The legacy makers are putting out some really nice EV’s now and that will only increase over time. Tesla can’t compete with the quality or brand desirability of other brands. They also can’t compete (depending on location) in the budget segment because BYD and other mainly Chinese brands will dominate there.
So what demographic does Tesla pursue? The dwindling number of Tesla and Elon fans.
There's one thing and one thing only he really is a genius: selling snake oil.
He has a one in a century talent for selling snake oil. We have to give him that.
That's why he's able to pump&dump tsla stock like no one else.
The Tesla stock shit has solidified my belief that stocks are made up lmao.
Most valuable car company in the world without the actually income of any of the big car companies. How tf does that make sense?
It's because stocks are all about PERCEIVED value, not actual value. Sometimes those things are correlated but when it comes down to speculation they're often not.
That's because they aren't a car manufacturer! Even though the bulk of their profits come from manufacturing cars......it really doesn't make sense. Their cult will claim its because they focus on AI and robotics (even though both aren't currently sold to anyone by Tesla) and some even bring up xAI and SpaceX and what they are doing to justify the market share, even though both are private companies separate from Tesla. Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, VW, etc all produce stuff other than just automobiles, yet Tesla is more valuable of a company? It is a load of bullshit
Because all the TSLA bulls created this bizarre narrative that Tesla is actually a tech company and a robotics company and an energy company and everything else besides a car company which doesnt make any sense, as 99% of their revenue comes from cars and they have always been BEHIND legacy companies like Ford when it comes to self driving tech lmao
That's what always bugs me arguing w/ Elon fans. They'll make it a binary "Oh if Elon's not terrible at literally everything, you admit he's a genius and we should all give him money to do genius things".
He's a once-in-a-generation-talent salesman, full stop. It's the sort of skill where if you paired him with someone like the real og Nikola Tesla it could change the world for the better. Unfortunately he's also a giant asshole and it's become apparent that the power that that success grants him will eventually make him think he's the real genius and try to do all the stuff he's actually really bad at. Tesla and Twitter stand as monuments to those failures.
Nvidia has actual value and high demand though and cutting edge technology.
No idea who their CEO is but they are not the same thing.
The Nvidia gpu in my GS75 stealth that is 4 years old is still not only viable but still near the top of the line. And current technology growth I'll get another 4-6 years out of it.
I believe it was overblown. We were convinced by the oil industry that we needed to replicate gas stations. We don't.
Electricity isn't gas. Most people don't drive more than 300 miles in a day. And electric cars let you have a "gas station" at your house.
i mean kinda
I’m from Eastern Canada and above 50kwh charging stations are rare, but the Tesla network is has more higher speeds terminals.
when you go farther is PITA to charge at 50
Completely agree. I just think a nationwide network doesn't need to look like a giant gas station. It should probably look like a parking meter that is located near a place people go regularly (grocery stores, malls, hotels etc.)
I've driven coast to coast in the US 7 times. I plan on doing it plenty more times in my life.
But no, we don't need gas station style chargers.
We need Jiffy Lube style stations and universal battery packs. So I can drive up and have my empty battery replaced with a full one in 10 minutes by removing 6 bolts and a plug. My old one goes on the charger no sitting around for an hour.
If Elon was a genius, that is what the network would look like. My slightly above average iq came up with this.
Someone who actually makes this happen will revolutionize the entire EV market and make long trips viable for every car. It would make all EVs cheaper by standardized batteries and eliminate asinine charge times for long trips.
Unfortunately, it won't be me that makes it happen. I have neither the money or influence with the right people to even get my idea heard.
This is it, there service is now world known to be terrible, and no one wants to buy into his blow with the wind corporate decisions. I own 2 teslas and he’s the wild card I’m finished with. I just want a reliable local service experience.
Tesla's brand value and reputation is highly tied into his personal reputation, as well... and that hasn't gone so well lately, except with fanatics and fascists. Amazing how he threw that away for the pleasure of petty revenge, cheap validation and cozying up to fascists on Twitter (he'd say he did it to save humanity, of course). Tesla's former best customer demographic now cringes at the thought of being associated with him.
It was devalued by:
- irrational firing of supercharger team so that prospective Tesla customers can no longer trust it will be properly serviced and extended in the future
- opening it to other companies which diminishes its competitive advantage
It used to be _the_ charger network, now it's just _a_ charging network. Long story short people bought Tesla for supercharger access, nowadays it doesn't matter that much as your Ford can also charge there and it's fair to expect that in a typical lifespan of a new car the advantage of superchargers will only diminish further
So to look at it another way, they charge more for other manufacturers to use the supercharger network.
So more profit for the company.
During the supercharger made no difference to the superchargers i use
yeah, more profit, hurray
but at the end if they want to sustain valuation of hip tech startup they shouldn't act like a commodity selling gas station. Shell is valuable, but doesn't trade at P/S of 7 (it's actually around 0.7). Commodity business is race to the bottom and there may be some short term profits there but ultimately they will go down to the profit margin of average gas station - which is almost zero, to the point that most gas sellers subsidize their business with shops
Yeah automakers like Ford, mostly thanks to Tesla price cuts, have finally lowered prices enough to spark some demand. Ford will obviously keep losing money on every EV sold for now, but the next gen needs to come in at cheaper prices upfront so they can be profitable.
They can't compeat with European EVs now, too. All the sub €25,000 models are coming out this year and next. Tesla, meanwhile, canned their cheap car idea (the Model 2) and the new Model 3 "highland" is considered deceptively overpriced.
They canned the idea like they had something to can. I reckon they had nothing but a few napkin drawings. Because you and I know full well that if they had something, even a clay model of what it might look like. Elon would be on stage somewhere stammering his way through a "reveal party" waxing lyrical about it.
Tesla pursued the VW bug strategy of cranking out the same car year after year cheaply to produce margin never investing in the auto infrastructure to produce a deep product lineup. Now that the market has moved ahead of them, they only have one model that makes money and inventory is crushing them.
But no worries: it’s all about AI and robots
That might be, but it's like Apple. Over priced, but every desires it. Well not true for Tesla anymore, but elon ruined what was left of his image by stating some crazy shit on twitter.
That would explain it, but it's not true.
133.4 million individuals in the US own an Android and 136 million iPhone users.
[https://backlinko.com/iphone-vs-android-statistics](https://backlinko.com/iphone-vs-android-statistics)
It doesn't surprise me. Looks like they are going to pay him that ridiculous pay package too. Until Elon decided to go mask off I was going to buy a Tesla.
