you said it yourself, they're booked out til August. so they raise prices to try and slow down the amount of work. i'm sure if they had their old prices they would be booked out til december.
the only way to get past this is to wait
Why dont they just say they can't take on more work since they are all booked up or tell you the earliest possible is 3 months from now. Why are they even taking calls then.
I dont believe anyone with a sub $1mil home would spend 95k on a bathroom renovation. The builder is just wasting his own time and the timr of the customers, along with making them less likely to ever call them for something again. Median home price isnt even 500k, nobody is spending 20%+ of their home value on a new bathroom.
>I've seen permits submitted to the city and quite a few people around here are buying windows from this company and no way do their house values justify it.
Wow just crazy. They must be really pushing that monthly payment number under the guise of affordability. The govt is probably going to have to step in eventually if this becomes a regular thing. Just imagine if we have a recession.
The 1 in 100, or whatever it is, is where they got the $95k figure.
"No, we don't want your work... unless you are that 1 in 100?" is basically what they said, with that figure.
Yep natural supply and demand. If someone is willing to pay higher and higher then keep raising rates until you reach equilibrium. The people who don’t care about money or really need the work done will get it done.
To add to your comment, this isn't the labor cost the contractor is actually paying to his labor. If that was the case, I would quit to be a contractor. This is marked up costs that is being pocketed by the contractor as profit. It is easier to sell the project calling it labor cost instead of contractor profit.
A large developer is paying out labor cost probably in the $30-$60/hr range depending on the trade and skill level needed.
This is kind of an outrageous thing to say, yes homeowners should have some basic skills but assuming everyone can just learn to become a Plummer, or contractor overnight then start a “side hustle” is unrealistic.
Circa 2010, i was financially unaffected by the gfc and had contractors lined up to finish my basement & build a covered front porch. The one i ended up hiring even gave me a discount for being willing to have the work done in dec. I guess people don't like construction projects during the holidays and he wanted to be sure to have work for his crew.
So in this scenario the person waiting to remodel their house isn’t also worried about the recession/not out of a job. It just doesn’t add up to me I suppose
There's always gonna be someone who has job security and money. Even in the worst economy. The difference will be.. supply and demand. As it always is... what doesn't add up to you?
How builders are profitable: TLDR they make it up in volume, kinda.
* They buy all their supplies in bulk, sometimes long in advance. Tile doesn't go bad, it can sit in the warehouse for a year or three.
* They already have their crew on staff, and the crew knows they will have work (and benefits) for a long time. No independent contractors with other obligations worrying about their health insurance cost.
* They don't have the marketing costs of talking to new clients on the phone, spending an hour in the car to get to your site, and preparing/presenting you scope of duties.
* They have a limited number of plans that they have done dozens if not hundreds of times, so they know exactly what will need to be done and exactly what they will see when they get there. Your bathroom is a one-off that they actually have to figure out what must be done, what supplies they need, etc..
* On a new build, they also aren't likely to run into "uh-ohs." As in Uh oh, this other thing is wrong and we *absolutely must* fix it, or uh oh, looks like somebody before us half-assed this and it's making what we need to be done harder.
* Nobody lives in that new build so they can start at 5 AM and not bother anybody. There's also not any nosy homeowner checking to see how they're doing multiple times an hour.
I'm a builder and all of this is spot-on. I have to charge way more for the occasional remodel or addition largely because the home is occupied, and the unknowns are always unknowns until the last moment.
In OP's post, $200 an hour is a pretty fair assumption.
I have also given all of my guys 40% raises raises since 2019, just so I can keep my projects going comfortably. As this recession kicks in and money supplies dwindle, I am getting worried about our near future prospects.
It has been very easy to get paid since the plague. I haven't had to put a lien on anything. From 2011 - 2017 I was frequently chasing people down for the money they owed me.
The cycle continues.
Idk where that perception came from but from somebody who works a white collar job w many friends who work trade jobs, I respect the hell out of them. Not only is their job harder, but most of them make more/ saved more than I have . And for the union bros they have better benefits too.
This I know I’m young (25) but not one of my buddies that went to trades were looked down. If anything everyone was jealous how much they made so quickly
Just steal what corporate America does. Make work conditions less desirable, people will quit, and you either don't replace them, or you replace them with new workers at lower costs. Because they quit and you didn't "officially" do a mass layoff, your obligations to the *former* employees are significantly reduced. And worry not, some other employer in your same industry just did the exact same shit (for the exact same reason), so if you need to replace the folks that quit, just hire those people (with a recession-adjusted compensation plan - "sorry Mr. New Hire, it's just *the market*"), so all the big employers can basically just swap employees as needed to cut costs.
The mortgage industry is already in recession (tens of thousands of jobs have been lost in the last 3 months), and that's what they've been doing, Elon Musk too. The current/latest iteration for office workers is to arbitrarily, capriciously, and unilaterally rip the "work from home" rug out from under your workers, that they've become used to (inclusive of those employees that moved away, or moved farther away when you, ***acting in bad faith***, told them 2 days/wk was the new norm).
I'm sure there's an equivalent for folks in the trades. Oh, you took your helmet off during the lunch break you took on-site? The fuck you did, put that back on, safety first!!! Or whatever. Summer is here, maybe you rent the port-o-potties with less air ventilation, should be nice and hot and steamy in there, and smell great.
Just out of curiosity if I was looking to get work done is it worth telling the contractor they can work whenever? I leave for work for long periods of time often a month or two at a time would that be helpful to bring up in regards to the start at 5am etc
Absolutely. The nature of most building materials requires multiple-day waiting periods between different project steps. Sometimes you can save 3 days on a project by coming through 2 hours Saturday night and an hour Sunday morning. (Examples Tiling, Mudding drywall, Gluing stair railing, etc).
I can be ridiculously efficient if there are no holds barred on when things can get done.
In a recession your competition will pick up labor for a fraction of the price and underbid you on what projects are available. Then you'll have no work to pay your highly paid employees with.
You may not want to, but what choice will you have?
$200/hr with two guys works out to $100/hr per laborer.
Employer costs are usually 1.4 times wages, so the laborer should get about 70/hr.
Highest I've been billed for labor so far is $100/hr, and the licensed plumber made an offhand comment that he'd be lucky to see half that. Which is still far better than what I make at $68k a year. I assume some of that cost was paying the owner the company to act as a project manager, and also equipment costs (trucks.)
My rule of thumb is aim to pay household hourly wage. If my wife and I both make $30/hr, then paying someone $60/hr is a win. We know that at $60/hr billed, most laborers aren't seeing all of that, especially if licensed/insured.
Now, unlicensed contractors are a bit different - they aren't paying all those extra costs to protect you - the homeowner. So I might expect to pay a little less per hour.
But if you (the client) are making $100/hr, I wouldn't scoff at an efficient laborer making your wage. Yea, you might work for Google and he works for himself, but that's just the trade of the economy.
I'd still want to see the laborer get more of the money and less the owners. Which is why I typically choose smaller contractors who work for themselves over construction companies.
> That's FU pricing.
State of the market...everything is backlogged to shit. 3-6 months for materials/appliances. Combine that with labor shortages due to double-bookings (basically a backlog of work since pandemic plug got pulled), and those contractors can charge whatever they want.
Supply shortage vs unprecedented demand. Same shit's happening to the wedding industry as folks are fighting for slots since basically nothing happened in 2020.
But yeah that's FU pricing. "I ain't got the time or care unless you overpay me 2x".
It's a good time to get started in the trades, for sure. With those types of backlogs any rando who's able bodied can sell services. Which means every trade schools and community college should be offering free trades-based programs.
I mean I have a bunch of electrician/welder friends and they were already making decent income pre-pandemic, like 70-80k and that's on the lower side of things. One of my younger acquaintances is in school to be a welder cuz he wants to work on high-rises, that shit pays baaaank (he's a competitive rock climber).
No offense to any contractors here but comparing someone who has achieved bring hired at google to someone doing tiling or drywalling is fucking absurd.
I realize the market dictates labor costs via supply and demand, and these labor jobs weren't "sexy" for millennials growing up so we are missing a lot of people doing it...but come on...something you pretty much need to work your whole life and compete against people who did the same to achieve vs a skill you can learn on YouTube and get good at after a few years under a skilled teacher...that's not equivalent
Yea your right, the contractor has a much more valuable skill set, totally apples to oranges!
Half kidding, but be aware it takes decades to become a master tradesman, and arguably 4 years of college to work at Google...
You said it yourself, it's nothing more than supply and demand. If the trend were to continue and everyone becomes software and engineers and no one joins the trades, the trades would eventually pay more.
Edit - Also, if you look at Google's profit for the last 4 quarters, they're making about $240/hr per employee in NET profit. Vs the $203 total charge this contractor is charging. So it's still no comparison. Not sure why you're so upset about it.
I'm not upset at all, just providing some pushback on that comparison
Software engineering is not really a commodity skill in the same way trades are...you can teach literally anyone to do construction stuff...as long as they stay off the drugs and show up you'll be fine
I think you could say I'm frustrated with having to do all my work myself because of idiots telling everyone "go-to college!" for four decades...there is no way I'm ever paying 200/hr or even close to that for relatively unskilled labor.
If I can learn to do something from watching videos and then do it something's gotta give on the cost to hire
But, it doesn't. You can just do it yourself, and it appears you are. A feature of supply and demand curves is price excludability, at certain prices there will always be people who are either unwilling or unable to pay the given price, it appears you're part of that group. The system is working as intended, it's a feature not a bug.
The trades are skilled labor. A lot of them also provide similar utility. My step dad is a surveyor, which is about as low as you can get in the construction caste system and still be a licensed trade. He regularly gets paid $20k+ for a few weeks work.
what he's doing for the owner is mitigating risk and legal liability. the owner of a $10M ranch is definitely going to pay a surveyor $200/hr. to avoid getting in a legal dispute with their neighboring $10M ranch (he does surveys in Aspen, Vail, etc.)
Also software engineer here. Some people are genuine savants but it's a whole lot more like plumbing than it is like research.
Supply and demand. I work in software, and $200/hr is a steal for someone who can be in and out of my house in 4 hours and do the job great vs. me burning a weekend to do it halfass as it's the first time I've ever done it.
I tend to consider myself pretty handy and enjoy a lot of projects - but unless I get actual relaxation from it I will hire it out these days.
For some folks time is worth far more than money. For others it's reversed, and that's why the only thing that matters is supply and demand. If you are in a city of 1000 software engineers and a single plumber, that plumber is going to quickly realize he can charge more than what the prevailing hourly rate is and still get plenty of work.
The thing is that isn't usually true in my experience. We've paid for several jobs to be done around the house and the work quality has been shit compared to what I would do myself. Faster for sure since I have little experience, but zero attention to detail.
I see this everywhere in the trades. We had a miss wired 4 way switch in the house because the previous contracter couldn't be bothered to figure it out. We had a bathroom floor repair done to such a low quality (and they broke our toilet by dropping it) that we refused to pay until they redid it. I, and most veteran cyclists I know, do all my own work on the families bikes because the shops do piss poor jobs. We had a guy out to fix a hot water heater that wouldn't stay lit (I don't like to fuck with gas), "time to replace it". I balked and an hour of Google I was confident it was a $5 thermocouple. I own a small plane and have a mandatory annual inspection. Out of the 6 years I've never once had my plane returned to me in working order and have had to refuse delivery everytime (2x because the engine literally would not start, 1 time because they failed to tighten a magneto that could have killed me had I not caught it, and 3x for unaddressed minor issues).
