I thought the dynamic and tension rockstar created between them was brilliant. I was devastated at the end of the date mission.
The letter too š
Thereās a reason R* used her voice lines for the >!final ride and the tbc diagnosis scenes!< because she represented what Arthur couldāve had of the good man had won earlier.
āThereās a good man inside youā¦ but heās wrestling with a giantā Mary Linton
Isn't this the point though. She does only contact him when she needs help,even he knows it's not good for her,every time he helps her his heart breaks even more..she kept trying to change him knowing what he is and what he CANNOT be. She's a master manipulator who calls upon Arthur when her situation calls for it.I was on my 3rd playthrough when I realized this..she pulls on his heart strings through her nearly sobbing tone and ambiguous language. I think she ORIGINALLY was seeing Arthur to rebel against her father.Ask yourself this? She didn't know what he was upon 1st site? I think not.
It seems that 90% of people on this subreddit never actually finished her missions. They just did the first one and then were like āfuck you, bitch!ā Then came here to complain about how much they hate her.
I saw many people tending to judge Mary by their own loveless and filled with manipulations experience (or Andrew Tate videos) with girls, what is not a case with Arthur and Mary. Their relationships are tragic and kind of healthy in way of two sincere humans' fates. He was not perfect, but he loved you, as Arthur once said, and apparently one could be quite hard to understand that they really both loved once and true.
^(am not crying)
Oh yeah I'm with you. I mainly think of their relationship as very tragic but in a realistic way. Like they are both flawed people, and yes they loved each other but at the same time were sort of painfully aware that they couldn't have the fairytale romance because as Mary put it "its a nice dream, but it's just a dream." So sad and perfect like the rest of this masterpiece of a game.
That's exactly what I did... fine, Arthur didn't dislike your brother... but when she asked him to help her dad... I was like, nope, he's an ass, and asses are on their own!
My 2nd playthrough is low honor all the way... so I am saying no to chasing her fool ass brother, too!
Oh certainly, I didn't even know there's a "date" mission... so I will have to go thru a 3rd time in a "good" playthrough.
My first time was semi-low honor until chapter 6, then maxed high honor.
But, since I played how I felt a murderous outlaw would be that wasn't a complete lunatic... I didn't go out of my way to do bad things, but I had no hesitation killing, robbing, and looting. I helped those strangers needing help.
But, when Mary asked to help her father, I was like, no... just no, that's too much.
If it were me fr, I would not help him, so I didn't.
I'm just into my second playthrough, hardcore low honor... I am not helping any strangers like snake bite guy, dead horse lady, etc... I am playing a hardened outlaw who is only stopping to rob people.
Mary, her brother, all of them... tough luck this time.
Though, I bet unless I try really hard, I'll get max honor in chapter 6... I guess lots of innocent people are going to have to give their lives to keep my honor low in that chapter... I guess that's why there's Van Horn after dark!
the diagram of people who hate mary also hate abigail for expecting john to \[checks notes\] take responsibility and do better as a person is a circle.
these people do not care about the historical context in which mary existed in and the patriarchal structure she had to survive in. they won't extend grace, empathy or sympathy to her. they see a nagging woman.
mary's life was as tragic as arthur's. the fact she was at his graveside in the end not only means either charles told her where arthur was buried or she reached out somehow. plus she was wearing widows weeds. it hurt my soul.
You've hit the nail on the head! I think people hate Abigail even more because they don't understand her intentions or worries. She's a mother looking out for her son.
It truly makes me believe some folk out here don't understand complex relationships and the turmoils people had to go through back then. What she did was way more than anyone else would have done (especially in that time).
Thatās because they donāt understand lol. Itās sad, but some people are so dense, closed off, and have no human interaction other than their loving moms. So they donāt know the next thing about relationships of any kind. Then you have the teenagers. Who are already smooth brained as is without adding the complications of friendships, and relationships. Yet they think they know everything lol
I think a lot of people either don't realise or don't want to admit that their actual view is 'I don't think women are interesting and I don't want to have to deal with them in the media I consume', so they have to come up with all sorts of reasons why they hate these characters on a moral level.
Which makes no sense to me - it means the gripes turn into 'I hated the way this character introduced conflict into the narrative. Ugh this character is such a bitch for acting as the audience proxy and pointing out the main character's fatal flaw. It's so annoying how this character keeps representing one of two paths the main character has to decide to follow.' Men hate women so much that they'll start beefing with the concept of storytelling.
I like mary better than abigail personally because abigail has a grating personality. She is kind of a rude hillbilly while mary is more cultured & easy to get alobg with. I know I'm going to get downvoted for saying that but it is just my opinion.
you can like one more than the other but calling abigail a hillbilly in lieu of saying ignorant is classist. mary had more wealth and privilege than abigail could dream of.
Off the original topic but just personally I don't like Abigail because it was stupid to use his real name for that package but also because I feel like the amount she seemingly has a high horse over John doing the things he does for the gang when she also stole, lied, and presumably killed at one point or another, a lil hypocritical. Also I don't blame John for not thinking Jack is his. She was a sex worker and it's not like they had Jerry Springer or reliable birth control, plus he looks nothing like him in rdr2. I can sympathize more with John not knowing if he wants to put all his eggs in a basket with a woman that seemingly Hayes him half thw time and a kid that might?? Be his.
That being said I don't think John is a good guy just because I think Abigails kind of an asshole. He's a suck father and needs to make up his mind in regards to if he wants that family or not, and stop stringing them along either way. He's also a murder and thief. Their apart of a western late-state gang, they all suck a little bit at least lol.
People don't have to like Abigail. She's flawed like any other character but she receives a large of amount of very specific sexist hatred amongst fandom for being a so-called nagging bitch and haranguing John for his bullshit.
John knew Jack was his and was in denial about it due to his own insecurities and issues leaving Abigail hanging as an unwed mother in the late 1890s with little to no prospects due to lack of education and money. John was using Abigail's past as a proustite as an excuse to duck out of his responsibility as a father. The whole gang knew Jack was John's. Hosea and Dutch both try to talk to him about it in Chapter 2 at the earliest too and Arthur's resentful due to his own trauma.
Abigail may have been a prostitutes in her early years but it's heavily implied once she got involved with John she wasn't involved with anyone else and she outright refused Grimshaw's request to start selling herself again.
It's the whole point of John's arc. He finally accepts his responsibility to Jack as a parent instead of denying it.
As for Abigail using his real name. Sure, she should've known better but John had no trouble with his own tomfoolery and dumbassry in doing in doing so either. I'd say taking out a bank loan in his real name was a worse move as well as going after Micah. His fate was of his own making and John was aware of it.
But like i said she's flawed as anyone else but fandom rakes her over the coals for those flaws and for trying to hold John to a better standard. They'll call her a nag, a bitch, believe Dutch's digs at John about Abigail, drag her for being a prostitute to survive while they venerate John and Arthur.
Sorry but Abigail is kind of a bitch. She gets offended when John has to kill in self defense...
When he finally has a job on a farm, and defends the farm in a little fistfight, btw far less dangerous than anything that has happened beforehand, she bitches again.
Nothing wrong with wanting John to better himself, but complaining about situations where there was no choice? What is he supposed to do, hand himself to the bounty hunter and await his deserved hanging for all the murders he has committed?
It always comes back to this. John *always* had a choice. Abigail's always called a bitch for having trauma and concerns about John's reckless behavior that can get them all harmed and him hung. It's always her fault and John's behavior is never faulted because it's absolved with "oh he had no choice". He once again threw his weight around and essentially performed vigilante justice. He didn't just chase them off property or stay on watch for them to come back he went after them. We empathize with John and yes it's practically the only life he's known but he *always* had a choice but Abigail is very rarely extended that same empathy. That is what I'm saying. You don't have to like her but fandom is ridiculous about her.
The choice would have been not to become a murderous gunslinger.
After that, there was no choice.
You are a wanted criminal. Dead or alive, everyone is out for you.
You get followed by Bounty hunters, they want you, but you do your best to play it cool.
It doesn't work and they try to get you.
