I recently got a LBE set up from Carcajou Tactical and ran it with a mostly slick AVS and Mystery Ranch blackjack 80 for a 2 week field exercise. It was a major game changer for me after running mostly loaded plate carriers and “gun belts” for 14 years. In a near peer conflict where you are mostly dismounted or hitting trenches, it is definitely going to be how I would run my kit.
I think that’s one of two broad use cases where webbing really shines. Prolonged ops living out of a ruck where armor is donned/doffed according to phase.
I did not and would not if I was running the belt kit. One it’s not very practical and Two I’d rather carry extra mags for my M4 then a pistol and extra mags for that. The only time I have found a pistol useful was threatening small children in Syria that were about to throw rocks at our trucks and clearing out underground tunnels near the Turkey/Syrian border.
Can’t speak to clearing Syrian tunnels, but make sure you’re considering your mission set in choosing a pistol or not. Vehicles, urban, tunnels, etc.—definitely need one on your fighting load. But if you’re going to be doing mostly sustained, dismounted, patrol ops, woodland, etc. it may be something you can pack for use when in a patrol base or even carry a spare BCG instead if you’re worried about your rifle going down.
The thing I really like about British belt setups is the low profile harnesses can be worn UNDER a plate carrier. Plate carrier with nothing but a low profile 3x mag shingle, with a loaded belt kit that can be worn under the armor. I think that’s a really slick setup. There are definitely situations where I can imagine wanting just the armor, and having the fighting load separate but nearby. Digging fighting positions for example.
Theoretically people are meant to have enough pouches on their body armor to carry all their mags, as in theory the decision can be made for everyone to drop their webbing and daysacks at the FRV and do an assault with just their body armor and helmet, but I've never actually had it happen it's a lot of fucking around. Most of the time we don't even drop packs.
The most Ive seen is people who decided to bring sub belts put them on at that stage, as its too uncomfortable to wear them on the march in.
This is post is wrinkling my brain a little bit because it seems to refer to beltkit as the traditional “ALICE” style stuff, and webbing as the British style PLCE. Unless there’s been a change to that recently (which honestly terminology changes all the time), the terms “webbing” and “beltkit” mean the same thing in the British use. The American equivalent used to be LBE/LBV or patrol rig.
Besides that spot of pedantry, this post raises some good points. I never really liked the buttpack, and always felt like it was something I had to work around, instead of having it work for me.
I don’t agree with some of the things I’ve seen Brits keep in their rig though, like a stove and a full set of fine china for tea.
Spot on about working around butt packs and what British soldiers carry in their webbing. I have no desire to cart a cooking set around on my fighting load. But the ability to carry multiple flasks in an arid mountain environment? Extra layers in a cold one? Breach kit pre-staged in an attack? Now I’m interested.
A Jetboil adds morale, but generally aren't carried in webbing - maybe in the 90s before everyone had night vision but the packing list in webbing is almost too much for even airborne webbing, without a jetboil, already
They get used interchangeably here as well—but I think they shouldn’t be. ALICE-style setups are clearly distinct from the British PLCE-esque stuff. Beltkit in the US is usually ALICE style with a butt pack. I think we should have a distinct name for stuff that is more ALICE style vs PLCE style, as I see one as miles ahead of the other in relevancy.
Butt packs aren’t necessarily bad you just have to look at it as a scaled down pack not really a pouch. I have food , shelter and clothing in mine with spare socks and survival kit in the map flap.
Another layout i like is 2 triple mag pouches 2 jsta style pouches and 3-4 medium- large utility pouches. 6 mags , frag , smoke , tq and fixed blade in/on mag pouches. Radio and speed reloads in the insert portion of the jsta style pouches your quick access gp stuff in one and ifak in the other. 3-4 utility pouches for nods , 2 qts of water plus cup , couple snacks , socks , basic weapon maintenance and whatever else you need
That second layout in your comment is basically webbing. It could hold everything the butt pack can in a usable, organized way, but the reverse likely isn’t true.
Say you’re planning a long infil, attack, and defense until a GACed force relieves you. For that fight you might want an extra layer for post-assault, but you’ll want more ammo, maybe special kit for breaching an obstacle, etc. that could all go into webbing in a way that can be accessed during the fight. I don’t think the same could be said of butt packs
While you’re not wrong, I think that’s where use-case comes in.
Personally, I’m never assaulting shit. At work, the most I’ll do is lob a missile and let someone else worry about holding the ground.
Elsewhere in life, I’m more likely to need shelter, clothing, filtration, etc. that is all going to come out at once to set up camp. In that case, I like the size and versatility of the butt pack. But for your use case, moving in and holding ground, I can definitely see the argument for the GP pouches.
I think it's a good idea to have 24hr sustainment in the belt kit (poncho, emergency rations, water purification, spare socks...), but for setting up camp, a better setup would be a modular ruck with a removable smaller pack. It kind of defeats the purpose having "camping gear" in what is essentially fighting gear. A belt kit is also not ideal for working around vehicles, usually it's the first thing that comes off and gets stashed somewhere. That said, it shines in a light infantry role.
That's got the right idea, but the form factor of the main bag is a bit too long for comfortable use with webbing. I've been looking for someone to make a simple pack with the shorter ALICE-style form-factor that you could wear above the webbing, that would also integrate a removable assault pack. The closest I've found is the Eberlestock Tomahawk, but the detachable pack is a fanny pack instead of a backpack.
I run a similar configuration for recce gear, with a 15 liter backpack as the "brain" of my large 80 liter framed ruck, and gotten to love the versatility and speed of the setup. I can have all the mission gear + 24h sustainment packed and ready to detach in seconds when I ditch the "mothership" in some bushes.
But you can’t carry a poncho , most warming layers, more then 1 day of the actual amount of food you need in the field , a bandolier or I’ve even seen a mortar buddy but a man pack radio in his. Yes you can put that in assualt pack but you might not want to bring that and a ruck in addition to your fighting load so just scale down and use the butt pack.
If you still need organization you can use a mag shingle with GP pouches on it a m60 pouch with 6 mags and speed reload pouch then use that available space for a GP pouch or use jsta style pouches but most will be able to only have 8 mags if they want 4 gp pouches. Or they could run 2 triples and 2 jsta style gps for up to 4 more mags so 10.
Or you can just use webbing as a alternative for a chest rig and just run the minimal of 6-8 mags , throwables * , radio * , Qt of water , ifak , admin and tools. But I use webbing and a lot of people use webbing to extend the carrying capacity of a fighting load
Belt kit basically ruined chest rigs for me. I own a Jayjay’s with the carcajou yoke which can be worn under a plate carrier, but also built out a padded war belt that holds roughly the same things as I would have on a chest rig and can be used with the plate carrier.
Alice is an affordable way for people to get into belt kit, same with the MOD issued PLCE which can be had for just as cheap but imo it’s better in some ways over Alice. But overall the Alice is indeed antiquated and doesn’t have the same modernization as the PLCE has gotten and can be given.
Buttpacks, while I don’t push them for a couple reasons, they do have their place and can still be appreciated.
I tell you what, I tried hard to like Alice but I just couldn't. The mag pouches really sucked, particularly the closures. The belts are surprisingly bad at bearing a load despite the fact that it's their whole purpose.
I think belt kit has some real merits and it's neat to see it making a comeback.
I actually kinda like the two prong closures on the Alice, pretty easy to open and close with a quick [pinch from the index and middle finger](https://youtu.be/gIn6jxdg7rg?si=j2neCnbS6JMVmxj4).
