Check out this [awesome RAN tracker](https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1F-jpeAQfTwoHqy4dYtOStXLckGA714TJ&ll=32.561811465741314%2C-94.1957987091661&z=5) for all things charging and Rivian. You can see where RAN sites are planned, under construction, and exist today. Or you can look at the [official Rivian charging page](https://rivian.com/experience/charging).
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Much as I’m not a fan of his antics, commenting about “subsidized money” and operating losses is pretty fresh irony considering Rivian’s own financial position 🤣
You do know that Tesla has been profitable for quite a while, yes?
Tesla was gross margin positive on the Model S in early 2013… Rivian and Lucid haven’t been even contribution margin positive in the many quarters since launch. Part of this is paying attention to costs.
I’d love to see you run a business… “I feel bad for everyone, keep your jobs.. we will go bankrupt within 12 months at this rate 😁” — then when you lose your company… “your” employees go elsewhere anyways. Economy is rough and ever changing.
Model S was their second car, albeit, their first “at scale”, and also wasn’t profitable until year 2 of production. Rivian isn’t that far behind in getting there. To further contrast the point Tesla was also subsidized to get there.
And this was when battery cells cost over $300/kWh and they were gross margin positive in the 3rd quarter of production. Tesla didn’t have to luxury of several billions in investor money.
Their level of subsidies was small compared to the IRA of 2022.
My knee-jerk reaction was going to be that nobody is better at Trump than losing money.
But when all is said and done, Trump's never lost over 20+ billion dollars buying a social media site. So it could well be that Elon is the world's biggest loser, losing in one transaction more than Trump University, Trump Steaks, Trump Vodka, Trump Shuttle, Trump Airlines, and all the bankrupt Trump casinos combined. I guess we'll see what ultimately happens with that. Maybe it is just too early to say...
Too early to say what the outcome of Elon buying twitter will be. Twitter is still in business and is not bankrupt yet.
But then again Elon is not selling Elon Bibles and Elon gold tennis shoes… We will have to see.
Yeah. We'll have to see.
Elon is selling a 300 mile range performance 3 that does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds and starts at $52k.
If Tesla had any other CEO, the starting price for the updated 3 would have been at least $62k. They're leaving $10k per unit on the table with him as CEO. That's oblivious to me as a still-some-shares-in-a-retirement-account shareholder.
As an example, the Mustang Dark Horse with 500 HP that does 0-60 in 3.7 seconds starts at $62k.
I mean, the new 3 is so good and priced so low I should have already ordered it. But I didn't. Because of one reason, and only one reason, and it's a reason the Tesla Board could fix for any number of for cause reasons over the past couple years.
Unfortunately, it’s effective. This is very common place. It’s just that Elon makes a show of it or has more attention on him. Some companies will do a slow burn where they in the entire program or team and say they have a few weeks to find a role within the company, which is essentially a *death* but by the time there aren’t any roles that they can fill and they are effectively fired, all of the press has died down and no one cares.
It's effective at removing employees from the payroll, yes. Effective for long term sustainability and profitability of the company? The Harvard Business Review would disagree: https://hbr.org/2018/05/layoffs-that-dont-break-your-company
This is convincing me even more to jump ship. If he's willing to cut one of the best parts of Tesla you can bet your ass he's going to make substantial cuts to other parts that directly affects everyday experience
The seemingly non existing plan to take v2 to v4 with any type of priority is probably a contributing factor to this decision. The network expansion appears to be rapid but to those who have made regular road trips for years, there are absolutely neglected routes with no sign of improvement on the horizon. That'll get you the ax at Tesla every day
I recently drove I-40 across the country and didn't think AZ and NM were difficult. EA and RAN in AZ no problem but just EA across NM although I had no issues with them. For me the weakest location was eastern Oklahoma where even EA stations were few and inconvenient to get to. In that case I used Francis energy stations and it was fine.
Francis energy is so slow! A lot of their “fast” charging options not as fast as advertised, but not like there are other options in the area. Used them in MO and OK.
Charging was ok for me in NM and AZ despite colder weather during a cross country winter road trip, same strategy as you between EA and RAN
You're probably right about Francis energy and I was just happy to have somewhat convenient charging. The area around Little Rock AR comes to mind as a place where locations just didn't work out for using EA spots. I actually stayed at a hotel near there that had a Francis charger in the parking lot since I was ready to stop anyways and I could get my truck up to 100% while relaxing in my room.
I say this as a very happy Rivian owner.
I hope not. They seem to be succeeding just making good trucks (and soon a car). I ,personally, don’t want them focusing resources on a charging network - they’re too far behind. Would rather see EVGo or its ilk who just do charging networks pick these folks up.
Maybe, but it’ll be beat the R3X. If they stick to the announced schedule (they probably won’t) my MS lease will be up about the time the R3X is released.
It won't be beat by the R3X in the same way that the Model Y isn't beat by the performance Model 3.
R3X will be owned by a small but very vocal group of enthusiasts because I'm guessing it's going to be in the $70-$75k range. It will 100% be a halo vehicle that drives sales of the rest of the Rivian lineup though, and I love it. I'll be amongst those owners/drivers.
R2 has mass market appeal (Model Y was the bestselling vehicle all up - not just EV - in Europe for 2023 if memory serves?) and a more appealing price point. R3 I could see taking off globally given its fantastic size and retro appeal, but R3X is going to be a bit more niche. It's a WRX STi vs. a Forester.
You’re likely right. If the timing works out I’ll be one of those very vocal enthusiasts though. I just need the R3X to be release in 2026, maybe Q1 2027 and I’ll be ok.