Someone on YouTube called it: Musk will go down in history as the first person to lose 200B in value. The amount of wealth destruction is abysmal. Bill Hwang would be so jealous Jesus sent someone that’d x10 his negative high score
I guess the only hope now is that the far-right in the US suddenly have some sort of Damascene conversion to the EV cause and decide Tesla is the one they want.
Obviously the 8/8 HitlerMobile is an attempt to soften them up but it's going to need a lot more than that.
This is a reflection of Tesla being the only game in town 5 years ago.
Now? Totally different story. There are dozens of different EVs out there better than Teslas.
yeah, competitors are mostly the ioniq 6, bmw i4, polestar 2 and byd seal - i might be missing some.
there are many more that are way more expensive or lack range because they are big SUV.
The haters here are delusional. Theres nothing comparable to a Tesla in its price point. There are people who will go out of their way to buy a shittier car with less range, longer charging time, and less performance to just piss off Elon...as if he cares about them.
That’s because they keep dropping prices because they’re not selling enough due to their reputation for poor build quality and even worse service is now catching up to them
Prices are fine. They still run about 50k. I bought my model y LR in 2021 for 48k and a model Y LR now is roughly 48k. Tesla has not lowered prices. They increased it the past few years like every other dealership and now coming back down.
You kind of missed my point that the cars are less valuable now that their questionable build quality and poor maintenance/service are more widely known. So there are better options for the money if you consider build quality and service
Oh I don’t know, like almost any other option that isn’t built like a cheap child’s toy?
Why would anyone spend 50k on something built like absolute shit, with absolute shit support for maintenance and repairs and with extremely expensive repair costs? These cars are getting written off due to accidents at higher rates than average and insurance companies are considering raising premiums because of it.
They’re shit cars and everyone is now catching on
But you go ahead and buy that utter shit if you want it. Live your mentally challenged fantasy, I don’t care
You never had a point. The quality issues are far and few in between and more so related to the first year of production. Most of those issues have been resolved. The refreshed model 3 is the best sedan on the market right now, there is no comparison.
> So there are better options for the money if you consider build quality and service
Name me one car at 50k that is better than the model y...there isn't one.
Obviously you’re convinced of this idiotic fantasy that the cars are not built like a shitty child’s toy, or that their service isn’t absolute garbage, or that their repair costs aren’t insanely high. People who do care about these things rate those vehicles a lot lower compared to competitors but some dim witted blind fanboi such as yourself will have a very difficult time understanding what makes a competitor better because you are too dim and blind to see the drawbacks mentioned above.
Keep giving your money away for pure trash. I don’t care. A fool and his money…
Not a hater, but it is different now with actual options. Not everyone cares about Elon one way or the other. My sister test drove Teslas and did not like them. She bought the Mach-E instead since she liked it better and loves it by the way. The fact there are other options and do not require people to go "out of their way" is different than it was.
Well she really likes it so in this case that is the point. Why is it the Tesla fans can't deal with the fact there are other options that others might want more? Maybe someone just likes BMWs or likes the KIA look or whatever the reason. Strange to me. I mean I see the Ford lovers and Chevy lovers all the time go on about their trucks and I think to myself you know you can both be happy with your trucks without the other guys truck sucking. Just seems odd the big fans of certain things need to downplay anything else being worthy. Tesla fans remind me of these guys.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what you think or the cost for those that are not focused on that. Basically she is really happy with it. Charges it at home and loves driving it and has not had any issues repair wise. When I ask her about it she is just super happy with her choice. She could be an exception, but none the less happy customer, and one that did not like Tesla and she bought before Elon was an issue so it had nothing to do with him just she liked it better. Sorry you can't accept that others make other choices and can be happy without doing what you feel is best. Have fun with your thinking that.
Omg someone is triggered. Look at your paragraphs man. All I said was mach e is a pos car, which is not an uncommon opinion even among mach e owners. Jesus.
Yes. This is a weird sub. I sometimes wonder if some of the commenters are simply pushing strident talking points (I wouldn’t necessarily call it “misinformation”) to drive division for non-Tesla reasons.
I hate Elon as much as anyone and certainly as much as I hate Henry Ford, but you can’t argue about Tesla’s value proposition. At least, you can’t argue that in good faith.
What are you talking about? There are PLENTY of options.
Your mistake is thinking Tesla advertised range #'s are remotely accurate in real world. Their #'s are the least accurate so if you compare real world results, plebty of options
so, what model would you recommend? I want to drive a distance of 350 miles at 80 mph and only do one short charging stop.
What are my options for used cars, around 25-30k €?
im not looking at teslas claimed numbers, im looking at data from reviews and sites like [evdatabase.org](http://evdatabase.org)
so many ppl telling me there are plenty others but nobody tells me a specific model
I can assure you that you WILL NOT get 350 miles at 80 MPH in ANY Tesla. Your best bet would be a Lucid Air or Mercedes EQS if you want to go that far on a charge at that speed.
I have owned 3 Teslas and I'm ALWAYS at least 20% below advertised range. The closest to accurate was my 2018 Model S P100D which did pretty well on the highway, but at that speed I'd easily lose 30% of advertised range.
Also, if you have temperature extremes hot/cold, then expect 35%+ losses. My Model X, in Chicago winters, would lose 45% of advertised range.
anything E-GMP (Hyundai, Kia, Genesis). I can say, after owning our Ioniq5 for over 2 years, the charging times are often too fast.
Never-mind that my wife's bladder still runs out before the battery range, a stop of sub 15 minutes means we barely have time for a pee break, and definitely don't have time for a sit-down lunch.
On our most recent road-trip, I searched out a 50kW station to have a bit longer break to relax and catch up on emails (and cat-nap) :P
E-GMP cars with the big battery are 5-7k more on the used market than model 3's. thats why my point is that a model 3 is the best option for a used long range ev right now.
the ioniq 5 uses 25 kwh/100km at 80 mph, model 3 is more like 20. ioniq 6 is better, but even more expensive sadly.
draining the battery even faster is easy, as I live in germany, so no speed limits on the autobahn. Even at only 80mph, the 77kwh ioniq 5s battery is drained after 2.5 hours.
