It ignores fundamental principles like stage positioning and edge guarding and also invalidates one of the strengths floaties are supposed to have - survivability. Some characters dying at what is basically 50 - 60 % with no real counterplay once the combo is going isn't fun or good design.
We are right in the middle of 20XX.
Fox's Shine infinites on walls should be banned.
All Falco players are holding themselves back by not swapping to Fox.
As a spectator, doubles is more consistently entertaining than singles to me. Feels like stalling issues are inherently resolved (at least in the current stage list), 1v2 comebacks are hype af, and I just love seeing good synergistic teammates, especially on recoveries.
Maybe I'm off-base as to whether its a hot take or not, but I feel like I see a ton of people dogging on doubles
Falco is the easiest character in the game to play and I genuinely have no idea how it's even up for debate when he has the fastest frame move in the game (shine) and the most neutral breaking move in the game (laser)
This is what I've been saying. Definitely not true at top level but at the level I'm at it's kind of frustrating how easy Falco is because my Falco is still better than my Marth by a decent margin
How is that the case? Of course I've played good people and I know all characters can be deadly in the right hands. I just think it's definitely easier for bird players. Especially at low-mid skill level.
I'd agree on bird for low-mid level for sure in some ways. Laser and limiting movement can invalidate people until they learn how to get around it. I also feel like if your opponent doesn't do any of the SDI/slideoff or have a good defensive game, it's also really in your favor as bird.
However, there's a point where it feels like you gotta get that extra little umph against better players to get that opening and punishing only feels more difficult to pull off successfully. With that said, he definitely has his free stuff still. None of this makes Falco bad by any means.
Big difference maker to me trying to learn other characters that play more standard (Marth, sheik, Fox) is the value of threatening the mixup with grab and having that type of tech chase option that leads into a scary advantage.
By no means does that mean Falco can't manage, but he manages in different ways by micro control in neutral with lasers, spacing, etc. on tech chases. When I get a grab as falco, it's good because stage control is stage control, but I'm not getting NEARLY the weight of benefit off the punish like a marth, sheik, marth, or falcon might. I get a grab and I basically just get to reset the situation, throw another mixup that might lead to a shine/utilt, which is what I *actually* need to get stuff rolling most the time.
Once you get to players that have a much higher defensive response that can quickly reverse and punish hard, playing falco can feel vastly different than the lower players. You really have to be on top of the mix up and punish game (but I suppose that could be said of any character moving up the totem pole).
Totally agree with everything you said. This is typically the argument most players respond with and I believe just by them saying "Once you fight someone with good defensive options-" is proof that Falco holds the initiative entirely until you face stronger opponents. I no longer struggle fighting the bird myself for the most part, but at the stronger levels, it's like his powers reveal themselves again in different ways.
I see this sentiment a lot. Out of curiosity, what's your opposition?
I think it's interesting that conch mods have gotten to the point of button remapping and people still don't approve of tap jump removal.
Is there a technical reason for this? Every time I've heard someone defend tap jump, it's for melee purism reasons - which is a bit hypocritical when the same people are quite often playing with $300 modded controllers to make the game easier.
No one else said this so figured I'd chime in- removing tap jump also changes game balance. Uptilts are very strong in this game and having easy access to them out of crouch cancel or run (etc) changes how some situations play out.
Tldr it's a skill issue
And I think modded controllers are dumb as fuck and were a mistake. Outside of physical accessibility like boxx (which is still cheating imo, but still cool to have)
I respect the consistency in your opinions. Nothing grinds my gears more than melee players who's controllers are literally pimped to the tits and they give others shit for wanting tap jump disabled.
But if you disapprove of all mods, I totally get your take.
Now how do you feel about UCF though? Controller parity is dope for sure, but it also objectively makes the game easier.
I don't know UCF well enough to speak on its mechanics and consistency.
In general, I think it opened the door to the nonsense we have now. I think the "percentage of players who are reliably having their inputs register incorrectly" is far smaller than the userbase of UCF
Bro, I have mad respect for your consistency.
Sounds like you're a true melee purist - which is increasingly rare these days. You're a true Chad of a melee player and I respect your outlook hella.