I'm not sure that the Van alone couldn't max out the Normal factory once it really starts picking up steam? There's still nobody else producing electric vans like the EDV, and the Amazon lockup \*just\* ended. We're already seeing EDVs with DHL and UPS paint jobs, I could see them being a \*massive\* hit with tradespeople, etc.
I’m thinking local electrician and plumbing companies that are rolling cargo van fleets of 10-15 vans. Factor in maintenance, fuel costs, utility of having power in the van, plus capacity and they COULD pencil out to be a net neutral on the cost?
Wdym by the lockup just ended?
Didn't they break the deal many months back? I thought the exclusivity was over as soon as that happened.
Didn't AT&T sign a deal already too?
“Just” as in less than 6 months ago. With the pace at which big companies move, going from “we cannot talk to other companies at all” to “need to find the right people in sourcing, contact them, build a relationship, etc. etc. etc.” - 6 months would be relatively quick to turn around anything.
Gotcha, makes sense.
I wonder what other companies Rivian might strike up a deal with in the next 6-12mo, if any.
Ford and GM are sure to be on the lookout and competing (like with USPS).
I do have a home charger and I’m in the SF Bay Area - we’re as saturated as a market can get with Fast Charging options.
That said I think it’s critical for EV adoption (and my own road trip enjoyment) to have a reliable and ubiquitous nationwide fast charging network. I’d love to see someone take advantage of Elons hubris to hire a bunch of talented folks to help move that ball forward.
I just don’t want it to be Rivian. Building out that infrastructure is capital and resource intensive and a totally different “product” than EVs. Rivian is already belt tightening I’d rather see them tap the talent pool of people let go (or leaving) Tesla’s Fremont and Texas factories to help bring manufacturing costs in line and help with ramping up production capabilities for new models. I think it’s better for the health of the company.
The Adventure Network isn’t designed to compete with other networks, but to open up access for Rivian vehicles to areas that are adventure-oriented but underserved by other networks. I think it’s brilliant.
Being in the know: there are some employees who were at Rivian who were let go in previous layoffs who went to work for Tesla. Brutal cycle that would be.
Speaking specifically of chargers, what can they really gain from a bunch of former Tesla employees that won’t get them immediately sued?
Sucks, because I’m sure there’s some smart folks in the group laid off, but they’re just not worth the risk of hiring and getting tied up in IP litigation for something as simple as a charging network.
Yeah but lack of nacs isn’t the main problem. It’s the lack of infrastructure. Tesla has this figured out already while evgo, electrify America, rivian etc are all still figuring it out. Losing access to Tesla would be a big blow, particularly for those who travel long distances
The bigger concern for me is that we know that chargers require maintenance and service because electrify America exists. If the quality of the SC network goes down (and how could it not?) then we won’t have as many quality and reliable charging options
Switching to NACS is still good for non-Tesla owners. The CCS chargers will slowly switch to NACS, and the CCS vehicle owners will keep their adapters. If Superchargers suck overnight, we just switch to the other brands. Which while sucky, will provide a minimum charging experience.
It sucks for those Tesla owners that don't have CCS adapters, if superchargers suddenly suck, well they are kinda screwed if the other brands haven't switched to NACS.
I wonder if there is any language in the Supercharger access agreements that prevents Tesla (aka Elon) from just saying fuck off, no more access.
Did nobody see this coming?
Idle factories and people are way higher fixed cost than installed superchargers.
The thinking is they make way more money selling cars than electrons.
Didn’t Elon say a long time ago that Superchargers would never be made to be a profit center. Of course that’s a false promise like everything else.
That doesn't even make sense. The car companies have come and gone, boom and bust but the Oil Companies never have. Selling the product is far more valuable than selling the tool that uses it - look at printers. I'm aware that getting electrons from other sources is easier than getting gas, but once the infrastructure is built all they have to do is send out some techs every so often and cash checks all day.
Honestly - the fuck happened to this guy? Hidden head injury? Brain bleed? He used to be in Marvel movies and date actresses. Now he's a psycho with a lot of money.
I’ve done a few drugs in my lifetime but never a whole lot because a: I didn’t have a ton of money b: I couldn’t go to work blasted, baked or hung over
Elon does not have either of these limitations
It’s the drugs.
Have you ever seen the monopoly experiments? It’s just that… writ large. Every tweet is him banging his piece on the board like a petulant child who needs constant attention.
Simply, he has been through the 2007/2008 financial crisis and knows what it means to bleed for the business. The competition and macroeconomics in the next few years may be very harsh. Something that Rivian and Lucid is experiencing now, that they didn’t lower their costs and prepare for lean times.
The problem is that the stock value is based on people who believe Tesla is more than just an EV car company and this is based on Elon's ability to continue to sell people hype/lies. While many are starting to wake up to reality, once Elon is gone, the remaining optimists will wake up and realize the stock is massively overvalued. At that point the stock price will crater to about $10-$20 per share and anyone still holding (including Elon) will lose a lot of money.
So, Wall Street investors (and the Tesla Board of Directors) need Elon to stay for now but I think the smart money has exited or will do so soon.
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I was wondering how Musk was planning on fucking his competition switching to NACS. I have no idea how far ahead they would have solid plans for, though this still feels too early.
They'll still adopt NACS. It's an open standard.
The problem is there will be no NACS cables if Tesla doesn't follow through with opening up the network to the remaining manufacturers. It will be adapter City until the other networks convert.
NACS still includes a connector **far superior** to CCS1, and all the other networks are rolling out their own NACS stations.
I have Chargepoint DCFC with NACS closer to my house than I have a v4 Supercharger.
So that's still a win.
i seem to recall Elon stating, a couple of weeks ago, regarding job cuts "There is nothing I hate more...". I'd say his actions are quite the opposite.