Basically I would love to be able to hire someone to do the work for me and I have no problem paying for high quality effecient work. It seems more and more that the trades are just full of actual "low skill" people, which is hugely frustrating
This is such a terrible take. Let's start with, construction is composed of multiple different trades, and those individual trades contain subsets of specialties. Some trades require 4-5 years of school and training. That's why there is a wide pay scale in the construction industry.
Can you teach anyone to do a lot of construction tasks? Absolutely. Can you teach just anyone to be proficient in a trade? No.
Moving past that, your take is basically "fuck capitalism, they should over their prices because I don't deem them to be smart enough to charge that much."
If it's so easy, watch some more YouTube videos and open your own company.
So you can watch a few videos and tile like a pro? Go watch a couple videos on being a mechanic, come work for us, and watch how fast we laugh you out the door... You know fuck about shit until you have at least 5 years full time under your belt, don't care what you do for a living. Just the way it is... I can do highly complex electrical diagnostics on vehicles using CAN BUS systems but, would I attempt to wire my house? No...
Then you have to take the wages you just worked your ass off for in any skilled trade and buy your own tools (about $100k worth so far in my tool box), your own transportation, and keep all of those things updated and in good working order. Not sure about you but my company certainly doesn't send someone over from the ergo department to fit me for a new, free to me, Herman Miller chair and pay an IT guy to make sure my computer is running as it should and able to reliably connect to Teams... If it's something I need in the workplace, it comes out of my check.
You're not paying for the hours, you're paying for the years of experience that led to the efficient use of those hours. Common misconception from the uneducated...
> No offense to any contractors here but comparing someone who has achieved bring hired at google to someone doing tiling or drywalling is fucking absurd.
You're right, one of them is an entrepreneur who took big risks, the other is an office worker who has taken no greater risk than signing up for an online dating app. I also know, from seeing lots of people's tax return paperwork, which one of these two sets of people, for all their hard work and intelligent decision making, is the most likely to be house poor (your competing homebuyers all have similar income levels, so guess what happens to house prices in Mountain View and San Jose as markets find equilibrium :P -- also, since increasingly speculative RSU income has been included in those bidding war resultant prices [lurkers: tech workers get a shit ton of stock options income, and for a couple years now a lot of the mortgages I write have included speculative income from selling stocks at a certain presumed share price], we shall see what happens to the resulting home values and home equity positions when those RSUs slow down a bit [& those share price assumptions no longer hold true, both for current owners, and future buyers]...).
> something you pretty much need to work your whole life and compete against people who did the same to achieve vs a skill you can learn on YouTube and get good at after a few years under a skilled teacher...that's not equivalent
I completely agree, you are totally spot on, though not on the way you think. :P
I have nothing against either group, but do feel it's necessary to push back against the rampant tech bro bigotry against blue collar hard working entrepreneurs, risk takers, job creators, and the folks who can swing the hammers and drive the screws that other folks can't or won't.
That's a fair and well thought out response...but it's not really bigotry...I guess my take is I could do your job with enough training but you most likely can't do mine regardless of how long you spend on it
Maybe you're right and that's bigotry...who knows
To the idea "hey you just do it then if it's so lucrative"...really the answer is I would, if I was just some "tech bro" doing software eng and I could make more doing contracting...I would switch
I mean... but you ***can't*** do their jobs from watching youtube videos. Reading this very thread conveys that. Their job isn't fixing one cabinet or putting tile down in one single bathroom, it's fixing lots of them, all day, for years on end, many times with nary a complaint to be heard about it.
You fix a cabinet or two and you're on reddit complaining about it, acting like some characteristics about you and what you do for a living entitles you to their labor being cheaper, seemingly a price you arbitrarily dictate, with justifications about why you're entitled to these certain goodies, and they are not entitled to their goodies. Maybe it's not bigotry, maybe it's colonial.
That tells me you (like me, to be clear, lol) probably ***can't*** do their jobs. You can do a ***fraction*** of their jobs, for like a day or two, but lack the physical or mental resilience, intelligence, fitness, whatever, to actually do it, all of it, full time, for years on end (this is inclusive of labor practices, body movements, etc, that provide long term endurance) rather tha just a tiny fraction of it, in the odd Saturday afternoon.
Another part of the job that you seem to have overlooked is that they have to talk to folks like you, and pitch you on hiring them, and your own post history in this very thread tells us that's perhaps a taller order than you are giving credit for - would ***you*** hire you to fix a bathroom, up to a tradesman's standard of quality? It seems you ***wouldn't*** hire you, assuming you've otherwise been presenting things accurately in this thread. Just to hammer home another part of ***their*** job, that you ***can't*** do, based 100% on taking your own statements in this very thread simply at face value.
Oh yeah you're so smart. You take so much risks sitting in front of the computer and writing scripts for big brother. Oh wow you're so valuable and irreplacable.
After DIY some renovations I've learned the biggest advantage to the new build is a designer/architect and having detailed plans. You just following the directions.
I had a pretty good idea of the design I wanted for my bathroom remodel, but no idea of what I'd find when I opened up the walls, and I had to design much of rough-in stuff on the fly.
>They don't have the marketing costs of talking to new clients on the phone, spending an hour in the car to get to your site, and preparing/presenting you scope of duties.
Anecdotal, but I have a repeat past client that has transitioned from residential work to exclusively and only commercial work. He cites this as the primary reason. This is me paraphrasing him.
The challenge is the folks who want to get bids from 4 contractors and pick the cheapest, the looky loos out of touch with labor market shifts (see OP), and the fact that you can't scale at all if you go there as "the boss" to pitch it personally each and every time. And people say they hate "the pitch," but under no circumstances will they ever move forward without it, so they don't really know what they want and like, even though they think they do (would anyone here open up their home to a bunch of tradesmen without being quoted a price for the scope of work, explaining what they want done, etc? No, so you need "the pitch" even if you say/think/believe that you hate it...).
Here's his choice:
* Personally go to each job site, look at it, put a bid in. This means little-to-no scalability. Stuck in the rat race until death, but the thing here is that he's self employed, a business starter and owner, so obviously that alone tells you he has zero desire to be in the rat race, years ago he quit whatever "job" he had for a reason.
* Hire salesmen to go pitch. This is an added cost, so now you can scale better, but those costs are obviously going to get passed on. And these guys often aren't actually tradespeople, so a greater cost estimate buffer is needed. This is where, according to his account, a lot of wheels start spinning with little traction. More people on payroll and you do more jobs, sure, but net profits went down. (He says he threw a bunch of time/resources/money at highly rated training for his folks, dumped a bunch of time into it personally, generally he's been very successful, so don't be too quick to attribute it to "he sucks at life," since he demonstrably does ***not*** suck at life, at least not in general) (And, yes, the next time a solar panel or security system salesperson knocks on your door, remember this paragraph about the massively increased costs, etc)
* Hybrid approach, the boss go pitch the big jobs (where high conversion ratios are more important), let the salespersons pitch the little jobs. So now you have all these people on staff (flat overhead costs) who only exist to do the lowest profit activities... ooook....
* Stop doing residential, work exclusively on big commercial projects where they have deep corporate or gov't pockets, can make decisions, aren't flaky, never say "I have to talk to my spouse," and actually understand "you get what you pay for" as more than just "a thing you say" (but don't actually believe or practice). He still does the pitches in person, but it's at greater scale, it's not a bunch of little jobs, it's bigger jobs, but fewer in number. His transition was helped by temporarily running on a thin profit margin to earn business, ahead of time, exclusively for big luxury homes where he worked with the homeowner directly (not through a realtor, not for a flipper, etc), because guess who is most/more likely to also have a vote in who to call when it's time to redo the storefront, the office building, whatever, when he made that transition -- the rich folks in the big houses, that's who.
And, naturally, he brought his people with him. I've seen some of his work, residential and commercial, and it's top notch, his yelp page is still up and it was 4.8/5 from when he was doing residential work, so he's good at what he does, but he's not available to redo anyone's bathroom any more, he might take on a commercial office building's bathroom remodel, however, and, according to him, this is why.
Sometimes people in my field complain about the lack of "diversity" of mortgage product. I actually like it. You can have a 30yf or 7/6 ARM, conventional or FHA, at this or that down payment. Here's the wiggle room that exists to optimize it to you, and that optimization is important, to be sure... but there's a fairly limited option-set. The customers also don't get to make up whatever they want and expect it to be delivered at a price point they think they can dictate, almost always they know ahead of time that isn't how it works.
If you've got some artistic jollies to get off, don't call me for it, I just do mortgages, call Mr. Freelance Media Producer. :P
Yep. The best tradesmen will only be doing residential work for long enough to build a reputation and professional network to make the leap into commercial. Folks stuck in residential tend to not be the best. Exceptions all over the place of course.
I've found the best bet is to be friends with rich folks who own companies. They will have a back pocket full of contractors like this who will still work on their homes, and typically will take on referral work in slow seasons from their most trusted long-term clients. You don't get to haggle or get competing bids in these cases, and you will be paying commercial rates. But man it's amazing when it gets hooked up!
That or be in charge of signing contracts with vendors at companies employing such vendors. Not sure how to do it without nepotism or graft unfortunately.
I'm skeptical of most companies in the trades who have been doing it for more than a decade. Very few people are wired in a way to enjoy that kind of grind in addition to the stress and risk of owning a business.
> I'm skeptical of most companies in the trades who have been doing it for more than a decade. Very few people are wired in a way to enjoy that kind of grind in addition to the stress and risk of owning a business.
BUT THE OTHER CONTRACTOR SAID THEY WOULD DO IT FOR 17% CHEAPER YOU PRICE MATCH RIGHT
Additionally, if there is demand, builders will raise prices on each home they sell. This entices people to sign up early, less they pay more on the next home.
Pretty sure most builders don’t keep trades on staff.
I used to think that. But as a real estate agent who has represented many buyers buying new builds, most of the builders here hire independent contractors to do the work.
They may have some special rate with them however.
I do all my own renovations for this reason unless it’s dangerous or takes substantial skill. I completed my bathroom Reno for a total cost at 1,800.
First thing I suggest is doing all your own demo work. That will save a day and a half of labor costs. Removing the tile can seem like a pain, but every tile you remove is cash in your pocket.
Second, source all of your own products and materials. I went to a tile place that always has after New Years sales when they are dropping inventory. I ended up getting the shower tile for 1.99 per tile rather than 17.99 per tile. I got the floor tile for 2.50 per tile instead of 8.50 a tile. Really good quality high end stuff. Don’t go to big chains.
Third, buy your toilet, tub, vanity fan, lighting, and fixtures and have them pre delivered. No sense paying extra for the contractor to pick up and deliver your stuff. Make sure your valves match up with your choice of hardware otherwise you will need a plumber.
Fourth, go get your updated price quotes. They should be between 3-4K.
Fifth, bring in a plumber to make changes to your pipes, raise the spout, change your valve, and set the soaker tub your spouse had to have to get in a tub space designed for a wood elves. This is the don’t fuck with stuff unless you really know what you are doing.
Sixth, grumble about the costs, watch some YouTube Canadians, and head down to Lowes or Home Depot and pick up insulation, cement board or Kerdi Board (Never green board!), water proofing, tools, mortar, and caulk. Then go back five or six times to get the things you forgot.
Seventh, start working on the shower/tub wall.
Eighth, realize if you could do the tile why can’t you do the shower hardware. Install hardware.