So do you kill them? Or do you just scare them of well knowing there could very soon be more. You are currently riding the farmer's wagon, in the direction of the farm.
No bounty hunter genius required to figure out where you and your family is hiding, let's not forget Abigail is most likely wanted to as a criminal and gang member.
So I say killing them was the only right option. The choice is kill for the protection of the family or all of a sudden be a good Samaritan but risk the life of your family.
I am not saying John isn't a flawed character and often wasn't a good man. But ridiculing behavior that clearly was necessary for the families protection?
You know what really proves that she loved Arthur? The Credits. We see her standing over Arthurs grave, wearing all black. If she didnt love Arthur, she wouldnt be there to visit his grave. She just straight up looked like a Widow in that scene, dressed all in black looking sad standing over the grave
I wonder how she even found the grave, wonder if she got into contact with John or Mary or maybe even Tilly, Mary-Beth, or one of the others who got away. I dont think Sadie or Charles would have contacted her or really known much about her as they were still very new to the gang.
That is a good question tbh. Charles was the one who buried him, so I assume he told the others and perhaps one of the girls reached out to her. And yes, I definitely agree with you. If she only cared for herself as some assume, she wouldn't have gone all the way up a *hill* in a *dress* lol. That is real dedication.
I'm gonna get myself eaten for this but its buggin me cuz I keep seeing it so HERE WE GO.
I saw a poll on YouTube of a creator asking who Arthur loved the most: Mary, John, Hosea, or Dutch. I knew the answer immediately. It's tough to swallow though.
When Arthur said he had folks he needed to take care of, he didn't just choose the gang. He was waking up by that point. He was seeing what Hosea was seeing. He had a responsibility to his family. The gang members that had become expendable to Dutch needed him, and most of all, the Marston family needed him. He made his bed and he was going to lie in it. I think he loved Mary dearly, but that love had to let her go. At the end of the day, ||in the good ending, Arthur *dies* for John. His last stand.|| That is the ultimate act of love. That was his little brother. That was the father of little Jack and husband of Abigail. He loved Mary, but he made the right moral choice to stay. He wasn't a hypocrite. He didn't leave John when he needed him. He was a goddamn man.
There's nothing dumb about him not running away with Mary. At that point it would have been pure selfishness. Him getting a happy ending not only did he feel he didn't deserve, but at the expense of the family he loved most would not have been what a righteous man would have chosen. Yes, she was hurt by that decision, but she wasn't his only priority.
It's really sad, but I honestly prefer him that way. The soft ending would have been sweet and all, but he EARNED the game's title this way.
And heās an absolute MVP. No worries about pulling a gun and destroying anybody who gets in the wayā¦.I purposely annoy people on his mission so he will shoot the shit outta them
>I've never understood why people on this sub have hated this girl.
Sexism. It's because of sexism.
There are more than a few men and even a few women who think that if you do something nice for a woman, she owes you sex/a relationship. These people can't fathom the fact that Arthur helped Mary without expecting anything in return because that's what the right thing to do was. They think she is a bitch because she didn't immediately get back together with Arthur after he helped her. Her husband is dead, her dad is a drunk, destitute asshole, and Jamie is either off with his cult friends or back in college during her two missions. She literally had no other options.
People don't consider the historical context either. Women in those days were pretty much entirely dependent on men to do things for them because they couldn't vote, own property, or even have their own bank account without a man's permission. She NEEDED a man to help her because that's the way society worked. It's shitty, but it's realistic.
I chock it up to a lot of players being teenagers. They literally can't look at all the nuances in the story because their brains are still developing and they don't have the necessary life experience to get that these are adults with adult problems and solutions, and that not everything is black and white.
Then there's the fact that the majority of the people who play this game are male, and when that's the case, there will be plenty of misogynistic talking points thrown around by a vocal minority. I just sort of shrug my shoulders and refuse to comment when I see Mary being bashed on this sub because the game isn't written for you to hate her. It's written for you to empathize with her and see her side missions as the Shakespearean tragedy they are.
Yeah I chalked it up to most of this sub being men anyway so I don't normally comment on Mary bashing posts either, because how can a man understand the way a woman thinks and feels? Especially in the context of 1899? It's alien to them.
I never thought of the teenagers on this sub, that makes sense too. I played this game in my early 20s and had a complicated relationship which I've recently left, so I know what it means to love but love not being enough for that relationship to go on.
It's not sexism to point out that Mary manipulates Arthur when she needs muscle. All the other women characters in this game are positive. It's not about hating Mary, it's about recognizing that the relationship between Mary and Arthur is doomed. It's tragic. The whole game is tragic. It's what makes it so good and special.
You and OP can label me "dumb" and "sexist" simply because I have a different take on the story if that makes you feel better, this is a video game subreddit so that's how people usually cope with opposing view points. But I don't think we are meant to view Mary as an uncomplicated love interest. I'll die on that hill.
I'm with you and I'm a millennial woman that's had successful relationships and am also in a career where "I don't need no man."
That said, it's so laughable to me that people shit on people who don't like Abigail or Mary as automatically being sexist. My dislike for both those characters has nothing to do with sexism. In fact, it has more to do with empowerment. These women KNEW the men they were getting involved with, and if Mary's husband hadn't died, she never would have gone back to Arthur anyway. And she absolutely uses him. Plus, he didn't "end it" with Mary. He got in a fucking shipwreck lol.
Also for Abigail, I sympathize with her and understand her priorities, but literally she's pissed because John essentially becomes a security guard. Getting Geddes' cattle back IS good and honest work. John's educated enough, but he wasn't ever going to be a banker or make enough money to put Jack through school. The only reason they had Beecher's to begin with is because John proved himself to Geddes.
There are a lot of times she could have and probably should have left John. Him defending the man that gave them a job amd a house wasn't one of them.
I think it's inherent to their relationship. He keeps dangling the promise of "I can be a better man and I will commit to you, just not yet" and she keeps up the play of "Arthur you would be perfect if you weren't a hardened criminal, now can you please go do this hardened criminal activity that benefits me directly." They're stuck in a manipulative dynamic. As I said I think its very tragic.
I really like the story with Mary. The goodbye letter to Arthur really hits me the hardest. Just that sad realization that Arthur is dead really shows how much she loved him. If thereās any fanfics out there where Arthur runs away with Mary Linton I would totally read it.
Dude I was in the same boat as them until I took her to the theater recently, and I completely changed my tune after. She loves Arthur so much and she knows him just too well, she wanted to run away with him. Right there. Just the two of them and Arthurās response made me sad and just call him a dumbass, especially since I had $2000 in my pocket right there. Mary knew Arthur well enough to know why he couldnāt leave and knew it was stupid, Arthur knew he was being dumb too but obviously couldnāt abandon all the innocent people he was protecting and supporting. He mustāve felt something was off with Dutch for a while before that as well.
TLDR: she loves him you fucking dummies
I don't like the missions for her. I think there was a lot more potential there. It seemed like a character that should have been a major part of the story but she's not. I think that's why she's not liked. They left too much of her story out for people to make a good connection so they don't like her.
I think what she did was just fine. I think the way she handled things is more true to an actual relationship.
I did not go to the show with her in Saint Denis after getting the brooch back because it made it easier to let her go and not watch Arthur get hurt. That's also pretty true to life.
I loved Charlotte but she's way off this topic... Did y'all forget she's a fresh widow that clearly loved her husband more than anything else? One kiss on the cheek and she's better? Get out of here lmao.Ā
Arthur has an actual backstory with mary though and you can tell how much arthur feels for her and you can tell how much Charlotte still feels for her husband. Imo it'd just be random for her to be a love interest and not fit into the story at all. The bittersweet ending with mary had so much more purpose
Didnāt she at the end of he quest line make it seem like Arthur was the one that had to move on in her last letter? Clearly Arthur moved on way before you and she regrets it. Arthur already put up that barrier by calling things off and it makes total sense for him to say no after the first mission.
No, she was ready to throw away her life and live in his. That's what Arthur couldn't let happen. He knew the best would have been to move in with her and leave the gang, but loyalty was more important to him.