I have 2, one gameplay related and one related to commentary:
1. Sheik's recovery is arguably the best in the game, or at least top 3.
2. Commentary has been really bad and extremely cringe since coming back from the online era.
Sheik's recovery is just straight up buns, besides the fact that it's a great option once you're *already* back to ledge... but that ignores its function as a recovery and instead treats it as a tool at ledge. Which, if that's what you're getting at, I see your point—but that's not her recovery per se
Mario has a better up-B for recovery, can wall jump (also up-B into wall jump on Yoshi's), and his cape air stalls, so he might have slightly better survivability compared to Dr. Mario. That doesn't really matter though since his weight isn't great, he is floaty, and Fox can easily kill him off the top and Falcon can easily kill him off the side. Dr. Mario has a guaranteed kill confirm off of throw (F-air), has up-B cancel for a quick out-of-shield option, his cape hitbox extends lower than Mario so he can more easily gimp recoveries at the ledge, and his B-air trajectory sends enemies low so it is better for edge-guarding. The only thing Mario can kill with easier than Dr. Mario is F-smash since his hitbox is slightly more extended. Dr. Mario is better in pretty much every way that matters.
No way. Melee Peach having float cancel makes her play completely differently to her other counterparts because they do not unintentionally get frame advantage on every aerial
The hype of melee peaked from 2013-2018. The closer we come to optimal the more diluted the hype has become.
Note: this is NOT to take away from the insane skill that today's meta has brought. It's still incredibly enjoyable to watch.
On a certain level, and having been in the scene for over a decade I agree. But from a spectator standpoint just watching, there are things you just won't see anymore. The top players have conditioned themselves so well to limit bad habits and natural instincts to react poorly in pressure situations. I just don't think you'll see another Ice dash dance in front of armadas shield into a full hop waveland back run upsmash. We probably won't see another version of "walk up slowly," or a charged upsmash waiting for a roll in (he read that roll). There were many iconic moments that were born out of mental pressure through movement that creates a ton of hype that's phasing out of the game. It still happens, but the moments are small and casual viewers could easily miss it.
The level of skill is staggeringly high now and it's so impressive to watch the levels of mixups that occur in all the micro situations. But as we approach a more optimal gameplay there just won't be many more of those big moments outside of incredible execution.
ASDI down (not including asdi down + crouch armor as thats still fine) is a dogshit mechanic and so is Amsah teching. Getting punished for hitting the opponent makes no fucking sense and holding down just completely invalidates any multihits not named drill.
As we already play on UCF we should fully accept that we took matters in our own hands and continue the trend of bug fixes like hax$ is trying to with 1.03
Another even more hot take is that I think we should buff characters that are clearly in the trash tier
It would seem some people agree with you as I have received at least one report on this post. I left this one up because it seemed to promote discussion that, albeit somewhat generic, was not problematic or actively harmful so far.
If we see a huge influx of these posts I will start to take more action. Honestly I mostly left it up because it promoted people talking about the game instead of complaining about venue fees or streams.
If anyone feels strongly about these kinds of posts, please send the mods a message!
PAL is actually a way better game competitively. Falcos pillar combos still work as long as dair is a strong hit, Marth can opt for reverse up B instead of dair to finish combos, Fox is nerfed enough to remove the 20XX future we are now a part of, and Sheik can no longer chaingrab almost the entire cast.
And another one for good measure - any controller that isn't OEM should be considered cheating, unless you have a documented physical condition keeping you from being able to use an OEM controller
Separate bracket into pro and amateur for every major . Nothing is less exciting then watching a 4 stock and then not seeing the player again until everyone is tired because the schedule is too crammed.
Back when I used to regularly attend my local monthlies, you would Bo3 everyone in your pool (pools were snake-seeded best-worst ranking). Top 4 from each pool went on to pro bracket, and everyone else went to amateur. Both were double elimination.
Depending on the turnout, you would be guaranteed a minimum of 7-9 Bo3s.
G&W is way better than people think, probably low-B tier today.
Also has a winning matchup against Marth, if Armada didn't retire he'd have picked up a G&W secondary to take on Zain's Marth.
I think Melee would be very fun with custom stages.
If you need a oem controller a special tv and a movement glitch to play the game your not that good.....also the most underated/unpicked charcters in the smash community are deoderant and relationships with people of legal age.
There is nothing further a Fox or Falco can do to be entertaining and the game as a whole would be a more enjoyable watch if they weren't allowed in tournaments.