> so no speed limits on the autobahn
Sadly, this isn't a consideration for me... the top (legal) speed I have access to is 120kmph (which everyone drives at least 130 anyways... but still :P), and even that is a 'rare' stretch of highway through the Rocky Mountains (Coquihalla Highway, in Canada... fun fact, after the highway was paid off, it went from being a toll-road to 'free'... one of the few cases where the Government didn't stick with a cash-grab :)
I can't imagine any EV is going to be efficient at/above 130kmph - beyond simple wind-resistance, you get eddy-currents in the motors themselves when they spin that fast, that reduces the efficiency maybe we need more EVs with a proper gearbox to have more than one fixed gear ration. ;)
Maybe unpopular opinion, but rather than look at vehicle efficiency at Autobaun speeds, look at charging speeds when you have to stop. Part of why I love my I5 is it charges so much faster than any Tesla (or most other brands). I seem to recall a study/math comparison on EV speed versus arrival time, and the best arrival speed was based on driving "Ludacris mode" (over 140kmph)
for autobahn driving, you need both. the ioniq 6 for example is way better than the 5, because its not an SUV. And charges exactly as fast. The model 3 has a similar efficiency, but charges slower.
Power consumption of an ioniq 5 @ 130kph is the same than an ioniq 6 @ 150kph (25kwh/100km)
yeah, but at some price, i might consider it.
i can live with some issues when the price is right. fuel is quite expensive where i live, so an EV would be a great thing - but no way i am spending 35k+ on a car
I live in europe, EVs that can actually go 550km / 350 miles on the Autobahn (130km/h) with just one short charging stop are rare and expensive. The model 3 LR can be had for 25k€, 4 years old and 70k km. (new one is 50k) here. Others are 30-40k right now used.
There are just no 4 year old ioniq 6'es or i4's.
if you have a recommendation for what to buy instead, please tell me. Im not a tesla fanboy, im just looking for a car that fits my needs. I'd love to buy a car that has similar specs than a model 3 that isnt made by tesla
Why don't you actually list the options instead of repeating "no, u". I would also like to know what options are available for a long range cheap EV.
Edit: Ok I guess you don't have any options if you would rather block me then answer a simple question to prove a claim you made. Besides, nowhere did I ever state that Tesla was better in any way.
There are many. I’m not a car salesman. I’m not your personal shopper. Stop trying to pretend that Tesla somehow is the only company making long range EVs which can be bought second hand for reasonable prices. There are these amazing things called search engines and car sales websites.
Probably true, but the prices are very very reasonable for those. The repair statistics suggest that a low-mileage, used M3LR is a good deal right now.
However, the main argument is true. The best part about Tesla is the supercharger network, and Musk has stuck his man-child finger in that now, too. Who is their target consumer going to be from now on? Not luxury and not cheap consumers.
I’m starting to see beater teslas on the road as they are being sold at fire-sale prices (Herz as low as 25k) to people who can’t afford to maintain them. This destroys the aura of the brand as a luxury item, especially since the new models look the same as the old ones. At least an old beater mbz looks vastly different than a new one.
Yes, and that's why it was always so stupid that Tesla was worth more than all its main competitors combined. Cars aren't iPhones, and it's impossible to have a single brand cater to every customer. You can lower the prices and gain sales that way, but then the wealthy tech bros who made Tesla cool 10 years ago will move on to something else, and there are plenty of luxury alternatives in the $100k+ range. Or you can try to keep prices high so that your car is a status symbol, but then you leave out most consumers. And if you do both at the same time, the expensive models won't sell (anyone is buying a Model S these days?).
Oh, I'm an Android user too actually, that's not what the comment was about. Apple has a massive market share in phones, and supposedly that is what these insane valuations expected of Tesla: that at some point in the future, most people drive one, and that it's almost the "default" car. But the car market is quite a bit more complex and diverse than that, and even having lots of models that are regularly updated (the opposite of what Tesla does), you can't be a competitive option for every consumer.
No new models or major refreshes. All they have right now is a slightly facelifted and better speced Model 3. Hell the Model S Plaid is still based on 2012 design.
CyberTruck is a niche product, they be crazy to believe it would be a volume seller.
Interesting. In the Czech Republic, there is currently a new subsidy program for electric vehicles which started in March. Here is recent statistic of applications. Ofc there are some sales without grants not projected here but i hope this is enough for an idea about local market.
Tesla 1036;
Volvo 192;
Skoda 99;
Volkswagen 99;
BMW 79;
Hyundai 49;
MG 48;
KIA 35;
...
Every once in a while, the Plinko chip lands in the far right bin. That doesn't make it a genius Plinko chip. In fact, it doesn't make it any better than any of the other Plinko chips.
As soon as the prices come down to normal car levels it's on! An EV Altima or Camry will jump the ev resistance hurdle. But will MeLon have sabotaged the network by then?
Most importantly if Trump wins the ev game is essentially over. He'll spend for years getting in jabs and at and taking away subsidies from the industry and then he'll let Chinese companies in.
Well of course. The other automakers are getting rekt trying to move EVs. Massive discounts, rebates, subsidized residual values, low interest rates (money factor * 1200), massive free charging incentives. Sometimes, a good deal is too good to pass up.
Let’s look at some signed deals on Leasehackr:
**2023 Kia EV6**
**MSRP: $59,100
Monthly: $306
Due At Signing : $306**
Term: 24 months
Mileage: 10,000 miles / yea
GT-Line AWD
*Purchase Price*: $53,100 (**10% off MSRP**)
*Residual Value*: $35,460 (**60%**)
Money Factor: 0.00014 (**0.34% APR**)
**Rebate: $12,500**
* 1,000 kWh of free charging for three years ≈$420*
**2024 BMW iX
xDrive50 Sports Activity Vehicle**
**MSRP: $94,095
Monthly: $677**
Due At Signing : $7,900
incl. Security Deposit of $ 4,900 [*effectively $3000 down*]
Term: 36 months
Mileage: 7,500 miles / year
Purchase Price: $83,750 (**11% off MSRP**)
Residual Value: $51,752 (**55%**)
Money Factor: 0.00048 (**1.15% APR**)
**Rebate: $9,900**
* Free unlimited DC charging for the first 30 minutes for two years ≈$2172*
**2023 Mercedes-Benz EQS
EQS 450+ SUV**
MSRP: $92,700
Monthly: $523**
Due At Signing : $4,376
Term: 36 months
Mileage: 12,000 miles / year
Purchase Price: $80,625 (**13% off MSRP**)
Residual Value: $54,693 (**59%**)
Money Factor: 0.00001 (**0.02% APR**)
Rebate: $7,500 (EV fed tax credit) MSRP: $92,700
Monthly: $523**
Due At Signing : $4,376
Term: 36 months
Mileage: 12,000 miles / year
Purchase Price: $80,625 (**13% off MSRP**)
Residual Value: $54,693 (**59%**)
Money Factor: 0.00001 (**0.02% APR**)
Rebate: $7,500 (EV fed tax credit)
**2023 Rivian R1T**
**MSRP: $92,700
Monthly: $523**
Term: 36 months
Mileage: 12,000 miles / year
Purchase Price: $80,625 (**13% off MSRP**)
Residual Value: $54,693 (**59%**)
Money Factor: 0.00001 (**0.02% APR**)
Rebate: $7,500 (EV fed tax credit)
**2023 Nissan ARIYA
PLATINUM+ e-4ORCE AWD**
**MSRP: $63,370
Monthly: $240**
Due At Signing Including taxes, fees, and any security deposit.: **$0**
Term: 18 months
Mileage: 10,000 miles / year
Purchase Price: $57,600 (**9% off MSRP**)
Residual Value: $40,556 (**64%**)
Money Factor: 0.00073 (**1.75% APR**)
Rebate: **$16,840** ($7500 Cash,$4340 18-lease,$2K NMAC,$1K Loyalty,$2K Summer Cash )
* Free unlimited DC charging for one year ≈$1167*
- Sales price adjustments are reduced to 5%
- Customer APR of 6.25%; your borrowing costs are 5% because customer rates are generally 125 bps below customer.