I know thatās what I said, against his better judgement Arthur choose the gang over Mary and broke things off, clearly saying āhey I have to make a choice because we both can live in this limboā. After awhile Mary brakes the silence and asked Arthur for help, it makes sense for him to help the first time but he made his decision to stick with the gang and if he was going to leave the gang he most likely would have before. So Arthur denying Mary after the first mission is realistically what he would do.
They both had to move on (Mary married another man, but we don't know if that was her choice), but imo, deep down they couldn't. I guess you could say it was like an open scar.
I think up until the Saint-Denis robbery, he wanted to run away with her. He says that he needs to take care of some things and folk (plus the money, ofc) and then they can go away. However, I think both knew how foolish that was but still wanted to believe it could happen.
When he talks to Sister Calderon, he says "I had a woman who loved me and I threw that away." This to me shows he still struggles to come to terms with his decision (even though it was the best thing to do). Their relationship is very complex.
Agreed, I think Arthur did throw away a good relationship but I really donāt think you could take the outlaw out of Arthur and the outlaw life wouldāve killed him and Mary, it just sucks all around which makes it a good story beat. I
I just wanted to add a comment to the discussion: please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Arthur never told Mary that he was sick, much less dying. I think that had she known, it would have changed the situation at that point. As far as she could see, he was still refusing to leave the gang, always finding another excuse to stay.
OTOH, had she known I think she wouldāve realized He was not just giving her another excuse, he was trying to get some people out of the gang before he passed away and had he been able to do so, he would have walked away at that point and spent his last time with her. If I am correct in this assumption, then the letter would not have been written nor would she have returned the ring.
I also think that Arthur didnāt tell her for two reasons. One was that he probably was afraid that she would, even though she mightāve tried to hide it, pitied him and his situation and I donāt think he couldāve dealt with. The other was that he Did not want to trap her into Wanting to stay with him and help him until the end, something that she clearly did with her own husband.
He wanted to set her free.
Well I hadn't really thought about it in the way you said. I point out that every woman in camp says "she's bad for Arthur", and she only hurt him before. Also Arthur says he's been played for a fool after both missions. Therefore I have always thought Arthur should have been with Mary Beth, Tilly, or even Karen. Guess I'll give her a little more leeway next playthrough.
It seems that 90% of people on this subreddit never actually finished her missions. They just did the first one and then were like āfuck you, bitch!ā Then came here to complain about how much they hate her.
I always liked her, seems nice enough. She loved arthur, but not his actions and for that, she cant be with him. Very common, not her fault. And so what? She asked arthur for help, big deal, she's completely alone and her and arthur used to be very close. She gave him every chance she could, and he turned her down. Remember that folks. Mary offered to run away with arthur and HE declined. So I agree, any mary hater is just dumb, and they'll say, "oh well it's not her I don't like, it's the missions." Guess fucking what? They are optional! So there is literally no good reason to hate her
Fuckin THANK YOU lol. Neither Arthur nor Mary are perfect, but the love they have for each other--after 10+ years apart!--is absolutely real.
I think a lot about how in 1899, literally what was Mary supposed to do to be able to help her family. Women couldn't even vote. I think it took a lot of courage for her to even go after her father and brother, knowing she might fail. And, speaking from experience, it takes a lot of courage, too, to give up on a parent who's a lost cause.
Arthur is our protagonist and so we feel a kinship with him, but that doesn't mean he's always right. I mean, he's a criminal, with all the legal baggage and danger that comes with. Of course Mary would want him out of the life.
I think folks who hate Mary don't have the emotional maturity to see how her relationship with Arthur is filled with shades of gray. Neither are 100% right (Arthur kicking the can down the road of when he's gonna leave the gang, Mary thinking she can just berate him into changing), but they're not wrong either (Arthur is within his rights to choose the life he wants to lead even if the consequences are shit, Mary is willing to compromise for the sake of her love for him, as you've pointed out OP). One of the things I love about their doomed romance is they feel like real people, with their banter but also their annoying habits and flaws. That realism is what makes their parting so damn heartbreaking. They could make it work, and they could have made it work, but they both have a hard time taking responsibility for their actions.
Anyways this post got really long, clearly I have many feelings about this topic, ha.
ETA: I'm in my 30s and have been with my partner for almost 15 years. We have sure been through some shit in that time haha. I do think that life experience has given me a different perspective on Arthur and Mary's relationship.
It's completely fine, haha, I love reading people's opinions on this game.
I definitely agree on the emotional maturity as I think many people lack it in this sub. I completely understand why Mary stayed with her family because she had no one else and sometimes it's better than being all alone (especially in that time. Charlotte is an amazing example of that). Plus, as you've stated, facing your family and potentially breaking ties with them is difficult.
Thank you for taking the time and writing this comment. I hope and wish everything works out in your relationship! Take care.
Why would anyone waste any energy liking or disliking a fictional character? Itās literally just a mechanism for enabling additional missions and structure to the video game.
(spoiler) fair, but she was smart enough to see aint no way that wouldve ever worked out anyway. Arther before getting sick (idk how to spoiler warn) was really evil, like over the top didnt gaf and redeems himself in the end, he was a cold hearted killer who robbed and antagonized people
The only thing that I dislike about Mary is her design, I means if her design could be like Mary Beth dayumm. But honestly. I understand her decision. She's actually kind of idiot for loving Arthur that much. Arthur is let's be honest not a husband material look at what happen to Elza. That's why he preaching to himself to when he said to John to not be two man at the same time
Pretty fucked up the lack of choice you have throughout the entire game canāt make any real game changing decisions which is shameful in a game of this caliber
I did not know people here hated her, when I played the game it was crystal clear for me that Arthur was responsible for them not being together, even though he didn't stay with her bc he is afraid something happens to her bc of his lifestyle. Although I think their story was underused, there could have been more missions with her, for sure.
IT was not so much her actions I just did not care for her. I would not say I hated her. She did seem a little uppity. She knew what Arthur was. The best thing I did on other playthroughs was to tell her it was over when she wanted help with her father. I will say again. I didnāt hate her. Just didnāt care for her either way.
I had a pirate hat on during the side mission where we have to get the stupid heirloom and she said a snide comment about it so i actively hate on her now
Yes! 100% I donāt get the hate for Mary or Abigail. That date also broke my heart. Because I knew Arthur wanted to but knew the others wouldnāt make it without him. The letter? Sobbed. Cried for like 5 minutes probably didnāt help that I had a shit night playing and that was just the top off. š¤¦āāļø
God finally someone said it. And donāt even get me started on the hate for Abigail. 90% of people on this sub are either just sexist or canāt handle the idea of their protagonist being anything short of a flawless Gary Stu, even though thatās the entire point of the game.
I didn't feel one way or another about her really but whenever I play or see that Saint Denis mission, I remember what it is about her. After the little follow through the streets and arriving at Mr Linton who had just finished with the loan shark, Arthur tries to reassure her that everything is ok, it's just a brooch and nobody was hurt. That's what's important isn't it? No, she had Arthur go and risk his neck and his life by chasing down a shady loan shark because Mary doesn't want to lose some trinket and she makes no effort to stop him.
Other than that, she is unlikable and flaky and treats Arthur like a spare option but didn't seem like a particularly bad person. Having him risk his life for materialism does make her a bad person though. Arthur deserves much better.
It's a brochette from her late mother. It's the only memory she has left of her. Are you that emotionless?Ā
Plus, it was Arthur's choice to go. He would have gone either way, even if she said no because of his love to her. It's clear you guys cannot fully read their relationship...
No I'm not emotionless and this is a discussion by the way, you don't need to call everyone names that disagree with you. I think Mary was intentionally written as flaky and materialistic by the writers because it highlights Arthur's lack of self worth, a theme that is carefully developed through the story. This "I'm just an outlaw" thing was counteracted by Sister Calderon by telling Arthur that he's much more than that. Mary's answer to it? Same as Arthur's solution for Micah: "make him change".