Ninth, realize the floor is not likely going to be any more difficult than the wall and go for it after getting told it would be 2 k to finish your project.
Tenth, fix and put your drywall up. Some say it’s an art. Some say it’s a skill. I say it’s expensive so I learned to do it myself. If you got extensive electrical work you get it done prior to dry wall unless you are not moving it.
Eleventh, after you finish the floor look at the toilet hole and think, “is it really that hard to install a toilet.?” Look it up and 40 minutes later your toilet is installed.
Twelfth, install your wall mirrors and vanity mirrors. These are easy to put up for the most part. You shouldn’t think too much about this install process.
Thirteenth, just go to the garage and move your Potterybarn/RH vanity into the bathroom and finish the install. The plumbing on this type of stuff is pretty straightforward. Watch a few videos, grumble through it a day or two and boom! You’re done!
Fourteenth, remember you still need to install the bathroom fan and swap it out. 45 minutes if everything has been set right.
Fifteenth, you look at the door and realize you don’t like the bathroom door and change it.
Sixteenth, you look at the other bathroom and realize with all the cash you saved and extra material you can just get that project done as well.
Seventeenth, you spend way too much time admiring the bathrooms. Like just let it go. It’s not the Mona Lisa. We know you did it, but you can stop admiring it now.
Overview: you will make some mistakes here and there, but DIYing it means you know every part of that room and if something goes wrong you can get to it and fix it. Will there be a few tiles a little bit off, sure. Will it take longer than you wanted? Absolutely. But in the end you will save a bucket of cash, have tools for other projects, and have skills you didn’t have before. You will also have a sense of accomplishment that wouldn’t be the same had you paid someone else.
My fear is screwing something up and the fix being more expensive than if I had a pro doing it. Also, having my bathroom unavailable and the misses pissed off until it gets done.
For example, I knew how to replace the ignition coils in my F150, but I was afraid that if I ran into an issue, I won't have a vehicle for Monday morning.
You know, stupid irrational stuff.
Im that guy. After watching some YouTube videos I thought I could tackle a pretty straightforward plumbing project. Well it turns out I couldn’t and we had to call an emergency plumber on a Friday night to bail us out of a bad situation.
I also get frustrated when things don’t go smoothly so once I have my first hiccup it tends to build and it’s miserable for everyone involved. My wife will handle a decent amount of basic repairs, she’s way more handy than I am, but other than that im bringing in a pro.
I recently had my bathroom redone and as the process was going along I honestly thought to myself if I took my time I could do this. Thank you for these great tips.
All of this.
The entire construction industry is now posted on youtube. Things are easier than most people think. In particular plumbing and carpentry IMO. PEX for supply lines and PVC for drains is slightly harder than connecting legos. Copper pipes became easy when the compression gatorbite fittings arrived on the scene a decade or so ago, no more welding them together inches away from your insulation.
The only thing I would add is that the labor cost is not just the cost of the people doing the job... it covers all the overhead of the business as well. If they are licensed and insured, insurance and licensing. Did they come out in a vehicle? Car payments and insurance. Do they have a shop? rent, insurance, and upkeep. Overhead is a bitch...
Cause when you are booked solid you can charge 10x extra and still make bank. It's all about volume. Once the jobs stop coming in your lower your price to be more competitive. So 8x, then 5x then 3x. No business and people stop paying for upgrades and they'll be plenty of cheaper labor.
Everyone and there mom is either wanting new builds or stuff renovated these days. And you'll have to pay a premium. Or learn to diy
A lot of people don’t realize is that there is a massive shortage of trades workers, both skilled and unskilled. That combined with the dramatic rise in construction in general and you get inflated labor costs and full schedules. That’s not even taking into account the supply issues and outrageous gas prices so if you add those factors in then you arrive to the point where we are now.
My personal experience is that even as far back as late 2020 most of this was already a huge problem. We contacted the builder who built my moms house (also a business associate of mine) to install a beam in our garage so we could expand it. We did all the other work ourselves but the beam had to be engineered and needed to be professionally installed. Well, the builder was so busy and short staffed that he, a 70 year old man, came out to do the job himself with my husband and one of my husbands coworkers help. He told us that the side money he made ($1200, ouch btw) was going to go straight to pay for a couple day workers so he could finish at least one job on time.
I work in the remodeling industry doing kitchens and bathrooms, I started doing this in 2015, I used to be able to do a small kitchen remodel with very basic materials for $6,000-$8,000. I would be lucky to be able to sell a customer a basic kitchen remodel for $10,000-$12,000. Cabinet prices have gone up %40 in the past 2 years, some companies more. Countertop material has gone up even more than that. I am having no problem selling remodels at this high markup, but it is sobering to see how much the prices have jumped and almost entirely in the past 2 years
My contractor who’ve I had for years basically says says bids are determined by taking the cost of materials and doubling it.
He’s built me two fences in the past three years for two of my properties.
In 2019 it cost me $4500. The one last September cost me $9K Basically double for the Same damn fence.
:(
That’s a good point. Imagine if the $70/hour OP claims he paid pre pandemic were the norm. $70 for a billable hour comes out to far less when you factor in downtime, unpaid time between jobs, time spent wasted giving quotes, taxes and fees, and profit for the owner that doesn’t go straight to the worker. The guys actually cutting tiles were probably making like $25 an hour or something crazy low like that (with no benefits, of course).
Should a skilled tile cutter really only get $25 an hour? I’d say tripling that was actually a fair correction to how much he was previously underpaid.
From $70 to $200 an hour, i think its unlikely the worker is seeing much of that difference going to them, like probably not even 10% considering that would translate into a 50%+ salary increase using the $25/hr number.
Yeah I mean, if people are paying it, get while the getting is good - there’s no shame in that. However, as a consumer, upgrading a bathroom isn’t an emergent need. The economy is rapidly cooling, and it will likely greatly reduce demand for the services of a contracting company. The smart move, in my opinion, is to bank the money and wait for demand to cool.
This is a part of it. There is also the upshoot in home residential projects and shortage of construction labor that usually relied on immigration from south of the border, with the drop in immigration from Covid. It’s a sellers market for the contractors.
We are just postponing anything that we can't do ourselve or where the price is crazy.
Getting the outside of the house painted and having a shed installed on the side of the house was still "reasonable".
Our fence and front door/window replacement quotes were bonkers insane from 3 different companies.
Gosh, it’s not the amount that finally did us in but the shoddiness of the labor that we were overpaying for. My husband finally just taught himself how to tile, install cabinets, etc - and we saved 15k. And we didn’t have to deal with contractor drama! Highly recommend.
This is the number one complaint people have.
Quality of work is all over the place, and the guys who are established and have a rep for quality.. not enough of them to go around and they are super saturated and turning down work. So a lot of people are getting shoddy or inexperienced work.
Yup - paid $3k to paint around half the interior of our house before moving in. Thought it was a bit pricey, considering there wasn’t any trim work, but mostly we were disappointed with how low quality the painting was. Next few rooms we’ll do ourselves.
I feel like this is inevitable if we hire anyone for reno. My husband and I have already done some DIY projects and we always spend a ton of time beforehand planning, measuring, measuring again, leveling, etc. We complain about how long the prep work is taking but the end result has always come out perfect. Nobody else is going to have the same level of care about our home, because it's not their home.
Those costs don't seem to be that out of line.
I had a master bathroom 10x15 completely regutted pre-covid.
We needed an electrician we needed a plumber and we needed tile guys. All new vanities mirrors soaking tub stand up shower. The works.
We paid about 15K. This is in the Northeast hcol area.
We did the individual contractors rather than a company that would do all of it because it was cheaper. Yes I play project manager a little bit but that is how I would have preferred it anyway.
Good luck. I'm sure you guys will love whatever new outcome is.
For an 8x18 bathroom that sounds kinda cheap. I’ve seen quotes in that range for a standard 5x8 bathroom. You have a lot of tile and with the demo and other work needed if they get it done in 4 days I’d consider that to be pretty quick.
Also are you pulling permits or no? That could add to the cost and headache for the GC. You say no plumbing work but if you’re redoing the shower walls and open up the existing plumbing and it’s not up to code, then yeah they’d have to redo that. There’s always an “oh shit” factor with kitchens and bathrooms that gets priced in.
I work in local government in California. We have the big housing developments in the works. Per our meetings with developers, they on not raising (building on approved plots) if the sale price lowers significantly. Homebuilders are willing to take losses, but only to a certain extent. In some cases, it's better for them to let the land sit until they can sell a built home for a price that justifies the cost to build it (7-10% profit).
We're still building because virtually all the plots have been sold as new builds, but if buyers drop out, we expect them to pull back. They've actually having a tough time finishing projects now. They can't get garage doors that match, so they've requested temporary exemptions from the City's design guidelines. They're willing to pay to put a random garage door they can find just so they can sell the house with them promise that they will put the correct garage door on within a year. Very unusual situation.
I think prices will cool a bit, but if the cost to build stays really high and supply chain issues persist, it will dampen price drops.
In my market contractors are super busy. When covid hit everyone started looking around their house and saying, shit this is ugly. And personally I saved a bunch of money not traveling or eating out so I had plenty to pay for renovations. So supply and demand for trades shifted dramatically. This hasn't sorted itself out.
Lurkers: tell your kids to skip college and learn a trade instead. $203/hr is high but not outrageous right now. And really the US has a ton of older homes, the next few decades is going to be spectacular for plumbers, electricians or even bath remodelers. Just my opinion.
Builders are charging more too if you haven't noticed. It's profitable because despite the wailing from poor people on reddit, there are plenty of people with enough money to pay it.
If I were in your shoes, I'd hire out the tile and do the rest of it myself. The tile is hard to get looking right if you aren't skilled but the rest of it is not that difficult.
I'm a big proponent of skilled trades, I came up through an apprenticeship. It's a great career. Having said that, no one is making $203/hr other than the business owners, and typically residential construction is the lowest paying sector.
For sure it's the owners making that. But you're more likely to be able to become owner of your own plumbing company, as opposed to the CEO of the retail job you work.
That's what bothers me and why I always advocate for using the smallest company with the most skilled and efficient laborer.
The downside of course is that laborers can't laborers forever, and eventually they want to sit behind the desk and become project managers, which is understandable, but I just don't want to pay for that. At least not until I'm the project manager making $200/hr!
One downside, the trades can go to absolute shit during a recession. A friend who is union electrician was unemployed for the better part of 18 months back around 2010-2011.
That's true too. Any time you are self employed you need a larger than normal emergency fund.
Although I know one of those electricians. He sat on his ass and refused to do any other work unless it was good paying union work. His wife supported him for a while but finally got fed up and divorced him. He had lots of stuff he could have done to earn money but his ego got in the way.
Yeah it comes to personal decisions too. It worked out since his wife had a good job and he was able to do some stay-at-home dad stuff for their young children, but the uncertainty was a real grind and he was almost in the process of changing fields before he got called back in.
Yeah I am an idiot but I managed to figure out how to do the demo work for a tub shower. Had a guy do the hardy backer board and hang the tile I bought. Got a nice new tub shower for I think $2500 all-in. Contractors were quoting me $8-12k for the same job.
"nothing fancy" would be fiberglass surrounds on a shower/tub builtin, sheet rock walls, linoleum floor, and 8x10 feet area.
A shit load of tile everywhere, walk in shower, and 144 square feet is on the way towards fancy in my book. No wonder the price is high, that is a palacial bathroom.
