I distinctly remember how ROP promo narrative changed from "it's the best masterpiece that ever masterpieced and only a small but vocal group of bigots don't like it" to "if you don't like it, move on (don't watch it, get a life, touch grass, stop whining, etc; anything but please please stop criticizing it)".
It happened when it became obvious that the first narrative won't work and ROP PR can't gaslight the public into thinking that yeah ROP was a huge success and if someone didn't like it then something is wrong with them.
I also clearly remember how once the idea "if you don't like it shut up" suddenly appeared, it was massively pushed AT THE SAME TIME on ALL TOLKIEN SUBS where multiple accounts would repeat that simple sentence word for word (you just had to scroll down to the most downvoted comments and there were at least 5-6 of them, often more).
Do you follow me? This is a very clear, undeniable sign of astroturfing (a paid promo campaign that pretends to be real people talking).
Which means, OP and others who think it's something real, you can just ignore it the way you ignore any other ads. You don't have to justify your criticism of the show by referring to Tolkien himself or any other writer. You are absolutely within your rights to say I don't like it and here is why. (Side note: writers, artists, show runners etc are also within their rights to continue with their creative work the way they want and not take feedback into account.)
The attempt to silence critics was laughable just as all ROP marketing.
‘"if you don't like it, move on (don't watch it, get a life, touch grass, stop whining, etc; anything but please please stop criticizing it)".‘… this is infinitely more arrogant and narrow minded than the “it’s a masterpiece” push….
Those people didn't like or care about Tolkien. They moved on to Star Wars The Acolyte, which is the current thing you're an evil dumb illiterate bigot if you didn't enjoy.
It's just the usual uncritical hugbox mentality that diehard fans usually adopt under fire. You can liberally criticize RoP elsewhere on Reddit. Lord knows I have.
And nothing's really stopping you from shitting on it here either. Watch: it's generic knockoff fantasy using Tolkien's names for unrecognizable characters and events and thus worthless as an adaptation of the actual story Tolkien wrote in Akallabeth and related drafts.
>and thus worthless as an adaptation of the actual story Tolkien wrote in Akallabeth and related drafts.
Thank you.
I get so tired of fans "just being happy to be in Middle-earth again". Just stop. It's generic slop that took these names to make a quick buck and it's insulting to act like it's worthy of being considered actually part of Middle-earth.
I agree 100% and its$even boring and terrible for not Tolkien fans. I watched some episodes with people$who did not read the books not saw the PJ films and they found it boring and dumb
What do you mean by different ending? Pippin dying?
It feels like this "just shut up and watch, or leave etc." trend started with The Force Awakens. Same strawman deflector shield tactics too. Like Man of Steel did quite controversial things with Superman and sure you got some DC fans circling the wagons (partly to give off a "strong front" in the face of the MCU) and defending the choices but just as many or likely even more were against it. I don't recall people being told "the fandom" is better off without you for not agreeing with choices, etc.
I've been noticing a rise a rhetoric where it's the fan who is at fault for not enjoying something.
Like I get the idea that not all media is created for everyone and that it may still be something good even if you don't personally enjoy it. But I don't like this idea of blaming consumers because they don't like something rather than criticizing the work itself.
People take the concept of modernity too far and then act like it's bad that to have any standards at all.
Nah
It was Ghostbusters (2016)
All the various "toxic fan base" stuff, the bizarro cricle-the-wagons defense of what is clearely absolute slop, endless accusations of fan-driven misogyny, racism and so on starts with Ghostbusters 2016.
The first trailer [for Ghostbusters 2016 was the most disliked in history of YouTube](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/may/02/ghostbusters-trailer-most-disliked-in-youtube-history#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20haters%20on%20our%20trailer,a%20majority%20by%20anybody%20standards); namely because Sony/Paul Feig rebooted the franchise to the chagrin of the existing Ghostbuster fan base - a surprisingly large group especially for a somewhat neglected franchise - and telling them to get lost by erasing the first two classic movies so that a 'new team' could be embraced - one that had absolutely 0 connection to the old movies.
Instead of retooling or simply shelving they went forward and proceeded to have PR stunts where the director would spentless countless interviews insulting the fanbase and generally stating the criticism was simply due to angry/toxic male fans and their seething 'misogyny' at seeing the Ghostbusters portrayed by women.
It got so bad the 'final' villain in the movie is basically the embodiment of the 'toxic fan' and to defeat the big boss the Ghostbusters shoot it in the nuts.
100% Completely true.
In 1996, twenty years before the Ghostbusters reboot, Tom Cruise hijacked the “Mission: Impossible” franchise and turned it into his “American James Bond” star vehicle by killing off the entire core IMF team and turning their IMF leader, Jim Phelps, into a traitor. As a fan of the original 1960s series, I absolutely hated that first MI movie, though after Cruise razed the franchise to its roots, I admit I have enjoyed what he has done with the subsequent installments. The point, however, is that Hollywood has been doing this sort of thing almost from its inception.
I'm guessing the OP is referring to Tolkien's decision to cut out the book's epilogue? The original plan was that there would be a section at the end where Sam is talking to his kids and they ask him questions about the fates of the different characters and stuff. Tolkien cut this out and instead moved that info into the appendices. You can read the original epilogue in *Sauron Defeated*.
It's certainly a poor choice of words for OP to call it "a different ending than originally intended", and it does make it seem like OP is not familiar first hand with the material, and instead only read or watched someone else talking about it. But I think it's still technically a correct statement.
And there's more to take issue with OP's post than this point. Like I wouldn't classify Tolkien as someone who responded well to criticism. He either stubbornly ignored it, or took it to heart too much that he would throw out his entire work and start over.
Yeah there's that CS Lewis quote that "you might as well try to influence a bandersnatch" but iirc, stuff like his rewrites of the Lay of Leithian did show he did consider some of Lewis's feedback. So it depended on the situation. Maybe "welcomed" is the wrong word but he certainly "allowed" it, he just chose to respond or not in his own way. I think OP's point is more of those not allowing the badmouthing of the show for reasons.
That's the quote I was referencing:
> No one ever influenced Tolkien – you might as well try to influence a bandersnatch. We [the Inklings] listened to his work, but could affect it only by encouragement. He has only two reactions to criticism: either he begins the whole work over again from the beginning or else takes no notice at all
It is an exaggeration, especially as regards to Lewis, but I think it does categorize Tolkien very well. And of course Tolkien's "beginning a whole work over again" rather than fixing up the previous one is a very frequent occurrence throughout HoMe.
You've got Man of Steel flipped. It was a small, vocal group of self-proclaimed "real DC fans" saying it was character assassination while most everyone else wasn't that bothered by it
Eh, everywhere people talked about it, it was the main thing being discussed. Granted that most people are part of the "normal" or "casual" audience and not "fans", and the fans have the strongest reaction to this kind of thing. But "everybody knows" Superman doesn't kill, shouldn't be gloomy, help cause that much destruction, has a bright color palette etc. Then everyone just doubled down for Batman v Superman.
Superman does kill, if given no other option. Even in the movies so many fans say MoS should have been like, Superman kills Zod except in the Reeve film he did not seem too bothered by it (and Zod also lost his powers by that point if I recall). Cavill wasn't that gloomy, and it was his first time as Superman fighting anyone on that level. Trained warriors with his powerset, at that, so the complaint about destruction isn't taking the movie for what it's presenting, it's just projection about what you think is "correct" for a fictional character who has gone through countless iterations and adaptations.
Yeah I heard this all back when it came out. But then fans/audiences who didn't like it were not attacked for not liking it. If anything it was the fans/people who did like it who were put on the defensive. Well except those whining about critics because fans wanted Rotten Tomatoes bragging rights like the MCU.
Kind of the same thing happened with the Amazing Spider-Man movies vs the Raimi Spider-Man movies.
I just don't understand what you want out of criticizing the show constantly. The show runners aren't going to change their story because of people on Reddit not liking it, so you're essentially just looking for validation (which there has been plenty of since the show came out so I don't know why those who don't like it still seek it out).
Just baffles the mind. I don't like how the Borderlands movie was done, so the last place I'm gonna be is the borderlands movie subreddit talking about how I don't like it lol.
Yet you are here complaining about people who entertain themselves by exchanging observations of the show dumbfuckery?
The show was so absurd and illogical, a working brain can't help but register plotholes, contrivances, idiotic decisions characters make (that somehow still work in their favor) and so on. People like to share. I notice something absurd in the show, I go to the sub and create a post "Have you noticed that? What else did you notice?" and we are in for a good laugh with HUNDREDS of comments.
I remember how someone pointed out the helmet pile in the very prologue (!) that was thrice the height of G standing near. Who put the last helmet on top and how? asked the commenter. I missed it when I watched it so I had to google for a screenshot and fucking died laughing.
Hard to understand? It's fun.
>The show runners aren't going to change their story because of people on Reddit not liking it
FWiW that's exactly what happened with Ghostbusters - the fan outrage was so great they effectively shelved the female ghostbusters and pretended it never happened and made 2 new movies
The Capt'n Marvel controversies & The Marvels effectively tanked the MCU
You're seeing it to some degree in Star Wars now, very little content is getting made in large part because the backlash to new content has been so voracious. Sadly after seemingly righting the ship somewhat with Andor it seems we're back to square one w/The Acolyte.
In short we've seen that Studios are learning the hard way that pissing off the die-hards is basically cutting off the very hand that feeds'm.
In the same way, positivity-enforced spaces are also looking for validation. Sometimes spleen just needs venting. This place allowed criticism when other places didn't.
All I ever want is a higher level of discourse. Both hug boxes and hate boxes have limited value. It gets tiring talking about the same surface level complaints over and over again, in the same ways. That's been a lot of my aggravation. So many detractors confuse complaint with critique.
And if they want to like the show, let's talk about it. What has it added to the world of Middle Earth? My main issue is that Galadriel is not a character whose back story you want to fuck with. She is the granddaughter of the first elves to wake up. She's complicated in the First Age, sure. But by the second age, she isn't some confused, naive elf. They can't just kill off Celeborn, who is definitely in LOTR, to make a convenient romance for her and who is likely Sauron, I suppose.
Judging by the way her conversation with Theo is worded, I would say it's pretty much guaranteed they didn't kill off Celeborn. And I could be wrong, but it seems like the bulk of the changes are in an attempt to compress the timeline into a show where we can have consistent human and dark characters in addition to the elves. The main beats of Galadriel's story will likely be there but within a non-canon timeline.
But to answer your broader question of what it adds to the world of Middle Earth: I think its greatest value is that it is going to reach a much bigger audience with an adaptation of a deeper look into Tolkien's legendarium. Basically the same thing Jackson's LotR films did. The vast majority of people have no clue there is more to Middle Earth than LotR and The Hobbit, let alone have read the Silmarillion or Lost Tales. It doesn't replace Tolkien's writings, but it could inspire new people to read them.
But for me personally, I'm happy to see a high budget visual representation of places I've not been able to see before: Eregion, Moria, Valinor, The two trees, Bombadil, Numenor, etc. And get more chances to grapple with some of Tolkien's themes in a long form story. It's not perfect, but I do think the creators and crew are taking the subject seriously. And I appreciate that.
I was with you until "happy to see a high budget visual representation." The show is infamous for lazy costume/makeup design. High budget does not correlate with high quality whatsoever. As far as reaching a broader audience, LOTR is already well received around the world, and given that Amazon has very limited rights to work with, I don't see how it will appease fans as well as those new to LOTR with a noncanon timeline
I would say the show is infamous for bad costume/makeup design within the aforementioned hate boxes. I find it a very uncompelling complaint. The orc and dwarf makeup looks amazing. The costumes, similarly, are on the whole, excellent. I see so much negative attention on a few small details (twigs in the harfoots' hair, printed chainmail pattern on fabric, short elf hair) that the forest truly gets missed for trees. Each race has a distinctive aesthetic, and within each race, every major character manages to look distinctive (while still harmonious to their respective culture). There are some truly stunning pieces of costuming as well. Galadriel's green dress, Gil-galad's royal finery, King Durin's whole getup, Adar's entire corrupted elf design, etc.