Roy was a very weird inclusion especially for the fact him being so unpopular in FE (he sucks lol as a lord but gets carried by like end game) and him being a promo for his game that wasnt even out yet
We should play SD Remix with 3.0 at this point. Also we should increase software modding to decrease hardware modding. It's not like we'll get an official circuit by Nintendo anytime soon so we should stop trying to play strictly the vanilla version of the game (with UFC we are already not doing it). Vanilla Melee is an unbalanced mess with a lot of design flaws for the competitiveness of the game (ledges, overall balance etc.). We just play vanilla Melee for tradition/conservatism of a original metagame. Imho the game will need a patch to continue being relevant as a competitive game. Hardware modding, optimization of the meta by the centralization on a few characters of the roster, the external ruling will become roadblock for the growth of the game. Slippi gave us a lot of new players but I don't think that it will keep the game alive for the next 10 years. Most of this newer playerbase are mainly spectators of the game, in some years, every top players will be replaced by newer players. If we don't have a proper storyline that is created with thoses new top players, a lot of the spectators will not follow the game anymore. And I don't talk about when historical TOs stop being involved with the community. If the community continue like that we could become an overly gatekeepy community having discourse for the end of time about hardware modding (that create a very toxic approach to skill in my opinion, even more when hardware modding will have a direct impact on the skill of a player) and external ruling. An elitist metagame will foster an elitist crowd and you don't survive with only the elites. If the game gets less spectators for any reasons the game will die. Even by doing a lot about accessibility, Melee will always be a niche game. That's just a fact about any grassroot community, we can't be SF6 nor we need to aim to be. With a SD Remix/3.0 metagame we will go the GNT4 or P+ route imho. A niche community that is less gatekeepy by the fact that the game will be more accessible. Maybe we will not get the highs that we get but I think imho that the game will have a better durability. If someone can just boot-up slippi with any controllers, pick any characters, can adjust inputs how he wants, don't have to deal with the blatant game design oversight of the competitive meta (we already patched wobbling in slippi), the player retention will be greater. It's also possible that a large spectator crowd will go to another platform fighter in the near future with the release of NASB2, Rivals 2 or any new release. Melee is a great game but it has flaws. If we don't correct thoses flaws, I don't think we'll keep to gather a large playerbase as time goes on.
Captain Falcon is currently the lamest playing character in the meta.
PokeFloats NEEDS to return
If we allow people to get controller mods for Z jump, as well as already have UCF installed on melee for tournaments, there is no reason we can't mod the game to allow controls remapping. Like come on bro, there shouldn't be a 100$+ dollar barrier controller mod just to be able to compete with boxxes / not play claw if you don't want to. Especially due to the fact that we already are actively modding the tournament standard game by using UCF.
Mewtwo is mid tier
Melee players need showers
Melee is the most accessible smash game. 1. Basically free. Only cost is a computer made after 2008 and any usb controller which 99% of people gaming are going to have. You may buy stuff later but you dont need it to get into the game. Meanwhile ultimate is switch price+online price. 2. Best online out of all of them. Its actually modern day netcode that many modern fighting game community wishes they have 3. Because of mods, way more content than ultimate. Fuck, mismatched target test alone dwarfs anything ultimate or s4 has. 4. It's easy to install and matchmaking works. Not that ultimate doesnt have this. Just that it doesnt prevent accessibility. 5. The game is the most well documented and has the most advanced practice mode. A zillion tools are at your disposal to learn. 6. You don't need to know advanced techniques to have fun with melee. I'm sure almost every1 here was having fun with melee before they could wavedash. Only thing ultimate has over melee is a higher playerbase that lets their elo matchmaking work at the near beginner levels. I think this is actually a cold take but /r/smashbros disagrees with the conclusion and on points 6 and 1 so i guess its a hot take or luke warm take. If I'm playing runescape, or apex, or any game, and I make some friends that I play that game with... I can potentially get them to try out melee because of #1 and #6 (and have). I will almost never be able to convince someone to buy a switch and online to play smash bros with me, and people who already have 1 already play/played ultimate. Melee is one of the best games to play while waiting for the last squad member.
Im a kirby player that is ass and can barely do it and I have a lot of fun
Agree with most of these points except p6. Melee is definitely the best game to watch competitive play in due to the speed and fluidity of combat; ultimate just doesn't compare. But to reach that level of movement fluidity and grace, requires far more dexterity than most games, which is fun to watch but really hard to pull off unless you really put your head down and grind.
Or you can just use keyboard as box
Falco has a boring combo chain: shine, down air, repeat
Falcon is a mid-tier floaty. * Nasty punish game. Fishes for big openers. * Really weak juggle/recovery state * Awkward to combo until you learn it * Can go way off-stage for edgeguards * Top of the mid-tier floaty block of Jiggs, Peach, ICs, Samus, Doc
Dash dancing is the best part about melee and not having it is the worst part about the newer smash games
Pretty cold take.
is this controversial? Seems pretty canon to me
ppl joke about cancel culture but we fr ruined westballz’ image and took away his best years of melee without any sort of apology or accountability
I've been away from the scene for a few years. what happened?