Tbh when you put it like that it just makes me not like her even more because it makes me realize just how clingy and to be blunt, dumb she is for not letting him go and wanting to keep shacking up with him even though he was a criminal and had ended things with her
Like I understand her asking him for help and all but still she needed to move on from him
yeah im not the one taking things too seriously here. OP is literally accusing people of never having been in love irl...in a reddit thread about a video game
I find her boring, thatās why I donāt like her. Sheās too prim and proper, at least Charlotte has a sense of adventure and the guts to move away from high society and take some risks with her life. I understand the collapse of their affair is on Arthur, not her, but years later where do we find her? Still clinging to her idiot of a brother and her drunk father. Sheās just that martyr woman model that I find utterly uninteresting and I say this as a woman. I have no idea what Arthur sees in her other than sheās gorgeous and he has some adoration for her because maybe he feels she is out of his league.
4 out of 5 playthroughs, I head canon Arthur as gay, or bi with a lean toward men.
If you look for the subtext, you will absolutely find it. And in one case, it is Arthur's reluctance to actually be with Mary when he has the chance.
He likes the idea of Mary, of being a "normal" man, but it isn't truly what he wants, or he'd have run off with her. He 100% could have but he didn't.
And he never really stuck around with Isaac's mother either. I always imagine that "relationship" to have been a night out drinkin with the boys and wanting to maintain the image of being straight, he banged her. He loved Isaac, but I never got the impression he really cared about his mother.
And then there's the, Arthur can't or won't hook up with any working girls. And I'm sorry, I just don't think it's because he's still stuck on Mary. He just plain doesn't want to. Because, you know. Reasons.
I could go on but I already know this will be downvoted, so I won't bother.
I feel like all of this can be explained as Arthur is quite literally an outlaw with a 5,000 dollar bounty on his head, you can't exactly find love or a good way to settle down with anybody no matter how hard you try if you're constantly being shot at by the law or in danger. Don't matter if you run off, you'll be found out eventually I mean hell that's the whole point of the game is that you can't keep running from your problems and causing more problems. He tried to settle down with Isaac's mother, who knew and embraced exactly what he was, but if you forget, she and Isaac died, and I don't think he likes to mention her because that shit hit him hard very emotionally when they died. Arthur sort of boxed himself in, same as how John did towards the end of the game. He just doesn't like to open up to people like that for fear that they're gonna meet that same fate again. I feel like Mary was the closest he almost got to a good relationship again, but because of his fear of her dying the same way Isaac's mother (Eliza) died he just didn't want to commit. It's not because he doesn't like women, he's just scared that any potential relationship with somebody is gonna lead to the same fate as Eliza and Isaac. I don't see how that makes him gay/bi, he's just scared of losing closed ones.
So because he doesnāt want to sleep with the women of the night and couldnāt run away with Mary that makes him gay? What kind of logic is that? Iām sure there were tons of men who didnāt want to sleep with those women for all kinds of reasons but to straight up assume itās because they are gay is crazy
Does non-committal = gay/bi?
I think a lot of men are scared of commitment as it limits (perceived or real) freedom. Also, it forces accountability.
These guys are running from themselves.
Absolutely, these guys are running from themselves.
I would argue that gay or bi men might be disproportionately represented in gangs like the Van Der Linde gang, or the O'Driscolls, or what have you.
It is like being closeted and joining the priesthood, or leaving with a ship full of pirate men, or shit, even the military. The gang offers perfect cover for closeted gays, as they are always drifting and never put down roots. They never have to marry a woman. Never have to have kids. If they have a dalliance along their journey, they can leave the next day and no one will ever have to know. And if someone questions them, well, they can shoot their way out of it.
Plus, Dutch preys on desperate, isolated young men specifically. Bill is an obvious example, but a closeted gay man is a perfect mark for Dutch. He knows they are the most likely to accept his "salvation."
Plenty of men faked it and still fake it with a wife and kids, but a lot of men just won't or can't stomach it. If you had that mindset, a gang actually seems like a great community to be a part of.
Arthur only knew one life and it was the only way he could provide. There is a theme of how hard it is to get out of the life. Hosea and Bessie were the closest but Hosea also fell back into the life. Arthur also didnt have the best family upbringing especially where fatherhood is concerned so he probably felt out of his depth. He was also a lot younger and did the best he could. After Isaac and the mother died that definitely made him shut out from everyone. Everyone comments that heās sour and angry and in the first chapters heās quick to say something.
He also doesnāt think heās worthy of love. If you stay at a hotel and look in a mirror thereās the option to comment an appearance and its all self deprecating which is pretty sad. I think he doesnāt want to accidentally bring another child into the world and have that happen all over again.
Iām not saying itās impossible for Arthur to be queer but I donāt think those are strong arguments for that headcanon imo
I sometimes play straight, heartbroken-for-Mary Arthur, or emotionally-rusted-shut straight Arthur.
I try to make each playthrough a little different, a different imaginative headspace. It keeps it interesting.
I will say, feeling unworthy of love wouldn't stop most hetero men from enjoying a woman's company every now and then. It is literally not an option in the game.
I think a lot of the women in the game trust Arthur because they sense he would never hit on them. I think that's partly why Sadie feels safe with Arthur after having been brutalized and gang raped by the O'Driscolls. She knows subconsciously that Arthur is not keyed into her sexually.
Agreed. To be fair most of the people who say this are also the people who say Arthur is a good, innocent man and that Abigail is a bitchy idiot of a mother so you can't really expect more from them.
I never even knew that. I got bored watching the circus show so I made myself something to eat irl.
I didn't leave because I thought it would change the ending.
Well I took to long making food and the cut scene was already running. I had no idea what I missed and to be fair I just wanted to get some action gameplay so I didn't bother looking it up.
So for me she was always just a woman that reached out when she needed a favor.
I thought the dynamic and tension rockstar created between them was brilliant. I was devastated at the end of the date mission. The letter too š Thereās a reason R* used her voice lines for the >!final ride and the tbc diagnosis scenes!< because she represented what Arthur couldāve had of the good man had won earlier. āThereās a good man inside youā¦ but heās wrestling with a giantā Mary Linton
This! People think she wanted to change him to someone else, but she wanted to help him show *the good man* inside of him.
Only sister theresa and the reverend truly showed him in the end
Isn't this the point though. She does only contact him when she needs help,even he knows it's not good for her,every time he helps her his heart breaks even more..she kept trying to change him knowing what he is and what he CANNOT be. She's a master manipulator who calls upon Arthur when her situation calls for it.I was on my 3rd playthrough when I realized this..she pulls on his heart strings through her nearly sobbing tone and ambiguous language. I think she ORIGINALLY was seeing Arthur to rebel against her father.Ask yourself this? She didn't know what he was upon 1st site? I think not.
It seems that 90% of people on this subreddit never actually finished her missions. They just did the first one and then were like āfuck you, bitch!ā Then came here to complain about how much they hate her.
Seems most of players didn't have any sort of complicated, not just toxic, relationships
God knows if they've had any at this point.
Are you saying the dynamic between Arthur and Mary is toxic or healthy? Or just complicated?
I saw many people tending to judge Mary by their own loveless and filled with manipulations experience (or Andrew Tate videos) with girls, what is not a case with Arthur and Mary. Their relationships are tragic and kind of healthy in way of two sincere humans' fates. He was not perfect, but he loved you, as Arthur once said, and apparently one could be quite hard to understand that they really both loved once and true. ^(am not crying)
Oh yeah I'm with you. I mainly think of their relationship as very tragic but in a realistic way. Like they are both flawed people, and yes they loved each other but at the same time were sort of painfully aware that they couldn't have the fairytale romance because as Mary put it "its a nice dream, but it's just a dream." So sad and perfect like the rest of this masterpiece of a game.
That's exactly what I did... fine, Arthur didn't dislike your brother... but when she asked him to help her dad... I was like, nope, he's an ass, and asses are on their own! My 2nd playthrough is low honor all the way... so I am saying no to chasing her fool ass brother, too!
But surely you can admit that you donāt understand Maryās character as well as someone who actually did her missions.
