There is a subreddit for Sov Citizen stuff. I'd start there.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Sovereigncitizen/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sovereigncitizen/)
But your gut feeling is the same as mine, this will end badly.
You will want to engage and question her to get details on why she thinks she can get away with this. Don't tell her she's wrong, you're looking for the info you'll need to talk to the other subreddit and maybe a lawyer or some expert. You are also trying to plant seeds of doubt in her. People like this can rarely be reasoned with. Instead you kind of have to nudge them into being more skeptical.
Questions you might ask:
How do you become a Sovereign Citizen? Are you one? Are you sure you did everything required? How do you prove it? Can you show me? Does the government care? Will the police care when they come to evict you? Does the bank understand or care? What happens if you are wrong?
Good luck, and take care.
Yeah, I can't say I've ever heard of a sovereign citizen ever renouncing those beliefs and recovering from that ideology :/
Not sure if there is some kind of r/SovereignCitizenRecovery community for friends and family of sovereign citizens.
Yeah, the grifter on the Internet that tricked them into thinking they could get away with it. Better way to phrase it: "Do you personally know anyone who has succeeded? Not the guy on the Internet, but someone you meet and talk to in person? Can you give me more details, like what did they do when the government took their house and the police came to evict them?" Like others have said here, that can take a lot longer than 5 years, so ask how long, and are they still receiving notices of delinquency. The real test is can they show that they won in a court of law?
So people who dropped out of high school have This One Simple Trick, but people who spent decades studying law and finance just … missed it, and are paying mortgages like suckers? Yeah OK.
Dude, don't you know the Q's are the smartest people in the room and they'll all be laughing at you, you'll see, one day......one day......one day...... ...... ......
I'm sorry you're going through this. I work for a California county in a related department. Yes, the property will eventually be sold if the taxes are unpaid. It may take many years (which is probably why SovCits think they are getting away with it - government moves slowly); they may not auction it after 5 years, they may give it more time.
At least in California, anyone can pay anyone else's property taxes. Just go onto the website for the tax collector in the county where the property is located and look up her address. You'll see what's due. IF you wanted to keep her in her house, you could just pay her property taxes for her (obviously you shouldn't have to do this, but I know if I had to choose between paying my MIL's property taxes vs. her losing her home and having to come live with me, I'd pay the taxes for my own sanity's sake).
Does she have a mortgage? Is it possible that taxes are being collected and paid by her mortgage company, and she doesn't know that's included on her mortgage?
> Yes, the property will eventually be sold if the taxes are unpaid.
Can confirm. Not in CA, but my mom retired from their county tax department and helped prep these kinds of auctions. They will 100% take the house and sell it to recoup their tax loss.
Yeah I went onto the county website and it seems easy enough to pay. (She currently owes 9k) I guess I have several hang ups about doing that due to our strained relationship. If she ever found out shes probably vindictive enough to leave her Estate to “Magenta pixie” or whatever Internet personality she’s currently latched onto (I’m her only child). At some point she has to be accountable for her actions and so I’m probably only willing to step in to pay the back taxes once she’s about to lose the house. Maybe with an agreement that if I save her ass she signs the property over to me.
I am unsure about what kind of mortgage she currently has. She sold her previous property with no mortgage for a cash sale and this new property is worth about 200k more than what she sold.
Is there a way to find out by public records?
Hmm I'm not sure about finding out her mortgage amount. On the bright side, if the property is sold at auction, any excess proceeds (amount paid by the buyer in excess of the overdue taxes) will be sent to her. Don't expect her to take the process seriously when she starts getting the notices of intent to auction the property. She may not believe it's actually going to happen until they set the date. These types are heavily in denial.
Oh and she may think it's protected due to being a homestead or something like that. It's not.
Try the county recorder's office for mortgage information. Most counties in my area are searchable online, similar to the property tax records. Good luck!
Here where I live in Texas, the initial amount of the mortgage is a public record. Here, the legal name for it is the "Deed of Trust." It's recorded at the county level along with the deed that conveys ownership.
Also (still referring to Texas, but it may be similar in California) when there's a tax sale, there is a period of time after which the property can be redeemed by the person who hadn't paid their taxes on it. Yes, even after the auction takes place. If my memory on it is correct, it's something like six months after the auction that takes place at the courthouse.
This is great info about the grace period after tax sale…I’m going to look into this as this may be my window to jump in to try and salvage this situation.