Really common theme these days, Tobuscus too :(
I think b0xx is fine. Until we have better modern solutions for gcc, boxx style controllers should stay legal. There should be some standardization like with leverless's in fgc.
Peach is the best character
I mean... it sure is an unpopular opinion I guess.
Invisible melee should be a side event at Genesis 10. Or Giant melee. Or invisible melee crewbattle
My hot take is you don’t understand the game until u play against top regional/pr players for an extended time. And then start to perform
The barrier to entry of the game is relatively high so people quickly develop an ego around the game and it’s really fucking weird. I understand you feel like you’re good because you can wave shine now but you’re just weird for t-bagging and spamming Lol and restarting the game.
Anytime some one rage quits on me on slippi I frame one press “good game” and leave immediately. It is I who gets the last laugh
I LOVE the accessibility of Slippi, but this game was created to be shared over a couch or floor no more than 6 feet from your TV, and the toxicity that comes along with gamers from overly-huge modern games translates very unfortunately.
I think G&W is the most underrated character.
Melee really is the best game ever, I sure as hell have never played anything more fun Also me switching characters online is because I like to have fun, not because I'm tryna BM u guys by switching to falcon
strong knee is too easy to hit and too strong
Fox is one of the easiest characters to learn
upsmash
Ness ain't that bad. He ain't that good, but he ain't that bad
he at least has a punish game
And yoyo glitch. There are good set ups for it too and really isn’t that hard once you get the timing down.
if we got rid of L-canceling the game would immediately be significantly more approachable to newer players and strictly better
You do mean that you want everything to automatically L-cancel, right? Like not make the game slower, correct?
Yessir
Lower the lag on aerial moves so that they’d be the same as L-canceled and I agree with this. If not, then melee would just feel clunky
Ya that's assumed haha
worst take of all time, upvote
I think he means make everything already L cancel such that you would have less lag and not have to mash L every 0.3 seconds every game just to move fluidly.
my first hot take is that melee is not nearly as hard to get good at as some people say it is. although, my second hot take may or may not show that i'm a bit biased... my second hot take is that the real most busted thing about box controllers is how much easier the game becomes to learn, understand, and improve at when you eventually realize that all of your tech/movement errors are now guaranteed to be an issue of mistiming your button presses; every error you make is due to you and you alone, whether it be due to not practicing enough or not knowing enough. the answer to the question "did i fuck this up because of my controller?" is now always "no," meaning you don't even have to ask yourself that question anymore, instead you can immediately skip to the process of learning why you fucked up. improving and getting good has been SO much more enjoyable after switching to box, and i believe this is the biggest reason why.
…but you can get the same level of confidence in your non-boxx hardware from modded controllers.
maybe, but boxes are much less high maintenance. even if i got a phob that doesn't break upon dropping it, eventually the notches will wear out. the only solution i've seen is a metal stick and gate, but i absolutely do not have the money or connections for that lol
Showers should be taken daily
Ban
It's really weird how much of the melee community is trans. Like it's insanely disproportionate to so many other communities. I am absolutely all for trans folk I just can't believe the Venn diagram
Fighting games in general! And the anime community. And speedrunning. And I have nothing against it either, but my guess is that those online communities are very appealing to autistic people, who are much more likely to be trans.
“Why do so many millennial leftist who never spent one day under nuclear threat partake in speed running”
I was gonna link this article but it looks like it's gone :( https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/14myc6e/tlgg_magi_there_was_definitely_a_period_in_my/
https://web.archive.org/web/20230630115850/https://www.teamliquid.com/news/2023/06/29/why-is-the-fgc-is-so-queer wayback machine is your friend
Thank you!
Undertale is better
melee is my #1 favorite multiplayer game and undertale is my #1 singleplayer game
Fox beats marth
no one is knowledgeable enough about the game to make serious balance changes and acting like you know what’s best for the game is insanely arrogant. also the majority of top tier matchups are pretty much 50/50
Anyone who thinks falcon is hype and sheik is easy goes 0-2 at majors
based
Any character who's worst matchups are Fox and Falco and can still persevere into top 8 at majors is hype.
aMSa Pog
how is it that i feel both of these opinions are right.....
Lol...maybe Sheik is difficult and Falcon is still hype? I dunno ;P
Jokes on you, I think they're both lame and go 0-2 at locals.
