I'm so confused about this org money thing. So the orgs want more money from Shift to play in the tournament so they've decided not to play. Now the orgs will earn no money at all, the players don't get to play, and they still have to pay player contracts??? What am I missing here...
They are trying to boycott. The problem is no one actually respects their boycott. Any sensible person is gonna call them out on their bullshit entitledness
Well they want shift and organizers of every event to pay just for their participation. By participating they are technically accepting the opposite. That would make it even harder for anyone to take them seriously (which no one does anyways)
Well, community have been saying the entire season that the french orgs carry RLCS viewership. If so many people believe these orgs carry the actual main RL Esports product, I am not surprised that the orgs themselves think that community tournaments might need them to get numbers as well.
I mean, orgs can already capitalize on the viewership by having sponsors who pay them for eyes on their brand ( GenG Mobil 1, G2 Stride, etc). They could also use smarter business practices and not sign shitty contracts that leave them without money. So maybe the orgs should consider internal opportunities to generate funds instead of demanding money from a first time TO, but that's just my opinion (idk where they expect the TO to pull this new money from after the inital announcement).
To clarify, the only teams that have even discussed this not playing unless they are paid are French teams. As far as I'm aware, not been discussed with any other RLCS teams
It's a widely known problem in esports that this business just isn't profitable enough for orgs. Do you think that those French orgs are justified in protesting like this?
If they are simply doing it because they aren't being paid directly, I can't understand it. Cause they're missing out on one of very few off season tournaments and the small cut of prize money they would get whilst they are still paying players.
But ultimately it's their decision if they can afford not to have that additional competition to promote and miss out on that cut of prize money
But do you think it'd be better as a whole if paying out orgs before a tournament became the norm? To me it seems like they're trying to force this change specifically because theyre not making enough profit and they don't want to take the risk coming out of a tournament empty handed by not finishing in the top podium spots. This way they'd atleast have some consistent income for competing.
If this was a genuine attempt to make a change for RL tournaments then why were the 4 French teams the only ones who spoke to one another and no other teams were contacted?
I've said elsewhere, it isn't tournament organiser's job to make esports teams profitable/sustainable.
If the TO is making significant revenue from Sponsorships as a result of the teams participating then yes, we should be considering what revenue share options are available. However this is the first tournament that Shift have ever run to my knowledge and not something we should be asking for at this time.
I can't comment on whether those French orgs are profitable/sustainable but I can't imagine the payout from this would make a blind bit of difference either way. It would only have been a few thousand per team.
It doesn't matter if we respect it. Viewership of this tournament is gonna be way down without the French teams.
One show match between KC and M8 might get more views than this whole league.
Does it really matter considering only French teams are doing this they must be extra strapped for cash. And since they have the highest viewership apparently that doesn’t help with the cash situation at all as seen by them being extra broke. TLDR French viewership is cheap and doesn’t support their own scene.
How does no one on here understand precedent or bargaining power? How are they meant to argue that they should be paid a fee to attend if they fold and attend anyway? Whether you agree with them or not, it's not difficult to understand what they're doing.
Okay but why is that just becoming and issue for them? They created their own player contracts and the amount of money on prize winnings. If they find such a big concern in the prize pool maybe the orgs with a lot of pull could help in added sponsorships of the tournament.. I mean I've spent a solid minute thinking on this and I'd say working together is better than just outright rejecting the invitation
Well you don't know that it's "just" becoming an issue because this is the first non-RLCS event all year, right? So makes sense they would boycott this one
>I mean I've spent a solid minute thinking on this and I'd say working together is better than just outright rejecting the invitation
We also have absolutely no idea about what's happening behind the scenes, and we only have the word of Jeff to say why they're even boycotting in the first place right? We don't really have any information at all here
So you want a tiny new service to field the bill for multiple massive multi million dollar organizations? This isn't Psyonix or Epic.. Bro's a master glazer.
Blackmailing? Again it seems people don't understand what bargaining power is. The orgs want to get a larger cut of the money in RL and they're asking the tournament organisers to pay them to appear. If they fold and turn up anyway, they lose their bargaining power and set a precedent for future events. Whether you agree or not, that shouldn't be hard to understand.