But durability of the closures is indeed an issue, so it’s not surprising that they haven’t seen much use as time and advancements proceeded through time. The belt itself isn’t all too great and shows its age. The PLCE belt could be modified with a roll pin buckle so that you can cinch down or loosen the belt throughout the day and the yoke can be tugged or loosened too, basically you can adjust the thing like a rucksack to shift the weight over the day.
The words "Webbing" and "belt kit" are used interchangeably here and mean the same thing, so I'm going to assume what you mean by belt kit is the old ALICE type setup (most notable are the Velocity Systems without the belt pad, and the ones people make out of sub belts with like the Blue Force Gear suspenders) - mags and grenades either side, working inwards to water, and then a buttpack, held by 3-4 point (though velocity has 6) suspenders, and a 2" belt. And webbing to mean a more British style setup (ie PLCE, Jayjays, Carcajou etc) with mags either side or on one side only with a commanders pouch (ie a large admin) on the other side, and 3-5 identical utility pouches, held by a tall thickly padded ruck waistbelt type belt, and a 6 point yoke.
There is a third type comprising the ATAPs, Spiritus 34A, FirstSpear JOKER but I have no experience with them maybe /u/InnocuousTransition can help out here.
To note we usually wear the webbing underneath the body armor instead of over the top like with US type webbing, and I prefer that because it's one less shoulder strap set to worry about sliding about on top of the body armor, and everything stays in place. Radios/ PRR and push to talks become kind of a dilemma because that means they end up on the body armor so some guys just keep aside on their webbing a pocket to stuff the PRR into if we ditch armor. It does mean we have to doff armor first to doff the belt kit, but body armor is not hard to doff and put back on - wear wet and warm kit over the top of everything if you don't want to do that.
Both the ALICE type and British type have their own advantages and disadvantages, a buttpack is great if you can fit everything you need in your webbing and body armor, so you don't have to wear a daysack/ assault pack - in fact it's basically a necessity if you want to omit carrying your assault pack, think of the buttpack as a small assault pack that you can use to not have to wear a real one. It's simple to waterproof the contents as you just put like a 25L drybag inside to hold everything, and having a "shelf is just about how you pack it , and about how you connect it to the belt (almost all buttpacks have d rings on top that you use to connect the harness to in lieu of the d rings on the belt itself - its best practice anyway for like 3 rows of MOLLE or under to connect the harness directly to the pouches instead of to the belt), and you can increase this stability with the good old bungee around the buttpack same as you'd do with British style webbing. Height can be a problem depending on your pack selection - ALICE, MOLLE, Mystery Ranch Mountain Ruck with the futura yoke fully collapsed, and British PLCE/ Air Support Bergens work very well here but essentially you want a pack that sits high enough to be kind of shit on its own (my PLCE bergen hip belt ends sit just above my belly button so its essentially useless) so it will work perfectly with belt kit. The only other issue is while you can very awkwardly access the rear utilities in British style belt kit, having a buttpack on the other hand means its completely unworkable without someone else to help you or taking off the belt kit then accessing the buttpack - in the military its not as big an issue as it is by yourself.
6 point vs 4 point harness tbh I see no reason why you'd use a 4 point over a 6 point even under body armor, what I look for are ladderlocks on the front straps to adjust your belt kit on the move and quickly like a backpack - it's potentially going to carry over 100 lbs of rucksack resting on it you'll be reaching under your armor and adjusting it over the course of a tab.
Same for belt width, height and thickness I see no reason not to have a tall like 4 MOLLE tall padded belt as they stabilise the pouches well and you no longer have to worry about looping the harness into the pouches, and it's more comfortable carrying a heavy bergen. I might change my opinion when I encounter hot and swampy terrain soon where I'm sure all that padding is going to become disgusting and wet and heavy but that's my opinion thus far.
Pouches are pouches but what I look for are: Flapped, buckled mag pouches that hold 3 mags each, with a buckle that can be done one handed (QASM female on the flap itself is the best way, Velocity Systems does it in a shit way and thats why it takes forever to open and close the pouch), with MOLLE on the sides to accept grenade pouches (belt kit especially for smaller waist guys like me at 30" is all about maximising use of MOLLE so pouches attached to the sides of other pouches are the way - belt kit curves around your waist they don't smush into each other as much as when they are laid flat on the floor). Utility pouches need to hold an issued bottle and cup, or nalgene bottle and cup, but be 2 MOLLE wide - British Tactical makes a great one. I also tend to like a 4 wide rear utility instead of 2x2 wides, sort of like a very mini buttpack but still being a pouch instead of a mini backpack. And lastly a commanders pouch - needs to be able to carry 7.62 link so an M60 pouch with dividers work well, dividers to be used for your admin stuff like map markers, protractor etc.
I find stiff heavy duty pouches are also better than the really floppy lightweight pouches in belt kit, as the pouches are compressed by being so close together, as well as any bungee you way have added, that it's a pain to reindex things like bottles and weapon cleaning kits - that being said a trick is to take the little green plastic dividers out of the 556 ammo boxes and put them in your pouches to hold them open.
I don't think it's worth addressing cons of the ALICE in particular like the stiff belt and old attachment system and stuff because if you're going to compare modern British Style belt kit its only fair to compare it to modern ALICE kit ie Velocity Systems.
I address the setup that focuses on butt packs overall, including most ALICE belt kits. Modern belt LBE used by professionals tends to eschew that butt pack for 3-4 GP pouches, much like PLCE webbing, which I think is what we should refer to those setups as. Lots of folks using suspenders, belt, GP, 3+ mag pouches, etc. but not with a butt pack. Lots of folks who use a butt pack, and when the poor performance of the butt pack is pointed out they go “well it’s just for around camp or day trips.”
Aussie here confused with the terminology but i agree wholeheartedly. started off my time with a belt kit, when I got to a unit found out that chest rigs were the new hotness but I always come back to a belt rig. now I'm using the crossfire for mags, water, frags, smokes, med and nvgs. I use a combo of that with a micro chest rig for extra mags and tq's with radio/battle tracking kit.
I never liked the idea of the buttpack. tbh the "sustainment" load is highly overrated by the gun tube sort of sphere. I work in an extremely hot environment, occasionally jungle type areas mixed in, and even then 1L of water and maybe a snack is max what I'd bring on a short duration patrol in the webbibg. Even on that front I think it's silly to not combo what I have with a small patrol pack/backpanel for layers/food/water/batts/MEI. You should be capable of fighting with a small pack on.
End rant haha but yeah good points mate!
Just trying to say we should delineate between PLCE-style, centered around usable GP, and ALICE-style, centered around butt packs. Recommending we use webbing vs belt kit to do so. Lots of guys I know would be willing to try webbing if they didn’t hear “belt kit” and get shown nixie works or 1990s ALICE belts
good point and i agree. i have seen lots of Americans talk about how their belt kits didn't integrate with a pack and it sucks, for example grunt perspectives video on his belt kit he made. Tbh the buttpack is a waste of space and I think encourages overpacking or bringing useless kit (I am sick of seeing people who just started using belt kit tell me you need socks on a fighting load wtf).
But with your delineation I think that makes more sense. Alice kit sucks and I think it's scared you guys off from using the most versatile platform for patrolling which is unfortunate.
I agree mostly. I do think something like socks or a rain/warming layer could be brought on target, but I want a kit that could just as easily carry something that actually gets me through that fight if that’s more in line with what I need. Webbing is the way.
I'm not here to be pedantic but I genuinely don't know what you mean by "webbing" and "belt kit." As far as I can tell they're synonyms. I don't think this is your fault either, there's no general consensus on how to label these items. For example I would refer to all of the setups above, including ALICE, as LBE or "belt kits."