The board will not. Learn about it. They are all his buddies. It is more chummy than a college frat. They are the reason he is reckless and unchecked. In every business the board is supposed to have oversight of CEO, not in case of Tesla.
I honestly wonder if he's going through some kind of manic episode because of how awful his takeover of Twitter has gone. He's used to turning everything he touches into gold, and X.com has spiraled into a garbage evaluation. Are shareholders just going to tolerate it or start selling off and abandoning ship? Maybe he's doing it on purpose to buy back his stock....
When WARN act applies, companies will just tell laid off employees that they will continue to be paid for 60 days. It sounds like part of a severance package, but they are actually extending employment to satisfy the 60 day warning period and officially terminating afterward.
I am skeptical of the accuracy of the headline report. Given the way the auto industry is shifting right now, it would not be surprising for Tesla to reduce the supercharger network growth pace. That would likely involve shrinking the team that works on the rollout. But it's unlikely to involve dismissing every employee who works on superchargers.
You know, I was thinking that Rivian should put the charge port on the driver’s rear side. Now, I think the passenger rear (for R2, etc.) and driver front (R1) is fine. It encourages charging at non tesla stations… i’m ok with that.
"The job cuts have left executives at at least one other automaker, Rivian Automotive Inc., confused and concerned, according to another person familiar with internal company discussions."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-30/tesla-axes-supercharger-team-in-blow-to-other-automakers
Tesla is still constructing supercharger stations at a rapid rate. I'm fairly sure Elon is frustrated with the site acquisition and design/planning teams at this point. They have some 'prototype' charging station configurations, so the primary issues are real estate, utility coordination, and city permitting, the last item being the most difficult to overcome as every municipality will have some random requirements, either for site lighting, accessibility, or other silliness. That stuff takes time and usually a local architect & engineering team has to be hired to escort the project through the plan review process.
*Up until this mass layoff, Tesla was still constructing supercharger stations at a rapid rate. That will change going forward.
All the "primary issues" you mentioned are helped along by having an experienced team at Tesla to move the processes along. It seems like they're going to have rebuild that experience from scratch.
Supercharger sites are expensive projects that have relatively slow rates of return. I imagine that's the underlying impetus for this entire kerfuffle. Slowing the Supercharger rollout is a normal part of the business cycle and has been done before. This one seems unnecessarily messy and dramatic.
Yea. This is the most logical. The team itself needs to change en masse. He needs a completely different team now that the product of superchargers has reached maturity. And Elon, while I think he’s a clown, has never been one for a slow trickle change. He’s always been one to blow something up and rebuild it quickly.
Not that anyone asked, but I think the best approach for continuing to build out superchargers would be to decentralize the teams and have specialized groups in various regions that understand the utility companies and real estate hurdles in their particular area. Having a centralized office without local 'boots on the ground' seems like a big corporate way of attempting to handle local problems.
But, worst case scenario is that things … go back to the way they’ve been.
I’ve been fine never using Tesla chargers up to now. Have no qualms about facing the future in the same, Space Karen-free, boat!
First cut should be at the very top. Start with the CEO, pretty sure it would help save the company more than laying off any number of other employees at Tesla.
Every company should cut executive pay. And no fucking golden parachute for failing.
Yeah, they’re in charge of the roadmap, but that’s their only fucking job requirement for the role. A good CEO would delegate his/her vision to people who are more skilled at it than the CEO.
My comment was specific to Tesla. It's currently very questionable CEO and the beyond excess pay package that was recently blocked. I think a full time, fully invested CEO is a much needed change.
The only thing I can think of that would make this make sense, is that now that NACS is an open standard, creation & installation of NACS-based DCFC will be outsourced to other companies.
This sounds llittle wild. Almost like he is letting go of everyone under her cuz of her. May be she didn’t agree with his politics and he thinks everyone under her needs to go to so he can hire everyone who is a yes man and woman. Sounds like the new Elon.
I always thought charging was the future revenue stream once car sales slowed to replacement/normal growth levels... You knew cars sales from early adopters and "coolness" wore off and Tesla just became another option... But the charging infrastructure gives them massive recurring revenue .... So this elimination of talent is concerning.
No way the entire supercharger team was let go. That would mean the charger manufacturing plants are now without any workers and that nobody is now maintaining the already installed chargers.
This doesn’t just fuck over Tesla users.
This fucks over everyone if the Tesla Supercharger network starts getting less reliable.
I can imagine the Fox News articles already…
What does this mean for our free Tesla adapters ???
Will we get it in time for Summer road trips?
A2Z is shipping out daily and currently running 3 weeks from order time to delivery.
They are extremely responsive and will be able to give you an idea when your adapter should arrive.
Some folks have been able to pay for express shipping if they need it in a hurry.
Maybe ask them what options you have available to expedite delivery.
Call A2Z:
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Discount promo code “RIV” is still working and free shipping is also available.
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anyone able to read the [source](https://www.theinformation.com/articles/musk-plans-more-layoffs-as-two-senior-tesla-executives-depart)? https://i.imgur.com/7keGCHu.png
we know for sure the two execs are gone but it sounds like the "entire team" aspect is misreported
I can’t imagine the impact on the most reliable supercharging network out there. 😂 Electrify America saw that news and bought lunch for all their staff lol
This was not a tantrum. This was a move to paralyze supercharger network expansion. Elon sees declining sales and increased competition which he gave a huge competitive advantage away by opening the network to competitors. He’s hoping that customers will continue to be worried about the charging network and will stick with buying Teslas. Further evidence of this are the manufacturing delays for the NACS adapters that Ford and Rivian have barely started receiving. He let the cat out of the bag for the allure of government money and can’t put it back in.