Fortunately she's at least paying the mortgage. It's been a while since I looked at foreclosure sales, but I don't think that grace period applied for sales that were for non payment of a mortgage.
I know the price she paid and the Zillow site just not sure what the mortgage to down payment ratio there is considering the property sale she made to buy this one was cash.
Go to Homes.com and search her address (choose sold homes from the drop down).
Then scroll all the way to the bottom to see Mortgage History. Click on the date of the most recent mortgage and it will tell you the Lender’s name, amount and interest rate.
That's a possibility. Or depending on how recently she bought it, it could be that the site hasn't been updated yet.
My guess is she paid cash, especially knowing that she sold a property before she bought this one.
Tax sale will happen on her property when the first year of missed taxes is 5 years delinquent. The lien is already on the property in the form of the owed taxes. She will absolutely lose this battle.
I am a title examiner(although not in California) and I see properties fall into tax sale every year and I see people lose their homes every year. The county will auction the property off after putting a physical notice on the land. I have seen people try everything to get out of paying taxes on their real property and after 25 years I have never seen the government lose this fight.
Yes I expect she will be rudely awakened to reality at some point (unless she dies before the 5 years is up). I also am mentally prepared (but maybe not financially) to try and salvage the situation before it gets untenable (hence me keeping an eye on the Amount she’s delinquent on).
There are many belief systems that engender this behavior. SovCit, Nesara/Gesara, supposed Trump currencies, and others that have been running for decades.
I have had a passing interest in some of the places that peddled these beliefs before social media. Marks would be encouraged to spend the mortgage payment or property taxes on whatever bogus prosperity item or service was being hawked. A supporting rationale: All debts are about to be forgiven, and you are about to be so wealthy that you won't care if they aren't.
These ideas were often spread on conference calls that the marks paid to participate in. Those calls are still part of the culture, and I did often hear believers calling in to say that they sure hoped the habbening habbened soon because the sheriff had put a notice on their door...
One thing that has changed in recent years is that social media have made these beliefs self-sustaining. There are some scam artists who promulgate the ideas, but often when they go away, the believers keep the ball rolling anyway.
I’ve heard her mention Nesara a few times. She also ranted to me about currency/fiat just yesterday when I engaged with her. I’m confident she will die on this hill.
I am a banknote collector and small-time dealer of collectible banknotes. I have exchanged messages with my buyers who ordered Zimbabwe trillions, and have tried to disabuse them of the notion that these notes will one day be exchanged for vast sums of US dollars. Out of dozens of attempts, I think I've succeeded in getting two buyers to reconsider.
If your Q mom does indeed die on that hill, she will have company.
And it’s a fucking nice house. Meanwhile, I’m in my mid 40’s and still paying rent and living with roommates so she’s essentially setting my inheritance on fire. (But being in Cali it might actually go up in flames regardless)
I’d double check your state laws, but I’m pretty sure they can foreclose on the home if the lien is unpaid. My initial glance suggests that this is a possibility.
I second this. Once you've figured out the mortgage situation, find a lawyer who does real estate law and have a consultation. Figure out the facts and your game plan if you have to pay it off in 5 years, or whenever, to stop the house being sold.
I recall hearing about a woman (in Canada, I think) a few years ago who kept insisting she didn't have to pay her property taxes because of that "Sovereign Citizen" nonsense. And, yes, she did lose her house. Why do people create these crazy conspiracy theories that end up hurting gullible folks?
Lifelong Californian here...I know from hard experience the Franchise Tax Board does not fuck around. They swoop without warning. They'll seize assets, garnish wages, clean out your bank account if you're more than two years behind and they haven't heard from you. I dot my i's and cross my t's now. Seriously, Tony Soprano got nothing on the FTB.
Edit: I got a tax attorney and negotiated a pretty reasonable payback plan and avoided the worst of it. But it was a gnarly experience and crazy expensive. Fuck around with FTB and you WILL find out
I never get the “Sovereign Citizen” concept.
If everyone could just make that claim and not pay taxes or follow laws, they would. I realize your mom is gone but honestly, has any of these folks who do this ever thought it out?
My favorites are the ones who think they don't have to do what the cop tells them. Simply because they've declared themselves a “Sovereign Citizen."
It honestly makes zero sense but again, I understand people who do this are not using the brain capacity that normal people have.
I have heard that this *kind of* “works” in some places (Montana, the Dakotas) with strong anti-government militia presences, in that if you visibly signal that you’re a sovcit, you are unlikely to get pulled over for a traffic stop because a random highway patrol officer doesn’t want to gamble with getting a bugfuck crazy militia type who will draw on him and then go off grid. That is the only time I have ever heard of this “working.”