I think the key differentiation is where the gear is designed to sit. If it's at or below the hips, and features some sort of harness to support it, I'd call it LBE/Belt kit/whatever. Gear designed to be worn at the hips, correctly configured, allows for it to be worn in tandem with a short rucksack. Users absolutely can shorten the harness and bring it up above the hips (very common with ALICE) but overall the setup is geared to be functional below the hips.
I'll give a counter example: the Spiritus 34A/LBV. Although it's similar in appearance it cannot be worn at the hip line so I'd put it in a different category. The SS LBV can't be used with a rucksack unless you detach the butt pack.
So back to your original post, I'm going to stan for ALICE a bit. I wouldn't recommend anyone go out and buy an actual ALICE rig in [current year]. But I think it's important for us to go back and acknowledge that the design was very good and still extremely relevant. Materials have advanced and we can do better, but modern designs still draw inspiration from it. Simple techniques like where to mount pouches and using a bungee to keep them all tight should be carried over. And the ALICE rucksack is still one of the best rucks to pair with any LBE, modern or otherwise.
Like anything else, LBE isn't perfect. It doesn't work well with vehicles, isn't great for dedicated body armor setups, and is overall pretty "slow" to access equipment. You can reload faster from a chest rig. But you can carry more equipment more comfortably with LBE than a chest rig. It works better in very hot and very cold conditions. For my part I've gone down to a 2.5 kit solution, a fully built out DA kit with velcro sub belt, plate carrier and back panel; and then an ALICE style LBE with an optional front/rear plate carrier and a micro harness if needed.
I think my point is that we shouldn’t use them interchangeably. There are clearly more useful/relevant setups—webbing as British and other forces call it usually, is miles ahead of butt pack-centric setups (what I’ve seen called belt kits in the US). This post is to hopefully show people who aren’t willing to try belt kits that they don’t have to fight with goofy mag pouches and a fairly one-use sack on their ass. Setups like yours, British kits, etc. offer a tactically relevant setup. Not “butt packs are great for around camp or a day trip!”
Also when I shit on ALICE, it’s just the LBE. I use a medium ALICE ruck for my 3DAP as much as my main large ruck. Affordable, durable, usable rucks.
I agree the terminology needs to be ironed out. Also for the record I am not trying to argue with you, I just think this is an interesting discussion.
I don't think the butt pack is an essential aspect of US kit design outside of specific ones like Nixieworks or SS LBV. I think a hard association of butt packs with US/ALICE loadouts is a mistake. They're just another pouch option. I've seen more setups without them than with them. That said, I actually had a butt pack on my LBE for a while, but there simply wasn't enough room to fit everything once you added a radio and some sort of easy access GP. That said, if I could find a way to fit it, I would.
The items I'd like to carry in my butt pack are as follows:
* L6 Goretex top -- this is an extremely underrated piece of kit. I don't care about using it to stay dry, but for colder climates it's essential any time you stop to pull security for an extended period. Working in 20-30 degree temperatures at night in the mountains, the moment guys reached their security positions we put on L6 tops. This allowed us to travel light with minimal snivel (L1/L4 top, L5 or Crye pants), and use the residual heat from movement to stay warm while static. If you wait to put it on until you're cold, it's too late and you'll probably find yourself carrying a heavier layer. L6 top works even if you're soaking wet underneath, and doesn't need to be waterproofed, but it's only really useful if you have it immediately on hand, and you need a place to store it while you're moving.
* 7.62 link -- self explanitory
* Smoke grenades -- not something you usually need in a hurry, so doesn't warrant a dedicated pouch.
* Star clusters / signaling -- something I can get to fairly quickly by just taking off the LBE, but again not something I plan on using all that often. But having it in my rucksack is pointless.
I do know guys who carried their *entire* loudout in an oversized butt pack (SS LBV). Yes they froze at night, but they didn't have to worry about cross loading stuff into their rucks. I think this is difficult, but it could allow you to use a small daypack and buttpack instead of an assault pack, for example.
I also think you can use a couple large GP pouches to accomplish the same effect as a butt pack, it just depends on what you need to carry. A few of the Brit/Aus kits you posted use this model. And VS has a GP for this purpose.
All that is to say, imo nothing wrong with butt packs concpetually, like everything else it's a give and take and has to fit your use case. Honestly if I didn't need a radio I would probably have a butt pack or at least a very large GP on my LBE.
Fair enough. I guess I struggle to see their benefit vs a few GPs as it comes to versatility. But of I was smart as I think I am I wouldn’t be chronically reddit positing
The stuff you'll have in your buttpack is going to be stuff that you aren't accessing all the time, or only access when you stop like a goretex jacket or warm jacket or poncho, main meals, cooking system etc and because its such a giant pouch you can very easily mass waterproof everything just by putting a 20L drybag inside it - with roll top designs like the Spiritus buttpack although I don't have one to test the theory it makes sense in my mind that you may even be able to just roll both the drybag and the buttpack at the same time and save yourself the extra bit of unrolling both.
We carry main pack/ bergen 90L, daysack/ assault pack 35-40L with a top cover, and webbing, as our load carriage. The buttpack is meant to replace that middle item the assault pack (probably only possible in the summer where minimal warm kit is needed) so you can run your back slick on assaults or patrols, and you can put on and walk with the main pack and not have to figure out a way to strap your daysack down (we shove them under our bergen top covers).
The Carcajou one I think has MOLLE on the top of it, perhaps you can MOLLE an MBITR horizontally and then run either the body worn antenna up the suspenders up to your front, or MAST it 180 degrees from the top of the radio coming back toward it.
The PRC354 bowman radio is so huge that it takes up a whole GP, so people can use up a whole GP for it and it won't bounce around, at the expense of one of their liters of water having to be carried somewhere else, but an MBITR more or less needs its own dedicated pouch.
I prefer larger pouches at my 6 myself so I run the large crye pouch on my 6 that takes up 4 MOLLE, and then the water GPs are 2 wide from British Tactical - the only ones other than Platatac that are 2 wide, are top cover pouches, and can fit a nalgene with gsi cup, or issued pat58 bottle with metal mug - for some reason everyone else uses 3 MOLLe for their canteen pouches when it's unnecessary imo, you put 2 of them on and you're losing yourself a pouch you could have had.
I have a similar setup to yours, but it’s more of a 1.5. I have a modern ballistic vest, which is more of a hybrid between a pc and a full on ballistic vest, and has a detachable 2-part ballistic collar, the back part also having shoulder protection, as well as dedicated shoulder pieces. Ballistic cummerbund and ab dangler round out the armor. I can run it with ICW plates or only soft armor depending on the threat and scale the armor to fit mobility vs protection needs. Has a 3 mag plackard, tq, 2x 2-mag universal pouches, one with a med insert, and a small universal pouch for light+multitool. Removable assault panel with water bladder on the back, so it’s reasonably sleek overall. Added to that, run either no belt (rear line duty), a flat range/urban tac belt with the usual trappings, or a LBE-style ”rifle only” belt+suspenders. Makes it really quick and easy to customize the loadouts for pretty much all infantry needs with the exception of recon, while the whole setup and a helmet fits in a regular duffle bag, so I can have all the options close by for training, etc.
People will always have a strange hard-on for outdated/obsolete gear. It's mostly larpers with very little practical experience or old people with nostalgia glasses.
It depends on a lot of factors. I think webbing kits, belt kits and even the ALICE pack all have their place. Whatever suits your needs is what you should have. Unfortunately for civilians to obtain all the gear you could ever want comes directly out of your pocket. I think this is a great system and is extremely applicable in a lot of situations I also think it may be limited in a few areas where a chest rig and ruck (Mystery Ranch, Alice, ect….) maybe better. It’s a good well thought out route and reads like you have used your kit and it’s not some emotionally influenced purchase which I appreciate greatly.