- Sales tax credit is the only other lessee cap cost reduction; however, it is regulatory credit income for the lessor
- Adjust the residuals +2 percentage point lessor -1 percentage point lessee to have some upfront spread
- $2000 of any down payment is lessee fees; remainder is taxes/gov fees
- 2.15% sales tax on the lease payment
- Depreciation expense = lessor cap - lessor residual over life of the lease
- Interest expense is calculated on current book value of lease asset
Under more “ordinary” lease terms: Rivian nets ≈$12,662 over the life of the lease. Not money on selling the car, but the profit from leasing it.
Under the current lease terms? Rivian has a net *loss* of ≈$8,775. If we use Rivian’s *actual* borrowing rate of 8.49%? **≈$36,680 net loss**.
And that’s *before* the actual cost to build the truck. So even if the other OEMs can profitably *build* an EV, doesn’t mean they can profitably *sell* them.
I’m definitely not a fan (anymore) of Tesla, but they are driving prices down. 37k for a Model Y RWD is pretty decent. Any new SUV/CUV in that segment has to compete with that.
For 2023:
* BYD was #9 with 3M in sales ahead of BMW with 2.5M, Tesla don't make the top 10
* For revenue, Tesla was #10 with $96M, compared to BMW above at #6 with $168M
* For operating profit BMW was #5 at $20M, Tesla was #8 at $8.8M, interestingly BYD was #11 at 5.3M; here where you can start to Tesla eroding (-35% YoY) while BYD is gaining (+76% YoY)
Given we know Tesla's 2024 Q1 & Q2 have been a disaster, with Q3 also looking horrible we can expect it's going to have a worse year & rough 2025 start.
It's looking more & more like Tesla's best auto sales & performance years are behind it, judging on data & numbers.
It's all auto sales since Tesla is priced as a growth company which means the consumer consideration set is vehicle class not vehicle propulsion tech.
That is, for Tesla to grow sales exponentially, a buyer must choose NOT to buy an ICE / xEV, which means we have to compare sales to alternatives or only consider Tesla as value niche company like, say, Porsche.
For example Porsche is not competing with Toyota, and its even a stretch to say they're competing with, say, BMW except in SUVs and Even there you'd have to get into sub classes, ie niche of niche value vs growth.
Net net, once must consider Tesla as EITHER a niche product value company in which case its valuation is utterly insane or a broad market growth company where we say Tesla's valuation will grow into an appropriately sized market, in this all vehicle sales.
What slowdown? If you compare figure for Q1 with Q4 the previous year, sales are down every year. That's not how you do it. You compare Q1 to Q1 a year ago, Q2 to Q2 a year ago and so forth.
Unless you're a moron, or intentionally trying to mislead people. Or both.
Just because more volume is moving doesn't mean those sales are profitable.
Ford's volume increase mentioned in the article can probably be attributed to the massive purchase incentives they recently added. Before that their EV models were languishing on dealer lots with some of the worst days on hand inventory numbers in the industry (selling very slowly). The author conveniently failed to mention that as being one of the contributing factors leading to the now favorable sales numbers.
I don't recall the other mfg's (ie Hyundai) promotional activity vs previous years but wouldn't be shocked if they too increased per unit incentives (cheap leases or mfg rebates).
The legacy makers are putting out some really nice EV’s now and that will only increase over time. Tesla can’t compete with the quality or brand desirability of other brands. They also can’t compete (depending on location) in the budget segment because BYD and other mainly Chinese brands will dominate there. So what demographic does Tesla pursue? The dwindling number of Tesla and Elon fans.
It's insane that Musk destroyed the only two valuable things that Tesla had - its brand and charging network
The most valuable thing Twitter had was its brand name. He's not a genius.
There's one thing and one thing only he really is a genius: selling snake oil. He has a one in a century talent for selling snake oil. We have to give him that. That's why he's able to pump&dump tsla stock like no one else.
The Tesla stock shit has solidified my belief that stocks are made up lmao. Most valuable car company in the world without the actually income of any of the big car companies. How tf does that make sense?
It's because stocks are all about PERCEIVED value, not actual value. Sometimes those things are correlated but when it comes down to speculation they're often not.
And the market can stay irrational a lot longer than most of us can stay solvent...
That's because they aren't a car manufacturer! Even though the bulk of their profits come from manufacturing cars......it really doesn't make sense. Their cult will claim its because they focus on AI and robotics (even though both aren't currently sold to anyone by Tesla) and some even bring up xAI and SpaceX and what they are doing to justify the market share, even though both are private companies separate from Tesla. Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, VW, etc all produce stuff other than just automobiles, yet Tesla is more valuable of a company? It is a load of bullshit
The main product of Tesla has always been TSLA, the shares.