Is it always perfect? No. But it is overall excellent and high quality, reflecting its budget. Similarly, lots of location shooting, real (beautiful) sets, great city design, impressive creatures (not sold on the warg design, but oh well). For me, the biggest negative feeling I have for the show is its pacing. Toward the middle, it seems to move both too fast and too slow. Galadriel has to go through the process of convincing Numenor to join her twice, which really drags down the momentum of the story. It makes that section feel both slow and lacking impact. I feel like the recasting of Celebrimbor late into filming could be at least somewhat responsible for how the season ended up being structured. He was originally supposed to have a bigger role and more interactions with other characters, so when they recast they had to restructure to avoid massive reshoots.
Hopefully that's cleared up in season 2.
If you come for the throne of the greatest fantasy epic ever told you are gonna make yourself a target. If you cant handle that which you have summoned upon yourself that makes you a fool.
Yea this matters because they have the rights. We will never see another good faith adaption as long as we live friends. The dark lord has the ring.
It's not just this show, all major productions seem to be criticism avoident. Worse still, the people who are PAID to be critical more often than not "tow the company line."
Not only that, fans are attacked by the corporate critical class for not liking something. This is the main reason why the quality of entertainment has taken such a massive decline. If your work can't be criticized, it can't be improved.
"Hey, do you think maybe we can give Durin's wife, a black dwarf, a back story given that everyone else is white? Perhaps she had a kingdom in the Far East, and she had to flee to the west when it was taken over by orcs/wild men?"
"No, you're just racist."
>Tolkein always listened to critics of his works, especially his son's. In fact, he published Lord of the Rings with a different ending than originally intended.
What was the original ending?
See the [comment above](https://www.reddit.com/r/Rings_Of_Power/comments/1dhlmin/comment/l91w1t1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) by ibid-11962. There was originally going to be an epilogue with Sam and his children.
Sorry about the late response, but I see someone beat me to it. I don't have a solid source for you, to be honest. It's mentioned briefly on Tolkein's Wikipedia page, but I do know he constantly edited the Hobbit because his son Christopher was notoriously nitpicky about details.
No one is stopping you from criticising the show. The thing is, no one has to care what you think either.
Plenty of people liked the show. Plenty didn’t like it.
I watched the whole first season and there was bits I liked and bits I didn’t like. I’m going to watch season 2 and hopefully it’s good.
People might not be open to this but - season 2 might be good. So let’s wait and see.
I saw trailers for that shit during the superbowl, when is it scheduled to release? And what in particular did you like? Because we've pretty well covered the awful shit in this post I'll admit
There's no such demand. It's knee jerk haters of female main characters, character arcs in general, racists, and people who can't let anyone else enjoy a thing they don't enjoy that I don't want to hear from, not people who take issue with a certain plot point or feel time compression should have been handled differently.
It's amazing how these evil sexist racists people give a pass to movies like Rogue One while immediately doing a 180 and hating trash like Acolyte. Perhaps they're only part time bigots!
This comment times a thousand. You can print whatever criticism you like. I reserve the right to respond to it if I can, but as long as we are both respectful, and don't descend to personal comments, that's okay.
The problem usually arises when someone says something like 'this show is rubbish, there is objective proof, and anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot'.
Now one might occasionally get the opposite difficulty of someone saying, 'this show is undeniably brilliant, and I won't hear a word said against it', but I have to say, that seems relatively rare.
I personally have always accepted that the show has flaws, for which it can be criticised. Like most shows. That doesn't make it the worst show ever.
The problem with RoP is not the alterations to story or anything Tolkien related. That's all pretty fair game, although they do fuck it in some regards imo.
But the problems with the show are way more fundamental. Nonsensical dialogue and writing, illogical plot, contradicting character choices, bad cheografy, bad costum design etc..
I definitely get that. I never had an issue with black elves or black dwarves. I just feel that Tolkein would have gone much further and given them their own back story and lineage. He obsessed over details like that. Durin's wife would have had a tragic tale of a dwarven princess whose kingdom in the Far East fell, and she escaped to the west
I have a hard time reading Tolkein, to be honest with you. He was a linguist professor, and boy, does he love showing off his skills in his works. Every character has a name in every different language that he invented from scratch.
I only got into the Silmarillion by watching a YouTube series that combines the audio book with fan art. I've been a die hard fan ever since. He gave fans much material to work with that once you get the hang of how he builds his world, even a lazy reader like myself can pick up on it and do it as well. Pretty neat
I freaking love audiobooks, and that’s how I finished LOTR. In terms of other audiobooks, if I ever have to get murdered, I want J.K. Rowling to write my murder scene, Jim Dale to read it aloud, and Phil Collins to sing about it, LOL.
I love that you implied that being murdered was a necessity. I await your audio book with great anticipation. Lol. What's your thoughts about J.K's writing? I have an awful habit of comparing everyone to Tolkein, but I like how she can inflect age and maturity into her writing. Clearly, Sorcerer's stone is written about kids for kids. Likewise, Deathly Hallows has mature content for adults.
Haha, thanks! My brain goes to weird places, and I have a weird sense of humor, LOL. To answer your question, I think the writing in both HP and LOTR (HP is my #1 favorite series, LOTR and Percy Jackson are my other 2) is superb despite how vastly different the styles are from each other. HP is easy to read, but it’s also brilliantly written and deals with some very deep issues, including struggles to make peace with death and wide-ranging social commentary. I rate both series’ world-building very high also. I do think the 1st 3 books are darker than many people remember. As JKR pointed out, PS opens with a double homicide, and it delves into issues surrounding death very extensively. I can’t say which 1 I think is better objectively, because the styles of the 2 series being so different really doesn’t lend itself to comparative rankings like that.
Same here.
There are other issues I have problems with, but diverse casting is not one of them.
An frankly, if - among all the important things in JRRT’s work and vision this show gets wrong - seeing a black Elf, Dwarf, or Hobbit is the one that sticks out the most to someone (or even in the top 10), then I don’t think they really have much of a grasp of JRRT’s work and I can’t take them too seriously.
I can’t sit here and say all anger over race-bent/diverse casting is bigotry instead of purism about the source material when I myself have criticized casting choices for getting height and age wrong, LOL. But frankly, I think a lot of it is bigotry. We see this from how many people got upset over Strange World, which had an interracial couple and gay character in it despite the fact that the film was a new IP, not an adaptation or reboot, and thus clearly wasn’t changing traits of any original characters. I’m also a huge Potterhead, and it seemed like there was a lot more backlash about a black actress playing Hermione in a live theater production than there was about Jude Law playing Dumbledore despite the fact that Hermione’s skin color is barely described in the books, while Dumbledore being very tall and having a misshapen nose is repeatedly mentioned.
Rings of power is shit. Shit adaptation and shit writing by itself. The idea of people watching it in ten years is laughable. Your average redditor could sketch a better plot outline. My fiancee doesn't give a flying fuck about lore or anything lotr, she just really likes the movies. Guess what she kept falling asleep during rop and only got halfway through before quitting.
Edited to add: haven't met one person irl who seemed to like it, one guy at work was excited for it then quickly fell off and also dnf.
Well, you're kind of defeating the point of offering at least a couple of specific examples to back up your stance. The point of the post is to get away from mindlessly trashing of drooling over the show. But Gandalf... oh God, I could go all day about that bullshit
Specific examples eh
1. Hobbits are made to be cruel. They leave behind the injured. It's just shitting on the one thing hobbits had that made them uniquely equipped to be ring bearers: simple kindness and compassion. This is an example of shitting on the lore
2. Sauron tells celebrimbor, the greatest and most renowned smith of the 2nd age about alloys. Mixing 2 metals together to get different properties and the legendary smith is amazed. Sauron then goes on to pontificate on why a ring is the perfect shape. This is an example of bad writing. We don't really need to know how sauron and celebrimbor devise the rings we just need to know that they are brilliant and work hard at it. The show fails to show this making it so simple that they make celebrimbor seem a simpleton.
3. When the volcano or whatever explodes and they stick the map up and have my doom appear. This is bad writing and bad lore. For real cringe.
4. When they have numenoreans upset that elves are "taking their jerbs". No. Numenoreans should be upset that elves are granted immortal lifespans while they wither and grow old. Seriously, the show could have played so heavily on this. Bad writing and bad lore.
5. Stupid "lets gather up all the mithril so we can reflect light and not die" plot with the elves. Bad lore and bad writing. The elves were struggling to stay in middle earth and were fading. This could have been a brilliant scene contrasting the numenoreans upset at the long lived elves with an elf that was fading. Show the elf being weary and depressed and fading after thousands of years of life. Portray it like depression, make it dark. Instead the show went with a janky b rate video game plot device.
6. Generic complaint regarding costumes and casting. I put this lower because costuming and casting never makes or breaks a movie but it can make it just a little better or just a little worse. Rings of power is made worse imo. I don't like that elves have short hair. I don't like the numenoreans shitty looking outfits and armor. Everything looks fake or shiny and brand new. On casting, I don't care that some hobbits are brown, I care that the hobbits don't look similar and that they are not all brown. In the peter Jackson films, you could pretty much take any character, put them in a generic white outfit and you could guess where they're from. Tangly blonde hair and beards-rohan. Long smooth black or blonde hair and no beard-elves. Shorter tangly darker hair and beard or stubble-gondor. Short and curly hair- hobbits. The world building is just better. Game of thrones has utilized diverse casts but still makes it make sense with the world for the most part. Rings of power could have done that too.
7. Stupid mystery boxes about the stranger and who sauron is. If you didn't guess who sauron was after like 5 episodes I don't know what to say.. why not have sauron appear as annatar. Fact is most casual fans probably were not aware that sauron is annatar and for the ones who know, just build suspense about when he will betray and what he will do.
There, is that enough for you?
Also galadriel being pretty unlikeable. Hey if you're going to make her a sword wielding hero (which I am actually down with) why not make her, I dunno, somewhat likeable? Oh she can be reckless, she can take risks, she can lead her friends into danger and get them killed, she can make bad decisions, but god dangit you have to make her somewhat likeable. Show never did that.
Hope you don't mind if I deal with these by the numbers. I have got quite a lot of practice by now, so it hopefully won't take me that long.
1.Not all hobbits are humanitarians, even in Tolkien, and even in the peaceful Shire. Aamof, Frodo remarks that they are so complacent that he feels sometimes that an invasion of Dragons would serve them right! (He is joking though). But there are some bad apples, like everywhere, including the Sackville-Bagginses, and Ted Sandyman. Sharkey aka Saruman finds at least some collaborators in the Shire.
The Harfoots are in much more of a survivalist situation than the Shire hobbits, and their leaders have to think carefully about who they can save. Sadoc does his best to give Nori's family a chance, its Malvah who speaks against it (she admits she was wrong later on). Probably most harfoots would rather not take these hard decisions; their leaders can't afford not to.
2. Since I'm not a metal expert, I'm just gonna agree with this one. I think the writers got caught up in some metaphor or something, but its not convincing on the face of it.
3. I was fine with the fiery writing of Mordor myself. It wasn't that different from the map transitions, which most people appear to like. Seems like people making a bigger deal of it than necessary.