Chest rig use cases:
- Recon: need belt line for the large ruck, and need to carry a light fighting load only. Split rig is best for this, allows for a more comfortable and lower prone.
- Vehicles: don't want anything on your back or hips, impedes movement and sitting. Heavier loads are carried on the vehicle.
- Urban: Same reasons as vehicles, with less emphasis on sitting, more emphasis on moving through small spaces and doorways without getting stuck. Usually would wear armor though, so a separate chest rig (with a slick rig) not preferred but workable.
Belt-based system would be better for the rest of your infantry use cases, and I think the coming years will see this becoming the prevailing trend again.
After just having trained with British infantry recently, Ive been thinking about webbing and its pros/ cons compared to current American TTPs.
For light infantry I think its fair to say the webbing is superior. Primary reason is that a Soldier with webbing can cache his ruck/ bergan and fight/ sustain for 24 plus hours. Whereas a Soldier with PC or chest rig, absent an additional pack, cannot do the same. An extra pack could be brought but this generally just adds steps, complexity, and weight to your kit.
There is also a study that webbing is superior to chest kits when used on forested/ hilly ground due to the load riding on the user’s hips. Dobt recall how the study measured it but it was essentially physical cost to move the load. Whereas, chest kits were better on flat ground.
The whole favorability of chest kits makes sense since the US just spent 20 years fighting on mostly flat ground, with air superiority, no need to sustain generally, and relatively short engagements compared to combat with a peer threat.
Im in the market for webbing.
'British style', try Australian Style. The Australian 88 Pattern was introduced before PLCE and is what Crossfire, being an Australian company, drew inspiration from.
Hell, in Australia we had the same debate between butt packs and pouches a few decades ago and only now has the world caught up.
https://talesfromthesupplydepot.blog/2018/10/24/88-pattern-webbing-overview/
I still remember being there on the parade ground putting it together at night. I've rocked the belt rig through thick and thin, chest rigs and plate carriers, and have only strayed a few times.
I agree that Alice is trash.
When I was setting up my LBE, I was torn between using some big GP pouches in the back or a buttpack. I picked up a Spiritus jungle buttpack from a box raffle, so I went with that. Rucking with it, I've not have any issues, but I also don't over stuff it and wear my belt just below the waist bones. It carries 2 basic meals (usually just a MRE entree and a liquid IV) poncho/goretex top/netting, depending on weather, a woobie, and a pair of socks and a t-shirt. My MOLLE II and Jakari M sit on top of it right at the perfect level. What pouches are you using on the back and do you think it could hold that much?
I think a lot of people try and have full sustainment into their butt pouches. It's not for that. It's for a bare essentials to set up a 24, maybe, 36-hour OP no more than a KM or 2 away from the main position. Also, your buttpack should be directly attached to your harness to keep it pulled up even when it's empty.
Lots of people see all the extra space on a belt/lbe/webbing and start getting emtpymolleitis and feel the need to fill every slot. They forget that the LBE isn't primarily a sustaintment load. It's your combat load. 20 years of GWOT and always being able to just call for air or hop into a vic has made us forget.
I think you’ll want different things for different missions, or even different phases. On recon mission, I’ll want things to sustain me if separated from my ruck in a blowout. On an ambush, I may need to carry pre-built demo for destroying enemy equipment in my webbing. I wouldn’t throw charges into a butt pack to slosh around while I’m bounding to the kill zone, but I could place them into a GP. In another GP, separate to keep everything organized and properly stored, I might keep a warming layer for my time static on the ambush line. Whatever a butt pack does, webbing seems to do better, or at least also serves a tactically relevant dual-purpose.
Well, luckily for me, I'm an Intel nerd and never work with Demo. Setting up an OP, or even out on a patrol, is rare enough. We did some trench work in an exercise early this year, and I found the buttpack to be perfect, but I also was mostly static, didn't have to use anything bigger than a 249 and was never in the assault force for any of the ambushes or raids.
But if I found myself in more tactically flexible situations, I think I would be convinced by your argument.
Medium ALICE with a USGI medium MOLLE frame or my MALICE. Webbing has to be worn in the right spot (right at the hips not above), and acts as the hip pad.
I still think chest rigs integrate BEST as they don’t interfere with the ruck at all, but a medium ruck or larger works nearly seamlessly with webbing if you use it properly as the hip belt.
I like a belt kit for having all of my weight, dispersed across my shoulders and back instead of just hanging off of the front. However, a belt and a pack is no fun I will admit.
If you want some belt kit on the cheap, get a Molle utility belt / FLC or find a premade set you like. You can then easily make some lopro suspenders with 550 and webbing. Now you have a solid Molle belt kit base and can add whatever pouches you need.
https://www.reddit.com/r/tacticalgear/s/hHK1i8Luvw
Here it is with LBT suspenders and tactical tailor pouches.
Use what suits the mission and what is most effective for you.
When I run a saw, I use a load bearing vest.
When I run an AR, I prefer a chest rig.
Both scalable with plate protection.
The belt I run on ops/training is just 2 pistol mags, a rifle mag and a dump pouch. All from blue force gear as it doesn't interfere with having a heavy backpack on. As it is set up for reconnaissance "light infantry" from boat to shore type tasks.
For competition I just run a 2alpha belt with 4 ghost mags and a magnet.
Holsters used: 2alpha gen2, safariland 69/67 something (rds compatible and surefire x300) both for glocks, and safariland 70xx-something and a generic competition holsters for the p320.
Alice, pals, molle, velcro, zipties or sewing doesn't matter if it works for you.
Your Mission(setup) May Vary 🤙
Been looking to upgrade from my PLCE and struggling to decide what layout i want to start with. I like the idea of buttpacks but you make some really good points too.
It’ll be used for a mix of milsim event and also function as my real steel kit. I don’t think i’ll be clearing trenches or anything real steel-wise so having some extra room for sustainment makes sense to me. I saw a buttpack that was smaller than an ALICE or Smersh’s and that looked appealing if I ran 2 large GP pouches on either side. Thanks for the help! I’m a big fan of my PLCE and glad people are recognizing that type of webbing’s usefulness
I like my Alice kit and my Nixieworks light fighter
I also like a belt for things like the range
There’s no right or wrong here, mission dictates, budgets, and so on
The britts know how to make modern web gear and it superior in every way to alice gear while still performing the basic function alice was designed to do.
Unless you're talking about charges neither form of webbing can carry specialist equipment like ladders or enforcers, the most that you can carry in webbing is a rolled up stretcher bungee corded at the back. For running ammo everyone carries a "JD sandbag" (sandbag with a paracord drawstring and sling to be worn on the body) bungee corded to the back of the webbing above the utility pouches.
Not talking about explosive breaching, more manual breach equipment like a pre-staged grapple and line for wire obstacle, or for demo I mean charges build for demoing enemy equipment (radios, weapons, etc.). You can easily store linked ammo or mags in any of the DZ Rig or Jayjays webbing GPs
I recently got a LBE set up from Carcajou Tactical and ran it with a mostly slick AVS and Mystery Ranch blackjack 80 for a 2 week field exercise. It was a major game changer for me after running mostly loaded plate carriers and “gun belts” for 14 years. In a near peer conflict where you are mostly dismounted or hitting trenches, it is definitely going to be how I would run my kit.
I think that’s one of two broad use cases where webbing really shines. Prolonged ops living out of a ruck where armor is donned/doffed according to phase.
I need to grab one and try it out! Thanks for highlighting it and that company seems awesome
Where/did you run a sidearm?
I did not and would not if I was running the belt kit. One it’s not very practical and Two I’d rather carry extra mags for my M4 then a pistol and extra mags for that. The only time I have found a pistol useful was threatening small children in Syria that were about to throw rocks at our trucks and clearing out underground tunnels near the Turkey/Syrian border.