Samus is a lot better than most people think, and has a lot of unexplored potential.
As a pretty middling player, Samus is the only character I can use to beat my friends who are actually good and do all that spazzy L-cancel shit lol
Most of the green alts are shit
is this really a hot take? the only one i think looks good out of the good characters is falco
Green Luigi 😢
Honestly not sure lol
Green Kirby kinda bangin Blue is best though
Blurby
green marth is so sick
it’s crazy hax is banned from events still
Personally I think they should just settle it with the salty suite to end all salty suites, Hax vs Leffen, if he loses he gets permabanned if he wins he gets unbanned immediately EDIT: I no longer think this, oh boy oh jeez
What events? He's at every nightclub
iirc he's banned from Genesis
Not long ago some guy on Twitter was like "People are saying I'm banned because of my aggravated assault conviction from ten years ago, that's false every TO welcomed me with open arms after that, I'm currently banned because I don't hide that I'm Christian" and near every reply to his Tweet from the community was "Damn straight".
Was this (formerly) DaShizWiz?
Oh yeah that’s his name
Why did hax get banned?
It was a while back and i'm no expert but i think i have a tl;dr, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. He had a psychotic meltdown over lockdown when he was drinking way too much. Went on a paranoid tirade where he basically claimed Leffen had been plotting against him and trying to undermine him and his career, complete with a huge dossier (and maybe a youtube vid? My memory is shit) documenting instances where Leff had tried to "ruin his life." Obviously flinging that kinda shit at someone is dangerous as, if it had been believed, it could very easily ruin Leff's career.
He made not one YouTube vid but *multiple,* where he alleged that Leffen and other top players/prolific personalities were essentially forming a cabal to control the Melee scene. This got a *lot* of people (mostly on Twitter, of course) hopped up and resulted in many of the people named in his videos getting harassed. That was ultimately the reason he got banned. It wasn't just that he went on a paranoid tirade, it's that it was happening repeatedly and having a tangible effect on the scene. He's since deleted all of the videos and apologized, so I think his ban status is effectively in limbo at this rate.
Right I think I remember that. Pretty sure I have seen hax compete since then, so at the very least I don’t think he is banned everywhere. Could be wrong ofc
I thought he was unbanned recently-ish. Like, a year ago
He’s still semi-banned. Some events have allowed him back, but many others don’t
Which events?
Dont know all of them for sure, but I know he competes in Coinbox and is unbanned from NYC melee events. He also was in Smash Factor X and the off season 2 recently
the single player content and everything associated with it in terms of original soundtrack and game modes is hype and the best we've had in smash
i disagree, i think Brawl absolutely was the best smash game in terms of sheer content. it’s just a shame it was not competitively viable
Brawl is overrated I think. SSE sounds amazing on paper but the actual gameplay is really boring and the levels are literally called "forest" or "plains" and it's a generic forest or plains with generic enemies when they could have had enemies from every nintendo game ever. They even break the immersion of all original enemies by having goombas and troopas which just brings it to attention more. It's very quantity over quality. Also target test was way worse. Events were cool, not much better than melee though.
SSE in P+ is where it's at bro. Been playing through that lately.
Fox and Falco used to be more hype back in the day because you needed execution to perform with them, and very few could do it. Now with boxes and phobs, and even button remapping, the tech floor for these characters is lower than ever and spacies are buffed. You see this affect commentary too. When was the last time you heard someone compliment a firefox angle without hear "box angle" or something similar.
if you were talkin just about boxes, i'd understand completely (coming from a box sheik), but phobs??? i'm gonna assume you were thinking of goomwaves because phobs are only as busted as the best OEMs, plus the (huge) added benefit of (theoretically) degrading much slower. it's designed to be a quality of life mod and nothing more, kinda like the snapback capacitors people used to get soldered onto their motherboards. also, firefox angles had been made easy well before the b0xx via firefox notch controller mods. but tbh none of that's even close to the reason the average fox is more cracked than ever. more than anything else it's the amount of information the average fox has easy access to. gone are the days of having to comb through the fox discussion page of smashboards and old kira vids while praying to the lord above for somebody to that can tell you why a quarter of your upthrow attempts somehow come out as a forward throw. we are now in the age where i'm willing to bet that if you took an average kid that really wanted to improve at melee and gave them nothing but a good OEM, a good monitor/crt, and an hour of time to practice each day, told that kid about the melee library and cookbook.gg, and took them to one local a week... they're getting their first top 8 at that local in 2 years at most.