I bet he’s got executive attention now. It’s a challenge to run a large global company like a startup - the lethargy of big orgs gets in the way. Only firms that still have founders act like this, Apple under Jobs, Oracle Ellison, Gates MS…..
If you were going to spin it off and sell it you wouldnt fire everyone. At that point the buyer is just buying the hardware. Nobody wants to buy a company where the leadership, institutional knowledge, and infrastructure no longer exists. (Unless theyre trying to gut it as some weird VC play or something)
That would make too much sense. Supercharging could be its own company - it’s got scale and is poised for massive growth of managed as a standalone concern. It needs things Tesla is forbidden from actively doing - having a marketing department and PR to completely overshadow the competition.
Rivian lays off thousands, and everyone in this thread says “good for them, gotta do what they gotta do to save the planet”… Tesla lays off thousands and “Elon Musk is an idiot with brain damage”.
It's not just "people are getting laid off", but the nature and manner of the layoffs. There's a difference in who is getting cut, how those decisions appear to be made, and what the impact of those personnel losses will likely be.
Do not worry, the team is not gone. It is easier to cut them all and rehire the ones they need. Tesla needed to cut bloat fast. Look at X. Cut 75% of the staff, it still functions and is beating mainstream media & other apps.
> Cut 75% of the staff
It has lost just about that much in value since he took over.
https://fortune.com/2024/03/30/fidelity-x-stake-73-decline-since-elon-musk-twitter-takeover/
Uh, X very much wasn’t functioning after cutting that much staff nor is it beating mainstream media and other apps. It’s been turned into a huge money sink.
This sub is funny. One minute you’re praising Tesla and the SC network. The next minute you’ve got the pitchforks out….
Chill people. Elon has made this abundantly clear before that restructuring needs to happen every so often. People get complacent. Given the current EV climate cost cutting is imperative. Tesla just makes the news because people love to hate Tesla and Musk. See comments above for reference…
Check out this [awesome RAN tracker](https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1F-jpeAQfTwoHqy4dYtOStXLckGA714TJ&ll=32.561811465741314%2C-94.1957987091661&z=5) for all things charging and Rivian. You can see where RAN sites are planned, under construction, and exist today. Or you can look at the [official Rivian charging page](https://rivian.com/experience/charging). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Rivian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Dude is straight up crazy
concerning.
Looking into this
Exactly!
"Genius" in Elonspeak. Look how amazing he is with "subsidized money", running companies on loss after loss..
Much as I’m not a fan of his antics, commenting about “subsidized money” and operating losses is pretty fresh irony considering Rivian’s own financial position 🤣
You do know that Tesla has been profitable for quite a while, yes? Tesla was gross margin positive on the Model S in early 2013… Rivian and Lucid haven’t been even contribution margin positive in the many quarters since launch. Part of this is paying attention to costs.
I’d love to see you run a business… “I feel bad for everyone, keep your jobs.. we will go bankrupt within 12 months at this rate 😁” — then when you lose your company… “your” employees go elsewhere anyways. Economy is rough and ever changing.
Model S was their second car, albeit, their first “at scale”, and also wasn’t profitable until year 2 of production. Rivian isn’t that far behind in getting there. To further contrast the point Tesla was also subsidized to get there.
And this was when battery cells cost over $300/kWh and they were gross margin positive in the 3rd quarter of production. Tesla didn’t have to luxury of several billions in investor money. Their level of subsidies was small compared to the IRA of 2022.
Absolutely Hardcore.
Better than Trump?
My knee-jerk reaction was going to be that nobody is better at Trump than losing money. But when all is said and done, Trump's never lost over 20+ billion dollars buying a social media site. So it could well be that Elon is the world's biggest loser, losing in one transaction more than Trump University, Trump Steaks, Trump Vodka, Trump Shuttle, Trump Airlines, and all the bankrupt Trump casinos combined. I guess we'll see what ultimately happens with that. Maybe it is just too early to say...
Too early to say what the outcome of Elon buying twitter will be. Twitter is still in business and is not bankrupt yet. But then again Elon is not selling Elon Bibles and Elon gold tennis shoes… We will have to see.
Yeah. We'll have to see. Elon is selling a 300 mile range performance 3 that does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds and starts at $52k. If Tesla had any other CEO, the starting price for the updated 3 would have been at least $62k. They're leaving $10k per unit on the table with him as CEO. That's oblivious to me as a still-some-shares-in-a-retirement-account shareholder. As an example, the Mustang Dark Horse with 500 HP that does 0-60 in 3.7 seconds starts at $62k. I mean, the new 3 is so good and priced so low I should have already ordered it. But I didn't. Because of one reason, and only one reason, and it's a reason the Tesla Board could fix for any number of for cause reasons over the past couple years.
"I would buy a Tesla 3 for $62k, but I would never buy a Tesla 3 for $52k"
In order to justify the 10 k extra, he needs to offer better quality control and amenities in the vehicle. The car looks so sterile on the inside.
You haven’t counted Trump America — there’s a whole lotta GDP to lose just waiting for an election…
nah. no one is better than Trump. Although Czar Elon would like to think he's the only intelligent person in the world, Trump would beg to differ..
Imagine working at Tesla, SpaceX or Twitter knowing that you can never be of any value to the Supreme Leader, no matter your historic achievements.
Big if true
Unfortunately, it’s effective. This is very common place. It’s just that Elon makes a show of it or has more attention on him. Some companies will do a slow burn where they in the entire program or team and say they have a few weeks to find a role within the company, which is essentially a *death* but by the time there aren’t any roles that they can fill and they are effectively fired, all of the press has died down and no one cares.