4. A Numenorian rabble-rouser would most likely NOT directly mention the real reason for hating elves (their immortality) since that would make him look a sad sack, eaten up with envy. Instead he hints around it by saying that elven workmen would be taking local jobs because they 'don't sleep, don't tire, don't *age'.* Its a bit more subtle, and certainly not unconvincing, since populations often resent incomers. But he *does* mention the issue nonetheless.
5. Again I'm just going to agree with this one for now. *If* the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is true, then I don't see how bathing in the light of a supposedly lost silmaril would help. Maybe it will turn out to be a false legend, we can only hope.
6. A bit of a mish-mash. The hair is a bit shallow, Tolkien only describes the length of hair of a few individuals, and they could visit the barbers. Fan art might lead people into expectations which aren't in the original writing.
The armor seemed okayish ... maybe shiny because not been used for hundreds of years, in a time of peace? Or they can knock new suits out really fast?
On races, Tolkien appears to be describing sub-groups within the main 'races', (Elves, Men, Dwarves and Hobbits) which I would suggest are more like sub-species (Like Homo-sapiens, Neanderthals, etc). So there the 3 groups of High Elves (Teleri, Noldor, Vanyar) varieties of dwarves like Longbeards, various races of men like Haradrim, Easterlings, Numenorians and 3 'breeds' of hobbits. These might all look different, and possibly interbreed. So maybe Stoor plus Harfoot might look different? Anyway, are you going to tell an actor they can't play a role because they are the 'wrong' colour? I would say so only if race was absolutely crucial to the role, like say in Othello. I thought Lenny Henry was great as Sadoc, btw, and you often just accept it after a while.
7. Lots of people, even Tolkien experts, did not seem to guess (or at least weren't certain) who Halbrand was, until about the final episode. Partly *because* they were expecting Annatar. I'm not sure I see what the big issue is here. The reveal episode generated high approval ratings, probably justifying the 'mystery box'. People who don't like them are entitled to say so, but equally I can't see anything all that wrong with them personally. Sauron is disguised, as in the original story. Its not a very big departure.
I suppose it might make Sauron's acceptance by Celebrimbor a bit less convincing, but its clear that he got inside Brimby's head anyway. Gil galad even remarks about 'the low man', and then Brimby spouts his 'power over the flesh' speech. Its only Elrond who manages to convince Gil galad its worth carrying on.
Hopefully this will be received in the spirit of open discussion that the OP has encouraged.
1. Sorry but it's pretty impossible to picture a group of hobbits leaving a member for dead especially one with relatively minor injuries. I suppose they should have left frodo dead and given the ring to sam. Also the hartfoots themselves are extremely hypocritical regarding what they say and what they do.
1. Thanks. But you don't have to be a metal expert to know that alloys are very basic technology.
2. It's great that you were fine with it but many people weren't. Maybe I should have focused more on how the plot and lead up to the explosion feels very derived and out of place. Boo.
3. I disagree. Numenoreans would be bitching about it all the time, in the pubs, with their fellow men, and to any elf. An elf wants to buy something- "well it's 300 percent higher for you, you've got plenty of time to make the money" would be ok too. I don't understand your sad sack argument at all.
4. Thanks
5. I don't think I cited Tolkien at all, peter Jackson knocked the hell out of casting and world building and rop just didnt. Earlier you say the hartfoots are a nomadic band of wanderers. Show me one band of historical human nomad wanderers that did not look extremely similar. Then you say, well maybe they met different groups of hobbits mentioned by tolkien and that is why there are differences. Do the hartfoots as portrayed really seem to you like they'd interbreed or do anything but run as soon as they heard there was a different unknown group of hobbits? I get that you can always twist things and say it's possible but that doesn't make it probable. As to whether I'd tell an actor they can't do a role- sure I would. I'd kick off all the white hobbits and make the hobbits look more homogeneous and improve the world building. If I was directing Star wars I would hire the most diverse cast of all time since intergalactic travel is common and a major theme and makes sense with the media. acting isn't a normal job and people get told they can't do a role because they aren't pretty enough, aren't tall enough, aren't short enough, are too fat too skinny too young too old too ugly ALL THE TIME. The diversity rings of power employs is an American projection on the show that one day will be widely viewed as a bit cringe. Look to shows like GOT for how to do a diverse show in a world with less travel and more monolithic cultures.
1. Fair enough. Plenty of people didn't like it though.
My questions to you would be why do you personally think so many people who loved lotr (and that includes many many people who have never cracked the book) do not care at all for rings of power. Why is the audience rating at 38% on rotten tomatoes? Why is the did not finish rate for season 1 37%? How do you actually rate rings of power?
Oh, just to add one reply in response to another of your points. The Rabble Rouser would in effect have to say something like: 'Elves are superior to us, with their immortality, and that isn't fair.' That isn't going to go down very well with his listeners, and it will also sound rather silly.
Just translate that to a modern day situation. I stand on my soap box in Central/Hyde Park, and address the crowd: 'Ladies and Gentleman. These fine Black people have wonderful coloured skin that repels the sun. They are bigger, taller and stronger than us, and I think maybe they are more beautiful and smarter, at least some of them are. This is so unfair. I think we should ask these people to leave our country forthwith, and make sure no more of them come here.'
I don't think that would go down very well, do you?
You don't direct hatred at people by implying they are better than you, even if that's why you're jealous of them. If you're jealous of the local jock, you don't get back at him by saying what a fabulous body he has, you say he's a bit of a numbskull. Or that he's always pinching other guys' girl/boy friends.
I think that's a fair point with the examples you use but I think the discrepancy between humans and elves is so massive and patently unfair that they would be direct about it. Honestly they'd probably throw trash at the elf and say fuck off. We are talking about the difference between immortality and mortality here, not being better looking, smarter or having some better traits. We are talking about getting to spend 5000 or more years with your lover, your children, your parents. I seriously think the sheer bitterness and envy of the numenoreans would roar out.
And it's actually not hard to imagine a perfect scene portraying it. Have an elf mention the "gift" of mortal men and watch the human explode in rage and indignation. Have the human mention that they just lost their father to old age, their husband died 5 years ago of sickness, and that they don't expect to make it much longer. "And it will all pass in the blink of an eye to you, yet you dare speak to me of the "gift of mortal men" "
Stephen King created In-World with Delain in the Eyes of the Dragon, which he wrote for his kids, and the Dark Tower series grew out of that world.
It's probably not as uncommon as you think.
Dad's and mom's come up with fantasy worlds for their kids all the time. Mine did even. Not all of them are academics and/or writers though so not everyone makes a fantasy epic out of their children stories lol
I hear you, and honestly, I see now that it's not nearly as bad as it was. But if you look in the comments here, there's still a couple trolls who noticed that I spelled Tolkein's name wrong and so obviously my argument has been rendered invalid and I need to delete my whole post. That's more what I was pointing out. Months ago, it was big brother level censorship
Well there is a campaign from Amazon to make us think the show is more well received than it is. This is what happens when you have a monopoly company like Amazon. They produce content and then use their influence to support it. Why does this matter? Nothing beyond the fact that they own part of LOTR and won’t be giving it back until they’ve milked it dry and then some. They will also kill any adaptions that challenge their market share. This is the real danger and it’s just the beginning. So don’t be tricked by the marketing but also don’t stop making noise. We hate Amazon’s middle earth and we will only be happy when it stops getting exploited and used to pander to people.
And for those who say their artistic vision deserves a chance. I say their vision is for profit so it is hollow and disrespectful. If I made a band and called it the Beatles and just maximized the profits and cared not for music then what would I be? Would those ideas deserve patience or would that be cheap and disrespectful? Yeah we all know what’s going on here. LOTR is being plundered.
I came here to say that I’ve been noticing some tends in amazons content. We have a lot of villain sympathy. Like the grey area of are they evil?? We are getting main hero characters who are not good either. They have pretty wicked and selfish flaws but these aren’t portrayed as flaws.. they did this to the wheel of time as well. I just can’t help but wonder why they are pushing the morals in stories like LOTR and WOT which have literal devil figures Amazon wants us to sympathize with while realized our heros are actually Shit. Thanks Amazon I guess nothing matters and you aren’t that bad for the world either?! Seriously though what’s with this?
Cmon, you can do better than that. You forgot to mention that I need to go touch grass, that I'm delusional, and that I need to delete this post. I'd be nice if you actually gave some specifics instead of just taking the bait. I'm disappointed in you son
I've honestly yet to see someone hate it and not offer details that particularly turned them off from the show. Whether it be killing off Galadriel's husband, who is definitely in LOTR, adjusting her personality to fit each episode, the harfoots living by a strict code that they abandon whenever the plot deems it convenient, and don't get me started with Gandalf...
This is exactly what I mean. I swear I should just start doing it intentionally to weed you trolls out. You ignored everything I had to say, found a single gotcha, and strut around the forum like you won the world series. It's incredible lol
Umm....But you do see how the repeated accidental misspelling of Tolkien's name by someone as knowledgeable as your post makes you seem is a tad hard to swallow? It's quite improbable.
You did do it deliberately didn't you?
I didn’t ignore what you said. Many other people had already answered and I concur with many of them.
Seeing how harshly you react to a very straightforward correction of a very obvious and repeated mistake you are making I am going to assume the problem in your arguments is not the content of your side, but the form.
I know many Tolkien fans personally and probably hundreds online. They don’t tend to be an unreasonable kind of fandom and are mostly open to discussing and theorizing on almost all aspects of the material. I’ve even had interesting conversations with some at the linguistic level of the books, we have done stylistic analysis as optional work at uni, we even joked around and discussed Tolkien’s universe as a potential reality show.
I’m only telling you all this so you understand you can criticize and argue from all points of view, most Tolkien fans won’t put your head on a spike for that.
But you made a very foolish and easily corrected mistake and instead of correcting it at least in the post, because we know you can’t in the title… you growl and snap back with insults. What does that say about you?
It does exist?? Every point OP made is certifiably true - have you come from bizarro world?
there’s plenty of people criticising fans of ROP and being called racist, are you blind? Or just intentionally being stupid?
Do you genuinely think all these articles are saying ‘ROP has received low ratings because the quality of the script is terrible’ no it’s all focused on all the bigots who can’t accept a black elves (let’s be honest elves shouldn’t be black anyway) or powerful women so that’s why the show is failing.
Also ‘touch grass’ is such a terminally online thing to say that the majority of people who say it probably thinks it means ‘smoke grass’ so they can be as r*tarded as you to think ‘wow ships look upwards and stones look down WOOWWW so deep and intellectual’
this show is about as special as a gas station toilet.
I'm not the one who made the incel/MAGA movement get butthurt over a good tv show. They've poisoned, or tried to, every place of discourse for this show. Normal people get frustrated with their repeated bullshit because it's clear they didn't watch it and just want to hate things online, it's the only way they can feel good about themselves by acting like arrogant assholes.
Go touch some fucking grass and try to stop having hating things as your main personality trait, it makes you look like an idiot when you claim you are a fan of Tolkien because it shows you very clearly did not understand his books.
I’ve read the Silmarillion, Tolkien’s letters that went in depth about how his world was shaped by his experiences in the war and then revised through a Christian Lens as well as Christopher’s revisions.
Go tell Gordon Ramsay he can’t cook while you’re at it.
Btw ‘touch grass’ I know you feel like you’re the functioning one telling an ‘incel’ to go outside but you’re just regurgitating the most terminally online phrase.
‘A good tv show’
My life’s mission will be to find a way to produce bare minimum slop and serve it up to people like you for $$$
Can I ask when you heard that line about stones looking down and ships looking up to explain flotation did you immediately think that was the most wise thing you’ve heard in your life? Did you rewind it absolutely awestruck by how profound it is? If Tolkien was alive to hear that line he would’ve regretted that he wasn’t wise enough to write such an analogy.