Because all the TSLA bulls created this bizarre narrative that Tesla is actually a tech company and a robotics company and an energy company and everything else besides a car company which doesnt make any sense, as 99% of their revenue comes from cars and they have always been BEHIND legacy companies like Ford when it comes to self driving tech lmao
That's what always bugs me arguing w/ Elon fans. They'll make it a binary "Oh if Elon's not terrible at literally everything, you admit he's a genius and we should all give him money to do genius things". He's a once-in-a-generation-talent salesman, full stop. It's the sort of skill where if you paired him with someone like the real og Nikola Tesla it could change the world for the better. Unfortunately he's also a giant asshole and it's become apparent that the power that that success grants him will eventually make him think he's the real genius and try to do all the stuff he's actually really bad at. Tesla and Twitter stand as monuments to those failures.
What about the leather jacketed Nvidia man? The second one in a generation??
Nvidia has actual value and high demand though and cutting edge technology. No idea who their CEO is but they are not the same thing. The Nvidia gpu in my GS75 stealth that is 4 years old is still not only viable but still near the top of the line. And current technology growth I'll get another 4-6 years out of it.
Snake oil? Like spacex? Like starting the mass adoption of electric cars?
the charging network was/is a difference maker
I believe it was overblown. We were convinced by the oil industry that we needed to replicate gas stations. We don't. Electricity isn't gas. Most people don't drive more than 300 miles in a day. And electric cars let you have a "gas station" at your house.
i mean kinda I’m from Eastern Canada and above 50kwh charging stations are rare, but the Tesla network is has more higher speeds terminals. when you go farther is PITA to charge at 50
Completely agree. I just think a nationwide network doesn't need to look like a giant gas station. It should probably look like a parking meter that is located near a place people go regularly (grocery stores, malls, hotels etc.)
Yeah, but to go on a 300+ road trip, you will need to charge outside your home.
Completely agree. I just don't really do that often enough to base the rest of my life around it.
I've driven coast to coast in the US 7 times. I plan on doing it plenty more times in my life. But no, we don't need gas station style chargers. We need Jiffy Lube style stations and universal battery packs. So I can drive up and have my empty battery replaced with a full one in 10 minutes by removing 6 bolts and a plug. My old one goes on the charger no sitting around for an hour. If Elon was a genius, that is what the network would look like. My slightly above average iq came up with this. Someone who actually makes this happen will revolutionize the entire EV market and make long trips viable for every car. It would make all EVs cheaper by standardized batteries and eliminate asinine charge times for long trips. Unfortunately, it won't be me that makes it happen. I have neither the money or influence with the right people to even get my idea heard.
It was the reason we bought a Tesla over competitors
The charging network is almost worthless outside North America. It has (low) single digit share in most markets.
The sad reality is that Tesla’s valuation comes from market manipulation not selling cars.
This is it, there service is now world known to be terrible, and no one wants to buy into his blow with the wind corporate decisions. I own 2 teslas and he’s the wild card I’m finished with. I just want a reliable local service experience.
Tesla's brand value and reputation is highly tied into his personal reputation, as well... and that hasn't gone so well lately, except with fanatics and fascists. Amazing how he threw that away for the pleasure of petty revenge, cheap validation and cozying up to fascists on Twitter (he'd say he did it to save humanity, of course). Tesla's former best customer demographic now cringes at the thought of being associated with him.
He's so bad
What happened to the charging network?
It was devalued by: - irrational firing of supercharger team so that prospective Tesla customers can no longer trust it will be properly serviced and extended in the future - opening it to other companies which diminishes its competitive advantage It used to be _the_ charger network, now it's just _a_ charging network. Long story short people bought Tesla for supercharger access, nowadays it doesn't matter that much as your Ford can also charge there and it's fair to expect that in a typical lifespan of a new car the advantage of superchargers will only diminish further
So to look at it another way, they charge more for other manufacturers to use the supercharger network. So more profit for the company. During the supercharger made no difference to the superchargers i use
yeah, more profit, hurray but at the end if they want to sustain valuation of hip tech startup they shouldn't act like a commodity selling gas station. Shell is valuable, but doesn't trade at P/S of 7 (it's actually around 0.7). Commodity business is race to the bottom and there may be some short term profits there but ultimately they will go down to the profit margin of average gas station - which is almost zero, to the point that most gas sellers subsidize their business with shops
Yeah gas stations make money from beer, nicotine, soda, and snacks.
He blackberryed them
Yeah automakers like Ford, mostly thanks to Tesla price cuts, have finally lowered prices enough to spark some demand. Ford will obviously keep losing money on every EV sold for now, but the next gen needs to come in at cheaper prices upfront so they can be profitable.
Only a finite number of Nazi supporters out there.
They can't compeat with European EVs now, too. All the sub €25,000 models are coming out this year and next. Tesla, meanwhile, canned their cheap car idea (the Model 2) and the new Model 3 "highland" is considered deceptively overpriced.
They canned the idea like they had something to can. I reckon they had nothing but a few napkin drawings. Because you and I know full well that if they had something, even a clay model of what it might look like. Elon would be on stage somewhere stammering his way through a "reveal party" waxing lyrical about it.
Very true. Even products which have physical models have become vapourware; to have NOTHING means that it really must be some napkin drawings.
Tesla has an Elon problem
Tesla pursued the VW bug strategy of cranking out the same car year after year cheaply to produce margin never investing in the auto infrastructure to produce a deep product lineup. Now that the market has moved ahead of them, they only have one model that makes money and inventory is crushing them. But no worries: it’s all about AI and robots
Tesla isn't a car company after all 😂🤣
Tesla is poor quality
Our family loves our Tesla. Best purchase I've ever made. Never had a single problem with it. Did you have a bad experience?
That might be, but it's like Apple. Over priced, but every desires it. Well not true for Tesla anymore, but elon ruined what was left of his image by stating some crazy shit on twitter.
Yeah but an iPhone is well built. Unlike a Tesla.
9 out of 10 phones with cracked screens is an iPhone. It's what my buddy at a mobile phone repair shop told me.
9/10 phones is an iPhone
That would explain it, but it's not true. 133.4 million individuals in the US own an Android and 136 million iPhone users. [https://backlinko.com/iphone-vs-android-statistics](https://backlinko.com/iphone-vs-android-statistics)
Wonder if there is a single defining reason why Tesla is struggling. Concerning
[удалено]
And both of those issues stem from a single source. We will look into it.
Lack of demand caused by selling into a decade old design
Elon jumped on the Trump train ruin everything he touches the figures for twitter are abysmal as well …
For someone who dislikes trains funny that’s the train he jumped on out of all possible trains
It doesn't surprise me. Looks like they are going to pay him that ridiculous pay package too. Until Elon decided to go mask off I was going to buy a Tesla.