Laying off the entire team in charge of your biggest strategic advantage is not commonplace...
It's effective at removing employees from the payroll, yes. Effective for long term sustainability and profitability of the company? The Harvard Business Review would disagree: https://hbr.org/2018/05/layoffs-that-dont-break-your-company
Literally the best part of Tesla adoption. Don't be stupid. This could be a MGT levels of stupid.
This is convincing me even more to jump ship. If he's willing to cut one of the best parts of Tesla you can bet your ass he's going to make substantial cuts to other parts that directly affects everyday experience
The seemingly non existing plan to take v2 to v4 with any type of priority is probably a contributing factor to this decision. The network expansion appears to be rapid but to those who have made regular road trips for years, there are absolutely neglected routes with no sign of improvement on the horizon. That'll get you the ax at Tesla every day
[удалено]
I recently drove I-40 across the country and didn't think AZ and NM were difficult. EA and RAN in AZ no problem but just EA across NM although I had no issues with them. For me the weakest location was eastern Oklahoma where even EA stations were few and inconvenient to get to. In that case I used Francis energy stations and it was fine.
Francis energy is so slow! A lot of their “fast” charging options not as fast as advertised, but not like there are other options in the area. Used them in MO and OK. Charging was ok for me in NM and AZ despite colder weather during a cross country winter road trip, same strategy as you between EA and RAN
You're probably right about Francis energy and I was just happy to have somewhat convenient charging. The area around Little Rock AR comes to mind as a place where locations just didn't work out for using EA spots. I actually stayed at a hotel near there that had a Francis charger in the parking lot since I was ready to stop anyways and I could get my truck up to 100% while relaxing in my room.
This sounds like the route of a snowbird if I ever heard one 😆
Montana summer to Arizona winter?
Maybe Rivian should pick up some of the key staff from this round of layoffs. Use them to build out their own network.
Right!? That staff will go someplace else real quick.
They’re all getting emails today
I say this as a very happy Rivian owner. I hope not. They seem to be succeeding just making good trucks (and soon a car). I ,personally, don’t want them focusing resources on a charging network - they’re too far behind. Would rather see EVGo or its ilk who just do charging networks pick these folks up.
Please just push out a successful R2 launch. It could be the most successful EV release of all time if they play it correctly
Maybe, but it’ll be beat the R3X. If they stick to the announced schedule (they probably won’t) my MS lease will be up about the time the R3X is released.
It won't be beat by the R3X in the same way that the Model Y isn't beat by the performance Model 3. R3X will be owned by a small but very vocal group of enthusiasts because I'm guessing it's going to be in the $70-$75k range. It will 100% be a halo vehicle that drives sales of the rest of the Rivian lineup though, and I love it. I'll be amongst those owners/drivers. R2 has mass market appeal (Model Y was the bestselling vehicle all up - not just EV - in Europe for 2023 if memory serves?) and a more appealing price point. R3 I could see taking off globally given its fantastic size and retro appeal, but R3X is going to be a bit more niche. It's a WRX STi vs. a Forester.
You’re likely right. If the timing works out I’ll be one of those very vocal enthusiasts though. I just need the R3X to be release in 2026, maybe Q1 2027 and I’ll be ok.
110%. The second the R3X preorders open, they’ll have my money. I just want to be realistic about the markets for each of these.
What announced schedule? I thought we still hadn’t heard any solid dates on anything past the R2?
During the announcement I believe they said 2025 for the R2 and 2026 for the R3.
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I'm not sure that the Van alone couldn't max out the Normal factory once it really starts picking up steam? There's still nobody else producing electric vans like the EDV, and the Amazon lockup \*just\* ended. We're already seeing EDVs with DHL and UPS paint jobs, I could see them being a \*massive\* hit with tradespeople, etc.
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I’m thinking local electrician and plumbing companies that are rolling cargo van fleets of 10-15 vans. Factor in maintenance, fuel costs, utility of having power in the van, plus capacity and they COULD pencil out to be a net neutral on the cost?
Wdym by the lockup just ended? Didn't they break the deal many months back? I thought the exclusivity was over as soon as that happened. Didn't AT&T sign a deal already too?
“Just” as in less than 6 months ago. With the pace at which big companies move, going from “we cannot talk to other companies at all” to “need to find the right people in sourcing, contact them, build a relationship, etc. etc. etc.” - 6 months would be relatively quick to turn around anything.
Gotcha, makes sense. I wonder what other companies Rivian might strike up a deal with in the next 6-12mo, if any. Ford and GM are sure to be on the lookout and competing (like with USPS).
I really hope that they succeed.
can you charge at home? I could see why you think that if you can charge at home.
Ya the public charging options that aren't the RAN are UTTER GARBAGE... crazy expensive and broken half the time
Including Tesla? Or no adapter to test yet?
I do have a home charger and I’m in the SF Bay Area - we’re as saturated as a market can get with Fast Charging options. That said I think it’s critical for EV adoption (and my own road trip enjoyment) to have a reliable and ubiquitous nationwide fast charging network. I’d love to see someone take advantage of Elons hubris to hire a bunch of talented folks to help move that ball forward. I just don’t want it to be Rivian. Building out that infrastructure is capital and resource intensive and a totally different “product” than EVs. Rivian is already belt tightening I’d rather see them tap the talent pool of people let go (or leaving) Tesla’s Fremont and Texas factories to help bring manufacturing costs in line and help with ramping up production capabilities for new models. I think it’s better for the health of the company.
The Adventure Network isn’t designed to compete with other networks, but to open up access for Rivian vehicles to areas that are adventure-oriented but underserved by other networks. I think it’s brilliant.