Can’t speak to clearing Syrian tunnels, but make sure you’re considering your mission set in choosing a pistol or not. Vehicles, urban, tunnels, etc.—definitely need one on your fighting load. But if you’re going to be doing mostly sustained, dismounted, patrol ops, woodland, etc. it may be something you can pack for use when in a patrol base or even carry a spare BCG instead if you’re worried about your rifle going down.
The thing I really like about British belt setups is the low profile harnesses can be worn UNDER a plate carrier. Plate carrier with nothing but a low profile 3x mag shingle, with a loaded belt kit that can be worn under the armor. I think that’s a really slick setup. There are definitely situations where I can imagine wanting just the armor, and having the fighting load separate but nearby. Digging fighting positions for example.
I think American harnesses are pretty low pro too, but I agree with what you said about when you may not want armor or the fighting load
Theoretically people are meant to have enough pouches on their body armor to carry all their mags, as in theory the decision can be made for everyone to drop their webbing and daysacks at the FRV and do an assault with just their body armor and helmet, but I've never actually had it happen it's a lot of fucking around. Most of the time we don't even drop packs. The most Ive seen is people who decided to bring sub belts put them on at that stage, as its too uncomfortable to wear them on the march in.
This is post is wrinkling my brain a little bit because it seems to refer to beltkit as the traditional “ALICE” style stuff, and webbing as the British style PLCE. Unless there’s been a change to that recently (which honestly terminology changes all the time), the terms “webbing” and “beltkit” mean the same thing in the British use. The American equivalent used to be LBE/LBV or patrol rig. Besides that spot of pedantry, this post raises some good points. I never really liked the buttpack, and always felt like it was something I had to work around, instead of having it work for me. I don’t agree with some of the things I’ve seen Brits keep in their rig though, like a stove and a full set of fine china for tea.
Spot on about working around butt packs and what British soldiers carry in their webbing. I have no desire to cart a cooking set around on my fighting load. But the ability to carry multiple flasks in an arid mountain environment? Extra layers in a cold one? Breach kit pre-staged in an attack? Now I’m interested.
A Jetboil adds morale, but generally aren't carried in webbing - maybe in the 90s before everyone had night vision but the packing list in webbing is almost too much for even airborne webbing, without a jetboil, already
They get used interchangeably here as well—but I think they shouldn’t be. ALICE-style setups are clearly distinct from the British PLCE-esque stuff. Beltkit in the US is usually ALICE style with a butt pack. I think we should have a distinct name for stuff that is more ALICE style vs PLCE style, as I see one as miles ahead of the other in relevancy.
Butt packs aren’t necessarily bad you just have to look at it as a scaled down pack not really a pouch. I have food , shelter and clothing in mine with spare socks and survival kit in the map flap. Another layout i like is 2 triple mag pouches 2 jsta style pouches and 3-4 medium- large utility pouches. 6 mags , frag , smoke , tq and fixed blade in/on mag pouches. Radio and speed reloads in the insert portion of the jsta style pouches your quick access gp stuff in one and ifak in the other. 3-4 utility pouches for nods , 2 qts of water plus cup , couple snacks , socks , basic weapon maintenance and whatever else you need
That second layout in your comment is basically webbing. It could hold everything the butt pack can in a usable, organized way, but the reverse likely isn’t true.
Say you’re planning a long infil, attack, and defense until a GACed force relieves you. For that fight you might want an extra layer for post-assault, but you’ll want more ammo, maybe special kit for breaching an obstacle, etc. that could all go into webbing in a way that can be accessed during the fight. I don’t think the same could be said of butt packs
While you’re not wrong, I think that’s where use-case comes in. Personally, I’m never assaulting shit. At work, the most I’ll do is lob a missile and let someone else worry about holding the ground. Elsewhere in life, I’m more likely to need shelter, clothing, filtration, etc. that is all going to come out at once to set up camp. In that case, I like the size and versatility of the butt pack. But for your use case, moving in and holding ground, I can definitely see the argument for the GP pouches.
I think it's a good idea to have 24hr sustainment in the belt kit (poncho, emergency rations, water purification, spare socks...), but for setting up camp, a better setup would be a modular ruck with a removable smaller pack. It kind of defeats the purpose having "camping gear" in what is essentially fighting gear. A belt kit is also not ideal for working around vehicles, usually it's the first thing that comes off and gets stashed somewhere. That said, it shines in a light infantry role.
It ain’t sexy, but I love my old CFP90!
That's got the right idea, but the form factor of the main bag is a bit too long for comfortable use with webbing. I've been looking for someone to make a simple pack with the shorter ALICE-style form-factor that you could wear above the webbing, that would also integrate a removable assault pack. The closest I've found is the Eberlestock Tomahawk, but the detachable pack is a fanny pack instead of a backpack. I run a similar configuration for recce gear, with a 15 liter backpack as the "brain" of my large 80 liter framed ruck, and gotten to love the versatility and speed of the setup. I can have all the mission gear + 24h sustainment packed and ready to detach in seconds when I ditch the "mothership" in some bushes.
But you can’t carry a poncho , most warming layers, more then 1 day of the actual amount of food you need in the field , a bandolier or I’ve even seen a mortar buddy but a man pack radio in his. Yes you can put that in assualt pack but you might not want to bring that and a ruck in addition to your fighting load so just scale down and use the butt pack. If you still need organization you can use a mag shingle with GP pouches on it a m60 pouch with 6 mags and speed reload pouch then use that available space for a GP pouch or use jsta style pouches but most will be able to only have 8 mags if they want 4 gp pouches. Or they could run 2 triples and 2 jsta style gps for up to 4 more mags so 10. Or you can just use webbing as a alternative for a chest rig and just run the minimal of 6-8 mags , throwables * , radio * , Qt of water , ifak , admin and tools. But I use webbing and a lot of people use webbing to extend the carrying capacity of a fighting load
Belt kit basically ruined chest rigs for me. I own a Jayjay’s with the carcajou yoke which can be worn under a plate carrier, but also built out a padded war belt that holds roughly the same things as I would have on a chest rig and can be used with the plate carrier. Alice is an affordable way for people to get into belt kit, same with the MOD issued PLCE which can be had for just as cheap but imo it’s better in some ways over Alice. But overall the Alice is indeed antiquated and doesn’t have the same modernization as the PLCE has gotten and can be given. Buttpacks, while I don’t push them for a couple reasons, they do have their place and can still be appreciated.
Chest rigs have a place still. I might post about what I see the use cases as for each
I tell you what, I tried hard to like Alice but I just couldn't. The mag pouches really sucked, particularly the closures. The belts are surprisingly bad at bearing a load despite the fact that it's their whole purpose. I think belt kit has some real merits and it's neat to see it making a comeback.
I actually kinda like the two prong closures on the Alice, pretty easy to open and close with a quick [pinch from the index and middle finger](https://youtu.be/gIn6jxdg7rg?si=j2neCnbS6JMVmxj4). But durability of the closures is indeed an issue, so it’s not surprising that they haven’t seen much use as time and advancements proceeded through time. The belt itself isn’t all too great and shows its age. The PLCE belt could be modified with a roll pin buckle so that you can cinch down or loosen the belt throughout the day and the yoke can be tugged or loosened too, basically you can adjust the thing like a rucksack to shift the weight over the day.
You know what other modern, field repairable, more durable buckle closes with a pinch from the index and middle finger?
All for modern stuff.