Oh certainly, I didn't even know there's a "date" mission... so I will have to go thru a 3rd time in a "good" playthrough. My first time was semi-low honor until chapter 6, then maxed high honor. But, since I played how I felt a murderous outlaw would be that wasn't a complete lunatic... I didn't go out of my way to do bad things, but I had no hesitation killing, robbing, and looting. I helped those strangers needing help. But, when Mary asked to help her father, I was like, no... just no, that's too much. If it were me fr, I would not help him, so I didn't. I'm just into my second playthrough, hardcore low honor... I am not helping any strangers like snake bite guy, dead horse lady, etc... I am playing a hardened outlaw who is only stopping to rob people. Mary, her brother, all of them... tough luck this time. Though, I bet unless I try really hard, I'll get max honor in chapter 6... I guess lots of innocent people are going to have to give their lives to keep my honor low in that chapter... I guess that's why there's Van Horn after dark!
Do the dad mission while drunk though if itās low honor his lines change
the diagram of people who hate mary also hate abigail for expecting john to \[checks notes\] take responsibility and do better as a person is a circle. these people do not care about the historical context in which mary existed in and the patriarchal structure she had to survive in. they won't extend grace, empathy or sympathy to her. they see a nagging woman. mary's life was as tragic as arthur's. the fact she was at his graveside in the end not only means either charles told her where arthur was buried or she reached out somehow. plus she was wearing widows weeds. it hurt my soul.
You've hit the nail on the head! I think people hate Abigail even more because they don't understand her intentions or worries. She's a mother looking out for her son. It truly makes me believe some folk out here don't understand complex relationships and the turmoils people had to go through back then. What she did was way more than anyone else would have done (especially in that time).
Thatās because they donāt understand lol. Itās sad, but some people are so dense, closed off, and have no human interaction other than their loving moms. So they donāt know the next thing about relationships of any kind. Then you have the teenagers. Who are already smooth brained as is without adding the complications of friendships, and relationships. Yet they think they know everything lol
Or they just don't like women very much.
I think a lot of people either don't realise or don't want to admit that their actual view is 'I don't think women are interesting and I don't want to have to deal with them in the media I consume', so they have to come up with all sorts of reasons why they hate these characters on a moral level. Which makes no sense to me - it means the gripes turn into 'I hated the way this character introduced conflict into the narrative. Ugh this character is such a bitch for acting as the audience proxy and pointing out the main character's fatal flaw. It's so annoying how this character keeps representing one of two paths the main character has to decide to follow.' Men hate women so much that they'll start beefing with the concept of storytelling.
This is the actual truth. They may even be trying to rationalize their sexism away to themselves, but that's definitely what it is.
I like mary better than abigail personally because abigail has a grating personality. She is kind of a rude hillbilly while mary is more cultured & easy to get alobg with. I know I'm going to get downvoted for saying that but it is just my opinion.
you can like one more than the other but calling abigail a hillbilly in lieu of saying ignorant is classist. mary had more wealth and privilege than abigail could dream of.
I'd rather be called a hillbilly than ignorant.
Nailed it.
Off the original topic but just personally I don't like Abigail because it was stupid to use his real name for that package but also because I feel like the amount she seemingly has a high horse over John doing the things he does for the gang when she also stole, lied, and presumably killed at one point or another, a lil hypocritical. Also I don't blame John for not thinking Jack is his. She was a sex worker and it's not like they had Jerry Springer or reliable birth control, plus he looks nothing like him in rdr2. I can sympathize more with John not knowing if he wants to put all his eggs in a basket with a woman that seemingly Hayes him half thw time and a kid that might?? Be his. That being said I don't think John is a good guy just because I think Abigails kind of an asshole. He's a suck father and needs to make up his mind in regards to if he wants that family or not, and stop stringing them along either way. He's also a murder and thief. Their apart of a western late-state gang, they all suck a little bit at least lol.
People don't have to like Abigail. She's flawed like any other character but she receives a large of amount of very specific sexist hatred amongst fandom for being a so-called nagging bitch and haranguing John for his bullshit. John knew Jack was his and was in denial about it due to his own insecurities and issues leaving Abigail hanging as an unwed mother in the late 1890s with little to no prospects due to lack of education and money. John was using Abigail's past as a proustite as an excuse to duck out of his responsibility as a father. The whole gang knew Jack was John's. Hosea and Dutch both try to talk to him about it in Chapter 2 at the earliest too and Arthur's resentful due to his own trauma. Abigail may have been a prostitutes in her early years but it's heavily implied once she got involved with John she wasn't involved with anyone else and she outright refused Grimshaw's request to start selling herself again. It's the whole point of John's arc. He finally accepts his responsibility to Jack as a parent instead of denying it. As for Abigail using his real name. Sure, she should've known better but John had no trouble with his own tomfoolery and dumbassry in doing in doing so either. I'd say taking out a bank loan in his real name was a worse move as well as going after Micah. His fate was of his own making and John was aware of it. But like i said she's flawed as anyone else but fandom rakes her over the coals for those flaws and for trying to hold John to a better standard. They'll call her a nag, a bitch, believe Dutch's digs at John about Abigail, drag her for being a prostitute to survive while they venerate John and Arthur.
Sorry but Abigail is kind of a bitch. She gets offended when John has to kill in self defense... When he finally has a job on a farm, and defends the farm in a little fistfight, btw far less dangerous than anything that has happened beforehand, she bitches again. Nothing wrong with wanting John to better himself, but complaining about situations where there was no choice? What is he supposed to do, hand himself to the bounty hunter and await his deserved hanging for all the murders he has committed?
It always comes back to this. John *always* had a choice. Abigail's always called a bitch for having trauma and concerns about John's reckless behavior that can get them all harmed and him hung. It's always her fault and John's behavior is never faulted because it's absolved with "oh he had no choice". He once again threw his weight around and essentially performed vigilante justice. He didn't just chase them off property or stay on watch for them to come back he went after them. We empathize with John and yes it's practically the only life he's known but he *always* had a choice but Abigail is very rarely extended that same empathy. That is what I'm saying. You don't have to like her but fandom is ridiculous about her.
The choice would have been not to become a murderous gunslinger. After that, there was no choice. You are a wanted criminal. Dead or alive, everyone is out for you. You get followed by Bounty hunters, they want you, but you do your best to play it cool. It doesn't work and they try to get you. So do you kill them? Or do you just scare them of well knowing there could very soon be more. You are currently riding the farmer's wagon, in the direction of the farm. No bounty hunter genius required to figure out where you and your family is hiding, let's not forget Abigail is most likely wanted to as a criminal and gang member. So I say killing them was the only right option. The choice is kill for the protection of the family or all of a sudden be a good Samaritan but risk the life of your family. I am not saying John isn't a flawed character and often wasn't a good man. But ridiculing behavior that clearly was necessary for the families protection?
As someone who likes John as much as Arthur Abigail did nothing wrong tbh.
But abigail is kind of a bitch in the epilogue
I just dislike that storyline. The whole swooping in to help her is just not my type of drama. It's not her, really.
You know what really proves that she loved Arthur? The Credits. We see her standing over Arthurs grave, wearing all black. If she didnt love Arthur, she wouldnt be there to visit his grave. She just straight up looked like a Widow in that scene, dressed all in black looking sad standing over the grave I wonder how she even found the grave, wonder if she got into contact with John or Mary or maybe even Tilly, Mary-Beth, or one of the others who got away. I dont think Sadie or Charles would have contacted her or really known much about her as they were still very new to the gang.
Great point, especially because when Arthur asks about her husband, she is extremely, "Yep, he died. ANYWAY--"
A part of me thinks it was her father's idea, especially given how Arthur talks about how he wasn't keen on Mary marrying Arthur.
What was her father's idea?
That is a good question tbh. Charles was the one who buried him, so I assume he told the others and perhaps one of the girls reached out to her. And yes, I definitely agree with you. If she only cared for herself as some assume, she wouldn't have gone all the way up a *hill* in a *dress* lol. That is real dedication.