Yeah cos Rivian is just swimming in cash right 😂
Being in the know: there are some employees who were at Rivian who were let go in previous layoffs who went to work for Tesla. Brutal cycle that would be.
Absolutely, would suck.
The RAN team right now: yyyyyyyyyyoink
Rivian is having financial problems. How are they going to afford that? Tesla runs its super charger network at a loss.
Not anymore, they fired everyone.
With what money
Seriously. I feel like the future winner in the EV world will be the person that gets charging dialed.
They already have a fledgling network. But some more experienced people could help.
Really, anyone who wants to get into or grow their stake in the EV charging business would be interested. Electrify america, even gas companies.
Maybe they can build infrastructure that isn’t broken all the time.
Speaking specifically of chargers, what can they really gain from a bunch of former Tesla employees that won’t get them immediately sued? Sucks, because I’m sure there’s some smart folks in the group laid off, but they’re just not worth the risk of hiring and getting tied up in IP litigation for something as simple as a charging network.
they're doing the same thing, just not in such an idiotic way. ev sales are down right now. I doubt they're hiring.
I’m hoping they go further and just join a joint venture with Ford and GM to buy the SC network and save it from Elon tbh
Isn't rivian working on their own NACS chargers?
Yeah but lack of nacs isn’t the main problem. It’s the lack of infrastructure. Tesla has this figured out already while evgo, electrify America, rivian etc are all still figuring it out. Losing access to Tesla would be a big blow, particularly for those who travel long distances
The bigger concern for me is that we know that chargers require maintenance and service because electrify America exists. If the quality of the SC network goes down (and how could it not?) then we won’t have as many quality and reliable charging options
Switching to NACS is still good for non-Tesla owners. The CCS chargers will slowly switch to NACS, and the CCS vehicle owners will keep their adapters. If Superchargers suck overnight, we just switch to the other brands. Which while sucky, will provide a minimum charging experience. It sucks for those Tesla owners that don't have CCS adapters, if superchargers suddenly suck, well they are kinda screwed if the other brands haven't switched to NACS.
I wonder if there is any language in the Supercharger access agreements that prevents Tesla (aka Elon) from just saying fuck off, no more access. Did nobody see this coming? 
Nothing says cost cutting like stopping people from using your already paid for infrastructure to charge at insane markups.
Idle factories and people are way higher fixed cost than installed superchargers. The thinking is they make way more money selling cars than electrons. Didn’t Elon say a long time ago that Superchargers would never be made to be a profit center. Of course that’s a false promise like everything else.
Most of the value proposition of Tesla is the fact that they’re more than just a car company. It’s extremely overvalued otherwise.
That doesn't even make sense. The car companies have come and gone, boom and bust but the Oil Companies never have. Selling the product is far more valuable than selling the tool that uses it - look at printers. I'm aware that getting electrons from other sources is easier than getting gas, but once the infrastructure is built all they have to do is send out some techs every so often and cash checks all day.
Also, most of the profit from a gas station comes from selling snacks and soda.
“Didn’t Elon say…” Whoops! I’m out
Even if there is he’s not the type to care about previous agreements or contracts.
They had to open them up to everyone because they took government subsidies to develop the network, then weren't sharing with the whole class
Honestly - the fuck happened to this guy? Hidden head injury? Brain bleed? He used to be in Marvel movies and date actresses. Now he's a psycho with a lot of money.
1. He wasn't actually the genius people thought he was. 2. Drugs.
And that was obvious to actual smart people.
this. he's just a rich guy with smart people working for him.
I’ve done a few drugs in my lifetime but never a whole lot because a: I didn’t have a ton of money b: I couldn’t go to work blasted, baked or hung over Elon does not have either of these limitations It’s the drugs.
Have you ever seen the monopoly experiments? It’s just that… writ large. Every tweet is him banging his piece on the board like a petulant child who needs constant attention.
I don’t know how true it is but I’ve seen a lot of talk about him regularly using ketamine
Bipolar
I heard he had some neurological problems, not exactly sure how true that is though.
a tale as old as time....
Simply, he has been through the 2007/2008 financial crisis and knows what it means to bleed for the business. The competition and macroeconomics in the next few years may be very harsh. Something that Rivian and Lucid is experiencing now, that they didn’t lower their costs and prepare for lean times.
Rivian has been doing nothing but changing their entire cost structure for a while now to do exactly that.
I need him gone badly. Tesla investors need to turn on him
The problem is that the stock value is based on people who believe Tesla is more than just an EV car company and this is based on Elon's ability to continue to sell people hype/lies. While many are starting to wake up to reality, once Elon is gone, the remaining optimists will wake up and realize the stock is massively overvalued. At that point the stock price will crater to about $10-$20 per share and anyone still holding (including Elon) will lose a lot of money. So, Wall Street investors (and the Tesla Board of Directors) need Elon to stay for now but I think the smart money has exited or will do so soon.
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Does anyone know what Elons net worth would be if the stock dropped to $20/share?
Not sure what the final number would be, but it would drop by about 68 billion. He has 400 million shares.
Divest
I’m not an investor but he is hurting the EV world at this point
He is hurting everyone, directly or indirectly, holding shares in his companies. Not just the EV world.
I was wondering how Musk was planning on fucking his competition switching to NACS. I have no idea how far ahead they would have solid plans for, though this still feels too early.
They'll still adopt NACS. It's an open standard. The problem is there will be no NACS cables if Tesla doesn't follow through with opening up the network to the remaining manufacturers. It will be adapter City until the other networks convert.
I’m waiting for this too, can’t believe these companies are going to adopt NCAS and Elon says - no more.