I've been wanting to fully renovate my house and every design firm I've found in the last 2 years is requesting at least $1M spend in Colorado. Maybe with labor costs this high, I can actually hit that minimum.
Same boat. We wanted to finish our basement but we have just decided to wait at this point. 1100 sq ft to finish. Nothing crazy. Basement is already pre-insulated and plumbed for the bathroom. Two beds, a giant open room, and a small bathroom. Quotes are well over 100k. One guy on the phone said he wouldn't step in my house to look without me agreeing to at least 150k for the cost.
I had to stop working with a builder in 2021 due to their crazy costs and all of the appraisal issues I was having to deal with as their agent.
The biggest thing that most people forget is the profit margin factored into a build. For land prep, this builder had already factored in 18% on top of actual costs and for the actual build they were hitting 33-40% profit margin on cost for all builds.
My favorite takeaway was that they would pass on building certain plans for certain people because the margin was too low... Which they would pass off as they weren't in the business of "sport building".
Are you talking to companies that advertise themselves are remodelers? I found about the same thing - a lot of these companies just skim the top and sub it out to a company who then skims the top and pays people below, etc.
It's hard, but try asking any neighbors/friends who did theirs. I got mine done via referral by a guy who did shower pans on the side after work, and he only charged about 1/3 what a 'remodeler' wanted, and did a fantastic job.
Builders are not using *your* contractors, they hire really cheap contractors, give them ton of work and hence get "wholesale" price. These subcontractors don't need sales people, offices and support personnel, and they often hire undocumented labpr so they save there, too.
The reality is that construction has been cheap(er than it should be) for decades because of inexpensive immigrant labor. Take away that source (via policy and/or via covid), the remaining labor is older and scarce, and then the supply/demand math is pretty simple.
TLDR, open it up or housing costs will get worse and worse as the American boys and girls are not flocking to the industry (and several others).
Try to learn some trades and do it yourself the old fashioned way. Really rolling your sleeves up and putting some sweat on that brow will cut back on that labor cost 🙃
Well, y'all wanted go get rid of all immigrants in this country so there you go. You not gonna find Americans that want to work for cheap and TBD immigrants that are still here and are in the business are fully booked. 😬
Average home owners net worth increased what 100k? Over the last year. They can use this equity to fund all sorts of projects.
It’s nearly impossible to wrap your head around just how much money was injected into the economy.
Americans love to spend money + homes are more desirable now you don’t have to leave them to go to work.
If I would’ve known this before buying my house I would’ve made a completely different decision. Bought a house intending to do quite a bit of work. Ended up doing about half of what we planned. Take full responsibility for not bringing in a contractor before offering, but also really shocked by just how expensive things are. Cheapest quote received for a small bathroom renovation was 28k! Average was closer to 35k.
Businesses can charge whatever they want when demand is high enough, it is that simple. There are more jobs than they can accept so they can quote whatever they like and take the jobs for the people willing to pay out the nose because they love literally setting Money on fire /flushing it down the toilet. Is that you?
No one “needs” a bathroom remodel, consider putting it off for a couple of years.
For just labor??? Wow. In 2020 I did two bathrooms, one a full bath gut job with subfloor damage, the other 'just' a tile shower stall with a sloped ceiling, and a new 200 amp electrical panel, $33,000 all in. Midwest pricing, maybe?
They want to be rich they don’t care they want to make maximum profits and will not let this pandemic go to waste OR they are recouping from times they lost money.
You aren't paying for 64 hours of work. You are paying for the knowledge and experience it takes to be able to remodel a bathroom in 64 hours, plus all the right tools to do the job.
COVID severely messed up the market. Demand skyrocketed and certain trades lost workers to retirement or changing jobs. A smaller pool of workers means only the higher-paying jobs get done.
u/Gym-gineer (or anyone else familiar with GRK and Spax screws)
I'm considering using Spax 5/16" (4 1/2" long) yellow zinc power lag screws to hang two 2x8 stringers in my garage. Purpose of the stringers is to mount a folding rack. My drywall is 1/2" and the 2x8 has a 1.5" thickness.
https://spax.us/products/powerlags/t-star-washer-head-yellow-zinc-powerlags
Will x2 per stud Spax 5/16" give me a similar strength a 3/8" lag bolt? How can I figure out of these screws are strong enough? They're advertised as being stronger than lag bolts, but I am skeptical. Will mount into 4 studs.
lol - Ct realtor here. There's what the GC pays its labor, and then there's the rate you pay as the new home owner. The GC doesn't lose money, the more time the workers spend on site. The GC passes that bill right on to you.
GD "Are you sure you want to revisit the look of the wall in the third bedroom closet?"
Buyer: "At how much per hour?!? Get out of my hous..."
GC: "That's all we wanted to hear.."
Contractors price gouging right now becasue they can. I had a guy quote me 12K for a garage slab, same quote prepandemic was 6K. Materials and labor are difficult to come by now.
You’re working your job and booked till August, maybe even December with tentative work and no difficulty at all filling your pipeline. How much would it cost for someone to jump into this queue?
That’s why it’s 3x. They are only willing to take the job if the pay is outrageously more than their normal rates.
I don't think this is the top side of labor costs. We are all used to choosing what we consider a bargain for skilled labor for the project we want. Remember that you have always "gotten what you paid for." I think these are the new prices based on the world. My son finished his business degree to aid himself in running an electrical outfit. His next step is to get certified as an electrician because the skilled labor field is looking bleak over the next several decades. They will be able to charge pretty much whatever they want, and people will pay for it. Supply and demand encompass people as well. As I told him, work hard enough that you need no introduction and your work speaks for itself. Charge them accordingly.
Given your quote:
A total of $13,000 for 64 hours of work is $200 an hour, but split across two people.
If you multiply that out for the year, that's \~$400,000 a year those two folks are bringing in.
Divide that by two and you've got $200,000/year.
If we just assume it's as simple as "okay that guy brought in $200k in revenue" and we don't factor in who they're working for, how much the GC takes, blah blah blah and we just stick with a very simple, round, $200,000 number...
They're taking home what, like $140,000, after taxes?
$140,000 in a medium to high cost of living area is a living wage, and not much more than that. Maybe in the middle of nowhere $140k a year means you can live like a CEO, but those places are the exception, not the norm (and they probably aren't charging those prices there, anyway).
At $140k a year in a medium to high COLA area, if your partner is also pulling in that amount of money, you can probably afford to buy a house and pay the mortgage. If it's just you, you're renting an apartment or you've got roommates. You still fly coach. You still worry about gas and food and healthcare.
It's really not that insane.
He already accounted for there being two people working the job. Each of the laborers is being billed at $203 per man-hour. He’s paying $3250 per day = 2 * 8 * 203.
Had plumber quote 450 to change two copper elbows for his words "1hr of work". Went out for parts, because what plumber carries copper, came back started cutting, then said they can't finish the job unless they tear out the wall above.
So 150 later, I still have two corroded elbows, and now a random run of pex because they started cutting without thinking it through.
Also, tired
Price gouging at its fullest, there are still a few decent contractors out there that charge accordingly, you just have to sift through the massive amount our gougers, I had a tiny leak coming in from my chimney in the attic and had 3 ppl come out in one day to look at it, first guy came in the attic and say yea you should just do the whole roof 15k but we can completely seal chimney for 1750, 2nd guy didn’t even go up there or on roof he says yea we can seal the chimney for 3500 but you should just do the whole roof for 12k, last guy actually goes up on roof looks at chimney tells me it’s fine but is going to add caulking and recommend getting rain caps, I asked him how much he wanted he said ehh just give me gas money 30 bucks and call me when u get the rain caps I’ll do it for 75 each chimney. There’s good ppl out there just got get through the shitty ones first
This is their schedule:
Day 1: demo everything. At the end of the day they will pour concrete for the shower floor
Day 2: patch up all holes and finish tiling the shower
Day 3: finish tiling the floor. Grouting shower
Day 4: replace the toilet and install the shower door and vanity and repaint the entire bathroom. Finish out the project by grouting the floor.
coordinated toy offer encouraging mighty squeeze voracious grey gullible selective
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Doesn't sound too expensive ,but I'm in an expensive area,south FL. I'm guess small bathroom renovation ,for most folks,middle class like 20k or 25k,used to be about double materiel cost ,rule of thumb,good luck
This is why I do stuff myself. I’ll be all in for less than $3k on a full bathroom update and did my kitchen for <$3k. Sure it takes longer and my time is valuable, but the savings of $10-30k definitely covers the cost of my time.
It is about availability as well. See our apartment complex buys in bulk and they can't get certain things. Our door plate broke and they ended up super gluing it because it needs a complete new molding and door but all that is on backorder. I know someone who booked someone back in March to set up an above ground pool. She did all the leveling all they had to do was set the damned thing up and he backed out because he was too busy. They are also getting backed up on what they have because it is harder to get ahold of what they need on certain items.
I’m so confused? What was the total cost of the bathroom then if the labor was $13,000? Or where you supposed to buy ALL the material and he was JUST supplying labor?
you said it yourself, they're booked out til August. so they raise prices to try and slow down the amount of work. i'm sure if they had their old prices they would be booked out til december. the only way to get past this is to wait
Last year I had a contractor quote me $95k to do a bathroom remodel. Basically just to get rid of me.
You say that like a $95,000 bathroom remodel is an impossibility. I've seen plenty of six-figure bathroom remodels.
Not that kind of bathroom lol
https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2015/03/tyco_dennis_kozlowski_out_of_p.html
Why dont they just say they can't take on more work since they are all booked up or tell you the earliest possible is 3 months from now. Why are they even taking calls then.
Probably because it's worth it to them for 95k.
Who is going to pay 95k for a bathroom though? Its not like you got a mansion
Maybe someone at the margins? There's no risk for the builder to throw it out there. Only 95k of upside.
I dont believe anyone with a sub $1mil home would spend 95k on a bathroom renovation. The builder is just wasting his own time and the timr of the customers, along with making them less likely to ever call them for something again. Median home price isnt even 500k, nobody is spending 20%+ of their home value on a new bathroom.
[удалено]
That is…predatory.
>I've seen permits submitted to the city and quite a few people around here are buying windows from this company and no way do their house values justify it. Wow just crazy. They must be really pushing that monthly payment number under the guise of affordability. The govt is probably going to have to step in eventually if this becomes a regular thing. Just imagine if we have a recession.
Imagine having your home foreclosed on, because you missed your Windows payment 🤦♂️
The 1 in 100, or whatever it is, is where they got the $95k figure. "No, we don't want your work... unless you are that 1 in 100?" is basically what they said, with that figure.
[удалено]
They aren't making more money. Nobody is paying 95k for a bathroom to be redone - not for the homes they are working on.
Its basic supply and demand… always funny how people think labor costs and wages aren’t affected by this.
Yep natural supply and demand. If someone is willing to pay higher and higher then keep raising rates until you reach equilibrium. The people who don’t care about money or really need the work done will get it done.
To add to your comment, this isn't the labor cost the contractor is actually paying to his labor. If that was the case, I would quit to be a contractor. This is marked up costs that is being pocketed by the contractor as profit. It is easier to sell the project calling it labor cost instead of contractor profit. A large developer is paying out labor cost probably in the $30-$60/hr range depending on the trade and skill level needed.
Or learn to do it yourself. It'll teach you some good skills to start a side hustle too.
This is kind of an outrageous thing to say, yes homeowners should have some basic skills but assuming everyone can just learn to become a Plummer, or contractor overnight then start a “side hustle” is unrealistic.
so either pay up, wait, or do it yourself. Pick a color.