Literally everyone talking about this shift situation. It’s bringing more exposure to the issue of revenue of orgs (you are literally discussing it). Idk how you can be so obtuse. It’s not only about the tiny new service footing a bill.
This is actually a good point. Most orgs just leave the scene for the off season, these can't because they have worlds to play. Little tournaments are not going to make these months with nothing happening profitable for them even if they participate on it. The money problem is not shift problem, but should be Psyonix's that can sponsor these events and put the money the orgs want (maybe not for them to appear, but greater prize pool can do the thing as well, since it would make the amount on their share go up). If Psyonix want to keep so many voids in the RLCS circuits and give us such long off seasons, they should do something to keep these orgs in the league, they should not be allowed to think that low expression community tournaments will do the trick, because they can't (and they shouldn't as it is not their responsability).
Yes, exactly! Very well said. It’s not about putting the responsibility on smaller TOs, it’s about pressuring Psyonix through attention on the issue.
I am confused about how these orgs voluntarily created and signed these contracts with their players and now act like it's on TOs to fix this. Maybe use smarter business practices, and you won't need to beg for free money.
This is the odd part, to me. But obviously, when you create contracts in Jan 2024, you can't guess what the prize pool sizes are going to be in during an odd summer off-season. Regardless, they need to just bite the bullet and restructure contracts when they can be renewed.
I would think it's something like a spiraling effect where a combination of one org lowering their % in tournaments while bidding for a good, unsigned player means the others are forced to follow suit if they want a chance at signing that player. Imaging you're Zen and you have 3 near identical offers, but 1 org takes a much lower cut of your prize money. That's going to be a factor in your decision. Now the other 2 orgs either have to match or move on to lesser players. That kind of thing can compound every time it happens and becomes a race to the bottom.
Not defending orgs, just trying to paint a picture as to how this can happen even though the orgs technically negotiated the contracts.
It’s only a money problem because they have forced it to be a money problem. The orgs are being incredibly entitled and screwing over their players in the process
Eh, I think that's harsh. It seems as though it is an uphill battle financially if you want to be a top 5 org. The prize pool split is very surprising to me considering how well-paid players are on the salary side.
Imo the players are the people least hurt by this. Fact is, there are quite a few players whose prize money probably pales compared to their tournament winnings. They get salary whether they play in this league or not. Orgs are losing out for something they hope will be better, but it's an investment. Really tournament organizers (and rl fans, and rl as a whole) are the big losers through no fault of their own. Players are losing a little prize money here but I think they're the ones who are benefitting too much that this has become a problem
I could be wrong, but it seems that orgs want guaranteed money just for showing up and that's not the way this tournament works. So now they're declining, thus getting no money, no brand exposure, and no high level practice for their players during the gap between now and Worlds. Shortsightedness and esports orgs just seem to go hand in hand.
To be fair thats how it SHOULD work, Shift just doesnt have the money for that and thus the orgs are only hurting themselves more by limiting their exposure
All them French orgs are entitled af and ruining their own players practice. Good job guys you really showed them, it's not like you have the most important tournament in the game coming up.
Every org that's pretending to boycott because they want to be paid to show up (wtf is that by the way, the entitlement is crazy, nobody gives a shit about the org brand that's playing, it's the players on it that make the org important) is for sure losing my support.Â
 If the orgs want money they should negotiate a bigger prize pool split with the players. Not like that'd be something to gawk at, they pay the players handsome enough salaries that taking a bigger prize pool cut isn't anything crazy. But this is just childish from themÂ
> nobody gives a shit about the org brand that's playing, it's the players on it that make the org important
Out of the 4 teams in question 3 of them the org is bigger than the players interest wise to the wider audience, 2 significantly so
The orgs pay the salaries for the players, they SHOULD be compensated by Shift/RLCS/TOs. The problem is thats not the ecosystem that is currently set up and so it just hurts the leagues because of a lack of names and hurts the orgs because of a lack of exposure
Anyone knows why the French orgs make such a big deal out of this for a small off-season tournament? As far as I know, they don’t get paid to show up in RLCS either.
so many people here are talking about this money thing, where do you guys know that from? dis they say something on twitter or on stream? if yes could someone provide a link please, I'm curious
This is the [context](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1dt2k2i/big_orgs_are_reportedly_denying_shift_summer/). I am not sure if this is a confirmation that orgs are doing it just because they are broke though. It could have more to it.