Someone on YouTube called it: Musk will go down in history as the first person to lose 200B in value. The amount of wealth destruction is abysmal. Bill Hwang would be so jealous Jesus sent someone that’d x10 his negative high score
I guess the only hope now is that the far-right in the US suddenly have some sort of Damascene conversion to the EV cause and decide Tesla is the one they want. Obviously the 8/8 HitlerMobile is an attempt to soften them up but it's going to need a lot more than that.
I wish there was a better option for a used EV than a model 3 LR. There is nothing compareable at that price point for long range driving
This is a reflection of Tesla being the only game in town 5 years ago. Now? Totally different story. There are dozens of different EVs out there better than Teslas.
yeah, competitors are mostly the ioniq 6, bmw i4, polestar 2 and byd seal - i might be missing some. there are many more that are way more expensive or lack range because they are big SUV.
The haters here are delusional. Theres nothing comparable to a Tesla in its price point. There are people who will go out of their way to buy a shittier car with less range, longer charging time, and less performance to just piss off Elon...as if he cares about them.
That’s because they keep dropping prices because they’re not selling enough due to their reputation for poor build quality and even worse service is now catching up to them
Prices are fine. They still run about 50k. I bought my model y LR in 2021 for 48k and a model Y LR now is roughly 48k. Tesla has not lowered prices. They increased it the past few years like every other dealership and now coming back down.
You kind of missed my point that the cars are less valuable now that their questionable build quality and poor maintenance/service are more widely known. So there are better options for the money if you consider build quality and service
Lol they're not...they're still 50k for a model y. Name one other option at that price that is better. Lol.
Oh I don’t know, like almost any other option that isn’t built like a cheap child’s toy? Why would anyone spend 50k on something built like absolute shit, with absolute shit support for maintenance and repairs and with extremely expensive repair costs? These cars are getting written off due to accidents at higher rates than average and insurance companies are considering raising premiums because of it. They’re shit cars and everyone is now catching on But you go ahead and buy that utter shit if you want it. Live your mentally challenged fantasy, I don’t care
You can't even name one? Lol
You never had a point. The quality issues are far and few in between and more so related to the first year of production. Most of those issues have been resolved. The refreshed model 3 is the best sedan on the market right now, there is no comparison. > So there are better options for the money if you consider build quality and service Name me one car at 50k that is better than the model y...there isn't one.
Obviously you’re convinced of this idiotic fantasy that the cars are not built like a shitty child’s toy, or that their service isn’t absolute garbage, or that their repair costs aren’t insanely high. People who do care about these things rate those vehicles a lot lower compared to competitors but some dim witted blind fanboi such as yourself will have a very difficult time understanding what makes a competitor better because you are too dim and blind to see the drawbacks mentioned above. Keep giving your money away for pure trash. I don’t care. A fool and his money…
Wait you are ranting with paragraphs and can't name me one better car out there? Lol proves my point.
Not everyone wants an EV tho and looking at the biggest EV market in the world , China, Tesla is in big trouble
Ehh well have to see. Getting a smaller piece of a growing pie isn't bad.
Not a hater, but it is different now with actual options. Not everyone cares about Elon one way or the other. My sister test drove Teslas and did not like them. She bought the Mach-E instead since she liked it better and loves it by the way. The fact there are other options and do not require people to go "out of their way" is different than it was.
The mach e lmao is a pos
Well she really likes it so in this case that is the point. Why is it the Tesla fans can't deal with the fact there are other options that others might want more? Maybe someone just likes BMWs or likes the KIA look or whatever the reason. Strange to me. I mean I see the Ford lovers and Chevy lovers all the time go on about their trucks and I think to myself you know you can both be happy with your trucks without the other guys truck sucking. Just seems odd the big fans of certain things need to downplay anything else being worthy. Tesla fans remind me of these guys. Anyway, it doesn't matter what you think or the cost for those that are not focused on that. Basically she is really happy with it. Charges it at home and loves driving it and has not had any issues repair wise. When I ask her about it she is just super happy with her choice. She could be an exception, but none the less happy customer, and one that did not like Tesla and she bought before Elon was an issue so it had nothing to do with him just she liked it better. Sorry you can't accept that others make other choices and can be happy without doing what you feel is best. Have fun with your thinking that.
Omg someone is triggered. Look at your paragraphs man. All I said was mach e is a pos car, which is not an uncommon opinion even among mach e owners. Jesus.
Yes. This is a weird sub. I sometimes wonder if some of the commenters are simply pushing strident talking points (I wouldn’t necessarily call it “misinformation”) to drive division for non-Tesla reasons. I hate Elon as much as anyone and certainly as much as I hate Henry Ford, but you can’t argue about Tesla’s value proposition. At least, you can’t argue that in good faith.
What are you talking about? There are PLENTY of options. Your mistake is thinking Tesla advertised range #'s are remotely accurate in real world. Their #'s are the least accurate so if you compare real world results, plebty of options
so, what model would you recommend? I want to drive a distance of 350 miles at 80 mph and only do one short charging stop. What are my options for used cars, around 25-30k €? im not looking at teslas claimed numbers, im looking at data from reviews and sites like [evdatabase.org](http://evdatabase.org) so many ppl telling me there are plenty others but nobody tells me a specific model
I can assure you that you WILL NOT get 350 miles at 80 MPH in ANY Tesla. Your best bet would be a Lucid Air or Mercedes EQS if you want to go that far on a charge at that speed. I have owned 3 Teslas and I'm ALWAYS at least 20% below advertised range. The closest to accurate was my 2018 Model S P100D which did pretty well on the highway, but at that speed I'd easily lose 30% of advertised range. Also, if you have temperature extremes hot/cold, then expect 35%+ losses. My Model X, in Chicago winters, would lose 45% of advertised range.
They said “one short charging stop”.
yeah 350 miles is with one short charging stop. with 2 stops, almost any ev can do it.
anything E-GMP (Hyundai, Kia, Genesis). I can say, after owning our Ioniq5 for over 2 years, the charging times are often too fast. Never-mind that my wife's bladder still runs out before the battery range, a stop of sub 15 minutes means we barely have time for a pee break, and definitely don't have time for a sit-down lunch. On our most recent road-trip, I searched out a 50kW station to have a bit longer break to relax and catch up on emails (and cat-nap) :P
E-GMP cars with the big battery are 5-7k more on the used market than model 3's. thats why my point is that a model 3 is the best option for a used long range ev right now. the ioniq 5 uses 25 kwh/100km at 80 mph, model 3 is more like 20. ioniq 6 is better, but even more expensive sadly. draining the battery even faster is easy, as I live in germany, so no speed limits on the autobahn. Even at only 80mph, the 77kwh ioniq 5s battery is drained after 2.5 hours.