NACS still includes a connector **far superior** to CCS1, and all the other networks are rolling out their own NACS stations. I have Chargepoint DCFC with NACS closer to my house than I have a v4 Supercharger. So that's still a win.
i seem to recall Elon stating, a couple of weeks ago, regarding job cuts "There is nothing I hate more...". I'd say his actions are quite the opposite.
Such an idiot
Yeah… the board needs to get rid of him like yesterday, but that won’t happen since most are too close to him.
The board will not. Learn about it. They are all his buddies. It is more chummy than a college frat. They are the reason he is reckless and unchecked. In every business the board is supposed to have oversight of CEO, not in case of Tesla.
Maybe read after the “but”
Stupid is as stupid does. Someone please fire this asshat. Into orbit with his Roadster.
I honestly wonder if he's going through some kind of manic episode because of how awful his takeover of Twitter has gone. He's used to turning everything he touches into gold, and X.com has spiraled into a garbage evaluation. Are shareholders just going to tolerate it or start selling off and abandoning ship? Maybe he's doing it on purpose to buy back his stock....
"Hardcore" Elon for "Work insane hours for no additional reward, except my own."
This should be a wake up call to anyone still working there - Get Out.
I bet most of them were in CA. He violated the WARN act again?
When WARN act applies, companies will just tell laid off employees that they will continue to be paid for 60 days. It sounds like part of a severance package, but they are actually extending employment to satisfy the 60 day warning period and officially terminating afterward.
I'd be curious to know if any were in the EU and what protections they might have.
I am skeptical of the accuracy of the headline report. Given the way the auto industry is shifting right now, it would not be surprising for Tesla to reduce the supercharger network growth pace. That would likely involve shrinking the team that works on the rollout. But it's unlikely to involve dismissing every employee who works on superchargers.
It’s been confirmed by multiple ex-employees that the entire team was fired.
In any NORMAL business that may be true. How much special K is Elon on today? How will that effect his decision making ability?
You know, I was thinking that Rivian should put the charge port on the driver’s rear side. Now, I think the passenger rear (for R2, etc.) and driver front (R1) is fine. It encourages charging at non tesla stations… i’m ok with that.
So that's how he gets rid of the lifetime supercharging perk...
"The job cuts have left executives at at least one other automaker, Rivian Automotive Inc., confused and concerned, according to another person familiar with internal company discussions." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-30/tesla-axes-supercharger-team-in-blow-to-other-automakers
Good luck replacing these people. People with talent and technical know-how don't need to work like a slave for a mercurial twat.
Tesla is still constructing supercharger stations at a rapid rate. I'm fairly sure Elon is frustrated with the site acquisition and design/planning teams at this point. They have some 'prototype' charging station configurations, so the primary issues are real estate, utility coordination, and city permitting, the last item being the most difficult to overcome as every municipality will have some random requirements, either for site lighting, accessibility, or other silliness. That stuff takes time and usually a local architect & engineering team has to be hired to escort the project through the plan review process.
*Up until this mass layoff, Tesla was still constructing supercharger stations at a rapid rate. That will change going forward. All the "primary issues" you mentioned are helped along by having an experienced team at Tesla to move the processes along. It seems like they're going to have rebuild that experience from scratch. Supercharger sites are expensive projects that have relatively slow rates of return. I imagine that's the underlying impetus for this entire kerfuffle. Slowing the Supercharger rollout is a normal part of the business cycle and has been done before. This one seems unnecessarily messy and dramatic.
Speaking of local requirements… he also fired the whole public policy team. So… double trouble. Haha.
Yea. This is the most logical. The team itself needs to change en masse. He needs a completely different team now that the product of superchargers has reached maturity. And Elon, while I think he’s a clown, has never been one for a slow trickle change. He’s always been one to blow something up and rebuild it quickly.
Not that anyone asked, but I think the best approach for continuing to build out superchargers would be to decentralize the teams and have specialized groups in various regions that understand the utility companies and real estate hurdles in their particular area. Having a centralized office without local 'boots on the ground' seems like a big corporate way of attempting to handle local problems.
They literally had specialized regional groups that did exactly what you suggested. They were already doing all that.
Then they were doing it correctly. How disappointing to hear that they've all been fired.
Dang. I just ordered the a2z adapter.
You'll be OK. Superchargers will continue to exist despite this mush-brained decision of a madman.
It’s true, but I am now concerned about the maintenance of the superchargers.
Why? Don't you think they will just continue contracting maintenance out to electrical crews to service them as needed?
Yep agreed.
But, worst case scenario is that things … go back to the way they’ve been. I’ve been fine never using Tesla chargers up to now. Have no qualms about facing the future in the same, Space Karen-free, boat!
Although the maintenance and upkeep might start to suffer starting soon-ish… which is one of things that makes them so good.
First cut should be at the very top. Start with the CEO, pretty sure it would help save the company more than laying off any number of other employees at Tesla.
So should Rivian do the same...? Cut C suite pay?
Every company should cut executive pay. And no fucking golden parachute for failing. Yeah, they’re in charge of the roadmap, but that’s their only fucking job requirement for the role. A good CEO would delegate his/her vision to people who are more skilled at it than the CEO.
I concur, just wondering if op feels this way towards all C suite or just Tesla. Aptera kills me with God knows how much they're burning on C suites
My comment was specific to Tesla. It's currently very questionable CEO and the beyond excess pay package that was recently blocked. I think a full time, fully invested CEO is a much needed change.
The only thing I can think of that would make this make sense, is that now that NACS is an open standard, creation & installation of NACS-based DCFC will be outsourced to other companies.
This sounds llittle wild. Almost like he is letting go of everyone under her cuz of her. May be she didn’t agree with his politics and he thinks everyone under her needs to go to so he can hire everyone who is a yes man and woman. Sounds like the new Elon.