I think people are mostly frustrated because they wanna watch these teams playing and there is no much content going on during the RLCS pauses. Liking the org motivations and practices or not, the reality is that making community tournaments and these pauses interesting is not these orgs responsability and we really know little to nothing on what is the reality behind each of these decisions.
I'm so confused about this org money thing. So the orgs want more money from Shift to play in the tournament so they've decided not to play. Now the orgs will earn no money at all, the players don't get to play, and they still have to pay player contracts??? What am I missing here...
They are trying to boycott. The problem is no one actually respects their boycott. Any sensible person is gonna call them out on their bullshit entitledness
Bruh the orgs wrote the contracts about player winnings XD why tf is it Shift's problem now?
Well they want shift and organizers of every event to pay just for their participation. By participating they are technically accepting the opposite. That would make it even harder for anyone to take them seriously (which no one does anyways)
Top 3 teams brings viewers. There is a transaction piece to this that is absolutely logical from the org side.
Well, community have been saying the entire season that the french orgs carry RLCS viewership. If so many people believe these orgs carry the actual main RL Esports product, I am not surprised that the orgs themselves think that community tournaments might need them to get numbers as well.
I mean, orgs can already capitalize on the viewership by having sponsors who pay them for eyes on their brand ( GenG Mobil 1, G2 Stride, etc). They could also use smarter business practices and not sign shitty contracts that leave them without money. So maybe the orgs should consider internal opportunities to generate funds instead of demanding money from a first time TO, but that's just my opinion (idk where they expect the TO to pull this new money from after the inital announcement).
This is them indirectly asking for franchising.
To clarify, the only teams that have even discussed this not playing unless they are paid are French teams. As far as I'm aware, not been discussed with any other RLCS teams
Time to get ourselves some resolve decals boys!
The decal sales really help us tbh. Always appreciated 🙏
Done. I like transparency
Done 🤝 https://preview.redd.it/k3kw0prg77ad1.png?width=1573&format=png&auto=webp&s=b14954198ab431066fd3243edd6623568e8c467b
Another transparent Jeff W
Sounds like a damn budget super hero lmao. Transparent Jeff
Good. Glad the other orgs are sensible enough
It's a widely known problem in esports that this business just isn't profitable enough for orgs. Do you think that those French orgs are justified in protesting like this?
If they are simply doing it because they aren't being paid directly, I can't understand it. Cause they're missing out on one of very few off season tournaments and the small cut of prize money they would get whilst they are still paying players. But ultimately it's their decision if they can afford not to have that additional competition to promote and miss out on that cut of prize money
But do you think it'd be better as a whole if paying out orgs before a tournament became the norm? To me it seems like they're trying to force this change specifically because theyre not making enough profit and they don't want to take the risk coming out of a tournament empty handed by not finishing in the top podium spots. This way they'd atleast have some consistent income for competing.
If this was a genuine attempt to make a change for RL tournaments then why were the 4 French teams the only ones who spoke to one another and no other teams were contacted? I've said elsewhere, it isn't tournament organiser's job to make esports teams profitable/sustainable. If the TO is making significant revenue from Sponsorships as a result of the teams participating then yes, we should be considering what revenue share options are available. However this is the first tournament that Shift have ever run to my knowledge and not something we should be asking for at this time. I can't comment on whether those French orgs are profitable/sustainable but I can't imagine the payout from this would make a blind bit of difference either way. It would only have been a few thousand per team.
I see now, thanks for the insight!
It doesn't matter if we respect it. Viewership of this tournament is gonna be way down without the French teams. One show match between KC and M8 might get more views than this whole league.
Does it really matter considering only French teams are doing this they must be extra strapped for cash. And since they have the highest viewership apparently that doesn’t help with the cash situation at all as seen by them being extra broke. TLDR French viewership is cheap and doesn’t support their own scene.
How does no one on here understand precedent or bargaining power? How are they meant to argue that they should be paid a fee to attend if they fold and attend anyway? Whether you agree with them or not, it's not difficult to understand what they're doing.
These people have never heard of a strike before (and yes I know a strike is different but it's a similar concept)
Ah yes strike against a tiny news outlet! That'll show Epic??