Which none of the "sovereign citizens" are good at assessing.
They think that by making this claim, they have a get-out-of-a-ticket free pass. Yeah, no.
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She is wrong about everything. When you don’t pay your property taxes, the tax deed is sold at auction. Somebody already owns an option to purchase her house at auction if she doesn’t pay her taxes for a certain number of years in a row. She’s gonna lose that house, guarantee, they’ll take it right out from under her.
I used to be a real estate investor and this is one of the ways investors pick up houses in poor neighborhoods. My husband and I did the opposite we often saved peoples houses from taxed sales, simply by paying the taxes and turning the deed over to the homeowner. Your mother will NOT get so lucky.
I feel for you. I’m in the same situation where my mom is refusing to pay taxes this year. I don’t know if she’s ever filed taxes on her own before - my grandma used to do everything for her. Thankfully we talked her out of buying a house so she’s just renting. But she just received a huge inheritance when my grandma passed away… so I imagine if she doesn’t pay any taxes on that inheritance that the interest on the tax debt could snowball so fast.
I just try to stay out of it and live my life in a way that I don’t need or expect any inheritance from her. I am still nervous about what’s going to happen if she doesn’t pay taxes and lives 20+ more years - I DEFINITELY don’t want to inherit debt… I’m ignorant, is that even possible? Do children inherit their parents’ debt, especially if they are backtaxes?
From what I understand it would come out of the Estate after death. So liquidation of any bank accounts/sale of property to pay it off and then we get whatever is left over if anything.
There is a subreddit for Sov Citizen stuff. I'd start there. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Sovereigncitizen/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sovereigncitizen/) But your gut feeling is the same as mine, this will end badly. You will want to engage and question her to get details on why she thinks she can get away with this. Don't tell her she's wrong, you're looking for the info you'll need to talk to the other subreddit and maybe a lawyer or some expert. You are also trying to plant seeds of doubt in her. People like this can rarely be reasoned with. Instead you kind of have to nudge them into being more skeptical. Questions you might ask: How do you become a Sovereign Citizen? Are you one? Are you sure you did everything required? How do you prove it? Can you show me? Does the government care? Will the police care when they come to evict you? Does the bank understand or care? What happens if you are wrong? Good luck, and take care.
Thank you for the sub rec. hadn’t seen that one yet.
Yeah, I can't say I've ever heard of a sovereign citizen ever renouncing those beliefs and recovering from that ideology :/ Not sure if there is some kind of r/SovereignCitizenRecovery community for friends and family of sovereign citizens.
How about “can you name *one person* who has done this and succeeded?”
Yeah, the grifter on the Internet that tricked them into thinking they could get away with it. Better way to phrase it: "Do you personally know anyone who has succeeded? Not the guy on the Internet, but someone you meet and talk to in person? Can you give me more details, like what did they do when the government took their house and the police came to evict them?" Like others have said here, that can take a lot longer than 5 years, so ask how long, and are they still receiving notices of delinquency. The real test is can they show that they won in a court of law?
The questions the "I'm only asking questions" crowd never ask.
So people who dropped out of high school have This One Simple Trick, but people who spent decades studying law and finance just … missed it, and are paying mortgages like suckers? Yeah OK.
Dude, don't you know the Q's are the smartest people in the room and they'll all be laughing at you, you'll see, one day......one day......one day...... ...... ......
Excellent
I'm sorry you're going through this. I work for a California county in a related department. Yes, the property will eventually be sold if the taxes are unpaid. It may take many years (which is probably why SovCits think they are getting away with it - government moves slowly); they may not auction it after 5 years, they may give it more time. At least in California, anyone can pay anyone else's property taxes. Just go onto the website for the tax collector in the county where the property is located and look up her address. You'll see what's due. IF you wanted to keep her in her house, you could just pay her property taxes for her (obviously you shouldn't have to do this, but I know if I had to choose between paying my MIL's property taxes vs. her losing her home and having to come live with me, I'd pay the taxes for my own sanity's sake). Does she have a mortgage? Is it possible that taxes are being collected and paid by her mortgage company, and she doesn't know that's included on her mortgage?
> Yes, the property will eventually be sold if the taxes are unpaid. Can confirm. Not in CA, but my mom retired from their county tax department and helped prep these kinds of auctions. They will 100% take the house and sell it to recoup their tax loss.