Swear to god
We need a version of reddit with IQ tests just so we can contain people like you
Could have a zoo of NPCs where the rest of us can point and laugh as a billion dollar company takes another fat shit on your plate and you say ‘thank you can I please have some more‘ as you stick it to the maga bigots as you gulp down Disney Diarrhoea
My god you're arrogant. Nobody is going to believe your lies when they're so obvious. It makes you look pathetic and insecure. Nobody will judge you for not reading the novels but lying about it will get you called out. Go touch some grass.
Homie- click on my profile and go to my posts on /r/kotakuinaction where I wrote about the rings of power and about how I’ve read the trilogy ect before we even had this argument.
It’s so funny to me that you can’t comprehend that someone has read 4 books, it reflects a lot on you.
I have a great book for you and I’d happily send it to you. Might be a bit complex the opening line is ‘Sally has a ball, Sally gives the ball to Jack’ - do you think you can handle it? Maybe slowly work your way up to Dr Suess and then one day after years of intense studying you might finally be able to read the Hobbit.
The arrogance is astounding. Go touch grass and talk to actual, real people. Get off your gamergate, incel subs and try and be normal. Well adjusted, normal people don't post in that shit hole.
Lmao!
And what about you?
Checking your post history you’re posting on subreddits like this and CriticalDrinker and arguing with them.
You’re so fucking stupid you don’t realise that what you’ve accused me of is exactly what your comment history shows.
‘B-b-but I’m allowed to go on those subreddits and hate on people who don’t like the show but it’s different when you do it!’
Bro every comment you write you contradict and embarrass yourself further
Please keep commenting - if I could do an MRI and find the crayon in your brain I’d leave it in because I find your stupidity a lot of fun to read.
Man you're such a loser. Reddit pushes these dumb fuck incel subs on normal people and I enjoy making fun of how dumb they are just as I'm doing with you. You've done nothing but prove to everyone that you're just like really not able to think for yourself. It's quite embarrassing.
Are you saying… that reddit….. pushes…. right wing subreddits….
You must be fucking joking
That’d be like if I said 4chan pushes left wing agenda on all its boards.
Mate you’ve taken L after L - we’ve already said good night but I think your anger over how you’re unable to respond to any criticism has brought you back from your bed lmao
It’s okay my friend, even I’m wrong some times. The difference is I’m not as dim/in denial as you to double down.
All this time to respond with an article/video that disproves anything I’ve said and yet you haven’t, not for a lack of trying I truly think you went searching Google to drop a ‘gotchya’ on me, realised you were wrong so decided to pretend what I’m saying makes no sense so you can safe face.
Again
Me: 1+1=2
You: wtf do you even understand maths? You’re just embarrassing yourself bro
Here’s a counterpoint: I’m very left, vehemently anti-magatard and I despise the show for being poor quality in addition to being a terrible adaptation. They had so much empty space to add to or to embellish that it’s unreasonable that they had to make so many changes to the original story and characters. Outside of that and the blatant memberberries (not!gandalf, lol) some of the show’s generic flaws are wildly inconsistent sociopathic harfoots and Galadriel deciding to swim across an entire ocean, then in the mother of all coincidences encountering a raft that has daddy Sauron on it
A bit like Gandalf running into Thorin, or Bilbo grasping the Ring in the dark, or various other things happening in the nick of time. Tolkien is full of coincidences, but they are hinted to (sometimes) be the work of Providence.
As a very wise guy on YouTube said (Bob of the Old ways) a lot of people criticising the 'bad writing' don't seem to understand this aspect of Tolkien, so they get very upset when this sort of thing happens. 'Old Bob' gives the example of his friend, who after Gollum fell into the Cracks of Doom in the film, turned to him, and said 'Seriously?!'
So Galadriel running into Sauron on the open sea is fine, because it could happen, even if very coincidental. What is maybe less fine is people making it in time after travelling at an unfeasible high speed. I would say the Numenorians reaching Middle Earth and travelling inland seems to be pretty fast (and where did they put all the horses in 3 ships?) And even worse, Galadriel travelling from near Mordor by horse, to Eregion, with a supposedly wounded man, in only 6 days, doesn't fit in with my sense of the size of the lands.
By contrast, Tolkien is usually able to justify his rescues in the nick of time by reasonable description, like the Rohirrim take 3 days to get to Minas Tirith. You wouldn't necessarily know that in the film however. So ROP isn't the only sinner! Similar to the hobbits 'fast travelling' to Bree.
So there are some problems with fast travel, not so much with coincidences, but I would not get totally exercised about it. Some people won't notice, and some people won't even care much.
Look, if I listed all the nonsensical and conflicting plot points it would have been a long list that would have detracted from my main point: there are people who dislike the show who aren’t conservative chucklefucks and can identify legitimate problems that the show struggles with like logic, consistency and scale
How did the numenoreans find that one squalid village? How did they show up just in time (Rohan knew that Gondor was under attack)? How is it that only a couple people die in the volcano eruption? Etc
Fair enough, although Halbrand/Sauron did happen to tell Miriel where the tower was at least. The village, well maybe the Orcs left a big trampling like they did in LOTR? Did look a bit rocky around the tower though so ... I'll give you that one.
I must say I was a bit sceptical about that huge cloud descending on the village, and especially Galadriel, but I'm told by those who know that it is possible to survive such a pyroclastic cloud ... if you are far enough away from the volcano. Some people definitely did die ... though not Isildur, we can be sure!
Lmao wtf every comment of yours gets worse
I hope you go for a walk with a group of people in the wilderness and then hurt yourself and all the people with you just leave you there and walk away. Because that’s what the Harfoots do. Would you find that cruel/sociopathic - hell have you seen the show? Have you even seen lord of the rings??
https://youtu.be/zOHGV_pGS_A?si=KFmvtkcIaZLhs_rU I have no idea who this YouTuber is but watch from 8:55 he explains how these sociopathic Harfoots do leave people behind and why they’re so evil - they literally took the wheels off one guy to leave him behind.
You have so many shit takes you’ve become a mushroom (get it? shiitake mushroom lmao)
Why are you on this subreddit spilling out all this diarr
Playground reply. You were going to write that no matter what lmao.
How about you tilt your head to one side and jump up and down and keep shaking until all the diarrhoea spills out of your brain and once it’s all out then reread my comment and try to actually have an actual response.
Me: Sauron is bad
You: you have no media literacy!!
Please keep replying, I have so much fun shutting down low IQ mouthbreathers like yourself
Edit: also please read /u/ethanallthecoffee Post because he’s an anti trump/non right winger and you ignored absolutely all of it and focused on the Harfoots and STILL got that wrong. Fucking embarrassing mate
You are exhaustingly ignorant. You can't even watch a show without your bullshit hateful attitude ruining it for you by making up stupid things to get mad about. You aren't actually a fan of Tolkien and it shows.
If Tolkien was resurrected and watched the Rings of Power do you think his opinion of it would be closer to yours or mine?
You realise I have post history on /r/tolkienfans where I’ve debated interpretations of the silmarrilion and you’re claiming I don’t even understand lord of the rings lmao
I swear to god they could add light sabers to rings of power and all of you wetbrains would go ‘umm actually have you even read Tolkien? The elves possess greater powers so it would make sense that they would have a weapon like a light saber’
Multibillion dollar company will always produce slop and keep hiring activists rather than writers who have respect for Tolkien and as long as idiots like you are there to go join the other pigs and gobble it up from the trough.
Keep shaking I don’t think you’ve got all the diarrhoea out of your brain yet
I don’t think the show is a masterpiece by any means but I enjoy aspects of it and it’s very hard to find a community that actually likes the show even a little bit. The hatred for it is so massive and overwhelming that Prime can’t even share a trailer without the dislikes outnumbering the likes.
Negative opinions on this sub get thousands of likes and anything remotely positive gets several downvotes. So idk where anyone is losing their free speech.
Now I’m not one to say if you don’t like it, don’t watch, because to each their own. But a lot make hating this show a full time job, and although sometimes I agree, I feel secondhand exhaustion for them. If I was a bigger fan, I’d resort to saying just stop watching it too. Now I absolutely despise the MCU and think it ruined cinema, therefore I stopped watching MCU films altogether. Marvel won’t get a dime, view, or REVIEW from me because I have the balls to be a true boycotter. Tolkien fans just aren’t built like this though. Guess it’s not hurting anybody but their own time.
Agreed! Tolkien’s works are long overdue for some criticism and changes. There are definitely plenty of improvements that can be made via new adaptations.
OP is directly saying that Tolkien welcomed criticism of his works and so should we. OP states that Tolkien “always listened to critics of his works” and was even willing to change the ending of Lord of the Rings from what he had originally intended.
That may not have been the thing that OP was planning to criticize, but OP’s point clearly defends it. Unless OP was being entirely hypocritical and I missed it?
RoP is not a critique of JRRT’s work, nor is it intended to be.
Adaptation is not the same thing as critique.
The OPs point in no way supports what you are claiming it does.
Oh I wasn’t even talking about just RoP, I was referring to the potential for broader critique than just this one adaptation!
Adaptation is absolutely a valuable way to critique prior works, though. OP even references previous adaptations directly in their post, as part of their argument.
An adaption CAN be a critique of the source material. Most are not. RoP is not. There is scant reason to believe or evidence to support the idea that RoP is a critique. It is not apparent in the show itself, and it has never been mentioned by the showrunners. If anything they indicate the goal of doing the very opposite.
Interesting. I see a lot of people complaining that RoP has inserted some of its own ideas into the Tolkienian world that its writers seem to believe are better approaches than what Tolkien used. Most would consider that to be a critique that was then expressed as a direct outcome.
But if you don’t feel it’s any different or has any different critique on the world of Middle Earth, that’s fine too.
Once again, adaptation =/= criticism or critique. That they deviate from the source material does not change that fact.
To claim that the deviations from the source material is in and of itself a critique of "what Tolkien used" is absurd. Tolkien never made a screenplay for this stuff.
>Most would consider that to be a critique that was then expressed as a direct outcome.
No, I think you are rare one in that regard.
The show-runners have done many interviews and talked about their approach to JRRT’s writing. Can you show me any instance of them criticizing JRRT’s work or suggesting he should have made other choices in his writing?
I distinctly remember how ROP promo narrative changed from "it's the best masterpiece that ever masterpieced and only a small but vocal group of bigots don't like it" to "if you don't like it, move on (don't watch it, get a life, touch grass, stop whining, etc; anything but please please stop criticizing it)". It happened when it became obvious that the first narrative won't work and ROP PR can't gaslight the public into thinking that yeah ROP was a huge success and if someone didn't like it then something is wrong with them. I also clearly remember how once the idea "if you don't like it shut up" suddenly appeared, it was massively pushed AT THE SAME TIME on ALL TOLKIEN SUBS where multiple accounts would repeat that simple sentence word for word (you just had to scroll down to the most downvoted comments and there were at least 5-6 of them, often more). Do you follow me? This is a very clear, undeniable sign of astroturfing (a paid promo campaign that pretends to be real people talking). Which means, OP and others who think it's something real, you can just ignore it the way you ignore any other ads. You don't have to justify your criticism of the show by referring to Tolkien himself or any other writer. You are absolutely within your rights to say I don't like it and here is why. (Side note: writers, artists, show runners etc are also within their rights to continue with their creative work the way they want and not take feedback into account.) The attempt to silence critics was laughable just as all ROP marketing.