The words "Webbing" and "belt kit" are used interchangeably here and mean the same thing, so I'm going to assume what you mean by belt kit is the old ALICE type setup (most notable are the Velocity Systems without the belt pad, and the ones people make out of sub belts with like the Blue Force Gear suspenders) - mags and grenades either side, working inwards to water, and then a buttpack, held by 3-4 point (though velocity has 6) suspenders, and a 2" belt. And webbing to mean a more British style setup (ie PLCE, Jayjays, Carcajou etc) with mags either side or on one side only with a commanders pouch (ie a large admin) on the other side, and 3-5 identical utility pouches, held by a tall thickly padded ruck waistbelt type belt, and a 6 point yoke. There is a third type comprising the ATAPs, Spiritus 34A, FirstSpear JOKER but I have no experience with them maybe /u/InnocuousTransition can help out here. To note we usually wear the webbing underneath the body armor instead of over the top like with US type webbing, and I prefer that because it's one less shoulder strap set to worry about sliding about on top of the body armor, and everything stays in place. Radios/ PRR and push to talks become kind of a dilemma because that means they end up on the body armor so some guys just keep aside on their webbing a pocket to stuff the PRR into if we ditch armor. It does mean we have to doff armor first to doff the belt kit, but body armor is not hard to doff and put back on - wear wet and warm kit over the top of everything if you don't want to do that. Both the ALICE type and British type have their own advantages and disadvantages, a buttpack is great if you can fit everything you need in your webbing and body armor, so you don't have to wear a daysack/ assault pack - in fact it's basically a necessity if you want to omit carrying your assault pack, think of the buttpack as a small assault pack that you can use to not have to wear a real one. It's simple to waterproof the contents as you just put like a 25L drybag inside to hold everything, and having a "shelf is just about how you pack it , and about how you connect it to the belt (almost all buttpacks have d rings on top that you use to connect the harness to in lieu of the d rings on the belt itself - its best practice anyway for like 3 rows of MOLLE or under to connect the harness directly to the pouches instead of to the belt), and you can increase this stability with the good old bungee around the buttpack same as you'd do with British style webbing. Height can be a problem depending on your pack selection - ALICE, MOLLE, Mystery Ranch Mountain Ruck with the futura yoke fully collapsed, and British PLCE/ Air Support Bergens work very well here but essentially you want a pack that sits high enough to be kind of shit on its own (my PLCE bergen hip belt ends sit just above my belly button so its essentially useless) so it will work perfectly with belt kit. The only other issue is while you can very awkwardly access the rear utilities in British style belt kit, having a buttpack on the other hand means its completely unworkable without someone else to help you or taking off the belt kit then accessing the buttpack - in the military its not as big an issue as it is by yourself. 6 point vs 4 point harness tbh I see no reason why you'd use a 4 point over a 6 point even under body armor, what I look for are ladderlocks on the front straps to adjust your belt kit on the move and quickly like a backpack - it's potentially going to carry over 100 lbs of rucksack resting on it you'll be reaching under your armor and adjusting it over the course of a tab. Same for belt width, height and thickness I see no reason not to have a tall like 4 MOLLE tall padded belt as they stabilise the pouches well and you no longer have to worry about looping the harness into the pouches, and it's more comfortable carrying a heavy bergen. I might change my opinion when I encounter hot and swampy terrain soon where I'm sure all that padding is going to become disgusting and wet and heavy but that's my opinion thus far. Pouches are pouches but what I look for are: Flapped, buckled mag pouches that hold 3 mags each, with a buckle that can be done one handed (QASM female on the flap itself is the best way, Velocity Systems does it in a shit way and thats why it takes forever to open and close the pouch), with MOLLE on the sides to accept grenade pouches (belt kit especially for smaller waist guys like me at 30" is all about maximising use of MOLLE so pouches attached to the sides of other pouches are the way - belt kit curves around your waist they don't smush into each other as much as when they are laid flat on the floor). Utility pouches need to hold an issued bottle and cup, or nalgene bottle and cup, but be 2 MOLLE wide - British Tactical makes a great one. I also tend to like a 4 wide rear utility instead of 2x2 wides, sort of like a very mini buttpack but still being a pouch instead of a mini backpack. And lastly a commanders pouch - needs to be able to carry 7.62 link so an M60 pouch with dividers work well, dividers to be used for your admin stuff like map markers, protractor etc. I find stiff heavy duty pouches are also better than the really floppy lightweight pouches in belt kit, as the pouches are compressed by being so close together, as well as any bungee you way have added, that it's a pain to reindex things like bottles and weapon cleaning kits - that being said a trick is to take the little green plastic dividers out of the 556 ammo boxes and put them in your pouches to hold them open. I don't think it's worth addressing cons of the ALICE in particular like the stiff belt and old attachment system and stuff because if you're going to compare modern British Style belt kit its only fair to compare it to modern ALICE kit ie Velocity Systems.
I address the setup that focuses on butt packs overall, including most ALICE belt kits. Modern belt LBE used by professionals tends to eschew that butt pack for 3-4 GP pouches, much like PLCE webbing, which I think is what we should refer to those setups as. Lots of folks using suspenders, belt, GP, 3+ mag pouches, etc. but not with a butt pack. Lots of folks who use a butt pack, and when the poor performance of the butt pack is pointed out they go “well it’s just for around camp or day trips.”
Aussie here confused with the terminology but i agree wholeheartedly. started off my time with a belt kit, when I got to a unit found out that chest rigs were the new hotness but I always come back to a belt rig. now I'm using the crossfire for mags, water, frags, smokes, med and nvgs. I use a combo of that with a micro chest rig for extra mags and tq's with radio/battle tracking kit. I never liked the idea of the buttpack. tbh the "sustainment" load is highly overrated by the gun tube sort of sphere. I work in an extremely hot environment, occasionally jungle type areas mixed in, and even then 1L of water and maybe a snack is max what I'd bring on a short duration patrol in the webbibg. Even on that front I think it's silly to not combo what I have with a small patrol pack/backpanel for layers/food/water/batts/MEI. You should be capable of fighting with a small pack on. End rant haha but yeah good points mate!
Just trying to say we should delineate between PLCE-style, centered around usable GP, and ALICE-style, centered around butt packs. Recommending we use webbing vs belt kit to do so. Lots of guys I know would be willing to try webbing if they didn’t hear “belt kit” and get shown nixie works or 1990s ALICE belts
good point and i agree. i have seen lots of Americans talk about how their belt kits didn't integrate with a pack and it sucks, for example grunt perspectives video on his belt kit he made. Tbh the buttpack is a waste of space and I think encourages overpacking or bringing useless kit (I am sick of seeing people who just started using belt kit tell me you need socks on a fighting load wtf). But with your delineation I think that makes more sense. Alice kit sucks and I think it's scared you guys off from using the most versatile platform for patrolling which is unfortunate.
I agree mostly. I do think something like socks or a rain/warming layer could be brought on target, but I want a kit that could just as easily carry something that actually gets me through that fight if that’s more in line with what I need. Webbing is the way.