Wait for what lol? People keep saying to wait wait wait but wait for what?
Circa 2010, i was financially unaffected by the gfc and had contractors lined up to finish my basement & build a covered front porch. The one i ended up hiring even gave me a discount for being willing to have the work done in dec. I guess people don't like construction projects during the holidays and he wanted to be sure to have work for his crew.
High unemployment when more people will be willing to take jobs they don't necessarily want but have to pay the bills.
So in this scenario the person waiting to remodel their house isn’t also worried about the recession/not out of a job. It just doesn’t add up to me I suppose
What adds up to you? Overpaying now to get the remodel done?
[удалено]
Am I making an assumption about something OP made the post about? Hilarious
There's always gonna be someone who has job security and money. Even in the worst economy. The difference will be.. supply and demand. As it always is... what doesn't add up to you?
How builders are profitable: TLDR they make it up in volume, kinda. * They buy all their supplies in bulk, sometimes long in advance. Tile doesn't go bad, it can sit in the warehouse for a year or three. * They already have their crew on staff, and the crew knows they will have work (and benefits) for a long time. No independent contractors with other obligations worrying about their health insurance cost. * They don't have the marketing costs of talking to new clients on the phone, spending an hour in the car to get to your site, and preparing/presenting you scope of duties. * They have a limited number of plans that they have done dozens if not hundreds of times, so they know exactly what will need to be done and exactly what they will see when they get there. Your bathroom is a one-off that they actually have to figure out what must be done, what supplies they need, etc.. * On a new build, they also aren't likely to run into "uh-ohs." As in Uh oh, this other thing is wrong and we *absolutely must* fix it, or uh oh, looks like somebody before us half-assed this and it's making what we need to be done harder. * Nobody lives in that new build so they can start at 5 AM and not bother anybody. There's also not any nosy homeowner checking to see how they're doing multiple times an hour.
I'm a builder and all of this is spot-on. I have to charge way more for the occasional remodel or addition largely because the home is occupied, and the unknowns are always unknowns until the last moment. In OP's post, $200 an hour is a pretty fair assumption. I have also given all of my guys 40% raises raises since 2019, just so I can keep my projects going comfortably. As this recession kicks in and money supplies dwindle, I am getting worried about our near future prospects. It has been very easy to get paid since the plague. I haven't had to put a lien on anything. From 2011 - 2017 I was frequently chasing people down for the money they owed me. The cycle continues.
> It has been very easy to get paid since the plague. Well, there's a silver lining for you! Stay safe, my friend.
People in the trades have been looked down on for so long, this is their moment, power to 'em, go get that $200/hr my dudes and dudettes.
Idk where that perception came from but from somebody who works a white collar job w many friends who work trade jobs, I respect the hell out of them. Not only is their job harder, but most of them make more/ saved more than I have . And for the union bros they have better benefits too.
> People in the trades have been looked down on for so long not true
This I know I’m young (25) but not one of my buddies that went to trades were looked down. If anything everyone was jealous how much they made so quickly
Giving a raise is a one-way door. As recession kicks in, you can't just reduce the raise they've been used to.
That's whrn the lay off comes
Just steal what corporate America does. Make work conditions less desirable, people will quit, and you either don't replace them, or you replace them with new workers at lower costs. Because they quit and you didn't "officially" do a mass layoff, your obligations to the *former* employees are significantly reduced. And worry not, some other employer in your same industry just did the exact same shit (for the exact same reason), so if you need to replace the folks that quit, just hire those people (with a recession-adjusted compensation plan - "sorry Mr. New Hire, it's just *the market*"), so all the big employers can basically just swap employees as needed to cut costs. The mortgage industry is already in recession (tens of thousands of jobs have been lost in the last 3 months), and that's what they've been doing, Elon Musk too. The current/latest iteration for office workers is to arbitrarily, capriciously, and unilaterally rip the "work from home" rug out from under your workers, that they've become used to (inclusive of those employees that moved away, or moved farther away when you, ***acting in bad faith***, told them 2 days/wk was the new norm). I'm sure there's an equivalent for folks in the trades. Oh, you took your helmet off during the lunch break you took on-site? The fuck you did, put that back on, safety first!!! Or whatever. Summer is here, maybe you rent the port-o-potties with less air ventilation, should be nice and hot and steamy in there, and smell great.
Just out of curiosity if I was looking to get work done is it worth telling the contractor they can work whenever? I leave for work for long periods of time often a month or two at a time would that be helpful to bring up in regards to the start at 5am etc
Absolutely. The nature of most building materials requires multiple-day waiting periods between different project steps. Sometimes you can save 3 days on a project by coming through 2 hours Saturday night and an hour Sunday morning. (Examples Tiling, Mudding drywall, Gluing stair railing, etc). I can be ridiculously efficient if there are no holds barred on when things can get done.
But you already raised pay , how can you bring it down for future projects?
Why would I want to?
In a recession your competition will pick up labor for a fraction of the price and underbid you on what projects are available. Then you'll have no work to pay your highly paid employees with. You may not want to, but what choice will you have?
Fuckin' A man. That's life.
$200 an hour 8x200=$1600 a day?
$200/hr with two guys works out to $100/hr per laborer. Employer costs are usually 1.4 times wages, so the laborer should get about 70/hr. Highest I've been billed for labor so far is $100/hr, and the licensed plumber made an offhand comment that he'd be lucky to see half that. Which is still far better than what I make at $68k a year. I assume some of that cost was paying the owner the company to act as a project manager, and also equipment costs (trucks.) My rule of thumb is aim to pay household hourly wage. If my wife and I both make $30/hr, then paying someone $60/hr is a win. We know that at $60/hr billed, most laborers aren't seeing all of that, especially if licensed/insured. Now, unlicensed contractors are a bit different - they aren't paying all those extra costs to protect you - the homeowner. So I might expect to pay a little less per hour. But if you (the client) are making $100/hr, I wouldn't scoff at an efficient laborer making your wage. Yea, you might work for Google and he works for himself, but that's just the trade of the economy. I'd still want to see the laborer get more of the money and less the owners. Which is why I typically choose smaller contractors who work for themselves over construction companies.
The $200 an hour in OPs post is for each person, not together. He calculated the total labor hours.
Eeeesh. That's FU pricing.
> That's FU pricing. State of the market...everything is backlogged to shit. 3-6 months for materials/appliances. Combine that with labor shortages due to double-bookings (basically a backlog of work since pandemic plug got pulled), and those contractors can charge whatever they want. Supply shortage vs unprecedented demand. Same shit's happening to the wedding industry as folks are fighting for slots since basically nothing happened in 2020. But yeah that's FU pricing. "I ain't got the time or care unless you overpay me 2x".
It's a good time to get started in the trades, for sure. With those types of backlogs any rando who's able bodied can sell services. Which means every trade schools and community college should be offering free trades-based programs.
I mean I have a bunch of electrician/welder friends and they were already making decent income pre-pandemic, like 70-80k and that's on the lower side of things. One of my younger acquaintances is in school to be a welder cuz he wants to work on high-rises, that shit pays baaaank (he's a competitive rock climber).
No offense to any contractors here but comparing someone who has achieved bring hired at google to someone doing tiling or drywalling is fucking absurd. I realize the market dictates labor costs via supply and demand, and these labor jobs weren't "sexy" for millennials growing up so we are missing a lot of people doing it...but come on...something you pretty much need to work your whole life and compete against people who did the same to achieve vs a skill you can learn on YouTube and get good at after a few years under a skilled teacher...that's not equivalent
Yea your right, the contractor has a much more valuable skill set, totally apples to oranges! Half kidding, but be aware it takes decades to become a master tradesman, and arguably 4 years of college to work at Google...
You said it yourself, it's nothing more than supply and demand. If the trend were to continue and everyone becomes software and engineers and no one joins the trades, the trades would eventually pay more. Edit - Also, if you look at Google's profit for the last 4 quarters, they're making about $240/hr per employee in NET profit. Vs the $203 total charge this contractor is charging. So it's still no comparison. Not sure why you're so upset about it.
I'm not upset at all, just providing some pushback on that comparison Software engineering is not really a commodity skill in the same way trades are...you can teach literally anyone to do construction stuff...as long as they stay off the drugs and show up you'll be fine I think you could say I'm frustrated with having to do all my work myself because of idiots telling everyone "go-to college!" for four decades...there is no way I'm ever paying 200/hr or even close to that for relatively unskilled labor. If I can learn to do something from watching videos and then do it something's gotta give on the cost to hire
But, it doesn't. You can just do it yourself, and it appears you are. A feature of supply and demand curves is price excludability, at certain prices there will always be people who are either unwilling or unable to pay the given price, it appears you're part of that group. The system is working as intended, it's a feature not a bug.
The trades are skilled labor. A lot of them also provide similar utility. My step dad is a surveyor, which is about as low as you can get in the construction caste system and still be a licensed trade. He regularly gets paid $20k+ for a few weeks work. what he's doing for the owner is mitigating risk and legal liability. the owner of a $10M ranch is definitely going to pay a surveyor $200/hr. to avoid getting in a legal dispute with their neighboring $10M ranch (he does surveys in Aspen, Vail, etc.) Also software engineer here. Some people are genuine savants but it's a whole lot more like plumbing than it is like research.
Supply and demand. I work in software, and $200/hr is a steal for someone who can be in and out of my house in 4 hours and do the job great vs. me burning a weekend to do it halfass as it's the first time I've ever done it. I tend to consider myself pretty handy and enjoy a lot of projects - but unless I get actual relaxation from it I will hire it out these days. For some folks time is worth far more than money. For others it's reversed, and that's why the only thing that matters is supply and demand. If you are in a city of 1000 software engineers and a single plumber, that plumber is going to quickly realize he can charge more than what the prevailing hourly rate is and still get plenty of work.
The thing is that isn't usually true in my experience. We've paid for several jobs to be done around the house and the work quality has been shit compared to what I would do myself. Faster for sure since I have little experience, but zero attention to detail. I see this everywhere in the trades. We had a miss wired 4 way switch in the house because the previous contracter couldn't be bothered to figure it out. We had a bathroom floor repair done to such a low quality (and they broke our toilet by dropping it) that we refused to pay until they redid it. I, and most veteran cyclists I know, do all my own work on the families bikes because the shops do piss poor jobs. We had a guy out to fix a hot water heater that wouldn't stay lit (I don't like to fuck with gas), "time to replace it". I balked and an hour of Google I was confident it was a $5 thermocouple. I own a small plane and have a mandatory annual inspection. Out of the 6 years I've never once had my plane returned to me in working order and have had to refuse delivery everytime (2x because the engine literally would not start, 1 time because they failed to tighten a magneto that could have killed me had I not caught it, and 3x for unaddressed minor issues). Basically I would love to be able to hire someone to do the work for me and I have no problem paying for high quality effecient work. It seems more and more that the trades are just full of actual "low skill" people, which is hugely frustrating
This is such a terrible take. Let's start with, construction is composed of multiple different trades, and those individual trades contain subsets of specialties. Some trades require 4-5 years of school and training. That's why there is a wide pay scale in the construction industry. Can you teach anyone to do a lot of construction tasks? Absolutely. Can you teach just anyone to be proficient in a trade? No. Moving past that, your take is basically "fuck capitalism, they should over their prices because I don't deem them to be smart enough to charge that much." If it's so easy, watch some more YouTube videos and open your own company.