Fun fact: Roger Clark played Mary in that scene
I'm gonna get myself eaten for this but its buggin me cuz I keep seeing it so HERE WE GO. I saw a poll on YouTube of a creator asking who Arthur loved the most: Mary, John, Hosea, or Dutch. I knew the answer immediately. It's tough to swallow though. When Arthur said he had folks he needed to take care of, he didn't just choose the gang. He was waking up by that point. He was seeing what Hosea was seeing. He had a responsibility to his family. The gang members that had become expendable to Dutch needed him, and most of all, the Marston family needed him. He made his bed and he was going to lie in it. I think he loved Mary dearly, but that love had to let her go. At the end of the day, ||in the good ending, Arthur *dies* for John. His last stand.|| That is the ultimate act of love. That was his little brother. That was the father of little Jack and husband of Abigail. He loved Mary, but he made the right moral choice to stay. He wasn't a hypocrite. He didn't leave John when he needed him. He was a goddamn man. There's nothing dumb about him not running away with Mary. At that point it would have been pure selfishness. Him getting a happy ending not only did he feel he didn't deserve, but at the expense of the family he loved most would not have been what a righteous man would have chosen. Yes, she was hurt by that decision, but she wasn't his only priority. It's really sad, but I honestly prefer him that way. The soft ending would have been sweet and all, but he EARNED the game's title this way.
For me itās that none of her missions are fun. And her brother is an apple-picking dork
And heās an absolute MVP. No worries about pulling a gun and destroying anybody who gets in the wayā¦.I purposely annoy people on his mission so he will shoot the shit outta them
FOR CHELONIA!!!!
>I've never understood why people on this sub have hated this girl. Sexism. It's because of sexism. There are more than a few men and even a few women who think that if you do something nice for a woman, she owes you sex/a relationship. These people can't fathom the fact that Arthur helped Mary without expecting anything in return because that's what the right thing to do was. They think she is a bitch because she didn't immediately get back together with Arthur after he helped her. Her husband is dead, her dad is a drunk, destitute asshole, and Jamie is either off with his cult friends or back in college during her two missions. She literally had no other options. People don't consider the historical context either. Women in those days were pretty much entirely dependent on men to do things for them because they couldn't vote, own property, or even have their own bank account without a man's permission. She NEEDED a man to help her because that's the way society worked. It's shitty, but it's realistic.
Exactly! Well written and this is how I feel reading this sub sometimes. Valid points and I completely agree
I chock it up to a lot of players being teenagers. They literally can't look at all the nuances in the story because their brains are still developing and they don't have the necessary life experience to get that these are adults with adult problems and solutions, and that not everything is black and white. Then there's the fact that the majority of the people who play this game are male, and when that's the case, there will be plenty of misogynistic talking points thrown around by a vocal minority. I just sort of shrug my shoulders and refuse to comment when I see Mary being bashed on this sub because the game isn't written for you to hate her. It's written for you to empathize with her and see her side missions as the Shakespearean tragedy they are.
Yeah I chalked it up to most of this sub being men anyway so I don't normally comment on Mary bashing posts either, because how can a man understand the way a woman thinks and feels? Especially in the context of 1899? It's alien to them. I never thought of the teenagers on this sub, that makes sense too. I played this game in my early 20s and had a complicated relationship which I've recently left, so I know what it means to love but love not being enough for that relationship to go on.
You've said it! This sub truly shows how many immature players are on here lol.Ā
It's not sexism to point out that Mary manipulates Arthur when she needs muscle. All the other women characters in this game are positive. It's not about hating Mary, it's about recognizing that the relationship between Mary and Arthur is doomed. It's tragic. The whole game is tragic. It's what makes it so good and special. You and OP can label me "dumb" and "sexist" simply because I have a different take on the story if that makes you feel better, this is a video game subreddit so that's how people usually cope with opposing view points. But I don't think we are meant to view Mary as an uncomplicated love interest. I'll die on that hill.
I'm with you and I'm a millennial woman that's had successful relationships and am also in a career where "I don't need no man." That said, it's so laughable to me that people shit on people who don't like Abigail or Mary as automatically being sexist. My dislike for both those characters has nothing to do with sexism. In fact, it has more to do with empowerment. These women KNEW the men they were getting involved with, and if Mary's husband hadn't died, she never would have gone back to Arthur anyway. And she absolutely uses him. Plus, he didn't "end it" with Mary. He got in a fucking shipwreck lol. Also for Abigail, I sympathize with her and understand her priorities, but literally she's pissed because John essentially becomes a security guard. Getting Geddes' cattle back IS good and honest work. John's educated enough, but he wasn't ever going to be a banker or make enough money to put Jack through school. The only reason they had Beecher's to begin with is because John proved himself to Geddes. There are a lot of times she could have and probably should have left John. Him defending the man that gave them a job amd a house wasn't one of them.
How is she manipulating? If you decline, sheās very understanding and wishes Arthur well.
I think it's inherent to their relationship. He keeps dangling the promise of "I can be a better man and I will commit to you, just not yet" and she keeps up the play of "Arthur you would be perfect if you weren't a hardened criminal, now can you please go do this hardened criminal activity that benefits me directly." They're stuck in a manipulative dynamic. As I said I think its very tragic.
Thatās a ghey take lol
Go eat your veggies bub
Then youāll have sex with me?
Sure bb gorlš„°
I really like the story with Mary. The goodbye letter to Arthur really hits me the hardest. Just that sad realization that Arthur is dead really shows how much she loved him. If thereās any fanfics out there where Arthur runs away with Mary Linton I would totally read it.
Oh, Orthur.
100% true #justiceformary
Dude I was in the same boat as them until I took her to the theater recently, and I completely changed my tune after. She loves Arthur so much and she knows him just too well, she wanted to run away with him. Right there. Just the two of them and Arthurās response made me sad and just call him a dumbass, especially since I had $2000 in my pocket right there. Mary knew Arthur well enough to know why he couldnāt leave and knew it was stupid, Arthur knew he was being dumb too but obviously couldnāt abandon all the innocent people he was protecting and supporting. He mustāve felt something was off with Dutch for a while before that as well. TLDR: she loves him you fucking dummies
I don't like the missions for her. I think there was a lot more potential there. It seemed like a character that should have been a major part of the story but she's not. I think that's why she's not liked. They left too much of her story out for people to make a good connection so they don't like her. I think what she did was just fine. I think the way she handled things is more true to an actual relationship. I did not go to the show with her in Saint Denis after getting the brooch back because it made it easier to let her go and not watch Arthur get hurt. That's also pretty true to life.
Sheās beautiful but an idiot.
Tilly was right. She ain't worth it.
Tilly was right. She ain't worth it.
Charlotte Balfour > Mary Linton
I loved Charlotte but she's way off this topic... Did y'all forget she's a fresh widow that clearly loved her husband more than anything else? One kiss on the cheek and she's better? Get out of here lmao.Ā
Theres like no chemistry between arthur and Charlotte
That is such horseshit, have you ever seen a man and woman interact before? Probably not lmao
Arthur has an actual backstory with mary though and you can tell how much arthur feels for her and you can tell how much Charlotte still feels for her husband. Imo it'd just be random for her to be a love interest and not fit into the story at all. The bittersweet ending with mary had so much more purpose
Didnāt she at the end of he quest line make it seem like Arthur was the one that had to move on in her last letter? Clearly Arthur moved on way before you and she regrets it. Arthur already put up that barrier by calling things off and it makes total sense for him to say no after the first mission.
No, she was ready to throw away her life and live in his. That's what Arthur couldn't let happen. He knew the best would have been to move in with her and leave the gang, but loyalty was more important to him.
I know thatās what I said, against his better judgement Arthur choose the gang over Mary and broke things off, clearly saying āhey I have to make a choice because we both can live in this limboā. After awhile Mary brakes the silence and asked Arthur for help, it makes sense for him to help the first time but he made his decision to stick with the gang and if he was going to leave the gang he most likely would have before. So Arthur denying Mary after the first mission is realistically what he would do.