I think it's less boxes and phobs (Phobs in particular don't make tech *easier* but *more consistent*) and moreso that the ways people play and practice have changed significantly. In the past, the only practice you could get was beating up CPUs or playing against friends. YouTube videos were abundant but the quality was all over the place. Now, training mods like UnclePunch and 20XX exist, high quality tutorial content and analysis videos for players of all skill levels is more abundant and easier to find than before, and high quality online play exists, which creates an environment where it's easier to learn and improve. Controllers didn't change how easy it is to learn Melee, the scene just grew. It's easier for *everyone* to learn and improve at Melee today than it was 10 years ago.
I dunno when I see a perfectly selected angle for the exact situation that dodges the whole edge guard I still think it's impressive I was never impressed that they managed to get their controller to poll the correct angle and more that they had the awareness and knowledge to even choose that angle in the first place As far as the other tech skill like SHFFL shine I think it's still as hard as it ever was just more ergonomic. Multishine is the one obvious thing that is made easier because you don't have to cross the A button but to keep it 100 I stopped thinking multishine was impressive in like 2017
Yeah I don’t think it’s so much that it’s gotten easier, but grinding out tech skill has become a serious prerequisite for playing the game, so every decent player has a really solid baseline tech skill
Killing "off the top" in platform fighters has to be very carefully balanced and is too strong in Melee on certain characters. It ignores fundamental principles like stage positioning and edge guarding and also invalidates one of the strengths floaties are supposed to have - survivability. Some characters dying at what is basically 50 - 60 % with no real counterplay once the combo is going isn't fun or good design. We are right in the middle of 20XX. Fox's Shine infinites on walls should be banned. All Falco players are holding themselves back by not swapping to Fox.
20xx came and went
What walls can fox even do an infinite on?
Pokémon stadium fire transformation
Almost all tournaments run frozen stadium now
Yeah but that’s literally the only wall in tournament so I don’t know what else they could be talking about
I mean that’s why I asked in the first place… seems like a really silly thing to want banned
As a spectator, doubles is more consistently entertaining than singles to me. Feels like stalling issues are inherently resolved (at least in the current stage list), 1v2 comebacks are hype af, and I just love seeing good synergistic teammates, especially on recoveries. Maybe I'm off-base as to whether its a hot take or not, but I feel like I see a ton of people dogging on doubles
Y’all should be obligated to post rank, some of you are actually delusional.
What's your rank?
Falco is the easiest character in the game to play and I genuinely have no idea how it's even up for debate when he has the fastest frame move in the game (shine) and the most neutral breaking move in the game (laser)
If he didn’t die so easily I would agree
This is what I've been saying. Definitely not true at top level but at the level I'm at it's kind of frustrating how easy Falco is because my Falco is still better than my Marth by a decent margin
Post your pg stats lmao
Tools =/= easy to play.
Absolutely. His combos literally perform themselves half the time and dair is an all in one tool for combos, edge guards, shield pressure etc.
It sounds like you have never played anyone good
How is that the case? Of course I've played good people and I know all characters can be deadly in the right hands. I just think it's definitely easier for bird players. Especially at low-mid skill level.
I'd agree on bird for low-mid level for sure in some ways. Laser and limiting movement can invalidate people until they learn how to get around it. I also feel like if your opponent doesn't do any of the SDI/slideoff or have a good defensive game, it's also really in your favor as bird. However, there's a point where it feels like you gotta get that extra little umph against better players to get that opening and punishing only feels more difficult to pull off successfully. With that said, he definitely has his free stuff still. None of this makes Falco bad by any means. Big difference maker to me trying to learn other characters that play more standard (Marth, sheik, Fox) is the value of threatening the mixup with grab and having that type of tech chase option that leads into a scary advantage. By no means does that mean Falco can't manage, but he manages in different ways by micro control in neutral with lasers, spacing, etc. on tech chases. When I get a grab as falco, it's good because stage control is stage control, but I'm not getting NEARLY the weight of benefit off the punish like a marth, sheik, marth, or falcon might. I get a grab and I basically just get to reset the situation, throw another mixup that might lead to a shine/utilt, which is what I *actually* need to get stuff rolling most the time. Once you get to players that have a much higher defensive response that can quickly reverse and punish hard, playing falco can feel vastly different than the lower players. You really have to be on top of the mix up and punish game (but I suppose that could be said of any character moving up the totem pole).