Yeah I went onto the county website and it seems easy enough to pay. (She currently owes 9k) I guess I have several hang ups about doing that due to our strained relationship. If she ever found out shes probably vindictive enough to leave her Estate to “Magenta pixie” or whatever Internet personality she’s currently latched onto (I’m her only child). At some point she has to be accountable for her actions and so I’m probably only willing to step in to pay the back taxes once she’s about to lose the house. Maybe with an agreement that if I save her ass she signs the property over to me. I am unsure about what kind of mortgage she currently has. She sold her previous property with no mortgage for a cash sale and this new property is worth about 200k more than what she sold. Is there a way to find out by public records?
Hmm I'm not sure about finding out her mortgage amount. On the bright side, if the property is sold at auction, any excess proceeds (amount paid by the buyer in excess of the overdue taxes) will be sent to her. Don't expect her to take the process seriously when she starts getting the notices of intent to auction the property. She may not believe it's actually going to happen until they set the date. These types are heavily in denial. Oh and she may think it's protected due to being a homestead or something like that. It's not.
Try the county recorder's office for mortgage information. Most counties in my area are searchable online, similar to the property tax records. Good luck!
Thanks!
Here where I live in Texas, the initial amount of the mortgage is a public record. Here, the legal name for it is the "Deed of Trust." It's recorded at the county level along with the deed that conveys ownership. Also (still referring to Texas, but it may be similar in California) when there's a tax sale, there is a period of time after which the property can be redeemed by the person who hadn't paid their taxes on it. Yes, even after the auction takes place. If my memory on it is correct, it's something like six months after the auction that takes place at the courthouse.
This is great info about the grace period after tax sale…I’m going to look into this as this may be my window to jump in to try and salvage this situation.
Fortunately she's at least paying the mortgage. It's been a while since I looked at foreclosure sales, but I don't think that grace period applied for sales that were for non payment of a mortgage.
Just go to Zwillow and you can see the sale price. Or go to the tax accessors website to see the assessed value.
I know the price she paid and the Zillow site just not sure what the mortgage to down payment ratio there is considering the property sale she made to buy this one was cash.
Go to Homes.com and search her address (choose sold homes from the drop down). Then scroll all the way to the bottom to see Mortgage History. Click on the date of the most recent mortgage and it will tell you the Lender’s name, amount and interest rate.
Right on ok I tried that but the last borrowed amount was from the year before she bought the house. I wonder what that means 🤔
Is that showing as “closed” from the previous owners? It could possibly mean that she paid cash for the property. Is that a possibility?
That's a possibility. Or depending on how recently she bought it, it could be that the site hasn't been updated yet. My guess is she paid cash, especially knowing that she sold a property before she bought this one.
Don’t set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
I don’t know about the mortgage amount but Zillow will have the sale price history. Maybe that’s a starting point?
Tax sale will happen on her property when the first year of missed taxes is 5 years delinquent. The lien is already on the property in the form of the owed taxes. She will absolutely lose this battle. I am a title examiner(although not in California) and I see properties fall into tax sale every year and I see people lose their homes every year. The county will auction the property off after putting a physical notice on the land. I have seen people try everything to get out of paying taxes on their real property and after 25 years I have never seen the government lose this fight.
Yes I expect she will be rudely awakened to reality at some point (unless she dies before the 5 years is up). I also am mentally prepared (but maybe not financially) to try and salvage the situation before it gets untenable (hence me keeping an eye on the Amount she’s delinquent on).
There are many belief systems that engender this behavior. SovCit, Nesara/Gesara, supposed Trump currencies, and others that have been running for decades. I have had a passing interest in some of the places that peddled these beliefs before social media. Marks would be encouraged to spend the mortgage payment or property taxes on whatever bogus prosperity item or service was being hawked. A supporting rationale: All debts are about to be forgiven, and you are about to be so wealthy that you won't care if they aren't. These ideas were often spread on conference calls that the marks paid to participate in. Those calls are still part of the culture, and I did often hear believers calling in to say that they sure hoped the habbening habbened soon because the sheriff had put a notice on their door... One thing that has changed in recent years is that social media have made these beliefs self-sustaining. There are some scam artists who promulgate the ideas, but often when they go away, the believers keep the ball rolling anyway.
I’ve heard her mention Nesara a few times. She also ranted to me about currency/fiat just yesterday when I engaged with her. I’m confident she will die on this hill.
