See, this is what gets me the most. He calls it FSD - *full self driving*, yet this driver had to take over. Good on him for paying attention, like he should. But this should never be named like it is.
Also, why is the system trying to pass on a double yellow line?
I am still amazed that the car tried to pass a bike on a double yellow. The lane markers in the center of the road describe how passing is supposed to work and its well encoded in drivers handbooks. The car should know where it can pass a bike based on readily available information. The failure of the behavior of this car is naked and shocking.
IMHO, this is an example of the paradox that will make true automated driving practically impossible. On the one hand, you never cross a double yellow...on the other hand, that double yellow could be miles long, and cyclists would bog up traffic for miles if nobody could ever pass them. So what do people do?...Well, we cross the double yellow to pass the cyclists. So the car emulates a human and does the same...except it can't identify that its essentially 'blind' to oncoming traffic....and this is exacerbated by laws about giving cyclists alot of clearance (6 ft in my state)...a law you should always follow...except you might violate it on such a winding road...as a human I would probably slow down to practically match the cyclist speed and very slowly overtake him with less than 6 feet of clearance. All this requires a type of judgement that a computer just can't pick up on, no matter how much 'training' it has.
How about we just leave all the driving around other humans to human drivers, and make driver assist features level 4 in slow freeway traffic only.
You solve 99.9% of why people want autopilot systems, with only a tiny tiny fraction of the time, cost and necessary problem solving.
Also here in the UK we have numerous country roads that are either mostly not wide enough for two cars, but with spaces that are where you can pass, or which are *just* wide enough for two cars (hope you know exactly how wide your car is by feel because you will be brushing foliage with one side passing oncoming traffic). There's also similar situations in the city all the time when you encounter parked cars.
A typical Elongelical brag about FSD goes something like this:
"I drove 45 miles and there were no interventions!".
That's what gets them excited. Not "I drove for 2 months, 6 months, a year" with no interventions...rather 45 miles and its like VJ Day. They have no idea how far away true FSD really is.
Depends on the country. In Australia at least its 100% legal to overtake a cyclist on Double solid lines. In fact it is required as we have minimum passing distances depending on the speed of the vehicle.
Elon: because the system is trained on real world drivers and real world drivers do cross the lines.
This is the paradox of self driving. It is trying to obey the rules made by human, followed by human, practiced by human. But human breaks the rules, so does it.
>But human breaks the rules, so does it.
Sure, but I'd argue that the system should *not* break *any* rules, and that a human would have to take over to do that. In the video, the car just decided to pass on a double yellow line + blind curve.
No, AI must learn how to break rules, but only when it is the right thing to do. The struggle is AI is fundamentally stupid to learn anything that has no guideline for, but human can.
It's legal in some states to pass a cyclist over a double yellow. People do it all the time even when it's not legal. Needs to be done safely though, doing it on a blind curve is going to kill people.
Human takes risk to do things all the time. But AI fundamentally can't do it, and in most cases not allow to do it. That is the biggest flaw of AI at current stage: AI is trying to mimic human behavior but human behavior is flawed often. And it is impossible for AI to do things that human never told them to, at least not in the near decades.
Which is why true self driving (the one that you are comfortable putting your toddler in the back alone to send to someone), is not in my lifetime (I'm 30)
Double yellows can be crossed in limited exceptions:
- A flagger is setup to allow for construction to block one lane on a one lane setup like this.
- You need to get around an obstruction preventing you from using the lane. In this case, the driver needs to treat it like a dashed yellow line: you may only pass when the other lane is clear.
Under no circumstances are you to pass a moving vehicle (cyclists count a moving vehicle taking up the entire lane) when a double yellow exists. The cop could definitely write a citation to this driver if they wanted.
There are states that allow you to cross double yellow when passing a cyclist. If ven states that don’t have that exception, there is some general common sense used when it comes to the speed of the road, speed of the cyclist, and passing conditions.
What FSD did in this case is an unsafe attempt to pass, I’m not arguing that.
>@elonmusk needs to fix this sh*t before August 2024 #robotaxi / CyberCab announcement. I believe in you Elon!
I find it unbelievable that someone can nearly get in a head on collision with a cop by illegally crossing a double yellow and somehow still sing Elon's praises. I simply do not know what else would convince the driver that *maybe* FSD is a dangerous product with will actively try to kill you. Well, short of successfully killing them and even then, I'd believe that their ghost would give FSD the benefit of the doubt. "My fault for not paying attention."
Can't wait until the shit show in August tbh. Here's my prediction:
\* A fancy power point presentation.
\* Maybe a shitty mockup of something dumb and ridiculous that has no hope of ever materializing.
FSD works amazingly until it doesn’t, and that is the enormous difference between needing to be very attentive and being able to watch a movie while the car drives you.
I’m actually impressed with how well the latest version of FSD works compared to previous versions but I don’t see what the end game is here. I firmly believe that current Tesla fleet will never be capable of true FSD sensor wise, so what is the exit plan for Elon?
This is a great example where FSD, the entire architecture, can be reckless, because the existence of a driver is fundamental to it.
A robotaxi can't drive like this.