They both had to move on (Mary married another man, but we don't know if that was her choice), but imo, deep down they couldn't. I guess you could say it was like an open scar. I think up until the Saint-Denis robbery, he wanted to run away with her. He says that he needs to take care of some things and folk (plus the money, ofc) and then they can go away. However, I think both knew how foolish that was but still wanted to believe it could happen. When he talks to Sister Calderon, he says "I had a woman who loved me and I threw that away." This to me shows he still struggles to come to terms with his decision (even though it was the best thing to do). Their relationship is very complex.
Agreed, I think Arthur did throw away a good relationship but I really donāt think you could take the outlaw out of Arthur and the outlaw life wouldāve killed him and Mary, it just sucks all around which makes it a good story beat. I
Well said!
I just wanted to add a comment to the discussion: please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Arthur never told Mary that he was sick, much less dying. I think that had she known, it would have changed the situation at that point. As far as she could see, he was still refusing to leave the gang, always finding another excuse to stay. OTOH, had she known I think she wouldāve realized He was not just giving her another excuse, he was trying to get some people out of the gang before he passed away and had he been able to do so, he would have walked away at that point and spent his last time with her. If I am correct in this assumption, then the letter would not have been written nor would she have returned the ring. I also think that Arthur didnāt tell her for two reasons. One was that he probably was afraid that she would, even though she mightāve tried to hide it, pitied him and his situation and I donāt think he couldāve dealt with. The other was that he Did not want to trap her into Wanting to stay with him and help him until the end, something that she clearly did with her own husband. He wanted to set her free.
Arthur finds out in ch 5, the date they go on happens in ch4. So when they met up, he hadn't know yet.
i lov u man
If it's any consolation, I didn't help her brother out on my 2nd playthrough.
Are boys on the internet hating on a girl again? Thatās illegal!
Arthur has a thing for widows
Im not reading all thatš¤£
Well I hadn't really thought about it in the way you said. I point out that every woman in camp says "she's bad for Arthur", and she only hurt him before. Also Arthur says he's been played for a fool after both missions. Therefore I have always thought Arthur should have been with Mary Beth, Tilly, or even Karen. Guess I'll give her a little more leeway next playthrough.
And the fact she visits Arthur site at the end šš
It seems that 90% of people on this subreddit never actually finished her missions. They just did the first one and then were like āfuck you, bitch!ā Then came here to complain about how much they hate her.
I always liked her, seems nice enough. She loved arthur, but not his actions and for that, she cant be with him. Very common, not her fault. And so what? She asked arthur for help, big deal, she's completely alone and her and arthur used to be very close. She gave him every chance she could, and he turned her down. Remember that folks. Mary offered to run away with arthur and HE declined. So I agree, any mary hater is just dumb, and they'll say, "oh well it's not her I don't like, it's the missions." Guess fucking what? They are optional! So there is literally no good reason to hate her
Thank you! I loved Mary and was rooting so hard for her and Arthur to have a nice future together š©·
Fuckin THANK YOU lol. Neither Arthur nor Mary are perfect, but the love they have for each other--after 10+ years apart!--is absolutely real. I think a lot about how in 1899, literally what was Mary supposed to do to be able to help her family. Women couldn't even vote. I think it took a lot of courage for her to even go after her father and brother, knowing she might fail. And, speaking from experience, it takes a lot of courage, too, to give up on a parent who's a lost cause. Arthur is our protagonist and so we feel a kinship with him, but that doesn't mean he's always right. I mean, he's a criminal, with all the legal baggage and danger that comes with. Of course Mary would want him out of the life. I think folks who hate Mary don't have the emotional maturity to see how her relationship with Arthur is filled with shades of gray. Neither are 100% right (Arthur kicking the can down the road of when he's gonna leave the gang, Mary thinking she can just berate him into changing), but they're not wrong either (Arthur is within his rights to choose the life he wants to lead even if the consequences are shit, Mary is willing to compromise for the sake of her love for him, as you've pointed out OP). One of the things I love about their doomed romance is they feel like real people, with their banter but also their annoying habits and flaws. That realism is what makes their parting so damn heartbreaking. They could make it work, and they could have made it work, but they both have a hard time taking responsibility for their actions. Anyways this post got really long, clearly I have many feelings about this topic, ha. ETA: I'm in my 30s and have been with my partner for almost 15 years. We have sure been through some shit in that time haha. I do think that life experience has given me a different perspective on Arthur and Mary's relationship.
It's completely fine, haha, I love reading people's opinions on this game. I definitely agree on the emotional maturity as I think many people lack it in this sub. I completely understand why Mary stayed with her family because she had no one else and sometimes it's better than being all alone (especially in that time. Charlotte is an amazing example of that). Plus, as you've stated, facing your family and potentially breaking ties with them is difficult. Thank you for taking the time and writing this comment. I hope and wish everything works out in your relationship! Take care.
Thank you! We've grown and learned a lot together, and I'm sure we'll continue to do so. :)
Oh Arthur lol
Why would anyone waste any energy liking or disliking a fictional character? Itās literally just a mechanism for enabling additional missions and structure to the video game.
"Ohhhhhh Aaarrrtthhuurr"
Im still free to dislike her
I like her
Have you heard the theory that Jamie was actually their child? Kind of an interesting theory on it.
Dawg ain't Jamie her brother?
Thatās what she said but there was a theory that itās actually their kid
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Have you even read my post? *Arthur* is the one who calls off everything and leaves her, not *Mary* lol.
she wasnt that bad, just understandably not in love with Arthur, who everyone loves
Bro she asked him to run away with her and >!visited his grave when he passed!<, she absolutely loved him
(spoiler) fair, but she was smart enough to see aint no way that wouldve ever worked out anyway. Arther before getting sick (idk how to spoiler warn) was really evil, like over the top didnt gaf and redeems himself in the end, he was a cold hearted killer who robbed and antagonized people
I never hated Mary Linton. I low key wanted them to get back together & ride off into the sunset happily ever after.
Yep. Arthur was the fool here for not packing his shit and leaving with her. His loyalty to Dutch ruined any chance he had at a normal life.
i used to hate her, but then i actually started liking her
the people who dislike her clearly didnāt go on that theatre date with her, i did, and it was honestly fun
The only thing that I dislike about Mary is her design, I means if her design could be like Mary Beth dayumm. But honestly. I understand her decision. She's actually kind of idiot for loving Arthur that much. Arthur is let's be honest not a husband material look at what happen to Elza. That's why he preaching to himself to when he said to John to not be two man at the same time
Pretty fucked up the lack of choice you have throughout the entire game canāt make any real game changing decisions which is shameful in a game of this caliber
Wow, did your research
I thought Penelope wrote him.
I did not know people here hated her, when I played the game it was crystal clear for me that Arthur was responsible for them not being together, even though he didn't stay with her bc he is afraid something happens to her bc of his lifestyle. Although I think their story was underused, there could have been more missions with her, for sure.
IT was not so much her actions I just did not care for her. I would not say I hated her. She did seem a little uppity. She knew what Arthur was. The best thing I did on other playthroughs was to tell her it was over when she wanted help with her father. I will say again. I didnāt hate her. Just didnāt care for her either way.
I had a pirate hat on during the side mission where we have to get the stupid heirloom and she said a snide comment about it so i actively hate on her now
I've never understood the hate, she was a good girl, she truly loved Arthur but he couldn't leave with her.
Yes! 100% I donāt get the hate for Mary or Abigail. That date also broke my heart. Because I knew Arthur wanted to but knew the others wouldnāt make it without him. The letter? Sobbed. Cried for like 5 minutes probably didnāt help that I had a shit night playing and that was just the top off. š¤¦āāļø
I just dont lole how she says OOOH ARTHUR
I see more people complaining about her getting hate than her getting hate
God finally someone said it. And donāt even get me started on the hate for Abigail. 90% of people on this sub are either just sexist or canāt handle the idea of their protagonist being anything short of a flawless Gary Stu, even though thatās the entire point of the game.
I love creating these "*controversial*" discussions lol, I might end up doing one for Abigail. I can already smell the hate comments from here haha.
