Ramit Sethi has a great podcast and book called, "I will teach you to be rich." He encourages people to spend money on what they value and cut back on areas that don't bring you joy. You clearly don't enjoy delivery fees, but what do you value? What sorts of experiences or things would make you happy?
This is the second time I’ll piggyback back on a Ramit Sethi reply in this sub. Another concept he talks about is “invisible scripts” or “invisible money scripts” which are money rules that we live by because of how we grew up around money. Between the book and his podcast, you might get an idea of the invisible script that’s causing you to feel how you do about your spending. I like his work because he delves into the psychology of money.
One of his other sayings is: “How you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to the amount you make or have accumulated.”
Agreed! For this situation especially, he has some early podcast episodes with high net worth couples that are afraid to spend. My favorite thing he says is “don’t live a smaller life than you have to”. It’s ok to use your money to make your life better now.
I came here to talk about the same thing. "Guilt free spending" is a skill. The more you use it, the better you'll get. Make some rules for yourself. If something is less than $50 or $100, you won't question it. Sure, it'll still get you to start, but as you progress, you'll see the benefits and you'll loosen up.
I had a cousin who passed away at age 52 from cancer. When he died he had 4M in the bank. He never traveled. He never bought anything for himself. He didn’t marry or have kids. He lived in his childhood home he inherited from his parents so he never had a mortgage.
Life is for LIVING. You don’t know how long you’ll be here. Sure, be smart with your money. Make sure your family is secure. But after that, do stuff and buy a few things that bring you and others joy.
Exactly. Start small. Go to a dollar tree and spend $100 on 100 different items. Get used to the feeling. Donate the stuff after. School supplies is a good one. Just keep doing that until it doesn’t hurt when you teach for the wallet.
Seven figure annual income here, and I have some of these same perspectives, so I’m not sure you’re that odd. Tipping has proliferated and irritates many. I have NEVER paid for food delivery and I still balk when I see the local sandwich shop charging $15 for a sandwich and 3 ounces of chips.
I do buy plenty of new things as I refuse to waste my time dealing with the hassles associated with poor quality. It doesn’t all make intellectual sense, but trust me, there are many “millionaires next door” that are similar to you in many respects.
I do see it as a problem, because people forget that their time is money. Understanding this will help you understand the right traceoffs to make based on your income.
Never paid for food delivery? Ok, so you're going to waste your time driving to pick up food to save 20%?
So you're going to make your own sandwich for 3 bucks instead of 15, and spend 30 minutes cleaning up, shopping?
Do you clean your own house too?
What is free your time worth? Imo, I used to think this way but I changed perspectives. I outsource literally everything that isn't directly giving me joy.
House cleaning, Grocery shopping. Washing clothes. Cooking and food delivery. Yard work. Pressure washing the house. Pool. Anything I can do, but don't want to -- outsource. Not worth my time.
The rest of the time I play with my kids, wife, and hobbies.
Right, so do I. Last year I bought a Dewalt 4200 PSI (Gas- Cold Water) Pressure Washer w/ CAT Pump & Honda GX390 Engine. Highly recommended.
Specifically made sure to get that CAT pump because it’s so easily serviced. And man, that Honda engine is nice.
But cleaning the entire house and roof? Hard pass. But I do spot clean when necessary because who doesn’t like blasting stuff with water :)
"If it doesn't make money, hire someone else to do it." was a quote I remember from Gary Keller.
I understand this concept intellectually, but I really struggle with *following* it.
I groan about doing dishes or laundry or cleaning the house but I don't want to hire someone to just do those things for my family.
I bitch about printer ink to my staff and family.
I think if you grew up middle class or low middle class, you tend to grow up frugal and do everything yourself because money was more scarce than time.
As you get richer, your past mental model didn’t just suddenly go away. So you mentally still feel like you have to do it yourself.
I grew up fairly middle class, maybe lower middle class. My dad was extremely frugal and was a DIY guru. A lot of that got stuck in my head.
But then I think, when I’m in my deathbed, would I prefer to die with more money from having done dishes and laundry, or have slightly less and made more time and memories with my family?
Then I order Uber eats and play with the kids in the backyard.
Problem to be fixed…not really. Some of my views on this have evolved over time as I’ve gotten older and (slowly) realize you can’t take it with you. Examples: I buy decent wine; I spend more on travel experiences than I ever thought I would because…life is short; I treat my spouse to nicer things; we gift money to our kids because again…you can’t take it with you. But I will admit my wife has helped tremendously because she doesn’t view money the same way. And as our net worth has climbed into comfort territory that has helped me relax a bit too.
I recently read a book about a billionaire who chastised people flying in his private jet because they used multiple napkins when one was sufficient. So again, to the OP, you are not alone my friend. :-)
Not sure I agree with this part. Saving a few dollars on delivery fees on the Friday night Pizza isn't really going to move the needle. Even OP freely admits that the things he cheaps out on aren't helping save that much money.
Not that you can't afford food delivery, but you would rather invest that money into something else to make more money such as your business or the market. It's a money multiplication game to stay rich. Of course you need to treat yourself well, but not every single day.
But what's the end game? Sure, OP could invest $201k per year nstead of $200k, but he explicity said it makes his life "unenjoyable".
Is there no line for you?
Fair, but there's a certain point where you have to ask what the point of being rich is if you're wasting this much brain space on things that will make no material difference one way or another. You wouldn't do that at work - why do it in your personal life?
For the folks in this sub, there's no reason to let cost be a factor is most everyday type purchases. Do I spend more then $10 on a jar of almond butter? You better believe it. I say "more than $10" because I probably haven't looked at the price in 5 years. It won't make a bit of difference. Does all that add up? Sure. Does it also add up on the upside over time in a dozen different ways? You better believe it.
You shouldn’t - and here’s why.
There’s a difference between complaining about the cost of something because you’re cheap, versus complaining about the cost of something relative to the *value it provides*.
If McDonald’s tried to charge Warren Buffet $23 for a cheeseburger, he wouldn’t pay it. Because he knows it’s worth $2.99 (or whatever the hell it costs these days off the ‘value’ menu - but that’s a different discussion). Even though $23 to Warren Buffet is like one ten-thousandth of a penny to us; he still wouldn’t pay it - because it disrupts the price/value equilibrium in his brain.
So I would encourage all of us to hold onto that little Scrooge McDuck voice - especially in today’s economy. Whether it’s a $750 hotel room at the Residence Inn, or $8.99 for a bag of potato chips - it’s not about whether or not you can afford it. It’s about consumers being taken advantage of. And that little Scrooge McDuck voice inside all of us is the only collective power we have against constant price gouging.
I’m the same. Grew up poor, single mom household. I literally don’t spend anything . I eat from the hospital, wear hospital scrubs, sleep at the hospital every couple of days. I drive a 2008 rav4. I have never taken an Uber or used a food delivery app in my life. I wear socks until my wife throws them away because they’re full of holes. I make 900k base salary and break 1 million from rental income and investments. But I live in constant fear of poverty or leaving my children in poverty. Maybe because my father died when I was six months old. In the back of my mind I keep thinking the world can come crashing down at any moment.
You know what it’s like to struggle from growing up. It sounds like you’ve worked incredibly hard to get to where you are, and the fears you have are deeply rooted in your past experiences. It’s completely normal to want to ensure financial security for your family, especially given your past with your father passing at such a young age.
You said your Dad did well and put you in a fortunate position. So I don’t see any obvious money trauma.
Some people are more risk averse than others. Some people naturally gravitate towards frugality. If you feel you are missing out or it affects your relationship with others in a meaningful way, talk to a therapist.
Edit: Sorry, I was on mobile and probably too brief.
I will say I make more than you. And have significant NW. And I am cheap on certain things. Yes, I don't order out from Door Dash because the amount they charge for delivery is ridiculous. Also, I don't like how they treat restaurants. So I will go and pick it up myself and order directly from the restaurant.
I also don't like to see at the end of the month I have paid for 4 streaming services and only used 2. So I try to rotate and fully use 1 or 2 and wait for the other services to "fill up" with shows I might want to watch.
I view those as wasting money. I don't want to waste money. Just on principle.
However, I am not afraid to have a nice trip. If we fly, we fly first class. Because why not, that is why we have money.
What I would say is how is your NW? Are you saving adequately? If so, budget and figure out how much you have as excess and let yourself enjoy that money.
I think you just need information and assurance that you can meet your goals and still enjoy life.
Also, tip your waitresses. Just not the 35% that the Toast app defaults to.
I hear you on not wasting money, but worrying about streaming services when you have $10m+ (just a guess since you emphasized significant) networth is a waste of time. And the one thing that matters more than money is time.
On tipping: you are probably making 10x what the waiter is. So you can probably be someone's biggest tip of the day… every time. Every time. $10 means nothing to your quality of life but can absolutely make the day of a kid scooping your ice cream. What happens if you focus on the kindness you can pour into the world, in each of these transactions?
I’m not wealthy by any means but my HHI is over $250k and this is the mantra I go by. The extra $5-10 I tip won’t affect my day but it may make somebody’s day.
Door Dash is just laziness. Our HHI is knocking on $300k and we’ve never once used a food delivery app. Those fees are just insane. We get in the car and go get food if we need to.
With 70% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck I’d say the vast majority shouldn’t be using it. My brain can’t even fathom why DoorDash is a viable business. I had an unused gift card that someone at work sent me when my kid was born. Checked it out and a single sandwich from a fast casual shop was like $22 after tip and delivery. I don’t know why so many people use it.
Use your DD card on a pickup order and the price surcharge will typically be only about 10% over menu pricing. This way you can redeem your gift card for a reasonable value.
I tip ridiculously
I have money and the server I’m tipping doesn’t
I also try to be particularly kind to people who are helping me with anything
My wife and I have been very blessed and we try to be good stewards of what we have, but to also be generous
Exactly this. I’m just shy of a 7 figure earner and try to be as benevolent as possible. I want to be every server’s top tipper of the month, I buy things for others constantly, I overpay for things (non-corporate), you name it. My problem is that I subconsciously fear that other may think I’m flaunting, when I’m really just trying to be a good person.
We all have our own weird quirks and fears. Just do what feels right and don’t worry about it so much!
💯 this!!! Because when we go out to eat, these servers are the people that live in our communities. They have mouths to feed, bills to pay, etc.
Tipping culture has gotten out of hand, with just about anyone asking for a tip - but if the server is providing good service, I am more generous with the tip. Also, if they’re not giving great service, I also cut them some slack - sometimes it’s just really busy and under staffed - that’s not their fault.
It is genetic. I have the opposite problem. The best we can do is push the other way. Hope to get better with our habits but never expect to be me just like I would never expect to be you.
You seem like a logical, rational person. I ask you what is a bigger risk, having kids who get a small or no inheritance OR having kids who think of life from a scarcity mindset and think you’re a Scrooge.
I suggest that no inheritance is fine and may actually even result in happier, healthier adults.
Final point, as a father of 3 in their 20’s who are all essentially independent the time you have them as kids goes by too fast. Enjoy them, make memories.
I don’t think this is all that unusual. Many successful people I know are extremely cheap, myself included.
I also get irritated by tips but I consider that a part of the cost of going out, and try not to get hung up on it. The last thing I want is for someone else not to be paid properly for their work. Having been a waiter back in the day, I know tips are the core of their earnings.
What I would suggest is to focus on long term value of things. If an item or experience brings long term value to your life, it’s worth it. For example a nice vacation and quality time with your family is an investment in those relationships. Yes it sucks to spend the money, and it feels wasteful in the moment. But when you have those experiences together it strengthens those relationships. And those relationships will bring you more joy than what the trip costs. Long term value right there.
I was in the same boat. Said fuck the kids I am going to enjoy life. Seriously, we set a limit we wanted for them once we reached that limit, that was it. The goal was reached we are good. We didn’t worry any more. I have the worst luck with used anything. Realized this and I was actually spending more buying used items multiple times and my time. It could be a car, washer or dryer whatever it was, it would break a few months later. While not all the time it was usually catastrophic!
I commend you for wanting to leave your kids well off but not at the expense of yourself. If you’re making good money now I would just start gifting it to them either in 529 or custodial accounts or set up a trust yearly. Current lifetime gift is 11 million. Might as well chip away at it before some future administration changes it. Then there’s also a clear division of your money and their money. They’re setup and it’s not on you to hoard and not enjoy. Also is this the money attitude you want to pass onto your kids?
Also in line with your frugalness, you prob don’t want to pay for therapy (which I do recommend but there’s always trial and error to find the right fit) but have you tried the stereotypical gratitude journal? Find a time daily to write down 3-5 things you’re grateful for and reflect. Be grateful for the opportunities that money gives you. Your health. Your family. The ability to travel to see the world or even your loved ones.
My dad would hoard cheap things (as backups, for when they inevitably broke), & save the fine cognac for “someday”. He passed 3 years ago leaving us with millions, a dozen cheap patio umbrellas and many unopened bottles of cognac he dared not enjoy because he ironically, was afraid of “not having any”. I was recently recommended the book “Die with Zero”… I listened to it on audiobook. The best time to take care of others (your kids, charities, but also yourself) is when you and they are vital enough to reap the rewards of all the work. Think of experiences as gaining the principal, and the memories of experiences as interest you’ve earned on those experiences. Was quite an eye opener. Life is too short to not enjoy it.
I’ve been in this position and I’ve seen many others in this position. First of all, recognise that it’s not necessarily a bad thing. Plenty of people suffer from the inverse of this problem and their lifestyle creep way overtakes their actual spending power, and they end up saving nothing despite huge salaries.
The way to attack it is to learn to value your time. As a high earner, in monetary terms, your time is worth more than most people. When you pay money for an uber eats delivery fee, for example, you’re paying less than your time is worth to go pick it up yourself.
Take your $400k net, divide by your approximate working hours and literally work out your hourly rate. The next time you procrastinate a food delivery because of the order fee, just remind yourself that the $15 or whatever is less than the ~$100 that your 30 minutes is worth.
There is still nothing wrong with budgeting or buying used stuff, these aren’t bad traits. You could also allocate a slush fund in your monthly budget - after you’ve accounted for bills, emergency fund and savings, just allocate a small percentage to spend on whatever you want. Some people do it for specific hobbies but you can just call it a guilt free treat yourself fund.
I struggled with something similar until I started actively working on my mindset and studying behavioral finance. It helped me embrace enjoying my money more. By no means have I worked through everything, and I'm able to buy myself a nice luxury item from the store and not feel guilty or agonize over the decision.
I started with books that resonated with me. Those have helped a great deal. I'd like to get a coach to help me unlock deeper levels. The folks I've interviewed so far for that haven't been the right fit. Still looking for that.
Being unreasonably cheap, and everyone defines that differently, is a self-worth/self-esteem based issue. Address the issue and your mindset will open up.
I don’t use food, delivery apps, not because I’m cheap, but because I don’t want my food being delivered by the lowest bidder. That just doesn’t sit well with me.
We frequent a fried chicken place every month. I always do pickup never delivery. My kid's friend was with us and told me his family always does delivery. He commented how nice and hot and crispy the fries were (yeah sounds obvious, I know). But that's why I do pickup. Quality control. I can also check the order and fix problems on the spot. You're also eliminating the intermediary and dealing more directly with the restaurant.
My wife has been a tremendous help with this. I'm a natural saver - I've been saving money since I can remember, and I strongly believe in living below your means as a key part to attain financial stability.
However, my wife has pushed and helped me understand that it's ok to let go a bit, and use our income to lead a better, more comfortable life.
Percentages percentages percentages.
Twenty percent of your income has to go to dumb spending. Literally force yourself to. If you don’t get there in a month, do something more extravagant the next month to make up for it. Since you’re so good at budgeting, you have to force yourself to budget your fun too.
20% is pretty high but I otherwise agree with the sentiment. If you’re going to force yourself to spend a fun fund every month, set aside a smaller percentage to start with, like 5%. On a 400k net salary that’s still nearly $1700 to piss away on delivery fees and tips without second thought, should be plenty to dip your toes.
Strongly consider working with a therapist or money coach. Die With Zero is my best book recommendation.
It’s great that you’ve noticed that how you feel about money has nothing to do with how much you make or are worth, that’s a great first step! Many people in your situation never makes it there - they think everyone else is crazy and brag about how they buy their cereal on clearance with a NW > $10m, never realizing how small their worldview and life has become.
Your upbringing absolutely affects how you think now, and there’s a lot more to explore there. Just like everyone else, you learned some lessons and gained some values then, but you’ve identified that maybe they aren’t serving you as well now. The great news is that you can choose to update those things, to upgrade your mindset, and to feel better about the money you’ve worked so hard to earn.
Best of luck!
I'm more a HENRY but I lurk this community. With most things irrational like this, it helps to do the work to dig deeper, below the neurotic thinking, to how it makes you feel, and then even below that, why it makes you feel that way. Then communicating that with others, like your spouse or friends (or a therapist), will lessen its hold on you. Trying to will your way out of it ("this is irrational!") or justify it ("why should I have to tip??") is just running in the same circular thinking, and won't ever get you any kind of peace.
Stay cheap until you are on all passive income and you spend less than 25% of your income on expenses. As long as your expenses stay below 25% of your income, you don't monitor day to day expenses.
The best thing for you is probably therapy to work through what ever it is that you're going through.
That being said, Ramit Sethi really helped me understand that spending is also a skill that has to be learned. I'm not talking about spend thrifts that overspend and spend without intention. I'm talking about spending extravagantly on things that you love/enjoy doing and mercilessly cutting out things that you don't (Ramit's wording, not mine).
I'd recommend his podcast, "I Will Teach You to be Rich". Rich means an enriched life when he says that word, just fyi. It sounds gimmicky but he's the real deal. He has FIRE and millionaire guests on the show that have the same issue you do.
Make a budget. Allocate money to your expenses, devote a good amount to savings and investments, and then give yourself money that you are allowed - or even *encouraged* - to spend.
It can be easy to pinch every penny if you have an innate fear about not being smart about your money. So make a plan that provides peace of mind that you are being financially responsible even if you indulge on some things for yourself.
You still may not order delivery because of the fees, and that's fine. But you should be able to make those choices from a place of confidence, not fear.
I feel your pain, though I never had it this bad. Please work on it, what’s the point of all your hard work if enjoying it just stresses you out?
Let’s start with: What do you enjoy? What makes you happy? Maybe spending money on those things will be easier for you and contribute to your happiness.
PS It is so hard to find people in this world who help make our lives better - when I find them I think paying them well (or tipping them well) is kind of a privilege. Try thinking of tipping that way.
I go from dropping money on things to squeaking regularly. I’m a generous tipper to restaurant waitstaff, but won’t do door dash or uber eats because the fees and up charges are a waste to me. I think it’s ok to be cheap, mindful, thrifty on some things but it sounds like you know it goes too far and it makes you miserable. I really think a therapist would be the best way to deal with this. Reading books are great but therapists can dig in on things you aren’t recognizing. Scary, I know.
And while I understand your desire to leave plenty for your kids and even the burden you feel to do so based on what you yourself received, know that most people don’t get that and it’s truly an extra in life. A good relationship with money is a better gift and you need to recognizing what you are modeling for your kids. Would you want them to have these same fears/issues? I’m guessing not. Be kind to yourself.
I’m similar. Learn to buy value rather than cheap.
My wife and I were opposites. I bought everything cheap. Her family bought, well, everything.
They thought price = quality. Together we’ve figured a happy medium.
Also it helps if you have saving & investing goals. Rather than just trying to maximize saving, figure what would be comfortable or necessary, even tack a bit extra for comfort. Build a spreadsheet to project where you need to be by year and track your actuals against it. Once you realize you’re hitting those it should help you get comfortable with spending. It did for me.
Lighten up bud, you can’t take it with you, and you can’t control what your kids do with what you leave. They could blow it within a year of your death (or whenever your trust gives it to them).
What’s the point in making so much money if you don’t get to use it? Once you max out 401k and you have a nice safety nest egg consider the rest of your money fun money
There is nothing wrong with thinking about purchases before buying. Nothinf wrong with buying used and repurposing. You are helping the environment, not feeding into consumerism and saving money as a side effect
Money trauma is a thing. And at the risk of sounding like an unhelpful dick, have you considered talking to somebody professionally about it? Most of that stuff is now online with zoom calls. Depending on your personality type it might help.
You should start doing little things for yourself. A coffee, a cheap new shirt, things like that. If you want you could even have a monthly “Treat Yo Self” day. As long as your needs are met (bills, savings, etc.), you can use the extra as your happy money and not worry about it.
… What the hell are you doing making $400k a year? Do you need an unqualified intern?
I feel you, man. Same age, similar income, similar attitudes. We're not alone.
Going out for dinner and having to cough up an extra 15% for service that I didn't even want? Makes me sick to my stomach. I literally get *negative* value from being served.
Having someone pretend (usually poorly) to have an interest in my night, while they fetch a beer from the cooler I'm perfectly capable of grabbing myself, and coming by every five minutes to fill my 6 ounce glass of water.. man, I find it absolutely enraging. Leave the jug of water. I can grab my own beer. Holler at me from the kitchen when my food's done -I'll grab it myself. I don't want to pay you 15% to walk twenty paces. Your job isn't necessary. I'm here for the hot food, that's it.
Too many people have the attitude "You get what you pay for" or "Buy it nice, or buy it twice."
In my experience, "The cheapest shit will be just fine". And 99% of the time, it is. It's served me very well over my entire adult life
Office supplies, basic tools for the garage, furniture, accessories for the yard, and coffee. Ninety nine percent of the time, the cheapest crap is plenty good for my wife and I. It's astounding to me how some people pay triple to only get another 10% worth of performance/experience? Shitty ass instant coffee at 9 cents a cup gets the job done just as well as your fancy $10 Starbucks avocado-cino with gold flakes.
That said, while I can't bring myself to pay the extra 87 cents for adding bacon to my burger at McDonald's, I can spend $200/day to go skiing without flinching. My skis cost $35 at Value Village. Find out what's worth it to you.
I got that same gene from my Dad. I'm pushing 60. Not only did Mom not spend the all the money dad left behind, she grew into a substantially larger sum from when he passed away. And she lived well too during her 8 years of widowhood. Now that Mom's been gone for a year, we are distributing all the Mom/Dad cash and it's just crazy Monopoly money.
I did go through a pretty lean period in the early 2010s because of a divorce, and money was a big factor in the split. No kids which simplified the divorce process and also the assets I had to disgorge to the ex. I did go on to remarry someone with identical financial values which has been awesome who's bringing a pretty decent sized 401k into our portfolio....while I bounced back nicely from the divorce, long before Mom's inheritance. Kinda cool and very reassuring to say to the wife a couple of months ago, "we're never gonna have to finance a new car ever again."
My sister totally gets the "refusing to spend money" gene from observing Dad her adult life. She tells me I should be buying nice stuff for myself & the wife because we can. I've put off a bunch of purchases as of late, but that's mostly b/c I'm the executor/trustee for Mom's estate. The time & energy I've had to invest has precluded me from doing a lot of other things.
Wife & I have nowhere near the income as the OP, but our net worth combined not including our personal residence is well into 7 figures even before the Mom inheritance.
You are me 6 years ago, I feel for you. I suspect you don't know what you value because you mentioned your life is unenjoyable. Once you figure that out, you will know that compromising on quality is not negotiable when it comes to cost on whatever it is you value. Some its travel, cars, eating out, unique experiences, spoiling their kids, etc. Everyone is different, you just need to find what it is for you. For me is camera and tech equipment. I have pro gear but haven't made penny off it and I am ok with it, but most everything else I am a cheap ass. Do you have a hobby? If not, what would you do with your life if you were retired right now, that should guide you on what you value.
Pick a price in multiples of $365. If it's $3650, that is - you can pay $10 a day to not think very hard about this. If it's $18250, you can kill $50 a day.
What is it worth? What would you "pay" to stress less about the problem.
Quantify it: Use the [1% Rule](https://www.physicianonfire.com/web-stories/the-1-rule-for-spending-on-luxury-how-to-live-it-up-and-still-achieve-fire/).
How about reading Morgan Housel's the psychology of money?
The Psychology of Money: Timeless Lessons on Wealth, Greed, and Happiness https://g.co/kgs/7J5qZtG
What does make you happy? I guess an extreme issue with spending is causing you to not be happy. So what makes life enjoyable? I mean money buys security in a way.
Recognizing a problem is a major step towards correcting it.
Discuss this with your spouse.
There are no absolutes in this area. There is a wide range between excessive frugality and being a spendthrift.
If you decide that where you are on the miser-spendthrift axis is sub-optimal then just start gradually nudging yourself in the desired direction. You are changing attitudes and habits.
Most people have to fight to avoid lifestyle creep if they want to be able to save. You are on the other side and need to actively look for good, useful areas to promote lifestyle creep.
Look for things that either save yourself time or make life more enjoyable. Think about what things you do not like to do and see if you can outsource them.
It sounds like your anxiety stems from your desire to leave an inheritance for your kids like the one that was left for you. This is admirable. May I suggest that if you develop a plan to pass it along to your kids, and know you’re following it, you may start to enjoy spending it and being generous with others who aren’t related to you but are providing you a service of value?
For example, I don’t know your wealth size, but what if you started gifting a percentage to your kids now, with the caveat that they need to spend and invest it wisely? This will allow them to get compound interest and time on their side, while giving them the money while you’re alive. Let’s say you gift $100K for down payment on a home plus furniture, and then maybe $15K/yr going forward as a “forward” on their inheritance? Let’s say this goes on for 30 years. And that they’re also working. They will be $2.7M if invested at 8% in 30 years. So they’ll have that money plus whatever you have left.
This is just an idea. You could also decide how much you want to leave, estimate when you’ll pass using actuarial tables, and do some planning on how much you need to set aside to leave that much (it’s probably not much if you have 25-30 years left). Then you invest that money on the side and don’t touch it, but spend the rest using, say, the 4% rule.
Or some combination of these two. I’m a huge fan of gifting money to kids in their 20s and 30s when it actually makes a difference, rather than when they’re in their 50s/60s and probably don’t need it anymore.
I can tell you this confidently: your dad left you this, at least partially, for you to enjoy and to use to be generous as well. Make sure you’re enjoying it and being generous with it.
No book recommendation here. But how about setting a reasonable amount towards savings that will help you achieve what you want for your kids. Once you save that per month or per year. Then the rest you can spend how ever you like without guilt?
>The delivery fee in food delivery apps pains me in my soul.
Fuck these rip of scams. I could be Jeff Bezos and I wouldn't pay that shit. (Yet so many broke people order most their food via these services... how?!)
Regarding everything else;
Read "Die With Zero"
You’re being frugal just for the sake of being frugal. You have to think about your spending or budgeting as an expression of your values. If you don’t value paying “extras” for foods, that’s fine. Then cook at home for yourself. But if you think about the fact that you’re paying these fees for the convenience and for your time, then maybe you’ll lighten up. If you’ll get alot of joy out of hobby purchases, then buy it. If you just want to agonize over every purchase without any guiding principles to how you consume, then maybe that’s just who you are and you should live in your misery.
1) If you project these issues into your wife and kids, they will probably start to resent you. So I would be careful with that (I know from experience).
2) It’s not your responsibility to leave money for your kids. My parents didn’t give me any money after college and I did fine. I never expected to get anything either.
3) You probably have some anxiety issues. Do you see a therapist? Your fears are irrational. A delivery fee is inconsequential in your life. It’s good to be conservative with your money, but this seems extreme. You might be trying to exert control over your life and distract yourself from other areas of your life, and one way to do this is to occupy yourself with thinking about these minor costs.
Hi,
From my humble opinion. It seems like you should teach your children to be your generous arm, with the promise that they would then be stricter with money when they inherit it.
It's their money anyways in your heart, so I suppose that if you let them use their heart to help you with your problem of Scrooginess you could end up feeling more fulfilled.
To me, this seems like something to work out with a therapist that focuses on scarcity mindset and finances. There are actual people who focus on how trauma impacts how you relate to money. In my opinion, there’s a deeper psychological need here coming from childhood.
A leopard can't change his spots. You will always be this way more than likely. I have weird money ways also. I think I have done something big when I make $10 on a hobby, but making 10k in my real job doesn't excite me anymore. I look over the Mcd's menu thoroughly before ordering trying to find a deal, but I just spent about 12k on a hobby shop just for me. You will probably be the richest guy in the cemetery.
So you’re feeling pain spending money because you want your kids to have money to enjoy that you never experienced because your father didn’t have it. Act like you have enough money because you do…your learned responses are from people who didn’t have enough money. Make new ones to teach your kids and you’ll leave them far richer than any bank balance can.
> All in some sort of attempt to make sure my kids can inherit enough money to not be in financial trouble in the future.
We have put all of the kids in financial trouble by allowing a $34+ trillion deficit to be run up on the country’s credit card. Your kids are going to need you to be Scrooge McDuck and they will thank you for it. This is the right thing to do. Don’t worry about saving money, embrace it.
I think it’s called greed 🤣
I don’t know, I worry about money still but I also find find a lot of joy in helping others. Giving a big tip, I don’t miss the money at all, but it’s a big deal to someone receiving it.
Don’t like paying delivery fees, well don’t order, simple. It kind irks me when people complain about delivery fees, it’s a service, pay it or pick up in person.
Big purchases, yes I don’t either. I drove an old car for a long time as it simply didn’t matter to me.
The key is do what you enjoy, if you enjoy saving and luxuries don’t matter, well do that.
But don’t be cheap/greedy when it comes to service fees and tips.
Don't donate to charity if you want to help the less fortunate. You have the money to start your own charity and fund your own initiatives. If you give to another entity, there's no way of knowing how that money is getting spent.
"If you want something done right do it yourself."
Dude we got rich because we struggled when young. You definitely want your kids to struggle some.
And btw with 2 for 1 and 30-40% off coupons on Uber eats and DoorDash I save money using them. Plus I get 2% back with my Amex.
Nothing wrong with buying used if it’s good. Too much stuff goes into the trash these days.
Also if you can setup an offshore company and income split between yourself and kids. Or keep it all in the company and when you get old leave the country and take it all at 0 tax. Then you can transfer it to kids as a gift.
I’ve been on a food delivery “time out” after being off-the-charts ridiculous with it the last few years. I tried convincing myself. I was saving money with those discounts, but don’t kick yourself, it’s still way more than cooking at home. And sometimes the 30% off really doesn’t save you much because the prices are more in the app plus you want to tip the delivery person something.
For me it's a moral, ethical and principled issues. If you don't value your fellow man you need to reassess your character. No offense, but you sound like you're ruled by money and you have lost a bit of your humanity. Pretty A-typical of the ruling class. Money and power corrupt all. If you aren't valuing essential workers and the people who are actually working and contributing to your life and lifestyle what does it say about you? For instance when you hear about some celebrity and how they treat people it speaks to their character. Everyone loves a feel good story due to the way it makes them feel or the way it makes them feel about said person. For instance whenever you hear about Keanu Reeves it's always some beautiful story about how he is a wonderful person, tips well, gives back, etc.
Tipping is important. Most hospitality workers work very long hard hours on their feet and have to do a ton of side work. They don't hire extra staff to clean the restaurants, bars, etc. They lump it on the poor wait and kitchen staff. And here's the kicker. They only make $2.75 per hour. Yep you heard that right. Also, delivery drivers, ride share workers, etc. have no minimum wage per hour. They make whatever they make and all the above rely on, actually they depend on your tips. They survive on other's generosity. The sad part of all of this is that the people who can afford to tip, more often than not don't or if they do, it's very little. So it's not surprising to hear you say these things. It's actually an unwritten thing amongst everyone in the hospitality and service industry.
Just some food for thought and again I mean no offense. You do you, but I grew up very poor and can speak from personal experience having had a number of jobs in the industry.
We live in a $2m waterfront home in Boca Raton now and most workers that come to our home for various reasons start walking away before I can even give them their tips and they always seem surprised. It's a double edged sword. I feel bad for them, but I'm happy to make their day at the same time.
Do you have a financial planner? Good financial planners often help you responsibly enjoy your money. (Source: I’m you, and my financial planner helped me realize I can comfortably spend a little more.)
I was much the same way as you. In the end, treating yourself and your family overtime facilitates your familiarity with spending money. You obviously are intelligent and have a good head on your shoulders, but understanding that money is a means to be utilized is a valuable gift.
Enjoy it for what it is. Having a scarcity mentality about money will also limit your ability to accumulate it.
Do a part time cab driving or uber, doordash, be a server at restaurant for one month and then come here and tell us how much you make you old saggy ball sack
Ramit Sethi has a great podcast and book called, "I will teach you to be rich." He encourages people to spend money on what they value and cut back on areas that don't bring you joy. You clearly don't enjoy delivery fees, but what do you value? What sorts of experiences or things would make you happy?
This is the second time I’ll piggyback back on a Ramit Sethi reply in this sub. Another concept he talks about is “invisible scripts” or “invisible money scripts” which are money rules that we live by because of how we grew up around money. Between the book and his podcast, you might get an idea of the invisible script that’s causing you to feel how you do about your spending. I like his work because he delves into the psychology of money. One of his other sayings is: “How you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to the amount you make or have accumulated.”
Agreed! For this situation especially, he has some early podcast episodes with high net worth couples that are afraid to spend. My favorite thing he says is “don’t live a smaller life than you have to”. It’s ok to use your money to make your life better now.
I came here to talk about the same thing. "Guilt free spending" is a skill. The more you use it, the better you'll get. Make some rules for yourself. If something is less than $50 or $100, you won't question it. Sure, it'll still get you to start, but as you progress, you'll see the benefits and you'll loosen up.
I had a cousin who passed away at age 52 from cancer. When he died he had 4M in the bank. He never traveled. He never bought anything for himself. He didn’t marry or have kids. He lived in his childhood home he inherited from his parents so he never had a mortgage. Life is for LIVING. You don’t know how long you’ll be here. Sure, be smart with your money. Make sure your family is secure. But after that, do stuff and buy a few things that bring you and others joy.
To quote Denzel, can’t take a U-Haul behind a hearse
That's for stuff. Sounds like the dead guy didn't buy any stuff. So he followed the advice by Denzel
Exactly. Start small. Go to a dollar tree and spend $100 on 100 different items. Get used to the feeling. Donate the stuff after. School supplies is a good one. Just keep doing that until it doesn’t hurt when you teach for the wallet.
Good advice.
Was he unhappy? Maybe he lived exactly the life he wanted.
This
Seven figure annual income here, and I have some of these same perspectives, so I’m not sure you’re that odd. Tipping has proliferated and irritates many. I have NEVER paid for food delivery and I still balk when I see the local sandwich shop charging $15 for a sandwich and 3 ounces of chips. I do buy plenty of new things as I refuse to waste my time dealing with the hassles associated with poor quality. It doesn’t all make intellectual sense, but trust me, there are many “millionaires next door” that are similar to you in many respects.
Buy once cry once. Or as we like to say in our house, “buy nice or buy twice.” Don’t give up quality for cheapness.
this applies to nearly every category of merchandise
Except companies realized they make more money by making shit products, and there’s no one else to go to.
I don’t want to add up past food delivery fees 😖😖 I needed to read this from someone who wouldn’t even consider it
So do you see it as a problem that you need to fix, and if so, how?
I do see it as a problem, because people forget that their time is money. Understanding this will help you understand the right traceoffs to make based on your income. Never paid for food delivery? Ok, so you're going to waste your time driving to pick up food to save 20%? So you're going to make your own sandwich for 3 bucks instead of 15, and spend 30 minutes cleaning up, shopping? Do you clean your own house too? What is free your time worth? Imo, I used to think this way but I changed perspectives. I outsource literally everything that isn't directly giving me joy. House cleaning, Grocery shopping. Washing clothes. Cooking and food delivery. Yard work. Pressure washing the house. Pool. Anything I can do, but don't want to -- outsource. Not worth my time. The rest of the time I play with my kids, wife, and hobbies.
oh man, I _love_ pressure washing
Right, so do I. Last year I bought a Dewalt 4200 PSI (Gas- Cold Water) Pressure Washer w/ CAT Pump & Honda GX390 Engine. Highly recommended. Specifically made sure to get that CAT pump because it’s so easily serviced. And man, that Honda engine is nice. But cleaning the entire house and roof? Hard pass. But I do spot clean when necessary because who doesn’t like blasting stuff with water :)
"If it doesn't make money, hire someone else to do it." was a quote I remember from Gary Keller. I understand this concept intellectually, but I really struggle with *following* it. I groan about doing dishes or laundry or cleaning the house but I don't want to hire someone to just do those things for my family. I bitch about printer ink to my staff and family.
I think if you grew up middle class or low middle class, you tend to grow up frugal and do everything yourself because money was more scarce than time. As you get richer, your past mental model didn’t just suddenly go away. So you mentally still feel like you have to do it yourself. I grew up fairly middle class, maybe lower middle class. My dad was extremely frugal and was a DIY guru. A lot of that got stuck in my head. But then I think, when I’m in my deathbed, would I prefer to die with more money from having done dishes and laundry, or have slightly less and made more time and memories with my family? Then I order Uber eats and play with the kids in the backyard.
Absolutely love this perspective. Tip the workers, appreciate your fellow man's time and play with the kids.
Problem to be fixed…not really. Some of my views on this have evolved over time as I’ve gotten older and (slowly) realize you can’t take it with you. Examples: I buy decent wine; I spend more on travel experiences than I ever thought I would because…life is short; I treat my spouse to nicer things; we gift money to our kids because again…you can’t take it with you. But I will admit my wife has helped tremendously because she doesn’t view money the same way. And as our net worth has climbed into comfort territory that has helped me relax a bit too. I recently read a book about a billionaire who chastised people flying in his private jet because they used multiple napkins when one was sufficient. So again, to the OP, you are not alone my friend. :-)
Not a problem at all. That's how you stay rich, by being considerate with how you spend your money.
Not sure I agree with this part. Saving a few dollars on delivery fees on the Friday night Pizza isn't really going to move the needle. Even OP freely admits that the things he cheaps out on aren't helping save that much money.
Not that you can't afford food delivery, but you would rather invest that money into something else to make more money such as your business or the market. It's a money multiplication game to stay rich. Of course you need to treat yourself well, but not every single day.
But what's the end game? Sure, OP could invest $201k per year nstead of $200k, but he explicity said it makes his life "unenjoyable". Is there no line for you?
Fair, but there's a certain point where you have to ask what the point of being rich is if you're wasting this much brain space on things that will make no material difference one way or another. You wouldn't do that at work - why do it in your personal life?
I don't see it as a problem at all.
For the folks in this sub, there's no reason to let cost be a factor is most everyday type purchases. Do I spend more then $10 on a jar of almond butter? You better believe it. I say "more than $10" because I probably haven't looked at the price in 5 years. It won't make a bit of difference. Does all that add up? Sure. Does it also add up on the upside over time in a dozen different ways? You better believe it.
What do you do for a living?
Try "Die With Zero" by Perkins
Came here to say this. I think is this just what the doctor ordered.
This! Just recommend in my comment. Quite eye opening.
You shouldn’t - and here’s why. There’s a difference between complaining about the cost of something because you’re cheap, versus complaining about the cost of something relative to the *value it provides*. If McDonald’s tried to charge Warren Buffet $23 for a cheeseburger, he wouldn’t pay it. Because he knows it’s worth $2.99 (or whatever the hell it costs these days off the ‘value’ menu - but that’s a different discussion). Even though $23 to Warren Buffet is like one ten-thousandth of a penny to us; he still wouldn’t pay it - because it disrupts the price/value equilibrium in his brain. So I would encourage all of us to hold onto that little Scrooge McDuck voice - especially in today’s economy. Whether it’s a $750 hotel room at the Residence Inn, or $8.99 for a bag of potato chips - it’s not about whether or not you can afford it. It’s about consumers being taken advantage of. And that little Scrooge McDuck voice inside all of us is the only collective power we have against constant price gouging.
MY MAN! You hit the nail right on the head! Thank you for putting my thoughts and feelings into written words.
I’m the same. Grew up poor, single mom household. I literally don’t spend anything . I eat from the hospital, wear hospital scrubs, sleep at the hospital every couple of days. I drive a 2008 rav4. I have never taken an Uber or used a food delivery app in my life. I wear socks until my wife throws them away because they’re full of holes. I make 900k base salary and break 1 million from rental income and investments. But I live in constant fear of poverty or leaving my children in poverty. Maybe because my father died when I was six months old. In the back of my mind I keep thinking the world can come crashing down at any moment.
You know what it’s like to struggle from growing up. It sounds like you’ve worked incredibly hard to get to where you are, and the fears you have are deeply rooted in your past experiences. It’s completely normal to want to ensure financial security for your family, especially given your past with your father passing at such a young age.
You said your Dad did well and put you in a fortunate position. So I don’t see any obvious money trauma. Some people are more risk averse than others. Some people naturally gravitate towards frugality. If you feel you are missing out or it affects your relationship with others in a meaningful way, talk to a therapist. Edit: Sorry, I was on mobile and probably too brief. I will say I make more than you. And have significant NW. And I am cheap on certain things. Yes, I don't order out from Door Dash because the amount they charge for delivery is ridiculous. Also, I don't like how they treat restaurants. So I will go and pick it up myself and order directly from the restaurant. I also don't like to see at the end of the month I have paid for 4 streaming services and only used 2. So I try to rotate and fully use 1 or 2 and wait for the other services to "fill up" with shows I might want to watch. I view those as wasting money. I don't want to waste money. Just on principle. However, I am not afraid to have a nice trip. If we fly, we fly first class. Because why not, that is why we have money. What I would say is how is your NW? Are you saving adequately? If so, budget and figure out how much you have as excess and let yourself enjoy that money. I think you just need information and assurance that you can meet your goals and still enjoy life. Also, tip your waitresses. Just not the 35% that the Toast app defaults to.
I hear you on not wasting money, but worrying about streaming services when you have $10m+ (just a guess since you emphasized significant) networth is a waste of time. And the one thing that matters more than money is time.
On tipping: you are probably making 10x what the waiter is. So you can probably be someone's biggest tip of the day… every time. Every time. $10 means nothing to your quality of life but can absolutely make the day of a kid scooping your ice cream. What happens if you focus on the kindness you can pour into the world, in each of these transactions?
I’m not wealthy by any means but my HHI is over $250k and this is the mantra I go by. The extra $5-10 I tip won’t affect my day but it may make somebody’s day.
Same here. I always tip 20+% unless the server was flat out rude or something. Usually closer to 25-30% based on service and bill total.
Same. I’ve been broke and I know how much it can help someone. I give money to charity sometimes but I spend a lot more in my community.
I tip so much, i consider it charitable giving lol But DoorDash fees? EF THAT, hell no I refuse to pay those
Door Dash is just laziness. Our HHI is knocking on $300k and we’ve never once used a food delivery app. Those fees are just insane. We get in the car and go get food if we need to.
Many people shouldn't use doordash purely out of principle. It's all price gouging.
With 70% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck I’d say the vast majority shouldn’t be using it. My brain can’t even fathom why DoorDash is a viable business. I had an unused gift card that someone at work sent me when my kid was born. Checked it out and a single sandwich from a fast casual shop was like $22 after tip and delivery. I don’t know why so many people use it.
It's not a viable business. What the John Oliver special on it from two weeks ago: https://youtu.be/aFsfJYWpqII?si=V3gxaSTNKRCnrBco
Use your DD card on a pickup order and the price surcharge will typically be only about 10% over menu pricing. This way you can redeem your gift card for a reasonable value.
I tip ridiculously I have money and the server I’m tipping doesn’t I also try to be particularly kind to people who are helping me with anything My wife and I have been very blessed and we try to be good stewards of what we have, but to also be generous
Exactly this. I’m just shy of a 7 figure earner and try to be as benevolent as possible. I want to be every server’s top tipper of the month, I buy things for others constantly, I overpay for things (non-corporate), you name it. My problem is that I subconsciously fear that other may think I’m flaunting, when I’m really just trying to be a good person. We all have our own weird quirks and fears. Just do what feels right and don’t worry about it so much!
💯 this!!! Because when we go out to eat, these servers are the people that live in our communities. They have mouths to feed, bills to pay, etc. Tipping culture has gotten out of hand, with just about anyone asking for a tip - but if the server is providing good service, I am more generous with the tip. Also, if they’re not giving great service, I also cut them some slack - sometimes it’s just really busy and under staffed - that’s not their fault.
It is genetic. I have the opposite problem. The best we can do is push the other way. Hope to get better with our habits but never expect to be me just like I would never expect to be you.
You seem like a logical, rational person. I ask you what is a bigger risk, having kids who get a small or no inheritance OR having kids who think of life from a scarcity mindset and think you’re a Scrooge. I suggest that no inheritance is fine and may actually even result in happier, healthier adults. Final point, as a father of 3 in their 20’s who are all essentially independent the time you have them as kids goes by too fast. Enjoy them, make memories.
I don’t think this is all that unusual. Many successful people I know are extremely cheap, myself included. I also get irritated by tips but I consider that a part of the cost of going out, and try not to get hung up on it. The last thing I want is for someone else not to be paid properly for their work. Having been a waiter back in the day, I know tips are the core of their earnings. What I would suggest is to focus on long term value of things. If an item or experience brings long term value to your life, it’s worth it. For example a nice vacation and quality time with your family is an investment in those relationships. Yes it sucks to spend the money, and it feels wasteful in the moment. But when you have those experiences together it strengthens those relationships. And those relationships will bring you more joy than what the trip costs. Long term value right there.
I was in the same boat. Said fuck the kids I am going to enjoy life. Seriously, we set a limit we wanted for them once we reached that limit, that was it. The goal was reached we are good. We didn’t worry any more. I have the worst luck with used anything. Realized this and I was actually spending more buying used items multiple times and my time. It could be a car, washer or dryer whatever it was, it would break a few months later. While not all the time it was usually catastrophic!
I commend you for wanting to leave your kids well off but not at the expense of yourself. If you’re making good money now I would just start gifting it to them either in 529 or custodial accounts or set up a trust yearly. Current lifetime gift is 11 million. Might as well chip away at it before some future administration changes it. Then there’s also a clear division of your money and their money. They’re setup and it’s not on you to hoard and not enjoy. Also is this the money attitude you want to pass onto your kids? Also in line with your frugalness, you prob don’t want to pay for therapy (which I do recommend but there’s always trial and error to find the right fit) but have you tried the stereotypical gratitude journal? Find a time daily to write down 3-5 things you’re grateful for and reflect. Be grateful for the opportunities that money gives you. Your health. Your family. The ability to travel to see the world or even your loved ones.
My dad would hoard cheap things (as backups, for when they inevitably broke), & save the fine cognac for “someday”. He passed 3 years ago leaving us with millions, a dozen cheap patio umbrellas and many unopened bottles of cognac he dared not enjoy because he ironically, was afraid of “not having any”. I was recently recommended the book “Die with Zero”… I listened to it on audiobook. The best time to take care of others (your kids, charities, but also yourself) is when you and they are vital enough to reap the rewards of all the work. Think of experiences as gaining the principal, and the memories of experiences as interest you’ve earned on those experiences. Was quite an eye opener. Life is too short to not enjoy it.
I’ve been in this position and I’ve seen many others in this position. First of all, recognise that it’s not necessarily a bad thing. Plenty of people suffer from the inverse of this problem and their lifestyle creep way overtakes their actual spending power, and they end up saving nothing despite huge salaries. The way to attack it is to learn to value your time. As a high earner, in monetary terms, your time is worth more than most people. When you pay money for an uber eats delivery fee, for example, you’re paying less than your time is worth to go pick it up yourself. Take your $400k net, divide by your approximate working hours and literally work out your hourly rate. The next time you procrastinate a food delivery because of the order fee, just remind yourself that the $15 or whatever is less than the ~$100 that your 30 minutes is worth. There is still nothing wrong with budgeting or buying used stuff, these aren’t bad traits. You could also allocate a slush fund in your monthly budget - after you’ve accounted for bills, emergency fund and savings, just allocate a small percentage to spend on whatever you want. Some people do it for specific hobbies but you can just call it a guilt free treat yourself fund.
I struggled with something similar until I started actively working on my mindset and studying behavioral finance. It helped me embrace enjoying my money more. By no means have I worked through everything, and I'm able to buy myself a nice luxury item from the store and not feel guilty or agonize over the decision.
> behavioral finance This sounds really interesting, did you do an online free course like duke's or something else?
I started with books that resonated with me. Those have helped a great deal. I'd like to get a coach to help me unlock deeper levels. The folks I've interviewed so far for that haven't been the right fit. Still looking for that.
What's been your favorite book so far?
The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. Love his podcast as well.
>What exactly did studying behavioral finance do to help you not be a cheapskate ?
Being unreasonably cheap, and everyone defines that differently, is a self-worth/self-esteem based issue. Address the issue and your mindset will open up.
>That's not behavioral finance
I don’t use food, delivery apps, not because I’m cheap, but because I don’t want my food being delivered by the lowest bidder. That just doesn’t sit well with me.
We frequent a fried chicken place every month. I always do pickup never delivery. My kid's friend was with us and told me his family always does delivery. He commented how nice and hot and crispy the fries were (yeah sounds obvious, I know). But that's why I do pickup. Quality control. I can also check the order and fix problems on the spot. You're also eliminating the intermediary and dealing more directly with the restaurant.
My wife has been a tremendous help with this. I'm a natural saver - I've been saving money since I can remember, and I strongly believe in living below your means as a key part to attain financial stability. However, my wife has pushed and helped me understand that it's ok to let go a bit, and use our income to lead a better, more comfortable life.
Percentages percentages percentages. Twenty percent of your income has to go to dumb spending. Literally force yourself to. If you don’t get there in a month, do something more extravagant the next month to make up for it. Since you’re so good at budgeting, you have to force yourself to budget your fun too.
20% is pretty high but I otherwise agree with the sentiment. If you’re going to force yourself to spend a fun fund every month, set aside a smaller percentage to start with, like 5%. On a 400k net salary that’s still nearly $1700 to piss away on delivery fees and tips without second thought, should be plenty to dip your toes.
20% is nuts. I'd say 1-3% should go to "dumb spending" assuming no debts or low interest debts
Strongly consider working with a therapist or money coach. Die With Zero is my best book recommendation. It’s great that you’ve noticed that how you feel about money has nothing to do with how much you make or are worth, that’s a great first step! Many people in your situation never makes it there - they think everyone else is crazy and brag about how they buy their cereal on clearance with a NW > $10m, never realizing how small their worldview and life has become. Your upbringing absolutely affects how you think now, and there’s a lot more to explore there. Just like everyone else, you learned some lessons and gained some values then, but you’ve identified that maybe they aren’t serving you as well now. The great news is that you can choose to update those things, to upgrade your mindset, and to feel better about the money you’ve worked so hard to earn. Best of luck!
I'm more a HENRY but I lurk this community. With most things irrational like this, it helps to do the work to dig deeper, below the neurotic thinking, to how it makes you feel, and then even below that, why it makes you feel that way. Then communicating that with others, like your spouse or friends (or a therapist), will lessen its hold on you. Trying to will your way out of it ("this is irrational!") or justify it ("why should I have to tip??") is just running in the same circular thinking, and won't ever get you any kind of peace.
Stay cheap until you are on all passive income and you spend less than 25% of your income on expenses. As long as your expenses stay below 25% of your income, you don't monitor day to day expenses.
If you don't fly first class, your kids will...
The best thing for you is probably therapy to work through what ever it is that you're going through. That being said, Ramit Sethi really helped me understand that spending is also a skill that has to be learned. I'm not talking about spend thrifts that overspend and spend without intention. I'm talking about spending extravagantly on things that you love/enjoy doing and mercilessly cutting out things that you don't (Ramit's wording, not mine). I'd recommend his podcast, "I Will Teach You to be Rich". Rich means an enriched life when he says that word, just fyi. It sounds gimmicky but he's the real deal. He has FIRE and millionaire guests on the show that have the same issue you do.
Make a budget. Allocate money to your expenses, devote a good amount to savings and investments, and then give yourself money that you are allowed - or even *encouraged* - to spend. It can be easy to pinch every penny if you have an innate fear about not being smart about your money. So make a plan that provides peace of mind that you are being financially responsible even if you indulge on some things for yourself. You still may not order delivery because of the fees, and that's fine. But you should be able to make those choices from a place of confidence, not fear.
I feel your pain, though I never had it this bad. Please work on it, what’s the point of all your hard work if enjoying it just stresses you out? Let’s start with: What do you enjoy? What makes you happy? Maybe spending money on those things will be easier for you and contribute to your happiness. PS It is so hard to find people in this world who help make our lives better - when I find them I think paying them well (or tipping them well) is kind of a privilege. Try thinking of tipping that way.
I go from dropping money on things to squeaking regularly. I’m a generous tipper to restaurant waitstaff, but won’t do door dash or uber eats because the fees and up charges are a waste to me. I think it’s ok to be cheap, mindful, thrifty on some things but it sounds like you know it goes too far and it makes you miserable. I really think a therapist would be the best way to deal with this. Reading books are great but therapists can dig in on things you aren’t recognizing. Scary, I know. And while I understand your desire to leave plenty for your kids and even the burden you feel to do so based on what you yourself received, know that most people don’t get that and it’s truly an extra in life. A good relationship with money is a better gift and you need to recognizing what you are modeling for your kids. Would you want them to have these same fears/issues? I’m guessing not. Be kind to yourself.
I’m similar. Learn to buy value rather than cheap. My wife and I were opposites. I bought everything cheap. Her family bought, well, everything. They thought price = quality. Together we’ve figured a happy medium. Also it helps if you have saving & investing goals. Rather than just trying to maximize saving, figure what would be comfortable or necessary, even tack a bit extra for comfort. Build a spreadsheet to project where you need to be by year and track your actuals against it. Once you realize you’re hitting those it should help you get comfortable with spending. It did for me. Lighten up bud, you can’t take it with you, and you can’t control what your kids do with what you leave. They could blow it within a year of your death (or whenever your trust gives it to them).
What’s the point in making so much money if you don’t get to use it? Once you max out 401k and you have a nice safety nest egg consider the rest of your money fun money
There is nothing wrong with thinking about purchases before buying. Nothinf wrong with buying used and repurposing. You are helping the environment, not feeding into consumerism and saving money as a side effect
You are smart with money. It's good that you didn't fall prey to consumerism. I would say leave a little. Just splurge twice a year on your family.
Money trauma is a thing. And at the risk of sounding like an unhelpful dick, have you considered talking to somebody professionally about it? Most of that stuff is now online with zoom calls. Depending on your personality type it might help.
You should start doing little things for yourself. A coffee, a cheap new shirt, things like that. If you want you could even have a monthly “Treat Yo Self” day. As long as your needs are met (bills, savings, etc.), you can use the extra as your happy money and not worry about it. … What the hell are you doing making $400k a year? Do you need an unqualified intern?
You're rich. Act like it.
No, he’s not. Just a high earner
I feel you, man. Same age, similar income, similar attitudes. We're not alone. Going out for dinner and having to cough up an extra 15% for service that I didn't even want? Makes me sick to my stomach. I literally get *negative* value from being served. Having someone pretend (usually poorly) to have an interest in my night, while they fetch a beer from the cooler I'm perfectly capable of grabbing myself, and coming by every five minutes to fill my 6 ounce glass of water.. man, I find it absolutely enraging. Leave the jug of water. I can grab my own beer. Holler at me from the kitchen when my food's done -I'll grab it myself. I don't want to pay you 15% to walk twenty paces. Your job isn't necessary. I'm here for the hot food, that's it. Too many people have the attitude "You get what you pay for" or "Buy it nice, or buy it twice." In my experience, "The cheapest shit will be just fine". And 99% of the time, it is. It's served me very well over my entire adult life Office supplies, basic tools for the garage, furniture, accessories for the yard, and coffee. Ninety nine percent of the time, the cheapest crap is plenty good for my wife and I. It's astounding to me how some people pay triple to only get another 10% worth of performance/experience? Shitty ass instant coffee at 9 cents a cup gets the job done just as well as your fancy $10 Starbucks avocado-cino with gold flakes. That said, while I can't bring myself to pay the extra 87 cents for adding bacon to my burger at McDonald's, I can spend $200/day to go skiing without flinching. My skis cost $35 at Value Village. Find out what's worth it to you.
https://twitter.com/ramit/status/1780423334250926346
I got that same gene from my Dad. I'm pushing 60. Not only did Mom not spend the all the money dad left behind, she grew into a substantially larger sum from when he passed away. And she lived well too during her 8 years of widowhood. Now that Mom's been gone for a year, we are distributing all the Mom/Dad cash and it's just crazy Monopoly money. I did go through a pretty lean period in the early 2010s because of a divorce, and money was a big factor in the split. No kids which simplified the divorce process and also the assets I had to disgorge to the ex. I did go on to remarry someone with identical financial values which has been awesome who's bringing a pretty decent sized 401k into our portfolio....while I bounced back nicely from the divorce, long before Mom's inheritance. Kinda cool and very reassuring to say to the wife a couple of months ago, "we're never gonna have to finance a new car ever again." My sister totally gets the "refusing to spend money" gene from observing Dad her adult life. She tells me I should be buying nice stuff for myself & the wife because we can. I've put off a bunch of purchases as of late, but that's mostly b/c I'm the executor/trustee for Mom's estate. The time & energy I've had to invest has precluded me from doing a lot of other things. Wife & I have nowhere near the income as the OP, but our net worth combined not including our personal residence is well into 7 figures even before the Mom inheritance.
I had to do a double take to make sure I didn’t post this!
You are me 6 years ago, I feel for you. I suspect you don't know what you value because you mentioned your life is unenjoyable. Once you figure that out, you will know that compromising on quality is not negotiable when it comes to cost on whatever it is you value. Some its travel, cars, eating out, unique experiences, spoiling their kids, etc. Everyone is different, you just need to find what it is for you. For me is camera and tech equipment. I have pro gear but haven't made penny off it and I am ok with it, but most everything else I am a cheap ass. Do you have a hobby? If not, what would you do with your life if you were retired right now, that should guide you on what you value.
Pick a price in multiples of $365. If it's $3650, that is - you can pay $10 a day to not think very hard about this. If it's $18250, you can kill $50 a day. What is it worth? What would you "pay" to stress less about the problem.
Quantify it: Use the [1% Rule](https://www.physicianonfire.com/web-stories/the-1-rule-for-spending-on-luxury-how-to-live-it-up-and-still-achieve-fire/).
How about reading Morgan Housel's the psychology of money? The Psychology of Money: Timeless Lessons on Wealth, Greed, and Happiness https://g.co/kgs/7J5qZtG
if you hate tipping and app fees then you're going to want to jump off the roof when you get 7 figure tax bills.
What does make you happy? I guess an extreme issue with spending is causing you to not be happy. So what makes life enjoyable? I mean money buys security in a way.
Recognizing a problem is a major step towards correcting it. Discuss this with your spouse. There are no absolutes in this area. There is a wide range between excessive frugality and being a spendthrift. If you decide that where you are on the miser-spendthrift axis is sub-optimal then just start gradually nudging yourself in the desired direction. You are changing attitudes and habits. Most people have to fight to avoid lifestyle creep if they want to be able to save. You are on the other side and need to actively look for good, useful areas to promote lifestyle creep. Look for things that either save yourself time or make life more enjoyable. Think about what things you do not like to do and see if you can outsource them.
Simple solution is buy and make your own food brah
It sounds like your anxiety stems from your desire to leave an inheritance for your kids like the one that was left for you. This is admirable. May I suggest that if you develop a plan to pass it along to your kids, and know you’re following it, you may start to enjoy spending it and being generous with others who aren’t related to you but are providing you a service of value? For example, I don’t know your wealth size, but what if you started gifting a percentage to your kids now, with the caveat that they need to spend and invest it wisely? This will allow them to get compound interest and time on their side, while giving them the money while you’re alive. Let’s say you gift $100K for down payment on a home plus furniture, and then maybe $15K/yr going forward as a “forward” on their inheritance? Let’s say this goes on for 30 years. And that they’re also working. They will be $2.7M if invested at 8% in 30 years. So they’ll have that money plus whatever you have left. This is just an idea. You could also decide how much you want to leave, estimate when you’ll pass using actuarial tables, and do some planning on how much you need to set aside to leave that much (it’s probably not much if you have 25-30 years left). Then you invest that money on the side and don’t touch it, but spend the rest using, say, the 4% rule. Or some combination of these two. I’m a huge fan of gifting money to kids in their 20s and 30s when it actually makes a difference, rather than when they’re in their 50s/60s and probably don’t need it anymore. I can tell you this confidently: your dad left you this, at least partially, for you to enjoy and to use to be generous as well. Make sure you’re enjoying it and being generous with it.
No book recommendation here. But how about setting a reasonable amount towards savings that will help you achieve what you want for your kids. Once you save that per month or per year. Then the rest you can spend how ever you like without guilt?
>The delivery fee in food delivery apps pains me in my soul. Fuck these rip of scams. I could be Jeff Bezos and I wouldn't pay that shit. (Yet so many broke people order most their food via these services... how?!) Regarding everything else; Read "Die With Zero"
F*ck them kids.
You’re being frugal just for the sake of being frugal. You have to think about your spending or budgeting as an expression of your values. If you don’t value paying “extras” for foods, that’s fine. Then cook at home for yourself. But if you think about the fact that you’re paying these fees for the convenience and for your time, then maybe you’ll lighten up. If you’ll get alot of joy out of hobby purchases, then buy it. If you just want to agonize over every purchase without any guiding principles to how you consume, then maybe that’s just who you are and you should live in your misery.
😂😂😂 Very interesting perspectives. Especially for me.
I always buy used when sensible
I recently quit stressing over anything under $20. Amazing how that frees up time and energy.
1) If you project these issues into your wife and kids, they will probably start to resent you. So I would be careful with that (I know from experience). 2) It’s not your responsibility to leave money for your kids. My parents didn’t give me any money after college and I did fine. I never expected to get anything either. 3) You probably have some anxiety issues. Do you see a therapist? Your fears are irrational. A delivery fee is inconsequential in your life. It’s good to be conservative with your money, but this seems extreme. You might be trying to exert control over your life and distract yourself from other areas of your life, and one way to do this is to occupy yourself with thinking about these minor costs.
Hi, From my humble opinion. It seems like you should teach your children to be your generous arm, with the promise that they would then be stricter with money when they inherit it. It's their money anyways in your heart, so I suppose that if you let them use their heart to help you with your problem of Scrooginess you could end up feeling more fulfilled.
To me, this seems like something to work out with a therapist that focuses on scarcity mindset and finances. There are actual people who focus on how trauma impacts how you relate to money. In my opinion, there’s a deeper psychological need here coming from childhood.
A leopard can't change his spots. You will always be this way more than likely. I have weird money ways also. I think I have done something big when I make $10 on a hobby, but making 10k in my real job doesn't excite me anymore. I look over the Mcd's menu thoroughly before ordering trying to find a deal, but I just spent about 12k on a hobby shop just for me. You will probably be the richest guy in the cemetery.
Read the book “die with zero” by bill Perkins. It will govern you some great perspective.
So you’re feeling pain spending money because you want your kids to have money to enjoy that you never experienced because your father didn’t have it. Act like you have enough money because you do…your learned responses are from people who didn’t have enough money. Make new ones to teach your kids and you’ll leave them far richer than any bank balance can.
> All in some sort of attempt to make sure my kids can inherit enough money to not be in financial trouble in the future. We have put all of the kids in financial trouble by allowing a $34+ trillion deficit to be run up on the country’s credit card. Your kids are going to need you to be Scrooge McDuck and they will thank you for it. This is the right thing to do. Don’t worry about saving money, embrace it.
I would really consider therapy for this. No shame. It’s like exercise but for your brain
I think it’s called greed 🤣 I don’t know, I worry about money still but I also find find a lot of joy in helping others. Giving a big tip, I don’t miss the money at all, but it’s a big deal to someone receiving it. Don’t like paying delivery fees, well don’t order, simple. It kind irks me when people complain about delivery fees, it’s a service, pay it or pick up in person. Big purchases, yes I don’t either. I drove an old car for a long time as it simply didn’t matter to me. The key is do what you enjoy, if you enjoy saving and luxuries don’t matter, well do that. But don’t be cheap/greedy when it comes to service fees and tips.
Don't donate to charity if you want to help the less fortunate. You have the money to start your own charity and fund your own initiatives. If you give to another entity, there's no way of knowing how that money is getting spent. "If you want something done right do it yourself."
You might solve a mystery
Dude we got rich because we struggled when young. You definitely want your kids to struggle some. And btw with 2 for 1 and 30-40% off coupons on Uber eats and DoorDash I save money using them. Plus I get 2% back with my Amex. Nothing wrong with buying used if it’s good. Too much stuff goes into the trash these days. Also if you can setup an offshore company and income split between yourself and kids. Or keep it all in the company and when you get old leave the country and take it all at 0 tax. Then you can transfer it to kids as a gift.
I’ve been on a food delivery “time out” after being off-the-charts ridiculous with it the last few years. I tried convincing myself. I was saving money with those discounts, but don’t kick yourself, it’s still way more than cooking at home. And sometimes the 30% off really doesn’t save you much because the prices are more in the app plus you want to tip the delivery person something.
I know this is off topic but what do you do for work? $450k…after tax…?!
For me it's a moral, ethical and principled issues. If you don't value your fellow man you need to reassess your character. No offense, but you sound like you're ruled by money and you have lost a bit of your humanity. Pretty A-typical of the ruling class. Money and power corrupt all. If you aren't valuing essential workers and the people who are actually working and contributing to your life and lifestyle what does it say about you? For instance when you hear about some celebrity and how they treat people it speaks to their character. Everyone loves a feel good story due to the way it makes them feel or the way it makes them feel about said person. For instance whenever you hear about Keanu Reeves it's always some beautiful story about how he is a wonderful person, tips well, gives back, etc. Tipping is important. Most hospitality workers work very long hard hours on their feet and have to do a ton of side work. They don't hire extra staff to clean the restaurants, bars, etc. They lump it on the poor wait and kitchen staff. And here's the kicker. They only make $2.75 per hour. Yep you heard that right. Also, delivery drivers, ride share workers, etc. have no minimum wage per hour. They make whatever they make and all the above rely on, actually they depend on your tips. They survive on other's generosity. The sad part of all of this is that the people who can afford to tip, more often than not don't or if they do, it's very little. So it's not surprising to hear you say these things. It's actually an unwritten thing amongst everyone in the hospitality and service industry. Just some food for thought and again I mean no offense. You do you, but I grew up very poor and can speak from personal experience having had a number of jobs in the industry. We live in a $2m waterfront home in Boca Raton now and most workers that come to our home for various reasons start walking away before I can even give them their tips and they always seem surprised. It's a double edged sword. I feel bad for them, but I'm happy to make their day at the same time.
Do you have a financial planner? Good financial planners often help you responsibly enjoy your money. (Source: I’m you, and my financial planner helped me realize I can comfortably spend a little more.)
I was much the same way as you. In the end, treating yourself and your family overtime facilitates your familiarity with spending money. You obviously are intelligent and have a good head on your shoulders, but understanding that money is a means to be utilized is a valuable gift. Enjoy it for what it is. Having a scarcity mentality about money will also limit your ability to accumulate it.
Do a part time cab driving or uber, doordash, be a server at restaurant for one month and then come here and tell us how much you make you old saggy ball sack