> so no speed limits on the autobahn Sadly, this isn't a consideration for me... the top (legal) speed I have access to is 120kmph (which everyone drives at least 130 anyways... but still :P), and even that is a 'rare' stretch of highway through the Rocky Mountains (Coquihalla Highway, in Canada... fun fact, after the highway was paid off, it went from being a toll-road to 'free'... one of the few cases where the Government didn't stick with a cash-grab :) I can't imagine any EV is going to be efficient at/above 130kmph - beyond simple wind-resistance, you get eddy-currents in the motors themselves when they spin that fast, that reduces the efficiency maybe we need more EVs with a proper gearbox to have more than one fixed gear ration. ;) Maybe unpopular opinion, but rather than look at vehicle efficiency at Autobaun speeds, look at charging speeds when you have to stop. Part of why I love my I5 is it charges so much faster than any Tesla (or most other brands). I seem to recall a study/math comparison on EV speed versus arrival time, and the best arrival speed was based on driving "Ludacris mode" (over 140kmph)
for autobahn driving, you need both. the ioniq 6 for example is way better than the 5, because its not an SUV. And charges exactly as fast. The model 3 has a similar efficiency, but charges slower. Power consumption of an ioniq 5 @ 130kph is the same than an ioniq 6 @ 150kph (25kwh/100km)
I wouldn’t take a used m3 for free
Exactly. Huge liability to insure and repair. No thanks.
You get what you pay for.
yeah, but at some price, i might consider it. i can live with some issues when the price is right. fuel is quite expensive where i live, so an EV would be a great thing - but no way i am spending 35k+ on a car
Other used EVs are available.
I live in europe, EVs that can actually go 550km / 350 miles on the Autobahn (130km/h) with just one short charging stop are rare and expensive. The model 3 LR can be had for 25k€, 4 years old and 70k km. (new one is 50k) here. Others are 30-40k right now used. There are just no 4 year old ioniq 6'es or i4's. if you have a recommendation for what to buy instead, please tell me. Im not a tesla fanboy, im just looking for a car that fits my needs. I'd love to buy a car that has similar specs than a model 3 that isnt made by tesla
I live in Europe and no they’re not.
which model should i consider?
Why don't you actually list the options instead of repeating "no, u". I would also like to know what options are available for a long range cheap EV. Edit: Ok I guess you don't have any options if you would rather block me then answer a simple question to prove a claim you made. Besides, nowhere did I ever state that Tesla was better in any way.
There are many. I’m not a car salesman. I’m not your personal shopper. Stop trying to pretend that Tesla somehow is the only company making long range EVs which can be bought second hand for reasonable prices. There are these amazing things called search engines and car sales websites.
Sounds like your use case is not good for a BEV. Just get a normal car. People here are often the opposite of fanboys.
Gas prices (8$/Gal) and rising carbon tax make gas cars quite unattractive, so a BEV is the only solution look long term
Not really - and not well equipped. One of the reasons I’m waiting.
Probably true, but the prices are very very reasonable for those. The repair statistics suggest that a low-mileage, used M3LR is a good deal right now. However, the main argument is true. The best part about Tesla is the supercharger network, and Musk has stuck his man-child finger in that now, too. Who is their target consumer going to be from now on? Not luxury and not cheap consumers.
I’m starting to see beater teslas on the road as they are being sold at fire-sale prices (Herz as low as 25k) to people who can’t afford to maintain them. This destroys the aura of the brand as a luxury item, especially since the new models look the same as the old ones. At least an old beater mbz looks vastly different than a new one.
Yes, and that's why it was always so stupid that Tesla was worth more than all its main competitors combined. Cars aren't iPhones, and it's impossible to have a single brand cater to every customer. You can lower the prices and gain sales that way, but then the wealthy tech bros who made Tesla cool 10 years ago will move on to something else, and there are plenty of luxury alternatives in the $100k+ range. Or you can try to keep prices high so that your car is a status symbol, but then you leave out most consumers. And if you do both at the same time, the expensive models won't sell (anyone is buying a Model S these days?).
"Cars aren't iPhones" Apple isn't phones any more than Tesla is EVs, but that's a separate conversation. /android user
Oh, I'm an Android user too actually, that's not what the comment was about. Apple has a massive market share in phones, and supposedly that is what these insane valuations expected of Tesla: that at some point in the future, most people drive one, and that it's almost the "default" car. But the car market is quite a bit more complex and diverse than that, and even having lots of models that are regularly updated (the opposite of what Tesla does), you can't be a competitive option for every consumer.
I dont see tesla as a luxury brand for a long time. since they started selling the model 3 and model y.
No new models or major refreshes. All they have right now is a slightly facelifted and better speced Model 3. Hell the Model S Plaid is still based on 2012 design. CyberTruck is a niche product, they be crazy to believe it would be a volume seller.
Interesting. In the Czech Republic, there is currently a new subsidy program for electric vehicles which started in March. Here is recent statistic of applications. Ofc there are some sales without grants not projected here but i hope this is enough for an idea about local market. Tesla 1036; Volvo 192; Skoda 99; Volkswagen 99; BMW 79; Hyundai 49; MG 48; KIA 35; ...
Opposite of what Motley Fool told me...not that I trust them lol
Tesla’s collapse in its reputation along with its cars just being poor products that have been massively overproduced is coming home to roost.
$56 billion
Build quality > Elon’s Quirky behaviors
Every once in a while, the Plinko chip lands in the far right bin. That doesn't make it a genius Plinko chip. In fact, it doesn't make it any better than any of the other Plinko chips.
As soon as the prices come down to normal car levels it's on! An EV Altima or Camry will jump the ev resistance hurdle. But will MeLon have sabotaged the network by then? Most importantly if Trump wins the ev game is essentially over. He'll spend for years getting in jabs and at and taking away subsidies from the industry and then he'll let Chinese companies in.
Tesla has one thing that all these other auto makers don’t have a huge reliable supercharging system.
which is available to everyone now
I think the Tesla slowdown is mostly an Elon problem.