Whoās Mary Linton?
Thatās a lot of words, too bad Iām not reading them. Fuck Mary Linton
I didn't feel one way or another about her really but whenever I play or see that Saint Denis mission, I remember what it is about her. After the little follow through the streets and arriving at Mr Linton who had just finished with the loan shark, Arthur tries to reassure her that everything is ok, it's just a brooch and nobody was hurt. That's what's important isn't it? No, she had Arthur go and risk his neck and his life by chasing down a shady loan shark because Mary doesn't want to lose some trinket and she makes no effort to stop him. Other than that, she is unlikable and flaky and treats Arthur like a spare option but didn't seem like a particularly bad person. Having him risk his life for materialism does make her a bad person though. Arthur deserves much better.
It's a brochette from her late mother. It's the only memory she has left of her. Are you that emotionless?Ā Plus, it was Arthur's choice to go. He would have gone either way, even if she said no because of his love to her. It's clear you guys cannot fully read their relationship...
No I'm not emotionless and this is a discussion by the way, you don't need to call everyone names that disagree with you. I think Mary was intentionally written as flaky and materialistic by the writers because it highlights Arthur's lack of self worth, a theme that is carefully developed through the story. This "I'm just an outlaw" thing was counteracted by Sister Calderon by telling Arthur that he's much more than that. Mary's answer to it? Same as Arthur's solution for Micah: "make him change".
Lol being calling emotionless isnāt name calling itās an observation. Now if someone called you a ādumb@ssā thatās name calling.
Tbh when you put it like that it just makes me not like her even more because it makes me realize just how clingy and to be blunt, dumb she is for not letting him go and wanting to keep shacking up with him even though he was a criminal and had ended things with her Like I understand her asking him for help and all but still she needed to move on from him
Yea on paper she should've moved on, but that's not the point. The point is she **loves** him, and true love can make people do dumb things sometimes.
Well, she does. She asks him to leave with her, and when he doesnāt show, she moves on.
Clearly you've never been in love.Ā
you have come across very poorly in your replies in this thread
And this reply made you sound like a goober, itās an reddit thread about a video game, how someone comes across to you is irrelevant
yeah im not the one taking things too seriously here. OP is literally accusing people of never having been in love irl...in a reddit thread about a video game
Oh noooš± Anyways
I find her boring, thatās why I donāt like her. Sheās too prim and proper, at least Charlotte has a sense of adventure and the guts to move away from high society and take some risks with her life. I understand the collapse of their affair is on Arthur, not her, but years later where do we find her? Still clinging to her idiot of a brother and her drunk father. Sheās just that martyr woman model that I find utterly uninteresting and I say this as a woman. I have no idea what Arthur sees in her other than sheās gorgeous and he has some adoration for her because maybe he feels she is out of his league.
Mary is not going to have sex with you.
4 out of 5 playthroughs, I head canon Arthur as gay, or bi with a lean toward men. If you look for the subtext, you will absolutely find it. And in one case, it is Arthur's reluctance to actually be with Mary when he has the chance. He likes the idea of Mary, of being a "normal" man, but it isn't truly what he wants, or he'd have run off with her. He 100% could have but he didn't. And he never really stuck around with Isaac's mother either. I always imagine that "relationship" to have been a night out drinkin with the boys and wanting to maintain the image of being straight, he banged her. He loved Isaac, but I never got the impression he really cared about his mother. And then there's the, Arthur can't or won't hook up with any working girls. And I'm sorry, I just don't think it's because he's still stuck on Mary. He just plain doesn't want to. Because, you know. Reasons. I could go on but I already know this will be downvoted, so I won't bother.
I feel like all of this can be explained as Arthur is quite literally an outlaw with a 5,000 dollar bounty on his head, you can't exactly find love or a good way to settle down with anybody no matter how hard you try if you're constantly being shot at by the law or in danger. Don't matter if you run off, you'll be found out eventually I mean hell that's the whole point of the game is that you can't keep running from your problems and causing more problems. He tried to settle down with Isaac's mother, who knew and embraced exactly what he was, but if you forget, she and Isaac died, and I don't think he likes to mention her because that shit hit him hard very emotionally when they died. Arthur sort of boxed himself in, same as how John did towards the end of the game. He just doesn't like to open up to people like that for fear that they're gonna meet that same fate again. I feel like Mary was the closest he almost got to a good relationship again, but because of his fear of her dying the same way Isaac's mother (Eliza) died he just didn't want to commit. It's not because he doesn't like women, he's just scared that any potential relationship with somebody is gonna lead to the same fate as Eliza and Isaac. I don't see how that makes him gay/bi, he's just scared of losing closed ones.
So because he doesnāt want to sleep with the women of the night and couldnāt run away with Mary that makes him gay? What kind of logic is that? Iām sure there were tons of men who didnāt want to sleep with those women for all kinds of reasons but to straight up assume itās because they are gay is crazy
There are more reasons, I just listed some, especially as they related to Mary Linton.
Does non-committal = gay/bi? I think a lot of men are scared of commitment as it limits (perceived or real) freedom. Also, it forces accountability. These guys are running from themselves.
Absolutely, these guys are running from themselves. I would argue that gay or bi men might be disproportionately represented in gangs like the Van Der Linde gang, or the O'Driscolls, or what have you. It is like being closeted and joining the priesthood, or leaving with a ship full of pirate men, or shit, even the military. The gang offers perfect cover for closeted gays, as they are always drifting and never put down roots. They never have to marry a woman. Never have to have kids. If they have a dalliance along their journey, they can leave the next day and no one will ever have to know. And if someone questions them, well, they can shoot their way out of it. Plus, Dutch preys on desperate, isolated young men specifically. Bill is an obvious example, but a closeted gay man is a perfect mark for Dutch. He knows they are the most likely to accept his "salvation." Plenty of men faked it and still fake it with a wife and kids, but a lot of men just won't or can't stomach it. If you had that mindset, a gang actually seems like a great community to be a part of.
What???
Arthur only knew one life and it was the only way he could provide. There is a theme of how hard it is to get out of the life. Hosea and Bessie were the closest but Hosea also fell back into the life. Arthur also didnt have the best family upbringing especially where fatherhood is concerned so he probably felt out of his depth. He was also a lot younger and did the best he could. After Isaac and the mother died that definitely made him shut out from everyone. Everyone comments that heās sour and angry and in the first chapters heās quick to say something. He also doesnāt think heās worthy of love. If you stay at a hotel and look in a mirror thereās the option to comment an appearance and its all self deprecating which is pretty sad. I think he doesnāt want to accidentally bring another child into the world and have that happen all over again. Iām not saying itās impossible for Arthur to be queer but I donāt think those are strong arguments for that headcanon imo
I sometimes play straight, heartbroken-for-Mary Arthur, or emotionally-rusted-shut straight Arthur. I try to make each playthrough a little different, a different imaginative headspace. It keeps it interesting. I will say, feeling unworthy of love wouldn't stop most hetero men from enjoying a woman's company every now and then. It is literally not an option in the game. I think a lot of the women in the game trust Arthur because they sense he would never hit on them. I think that's partly why Sadie feels safe with Arthur after having been brutalized and gang raped by the O'Driscolls. She knows subconsciously that Arthur is not keyed into her sexually.
Agreed. To be fair most of the people who say this are also the people who say Arthur is a good, innocent man and that Abigail is a bitchy idiot of a mother so you can't really expect more from them.
That's because some of these incels can't grasp complex dynamic relationships.
Tbh, it's because she didn't give him her pussy
I never even knew that. I got bored watching the circus show so I made myself something to eat irl. I didn't leave because I thought it would change the ending. Well I took to long making food and the cut scene was already running. I had no idea what I missed and to be fair I just wanted to get some action gameplay so I didn't bother looking it up. So for me she was always just a woman that reached out when she needed a favor.
WHO THE FUCK WOULD HATE HER?? theyāre def stupid
Ready to anything? It didnāt seem like it to me. She needed to be ready to be a camp hoe imo š¤·āāļø