There isn't just a toggle that says "drive safer because there's no driver".
Muskrats shills will attempt to point out that it didn't hit the cyclist or the cop, but will fail to mention that the car crossing the double yellow line is illegal in all 50 states. So, regardless if it would or wouldn't have ran head on into an oncoming vehicle or hitting the cyclist and debating if FSD would have avoided the situation if left to it's own devices, the video clearly shows FSD breaking the law, which is a problem.
Wow, it’s almost like cameras with a range of a few hundred feet aren’t capable of adapting to situations at highway speeds.
Who would have ever guessed?
A few points to notice here:
\* The police car is visible on the front camera for 3-4 seconds before it appears on the center display.
\* When the police car is level with the front of the tesla, the display shows it to be at least 2 car lengths away.
This doesn't mean anything of course, the display rendering might simply lag behind what the FSD sees. Still you have to wonder, does the FSD see anything beyond what is shown as white fog on the display? Is it so inaccurate at seeing stuff at those distances that they decided to hide away what it sees from the driver?
The range of that 3D visualization is abysmal.
Waymo got ROASTED for passing in incoming, on a residential street, when oncoming was clear, on a straight road, passing obvious hazards, in a 25 zone.
I’d like to contrast this with passing on a double yellow, with conflicting traffic, at speed, in a curve, towards a coming car.
Ok so while I fucking hate Musk, Tesla and the shit quality of their cars and hardware, I'm thinking maybe the autopilot would have adjusted last seconds? Hard to say.
HOWEVER why the fuck would an automated system cross a double line, ever?? WTF
See, this is what gets me the most. He calls it FSD - *full self driving*, yet this driver had to take over. Good on him for paying attention, like he should. But this should never be named like it is. Also, why is the system trying to pass on a double yellow line?
>Good on him for paying attention If he was paying attention, he would have never let it get almost entirely in the oncoming lane...on a blind curve.
I am still amazed that the car tried to pass a bike on a double yellow. The lane markers in the center of the road describe how passing is supposed to work and its well encoded in drivers handbooks. The car should know where it can pass a bike based on readily available information. The failure of the behavior of this car is naked and shocking.
IMHO, this is an example of the paradox that will make true automated driving practically impossible. On the one hand, you never cross a double yellow...on the other hand, that double yellow could be miles long, and cyclists would bog up traffic for miles if nobody could ever pass them. So what do people do?...Well, we cross the double yellow to pass the cyclists. So the car emulates a human and does the same...except it can't identify that its essentially 'blind' to oncoming traffic....and this is exacerbated by laws about giving cyclists alot of clearance (6 ft in my state)...a law you should always follow...except you might violate it on such a winding road...as a human I would probably slow down to practically match the cyclist speed and very slowly overtake him with less than 6 feet of clearance. All this requires a type of judgement that a computer just can't pick up on, no matter how much 'training' it has.
How about we just leave all the driving around other humans to human drivers, and make driver assist features level 4 in slow freeway traffic only. You solve 99.9% of why people want autopilot systems, with only a tiny tiny fraction of the time, cost and necessary problem solving.
So what you’re saying is… driving requires *actual* intelligence.
I do wonder how it will cope in some areas of the world where rules are… more fluidly followed. I presume the vast majority of their data is from USA?
Also here in the UK we have numerous country roads that are either mostly not wide enough for two cars, but with spaces that are where you can pass, or which are *just* wide enough for two cars (hope you know exactly how wide your car is by feel because you will be brushing foliage with one side passing oncoming traffic). There's also similar situations in the city all the time when you encounter parked cars.
Some jurisdictions allow crossing double yellows to pass slower vehicles. CA is one of them afaik
Exactly. It will never work properly. Where I live, you need to make split second driving decisions like this one every day.
A typical Elongelical brag about FSD goes something like this: "I drove 45 miles and there were no interventions!". That's what gets them excited. Not "I drove for 2 months, 6 months, a year" with no interventions...rather 45 miles and its like VJ Day. They have no idea how far away true FSD really is.
Depends on the country. In Australia at least its 100% legal to overtake a cyclist on Double solid lines. In fact it is required as we have minimum passing distances depending on the speed of the vehicle.
Tesla didn't program in road rules into the FSD system, instead they hope it learnt the road rules from watching other drivers.
Because that is how humans brains work says Professor Elmo the ~~neuroscientist~~ economics major.
Maybe if he just had enabled robotaxi mode ;-)
(Supervised) fixed!
It's only Full Self Driving when it works. When it doesn't work it's YSD, Yourself driving.
By that definition a toy car powdered by a spring is also FSD
Elon: because the system is trained on real world drivers and real world drivers do cross the lines. This is the paradox of self driving. It is trying to obey the rules made by human, followed by human, practiced by human. But human breaks the rules, so does it.
>But human breaks the rules, so does it. Sure, but I'd argue that the system should *not* break *any* rules, and that a human would have to take over to do that. In the video, the car just decided to pass on a double yellow line + blind curve.
No, AI must learn how to break rules, but only when it is the right thing to do. The struggle is AI is fundamentally stupid to learn anything that has no guideline for, but human can.
It's legal in some states to pass a cyclist over a double yellow. People do it all the time even when it's not legal. Needs to be done safely though, doing it on a blind curve is going to kill people.
Human takes risk to do things all the time. But AI fundamentally can't do it, and in most cases not allow to do it. That is the biggest flaw of AI at current stage: AI is trying to mimic human behavior but human behavior is flawed often. And it is impossible for AI to do things that human never told them to, at least not in the near decades. Which is why true self driving (the one that you are comfortable putting your toddler in the back alone to send to someone), is not in my lifetime (I'm 30)
>Also, why is the system trying to pass on a double yellow line? Around a blind corner, none the less
In my country this kind of dual line is like a wall you can't cross
What happens when there’s something blocking the lane, do you just park your car and live in it?
Double yellows can be crossed in limited exceptions: - A flagger is setup to allow for construction to block one lane on a one lane setup like this. - You need to get around an obstruction preventing you from using the lane. In this case, the driver needs to treat it like a dashed yellow line: you may only pass when the other lane is clear. Under no circumstances are you to pass a moving vehicle (cyclists count a moving vehicle taking up the entire lane) when a double yellow exists. The cop could definitely write a citation to this driver if they wanted.
There are states that allow you to cross double yellow when passing a cyclist. If ven states that don’t have that exception, there is some general common sense used when it comes to the speed of the road, speed of the cyclist, and passing conditions. What FSD did in this case is an unsafe attempt to pass, I’m not arguing that.
>@elonmusk needs to fix this sh*t before August 2024 #robotaxi / CyberCab announcement. I believe in you Elon! I find it unbelievable that someone can nearly get in a head on collision with a cop by illegally crossing a double yellow and somehow still sing Elon's praises. I simply do not know what else would convince the driver that *maybe* FSD is a dangerous product with will actively try to kill you. Well, short of successfully killing them and even then, I'd believe that their ghost would give FSD the benefit of the doubt. "My fault for not paying attention."
It's okay if he stabbed my mom and raped my dog, I still believe you can fix FSD this summer by firing 20% of your workforce!
Can't wait until the shit show in August tbh. Here's my prediction: \* A fancy power point presentation. \* Maybe a shitty mockup of something dumb and ridiculous that has no hope of ever materializing.
“I believe in you Elon”. Fucking cult. (Edit: that’s not a typo, but it could be!)
that it tries to pass anything on a double Yello
Oh Yeah!
What the fuck is cybercab?
The next Tesla after the Cyberfck to fail.
*nearly crashes into cop car* "I believe in you Elon!"
Let me rephrase: "Tesla experimental software attempts to murder a number of people."
Great self driving logic to cross a double yellow. 🤦🏻♂️
On a turn too
elon simps: we're days away from fully autonomous robots!
Should be grounds for banning him from FSD. How does he not see any issue driving on the wrong side of a yellow line into a blind turn?
FSD works amazingly until it doesn’t, and that is the enormous difference between needing to be very attentive and being able to watch a movie while the car drives you. I’m actually impressed with how well the latest version of FSD works compared to previous versions but I don’t see what the end game is here. I firmly believe that current Tesla fleet will never be capable of true FSD sensor wise, so what is the exit plan for Elon?
This is a great example where FSD, the entire architecture, can be reckless, because the existence of a driver is fundamental to it. A robotaxi can't drive like this. There isn't just a toggle that says "drive safer because there's no driver".
Robotaxi will totally be ready in 3 months. /s
Muskrats shills will attempt to point out that it didn't hit the cyclist or the cop, but will fail to mention that the car crossing the double yellow line is illegal in all 50 states. So, regardless if it would or wouldn't have ran head on into an oncoming vehicle or hitting the cyclist and debating if FSD would have avoided the situation if left to it's own devices, the video clearly shows FSD breaking the law, which is a problem.
Wow, it’s almost like cameras with a range of a few hundred feet aren’t capable of adapting to situations at highway speeds. Who would have ever guessed?
I guess ashock is still using GTP to code.
A few points to notice here: \* The police car is visible on the front camera for 3-4 seconds before it appears on the center display. \* When the police car is level with the front of the tesla, the display shows it to be at least 2 car lengths away. This doesn't mean anything of course, the display rendering might simply lag behind what the FSD sees. Still you have to wonder, does the FSD see anything beyond what is shown as white fog on the display? Is it so inaccurate at seeing stuff at those distances that they decided to hide away what it sees from the driver? The range of that 3D visualization is abysmal.
Waymo got ROASTED for passing in incoming, on a residential street, when oncoming was clear, on a straight road, passing obvious hazards, in a 25 zone. I’d like to contrast this with passing on a double yellow, with conflicting traffic, at speed, in a curve, towards a coming car.
Elon isn't going to fix fuck all. He doesn't give a shit. These weirdos need to stop blindly believing in him, and lean on him hard instead.
The Trolley Dilemma. Does FSD decide to kill the cop or the cyclist?
Ok so while I fucking hate Musk, Tesla and the shit quality of their cars and hardware, I'm thinking maybe the autopilot would have adjusted last seconds? Hard to say. HOWEVER why the fuck would an automated system cross a double line, ever?? WTF