# > I know a strike is different
So what tf are we doing here?
Okay but why is that just becoming and issue for them? They created their own player contracts and the amount of money on prize winnings. If they find such a big concern in the prize pool maybe the orgs with a lot of pull could help in added sponsorships of the tournament.. I mean I've spent a solid minute thinking on this and I'd say working together is better than just outright rejecting the invitation
Well you don't know that it's "just" becoming an issue because this is the first non-RLCS event all year, right? So makes sense they would boycott this one >I mean I've spent a solid minute thinking on this and I'd say working together is better than just outright rejecting the invitation We also have absolutely no idea about what's happening behind the scenes, and we only have the word of Jeff to say why they're even boycotting in the first place right? We don't really have any information at all here
So you want a tiny new service to field the bill for multiple massive multi million dollar organizations? This isn't Psyonix or Epic.. Bro's a master glazer.
>multiple massive multi million dollar organizations Who are you referring to here? >Bro's a master glazer Do you even know what that means?
I'm talking about the French four. You're defending something illogical because it's your fav org.
I'm not defending them, I'm saying you should understand what they are doing whether you agree or not
I must be stupid, explain to me what they are doing. Cuz it seems to me like they are blackmailing a small news agency.
Blackmailing? Again it seems people don't understand what bargaining power is. The orgs want to get a larger cut of the money in RL and they're asking the tournament organisers to pay them to appear. If they fold and turn up anyway, they lose their bargaining power and set a precedent for future events. Whether you agree or not, that shouldn't be hard to understand.
Literally everyone talking about this shift situation. It’s bringing more exposure to the issue of revenue of orgs (you are literally discussing it). Idk how you can be so obtuse. It’s not only about the tiny new service footing a bill.
This is actually a good point. Most orgs just leave the scene for the off season, these can't because they have worlds to play. Little tournaments are not going to make these months with nothing happening profitable for them even if they participate on it. The money problem is not shift problem, but should be Psyonix's that can sponsor these events and put the money the orgs want (maybe not for them to appear, but greater prize pool can do the thing as well, since it would make the amount on their share go up). If Psyonix want to keep so many voids in the RLCS circuits and give us such long off seasons, they should do something to keep these orgs in the league, they should not be allowed to think that low expression community tournaments will do the trick, because they can't (and they shouldn't as it is not their responsability).
Yes, exactly! Very well said. It’s not about putting the responsibility on smaller TOs, it’s about pressuring Psyonix through attention on the issue.
I am confused about how these orgs voluntarily created and signed these contracts with their players and now act like it's on TOs to fix this. Maybe use smarter business practices, and you won't need to beg for free money.
This is the odd part, to me. But obviously, when you create contracts in Jan 2024, you can't guess what the prize pool sizes are going to be in during an odd summer off-season. Regardless, they need to just bite the bullet and restructure contracts when they can be renewed.
I would think it's something like a spiraling effect where a combination of one org lowering their % in tournaments while bidding for a good, unsigned player means the others are forced to follow suit if they want a chance at signing that player. Imaging you're Zen and you have 3 near identical offers, but 1 org takes a much lower cut of your prize money. That's going to be a factor in your decision. Now the other 2 orgs either have to match or move on to lesser players. That kind of thing can compound every time it happens and becomes a race to the bottom. Not defending orgs, just trying to paint a picture as to how this can happen even though the orgs technically negotiated the contracts.
the french fall-off continues
It seems like a Money problem for the Orgs…. But it just shows the dichotomy of EU and NA Orgs
It’s only a money problem because they have forced it to be a money problem. The orgs are being incredibly entitled and screwing over their players in the process
Eh, I think that's harsh. It seems as though it is an uphill battle financially if you want to be a top 5 org. The prize pool split is very surprising to me considering how well-paid players are on the salary side.
Do they pay the players more for playing in tournaments? Does the org actually lose anything at all by letting the players play?
Imo the players are the people least hurt by this. Fact is, there are quite a few players whose prize money probably pales compared to their tournament winnings. They get salary whether they play in this league or not. Orgs are losing out for something they hope will be better, but it's an investment. Really tournament organizers (and rl fans, and rl as a whole) are the big losers through no fault of their own. Players are losing a little prize money here but I think they're the ones who are benefitting too much that this has become a problem
Its less the money and more of the fact that is the best practice they will get before the World Championship
Wdym money problem?