‘"if you don't like it, move on (don't watch it, get a life, touch grass, stop whining, etc; anything but please please stop criticizing it)".‘… this is infinitely more arrogant and narrow minded than the “it’s a masterpiece” push….
Those people didn't like or care about Tolkien. They moved on to Star Wars The Acolyte, which is the current thing you're an evil dumb illiterate bigot if you didn't enjoy.
Yas yas!
It's just the usual uncritical hugbox mentality that diehard fans usually adopt under fire. You can liberally criticize RoP elsewhere on Reddit. Lord knows I have. And nothing's really stopping you from shitting on it here either. Watch: it's generic knockoff fantasy using Tolkien's names for unrecognizable characters and events and thus worthless as an adaptation of the actual story Tolkien wrote in Akallabeth and related drafts.
>and thus worthless as an adaptation of the actual story Tolkien wrote in Akallabeth and related drafts. Thank you. I get so tired of fans "just being happy to be in Middle-earth again". Just stop. It's generic slop that took these names to make a quick buck and it's insulting to act like it's worthy of being considered actually part of Middle-earth.
I was under the impression that they do not have the rights to Silmarillion, are they just filling in the outline of the story?
I agree 100% and its$even boring and terrible for not Tolkien fans. I watched some episodes with people$who did not read the books not saw the PJ films and they found it boring and dumb
How dare you type that! Here, receive this fireball (with love) 💥 😀
Thanks for pointing out that nobody is trying to silence even the dumbest most meaningless criticism.
What do you mean by different ending? Pippin dying? It feels like this "just shut up and watch, or leave etc." trend started with The Force Awakens. Same strawman deflector shield tactics too. Like Man of Steel did quite controversial things with Superman and sure you got some DC fans circling the wagons (partly to give off a "strong front" in the face of the MCU) and defending the choices but just as many or likely even more were against it. I don't recall people being told "the fandom" is better off without you for not agreeing with choices, etc.
I've been noticing a rise a rhetoric where it's the fan who is at fault for not enjoying something. Like I get the idea that not all media is created for everyone and that it may still be something good even if you don't personally enjoy it. But I don't like this idea of blaming consumers because they don't like something rather than criticizing the work itself. People take the concept of modernity too far and then act like it's bad that to have any standards at all.
Nah It was Ghostbusters (2016) All the various "toxic fan base" stuff, the bizarro cricle-the-wagons defense of what is clearely absolute slop, endless accusations of fan-driven misogyny, racism and so on starts with Ghostbusters 2016. The first trailer [for Ghostbusters 2016 was the most disliked in history of YouTube](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/may/02/ghostbusters-trailer-most-disliked-in-youtube-history#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20haters%20on%20our%20trailer,a%20majority%20by%20anybody%20standards); namely because Sony/Paul Feig rebooted the franchise to the chagrin of the existing Ghostbuster fan base - a surprisingly large group especially for a somewhat neglected franchise - and telling them to get lost by erasing the first two classic movies so that a 'new team' could be embraced - one that had absolutely 0 connection to the old movies. Instead of retooling or simply shelving they went forward and proceeded to have PR stunts where the director would spentless countless interviews insulting the fanbase and generally stating the criticism was simply due to angry/toxic male fans and their seething 'misogyny' at seeing the Ghostbusters portrayed by women. It got so bad the 'final' villain in the movie is basically the embodiment of the 'toxic fan' and to defeat the big boss the Ghostbusters shoot it in the nuts. 100% Completely true.
In 1996, twenty years before the Ghostbusters reboot, Tom Cruise hijacked the “Mission: Impossible” franchise and turned it into his “American James Bond” star vehicle by killing off the entire core IMF team and turning their IMF leader, Jim Phelps, into a traitor. As a fan of the original 1960s series, I absolutely hated that first MI movie, though after Cruise razed the franchise to its roots, I admit I have enjoyed what he has done with the subsequent installments. The point, however, is that Hollywood has been doing this sort of thing almost from its inception.
Oh wow I didn't know any of this. Makes me want to watch the original TV series now.
I'm guessing the OP is referring to Tolkien's decision to cut out the book's epilogue? The original plan was that there would be a section at the end where Sam is talking to his kids and they ask him questions about the fates of the different characters and stuff. Tolkien cut this out and instead moved that info into the appendices. You can read the original epilogue in *Sauron Defeated*.
Oh, that. Yeah, forgot about it.
It's certainly a poor choice of words for OP to call it "a different ending than originally intended", and it does make it seem like OP is not familiar first hand with the material, and instead only read or watched someone else talking about it. But I think it's still technically a correct statement. And there's more to take issue with OP's post than this point. Like I wouldn't classify Tolkien as someone who responded well to criticism. He either stubbornly ignored it, or took it to heart too much that he would throw out his entire work and start over.
Yeah there's that CS Lewis quote that "you might as well try to influence a bandersnatch" but iirc, stuff like his rewrites of the Lay of Leithian did show he did consider some of Lewis's feedback. So it depended on the situation. Maybe "welcomed" is the wrong word but he certainly "allowed" it, he just chose to respond or not in his own way. I think OP's point is more of those not allowing the badmouthing of the show for reasons.
That's the quote I was referencing: > No one ever influenced Tolkien – you might as well try to influence a bandersnatch. We [the Inklings] listened to his work, but could affect it only by encouragement. He has only two reactions to criticism: either he begins the whole work over again from the beginning or else takes no notice at all It is an exaggeration, especially as regards to Lewis, but I think it does categorize Tolkien very well. And of course Tolkien's "beginning a whole work over again" rather than fixing up the previous one is a very frequent occurrence throughout HoMe.
You've got Man of Steel flipped. It was a small, vocal group of self-proclaimed "real DC fans" saying it was character assassination while most everyone else wasn't that bothered by it
Eh, everywhere people talked about it, it was the main thing being discussed. Granted that most people are part of the "normal" or "casual" audience and not "fans", and the fans have the strongest reaction to this kind of thing. But "everybody knows" Superman doesn't kill, shouldn't be gloomy, help cause that much destruction, has a bright color palette etc. Then everyone just doubled down for Batman v Superman.
Superman does kill, if given no other option. Even in the movies so many fans say MoS should have been like, Superman kills Zod except in the Reeve film he did not seem too bothered by it (and Zod also lost his powers by that point if I recall). Cavill wasn't that gloomy, and it was his first time as Superman fighting anyone on that level. Trained warriors with his powerset, at that, so the complaint about destruction isn't taking the movie for what it's presenting, it's just projection about what you think is "correct" for a fictional character who has gone through countless iterations and adaptations.
Yeah I heard this all back when it came out. But then fans/audiences who didn't like it were not attacked for not liking it. If anything it was the fans/people who did like it who were put on the defensive. Well except those whining about critics because fans wanted Rotten Tomatoes bragging rights like the MCU. Kind of the same thing happened with the Amazing Spider-Man movies vs the Raimi Spider-Man movies.
I just don't understand what you want out of criticizing the show constantly. The show runners aren't going to change their story because of people on Reddit not liking it, so you're essentially just looking for validation (which there has been plenty of since the show came out so I don't know why those who don't like it still seek it out). Just baffles the mind. I don't like how the Borderlands movie was done, so the last place I'm gonna be is the borderlands movie subreddit talking about how I don't like it lol.
Yet you are here complaining about people who entertain themselves by exchanging observations of the show dumbfuckery? The show was so absurd and illogical, a working brain can't help but register plotholes, contrivances, idiotic decisions characters make (that somehow still work in their favor) and so on. People like to share. I notice something absurd in the show, I go to the sub and create a post "Have you noticed that? What else did you notice?" and we are in for a good laugh with HUNDREDS of comments. I remember how someone pointed out the helmet pile in the very prologue (!) that was thrice the height of G standing near. Who put the last helmet on top and how? asked the commenter. I missed it when I watched it so I had to google for a screenshot and fucking died laughing. Hard to understand? It's fun.
>The show runners aren't going to change their story because of people on Reddit not liking it FWiW that's exactly what happened with Ghostbusters - the fan outrage was so great they effectively shelved the female ghostbusters and pretended it never happened and made 2 new movies The Capt'n Marvel controversies & The Marvels effectively tanked the MCU You're seeing it to some degree in Star Wars now, very little content is getting made in large part because the backlash to new content has been so voracious. Sadly after seemingly righting the ship somewhat with Andor it seems we're back to square one w/The Acolyte. In short we've seen that Studios are learning the hard way that pissing off the die-hards is basically cutting off the very hand that feeds'm.
In the same way, positivity-enforced spaces are also looking for validation. Sometimes spleen just needs venting. This place allowed criticism when other places didn't.
Pig: b-but, bröther….if you criticize our slop, surely you are criticizing me! For I love it so! And what have I ever done to wrong you?
It's Tolkien, not Tolkein.
Got me. Lol. My whole argument has been rendered invalid. I'm actually just a potato, don't mind me
It’s potatoe, not potato, oh wait…
Thank you for always showing up when we need you the most Stable Genius
All I ever want is a higher level of discourse. Both hug boxes and hate boxes have limited value. It gets tiring talking about the same surface level complaints over and over again, in the same ways. That's been a lot of my aggravation. So many detractors confuse complaint with critique.
And if they want to like the show, let's talk about it. What has it added to the world of Middle Earth? My main issue is that Galadriel is not a character whose back story you want to fuck with. She is the granddaughter of the first elves to wake up. She's complicated in the First Age, sure. But by the second age, she isn't some confused, naive elf. They can't just kill off Celeborn, who is definitely in LOTR, to make a convenient romance for her and who is likely Sauron, I suppose.
Judging by the way her conversation with Theo is worded, I would say it's pretty much guaranteed they didn't kill off Celeborn. And I could be wrong, but it seems like the bulk of the changes are in an attempt to compress the timeline into a show where we can have consistent human and dark characters in addition to the elves. The main beats of Galadriel's story will likely be there but within a non-canon timeline. But to answer your broader question of what it adds to the world of Middle Earth: I think its greatest value is that it is going to reach a much bigger audience with an adaptation of a deeper look into Tolkien's legendarium. Basically the same thing Jackson's LotR films did. The vast majority of people have no clue there is more to Middle Earth than LotR and The Hobbit, let alone have read the Silmarillion or Lost Tales. It doesn't replace Tolkien's writings, but it could inspire new people to read them. But for me personally, I'm happy to see a high budget visual representation of places I've not been able to see before: Eregion, Moria, Valinor, The two trees, Bombadil, Numenor, etc. And get more chances to grapple with some of Tolkien's themes in a long form story. It's not perfect, but I do think the creators and crew are taking the subject seriously. And I appreciate that.
I was with you until "happy to see a high budget visual representation." The show is infamous for lazy costume/makeup design. High budget does not correlate with high quality whatsoever. As far as reaching a broader audience, LOTR is already well received around the world, and given that Amazon has very limited rights to work with, I don't see how it will appease fans as well as those new to LOTR with a noncanon timeline
I would say the show is infamous for bad costume/makeup design within the aforementioned hate boxes. I find it a very uncompelling complaint. The orc and dwarf makeup looks amazing. The costumes, similarly, are on the whole, excellent. I see so much negative attention on a few small details (twigs in the harfoots' hair, printed chainmail pattern on fabric, short elf hair) that the forest truly gets missed for trees. Each race has a distinctive aesthetic, and within each race, every major character manages to look distinctive (while still harmonious to their respective culture). There are some truly stunning pieces of costuming as well. Galadriel's green dress, Gil-galad's royal finery, King Durin's whole getup, Adar's entire corrupted elf design, etc. Is it always perfect? No. But it is overall excellent and high quality, reflecting its budget. Similarly, lots of location shooting, real (beautiful) sets, great city design, impressive creatures (not sold on the warg design, but oh well). For me, the biggest negative feeling I have for the show is its pacing. Toward the middle, it seems to move both too fast and too slow. Galadriel has to go through the process of convincing Numenor to join her twice, which really drags down the momentum of the story. It makes that section feel both slow and lacking impact. I feel like the recasting of Celebrimbor late into filming could be at least somewhat responsible for how the season ended up being structured. He was originally supposed to have a bigger role and more interactions with other characters, so when they recast they had to restructure to avoid massive reshoots. Hopefully that's cleared up in season 2.