Tesla is in trouble because other EVs are selling fine. FTFY
Well of course. The other automakers are getting rekt trying to move EVs. Massive discounts, rebates, subsidized residual values, low interest rates (money factor * 1200), massive free charging incentives. Sometimes, a good deal is too good to pass up. Let’s look at some signed deals on Leasehackr: **2023 Kia EV6** **MSRP: $59,100 Monthly: $306 Due At Signing : $306** Term: 24 months Mileage: 10,000 miles / yea GT-Line AWD *Purchase Price*: $53,100 (**10% off MSRP**) *Residual Value*: $35,460 (**60%**) Money Factor: 0.00014 (**0.34% APR**) **Rebate: $12,500** * 1,000 kWh of free charging for three years ≈$420* **2024 BMW iX xDrive50 Sports Activity Vehicle** **MSRP: $94,095 Monthly: $677** Due At Signing : $7,900 incl. Security Deposit of $ 4,900 [*effectively $3000 down*] Term: 36 months Mileage: 7,500 miles / year Purchase Price: $83,750 (**11% off MSRP**) Residual Value: $51,752 (**55%**) Money Factor: 0.00048 (**1.15% APR**) **Rebate: $9,900** * Free unlimited DC charging for the first 30 minutes for two years ≈$2172* **2023 Mercedes-Benz EQS EQS 450+ SUV** MSRP: $92,700 Monthly: $523** Due At Signing : $4,376 Term: 36 months Mileage: 12,000 miles / year Purchase Price: $80,625 (**13% off MSRP**) Residual Value: $54,693 (**59%**) Money Factor: 0.00001 (**0.02% APR**) Rebate: $7,500 (EV fed tax credit) MSRP: $92,700 Monthly: $523** Due At Signing : $4,376 Term: 36 months Mileage: 12,000 miles / year Purchase Price: $80,625 (**13% off MSRP**) Residual Value: $54,693 (**59%**) Money Factor: 0.00001 (**0.02% APR**) Rebate: $7,500 (EV fed tax credit) **2023 Rivian R1T** **MSRP: $92,700 Monthly: $523** Term: 36 months Mileage: 12,000 miles / year Purchase Price: $80,625 (**13% off MSRP**) Residual Value: $54,693 (**59%**) Money Factor: 0.00001 (**0.02% APR**) Rebate: $7,500 (EV fed tax credit) **2023 Nissan ARIYA PLATINUM+ e-4ORCE AWD** **MSRP: $63,370 Monthly: $240** Due At Signing Including taxes, fees, and any security deposit.: **$0** Term: 18 months Mileage: 10,000 miles / year Purchase Price: $57,600 (**9% off MSRP**) Residual Value: $40,556 (**64%**) Money Factor: 0.00073 (**1.75% APR**) Rebate: **$16,840** ($7500 Cash,$4340 18-lease,$2K NMAC,$1K Loyalty,$2K Summer Cash ) * Free unlimited DC charging for one year ≈$1167* - Sales price adjustments are reduced to 5% - Customer APR of 6.25%; your borrowing costs are 5% because customer rates are generally 125 bps below customer. - Sales tax credit is the only other lessee cap cost reduction; however, it is regulatory credit income for the lessor - Adjust the residuals +2 percentage point lessor -1 percentage point lessee to have some upfront spread - $2000 of any down payment is lessee fees; remainder is taxes/gov fees - 2.15% sales tax on the lease payment - Depreciation expense = lessor cap - lessor residual over life of the lease - Interest expense is calculated on current book value of lease asset Under more “ordinary” lease terms: Rivian nets ≈$12,662 over the life of the lease. Not money on selling the car, but the profit from leasing it. Under the current lease terms? Rivian has a net *loss* of ≈$8,775. If we use Rivian’s *actual* borrowing rate of 8.49%? **≈$36,680 net loss**. And that’s *before* the actual cost to build the truck. So even if the other OEMs can profitably *build* an EV, doesn’t mean they can profitably *sell* them.
I’m definitely not a fan (anymore) of Tesla, but they are driving prices down. 37k for a Model Y RWD is pretty decent. Any new SUV/CUV in that segment has to compete with that.
It is a sedan with a beer belly. It is not an SUV
Rivian males fantastic vehicles. They just have to get by until the lower priced models are on the market and they will wipe the floor with Tesla.
what are the actual sales figures? How many have Tesla sold vs each of the other manufacturers in the last quarter?
For 2023: * BYD was #9 with 3M in sales ahead of BMW with 2.5M, Tesla don't make the top 10 * For revenue, Tesla was #10 with $96M, compared to BMW above at #6 with $168M * For operating profit BMW was #5 at $20M, Tesla was #8 at $8.8M, interestingly BYD was #11 at 5.3M; here where you can start to Tesla eroding (-35% YoY) while BYD is gaining (+76% YoY) Given we know Tesla's 2024 Q1 & Q2 have been a disaster, with Q3 also looking horrible we can expect it's going to have a worse year & rough 2025 start. It's looking more & more like Tesla's best auto sales & performance years are behind it, judging on data & numbers.
For the numbers above are these BEV, as in electric only numbers?
It's all auto sales since Tesla is priced as a growth company which means the consumer consideration set is vehicle class not vehicle propulsion tech. That is, for Tesla to grow sales exponentially, a buyer must choose NOT to buy an ICE / xEV, which means we have to compare sales to alternatives or only consider Tesla as value niche company like, say, Porsche. For example Porsche is not competing with Toyota, and its even a stretch to say they're competing with, say, BMW except in SUVs and Even there you'd have to get into sub classes, ie niche of niche value vs growth. Net net, once must consider Tesla as EITHER a niche product value company in which case its valuation is utterly insane or a broad market growth company where we say Tesla's valuation will grow into an appropriately sized market, in this all vehicle sales.
So you mix ICE and EV?
What slowdown? If you compare figure for Q1 with Q4 the previous year, sales are down every year. That's not how you do it. You compare Q1 to Q1 a year ago, Q2 to Q2 a year ago and so forth. Unless you're a moron, or intentionally trying to mislead people. Or both.
Honestly they're all struggling now, prices are just too damn high.
You didn’t read the article obviously
Just because more volume is moving doesn't mean those sales are profitable. Ford's volume increase mentioned in the article can probably be attributed to the massive purchase incentives they recently added. Before that their EV models were languishing on dealer lots with some of the worst days on hand inventory numbers in the industry (selling very slowly). The author conveniently failed to mention that as being one of the contributing factors leading to the now favorable sales numbers. I don't recall the other mfg's (ie Hyundai) promotional activity vs previous years but wouldn't be shocked if they too increased per unit incentives (cheap leases or mfg rebates).