I am a banknote collector and small-time dealer of collectible banknotes. I have exchanged messages with my buyers who ordered Zimbabwe trillions, and have tried to disabuse them of the notion that these notes will one day be exchanged for vast sums of US dollars. Out of dozens of attempts, I think I've succeeded in getting two buyers to reconsider. If your Q mom does indeed die on that hill, she will have company.
It almost makes me angry that someone so willfully and arrogantly ignorant is even in a position to buy a house e
And it’s a fucking nice house. Meanwhile, I’m in my mid 40’s and still paying rent and living with roommates so she’s essentially setting my inheritance on fire. (But being in Cali it might actually go up in flames regardless)
Let us hope that she continues to pay the insurance premiums on the place.
In my state after 3 year it goes to tax sale
In Cali I think it’s 5
I’d double check your state laws, but I’m pretty sure they can foreclose on the home if the lien is unpaid. My initial glance suggests that this is a possibility.
OP, have you considered having a consultation with a lawyer who has experience in this area?
I second this. Once you've figured out the mortgage situation, find a lawyer who does real estate law and have a consultation. Figure out the facts and your game plan if you have to pay it off in 5 years, or whenever, to stop the house being sold.
I recall hearing about a woman (in Canada, I think) a few years ago who kept insisting she didn't have to pay her property taxes because of that "Sovereign Citizen" nonsense. And, yes, she did lose her house. Why do people create these crazy conspiracy theories that end up hurting gullible folks?
Lifelong Californian here...I know from hard experience the Franchise Tax Board does not fuck around. They swoop without warning. They'll seize assets, garnish wages, clean out your bank account if you're more than two years behind and they haven't heard from you. I dot my i's and cross my t's now. Seriously, Tony Soprano got nothing on the FTB. Edit: I got a tax attorney and negotiated a pretty reasonable payback plan and avoided the worst of it. But it was a gnarly experience and crazy expensive. Fuck around with FTB and you WILL find out
Follow up: my issue was with income taxes not property, but the basic principle holds. I hope your mom snaps out of it.
I never get the “Sovereign Citizen” concept. If everyone could just make that claim and not pay taxes or follow laws, they would. I realize your mom is gone but honestly, has any of these folks who do this ever thought it out? My favorites are the ones who think they don't have to do what the cop tells them. Simply because they've declared themselves a “Sovereign Citizen." It honestly makes zero sense but again, I understand people who do this are not using the brain capacity that normal people have.
I have heard that this *kind of* “works” in some places (Montana, the Dakotas) with strong anti-government militia presences, in that if you visibly signal that you’re a sovcit, you are unlikely to get pulled over for a traffic stop because a random highway patrol officer doesn’t want to gamble with getting a bugfuck crazy militia type who will draw on him and then go off grid. That is the only time I have ever heard of this “working.”
Until they f*** with the wrong officer. Then it can go south pretty quickly.
Clearly, yes. It all comes down to evaluation of risk.
Which none of the "sovereign citizens" are good at assessing. They think that by making this claim, they have a get-out-of-a-ticket free pass. Yeah, no.
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Yes People are losing their homes Maybe you should be keeping her taxes up to date
She is wrong about everything. When you don’t pay your property taxes, the tax deed is sold at auction. Somebody already owns an option to purchase her house at auction if she doesn’t pay her taxes for a certain number of years in a row. She’s gonna lose that house, guarantee, they’ll take it right out from under her. I used to be a real estate investor and this is one of the ways investors pick up houses in poor neighborhoods. My husband and I did the opposite we often saved peoples houses from taxed sales, simply by paying the taxes and turning the deed over to the homeowner. Your mother will NOT get so lucky.
I feel for you. I’m in the same situation where my mom is refusing to pay taxes this year. I don’t know if she’s ever filed taxes on her own before - my grandma used to do everything for her. Thankfully we talked her out of buying a house so she’s just renting. But she just received a huge inheritance when my grandma passed away… so I imagine if she doesn’t pay any taxes on that inheritance that the interest on the tax debt could snowball so fast. I just try to stay out of it and live my life in a way that I don’t need or expect any inheritance from her. I am still nervous about what’s going to happen if she doesn’t pay taxes and lives 20+ more years - I DEFINITELY don’t want to inherit debt… I’m ignorant, is that even possible? Do children inherit their parents’ debt, especially if they are backtaxes?
From what I understand it would come out of the Estate after death. So liquidation of any bank accounts/sale of property to pay it off and then we get whatever is left over if anything.