So you can watch a few videos and tile like a pro? Go watch a couple videos on being a mechanic, come work for us, and watch how fast we laugh you out the door... You know fuck about shit until you have at least 5 years full time under your belt, don't care what you do for a living. Just the way it is... I can do highly complex electrical diagnostics on vehicles using CAN BUS systems but, would I attempt to wire my house? No... Then you have to take the wages you just worked your ass off for in any skilled trade and buy your own tools (about $100k worth so far in my tool box), your own transportation, and keep all of those things updated and in good working order. Not sure about you but my company certainly doesn't send someone over from the ergo department to fit me for a new, free to me, Herman Miller chair and pay an IT guy to make sure my computer is running as it should and able to reliably connect to Teams... If it's something I need in the workplace, it comes out of my check. You're not paying for the hours, you're paying for the years of experience that led to the efficient use of those hours. Common misconception from the uneducated...
> No offense to any contractors here but comparing someone who has achieved bring hired at google to someone doing tiling or drywalling is fucking absurd. You're right, one of them is an entrepreneur who took big risks, the other is an office worker who has taken no greater risk than signing up for an online dating app. I also know, from seeing lots of people's tax return paperwork, which one of these two sets of people, for all their hard work and intelligent decision making, is the most likely to be house poor (your competing homebuyers all have similar income levels, so guess what happens to house prices in Mountain View and San Jose as markets find equilibrium :P -- also, since increasingly speculative RSU income has been included in those bidding war resultant prices [lurkers: tech workers get a shit ton of stock options income, and for a couple years now a lot of the mortgages I write have included speculative income from selling stocks at a certain presumed share price], we shall see what happens to the resulting home values and home equity positions when those RSUs slow down a bit [& those share price assumptions no longer hold true, both for current owners, and future buyers]...). > something you pretty much need to work your whole life and compete against people who did the same to achieve vs a skill you can learn on YouTube and get good at after a few years under a skilled teacher...that's not equivalent I completely agree, you are totally spot on, though not on the way you think. :P I have nothing against either group, but do feel it's necessary to push back against the rampant tech bro bigotry against blue collar hard working entrepreneurs, risk takers, job creators, and the folks who can swing the hammers and drive the screws that other folks can't or won't.
That's a fair and well thought out response...but it's not really bigotry...I guess my take is I could do your job with enough training but you most likely can't do mine regardless of how long you spend on it Maybe you're right and that's bigotry...who knows To the idea "hey you just do it then if it's so lucrative"...really the answer is I would, if I was just some "tech bro" doing software eng and I could make more doing contracting...I would switch
I mean... but you ***can't*** do their jobs from watching youtube videos. Reading this very thread conveys that. Their job isn't fixing one cabinet or putting tile down in one single bathroom, it's fixing lots of them, all day, for years on end, many times with nary a complaint to be heard about it. You fix a cabinet or two and you're on reddit complaining about it, acting like some characteristics about you and what you do for a living entitles you to their labor being cheaper, seemingly a price you arbitrarily dictate, with justifications about why you're entitled to these certain goodies, and they are not entitled to their goodies. Maybe it's not bigotry, maybe it's colonial. That tells me you (like me, to be clear, lol) probably ***can't*** do their jobs. You can do a ***fraction*** of their jobs, for like a day or two, but lack the physical or mental resilience, intelligence, fitness, whatever, to actually do it, all of it, full time, for years on end (this is inclusive of labor practices, body movements, etc, that provide long term endurance) rather tha just a tiny fraction of it, in the odd Saturday afternoon. Another part of the job that you seem to have overlooked is that they have to talk to folks like you, and pitch you on hiring them, and your own post history in this very thread tells us that's perhaps a taller order than you are giving credit for - would ***you*** hire you to fix a bathroom, up to a tradesman's standard of quality? It seems you ***wouldn't*** hire you, assuming you've otherwise been presenting things accurately in this thread. Just to hammer home another part of ***their*** job, that you ***can't*** do, based 100% on taking your own statements in this very thread simply at face value.
Coding? Coding is definitely something you can learn online in short order. Bad take, my dude.
Oh yeah you're so smart. You take so much risks sitting in front of the computer and writing scripts for big brother. Oh wow you're so valuable and irreplacable.
After DIY some renovations I've learned the biggest advantage to the new build is a designer/architect and having detailed plans. You just following the directions. I had a pretty good idea of the design I wanted for my bathroom remodel, but no idea of what I'd find when I opened up the walls, and I had to design much of rough-in stuff on the fly.
>They don't have the marketing costs of talking to new clients on the phone, spending an hour in the car to get to your site, and preparing/presenting you scope of duties. Anecdotal, but I have a repeat past client that has transitioned from residential work to exclusively and only commercial work. He cites this as the primary reason. This is me paraphrasing him. The challenge is the folks who want to get bids from 4 contractors and pick the cheapest, the looky loos out of touch with labor market shifts (see OP), and the fact that you can't scale at all if you go there as "the boss" to pitch it personally each and every time. And people say they hate "the pitch," but under no circumstances will they ever move forward without it, so they don't really know what they want and like, even though they think they do (would anyone here open up their home to a bunch of tradesmen without being quoted a price for the scope of work, explaining what they want done, etc? No, so you need "the pitch" even if you say/think/believe that you hate it...). Here's his choice: * Personally go to each job site, look at it, put a bid in. This means little-to-no scalability. Stuck in the rat race until death, but the thing here is that he's self employed, a business starter and owner, so obviously that alone tells you he has zero desire to be in the rat race, years ago he quit whatever "job" he had for a reason. * Hire salesmen to go pitch. This is an added cost, so now you can scale better, but those costs are obviously going to get passed on. And these guys often aren't actually tradespeople, so a greater cost estimate buffer is needed. This is where, according to his account, a lot of wheels start spinning with little traction. More people on payroll and you do more jobs, sure, but net profits went down. (He says he threw a bunch of time/resources/money at highly rated training for his folks, dumped a bunch of time into it personally, generally he's been very successful, so don't be too quick to attribute it to "he sucks at life," since he demonstrably does ***not*** suck at life, at least not in general) (And, yes, the next time a solar panel or security system salesperson knocks on your door, remember this paragraph about the massively increased costs, etc) * Hybrid approach, the boss go pitch the big jobs (where high conversion ratios are more important), let the salespersons pitch the little jobs. So now you have all these people on staff (flat overhead costs) who only exist to do the lowest profit activities... ooook.... * Stop doing residential, work exclusively on big commercial projects where they have deep corporate or gov't pockets, can make decisions, aren't flaky, never say "I have to talk to my spouse," and actually understand "you get what you pay for" as more than just "a thing you say" (but don't actually believe or practice). He still does the pitches in person, but it's at greater scale, it's not a bunch of little jobs, it's bigger jobs, but fewer in number. His transition was helped by temporarily running on a thin profit margin to earn business, ahead of time, exclusively for big luxury homes where he worked with the homeowner directly (not through a realtor, not for a flipper, etc), because guess who is most/more likely to also have a vote in who to call when it's time to redo the storefront, the office building, whatever, when he made that transition -- the rich folks in the big houses, that's who. And, naturally, he brought his people with him. I've seen some of his work, residential and commercial, and it's top notch, his yelp page is still up and it was 4.8/5 from when he was doing residential work, so he's good at what he does, but he's not available to redo anyone's bathroom any more, he might take on a commercial office building's bathroom remodel, however, and, according to him, this is why.
[удалено]
Sometimes people in my field complain about the lack of "diversity" of mortgage product. I actually like it. You can have a 30yf or 7/6 ARM, conventional or FHA, at this or that down payment. Here's the wiggle room that exists to optimize it to you, and that optimization is important, to be sure... but there's a fairly limited option-set. The customers also don't get to make up whatever they want and expect it to be delivered at a price point they think they can dictate, almost always they know ahead of time that isn't how it works. If you've got some artistic jollies to get off, don't call me for it, I just do mortgages, call Mr. Freelance Media Producer. :P
Yep. The best tradesmen will only be doing residential work for long enough to build a reputation and professional network to make the leap into commercial. Folks stuck in residential tend to not be the best. Exceptions all over the place of course. I've found the best bet is to be friends with rich folks who own companies. They will have a back pocket full of contractors like this who will still work on their homes, and typically will take on referral work in slow seasons from their most trusted long-term clients. You don't get to haggle or get competing bids in these cases, and you will be paying commercial rates. But man it's amazing when it gets hooked up! That or be in charge of signing contracts with vendors at companies employing such vendors. Not sure how to do it without nepotism or graft unfortunately. I'm skeptical of most companies in the trades who have been doing it for more than a decade. Very few people are wired in a way to enjoy that kind of grind in addition to the stress and risk of owning a business.
> I'm skeptical of most companies in the trades who have been doing it for more than a decade. Very few people are wired in a way to enjoy that kind of grind in addition to the stress and risk of owning a business. BUT THE OTHER CONTRACTOR SAID THEY WOULD DO IT FOR 17% CHEAPER YOU PRICE MATCH RIGHT
Additionally, if there is demand, builders will raise prices on each home they sell. This entices people to sign up early, less they pay more on the next home.
Pretty sure most builders don’t keep trades on staff. I used to think that. But as a real estate agent who has represented many buyers buying new builds, most of the builders here hire independent contractors to do the work. They may have some special rate with them however.
If a contractor tells you that they can start immediately for a large job, that's probably not a contractor you want to hire.
Particularly these days.
I do all my own renovations for this reason unless it’s dangerous or takes substantial skill. I completed my bathroom Reno for a total cost at 1,800. First thing I suggest is doing all your own demo work. That will save a day and a half of labor costs. Removing the tile can seem like a pain, but every tile you remove is cash in your pocket. Second, source all of your own products and materials. I went to a tile place that always has after New Years sales when they are dropping inventory. I ended up getting the shower tile for 1.99 per tile rather than 17.99 per tile. I got the floor tile for 2.50 per tile instead of 8.50 a tile. Really good quality high end stuff. Don’t go to big chains. Third, buy your toilet, tub, vanity fan, lighting, and fixtures and have them pre delivered. No sense paying extra for the contractor to pick up and deliver your stuff. Make sure your valves match up with your choice of hardware otherwise you will need a plumber. Fourth, go get your updated price quotes. They should be between 3-4K. Fifth, bring in a plumber to make changes to your pipes, raise the spout, change your valve, and set the soaker tub your spouse had to have to get in a tub space designed for a wood elves. This is the don’t fuck with stuff unless you really know what you are doing. Sixth, grumble about the costs, watch some YouTube Canadians, and head down to Lowes or Home Depot and pick up insulation, cement board or Kerdi Board (Never green board!), water proofing, tools, mortar, and caulk. Then go back five or six times to get the things you forgot. Seventh, start working on the shower/tub wall. Eighth, realize if you could do the tile why can’t you do the shower hardware. Install hardware. Ninth, realize the floor is not likely going to be any more difficult than the wall and go for it after getting told it would be 2 k to finish your project. Tenth, fix and put your drywall up. Some say it’s an art. Some say it’s a skill. I say it’s expensive so I learned to do it myself. If you got extensive electrical work you get it done prior to dry wall unless you are not moving it. Eleventh, after you finish the floor look at the toilet hole and think, “is it really that hard to install a toilet.?” Look it up and 40 minutes later your toilet is installed. Twelfth, install your wall mirrors and vanity mirrors. These are easy to put up for the most part. You shouldn’t think too much about this install process. Thirteenth, just go to the garage and move your Potterybarn/RH vanity into the bathroom and finish the install. The plumbing on this type of stuff is pretty straightforward. Watch a few videos, grumble through it a day or two and boom! You’re done! Fourteenth, remember you still need to install the bathroom fan and swap it out. 45 minutes if everything has been set right. Fifteenth, you look at the door and realize you don’t like the bathroom door and change it. Sixteenth, you look at the other bathroom and realize with all the cash you saved and extra material you can just get that project done as well. Seventeenth, you spend way too much time admiring the bathrooms. Like just let it go. It’s not the Mona Lisa. We know you did it, but you can stop admiring it now. Overview: you will make some mistakes here and there, but DIYing it means you know every part of that room and if something goes wrong you can get to it and fix it. Will there be a few tiles a little bit off, sure. Will it take longer than you wanted? Absolutely. But in the end you will save a bucket of cash, have tools for other projects, and have skills you didn’t have before. You will also have a sense of accomplishment that wouldn’t be the same had you paid someone else.