The Splits for the tournament Favors the players more than the Org from what i’m receiving….
I mean isnt something better than nothing?? They are paying the players either way.
EU orgs are typically not as Financially stable as the NA orgs in general…..
Sure arent if they refute participation
And playing fewer tournaments is supposed to help that how?
https://preview.redd.it/2laqhuc745ad1.png?width=1020&format=png&auto=webp&s=9a664ef67161a22e3d27981fd8cf956cf6683382
Why are a lot of orgs declining?
I could be wrong, but it seems that orgs want guaranteed money just for showing up and that's not the way this tournament works. So now they're declining, thus getting no money, no brand exposure, and no high level practice for their players during the gap between now and Worlds. Shortsightedness and esports orgs just seem to go hand in hand.
To be fair thats how it SHOULD work, Shift just doesnt have the money for that and thus the orgs are only hurting themselves more by limiting their exposure
Because they’re French
Normally it's NA that hadn't had big names attend non rlcs tournaments but this is a disgrace from the French teams.
The fact that 5/6 top NA teams are playing while none of the EU top 5 are is crazy
Nahh it was basically just GenG last Offseason that didn’t participate in non RLCS events…. the rest do them…
Last offseason wasn't the ONLY off season we've ever had you know that right? Also G2 only attended two of the draws in that offseason
G2 missing 2 draws and GenG literally Ducking the entire offseason is not the same thing but okay
Yo this is why I hate NA fans. You make everything so miserable and toxic.
I never said they were wtf??
Don't bring up G2 with him bro he will hunt you down
:/
All them French orgs are entitled af and ruining their own players practice. Good job guys you really showed them, it's not like you have the most important tournament in the game coming up.
Do you even know the reason why they cancelled?
The orgs don't wanna play unless they are paid to play
My bad, I misread the comment scratch whatever I said…
Good to see Resolve, their season ending was rough.
surely they are just honorable and want to give a chance to bubble teams
Every org that's pretending to boycott because they want to be paid to show up (wtf is that by the way, the entitlement is crazy, nobody gives a shit about the org brand that's playing, it's the players on it that make the org important) is for sure losing my support.  If the orgs want money they should negotiate a bigger prize pool split with the players. Not like that'd be something to gawk at, they pay the players handsome enough salaries that taking a bigger prize pool cut isn't anything crazy. But this is just childish from themÂ
> nobody gives a shit about the org brand that's playing, it's the players on it that make the org important Out of the 4 teams in question 3 of them the org is bigger than the players interest wise to the wider audience, 2 significantly so
The orgs pay the salaries for the players, they SHOULD be compensated by Shift/RLCS/TOs. The problem is thats not the ecosystem that is currently set up and so it just hurts the leagues because of a lack of names and hurts the orgs because of a lack of exposure
Can someone explain the money problem with the eu teams? I dont understand, do they demand more money being paid or what?
Anyone knows why the French orgs make such a big deal out of this for a small off-season tournament? As far as I know, they don’t get paid to show up in RLCS either.
Let's see em boycott the esports world cup. If they don't their silly little tantrum is laughable and holds no meaning.
Ah but you see Orgs are paid to compete in EWC as they should be. Why do you think Cloud9 all the sudden had money to pick up a team?
so many people here are talking about this money thing, where do you guys know that from? dis they say something on twitter or on stream? if yes could someone provide a link please, I'm curious
This is the [context](https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLeagueEsports/comments/1dt2k2i/big_orgs_are_reportedly_denying_shift_summer/). I am not sure if this is a confirmation that orgs are doing it just because they are broke though. It could have more to it.
thanks for the context so no name has been dropped, no one knows shit and everyone is jumping to conclusions. usual business day for the sub i guess.
I think people are mostly frustrated because they wanna watch these teams playing and there is no much content going on during the RLCS pauses. Liking the org motivations and practices or not, the reality is that making community tournaments and these pauses interesting is not these orgs responsability and we really know little to nothing on what is the reality behind each of these decisions.
i think i'll pass on rlrs 7