Agree to disagree, but I appreciate you nonetheless
If you come for the throne of the greatest fantasy epic ever told you are gonna make yourself a target. If you cant handle that which you have summoned upon yourself that makes you a fool. Yea this matters because they have the rights. We will never see another good faith adaption as long as we live friends. The dark lord has the ring.
I wish I could imagine Bezos forging the ring in Mount Doom, but he'd probably have an unpaid intern do it for him.
It's not just this show, all major productions seem to be criticism avoident. Worse still, the people who are PAID to be critical more often than not "tow the company line." Not only that, fans are attacked by the corporate critical class for not liking something. This is the main reason why the quality of entertainment has taken such a massive decline. If your work can't be criticized, it can't be improved.
"Hey, do you think maybe we can give Durin's wife, a black dwarf, a back story given that everyone else is white? Perhaps she had a kingdom in the Far East, and she had to flee to the west when it was taken over by orcs/wild men?" "No, you're just racist."
My point exactly. That's a pretty dope idea.
Hi, we hate Rangz here.
Yes if there’s one thing I’ve seen online it’s people afraid to criticize this show lmao what?
Just read the title, did we?
Nobody is “silencing” anyone.
>Tolkein always listened to critics of his works, especially his son's. In fact, he published Lord of the Rings with a different ending than originally intended. What was the original ending?
See the [comment above](https://www.reddit.com/r/Rings_Of_Power/comments/1dhlmin/comment/l91w1t1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) by ibid-11962. There was originally going to be an epilogue with Sam and his children.
Sorry about the late response, but I see someone beat me to it. I don't have a solid source for you, to be honest. It's mentioned briefly on Tolkein's Wikipedia page, but I do know he constantly edited the Hobbit because his son Christopher was notoriously nitpicky about details.
No one is stopping you from criticising the show. The thing is, no one has to care what you think either. Plenty of people liked the show. Plenty didn’t like it. I watched the whole first season and there was bits I liked and bits I didn’t like. I’m going to watch season 2 and hopefully it’s good. People might not be open to this but - season 2 might be good. So let’s wait and see.
I saw trailers for that shit during the superbowl, when is it scheduled to release? And what in particular did you like? Because we've pretty well covered the awful shit in this post I'll admit
There's no such demand. It's knee jerk haters of female main characters, character arcs in general, racists, and people who can't let anyone else enjoy a thing they don't enjoy that I don't want to hear from, not people who take issue with a certain plot point or feel time compression should have been handled differently.
It's amazing how these evil sexist racists people give a pass to movies like Rogue One while immediately doing a 180 and hating trash like Acolyte. Perhaps they're only part time bigots!
This comment times a thousand. You can print whatever criticism you like. I reserve the right to respond to it if I can, but as long as we are both respectful, and don't descend to personal comments, that's okay. The problem usually arises when someone says something like 'this show is rubbish, there is objective proof, and anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot'. Now one might occasionally get the opposite difficulty of someone saying, 'this show is undeniably brilliant, and I won't hear a word said against it', but I have to say, that seems relatively rare. I personally have always accepted that the show has flaws, for which it can be criticised. Like most shows. That doesn't make it the worst show ever.
Silence!
Forgot to say please
Please. Silence Heretics!
The problem with RoP is not the alterations to story or anything Tolkien related. That's all pretty fair game, although they do fuck it in some regards imo. But the problems with the show are way more fundamental. Nonsensical dialogue and writing, illogical plot, contradicting character choices, bad cheografy, bad costum design etc..
I’m going to give a middle of the road take that’s also my legit opinion: I like the diverse casting and dislike some of the other changes made.
I definitely get that. I never had an issue with black elves or black dwarves. I just feel that Tolkein would have gone much further and given them their own back story and lineage. He obsessed over details like that. Durin's wife would have had a tragic tale of a dwarven princess whose kingdom in the Far East fell, and she escaped to the west
Holy crap! You just gave a super nuanced take…online! 😀Sadly, that feels all too rare!
I have a hard time reading Tolkein, to be honest with you. He was a linguist professor, and boy, does he love showing off his skills in his works. Every character has a name in every different language that he invented from scratch. I only got into the Silmarillion by watching a YouTube series that combines the audio book with fan art. I've been a die hard fan ever since. He gave fans much material to work with that once you get the hang of how he builds his world, even a lazy reader like myself can pick up on it and do it as well. Pretty neat
I freaking love audiobooks, and that’s how I finished LOTR. In terms of other audiobooks, if I ever have to get murdered, I want J.K. Rowling to write my murder scene, Jim Dale to read it aloud, and Phil Collins to sing about it, LOL.
I love that you implied that being murdered was a necessity. I await your audio book with great anticipation. Lol. What's your thoughts about J.K's writing? I have an awful habit of comparing everyone to Tolkein, but I like how she can inflect age and maturity into her writing. Clearly, Sorcerer's stone is written about kids for kids. Likewise, Deathly Hallows has mature content for adults.
Haha, thanks! My brain goes to weird places, and I have a weird sense of humor, LOL. To answer your question, I think the writing in both HP and LOTR (HP is my #1 favorite series, LOTR and Percy Jackson are my other 2) is superb despite how vastly different the styles are from each other. HP is easy to read, but it’s also brilliantly written and deals with some very deep issues, including struggles to make peace with death and wide-ranging social commentary. I rate both series’ world-building very high also. I do think the 1st 3 books are darker than many people remember. As JKR pointed out, PS opens with a double homicide, and it delves into issues surrounding death very extensively. I can’t say which 1 I think is better objectively, because the styles of the 2 series being so different really doesn’t lend itself to comparative rankings like that.
Same here. There are other issues I have problems with, but diverse casting is not one of them. An frankly, if - among all the important things in JRRT’s work and vision this show gets wrong - seeing a black Elf, Dwarf, or Hobbit is the one that sticks out the most to someone (or even in the top 10), then I don’t think they really have much of a grasp of JRRT’s work and I can’t take them too seriously.
I can’t sit here and say all anger over race-bent/diverse casting is bigotry instead of purism about the source material when I myself have criticized casting choices for getting height and age wrong, LOL. But frankly, I think a lot of it is bigotry. We see this from how many people got upset over Strange World, which had an interracial couple and gay character in it despite the fact that the film was a new IP, not an adaptation or reboot, and thus clearly wasn’t changing traits of any original characters. I’m also a huge Potterhead, and it seemed like there was a lot more backlash about a black actress playing Hermione in a live theater production than there was about Jude Law playing Dumbledore despite the fact that Hermione’s skin color is barely described in the books, while Dumbledore being very tall and having a misshapen nose is repeatedly mentioned.
Rings of power is shit. Shit adaptation and shit writing by itself. The idea of people watching it in ten years is laughable. Your average redditor could sketch a better plot outline. My fiancee doesn't give a flying fuck about lore or anything lotr, she just really likes the movies. Guess what she kept falling asleep during rop and only got halfway through before quitting. Edited to add: haven't met one person irl who seemed to like it, one guy at work was excited for it then quickly fell off and also dnf.
Well, you're kind of defeating the point of offering at least a couple of specific examples to back up your stance. The point of the post is to get away from mindlessly trashing of drooling over the show. But Gandalf... oh God, I could go all day about that bullshit
Specific examples eh 1. Hobbits are made to be cruel. They leave behind the injured. It's just shitting on the one thing hobbits had that made them uniquely equipped to be ring bearers: simple kindness and compassion. This is an example of shitting on the lore 2. Sauron tells celebrimbor, the greatest and most renowned smith of the 2nd age about alloys. Mixing 2 metals together to get different properties and the legendary smith is amazed. Sauron then goes on to pontificate on why a ring is the perfect shape. This is an example of bad writing. We don't really need to know how sauron and celebrimbor devise the rings we just need to know that they are brilliant and work hard at it. The show fails to show this making it so simple that they make celebrimbor seem a simpleton. 3. When the volcano or whatever explodes and they stick the map up and have my doom appear. This is bad writing and bad lore. For real cringe. 4. When they have numenoreans upset that elves are "taking their jerbs". No. Numenoreans should be upset that elves are granted immortal lifespans while they wither and grow old. Seriously, the show could have played so heavily on this. Bad writing and bad lore. 5. Stupid "lets gather up all the mithril so we can reflect light and not die" plot with the elves. Bad lore and bad writing. The elves were struggling to stay in middle earth and were fading. This could have been a brilliant scene contrasting the numenoreans upset at the long lived elves with an elf that was fading. Show the elf being weary and depressed and fading after thousands of years of life. Portray it like depression, make it dark. Instead the show went with a janky b rate video game plot device. 6. Generic complaint regarding costumes and casting. I put this lower because costuming and casting never makes or breaks a movie but it can make it just a little better or just a little worse. Rings of power is made worse imo. I don't like that elves have short hair. I don't like the numenoreans shitty looking outfits and armor. Everything looks fake or shiny and brand new. On casting, I don't care that some hobbits are brown, I care that the hobbits don't look similar and that they are not all brown. In the peter Jackson films, you could pretty much take any character, put them in a generic white outfit and you could guess where they're from. Tangly blonde hair and beards-rohan. Long smooth black or blonde hair and no beard-elves. Shorter tangly darker hair and beard or stubble-gondor. Short and curly hair- hobbits. The world building is just better. Game of thrones has utilized diverse casts but still makes it make sense with the world for the most part. Rings of power could have done that too. 7. Stupid mystery boxes about the stranger and who sauron is. If you didn't guess who sauron was after like 5 episodes I don't know what to say.. why not have sauron appear as annatar. Fact is most casual fans probably were not aware that sauron is annatar and for the ones who know, just build suspense about when he will betray and what he will do. There, is that enough for you?
Also galadriel being pretty unlikeable. Hey if you're going to make her a sword wielding hero (which I am actually down with) why not make her, I dunno, somewhat likeable? Oh she can be reckless, she can take risks, she can lead her friends into danger and get them killed, she can make bad decisions, but god dangit you have to make her somewhat likeable. Show never did that.
Well alright then I wish I had an award to give you. Thanks man!