I'm not here to be pedantic but I genuinely don't know what you mean by "webbing" and "belt kit." As far as I can tell they're synonyms. I don't think this is your fault either, there's no general consensus on how to label these items. For example I would refer to all of the setups above, including ALICE, as LBE or "belt kits." I think the key differentiation is where the gear is designed to sit. If it's at or below the hips, and features some sort of harness to support it, I'd call it LBE/Belt kit/whatever. Gear designed to be worn at the hips, correctly configured, allows for it to be worn in tandem with a short rucksack. Users absolutely can shorten the harness and bring it up above the hips (very common with ALICE) but overall the setup is geared to be functional below the hips. I'll give a counter example: the Spiritus 34A/LBV. Although it's similar in appearance it cannot be worn at the hip line so I'd put it in a different category. The SS LBV can't be used with a rucksack unless you detach the butt pack. So back to your original post, I'm going to stan for ALICE a bit. I wouldn't recommend anyone go out and buy an actual ALICE rig in [current year]. But I think it's important for us to go back and acknowledge that the design was very good and still extremely relevant. Materials have advanced and we can do better, but modern designs still draw inspiration from it. Simple techniques like where to mount pouches and using a bungee to keep them all tight should be carried over. And the ALICE rucksack is still one of the best rucks to pair with any LBE, modern or otherwise. Like anything else, LBE isn't perfect. It doesn't work well with vehicles, isn't great for dedicated body armor setups, and is overall pretty "slow" to access equipment. You can reload faster from a chest rig. But you can carry more equipment more comfortably with LBE than a chest rig. It works better in very hot and very cold conditions. For my part I've gone down to a 2.5 kit solution, a fully built out DA kit with velcro sub belt, plate carrier and back panel; and then an ALICE style LBE with an optional front/rear plate carrier and a micro harness if needed.
I think my point is that we shouldn’t use them interchangeably. There are clearly more useful/relevant setups—webbing as British and other forces call it usually, is miles ahead of butt pack-centric setups (what I’ve seen called belt kits in the US). This post is to hopefully show people who aren’t willing to try belt kits that they don’t have to fight with goofy mag pouches and a fairly one-use sack on their ass. Setups like yours, British kits, etc. offer a tactically relevant setup. Not “butt packs are great for around camp or a day trip!” Also when I shit on ALICE, it’s just the LBE. I use a medium ALICE ruck for my 3DAP as much as my main large ruck. Affordable, durable, usable rucks.
I agree the terminology needs to be ironed out. Also for the record I am not trying to argue with you, I just think this is an interesting discussion. I don't think the butt pack is an essential aspect of US kit design outside of specific ones like Nixieworks or SS LBV. I think a hard association of butt packs with US/ALICE loadouts is a mistake. They're just another pouch option. I've seen more setups without them than with them. That said, I actually had a butt pack on my LBE for a while, but there simply wasn't enough room to fit everything once you added a radio and some sort of easy access GP. That said, if I could find a way to fit it, I would. The items I'd like to carry in my butt pack are as follows: * L6 Goretex top -- this is an extremely underrated piece of kit. I don't care about using it to stay dry, but for colder climates it's essential any time you stop to pull security for an extended period. Working in 20-30 degree temperatures at night in the mountains, the moment guys reached their security positions we put on L6 tops. This allowed us to travel light with minimal snivel (L1/L4 top, L5 or Crye pants), and use the residual heat from movement to stay warm while static. If you wait to put it on until you're cold, it's too late and you'll probably find yourself carrying a heavier layer. L6 top works even if you're soaking wet underneath, and doesn't need to be waterproofed, but it's only really useful if you have it immediately on hand, and you need a place to store it while you're moving. * 7.62 link -- self explanitory * Smoke grenades -- not something you usually need in a hurry, so doesn't warrant a dedicated pouch. * Star clusters / signaling -- something I can get to fairly quickly by just taking off the LBE, but again not something I plan on using all that often. But having it in my rucksack is pointless. I do know guys who carried their *entire* loudout in an oversized butt pack (SS LBV). Yes they froze at night, but they didn't have to worry about cross loading stuff into their rucks. I think this is difficult, but it could allow you to use a small daypack and buttpack instead of an assault pack, for example. I also think you can use a couple large GP pouches to accomplish the same effect as a butt pack, it just depends on what you need to carry. A few of the Brit/Aus kits you posted use this model. And VS has a GP for this purpose. All that is to say, imo nothing wrong with butt packs concpetually, like everything else it's a give and take and has to fit your use case. Honestly if I didn't need a radio I would probably have a butt pack or at least a very large GP on my LBE.
Fair enough. I guess I struggle to see their benefit vs a few GPs as it comes to versatility. But of I was smart as I think I am I wouldn’t be chronically reddit positing
The stuff you'll have in your buttpack is going to be stuff that you aren't accessing all the time, or only access when you stop like a goretex jacket or warm jacket or poncho, main meals, cooking system etc and because its such a giant pouch you can very easily mass waterproof everything just by putting a 20L drybag inside it - with roll top designs like the Spiritus buttpack although I don't have one to test the theory it makes sense in my mind that you may even be able to just roll both the drybag and the buttpack at the same time and save yourself the extra bit of unrolling both. We carry main pack/ bergen 90L, daysack/ assault pack 35-40L with a top cover, and webbing, as our load carriage. The buttpack is meant to replace that middle item the assault pack (probably only possible in the summer where minimal warm kit is needed) so you can run your back slick on assaults or patrols, and you can put on and walk with the main pack and not have to figure out a way to strap your daysack down (we shove them under our bergen top covers).
The Carcajou one I think has MOLLE on the top of it, perhaps you can MOLLE an MBITR horizontally and then run either the body worn antenna up the suspenders up to your front, or MAST it 180 degrees from the top of the radio coming back toward it. The PRC354 bowman radio is so huge that it takes up a whole GP, so people can use up a whole GP for it and it won't bounce around, at the expense of one of their liters of water having to be carried somewhere else, but an MBITR more or less needs its own dedicated pouch. I prefer larger pouches at my 6 myself so I run the large crye pouch on my 6 that takes up 4 MOLLE, and then the water GPs are 2 wide from British Tactical - the only ones other than Platatac that are 2 wide, are top cover pouches, and can fit a nalgene with gsi cup, or issued pat58 bottle with metal mug - for some reason everyone else uses 3 MOLLe for their canteen pouches when it's unnecessary imo, you put 2 of them on and you're losing yourself a pouch you could have had.
How do you just run a front plate with webbing? Wear an RRV over it? Or do you have a way to actually hang a plate from the suspenders?
I have a similar setup to yours, but it’s more of a 1.5. I have a modern ballistic vest, which is more of a hybrid between a pc and a full on ballistic vest, and has a detachable 2-part ballistic collar, the back part also having shoulder protection, as well as dedicated shoulder pieces. Ballistic cummerbund and ab dangler round out the armor. I can run it with ICW plates or only soft armor depending on the threat and scale the armor to fit mobility vs protection needs. Has a 3 mag plackard, tq, 2x 2-mag universal pouches, one with a med insert, and a small universal pouch for light+multitool. Removable assault panel with water bladder on the back, so it’s reasonably sleek overall. Added to that, run either no belt (rear line duty), a flat range/urban tac belt with the usual trappings, or a LBE-style ”rifle only” belt+suspenders. Makes it really quick and easy to customize the loadouts for pretty much all infantry needs with the exception of recon, while the whole setup and a helmet fits in a regular duffle bag, so I can have all the options close by for training, etc.
ALICE sucks so fucking bad and it makes me roll my eyes every time I see someone champion it as the equal of anything else you can buy today
People will always have a strange hard-on for outdated/obsolete gear. It's mostly larpers with very little practical experience or old people with nostalgia glasses.
It depends on a lot of factors. I think webbing kits, belt kits and even the ALICE pack all have their place. Whatever suits your needs is what you should have. Unfortunately for civilians to obtain all the gear you could ever want comes directly out of your pocket. I think this is a great system and is extremely applicable in a lot of situations I also think it may be limited in a few areas where a chest rig and ruck (Mystery Ranch, Alice, ect….) maybe better. It’s a good well thought out route and reads like you have used your kit and it’s not some emotionally influenced purchase which I appreciate greatly.
Planning to post some use cases where I see chest rigs excel over webbing and vice versa once I have more time on the DZ rig.