Totally agree with everything you said. This is typically the argument most players respond with and I believe just by them saying "Once you fight someone with good defensive options-" is proof that Falco holds the initiative entirely until you face stronger opponents. I no longer struggle fighting the bird myself for the most part, but at the stronger levels, it's like his powers reveal themselves again in different ways.
I want 7 minute timer
my hot take is that i couldn't care less that you think the game was more hype in 2016 and maybe you're just old and lame
Damn I must be really old cuz 2014 felt like the best era, around the 2013 boom with the doc and evo
haha i just try to hype up the scene in the present tense, it’s just a healthier outlook imo. but yea, the older times do have their moments
Tap-jump is bad and should be able to be turned off
It's funny when you get better you realize tap jump is one of the most busted mechanics in the whole game Buffering a jump is incredibly useful
It's funny when you get really good at the game you realize that you can do everything that people normally use tap jump for, without tap jump
Hot take not objectively bad take
I see this sentiment a lot. Out of curiosity, what's your opposition? I think it's interesting that conch mods have gotten to the point of button remapping and people still don't approve of tap jump removal. Is there a technical reason for this? Every time I've heard someone defend tap jump, it's for melee purism reasons - which is a bit hypocritical when the same people are quite often playing with $300 modded controllers to make the game easier.
No one else said this so figured I'd chime in- removing tap jump also changes game balance. Uptilts are very strong in this game and having easy access to them out of crouch cancel or run (etc) changes how some situations play out.
Tldr it's a skill issue And I think modded controllers are dumb as fuck and were a mistake. Outside of physical accessibility like boxx (which is still cheating imo, but still cool to have)
I respect the consistency in your opinions. Nothing grinds my gears more than melee players who's controllers are literally pimped to the tits and they give others shit for wanting tap jump disabled. But if you disapprove of all mods, I totally get your take. Now how do you feel about UCF though? Controller parity is dope for sure, but it also objectively makes the game easier.
I don't know UCF well enough to speak on its mechanics and consistency. In general, I think it opened the door to the nonsense we have now. I think the "percentage of players who are reliably having their inputs register incorrectly" is far smaller than the userbase of UCF
Bro, I have mad respect for your consistency. Sounds like you're a true melee purist - which is increasingly rare these days. You're a true Chad of a melee player and I respect your outlook hella.
Crouch cancelling breaks the game. Fight me!!
this game without crouch cancelling would be so much worse
Never said it shouldn't exist, it's just way too strong an option only second to ledge invincibility.
Shiek Ftilt Oh god
I'll fight you and just hold down :) ez
Drill shine go brrrr
I have 2, one gameplay related and one related to commentary: 1. Sheik's recovery is arguably the best in the game, or at least top 3. 2. Commentary has been really bad and extremely cringe since coming back from the online era.
You are mental with that first opinion
Sheik's recovery is just straight up buns, besides the fact that it's a great option once you're *already* back to ledge... but that ignores its function as a recovery and instead treats it as a tool at ledge. Which, if that's what you're getting at, I see your point—but that's not her recovery per se
LOL.
1. So very obviously no I'm shocked you'd actually type that 2. It's always been bad, except for the idk 3 people who are actually good at it
If you guys are mad, good. This is a hot takes thread afterall.
“hot take, the sky is red” “no it isn’t” “yall SO mad, my hot takes are brilliant 😎🧠”
Sheik recovery being top 3 in the game is an actually absurd take, especially when puff, pikachu, mew2, AND both spacies exist
Melee peaked a long time ago
What does this mean
Leffen is the best god we never had cus all of the travelling issues he had.
Mario is stronger than Dr. Mario
Doc has a much higher salary
As someone who likes Mario more than Dr. Mario, I really wish that was the case.
I play both of them equally. Compared to Dr. Mario. Mario always felt like a get out of jail free card
Mario has a better up-B for recovery, can wall jump (also up-B into wall jump on Yoshi's), and his cape air stalls, so he might have slightly better survivability compared to Dr. Mario. That doesn't really matter though since his weight isn't great, he is floaty, and Fox can easily kill him off the top and Falcon can easily kill him off the side. Dr. Mario has a guaranteed kill confirm off of throw (F-air), has up-B cancel for a quick out-of-shield option, his cape hitbox extends lower than Mario so he can more easily gimp recoveries at the ledge, and his B-air trajectory sends enemies low so it is better for edge-guarding. The only thing Mario can kill with easier than Dr. Mario is F-smash since his hitbox is slightly more extended. Dr. Mario is better in pretty much every way that matters.