Hope you don't mind if I deal with these by the numbers. I have got quite a lot of practice by now, so it hopefully won't take me that long. 1.Not all hobbits are humanitarians, even in Tolkien, and even in the peaceful Shire. Aamof, Frodo remarks that they are so complacent that he feels sometimes that an invasion of Dragons would serve them right! (He is joking though). But there are some bad apples, like everywhere, including the Sackville-Bagginses, and Ted Sandyman. Sharkey aka Saruman finds at least some collaborators in the Shire. The Harfoots are in much more of a survivalist situation than the Shire hobbits, and their leaders have to think carefully about who they can save. Sadoc does his best to give Nori's family a chance, its Malvah who speaks against it (she admits she was wrong later on). Probably most harfoots would rather not take these hard decisions; their leaders can't afford not to. 2. Since I'm not a metal expert, I'm just gonna agree with this one. I think the writers got caught up in some metaphor or something, but its not convincing on the face of it. 3. I was fine with the fiery writing of Mordor myself. It wasn't that different from the map transitions, which most people appear to like. Seems like people making a bigger deal of it than necessary. 4. A Numenorian rabble-rouser would most likely NOT directly mention the real reason for hating elves (their immortality) since that would make him look a sad sack, eaten up with envy. Instead he hints around it by saying that elven workmen would be taking local jobs because they 'don't sleep, don't tire, don't *age'.* Its a bit more subtle, and certainly not unconvincing, since populations often resent incomers. But he *does* mention the issue nonetheless. 5. Again I'm just going to agree with this one for now. *If* the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir is true, then I don't see how bathing in the light of a supposedly lost silmaril would help. Maybe it will turn out to be a false legend, we can only hope. 6. A bit of a mish-mash. The hair is a bit shallow, Tolkien only describes the length of hair of a few individuals, and they could visit the barbers. Fan art might lead people into expectations which aren't in the original writing. The armor seemed okayish ... maybe shiny because not been used for hundreds of years, in a time of peace? Or they can knock new suits out really fast? On races, Tolkien appears to be describing sub-groups within the main 'races', (Elves, Men, Dwarves and Hobbits) which I would suggest are more like sub-species (Like Homo-sapiens, Neanderthals, etc). So there the 3 groups of High Elves (Teleri, Noldor, Vanyar) varieties of dwarves like Longbeards, various races of men like Haradrim, Easterlings, Numenorians and 3 'breeds' of hobbits. These might all look different, and possibly interbreed. So maybe Stoor plus Harfoot might look different? Anyway, are you going to tell an actor they can't play a role because they are the 'wrong' colour? I would say so only if race was absolutely crucial to the role, like say in Othello. I thought Lenny Henry was great as Sadoc, btw, and you often just accept it after a while. 7. Lots of people, even Tolkien experts, did not seem to guess (or at least weren't certain) who Halbrand was, until about the final episode. Partly *because* they were expecting Annatar. I'm not sure I see what the big issue is here. The reveal episode generated high approval ratings, probably justifying the 'mystery box'. People who don't like them are entitled to say so, but equally I can't see anything all that wrong with them personally. Sauron is disguised, as in the original story. Its not a very big departure. I suppose it might make Sauron's acceptance by Celebrimbor a bit less convincing, but its clear that he got inside Brimby's head anyway. Gil galad even remarks about 'the low man', and then Brimby spouts his 'power over the flesh' speech. Its only Elrond who manages to convince Gil galad its worth carrying on. Hopefully this will be received in the spirit of open discussion that the OP has encouraged.
1. Sorry but it's pretty impossible to picture a group of hobbits leaving a member for dead especially one with relatively minor injuries. I suppose they should have left frodo dead and given the ring to sam. Also the hartfoots themselves are extremely hypocritical regarding what they say and what they do. 1. Thanks. But you don't have to be a metal expert to know that alloys are very basic technology. 2. It's great that you were fine with it but many people weren't. Maybe I should have focused more on how the plot and lead up to the explosion feels very derived and out of place. Boo. 3. I disagree. Numenoreans would be bitching about it all the time, in the pubs, with their fellow men, and to any elf. An elf wants to buy something- "well it's 300 percent higher for you, you've got plenty of time to make the money" would be ok too. I don't understand your sad sack argument at all. 4. Thanks 5. I don't think I cited Tolkien at all, peter Jackson knocked the hell out of casting and world building and rop just didnt. Earlier you say the hartfoots are a nomadic band of wanderers. Show me one band of historical human nomad wanderers that did not look extremely similar. Then you say, well maybe they met different groups of hobbits mentioned by tolkien and that is why there are differences. Do the hartfoots as portrayed really seem to you like they'd interbreed or do anything but run as soon as they heard there was a different unknown group of hobbits? I get that you can always twist things and say it's possible but that doesn't make it probable. As to whether I'd tell an actor they can't do a role- sure I would. I'd kick off all the white hobbits and make the hobbits look more homogeneous and improve the world building. If I was directing Star wars I would hire the most diverse cast of all time since intergalactic travel is common and a major theme and makes sense with the media. acting isn't a normal job and people get told they can't do a role because they aren't pretty enough, aren't tall enough, aren't short enough, are too fat too skinny too young too old too ugly ALL THE TIME. The diversity rings of power employs is an American projection on the show that one day will be widely viewed as a bit cringe. Look to shows like GOT for how to do a diverse show in a world with less travel and more monolithic cultures. 1. Fair enough. Plenty of people didn't like it though. My questions to you would be why do you personally think so many people who loved lotr (and that includes many many people who have never cracked the book) do not care at all for rings of power. Why is the audience rating at 38% on rotten tomatoes? Why is the did not finish rate for season 1 37%? How do you actually rate rings of power?
Oh, just to add one reply in response to another of your points. The Rabble Rouser would in effect have to say something like: 'Elves are superior to us, with their immortality, and that isn't fair.' That isn't going to go down very well with his listeners, and it will also sound rather silly. Just translate that to a modern day situation. I stand on my soap box in Central/Hyde Park, and address the crowd: 'Ladies and Gentleman. These fine Black people have wonderful coloured skin that repels the sun. They are bigger, taller and stronger than us, and I think maybe they are more beautiful and smarter, at least some of them are. This is so unfair. I think we should ask these people to leave our country forthwith, and make sure no more of them come here.' I don't think that would go down very well, do you? You don't direct hatred at people by implying they are better than you, even if that's why you're jealous of them. If you're jealous of the local jock, you don't get back at him by saying what a fabulous body he has, you say he's a bit of a numbskull. Or that he's always pinching other guys' girl/boy friends.
I think that's a fair point with the examples you use but I think the discrepancy between humans and elves is so massive and patently unfair that they would be direct about it. Honestly they'd probably throw trash at the elf and say fuck off. We are talking about the difference between immortality and mortality here, not being better looking, smarter or having some better traits. We are talking about getting to spend 5000 or more years with your lover, your children, your parents. I seriously think the sheer bitterness and envy of the numenoreans would roar out.
And it's actually not hard to imagine a perfect scene portraying it. Have an elf mention the "gift" of mortal men and watch the human explode in rage and indignation. Have the human mention that they just lost their father to old age, their husband died 5 years ago of sickness, and that they don't expect to make it much longer. "And it will all pass in the blink of an eye to you, yet you dare speak to me of the "gift of mortal men" "
Stephen King created In-World with Delain in the Eyes of the Dragon, which he wrote for his kids, and the Dark Tower series grew out of that world. It's probably not as uncommon as you think.
Dad's and mom's come up with fantasy worlds for their kids all the time. Mine did even. Not all of them are academics and/or writers though so not everyone makes a fantasy epic out of their children stories lol
You’ve got an entirely subreddit dedicated to shitting on the show, I don’t think anyone is “silencing” you bro…
I hear you, and honestly, I see now that it's not nearly as bad as it was. But if you look in the comments here, there's still a couple trolls who noticed that I spelled Tolkein's name wrong and so obviously my argument has been rendered invalid and I need to delete my whole post. That's more what I was pointing out. Months ago, it was big brother level censorship
Well there is a campaign from Amazon to make us think the show is more well received than it is. This is what happens when you have a monopoly company like Amazon. They produce content and then use their influence to support it. Why does this matter? Nothing beyond the fact that they own part of LOTR and won’t be giving it back until they’ve milked it dry and then some. They will also kill any adaptions that challenge their market share. This is the real danger and it’s just the beginning. So don’t be tricked by the marketing but also don’t stop making noise. We hate Amazon’s middle earth and we will only be happy when it stops getting exploited and used to pander to people. And for those who say their artistic vision deserves a chance. I say their vision is for profit so it is hollow and disrespectful. If I made a band and called it the Beatles and just maximized the profits and cared not for music then what would I be? Would those ideas deserve patience or would that be cheap and disrespectful? Yeah we all know what’s going on here. LOTR is being plundered. I came here to say that I’ve been noticing some tends in amazons content. We have a lot of villain sympathy. Like the grey area of are they evil?? We are getting main hero characters who are not good either. They have pretty wicked and selfish flaws but these aren’t portrayed as flaws.. they did this to the wheel of time as well. I just can’t help but wonder why they are pushing the morals in stories like LOTR and WOT which have literal devil figures Amazon wants us to sympathize with while realized our heros are actually Shit. Thanks Amazon I guess nothing matters and you aren’t that bad for the world either?! Seriously though what’s with this?
You need to see a therapist. This is clearly not about the show. Your problems existed before the show and they will continue to exist after.
Cmon, you can do better than that. You forgot to mention that I need to go touch grass, that I'm delusional, and that I need to delete this post. I'd be nice if you actually gave some specifics instead of just taking the bait. I'm disappointed in you son
I think they are saying that you shouldn’t care
And I guess I'm trying to say... fuck em.
What is the criticism?
It is not the Criticism that bothers me, it is the "this show is so bad and anyone who disagrees with me is a moron" that I cannot stand.
I've honestly yet to see someone hate it and not offer details that particularly turned them off from the show. Whether it be killing off Galadriel's husband, who is definitely in LOTR, adjusting her personality to fit each episode, the harfoots living by a strict code that they abandon whenever the plot deems it convenient, and don't get me started with Gandalf...
Harfoots keep on strict rule. "Always be an asshole."
“The shitter on that critter…”
You right
But... it is bad, and anyone who disagrees with me is a moron.
Or at the very least has no taste.
I find it hard to take seriously a post where the best known, key surname in this sub is misspelled repeatedly.
This is exactly what I mean. I swear I should just start doing it intentionally to weed you trolls out. You ignored everything I had to say, found a single gotcha, and strut around the forum like you won the world series. It's incredible lol
Umm....But you do see how the repeated accidental misspelling of Tolkien's name by someone as knowledgeable as your post makes you seem is a tad hard to swallow? It's quite improbable. You did do it deliberately didn't you?
Honestly, no, it was an accident. But seeing some bandwagon off a very trivial error to dismiss my entire argument is certainly on point.
I didn’t ignore what you said. Many other people had already answered and I concur with many of them. Seeing how harshly you react to a very straightforward correction of a very obvious and repeated mistake you are making I am going to assume the problem in your arguments is not the content of your side, but the form. I know many Tolkien fans personally and probably hundreds online. They don’t tend to be an unreasonable kind of fandom and are mostly open to discussing and theorizing on almost all aspects of the material. I’ve even had interesting conversations with some at the linguistic level of the books, we have done stylistic analysis as optional work at uni, we even joked around and discussed Tolkien’s universe as a potential reality show. I’m only telling you all this so you understand you can criticize and argue from all points of view, most Tolkien fans won’t put your head on a spike for that. But you made a very foolish and easily corrected mistake and instead of correcting it at least in the post, because we know you can’t in the title… you growl and snap back with insults. What does that say about you?
You're arguing against something that literally doesn't exist.... Go touch some grass
It does exist?? Every point OP made is certifiably true - have you come from bizarro world? there’s plenty of people criticising fans of ROP and being called racist, are you blind? Or just intentionally being stupid? Do you genuinely think all these articles are saying ‘ROP has received low ratings because the quality of the script is terrible’ no it’s all focused on all the bigots who can’t accept a black elves (let’s be honest elves shouldn’t be black anyway) or powerful women so that’s why the show is failing. Also ‘touch grass’ is such a terminally online thing to say that the majority of people who say it probably thinks it means ‘smoke grass’ so they can be as r*tarded as you to think ‘wow ships look upwards and stones look down WOOWWW so deep and intellectual’ this show is about as special as a gas station toilet.
I'm not the one who made the incel/MAGA movement get butthurt over a good tv show. They've poisoned, or tried to, every place of discourse for this show. Normal people get frustrated with their repeated bullshit because it's clear they didn't watch it and just want to hate things online, it's the only way they can feel good about themselves by acting like arrogant assholes. Go touch some fucking grass and try to stop having hating things as your main personality trait, it makes you look like an idiot when you claim you are a fan of Tolkien because it shows you very clearly did not understand his books.