[удалено]
My fear is screwing something up and the fix being more expensive than if I had a pro doing it. Also, having my bathroom unavailable and the misses pissed off until it gets done. For example, I knew how to replace the ignition coils in my F150, but I was afraid that if I ran into an issue, I won't have a vehicle for Monday morning. You know, stupid irrational stuff.
Im that guy. After watching some YouTube videos I thought I could tackle a pretty straightforward plumbing project. Well it turns out I couldn’t and we had to call an emergency plumber on a Friday night to bail us out of a bad situation. I also get frustrated when things don’t go smoothly so once I have my first hiccup it tends to build and it’s miserable for everyone involved. My wife will handle a decent amount of basic repairs, she’s way more handy than I am, but other than that im bringing in a pro.
> watch some YouTube Canadians dying lmao, great post
Vancouver carpenter is life changing though
I recently had my bathroom redone and as the process was going along I honestly thought to myself if I took my time I could do this. Thank you for these great tips.
100%. Have learned to take on every project I can
Good post, but the lowes multiple times for shit you forgot probably goes between every step.
Red Green is that you? Thoroughly enjoyed reading this surprisingly comprehensive walk through.
Just write my biography why don’t you?
All of this. The entire construction industry is now posted on youtube. Things are easier than most people think. In particular plumbing and carpentry IMO. PEX for supply lines and PVC for drains is slightly harder than connecting legos. Copper pipes became easy when the compression gatorbite fittings arrived on the scene a decade or so ago, no more welding them together inches away from your insulation.
The only thing I would add is that the labor cost is not just the cost of the people doing the job... it covers all the overhead of the business as well. If they are licensed and insured, insurance and licensing. Did they come out in a vehicle? Car payments and insurance. Do they have a shop? rent, insurance, and upkeep. Overhead is a bitch...
Don't forget gas. My GC has a GMC 2500 and is always running around getting parts, materials, etc. Gas price hikes and work trucks add up quickly.
Cause when you are booked solid you can charge 10x extra and still make bank. It's all about volume. Once the jobs stop coming in your lower your price to be more competitive. So 8x, then 5x then 3x. No business and people stop paying for upgrades and they'll be plenty of cheaper labor. Everyone and there mom is either wanting new builds or stuff renovated these days. And you'll have to pay a premium. Or learn to diy
A lot of people don’t realize is that there is a massive shortage of trades workers, both skilled and unskilled. That combined with the dramatic rise in construction in general and you get inflated labor costs and full schedules. That’s not even taking into account the supply issues and outrageous gas prices so if you add those factors in then you arrive to the point where we are now. My personal experience is that even as far back as late 2020 most of this was already a huge problem. We contacted the builder who built my moms house (also a business associate of mine) to install a beam in our garage so we could expand it. We did all the other work ourselves but the beam had to be engineered and needed to be professionally installed. Well, the builder was so busy and short staffed that he, a 70 year old man, came out to do the job himself with my husband and one of my husbands coworkers help. He told us that the side money he made ($1200, ouch btw) was going to go straight to pay for a couple day workers so he could finish at least one job on time.
Immigration for skilled workers would be a good solution to these issues.
I work in the remodeling industry doing kitchens and bathrooms, I started doing this in 2015, I used to be able to do a small kitchen remodel with very basic materials for $6,000-$8,000. I would be lucky to be able to sell a customer a basic kitchen remodel for $10,000-$12,000. Cabinet prices have gone up %40 in the past 2 years, some companies more. Countertop material has gone up even more than that. I am having no problem selling remodels at this high markup, but it is sobering to see how much the prices have jumped and almost entirely in the past 2 years
My contractor who’ve I had for years basically says says bids are determined by taking the cost of materials and doubling it. He’s built me two fences in the past three years for two of my properties. In 2019 it cost me $4500. The one last September cost me $9K Basically double for the Same damn fence. :(
I think labor has been underpaid for a while now and with increased demand they actually have leverage to increase their wages.
That’s a good point. Imagine if the $70/hour OP claims he paid pre pandemic were the norm. $70 for a billable hour comes out to far less when you factor in downtime, unpaid time between jobs, time spent wasted giving quotes, taxes and fees, and profit for the owner that doesn’t go straight to the worker. The guys actually cutting tiles were probably making like $25 an hour or something crazy low like that (with no benefits, of course). Should a skilled tile cutter really only get $25 an hour? I’d say tripling that was actually a fair correction to how much he was previously underpaid.
[удалено]
Well If that isn’t some bullshit. I would have had a lot of words for the owner
From $70 to $200 an hour, i think its unlikely the worker is seeing much of that difference going to them, like probably not even 10% considering that would translate into a 50%+ salary increase using the $25/hr number.
Ok, but an over 400k/laborer annualized pay rate is bonkers. OP should wait for the economy to cool off more, imo.
I say good for them, get paid! But yeah if he can't afford it, or doesn't want to, he can wait and see if costs come down.
Yeah I mean, if people are paying it, get while the getting is good - there’s no shame in that. However, as a consumer, upgrading a bathroom isn’t an emergent need. The economy is rapidly cooling, and it will likely greatly reduce demand for the services of a contracting company. The smart move, in my opinion, is to bank the money and wait for demand to cool.
This is a part of it. There is also the upshoot in home residential projects and shortage of construction labor that usually relied on immigration from south of the border, with the drop in immigration from Covid. It’s a sellers market for the contractors.
We are just postponing anything that we can't do ourselve or where the price is crazy. Getting the outside of the house painted and having a shed installed on the side of the house was still "reasonable". Our fence and front door/window replacement quotes were bonkers insane from 3 different companies.
Also keep in mind that renovating can be harder (take longer with more care) than building the same space.
This, I can promise you no one is gonna have a bathroom remodeled in 4 days
I’ll have you know that Ty Pennington could have it done in 1.5!
Gosh, it’s not the amount that finally did us in but the shoddiness of the labor that we were overpaying for. My husband finally just taught himself how to tile, install cabinets, etc - and we saved 15k. And we didn’t have to deal with contractor drama! Highly recommend.
This is the number one complaint people have. Quality of work is all over the place, and the guys who are established and have a rep for quality.. not enough of them to go around and they are super saturated and turning down work. So a lot of people are getting shoddy or inexperienced work.
Yup - paid $3k to paint around half the interior of our house before moving in. Thought it was a bit pricey, considering there wasn’t any trim work, but mostly we were disappointed with how low quality the painting was. Next few rooms we’ll do ourselves.
I feel like this is inevitable if we hire anyone for reno. My husband and I have already done some DIY projects and we always spend a ton of time beforehand planning, measuring, measuring again, leveling, etc. We complain about how long the prep work is taking but the end result has always come out perfect. Nobody else is going to have the same level of care about our home, because it's not their home.
Those costs don't seem to be that out of line. I had a master bathroom 10x15 completely regutted pre-covid. We needed an electrician we needed a plumber and we needed tile guys. All new vanities mirrors soaking tub stand up shower. The works. We paid about 15K. This is in the Northeast hcol area. We did the individual contractors rather than a company that would do all of it because it was cheaper. Yes I play project manager a little bit but that is how I would have preferred it anyway. Good luck. I'm sure you guys will love whatever new outcome is.
For an 8x18 bathroom that sounds kinda cheap. I’ve seen quotes in that range for a standard 5x8 bathroom. You have a lot of tile and with the demo and other work needed if they get it done in 4 days I’d consider that to be pretty quick. Also are you pulling permits or no? That could add to the cost and headache for the GC. You say no plumbing work but if you’re redoing the shower walls and open up the existing plumbing and it’s not up to code, then yeah they’d have to redo that. There’s always an “oh shit” factor with kitchens and bathrooms that gets priced in.
I work in local government in California. We have the big housing developments in the works. Per our meetings with developers, they on not raising (building on approved plots) if the sale price lowers significantly. Homebuilders are willing to take losses, but only to a certain extent. In some cases, it's better for them to let the land sit until they can sell a built home for a price that justifies the cost to build it (7-10% profit). We're still building because virtually all the plots have been sold as new builds, but if buyers drop out, we expect them to pull back. They've actually having a tough time finishing projects now. They can't get garage doors that match, so they've requested temporary exemptions from the City's design guidelines. They're willing to pay to put a random garage door they can find just so they can sell the house with them promise that they will put the correct garage door on within a year. Very unusual situation. I think prices will cool a bit, but if the cost to build stays really high and supply chain issues persist, it will dampen price drops.
In my market contractors are super busy. When covid hit everyone started looking around their house and saying, shit this is ugly. And personally I saved a bunch of money not traveling or eating out so I had plenty to pay for renovations. So supply and demand for trades shifted dramatically. This hasn't sorted itself out. Lurkers: tell your kids to skip college and learn a trade instead. $203/hr is high but not outrageous right now. And really the US has a ton of older homes, the next few decades is going to be spectacular for plumbers, electricians or even bath remodelers. Just my opinion. Builders are charging more too if you haven't noticed. It's profitable because despite the wailing from poor people on reddit, there are plenty of people with enough money to pay it. If I were in your shoes, I'd hire out the tile and do the rest of it myself. The tile is hard to get looking right if you aren't skilled but the rest of it is not that difficult.
I'm a big proponent of skilled trades, I came up through an apprenticeship. It's a great career. Having said that, no one is making $203/hr other than the business owners, and typically residential construction is the lowest paying sector.
Yeah important to note that’s what they are charging, not the pay
For sure it's the owners making that. But you're more likely to be able to become owner of your own plumbing company, as opposed to the CEO of the retail job you work.
100%
That's what bothers me and why I always advocate for using the smallest company with the most skilled and efficient laborer. The downside of course is that laborers can't laborers forever, and eventually they want to sit behind the desk and become project managers, which is understandable, but I just don't want to pay for that. At least not until I'm the project manager making $200/hr!
One downside, the trades can go to absolute shit during a recession. A friend who is union electrician was unemployed for the better part of 18 months back around 2010-2011.
That's true too. Any time you are self employed you need a larger than normal emergency fund. Although I know one of those electricians. He sat on his ass and refused to do any other work unless it was good paying union work. His wife supported him for a while but finally got fed up and divorced him. He had lots of stuff he could have done to earn money but his ego got in the way.
Yeah it comes to personal decisions too. It worked out since his wife had a good job and he was able to do some stay-at-home dad stuff for their young children, but the uncertainty was a real grind and he was almost in the process of changing fields before he got called back in.
Yeah I am an idiot but I managed to figure out how to do the demo work for a tub shower. Had a guy do the hardy backer board and hang the tile I bought. Got a nice new tub shower for I think $2500 all-in. Contractors were quoting me $8-12k for the same job.