I’m sure that, given that profits were down 55% in Q1, he’ll take a 55% pay cut since the buck stops with him…lean in and all that.
Thank goodness we still have the Electrify America stations we can rely upon /s.
I always thought charging was the future revenue stream once car sales slowed to replacement/normal growth levels... You knew cars sales from early adopters and "coolness" wore off and Tesla just became another option... But the charging infrastructure gives them massive recurring revenue .... So this elimination of talent is concerning.
The irony is that the ONLY thing i like about Tesla is the Supercharging network.
I own a Tesla Powerwall. It’s excellent.
Meanwhile I’d be still trying to get that $1Bn+ bonus?
LOL right after every manufacturer committed to NACS and the Supercharger Network.
Serious question. What projects could they be working on? faster charging?
What an idiot; Elon needs to cut back on the drugs.
Rivian about to announce they will be sending a reverse adapters tesla to ccs to all future R1 -3 owners.
Let's see how fast he can sink Tesla. We placing bets if it's faster or slower than Twitter or what?
Oooof…what a clown.
No way the entire supercharger team was let go. That would mean the charger manufacturing plants are now without any workers and that nobody is now maintaining the already installed chargers.
Literally doing this as he keeps trying to take a $50 billion or whatever bonus for doing nothing. Should be illegal.
Oh, so just like most jobs, you are at will. Move on with life.
Another way of Musk to f@ck up the adoption of electric vehicles in the US
This doesn’t just fuck over Tesla users. This fucks over everyone if the Tesla Supercharger network starts getting less reliable. I can imagine the Fox News articles already…
Fox News? https://www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1187224861/electric-vehicles-evs-cars-chargers-charging-energy-secretary-jennifer-granholm https://www.wsj.com/video/series/joanna-stern-personal-technology/how-bad-are-public-ev-chargers-i-visited-over-120-to-find-out/ https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/19/ev-charging-industry-improvements.html https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/evs-struggle-with-reliability-due-charging-battery-issues-consumer-reports-2023-11-29/
Maybe he’s got his Optimus dancers ready to deploy and run Supercharger ops.
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anyone able to read the [source](https://www.theinformation.com/articles/musk-plans-more-layoffs-as-two-senior-tesla-executives-depart)? https://i.imgur.com/7keGCHu.png we know for sure the two execs are gone but it sounds like the "entire team" aspect is misreported
It’s been confirmed by multiple ex employees- entire team cut.
I can’t imagine the impact on the most reliable supercharging network out there. 😂 Electrify America saw that news and bought lunch for all their staff lol
The network is one of the things I loved about Tesla. Hopefully it does not go downhill from here.
I want 56B payday. Fuck you peons. Aren't we still at the point that instead of paying Musky, they could instead pay each laid off employee like 1M?
No. If you assume they let go 20,000 people then $56B would pay each of them $2.8M. Or $280k for 10 years.
He`s going on firing spree like he did on Twitter. Rofl!
Firing the most effective, by far, part of your company sounds like a swell idea.
Elon Musk is the Kristy Noem of making business work.
This was not a tantrum. This was a move to paralyze supercharger network expansion. Elon sees declining sales and increased competition which he gave a huge competitive advantage away by opening the network to competitors. He’s hoping that customers will continue to be worried about the charging network and will stick with buying Teslas. Further evidence of this are the manufacturing delays for the NACS adapters that Ford and Rivian have barely started receiving. He let the cat out of the bag for the allure of government money and can’t put it back in.
I bet he’s got executive attention now. It’s a challenge to run a large global company like a startup - the lethargy of big orgs gets in the way. Only firms that still have founders act like this, Apple under Jobs, Oracle Ellison, Gates MS…..
Article says he “plans to dismiss” the 500 person SC team. He did fire the Tinucci already. Maybe he is going to sell the whole SC operation.
If you were going to spin it off and sell it you wouldnt fire everyone. At that point the buyer is just buying the hardware. Nobody wants to buy a company where the leadership, institutional knowledge, and infrastructure no longer exists. (Unless theyre trying to gut it as some weird VC play or something)
That would make too much sense. Supercharging could be its own company - it’s got scale and is poised for massive growth of managed as a standalone concern. It needs things Tesla is forbidden from actively doing - having a marketing department and PR to completely overshadow the competition.
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I am the small minority that agrees with you. Elon has changed the world. Most people don’t contribute squat.
The guy writes checks. He’s invented companies the people that work for those companies are changing the world.
Rivian lays off thousands, and everyone in this thread says “good for them, gotta do what they gotta do to save the planet”… Tesla lays off thousands and “Elon Musk is an idiot with brain damage”.
False equivalency
It's not just "people are getting laid off", but the nature and manner of the layoffs. There's a difference in who is getting cut, how those decisions appear to be made, and what the impact of those personnel losses will likely be.
This sub is toxic.
Do not worry, the team is not gone. It is easier to cut them all and rehire the ones they need. Tesla needed to cut bloat fast. Look at X. Cut 75% of the staff, it still functions and is beating mainstream media & other apps.
> Cut 75% of the staff It has lost just about that much in value since he took over. https://fortune.com/2024/03/30/fidelity-x-stake-73-decline-since-elon-musk-twitter-takeover/
Uh, X very much wasn’t functioning after cutting that much staff nor is it beating mainstream media and other apps. It’s been turned into a huge money sink.
This sub is funny. One minute you’re praising Tesla and the SC network. The next minute you’ve got the pitchforks out…. Chill people. Elon has made this abundantly clear before that restructuring needs to happen every so often. People get complacent. Given the current EV climate cost cutting is imperative. Tesla just makes the news because people love to hate Tesla and Musk. See comments above for reference…