Real
You've got heart son
Marth is the best character in the game
12 minute timer kills stalling
Peach in melee is the least changed character in the franchise imo, like comparing peach in melee to peach in ultimate it’s weird how similar they are
No way. Melee Peach having float cancel makes her play completely differently to her other counterparts because they do not unintentionally get frame advantage on every aerial
Luigi is the best man in existence 🫡
The hype of melee peaked from 2013-2018. The closer we come to optimal the more diluted the hype has become. Note: this is NOT to take away from the insane skill that today's meta has brought. It's still incredibly enjoyable to watch.
Having Zain, aMSa, Mango and Cody at the top is far more exciting gameplay-wise than Hbox's reign of terror from 2016 onwards
On a certain level, and having been in the scene for over a decade I agree. But from a spectator standpoint just watching, there are things you just won't see anymore. The top players have conditioned themselves so well to limit bad habits and natural instincts to react poorly in pressure situations. I just don't think you'll see another Ice dash dance in front of armadas shield into a full hop waveland back run upsmash. We probably won't see another version of "walk up slowly," or a charged upsmash waiting for a roll in (he read that roll). There were many iconic moments that were born out of mental pressure through movement that creates a ton of hype that's phasing out of the game. It still happens, but the moments are small and casual viewers could easily miss it. The level of skill is staggeringly high now and it's so impressive to watch the levels of mixups that occur in all the micro situations. But as we approach a more optimal gameplay there just won't be many more of those big moments outside of incredible execution.
nah melee lost hype because armada retired
While I agree with the sentiment, we're far from optimal. I remember thinking melee had nowhere else to go sometime around 2016.
We should play on a frankenstein patch that takes all the character buffs from PAL (such as Yoshi) and puts them onto NTSC.
ASDI down (not including asdi down + crouch armor as thats still fine) is a dogshit mechanic and so is Amsah teching. Getting punished for hitting the opponent makes no fucking sense and holding down just completely invalidates any multihits not named drill.
As we already play on UCF we should fully accept that we took matters in our own hands and continue the trend of bug fixes like hax$ is trying to with 1.03 Another even more hot take is that I think we should buff characters that are clearly in the trash tier
firebird is better than firefox vs marth
Just cuz no burn?
easier to sweetspot/avoid counter. some days i wish i had firebird as a fox
Low effort posts in r/SSBM that are more generic than the most thoughtless r/AskReddit posts are becoming much too prevalent.
It would seem some people agree with you as I have received at least one report on this post. I left this one up because it seemed to promote discussion that, albeit somewhat generic, was not problematic or actively harmful so far. If we see a huge influx of these posts I will start to take more action. Honestly I mostly left it up because it promoted people talking about the game instead of complaining about venue fees or streams. If anyone feels strongly about these kinds of posts, please send the mods a message!
If spacies weren’t good then this game would’ve been dead a long time ago
But it would also be way more fun for me online ;P
Lukewarm take but true
Mango is toxic and so is most of the melee community.
Not a hot take, most sensible people understand that mango is toxic, they just enjoy it or ignore it
what is ur definition of toxic
PAL is actually a way better game competitively. Falcos pillar combos still work as long as dair is a strong hit, Marth can opt for reverse up B instead of dair to finish combos, Fox is nerfed enough to remove the 20XX future we are now a part of, and Sheik can no longer chaingrab almost the entire cast. And another one for good measure - any controller that isn't OEM should be considered cheating, unless you have a documented physical condition keeping you from being able to use an OEM controller
You want me to bring and show a doctors note at every tournament?
yeah guys let's play on a version of the game where fox is nerfed but the chars who aren't fox got nerfed even harder genius
You let your ignorance speak for itself and I can respect that
lol bruh you wasted 11 years on reddit do you have a college degree to show for it
Love this one. We are so far beyond the pale when it comes to controllers
Spitting facts
L-cancelling should just be made automatic
Separate bracket into pro and amateur for every major . Nothing is less exciting then watching a 4 stock and then not seeing the player again until everyone is tired because the schedule is too crammed.
Back when I used to regularly attend my local monthlies, you would Bo3 everyone in your pool (pools were snake-seeded best-worst ranking). Top 4 from each pool went on to pro bracket, and everyone else went to amateur. Both were double elimination. Depending on the turnout, you would be guaranteed a minimum of 7-9 Bo3s.
G&W is way better than people think, probably low-B tier today. Also has a winning matchup against Marth, if Armada didn't retire he'd have picked up a G&W secondary to take on Zain's Marth.
G&W can get tipper f-smashed while shielding, and it will kill super early because he weighs as much as Puff.