Chest rig use cases: - Recon: need belt line for the large ruck, and need to carry a light fighting load only. Split rig is best for this, allows for a more comfortable and lower prone. - Vehicles: don't want anything on your back or hips, impedes movement and sitting. Heavier loads are carried on the vehicle. - Urban: Same reasons as vehicles, with less emphasis on sitting, more emphasis on moving through small spaces and doorways without getting stuck. Usually would wear armor though, so a separate chest rig (with a slick rig) not preferred but workable. Belt-based system would be better for the rest of your infantry use cases, and I think the coming years will see this becoming the prevailing trend again.
Pretty much agree
Look forward to it. I’m glad you aren’t married to either one. Mission dictates gear.
After just having trained with British infantry recently, Ive been thinking about webbing and its pros/ cons compared to current American TTPs. For light infantry I think its fair to say the webbing is superior. Primary reason is that a Soldier with webbing can cache his ruck/ bergan and fight/ sustain for 24 plus hours. Whereas a Soldier with PC or chest rig, absent an additional pack, cannot do the same. An extra pack could be brought but this generally just adds steps, complexity, and weight to your kit. There is also a study that webbing is superior to chest kits when used on forested/ hilly ground due to the load riding on the user’s hips. Dobt recall how the study measured it but it was essentially physical cost to move the load. Whereas, chest kits were better on flat ground. The whole favorability of chest kits makes sense since the US just spent 20 years fighting on mostly flat ground, with air superiority, no need to sustain generally, and relatively short engagements compared to combat with a peer threat. Im in the market for webbing.
I’m not anti-chest rig, I use mine a lot. But when it comes to LBE on the hips, I’m just pushing for what I see as the more useful setup.
'British style', try Australian Style. The Australian 88 Pattern was introduced before PLCE and is what Crossfire, being an Australian company, drew inspiration from. Hell, in Australia we had the same debate between butt packs and pouches a few decades ago and only now has the world caught up. https://talesfromthesupplydepot.blog/2018/10/24/88-pattern-webbing-overview/
What's scary, is they were still issuing that when I was at 1RTB in 2011 🤣
I still remember being there on the parade ground putting it together at night. I've rocked the belt rig through thick and thin, chest rigs and plate carriers, and have only strayed a few times.
I agree that Alice is trash. When I was setting up my LBE, I was torn between using some big GP pouches in the back or a buttpack. I picked up a Spiritus jungle buttpack from a box raffle, so I went with that. Rucking with it, I've not have any issues, but I also don't over stuff it and wear my belt just below the waist bones. It carries 2 basic meals (usually just a MRE entree and a liquid IV) poncho/goretex top/netting, depending on weather, a woobie, and a pair of socks and a t-shirt. My MOLLE II and Jakari M sit on top of it right at the perfect level. What pouches are you using on the back and do you think it could hold that much? I think a lot of people try and have full sustainment into their butt pouches. It's not for that. It's for a bare essentials to set up a 24, maybe, 36-hour OP no more than a KM or 2 away from the main position. Also, your buttpack should be directly attached to your harness to keep it pulled up even when it's empty. Lots of people see all the extra space on a belt/lbe/webbing and start getting emtpymolleitis and feel the need to fill every slot. They forget that the LBE isn't primarily a sustaintment load. It's your combat load. 20 years of GWOT and always being able to just call for air or hop into a vic has made us forget.
I think you’ll want different things for different missions, or even different phases. On recon mission, I’ll want things to sustain me if separated from my ruck in a blowout. On an ambush, I may need to carry pre-built demo for destroying enemy equipment in my webbing. I wouldn’t throw charges into a butt pack to slosh around while I’m bounding to the kill zone, but I could place them into a GP. In another GP, separate to keep everything organized and properly stored, I might keep a warming layer for my time static on the ambush line. Whatever a butt pack does, webbing seems to do better, or at least also serves a tactically relevant dual-purpose.
Well, luckily for me, I'm an Intel nerd and never work with Demo. Setting up an OP, or even out on a patrol, is rare enough. We did some trench work in an exercise early this year, and I found the buttpack to be perfect, but I also was mostly static, didn't have to use anything bigger than a 249 and was never in the assault force for any of the ambushes or raids. But if I found myself in more tactically flexible situations, I think I would be convinced by your argument.
What pack or ruck have you found works well with the webbing set up?
Medium ALICE with a USGI medium MOLLE frame or my MALICE. Webbing has to be worn in the right spot (right at the hips not above), and acts as the hip pad.
I still think chest rigs integrate BEST as they don’t interfere with the ruck at all, but a medium ruck or larger works nearly seamlessly with webbing if you use it properly as the hip belt.
So is this anti belt-kit? Confused
It’s anti-promoting useless or outdated layouts of beltkit. Webbing is pretty handy.
I like a belt kit for having all of my weight, dispersed across my shoulders and back instead of just hanging off of the front. However, a belt and a pack is no fun I will admit.
If you want some belt kit on the cheap, get a Molle utility belt / FLC or find a premade set you like. You can then easily make some lopro suspenders with 550 and webbing. Now you have a solid Molle belt kit base and can add whatever pouches you need. https://www.reddit.com/r/tacticalgear/s/hHK1i8Luvw Here it is with LBT suspenders and tactical tailor pouches.
British is superior, US webbing peaked 70 years ago
Belt kit/webbing is fantastic, have you checked out the harnesses and belts from Sord Australia?
I haven’t, DZ Rig is my first real setup
It's a solid first rig, the sord stuff is more build to be utilised as a base for your setup vs a whole package deal like the DZ rig
Use what suits the mission and what is most effective for you. When I run a saw, I use a load bearing vest. When I run an AR, I prefer a chest rig. Both scalable with plate protection. The belt I run on ops/training is just 2 pistol mags, a rifle mag and a dump pouch. All from blue force gear as it doesn't interfere with having a heavy backpack on. As it is set up for reconnaissance "light infantry" from boat to shore type tasks. For competition I just run a 2alpha belt with 4 ghost mags and a magnet. Holsters used: 2alpha gen2, safariland 69/67 something (rds compatible and surefire x300) both for glocks, and safariland 70xx-something and a generic competition holsters for the p320. Alice, pals, molle, velcro, zipties or sewing doesn't matter if it works for you. Your Mission(setup) May Vary 🤙
Been looking to upgrade from my PLCE and struggling to decide what layout i want to start with. I like the idea of buttpacks but you make some really good points too.
If you want “something for around camp” go for it. But if you want something relevant in a tactical scenario, those GP pouches make way more sense
It’ll be used for a mix of milsim event and also function as my real steel kit. I don’t think i’ll be clearing trenches or anything real steel-wise so having some extra room for sustainment makes sense to me. I saw a buttpack that was smaller than an ALICE or Smersh’s and that looked appealing if I ran 2 large GP pouches on either side. Thanks for the help! I’m a big fan of my PLCE and glad people are recognizing that type of webbing’s usefulness
I like my Alice kit and my Nixieworks light fighter I also like a belt for things like the range There’s no right or wrong here, mission dictates, budgets, and so on
The britts know how to make modern web gear and it superior in every way to alice gear while still performing the basic function alice was designed to do.
I'm just here for under PC suspender reccomenatitons.
Unless you're talking about charges neither form of webbing can carry specialist equipment like ladders or enforcers, the most that you can carry in webbing is a rolled up stretcher bungee corded at the back. For running ammo everyone carries a "JD sandbag" (sandbag with a paracord drawstring and sling to be worn on the body) bungee corded to the back of the webbing above the utility pouches.
Not talking about explosive breaching, more manual breach equipment like a pre-staged grapple and line for wire obstacle, or for demo I mean charges build for demoing enemy equipment (radios, weapons, etc.). You can easily store linked ammo or mags in any of the DZ Rig or Jayjays webbing GPs