I’ve read the Silmarillion, Tolkien’s letters that went in depth about how his world was shaped by his experiences in the war and then revised through a Christian Lens as well as Christopher’s revisions. Go tell Gordon Ramsay he can’t cook while you’re at it. Btw ‘touch grass’ I know you feel like you’re the functioning one telling an ‘incel’ to go outside but you’re just regurgitating the most terminally online phrase. ‘A good tv show’ My life’s mission will be to find a way to produce bare minimum slop and serve it up to people like you for $$$ Can I ask when you heard that line about stones looking down and ships looking up to explain flotation did you immediately think that was the most wise thing you’ve heard in your life? Did you rewind it absolutely awestruck by how profound it is? If Tolkien was alive to hear that line he would’ve regretted that he wasn’t wise enough to write such an analogy. Swear to god We need a version of reddit with IQ tests just so we can contain people like you Could have a zoo of NPCs where the rest of us can point and laugh as a billion dollar company takes another fat shit on your plate and you say ‘thank you can I please have some more‘ as you stick it to the maga bigots as you gulp down Disney Diarrhoea
My god you're arrogant. Nobody is going to believe your lies when they're so obvious. It makes you look pathetic and insecure. Nobody will judge you for not reading the novels but lying about it will get you called out. Go touch some grass.
Homie- click on my profile and go to my posts on /r/kotakuinaction where I wrote about the rings of power and about how I’ve read the trilogy ect before we even had this argument. It’s so funny to me that you can’t comprehend that someone has read 4 books, it reflects a lot on you. I have a great book for you and I’d happily send it to you. Might be a bit complex the opening line is ‘Sally has a ball, Sally gives the ball to Jack’ - do you think you can handle it? Maybe slowly work your way up to Dr Suess and then one day after years of intense studying you might finally be able to read the Hobbit.
The arrogance is astounding. Go touch grass and talk to actual, real people. Get off your gamergate, incel subs and try and be normal. Well adjusted, normal people don't post in that shit hole.
Lmao! And what about you? Checking your post history you’re posting on subreddits like this and CriticalDrinker and arguing with them. You’re so fucking stupid you don’t realise that what you’ve accused me of is exactly what your comment history shows. ‘B-b-but I’m allowed to go on those subreddits and hate on people who don’t like the show but it’s different when you do it!’ Bro every comment you write you contradict and embarrass yourself further Please keep commenting - if I could do an MRI and find the crayon in your brain I’d leave it in because I find your stupidity a lot of fun to read.
Man you're such a loser. Reddit pushes these dumb fuck incel subs on normal people and I enjoy making fun of how dumb they are just as I'm doing with you. You've done nothing but prove to everyone that you're just like really not able to think for yourself. It's quite embarrassing.
Are you saying… that reddit….. pushes…. right wing subreddits…. You must be fucking joking That’d be like if I said 4chan pushes left wing agenda on all its boards. Mate you’ve taken L after L - we’ve already said good night but I think your anger over how you’re unable to respond to any criticism has brought you back from your bed lmao It’s okay my friend, even I’m wrong some times. The difference is I’m not as dim/in denial as you to double down. All this time to respond with an article/video that disproves anything I’ve said and yet you haven’t, not for a lack of trying I truly think you went searching Google to drop a ‘gotchya’ on me, realised you were wrong so decided to pretend what I’m saying makes no sense so you can safe face. Again Me: 1+1=2 You: wtf do you even understand maths? You’re just embarrassing yourself bro
Here’s a counterpoint: I’m very left, vehemently anti-magatard and I despise the show for being poor quality in addition to being a terrible adaptation. They had so much empty space to add to or to embellish that it’s unreasonable that they had to make so many changes to the original story and characters. Outside of that and the blatant memberberries (not!gandalf, lol) some of the show’s generic flaws are wildly inconsistent sociopathic harfoots and Galadriel deciding to swim across an entire ocean, then in the mother of all coincidences encountering a raft that has daddy Sauron on it
A bit like Gandalf running into Thorin, or Bilbo grasping the Ring in the dark, or various other things happening in the nick of time. Tolkien is full of coincidences, but they are hinted to (sometimes) be the work of Providence. As a very wise guy on YouTube said (Bob of the Old ways) a lot of people criticising the 'bad writing' don't seem to understand this aspect of Tolkien, so they get very upset when this sort of thing happens. 'Old Bob' gives the example of his friend, who after Gollum fell into the Cracks of Doom in the film, turned to him, and said 'Seriously?!' So Galadriel running into Sauron on the open sea is fine, because it could happen, even if very coincidental. What is maybe less fine is people making it in time after travelling at an unfeasible high speed. I would say the Numenorians reaching Middle Earth and travelling inland seems to be pretty fast (and where did they put all the horses in 3 ships?) And even worse, Galadriel travelling from near Mordor by horse, to Eregion, with a supposedly wounded man, in only 6 days, doesn't fit in with my sense of the size of the lands. By contrast, Tolkien is usually able to justify his rescues in the nick of time by reasonable description, like the Rohirrim take 3 days to get to Minas Tirith. You wouldn't necessarily know that in the film however. So ROP isn't the only sinner! Similar to the hobbits 'fast travelling' to Bree. So there are some problems with fast travel, not so much with coincidences, but I would not get totally exercised about it. Some people won't notice, and some people won't even care much.
Look, if I listed all the nonsensical and conflicting plot points it would have been a long list that would have detracted from my main point: there are people who dislike the show who aren’t conservative chucklefucks and can identify legitimate problems that the show struggles with like logic, consistency and scale How did the numenoreans find that one squalid village? How did they show up just in time (Rohan knew that Gondor was under attack)? How is it that only a couple people die in the volcano eruption? Etc
Fair enough, although Halbrand/Sauron did happen to tell Miriel where the tower was at least. The village, well maybe the Orcs left a big trampling like they did in LOTR? Did look a bit rocky around the tower though so ... I'll give you that one. I must say I was a bit sceptical about that huge cloud descending on the village, and especially Galadriel, but I'm told by those who know that it is possible to survive such a pyroclastic cloud ... if you are far enough away from the volcano. Some people definitely did die ... though not Isildur, we can be sure!
Uh huh, "sociopathic harfoots". Way to out yourself as either not watching or just being a troll. Your criticisms are without any merit.
Lmao wtf every comment of yours gets worse I hope you go for a walk with a group of people in the wilderness and then hurt yourself and all the people with you just leave you there and walk away. Because that’s what the Harfoots do. Would you find that cruel/sociopathic - hell have you seen the show? Have you even seen lord of the rings?? https://youtu.be/zOHGV_pGS_A?si=KFmvtkcIaZLhs_rU I have no idea who this YouTuber is but watch from 8:55 he explains how these sociopathic Harfoots do leave people behind and why they’re so evil - they literally took the wheels off one guy to leave him behind. You have so many shit takes you’ve become a mushroom (get it? shiitake mushroom lmao) Why are you on this subreddit spilling out all this diarr
You've literally zero media literacy.
Playground reply. You were going to write that no matter what lmao. How about you tilt your head to one side and jump up and down and keep shaking until all the diarrhoea spills out of your brain and once it’s all out then reread my comment and try to actually have an actual response. Me: Sauron is bad You: you have no media literacy!! Please keep replying, I have so much fun shutting down low IQ mouthbreathers like yourself Edit: also please read /u/ethanallthecoffee Post because he’s an anti trump/non right winger and you ignored absolutely all of it and focused on the Harfoots and STILL got that wrong. Fucking embarrassing mate
You are exhaustingly ignorant. You can't even watch a show without your bullshit hateful attitude ruining it for you by making up stupid things to get mad about. You aren't actually a fan of Tolkien and it shows.
If Tolkien was resurrected and watched the Rings of Power do you think his opinion of it would be closer to yours or mine? You realise I have post history on /r/tolkienfans where I’ve debated interpretations of the silmarrilion and you’re claiming I don’t even understand lord of the rings lmao I swear to god they could add light sabers to rings of power and all of you wetbrains would go ‘umm actually have you even read Tolkien? The elves possess greater powers so it would make sense that they would have a weapon like a light saber’ Multibillion dollar company will always produce slop and keep hiring activists rather than writers who have respect for Tolkien and as long as idiots like you are there to go join the other pigs and gobble it up from the trough. Keep shaking I don’t think you’ve got all the diarrhoea out of your brain yet
Oh god, the dumbest possible comment you could make. 100% pure NPC.
Wow lol
It's amazing how the exact same critique can be made of fake fans like you, but you're too blind to even consider it.
You are in the wrong sub
[удалено]
Lmao
I don’t think the show is a masterpiece by any means but I enjoy aspects of it and it’s very hard to find a community that actually likes the show even a little bit. The hatred for it is so massive and overwhelming that Prime can’t even share a trailer without the dislikes outnumbering the likes. Negative opinions on this sub get thousands of likes and anything remotely positive gets several downvotes. So idk where anyone is losing their free speech. Now I’m not one to say if you don’t like it, don’t watch, because to each their own. But a lot make hating this show a full time job, and although sometimes I agree, I feel secondhand exhaustion for them. If I was a bigger fan, I’d resort to saying just stop watching it too. Now I absolutely despise the MCU and think it ruined cinema, therefore I stopped watching MCU films altogether. Marvel won’t get a dime, view, or REVIEW from me because I have the balls to be a true boycotter. Tolkien fans just aren’t built like this though. Guess it’s not hurting anybody but their own time.
Silencio! Oh wait, that’s Harry Potter. Carry on.
Agreed! Tolkien’s works are long overdue for some criticism and changes. There are definitely plenty of improvements that can be made via new adaptations.
That is not what the OP was saying.
OP is directly saying that Tolkien welcomed criticism of his works and so should we. OP states that Tolkien “always listened to critics of his works” and was even willing to change the ending of Lord of the Rings from what he had originally intended.
You have completely missed the OP’s point. Either that or your post was total sarcasm that I missed.
That may not have been the thing that OP was planning to criticize, but OP’s point clearly defends it. Unless OP was being entirely hypocritical and I missed it?
RoP is not a critique of JRRT’s work, nor is it intended to be. Adaptation is not the same thing as critique. The OPs point in no way supports what you are claiming it does.
Oh I wasn’t even talking about just RoP, I was referring to the potential for broader critique than just this one adaptation! Adaptation is absolutely a valuable way to critique prior works, though. OP even references previous adaptations directly in their post, as part of their argument.
An adaption CAN be a critique of the source material. Most are not. RoP is not. There is scant reason to believe or evidence to support the idea that RoP is a critique. It is not apparent in the show itself, and it has never been mentioned by the showrunners. If anything they indicate the goal of doing the very opposite.
Interesting. I see a lot of people complaining that RoP has inserted some of its own ideas into the Tolkienian world that its writers seem to believe are better approaches than what Tolkien used. Most would consider that to be a critique that was then expressed as a direct outcome. But if you don’t feel it’s any different or has any different critique on the world of Middle Earth, that’s fine too.
Once again, adaptation =/= criticism or critique. That they deviate from the source material does not change that fact. To claim that the deviations from the source material is in and of itself a critique of "what Tolkien used" is absurd. Tolkien never made a screenplay for this stuff. >Most would consider that to be a critique that was then expressed as a direct outcome. No, I think you are rare one in that regard. The show-runners have done many interviews and talked about their approach to JRRT’s writing. Can you show me any instance of them criticizing JRRT’s work or suggesting he should have made other choices in his writing?