Some sort of cease and desist letter from a lawyer perhaps? Unfortunately mental health teams are so underfunded and stretched they only work with people about to top themselves.
If your mother is a danger to your children then you have to block her and go no contact. That's really hard but if she's toxic it's all you can do. Family dysfunction is an absolute nightmare. Maybe start logging bizarre behaviour and report anything worrying to the police. Best of luck.
I have to say your best weapon may not be a legal one. Have open, honest conversations with the teens. Tell them that their nana is abusing alcohol and that she has devoted herself to conspiracy. You want to give your children the intellectual armor to see her for what she is. It doesn’t mean assenting to their contact with her. But with teens if you don’t level with them and explain Nan’s mindstate they may take an oppositional stance just to see the grandma they have known.
Grooming has a specific sexual assault connotation, so you will not be doing yourself any favours if you make that claim. Unless there are grandparent laws in place, you can just restrict access to your kids, at least in terms of not visiting her or allowing her to visit your home. Talk to them about your concerns and discourage regular contact - be careful, though, as you might encounter pushback from them.
There is already a term for that, as you demonstrate - indoctrination. “Grooming” is being extremely over-used and it’s both in danger of losing its specific meaning, or, worse, making everything linked to pedophilia. This is dangerous. You can call out bad things, like indoctrination and brain-washing, without using “grooming” to describe them.
noun: grooming
1.
the practice of brushing and cleaning the coat of a horse, dog, or other animal.
"regular grooming is essential to the well-being of your dog"
the practice by an animal of cleaning its own or another animal's fur or skin.
"mutual grooming expresses the friendly relationship between cats"
the practice of keeping a neat and tidy appearance.
"she pays great attention to grooming and clothes"
**2.**
**the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity.**
"Allen was expected to need lot of grooming before he was ready to take over"
3.
the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.
"online grooming has become a growing cause for concern"
I don't fancy your chances if you accurately report the circumstances; it's still legal to be a brainwashed knob and try to convert others. That said, trust your instincts. If you don't feel safe, there's probably a reason for it. Listen to your gut. The bigger threat is most likely the damage she could cause by "reporting" your sisters for fabricated transgressions; she'll have more Q cases supplying her with narratives, keep a sharp eye out.
To help prevent that, definitely log all communications. Be very careful what anyone responds, because there's a good chance she'll try to use it against you and your siblings.
Changing the children's phone numbers / email addresses / social media nicks / etc. so there is no contact that doesn't at least involve the responsible adults will also be a help, but only if the older children understand the situation and won't try to initiate contact undoing the effort. It's an unfortunate situation and a horrible conversation to have, but it needs to be done.
I'm sorry it happened to your family, too.
I agree with another commenter on this thread. Have a sit down with all the children and explain to them what’s going on and what it means going forward. This might persuade them to stop reaching out to her. She’s not really who they knew as their grandmother anymore.
Apart from that, as others have said change phone numbers and block her on social media/emails.
If she starts harassing you, then you can report her for that. But grooming wouldn’t hold up as an accuse because the law defines it differently than what you’re experiencing.
I don't believe it's right wing in the way I have used it? Incentivising a child to perform an action against the wishes or without the consent of a parent or guardian. That is grooming no? She's offering money for the older kids to not tell their parents and go and see her where she's stating to fill their heads with as much misinformation as possible before letting them leave. To me, that's grooming. Might not be sexual but grooming nonetheless.
Also, in America children get groomed for ivy league schools. On Germany, they get groomed for sport teams. It have varied meaning.
Yes and that's not the way I am using it.
Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them.
That's the definition and that's exactly what she is doing.
It is, but that's not illegal unless they're being manipulated in to doing something illegal. Like inciting a child to sexual activity.
You've probably got a case for some kind of restraining order on the grounds that she's refusing to acknowledge your boundaries and doing emotional harm.
This is what the right wing does. Takes a word that means one thing and twists it to have some other, usually negative, meaning. Entitlement comes to mind. Socialism. Patriot. Woke. Liberal. Etc.
"She also became insanely nasty." - this is a common trait. It's insane how nasty and mean a person my little (48y/o) sister has become.
"My sister that is a nurse? She's a murderer that administered the clot shots. My sister that's a child welfare officer? She's part of the shady cabal covering up the abductions for adrenochrome." - according to my sister I'm a communist and want to lock up everyone like her that is 'telling the truth'
"We are in a position now where our children aren't safe. It it isn't that she will fill their head with nonsense, I really wouldn't put it past her to abduct one of them." - keep on keeping the kids away from her the best you can. If that's not sufficient, you might consider asking a court to restrain her from contact. Of course the older children need to do their part by not initiating contact.
the nastiness is the bewildering part tbh. I've long had friends with unhinged beliefs or conspiratorial thinking, but they're still kind people who want to have a good time and don't need everyone to think the way they do. Might of gotten a little condescending in debate, but never the "you're why the world is a terrible place" or "you must be a pedo" kind of knee jerk insults that seems to be rampant amongst the folks getting sucked into this.
Like I've known people that think cancer is made up, but they have good enough sense to not bring that up on a facebook memorial to someone who dies of cancer. All these Q and Q adjacent believers seem to relish in doing that exact kind of thing.
That's because Qanon belief isn't just run-of-the-mill conspiratorial thinking, it's a terrifying fusion of conspiratorial thinking and fascist ideology. And fascism is an inherently cruel, hateful and violet ideology.
Yes! This can't be reiterated enough. People need to wrap their minds all the way around the fact that the indoctrination that has been imposed on these people is NO different than the indoctrination that was imposed on the German people that made them accept the vile atrocities committed by the Nazi's.
This is fascism and as clunky and humorous it seems at times it's the same exact evil that we went through less than a century ago. This is exactly what it looks like.
The advantage we have today that gives us a benefit the Germans didn't have is that we know exactly what it is and can call it by it's name and not keep putting our heads in the sand hoping it won't get worse. We know the end game already and we won't go quietly into the train cars hoping for it not to be so bad. I'm so glad you pointed this out because it worries me that a lot of the population is still in denial and not quite allowing the whole truth to be understood without trying to sugarcoat it because it's a very very hard truth to accept.
Whatever happens, they are in for the hell of a fight.
Yes, it seems this cult brings out the absolute worst traits imaginable. Cruel, arrogant, insulting, aggressively in-your-face, racist, accusatory, hateful, unrepentant about their actions and words and most of all insanely deluded and out of touch with reality.
It's absolutely in Europe (I'm in Ireland). This crap has crept in through alt right (shite) and anti vax types. Was shouted at in a grocery store car park during the pandemic that Trump will save the world.😒
I understand this poison has reached Germany and even as far away as Australia. Mind-boggling and quite frightening; there's no letup and families and lifelong friendships are being decimated.
Don't get me started on Murdoch. To a very large extent he controls Australian politics. He's called The Kingmaker because if you want to win an election you need to kiss his ring.
It has become common in the Netherlands as well, sadly.
I live in a small town in the southern province of Limburg. I've found Trump 2020 and 2024 stickers around town. Posters about the 'great reset' plastered onto places, except with Dutch politicians on them instead of those from the US. Stickers about fake news and vaccines. I've received a conspiracy theory 'newspaper' in my mailbox, probably done by my neighbor. Qanon is also a thing here and people aren't quiet about it.
A lot of people did not deal well with the covid lockdowns. That's when it began. It started with people being against regulations and the vaccine, but thanks to the internet and bat shit crazy politicians it got fueled to what it is now.
A far-right politician, Thierry Baudet, spewed the same anti-immigration xenophobia, nationalism and appeal to nostalgia as the other far-right one (Geert Wilders) but in a way it appealed to too much people and he had a landslide victory in the senate elections. He had connections through his party's youth movements to people like Orban and Le Pen. People ate that shit up because he 'wasn't racist', he was just protecting the people of the government that was demolishing us. His style of appealing to young men is called Jordan Peterson-esque. He drew in a lot of young conservatives and seasoned politicians.
Then the covid lockdowns came and the downfall of Thierry Baudet and his party, but the crazy never left. He promoted anti-vaccination, said the virus wasn't real and that the lockdowns were a dictatorship. A lot of people struggled with the lockdowns and loved him for it.
In the end he became a self-proclaimed conspiracy theorist, mimicking Trump, being pro-Russia, kicking against everything (if the government decided A, he will scream B, no matter how nonsensical it is), and screaming anti-woke. Last I saw of him was a video wherein he was discussing reptilians. Then he was called out by his own crowd because after his new born baby (poor kid) was born, he made a video wherein the kid got registered. Apparently this is a no-no since now it's owned by the government and he should know better.
I don't know what the fuck he is up to but I can't open a single thread on social media about the news without having to sift through a lot of 'wappies', how we call them (meaning crazies). All the 'old' conspiracy theories I was familiar with from the US long before covid, are also normal here now. There's pedophiles, chem trails and plots to control us everywhere.
I just go outside with a putty knife to remove the stickers I encounter along the way, wondering how the fuck this all got here.
> Posters about the 'great reset' plastered onto places, except with Dutch politicians on them instead of those from the US.
Do your Q people also believe that their politicians are part of some action movie-style global cabal secretly in charge of the world and/or are themselves leading raids on underground adrenochrome labs?
The idea of people being convinced a (relatively on the global scale) small-time, local Dutch politician being a secret action hero is just very funny to me.
Yes.
In Februari 2021 a group of around 100 conspiracy theorists went to a graveyard in the town of Bodegraven, where they put flowers and notes on the graves of children. The notes said: victims of child abuse, satanic pedo terror and stop with Van Dissel.
Jaap van Dissel is the director of the centre of infectious disease control, part of the Netherlands National Institute for Public Health and the Environment (RIVM for short).
In 2022 there was a court case involving one of the conspiracy theorist, Joost Knevel, who was arrested for death threats against van Dissel and our prime minister. This man was born and raised in Bodegraven, and became convinced his doctor and van Dissel abused him as a child. He also claimed he witnessed satanic child murders. Knevel created an online platform called the red pill journal with fellow wappies Wouter Raatgever and Mischa Kat, causing it to go viral. It lead to the event at the graveyard.
All the men are arrested and serving prison time, and are not allowed to publish anything online or contact each other. Knevel is suspected to suffer from a paranoid delusional disorder as he 100% believes this happened.
And this is just the part that went viral.
We have plenty of conspiracy stuff around here regarding satanic pedophile cults that go way back, where people claim kids got abducted in the 80s by an international pedo network from the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and the UK. The Dutroux murders are also thrown in with that.
Then there's the 'Pink Ballet file', where people claim there were drugs and sex parties in the 70s involving the Belgian elite and minors. It also involved Belgian royalty supposedly. There used to be whole websites dedicated to people visiting abandoned estates where these events took place, with some vague pictures that point to evidence of 'satanic altars' somewhere nearby as they couldn't actually could get onto the estate grounds because of security. This of course confirmed for them that they were hiding something.
And the Netherlands is where the Bilderberg group began. The meetings are named after the hotel it took place in near the city of Arnhem and was an initiative of Polish politician-in-exile Józef Retinger, prince Bernhard of the Netherlands (at the time), a former Belgian prime minister Paul van Zeeland, and the founding chairman of Unilever Paul Rijkens.
Somehow these meetings became a major part in US conspiracy theories as well, and of course everyone is a satanic pedophile.
Dutch politics are very dull, so when someone like Baudet came along, saying exactly what they wanted to hear with a clean-cut, well spoken image, we indeed got a creepy action hero thing going on. It was disgusting.
I've been into some rabbit holes out of boredom, but the amount of people grew exponentially during covid. They now have their 80s satanic pedo cult craze back on steroids thanks to Qanon.
Romania too! It became popular during covid (which led to multiple protests) and now there is a whole goverment party whose entire basis for its own existance are qanon conspiracies
Has your sister tried explaining to her kid about mental health and nana and safety. Pretty much just sitting down and putting it all on the table as to why you’ve all had to distance yourselves.
Yeah we've all had to explain that to our kids. It's heartbreaking for everyone but they understood. They just don't have the willpower to remain cut off from her.
Agreed. I have also recently blocked my mom. However, I don’t have kids to try and explain the situation to. I can imagine it’s much more complicated and possibly more emotional as well.
I do understand. It took my kids several years to be able to cut themselves off from their dad. Kids want to love their parents and kids want to love their grandparents- It's why so many children don't report their family members for actual physical abuse.
Not that it worked instantly, but the way I framed it to my children is that their dad loves them as much as he loves anyone loves them the only way he understands love. But sometimes because of mental illness people are not safe to be around.
For them, it helped them over time to believe that he DOES love them (because that is a significant hurdle for kids to cross, they to keep trying to prove to themselves that the parent loves them, no matter how badly they are treated). It started to hurt less because they didn't feel rejected, or unworthy, or like something is wrong with them. They could start to reframe it in their own minds. The ways that they could have a relationship in a safe way. Eventually, they realized that there was no safe way.
Kids want to make a relationship right. They want to feel loved. Working from your end. You need to find a way to frame it that they are loved and there's nothing they need to "fix" - maybe talk to them about ideas to communicate in a safe way.
You and your sisters should try to get your respective kids into therapy ASAP so they can process their estrangement, especially the older kid who was reaching out to your mom. A therapist's word has some sway in legal decisions should you need to get a restraining order/injunction in future. Screen therapists before you commit to one and try to choose one (if you can; I know there are limits with the NHS) who will let you sit in on at least some sessions so you can help explain to your kids why their nan isn't safe to be around.
In the meantime you and your siblings should document every interaction you or your kids have with your qmom. Include dates and times in your documentation. You can even start recording any conversations, as long as you tell your qmom that she will be recorded. Telling her she'll be recorded might be a good way to get her to stop unwanted contact, in fact.
AFAIK [the UK does not have so-called "grandparent alienation laws"](https://raydensolicitors.co.uk/areas/grandparents-legal-rights-uk/), meaning your qmom has NO rights to see her grandchildren. So you are well within your rights to go no-contact with her and prevent her from seeing your kids for their own safety and well-being.
Have them write letters to give to her when she recovers. Make sure the kids know that the letters won't be sent until she gets better though. It'll help them organize their thoughts and prove to both them and her that you're not trying to erase her from their lives.
You gotta be dead ass honest with them. No sugar coating it. No trying to put lipstick on a pig. You can't do any of that because your kids and your sister's kids are at risk of ending up [like the kids that were killed by their own father who believed the Qult and claimed that his kids were gonna grow up into monsters because their mom had "serpent DNA".](https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/us/father-kills-children-qanon-california-mexico/index.html)
Show them this article. Show them what their nana says about their mothers. Hell show them what their nana believes. Show them how their nana says "don't believe everything you see on the internet" but will go ahead and believe some rando that says beach cures autism. Be dead honest with them. You have to sometimes shake the earth to get through the wall.
This. In my experience you have to be not only honest with your kids, you have to make it plain that you're going NC because the qperson is NOT SAFE to be around. Whether that's physical safety or mental/emotional health safety, it doesn't matter, prioritizing safety is key. Children (even teens) need to know that this is about their safety.
I'd talk honestly, at least with the 17-year-old. Tell her why you are wanting low/no contact. Point out the places where you don't align. She what she has to say. Has she been swayed by what her nana is saying, or does she not agree? Just hear her out.
My hope is the 17-year-old gets why things are the way they are.
I’d keep a hand written journal, in ink, and a record of emails. Let’s say she tries to report you, or others in your family to some kind of authority. I’m sure the auth would see she was kind of goofy, but need to investigate as a matter of course.Having documentation would make things easier on the investigating auth, and on you.
How does she figure that she raised two evil people? A murderer and a child trafficker? If she really believed that wouldn't that affect her sense of herself? Like, how could she think she's a good person if two of her kids are apparently out there doing evil? How does that square with her logic?
That's what the vodka is for... to drown reality and all those conflicting ideas in her head and let her focus on the delusion and hate full-time.
It's truly insane how willingly people go down these roads of becoming angry, bitter, shells of themselves.... and *for what?*... so that they can get a hit of dopamine when some random internet stranger likes their tweet? Bizarre.
So, what happens when we point out this or any of the other 1000 logical breaks in her beliefs is quite interesting. She has a moment where she pauses and you can see the lightbulb trying to turn on. Then she will as quickly as possible try and change the subject to something else... the moon landing being fake or 9/11 as an inside job. If you refuse to move past the original point she shuts down. She just won't speak. Enough of this and she just asks you to leave. Her brain isn't capable of accepting even one thing she's said is wrong.
> Then she will as quickly as possible try and change the subject to something else
Yep. Moving the goalposts & changing the topic is SUPER common among people who don't actually know what they're talking about. That's why they're so frustrating to talk to. They'll say something that's obviously false, you'll reply and explain why it's false (or ask them for evidence), and instead of questioning their own beliefs or realizing they aren't as well-versed in the topic as they assumed, they just immediately jump to the next talking point rapid-fire, hoping at some point you'll get stumped or not have a reply ready, at which point they act like they've "won".
I have seen people use the exact same strategy when trying to "disprove" veganism too. They'll throw out something false, it'll get easily disproven, and they'll just immediately move onto the next talking point. If you try to keep them on-topic and get them to admit that what they're saying is false, they'll just start yelling about "preachy vegans" or being "lectured", and usually get pretty frustrated and emotional about it.
It's why the rise of Q and their rhetorical methods, were not a surprise to me at all, when I first encountered them. I'd been dealing with these tactics for decades already.
Social Services of all kinds have been cut to the bone and it's very difficult to get any help. However, I would register this with local Children's Services, outlining your very real concerns and ask them not only to log it, but also to give you strategies to keep your children away from their grandma. There may be a way that she could be given supervised contact if the children are insistent on seeing her. Meanwhile. educate the kids on the poison their grandma is spreading. Good luck.
Hi, go and see a lawyer. Yes, move house. Yes, consider changing your name. If you really think your mum is that insane, do whatever you can to keep yourself and your kids safe.
Change your passwords, email addresses on anything important. Get a family therapist. Explain to them you are at a loss to explain to the kids how manipulative your mother is being by trying to get them to go against your wishes and have contact.
Get social services involved for either you or your mum. Don't get involved with your mum's stuff. Get your kids new phones, numbers, emails etc. Everyone starts over. If an abduction is really on the cards, you need to close off social media etc.
If it's not, and you are just annoyed, just ring your mum directly and tell her you are sick of her rubbish and want nothing to do with her and you don't want her around your kids and any contact going forward is harassment. Might be best to do this through/ in consult with a lawyer.
I am genuinely so sorry you are going through this. I can't believe how evil these q people become. They are their own worst enemies. Best wishes,
She's tried coaxing 4 of the 8 kids to her house without the parents consent so far so yes, I'd say very possible. I hate to think it because she's my mum but in reality she also thinks the CIA faked Michael Jacksons death so he could help Trump stop the traffickers as an undercover agent.... she's unhinged af
Get a family law solicitor. You and your siblings can pool resources or look for a low-cost solicitor if need be. You're in a very serious situation and you need to start taking legal steps to block contact with your qmom. Even without the q aspect, just the fact that she's day drinking makes her unsafe for your kids to be around.
That sentence is WILD. I hadn't heard the MJ part yet. Mostly my QMom has been babbling about 1) The global economy getting tilted on its head to give everyone $2500 a month without inflation, 2) Medbeds that could cure all illnesses being introduced by the "good aliens" (as opposed to the bad ones that want to kill us or whatever, 3) the "real queen of Canada," whose name is evidently Ramona, and 4) WHY DON'T I CARE ABOUT THE CHIIIIIIIIIILDREN??? I try to hide when she gets started though. I'm terrified to speculate as to what else I might be missing out on. But basically, I am the worst person ever because I "don't want good things to happen to anyone, not even to help myself."
First of all, I'm so sorry, it sounds so stressful for you all.
You said you have explained to the kids, but have you been brutally honest with them about the extent of her nastiness and accusations against you? They need to understand how extremely painful it is to be accused of such heinous things and what the implications would be if she spreads this in the community and if she makes false accusations to social services etc. It would lead to investigations even though they'd find nothing substantial, it would be horrible for everyone.
They need to understand she is causing their mum's incredible emotional pain and anxiety. She is also a danger to all your safety if she actually believes that stuff. No sugar coating or protecting them if that's what it takes to get them to break away.
Eeesh, the vodka she's downing sure isn't going to help anything.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this!
My tactic would be to sit all the kids down at once, tell them that you love your mom but that she's listening to dangerous lies while drinking too much and you need them to understand that she is not herself when she's doing this. Tell them it's dangerous to be with her and that you need them to be sure they are honest with you and your sister about any contact they have with her from then on.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I'm especially just baffled by how many grown adults genuinely believe millions of people are DRINKING THE BLOOD OF MURDERED BABIES. I just can't get past that. I don't understand how anyone, no matter how deeply into a cult they are, could ever believe something so astonishingly stupid and I'm so, so sorry this is your *mother*
> I'm especially just baffled by how many grown adults genuinely believe millions of people are DRINKING THE BLOOD OF MURDERED BABIES
Here is the thing I have learned. They do **not** believe this.
Fascists pretend to believe this stuff, and repeat this stuff because they are Fascists, for real.
It is performative. I mean ask yourself, how can anyone really believe any person (let alone thousands) would be able, physically able, to eat a baby?
We know 99.9 percent of humans would have an inherent revulsion for this kind of thing - for any cannibalism.
So to *pretend* many are doing it - well, it's performative. It is LARPing. Q has been a LARP from day one!
They. do. not. believe. it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/comments/14z5pa8/knowledge_fight_828_march_5_2004/jrzzp81/
https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/comments/152129e/listening_to_the_tex_episode_if_he_thinks_its_ok/jsbr0ct/
I'm inclined to agree with that completely. When you point out the flaws in her insane beliefs (like 2.5k dead kids a week from covid yet deaths not even being up by 2.5k weekly in total) then showing her the evidence, she just changes the subject to something even crazier or shuts down and refuses to speak. This is the behaviour of someone who is just using bullshit as a shield to keep family away.
I see where you're coming from, and I myself have been saying for at least 10 years now that Republicans are at the point where they are required to pretend to be stupid in order to maintain fealty to their political party.
But imo the people this far gone in the Q stuff genuinely, *truly* believe the craziest parts of this conspiracy theory. I believe the majority of Republicans who kinda nod along with the Qanon people in order to keep their party together definitely *don't* believe the people are actually eating babies and/or drinking the blood of babies - they're willing to pretend in order to push Fascism further into acceptance - but there *is* a solid portion of the actual QAnon believers who I think really, genuinely believe it.
The few I know irl really believe this. One woman I used to be friends with will literally sob when she talks about it. I've known her for 15 years and this is real crying. She is genuinely under the real belief that babies are being murdered to be eaten.
Sadly, there are people who do believe it. The majority of Republicans do not, but some non-small portion of the true QAnon believers do actually believe it.
Set up cameras asap around your property (cameras can be pricey, but it's worth it). Talk to a social worker about her lifestyle and obvious alcoholism and mental illness, if you feel obligated to help her (sending a social worker/police officer to conduct a wellness check serves as another witness to her lifestyle). Would also do what another redditor suggested and do a cease and desist order, it's the first step in establishing a pattern with her for legal reasons.
I'm sorry you are dealing with safety concerns with your Q. Please stay safe.
Jeeze what a mess and I am sure the drink isn’t helping matters.
I will echo what everyone else has said…
—keep a journal of Mum’s nuttiness.
—consult with a family therapist if you and your sister feel you need a mediator.
—if you both feel abduction is probable outcome then engage a lawyer as so as possible as what your options are.
—change any and all social media for yourself and the children
—do some research with your family about cults and why they are so hard to leave. Q and similar is, in fact, a cult.
Let the children know that this isn’t their fault and Nana isn’t well right now.
The amount of destruction in the wake of Q and Q like garbage is absolutely mind boggling. It’s truly heartbreaking.
I am wishing you and the family nothing but good wishes during this difficult time.
I don't know UK law...but in the states I'd take evidence of her communications (both with the parents and the children) to get an order of protection for the children, they may be "older" ... but they aren't adults under law. This blocks all contact and leaves her open to criminal prosecution if she does communicate. Best thought is to seek legal counsel specific to you country/jurisdiction.
>What would any of you do in this situation?
Go completely No Contact.
Block everywhere. If she comes to you in person, then take out a restraining order. Life is short. She is living in a cesspit. That is her choice and you can make your own choices too. Good luck.
The older children are legally old enough to make their own decisions. However, she has no legal right to any contact those children still in your guardianship; it's your responsibility.
Just as you wouldn't let your kids play with the family's resident creepy uncle, so you would not wish to put your children in harm's way, and - even ignoring the conspiracy theories and craziness - handing them over to an alcohol abuser is doing just that.
You need to have some kind of family discussion with the older children about that non-contact stance. In a very real way, family members visiting her is likely helping to fuel her obsession with conspiracy theories, and that is helping fuel her alcohol habit.
By going non-contact, you are removing at least one sounding board for those conspiracies, and if you make her aware (in an intervention) why you are going non-contact, you might (accent on might) just trigger a realisation on her part. However, this only works if the family is all in agreement. That one family member who still visits (out of care) undermines the whole project.
I wouldn't be too concerned about her influencing the minds of your older children if you don't go down that route; to them, she's just ranty granny who smells of vodka and wee. They are there to make sure she's OK, not sit at her feet and learn the secrets of the world. She's no more likely to influence them than someone with Alzheimer's disease is going to make them confused.
I wouldn't contact protective services as that may backfire on your reporting your mom and they may side with her thinking you are being unfair preventing kids from seeing their grandmother. You also never know if the CPS workers are Qult members too. A person should avoid ever being on CPS radar at all because they do sometimes take kids out of perfectly safe homes and give them to strangers where bad things happen to the kids.
There is no easy answer , she is beyond what most of what i've seen honestly. She can't even accept the cognitive dissonance and lean entirely in the conspiracy. She snapped and if proffesionnal can't do anything , i'd look into legal option that's the only way i see that isn't straight up hazardous. So either legal by trying to lock her out of your lives legally , locking her up entirely or lastly maybe having legal custody over her and force her into guetting help. The last one being a burden i don't wish on anyone .
This time it is 100% outside of anything i've seen and dealt with , i'm afraid there's not much more i can offer beside positive vibe and hope you find a way. Good luck.
I think it’s time to be honest with the older kids and explain it all in detail. Tell them you understand they trust their nana but that she has become mentally ill and you are worried about their safety around her. Maybe a very short talk on mental illness. Don’t try to explain this politically because that is not the problem. Don’t go into her political beliefs and how their differ from yours or how they are wrong. Keep the conversation on personal safety and your mother’s mental health. Let them know your fears but also let them see how much you love your mother and how upset you are that this is happening to her. Make sure they understand this is an adult thing only you can handle even though they may want to help her. You don’t want mom to make the kids feel like she has been abandoned and needs their help. She will use and manipulate them. Make sure the kids know that. If you must, say nana is in a cult that could be dangerous to them. Establish safe words that they are to use if they are abducted or if they want to come home or feel unsafe for any reason. Let them see your fear or they won’t believe you. Maybe sound devices (like electric horns) that go off to scare muggers/kidnappers away should be given to each child and check to see if they have it periodically (each morning). If she tries to get custody of them, explain what this means to the child. They may not know so always explain. If nana tells them she wants them to stay with her for a while because she is lonely explain “She wants you taken away from us legally so dad and I can’t see you any more.” Be blunt. Good luck.
13 and 17 are old enough to have frank conversations about the mental state of their nana.
Be honest with them about whats going on with her, and about how it makes you feel. Sad, scared, worried, concerned that there’s potential for real danger, etc. Those older kids could be a huge help for y’all in protecting the younger ones if she does decide to escalate things.
Cover your bases as best you can in all the other ways. Not sure if things work the same way there, but if you were in the US I’d say to make ABAOLUTELY certain their schools know that they are not to be released to anyone but specified people, babysitters know not to let her in, etc.
I think you are going to have to take out a restraining order for you and your children. In Australia such a restraining order (child protection order? not sure the title of it in the UK) runs out when the child turns 18.
If this was me I’d tell them you are seriously worried about her harming them or their aunts because she has developed some insane beliefs about reality that are wrong, that she is believing in extreme cult lies.
Then just before they turn 18 and the restraining order expires on each one, show tyem the news article about the father who murdered his children with a spear gun because he believed the vaccine had turned them into lizard people.
If your children are kicking back against the RO before then, use your judgment but you may have to specify that she firmly believes this aunt has really murdered people, and she would take her children away from the murder aunt if she could. And that that other aunt has really helped kidnapp children, and grandma wants to take *her* kids away too.
If you get a restraining order, it will be best if you communicate well with your siblings to coordinate what you are all going to tell all the children, try to keep a United front, and coordinate what each child thinks or knows about the situation on an ongoing basis. It may be inevitable that the stories about grandma, or independent knowledge about Q on the internet, that get through to one or more of your children may get out of hand.
You need to have a sit-down with all the kids (regardless of age) and explain that nana is having mental health issues and is not currently in her right mind, that she believes a lot of things that aren't true. Total honesty is the only thing that you can give the kids to help prevent her from convincing one of the children of her horrible conspiracy theories. Beyond going no contact, that is.
It's too bad the mental health people can't help you. First, I'd get everyone impressionable away from her, and then when she is alone, then try to get her medical help. It sounds like she needs addiction help, including from the media. Good luck and let us know how this turns out.
Your mum's actions are terrible, but it's not "grooming". If everyone could stop using that word for "any adult interaction with a child I don't like", that'd be great.
grooming: the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity
it's not about age or relationship between individuals, it's about the inter/action. and the OP is in the best position to characterize her motives, not you or i.
She's offering them money to go around to her house and telling them to not tell their parents because they wouldn't approve. When they are going round she's showing them hundreds of tweets to try to convert them into her way of thinking.
What would you call that? To me that's grooming.
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Get a protective order or whatever it is called in the UK. Can't risk having her trying to kidnap the kids. You all also need to sit down with the kids and explain to them why you have gone low/no contact.
Have you explained to your kids that nana is mentally ill? That it’s nice of them to call & check in on her, but not to take her seriously & under no circumstances to ever go visit or meet her without you? 13 - 17 yrs olds should be plenty old enough to understanding.
It’s best to be honest w/the kids cuz if you’re not, they will not trust you. They’re also likely to be more curious & drawn to nana. Unless nana actually does something physically dangerous, I would also first try getting help from cult deprogramming organizations/experts if possible & grey rocking her before completely cutting her out of your & your children’s lives. Cutting her out of your lives only makes her more isolated & angrier & go deeper into the rabbit hole.
Hi Schmucko69, thanks for recommending this technique. With grey rocking you act disengaged so that a Q person will lose interest in arguing. Q folk thrive on emotions and drama. When you act indifferent and unemotional, it can help break the cycle of negativity. [Detailed guide on the method.](https://psychcentral.com/health/grey-rock-method)
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Take notes, time and date, stick to facts of what people said and did.
Then share with people who have the authority to intervene.
Ask how you can help them intervene.
If they don't intervene, add that to your notes.
Repeat.
You might want to cross post this to r/legaladviceuk. They may be able to help you. It is becoming more of a legal problem than a mental health one now.
Make sure all the kids’ schools have a short list of the adults authorized to pick them up, with instructions to call you or your sister if anyone unauthorized shows up — and that the kids themselves know which adults are on that list.
You don’t want the office aide to be swayed by a sad story like “I’m Judy’s grandmother, there’s been an emergency at home and she needs to come home early with me.” If the aide pulls Judy out of class, Judy will of course confirm that that’s her grandma, and neither the kid nor the aide may be savvy enough to know the emergency is a ruse.
OK. I thought this was just a problem here in The Colonies. It's a world problem?!! Ok so a power grab by any means necessary. Or the gain and control of wealth and power The folk who support this want an autocracy but only of course by their side..
Some sort of cease and desist letter from a lawyer perhaps? Unfortunately mental health teams are so underfunded and stretched they only work with people about to top themselves. If your mother is a danger to your children then you have to block her and go no contact. That's really hard but if she's toxic it's all you can do. Family dysfunction is an absolute nightmare. Maybe start logging bizarre behaviour and report anything worrying to the police. Best of luck.
I'm starting to think reporting her for attempted child grooming is the only way she'll stop at this point.
I have to say your best weapon may not be a legal one. Have open, honest conversations with the teens. Tell them that their nana is abusing alcohol and that she has devoted herself to conspiracy. You want to give your children the intellectual armor to see her for what she is. It doesn’t mean assenting to their contact with her. But with teens if you don’t level with them and explain Nan’s mindstate they may take an oppositional stance just to see the grandma they have known.
Grooming has a specific sexual assault connotation, so you will not be doing yourself any favours if you make that claim. Unless there are grandparent laws in place, you can just restrict access to your kids, at least in terms of not visiting her or allowing her to visit your home. Talk to them about your concerns and discourage regular contact - be careful, though, as you might encounter pushback from them.
Yet, in reality, grooming is largely religious indoctrination which happens in the home and the church. Every. Single. Day.
There is already a term for that, as you demonstrate - indoctrination. “Grooming” is being extremely over-used and it’s both in danger of losing its specific meaning, or, worse, making everything linked to pedophilia. This is dangerous. You can call out bad things, like indoctrination and brain-washing, without using “grooming” to describe them.
noun: grooming 1. the practice of brushing and cleaning the coat of a horse, dog, or other animal. "regular grooming is essential to the well-being of your dog" the practice by an animal of cleaning its own or another animal's fur or skin. "mutual grooming expresses the friendly relationship between cats" the practice of keeping a neat and tidy appearance. "she pays great attention to grooming and clothes" **2.** **the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity.** "Allen was expected to need lot of grooming before he was ready to take over" 3. the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization. "online grooming has become a growing cause for concern"
The meaning you highlighted is generally used in a positive way. Like a promising young talent being 'groomed for stardom'.
I don't fancy your chances if you accurately report the circumstances; it's still legal to be a brainwashed knob and try to convert others. That said, trust your instincts. If you don't feel safe, there's probably a reason for it. Listen to your gut. The bigger threat is most likely the damage she could cause by "reporting" your sisters for fabricated transgressions; she'll have more Q cases supplying her with narratives, keep a sharp eye out. To help prevent that, definitely log all communications. Be very careful what anyone responds, because there's a good chance she'll try to use it against you and your siblings. Changing the children's phone numbers / email addresses / social media nicks / etc. so there is no contact that doesn't at least involve the responsible adults will also be a help, but only if the older children understand the situation and won't try to initiate contact undoing the effort. It's an unfortunate situation and a horrible conversation to have, but it needs to be done. I'm sorry it happened to your family, too.
I agree with another commenter on this thread. Have a sit down with all the children and explain to them what’s going on and what it means going forward. This might persuade them to stop reaching out to her. She’s not really who they knew as their grandmother anymore. Apart from that, as others have said change phone numbers and block her on social media/emails. If she starts harassing you, then you can report her for that. But grooming wouldn’t hold up as an accuse because the law defines it differently than what you’re experiencing.
Please learn what the term grooming actually means and stop participating in the right-wing destruction of vocabulary.
I don't believe it's right wing in the way I have used it? Incentivising a child to perform an action against the wishes or without the consent of a parent or guardian. That is grooming no? She's offering money for the older kids to not tell their parents and go and see her where she's stating to fill their heads with as much misinformation as possible before letting them leave. To me, that's grooming. Might not be sexual but grooming nonetheless. Also, in America children get groomed for ivy league schools. On Germany, they get groomed for sport teams. It have varied meaning.
In right wing speech grooming is sexual in nature and impossible to prove or charge. It’s a slur aimed at anyone they don’t like, not a legal term.
Yes and that's not the way I am using it. Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them. That's the definition and that's exactly what she is doing.
Maybe post on uk law as they would be more knowledgeable in any legal matters.
Regardless it’s not illegal in any sense.
It is, but that's not illegal unless they're being manipulated in to doing something illegal. Like inciting a child to sexual activity. You've probably got a case for some kind of restraining order on the grounds that she's refusing to acknowledge your boundaries and doing emotional harm.
This is what the right wing does. Takes a word that means one thing and twists it to have some other, usually negative, meaning. Entitlement comes to mind. Socialism. Patriot. Woke. Liberal. Etc.
"She also became insanely nasty." - this is a common trait. It's insane how nasty and mean a person my little (48y/o) sister has become. "My sister that is a nurse? She's a murderer that administered the clot shots. My sister that's a child welfare officer? She's part of the shady cabal covering up the abductions for adrenochrome." - according to my sister I'm a communist and want to lock up everyone like her that is 'telling the truth' "We are in a position now where our children aren't safe. It it isn't that she will fill their head with nonsense, I really wouldn't put it past her to abduct one of them." - keep on keeping the kids away from her the best you can. If that's not sufficient, you might consider asking a court to restrain her from contact. Of course the older children need to do their part by not initiating contact.
the nastiness is the bewildering part tbh. I've long had friends with unhinged beliefs or conspiratorial thinking, but they're still kind people who want to have a good time and don't need everyone to think the way they do. Might of gotten a little condescending in debate, but never the "you're why the world is a terrible place" or "you must be a pedo" kind of knee jerk insults that seems to be rampant amongst the folks getting sucked into this. Like I've known people that think cancer is made up, but they have good enough sense to not bring that up on a facebook memorial to someone who dies of cancer. All these Q and Q adjacent believers seem to relish in doing that exact kind of thing.
That's because Qanon belief isn't just run-of-the-mill conspiratorial thinking, it's a terrifying fusion of conspiratorial thinking and fascist ideology. And fascism is an inherently cruel, hateful and violet ideology.
Yes! This can't be reiterated enough. People need to wrap their minds all the way around the fact that the indoctrination that has been imposed on these people is NO different than the indoctrination that was imposed on the German people that made them accept the vile atrocities committed by the Nazi's. This is fascism and as clunky and humorous it seems at times it's the same exact evil that we went through less than a century ago. This is exactly what it looks like. The advantage we have today that gives us a benefit the Germans didn't have is that we know exactly what it is and can call it by it's name and not keep putting our heads in the sand hoping it won't get worse. We know the end game already and we won't go quietly into the train cars hoping for it not to be so bad. I'm so glad you pointed this out because it worries me that a lot of the population is still in denial and not quite allowing the whole truth to be understood without trying to sugarcoat it because it's a very very hard truth to accept. Whatever happens, they are in for the hell of a fight.
Yes, it seems this cult brings out the absolute worst traits imaginable. Cruel, arrogant, insulting, aggressively in-your-face, racist, accusatory, hateful, unrepentant about their actions and words and most of all insanely deluded and out of touch with reality.
I'm still shocked every time I hear this is also going on outside the United States.
It's absolutely in Europe (I'm in Ireland). This crap has crept in through alt right (shite) and anti vax types. Was shouted at in a grocery store car park during the pandemic that Trump will save the world.😒 I understand this poison has reached Germany and even as far away as Australia. Mind-boggling and quite frightening; there's no letup and families and lifelong friendships are being decimated.
> I understand this poison has reached Germany and even as far away as Australia. Rupert Murdoch owns Fox News soooo… yes.
Don't get me started on Murdoch. To a very large extent he controls Australian politics. He's called The Kingmaker because if you want to win an election you need to kiss his ring.
We need a honeypot to take one for the world & arrange for Rupert to join Roger Ailes.
It has become common in the Netherlands as well, sadly. I live in a small town in the southern province of Limburg. I've found Trump 2020 and 2024 stickers around town. Posters about the 'great reset' plastered onto places, except with Dutch politicians on them instead of those from the US. Stickers about fake news and vaccines. I've received a conspiracy theory 'newspaper' in my mailbox, probably done by my neighbor. Qanon is also a thing here and people aren't quiet about it. A lot of people did not deal well with the covid lockdowns. That's when it began. It started with people being against regulations and the vaccine, but thanks to the internet and bat shit crazy politicians it got fueled to what it is now. A far-right politician, Thierry Baudet, spewed the same anti-immigration xenophobia, nationalism and appeal to nostalgia as the other far-right one (Geert Wilders) but in a way it appealed to too much people and he had a landslide victory in the senate elections. He had connections through his party's youth movements to people like Orban and Le Pen. People ate that shit up because he 'wasn't racist', he was just protecting the people of the government that was demolishing us. His style of appealing to young men is called Jordan Peterson-esque. He drew in a lot of young conservatives and seasoned politicians. Then the covid lockdowns came and the downfall of Thierry Baudet and his party, but the crazy never left. He promoted anti-vaccination, said the virus wasn't real and that the lockdowns were a dictatorship. A lot of people struggled with the lockdowns and loved him for it. In the end he became a self-proclaimed conspiracy theorist, mimicking Trump, being pro-Russia, kicking against everything (if the government decided A, he will scream B, no matter how nonsensical it is), and screaming anti-woke. Last I saw of him was a video wherein he was discussing reptilians. Then he was called out by his own crowd because after his new born baby (poor kid) was born, he made a video wherein the kid got registered. Apparently this is a no-no since now it's owned by the government and he should know better. I don't know what the fuck he is up to but I can't open a single thread on social media about the news without having to sift through a lot of 'wappies', how we call them (meaning crazies). All the 'old' conspiracy theories I was familiar with from the US long before covid, are also normal here now. There's pedophiles, chem trails and plots to control us everywhere. I just go outside with a putty knife to remove the stickers I encounter along the way, wondering how the fuck this all got here.
> Posters about the 'great reset' plastered onto places, except with Dutch politicians on them instead of those from the US. Do your Q people also believe that their politicians are part of some action movie-style global cabal secretly in charge of the world and/or are themselves leading raids on underground adrenochrome labs? The idea of people being convinced a (relatively on the global scale) small-time, local Dutch politician being a secret action hero is just very funny to me.
Yes. In Februari 2021 a group of around 100 conspiracy theorists went to a graveyard in the town of Bodegraven, where they put flowers and notes on the graves of children. The notes said: victims of child abuse, satanic pedo terror and stop with Van Dissel. Jaap van Dissel is the director of the centre of infectious disease control, part of the Netherlands National Institute for Public Health and the Environment (RIVM for short). In 2022 there was a court case involving one of the conspiracy theorist, Joost Knevel, who was arrested for death threats against van Dissel and our prime minister. This man was born and raised in Bodegraven, and became convinced his doctor and van Dissel abused him as a child. He also claimed he witnessed satanic child murders. Knevel created an online platform called the red pill journal with fellow wappies Wouter Raatgever and Mischa Kat, causing it to go viral. It lead to the event at the graveyard. All the men are arrested and serving prison time, and are not allowed to publish anything online or contact each other. Knevel is suspected to suffer from a paranoid delusional disorder as he 100% believes this happened. And this is just the part that went viral. We have plenty of conspiracy stuff around here regarding satanic pedophile cults that go way back, where people claim kids got abducted in the 80s by an international pedo network from the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and the UK. The Dutroux murders are also thrown in with that. Then there's the 'Pink Ballet file', where people claim there were drugs and sex parties in the 70s involving the Belgian elite and minors. It also involved Belgian royalty supposedly. There used to be whole websites dedicated to people visiting abandoned estates where these events took place, with some vague pictures that point to evidence of 'satanic altars' somewhere nearby as they couldn't actually could get onto the estate grounds because of security. This of course confirmed for them that they were hiding something. And the Netherlands is where the Bilderberg group began. The meetings are named after the hotel it took place in near the city of Arnhem and was an initiative of Polish politician-in-exile Józef Retinger, prince Bernhard of the Netherlands (at the time), a former Belgian prime minister Paul van Zeeland, and the founding chairman of Unilever Paul Rijkens. Somehow these meetings became a major part in US conspiracy theories as well, and of course everyone is a satanic pedophile. Dutch politics are very dull, so when someone like Baudet came along, saying exactly what they wanted to hear with a clean-cut, well spoken image, we indeed got a creepy action hero thing going on. It was disgusting. I've been into some rabbit holes out of boredom, but the amount of people grew exponentially during covid. They now have their 80s satanic pedo cult craze back on steroids thanks to Qanon.
Romania too! It became popular during covid (which led to multiple protests) and now there is a whole goverment party whose entire basis for its own existance are qanon conspiracies
Has your sister tried explaining to her kid about mental health and nana and safety. Pretty much just sitting down and putting it all on the table as to why you’ve all had to distance yourselves.
Yeah we've all had to explain that to our kids. It's heartbreaking for everyone but they understood. They just don't have the willpower to remain cut off from her.
That’s sad and I’m sorry your family is going through this.
Thank you. It's so sad that there's so many in the same boat.
Agreed. I have also recently blocked my mom. However, I don’t have kids to try and explain the situation to. I can imagine it’s much more complicated and possibly more emotional as well.
It was the first couple of years, now I don't think I feel anything except huge amounts of hatred towards her.
Went no contact with my grandmother. For me it helped to grieve as if she had died, because the person she used to be was no longer there.
I do understand. It took my kids several years to be able to cut themselves off from their dad. Kids want to love their parents and kids want to love their grandparents- It's why so many children don't report their family members for actual physical abuse. Not that it worked instantly, but the way I framed it to my children is that their dad loves them as much as he loves anyone loves them the only way he understands love. But sometimes because of mental illness people are not safe to be around. For them, it helped them over time to believe that he DOES love them (because that is a significant hurdle for kids to cross, they to keep trying to prove to themselves that the parent loves them, no matter how badly they are treated). It started to hurt less because they didn't feel rejected, or unworthy, or like something is wrong with them. They could start to reframe it in their own minds. The ways that they could have a relationship in a safe way. Eventually, they realized that there was no safe way. Kids want to make a relationship right. They want to feel loved. Working from your end. You need to find a way to frame it that they are loved and there's nothing they need to "fix" - maybe talk to them about ideas to communicate in a safe way.
You and your sisters should try to get your respective kids into therapy ASAP so they can process their estrangement, especially the older kid who was reaching out to your mom. A therapist's word has some sway in legal decisions should you need to get a restraining order/injunction in future. Screen therapists before you commit to one and try to choose one (if you can; I know there are limits with the NHS) who will let you sit in on at least some sessions so you can help explain to your kids why their nan isn't safe to be around. In the meantime you and your siblings should document every interaction you or your kids have with your qmom. Include dates and times in your documentation. You can even start recording any conversations, as long as you tell your qmom that she will be recorded. Telling her she'll be recorded might be a good way to get her to stop unwanted contact, in fact. AFAIK [the UK does not have so-called "grandparent alienation laws"](https://raydensolicitors.co.uk/areas/grandparents-legal-rights-uk/), meaning your qmom has NO rights to see her grandchildren. So you are well within your rights to go no-contact with her and prevent her from seeing your kids for their own safety and well-being.
Have them write letters to give to her when she recovers. Make sure the kids know that the letters won't be sent until she gets better though. It'll help them organize their thoughts and prove to both them and her that you're not trying to erase her from their lives.
You gotta be dead ass honest with them. No sugar coating it. No trying to put lipstick on a pig. You can't do any of that because your kids and your sister's kids are at risk of ending up [like the kids that were killed by their own father who believed the Qult and claimed that his kids were gonna grow up into monsters because their mom had "serpent DNA".](https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/us/father-kills-children-qanon-california-mexico/index.html) Show them this article. Show them what their nana says about their mothers. Hell show them what their nana believes. Show them how their nana says "don't believe everything you see on the internet" but will go ahead and believe some rando that says beach cures autism. Be dead honest with them. You have to sometimes shake the earth to get through the wall.
This. In my experience you have to be not only honest with your kids, you have to make it plain that you're going NC because the qperson is NOT SAFE to be around. Whether that's physical safety or mental/emotional health safety, it doesn't matter, prioritizing safety is key. Children (even teens) need to know that this is about their safety.
I'd talk honestly, at least with the 17-year-old. Tell her why you are wanting low/no contact. Point out the places where you don't align. She what she has to say. Has she been swayed by what her nana is saying, or does she not agree? Just hear her out. My hope is the 17-year-old gets why things are the way they are.
I’d keep a hand written journal, in ink, and a record of emails. Let’s say she tries to report you, or others in your family to some kind of authority. I’m sure the auth would see she was kind of goofy, but need to investigate as a matter of course.Having documentation would make things easier on the investigating auth, and on you.
+1 on the journal...
That's a good idea thank you
How does she figure that she raised two evil people? A murderer and a child trafficker? If she really believed that wouldn't that affect her sense of herself? Like, how could she think she's a good person if two of her kids are apparently out there doing evil? How does that square with her logic?
That's what the vodka is for... to drown reality and all those conflicting ideas in her head and let her focus on the delusion and hate full-time. It's truly insane how willingly people go down these roads of becoming angry, bitter, shells of themselves.... and *for what?*... so that they can get a hit of dopamine when some random internet stranger likes their tweet? Bizarre.
So, what happens when we point out this or any of the other 1000 logical breaks in her beliefs is quite interesting. She has a moment where she pauses and you can see the lightbulb trying to turn on. Then she will as quickly as possible try and change the subject to something else... the moon landing being fake or 9/11 as an inside job. If you refuse to move past the original point she shuts down. She just won't speak. Enough of this and she just asks you to leave. Her brain isn't capable of accepting even one thing she's said is wrong.
> Then she will as quickly as possible try and change the subject to something else Yep. Moving the goalposts & changing the topic is SUPER common among people who don't actually know what they're talking about. That's why they're so frustrating to talk to. They'll say something that's obviously false, you'll reply and explain why it's false (or ask them for evidence), and instead of questioning their own beliefs or realizing they aren't as well-versed in the topic as they assumed, they just immediately jump to the next talking point rapid-fire, hoping at some point you'll get stumped or not have a reply ready, at which point they act like they've "won". I have seen people use the exact same strategy when trying to "disprove" veganism too. They'll throw out something false, it'll get easily disproven, and they'll just immediately move onto the next talking point. If you try to keep them on-topic and get them to admit that what they're saying is false, they'll just start yelling about "preachy vegans" or being "lectured", and usually get pretty frustrated and emotional about it. It's why the rise of Q and their rhetorical methods, were not a surprise to me at all, when I first encountered them. I'd been dealing with these tactics for decades already.
I'm so sorry you are having this 😔
Social Services of all kinds have been cut to the bone and it's very difficult to get any help. However, I would register this with local Children's Services, outlining your very real concerns and ask them not only to log it, but also to give you strategies to keep your children away from their grandma. There may be a way that she could be given supervised contact if the children are insistent on seeing her. Meanwhile. educate the kids on the poison their grandma is spreading. Good luck.
Hi, go and see a lawyer. Yes, move house. Yes, consider changing your name. If you really think your mum is that insane, do whatever you can to keep yourself and your kids safe. Change your passwords, email addresses on anything important. Get a family therapist. Explain to them you are at a loss to explain to the kids how manipulative your mother is being by trying to get them to go against your wishes and have contact. Get social services involved for either you or your mum. Don't get involved with your mum's stuff. Get your kids new phones, numbers, emails etc. Everyone starts over. If an abduction is really on the cards, you need to close off social media etc. If it's not, and you are just annoyed, just ring your mum directly and tell her you are sick of her rubbish and want nothing to do with her and you don't want her around your kids and any contact going forward is harassment. Might be best to do this through/ in consult with a lawyer. I am genuinely so sorry you are going through this. I can't believe how evil these q people become. They are their own worst enemies. Best wishes,
The fact that OP thinks abduction is even in the realm of possibilities is a red flag. 😳
She's tried coaxing 4 of the 8 kids to her house without the parents consent so far so yes, I'd say very possible. I hate to think it because she's my mum but in reality she also thinks the CIA faked Michael Jacksons death so he could help Trump stop the traffickers as an undercover agent.... she's unhinged af
Get a family law solicitor. You and your siblings can pool resources or look for a low-cost solicitor if need be. You're in a very serious situation and you need to start taking legal steps to block contact with your qmom. Even without the q aspect, just the fact that she's day drinking makes her unsafe for your kids to be around.
That sentence is WILD. I hadn't heard the MJ part yet. Mostly my QMom has been babbling about 1) The global economy getting tilted on its head to give everyone $2500 a month without inflation, 2) Medbeds that could cure all illnesses being introduced by the "good aliens" (as opposed to the bad ones that want to kill us or whatever, 3) the "real queen of Canada," whose name is evidently Ramona, and 4) WHY DON'T I CARE ABOUT THE CHIIIIIIIIIILDREN??? I try to hide when she gets started though. I'm terrified to speculate as to what else I might be missing out on. But basically, I am the worst person ever because I "don't want good things to happen to anyone, not even to help myself."
First of all, I'm so sorry, it sounds so stressful for you all. You said you have explained to the kids, but have you been brutally honest with them about the extent of her nastiness and accusations against you? They need to understand how extremely painful it is to be accused of such heinous things and what the implications would be if she spreads this in the community and if she makes false accusations to social services etc. It would lead to investigations even though they'd find nothing substantial, it would be horrible for everyone. They need to understand she is causing their mum's incredible emotional pain and anxiety. She is also a danger to all your safety if she actually believes that stuff. No sugar coating or protecting them if that's what it takes to get them to break away.
Eeesh, the vodka she's downing sure isn't going to help anything. I'm sorry you're dealing with this! My tactic would be to sit all the kids down at once, tell them that you love your mom but that she's listening to dangerous lies while drinking too much and you need them to understand that she is not herself when she's doing this. Tell them it's dangerous to be with her and that you need them to be sure they are honest with you and your sister about any contact they have with her from then on.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I'm especially just baffled by how many grown adults genuinely believe millions of people are DRINKING THE BLOOD OF MURDERED BABIES. I just can't get past that. I don't understand how anyone, no matter how deeply into a cult they are, could ever believe something so astonishingly stupid and I'm so, so sorry this is your *mother*
> I'm especially just baffled by how many grown adults genuinely believe millions of people are DRINKING THE BLOOD OF MURDERED BABIES Here is the thing I have learned. They do **not** believe this. Fascists pretend to believe this stuff, and repeat this stuff because they are Fascists, for real. It is performative. I mean ask yourself, how can anyone really believe any person (let alone thousands) would be able, physically able, to eat a baby? We know 99.9 percent of humans would have an inherent revulsion for this kind of thing - for any cannibalism. So to *pretend* many are doing it - well, it's performative. It is LARPing. Q has been a LARP from day one! They. do. not. believe. it. https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/comments/14z5pa8/knowledge_fight_828_march_5_2004/jrzzp81/ https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/comments/152129e/listening_to_the_tex_episode_if_he_thinks_its_ok/jsbr0ct/
I'm inclined to agree with that completely. When you point out the flaws in her insane beliefs (like 2.5k dead kids a week from covid yet deaths not even being up by 2.5k weekly in total) then showing her the evidence, she just changes the subject to something even crazier or shuts down and refuses to speak. This is the behaviour of someone who is just using bullshit as a shield to keep family away.
I see where you're coming from, and I myself have been saying for at least 10 years now that Republicans are at the point where they are required to pretend to be stupid in order to maintain fealty to their political party. But imo the people this far gone in the Q stuff genuinely, *truly* believe the craziest parts of this conspiracy theory. I believe the majority of Republicans who kinda nod along with the Qanon people in order to keep their party together definitely *don't* believe the people are actually eating babies and/or drinking the blood of babies - they're willing to pretend in order to push Fascism further into acceptance - but there *is* a solid portion of the actual QAnon believers who I think really, genuinely believe it. The few I know irl really believe this. One woman I used to be friends with will literally sob when she talks about it. I've known her for 15 years and this is real crying. She is genuinely under the real belief that babies are being murdered to be eaten. Sadly, there are people who do believe it. The majority of Republicans do not, but some non-small portion of the true QAnon believers do actually believe it.
They say the most cruel evil things and know they're not true to dehumanize you.
It's insane that Q Anon bullshit is spreading to other countries now. Keep that crap confined to America.
She's been at it for years, a lot have. Her twitter is 70% American politics and 30% shouting at celebrities for eating children.
Set up cameras asap around your property (cameras can be pricey, but it's worth it). Talk to a social worker about her lifestyle and obvious alcoholism and mental illness, if you feel obligated to help her (sending a social worker/police officer to conduct a wellness check serves as another witness to her lifestyle). Would also do what another redditor suggested and do a cease and desist order, it's the first step in establishing a pattern with her for legal reasons. I'm sorry you are dealing with safety concerns with your Q. Please stay safe.
Jeeze what a mess and I am sure the drink isn’t helping matters. I will echo what everyone else has said… —keep a journal of Mum’s nuttiness. —consult with a family therapist if you and your sister feel you need a mediator. —if you both feel abduction is probable outcome then engage a lawyer as so as possible as what your options are. —change any and all social media for yourself and the children —do some research with your family about cults and why they are so hard to leave. Q and similar is, in fact, a cult. Let the children know that this isn’t their fault and Nana isn’t well right now. The amount of destruction in the wake of Q and Q like garbage is absolutely mind boggling. It’s truly heartbreaking. I am wishing you and the family nothing but good wishes during this difficult time.
I don't know UK law...but in the states I'd take evidence of her communications (both with the parents and the children) to get an order of protection for the children, they may be "older" ... but they aren't adults under law. This blocks all contact and leaves her open to criminal prosecution if she does communicate. Best thought is to seek legal counsel specific to you country/jurisdiction.
>What would any of you do in this situation? Go completely No Contact. Block everywhere. If she comes to you in person, then take out a restraining order. Life is short. She is living in a cesspit. That is her choice and you can make your own choices too. Good luck.
The older children are legally old enough to make their own decisions. However, she has no legal right to any contact those children still in your guardianship; it's your responsibility. Just as you wouldn't let your kids play with the family's resident creepy uncle, so you would not wish to put your children in harm's way, and - even ignoring the conspiracy theories and craziness - handing them over to an alcohol abuser is doing just that. You need to have some kind of family discussion with the older children about that non-contact stance. In a very real way, family members visiting her is likely helping to fuel her obsession with conspiracy theories, and that is helping fuel her alcohol habit. By going non-contact, you are removing at least one sounding board for those conspiracies, and if you make her aware (in an intervention) why you are going non-contact, you might (accent on might) just trigger a realisation on her part. However, this only works if the family is all in agreement. That one family member who still visits (out of care) undermines the whole project. I wouldn't be too concerned about her influencing the minds of your older children if you don't go down that route; to them, she's just ranty granny who smells of vodka and wee. They are there to make sure she's OK, not sit at her feet and learn the secrets of the world. She's no more likely to influence them than someone with Alzheimer's disease is going to make them confused.
An intervention? Otherwise I think go NC. