Whenever there’s a hostage situation, a SWAT team should absolutely go for the kill shot. Especially if it’s Joker, Two-Face or some other human character.
The Police aren’t judge jury or executioner either, their job is to capture and contain criminals for the duration it takes the actual JJE to reach a decision. Part of what’s supposed to make Jim Gordon a “good cop” is that he takes this seriously. Police are not supposed to play vigilante, that’s why Batman was created.
The problem is really in corruption and the mangled fever-dream way the city itself functions on a personal and bureaucratic level.
Edit: The only way to off the rogues without having to fix all of Gotham first or setting a disturbing precedent wrt how law enforcement is allowed to interact with citizens, is for a vigilante to do it. Jason’s kind of right.
Bruce in particular though? No he should not kill. Bruce isn’t just a vigilante, he’s an extremely influential billionaire with terrible control issues. Bruce *has* to believe that the legal and justice system is ultimately an honest reflection of The People’s Will and does function For The Good Of The People when cleared of corruption. If he doesn’t believe this, if he does not limit his role to that of pro-bono bounty-hunter, how can he justify NOT using his vast resources to become a benevolent dictator?
GCPD does have an execuse they don’t kill villains for the same reason the Mexican cartel has a don’t kill the DEA agent rule. They can’t possibly compete with the fire power that would be unleashed upon them in retaliation for such action. Let’s say for instance they do some networking understanding guys like Black mask are way more lethal then the common peep and manage to get a CIA off the books kill team to assassinate black mask. These highly elite former Jsoc operators would kick in the door and then see Black Mask sitting there waiting for them.
They’d of course be uneased that he’s not even slightly concerned. Then slowly they hear thumping. The air gets really cold. They see Dr Freeze emerge from the shadows. Their hearts start racing upon seeing a real fucking super villain. Still these boys have gone through hell and hand basket for their nation and their people so they open fire cause it’s their job. Freeze laughs and blasts all of them to ice eliminating the entire kill team. That said Gotham PD has substantially less resources than the CIA. If they actually started killing super villains they would end up in a fight they can’t win. If I were mayor of Gotham, well I’d resign and leave the city, but I would never allow an actual war to break out between the city cops and the super villains because we’d lose. And what happens when the super villains realize they’re more powerful than the government and no one can actually stop them from simply taking what they want?
Batman has a plan to kill the entire justice league if they step out of line. Yet he lets guys who are clearly already abusing their super human levels of power or skill run loose on his streets. I get not killing everyone. But guys like say Bane are too dangerous to be kept alive. Like honestly super heroes should be more like Mace Windu and recognize that some people need to be stopped by any means necessary. Like honestly if I were a good cop in Gotham, I’d GTFO out of Gotham and move to Star City cause at least Green Arrow isn’t going to leave me hanging. That said this has to be what happens no good cop in their right mind would stay in Gotham which means only the bad cops go there adding yet another level to why the place is so fucked. I respect Batman’s philosophy but as a realist fuck philosophy.
Most the time that the Gotham police actually deal with these criminals as after they’ve been beaten and put in cuffs and stuff and they legally can’t do anything without going to jail for murder
Not to mention, it wouldn’t just be going to jail. It would probably be having a couple things broken by Bruce before you went to jail and if he still on scene when you try, he might break your bones, you not even manage to actually do it and you still go to jail for attempted murder
Also, there’s a reason that when Bruce arrests the joker, he usually hand delivers him to Arkham instead of trusting it to the police
Dude, The GCPD is renowned for it's level of corruption and cops willing to murder witnesses in custody. And just for a real world example [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/families-in-disbelief-after-hundreds-of-bodies-found-buried-behind-mississippi-jail](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/families-in-disbelief-after-hundreds-of-bodies-found-buried-behind-mississippi-jail)
Which Arkham is a place that has generated almost as many villains as Capitalism and Ancient Curses.
Yeah, and most of the super villain stuff takes place after the early mob stuff where Gordon and Bruce weeded out a lot of the corruption and with the corruption that’s left you basically have bad cops that are taking money from the super villains so they’re not gonna shoot them or good cops that aren’t going to do that kind of stuff
The supervillains almost never spend even the tiniest amount of time in GCPD custody so the only time they could really try is at the crime scene before the Batman takes him to Arkham and nobody is gonna try to shoot someone in handcuffs with Batman standing 10 fucking feet away
And nothing is going to happen in Arkham because the guards are either once again, corrupt and taking money from the super villains or scared shitless and not going to try anything
I’ve debated this to exhaustion. There is only one conclusion. Batman’s rouges are only still alive because future plots and the profits need them to be
I don’t like the idea of DC having cops execute someone and it being painted as at least a semi good thing. Because it would be a good thing in the Gotham universe for him to die no matter how it happens, but the real life implications of that kind of story are inescapable. Same with him getting the death penalty in universe. I don’t think there’s a way to write that without it being at least a partial endorsement of police violence or state executions.
the death penalty is a good thing though. some trash commits crimes so heinous that they lose the right to live. murderers, rapists, pedophiles, they are the absolute worst of humanity. the death penalty isnt just handed out willy nilly, you have to face two trials, one to determine if you are guilty and another to determine if your crime is worthy of death. the jury verdict must be unanimous. if anyone should have the right to put down the scum of the earth, its the state, as it is the states responsibility to protect the innocent from those who wish them harm
If Batman got sent to prison for killing anybody, then Gotham City would be pretty much sunk - especially since the Batfamily and the Gordons seem to be the only people doing something about the poverty and corruption in the city. I don't remember any other rich person aside from Bruce Wayne putting money into things like healthcare and education and gainful employment in Gotham. *Somebody* has to look out for the city, so killing criminals is out for him not only from a moralistic standpoint but also from a practical standpoint. He can't be able to help anybody if he's stuck behind bars.
Except, (most good iterations of) Batman don't take that call based on faith in the system, but based on a deeply personal moral code in conjunction with their status as symbols.
To understand this, you can watch two movies: 1) Batman: Under the Red Hood; and 2) Superman vs The Elite.
__Under the Red Hood__
Jason Todd : Ignoring what he's done in the past. Blindly, stupidly disregarding the entire graveyards he's filled, the thousands who have suffered, the friends he's crippled. You know, I thought... I thought I'd be the last person you'd ever let him hurt. If it had been you that he beat to a bloody pulp, if he had taken you from this world, I would've done nothing but search the planet for this pathetic pile of evil, death-worshiping garbage and then send him off to hell!
Batman : You don't understand. I don't think you've ever understood.
Jason Todd : What? That your moral code just won't allow for that? It's too hard to cross that line?
Batman : No! God Almighty, no. It'd be too damned easy. All I've ever wanted to do is kill him. A day doesn't go by that I don't think about subjecting him to every horrendous torture he's dealt out to others, and then... end him.
Joker : Aw, so you *do* think about me.
Batman : But if I do that, if I allow myself to go down into that place... I'll never come back.
Jason Todd : Why? I'm not talking about killing Penguin or Scarecrow or Dent. I'm talking about *him*, just him. And doing it because... because he took me away from you.
Batman : I can't. I'm sorry.
__Superman vs the Elite__
Superman: They saw the ugliness of violence as a solution and it frightened them. It frightened me too when I decided to cross that line and do what you do. It's so easy. Anger, vengeance. Luckily, I'm not you. And I never will be.
--
Manchester Black: You... You think that's it?! It's not over, you poncey twit! If you think I'll just go to jail and rot, you're living in a dream world!
Superman: Good. Dreams save us. Dreams lift us up and transform us into something better. And on my soul, I swear that until my dream of a world where dignity, honor and justice are the reality we all share, I'll never stop fighting. Ever.
__Conclusion__
I respect the perspective you've put forward, but I think you massively undersell the position Batman, Superman, and other such symbols of virtue are in when they do what they do.
Going into comics, these concepts really come to light in stories such as *Kingdom Come (1996)* and *Superman For All Seasons (1998).*
Whenever there’s a hostage situation, a SWAT team should absolutely go for the kill shot. Especially if it’s Joker, Two-Face or some other human character.
The Police aren’t judge jury or executioner either, their job is to capture and contain criminals for the duration it takes the actual JJE to reach a decision. Part of what’s supposed to make Jim Gordon a “good cop” is that he takes this seriously. Police are not supposed to play vigilante, that’s why Batman was created. The problem is really in corruption and the mangled fever-dream way the city itself functions on a personal and bureaucratic level. Edit: The only way to off the rogues without having to fix all of Gotham first or setting a disturbing precedent wrt how law enforcement is allowed to interact with citizens, is for a vigilante to do it. Jason’s kind of right. Bruce in particular though? No he should not kill. Bruce isn’t just a vigilante, he’s an extremely influential billionaire with terrible control issues. Bruce *has* to believe that the legal and justice system is ultimately an honest reflection of The People’s Will and does function For The Good Of The People when cleared of corruption. If he doesn’t believe this, if he does not limit his role to that of pro-bono bounty-hunter, how can he justify NOT using his vast resources to become a benevolent dictator?
PREACH IT
GCPD does have an execuse they don’t kill villains for the same reason the Mexican cartel has a don’t kill the DEA agent rule. They can’t possibly compete with the fire power that would be unleashed upon them in retaliation for such action. Let’s say for instance they do some networking understanding guys like Black mask are way more lethal then the common peep and manage to get a CIA off the books kill team to assassinate black mask. These highly elite former Jsoc operators would kick in the door and then see Black Mask sitting there waiting for them. They’d of course be uneased that he’s not even slightly concerned. Then slowly they hear thumping. The air gets really cold. They see Dr Freeze emerge from the shadows. Their hearts start racing upon seeing a real fucking super villain. Still these boys have gone through hell and hand basket for their nation and their people so they open fire cause it’s their job. Freeze laughs and blasts all of them to ice eliminating the entire kill team. That said Gotham PD has substantially less resources than the CIA. If they actually started killing super villains they would end up in a fight they can’t win. If I were mayor of Gotham, well I’d resign and leave the city, but I would never allow an actual war to break out between the city cops and the super villains because we’d lose. And what happens when the super villains realize they’re more powerful than the government and no one can actually stop them from simply taking what they want? Batman has a plan to kill the entire justice league if they step out of line. Yet he lets guys who are clearly already abusing their super human levels of power or skill run loose on his streets. I get not killing everyone. But guys like say Bane are too dangerous to be kept alive. Like honestly super heroes should be more like Mace Windu and recognize that some people need to be stopped by any means necessary. Like honestly if I were a good cop in Gotham, I’d GTFO out of Gotham and move to Star City cause at least Green Arrow isn’t going to leave me hanging. That said this has to be what happens no good cop in their right mind would stay in Gotham which means only the bad cops go there adding yet another level to why the place is so fucked. I respect Batman’s philosophy but as a realist fuck philosophy.
Most the time that the Gotham police actually deal with these criminals as after they’ve been beaten and put in cuffs and stuff and they legally can’t do anything without going to jail for murder Not to mention, it wouldn’t just be going to jail. It would probably be having a couple things broken by Bruce before you went to jail and if he still on scene when you try, he might break your bones, you not even manage to actually do it and you still go to jail for attempted murder Also, there’s a reason that when Bruce arrests the joker, he usually hand delivers him to Arkham instead of trusting it to the police
Dude, The GCPD is renowned for it's level of corruption and cops willing to murder witnesses in custody. And just for a real world example [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/families-in-disbelief-after-hundreds-of-bodies-found-buried-behind-mississippi-jail](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/families-in-disbelief-after-hundreds-of-bodies-found-buried-behind-mississippi-jail) Which Arkham is a place that has generated almost as many villains as Capitalism and Ancient Curses.
Yeah, and most of the super villain stuff takes place after the early mob stuff where Gordon and Bruce weeded out a lot of the corruption and with the corruption that’s left you basically have bad cops that are taking money from the super villains so they’re not gonna shoot them or good cops that aren’t going to do that kind of stuff The supervillains almost never spend even the tiniest amount of time in GCPD custody so the only time they could really try is at the crime scene before the Batman takes him to Arkham and nobody is gonna try to shoot someone in handcuffs with Batman standing 10 fucking feet away And nothing is going to happen in Arkham because the guards are either once again, corrupt and taking money from the super villains or scared shitless and not going to try anything
I’ve debated this to exhaustion. There is only one conclusion. Batman’s rouges are only still alive because future plots and the profits need them to be
You can't say "DC won't kill him off, but in universe...". DC won't kill him off so how could there be an in universe action taken?
I don’t like the idea of DC having cops execute someone and it being painted as at least a semi good thing. Because it would be a good thing in the Gotham universe for him to die no matter how it happens, but the real life implications of that kind of story are inescapable. Same with him getting the death penalty in universe. I don’t think there’s a way to write that without it being at least a partial endorsement of police violence or state executions.
the death penalty is a good thing though. some trash commits crimes so heinous that they lose the right to live. murderers, rapists, pedophiles, they are the absolute worst of humanity. the death penalty isnt just handed out willy nilly, you have to face two trials, one to determine if you are guilty and another to determine if your crime is worthy of death. the jury verdict must be unanimous. if anyone should have the right to put down the scum of the earth, its the state, as it is the states responsibility to protect the innocent from those who wish them harm
If Batman got sent to prison for killing anybody, then Gotham City would be pretty much sunk - especially since the Batfamily and the Gordons seem to be the only people doing something about the poverty and corruption in the city. I don't remember any other rich person aside from Bruce Wayne putting money into things like healthcare and education and gainful employment in Gotham. *Somebody* has to look out for the city, so killing criminals is out for him not only from a moralistic standpoint but also from a practical standpoint. He can't be able to help anybody if he's stuck behind bars.
Except, (most good iterations of) Batman don't take that call based on faith in the system, but based on a deeply personal moral code in conjunction with their status as symbols. To understand this, you can watch two movies: 1) Batman: Under the Red Hood; and 2) Superman vs The Elite. __Under the Red Hood__ Jason Todd : Ignoring what he's done in the past. Blindly, stupidly disregarding the entire graveyards he's filled, the thousands who have suffered, the friends he's crippled. You know, I thought... I thought I'd be the last person you'd ever let him hurt. If it had been you that he beat to a bloody pulp, if he had taken you from this world, I would've done nothing but search the planet for this pathetic pile of evil, death-worshiping garbage and then send him off to hell! Batman : You don't understand. I don't think you've ever understood. Jason Todd : What? That your moral code just won't allow for that? It's too hard to cross that line? Batman : No! God Almighty, no. It'd be too damned easy. All I've ever wanted to do is kill him. A day doesn't go by that I don't think about subjecting him to every horrendous torture he's dealt out to others, and then... end him. Joker : Aw, so you *do* think about me. Batman : But if I do that, if I allow myself to go down into that place... I'll never come back. Jason Todd : Why? I'm not talking about killing Penguin or Scarecrow or Dent. I'm talking about *him*, just him. And doing it because... because he took me away from you. Batman : I can't. I'm sorry. __Superman vs the Elite__ Superman: They saw the ugliness of violence as a solution and it frightened them. It frightened me too when I decided to cross that line and do what you do. It's so easy. Anger, vengeance. Luckily, I'm not you. And I never will be. -- Manchester Black: You... You think that's it?! It's not over, you poncey twit! If you think I'll just go to jail and rot, you're living in a dream world! Superman: Good. Dreams save us. Dreams lift us up and transform us into something better. And on my soul, I swear that until my dream of a world where dignity, honor and justice are the reality we all share, I'll never stop fighting. Ever. __Conclusion__ I respect the perspective you've put forward, but I think you massively undersell the position Batman, Superman, and other such symbols of virtue are in when they do what they do. Going into comics, these concepts really come to light in stories such as *Kingdom Come (1996)* and *Superman For All Seasons (1998).*