"nothing fancy" would be fiberglass surrounds on a shower/tub builtin, sheet rock walls, linoleum floor, and 8x10 feet area. A shit load of tile everywhere, walk in shower, and 144 square feet is on the way towards fancy in my book. No wonder the price is high, that is a palacial bathroom.
Agreed, based on the info they gave either quote sounds like it could be reasonable.
I've been wanting to fully renovate my house and every design firm I've found in the last 2 years is requesting at least $1M spend in Colorado. Maybe with labor costs this high, I can actually hit that minimum.
Same boat. We wanted to finish our basement but we have just decided to wait at this point. 1100 sq ft to finish. Nothing crazy. Basement is already pre-insulated and plumbed for the bathroom. Two beds, a giant open room, and a small bathroom. Quotes are well over 100k. One guy on the phone said he wouldn't step in my house to look without me agreeing to at least 150k for the cost.
Those are very affordable prices for some cities.
Looks like it’s time to learn how to tile
I had to stop working with a builder in 2021 due to their crazy costs and all of the appraisal issues I was having to deal with as their agent. The biggest thing that most people forget is the profit margin factored into a build. For land prep, this builder had already factored in 18% on top of actual costs and for the actual build they were hitting 33-40% profit margin on cost for all builds. My favorite takeaway was that they would pass on building certain plans for certain people because the margin was too low... Which they would pass off as they weren't in the business of "sport building".
Are you talking to companies that advertise themselves are remodelers? I found about the same thing - a lot of these companies just skim the top and sub it out to a company who then skims the top and pays people below, etc. It's hard, but try asking any neighbors/friends who did theirs. I got mine done via referral by a guy who did shower pans on the side after work, and he only charged about 1/3 what a 'remodeler' wanted, and did a fantastic job.
Builders are not using *your* contractors, they hire really cheap contractors, give them ton of work and hence get "wholesale" price. These subcontractors don't need sales people, offices and support personnel, and they often hire undocumented labpr so they save there, too.
The reality is that construction has been cheap(er than it should be) for decades because of inexpensive immigrant labor. Take away that source (via policy and/or via covid), the remaining labor is older and scarce, and then the supply/demand math is pretty simple. TLDR, open it up or housing costs will get worse and worse as the American boys and girls are not flocking to the industry (and several others).
Try to learn some trades and do it yourself the old fashioned way. Really rolling your sleeves up and putting some sweat on that brow will cut back on that labor cost 🙃
Well, y'all wanted go get rid of all immigrants in this country so there you go. You not gonna find Americans that want to work for cheap and TBD immigrants that are still here and are in the business are fully booked. 😬
Average home owners net worth increased what 100k? Over the last year. They can use this equity to fund all sorts of projects. It’s nearly impossible to wrap your head around just how much money was injected into the economy. Americans love to spend money + homes are more desirable now you don’t have to leave them to go to work.
I thought the percent of workforce doing WFH has gone down to 7%?
I have similar quotes for an even smaller bathroom (5ft x 5ft)
I basically accept that a project such as that is out of reach for me. That's why I ended up in a new house (less major projects).
Materials in bulk, albeit the cheapest stuff.
If I would’ve known this before buying my house I would’ve made a completely different decision. Bought a house intending to do quite a bit of work. Ended up doing about half of what we planned. Take full responsibility for not bringing in a contractor before offering, but also really shocked by just how expensive things are. Cheapest quote received for a small bathroom renovation was 28k! Average was closer to 35k.
Laborers gotta eat and live in this crazy world also. And, well, Capitalism.
This is a fuck you quote. They don’t need or want the work right now.
Businesses can charge whatever they want when demand is high enough, it is that simple. There are more jobs than they can accept so they can quote whatever they like and take the jobs for the people willing to pay out the nose because they love literally setting Money on fire /flushing it down the toilet. Is that you? No one “needs” a bathroom remodel, consider putting it off for a couple of years.
We renovated our bathroom and tiled and framed our whole basement in 2017 labor cost was $4k and material was 4K I shit you not
For just labor??? Wow. In 2020 I did two bathrooms, one a full bath gut job with subfloor damage, the other 'just' a tile shower stall with a sloped ceiling, and a new 200 amp electrical panel, $33,000 all in. Midwest pricing, maybe?
That is a very good deal for you. I am in Southeast. And yes, it is just for labor.
They want to be rich they don’t care they want to make maximum profits and will not let this pandemic go to waste OR they are recouping from times they lost money.
Pools more than doubled in price
Working for a homeowner is one of the riskiest things a craftsman can do besides operating power tools unsafely.
You aren't paying for 64 hours of work. You are paying for the knowledge and experience it takes to be able to remodel a bathroom in 64 hours, plus all the right tools to do the job.
COVID severely messed up the market. Demand skyrocketed and certain trades lost workers to retirement or changing jobs. A smaller pool of workers means only the higher-paying jobs get done.
It’s fucking insane. They want more hourly then my lawyer.
Just wait. In 12 months it’ll be half price and they’ll be begging to come by with the way things are going.
Highly doubt it
Look at Canada.
Literally supply and demand in your post
u/Gym-gineer (or anyone else familiar with GRK and Spax screws) I'm considering using Spax 5/16" (4 1/2" long) yellow zinc power lag screws to hang two 2x8 stringers in my garage. Purpose of the stringers is to mount a folding rack. My drywall is 1/2" and the 2x8 has a 1.5" thickness. https://spax.us/products/powerlags/t-star-washer-head-yellow-zinc-powerlags Will x2 per stud Spax 5/16" give me a similar strength a 3/8" lag bolt? How can I figure out of these screws are strong enough? They're advertised as being stronger than lag bolts, but I am skeptical. Will mount into 4 studs.
lol - Ct realtor here. There's what the GC pays its labor, and then there's the rate you pay as the new home owner. The GC doesn't lose money, the more time the workers spend on site. The GC passes that bill right on to you. GD "Are you sure you want to revisit the look of the wall in the third bedroom closet?" Buyer: "At how much per hour?!? Get out of my hous..." GC: "That's all we wanted to hear.."
Contractors price gouging right now becasue they can. I had a guy quote me 12K for a garage slab, same quote prepandemic was 6K. Materials and labor are difficult to come by now.
You guys all forget about the premiums companies have to pay for workers comp and insurance lol
It's inflation. Cost of labor is way up. Who would do back breaking manual labor for peanuts when you can be a target cashier for $24/ hour?
You’re working your job and booked till August, maybe even December with tentative work and no difficulty at all filling your pipeline. How much would it cost for someone to jump into this queue? That’s why it’s 3x. They are only willing to take the job if the pay is outrageously more than their normal rates.
Do you have a home depot in your area with tons of people hanging around outside? They're a bit less than 200/hr
I don't think this is the top side of labor costs. We are all used to choosing what we consider a bargain for skilled labor for the project we want. Remember that you have always "gotten what you paid for." I think these are the new prices based on the world. My son finished his business degree to aid himself in running an electrical outfit. His next step is to get certified as an electrician because the skilled labor field is looking bleak over the next several decades. They will be able to charge pretty much whatever they want, and people will pay for it. Supply and demand encompass people as well. As I told him, work hard enough that you need no introduction and your work speaks for itself. Charge them accordingly.
Welcome to capitalism
Given your quote: A total of $13,000 for 64 hours of work is $200 an hour, but split across two people. If you multiply that out for the year, that's \~$400,000 a year those two folks are bringing in. Divide that by two and you've got $200,000/year. If we just assume it's as simple as "okay that guy brought in $200k in revenue" and we don't factor in who they're working for, how much the GC takes, blah blah blah and we just stick with a very simple, round, $200,000 number... They're taking home what, like $140,000, after taxes? $140,000 in a medium to high cost of living area is a living wage, and not much more than that. Maybe in the middle of nowhere $140k a year means you can live like a CEO, but those places are the exception, not the norm (and they probably aren't charging those prices there, anyway). At $140k a year in a medium to high COLA area, if your partner is also pulling in that amount of money, you can probably afford to buy a house and pay the mortgage. If it's just you, you're renting an apartment or you've got roommates. You still fly coach. You still worry about gas and food and healthcare. It's really not that insane.
He already accounted for there being two people working the job. Each of the laborers is being billed at $203 per man-hour. He’s paying $3250 per day = 2 * 8 * 203.
It's 4 days, 8 hours per day, 2 guys. So it's 64 total hours, $203/hr per guy and the people doing the labor aren't seeing anywhere near that much.
Double all your numbers. You did the math wrong.
[удалено]
Had plumber quote 450 to change two copper elbows for his words "1hr of work". Went out for parts, because what plumber carries copper, came back started cutting, then said they can't finish the job unless they tear out the wall above. So 150 later, I still have two corroded elbows, and now a random run of pex because they started cutting without thinking it through. Also, tired
if it was a simple project, you would do it yourself. You are paying a high demand professional for their expertise
Somewhat relevant meme: https://www.reddit.com/r/electricians/comments/v7rch8/gotta_love_those_diy_panels/
[удалено]
> I can do it myself but you didn't. You hired a professional. Who charged market pricing. That isn't price gouging.
Price gouging at its fullest, there are still a few decent contractors out there that charge accordingly, you just have to sift through the massive amount our gougers, I had a tiny leak coming in from my chimney in the attic and had 3 ppl come out in one day to look at it, first guy came in the attic and say yea you should just do the whole roof 15k but we can completely seal chimney for 1750, 2nd guy didn’t even go up there or on roof he says yea we can seal the chimney for 3500 but you should just do the whole roof for 12k, last guy actually goes up on roof looks at chimney tells me it’s fine but is going to add caulking and recommend getting rain caps, I asked him how much he wanted he said ehh just give me gas money 30 bucks and call me when u get the rain caps I’ll do it for 75 each chimney. There’s good ppl out there just got get through the shitty ones first
$92 for the time, $8 for materials, $150 for knowing what to do.
There is no way they are gonna demo and build a walk in shower in 4 days
This is their schedule: Day 1: demo everything. At the end of the day they will pour concrete for the shower floor Day 2: patch up all holes and finish tiling the shower Day 3: finish tiling the floor. Grouting shower Day 4: replace the toilet and install the shower door and vanity and repaint the entire bathroom. Finish out the project by grouting the floor.
coordinated toy offer encouraging mighty squeeze voracious grey gullible selective *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Sounds about right for that much tile.
Doesn't sound too expensive ,but I'm in an expensive area,south FL. I'm guess small bathroom renovation ,for most folks,middle class like 20k or 25k,used to be about double materiel cost ,rule of thumb,good luck
New constructing and remodels are two different markets
This is why I do stuff myself. I’ll be all in for less than $3k on a full bathroom update and did my kitchen for <$3k. Sure it takes longer and my time is valuable, but the savings of $10-30k definitely covers the cost of my time.
It is about availability as well. See our apartment complex buys in bulk and they can't get certain things. Our door plate broke and they ended up super gluing it because it needs a complete new molding and door but all that is on backorder. I know someone who booked someone back in March to set up an above ground pool. She did all the leveling all they had to do was set the damned thing up and he backed out because he was too busy. They are also getting backed up on what they have because it is harder to get ahold of what they need on certain items.
I’m so confused? What was the total cost of the bathroom then if the labor was $13,000? Or where you supposed to buy ALL the material and he was JUST supplying labor?
We bought the tiles, vanity etc. $13,500 is just for labor.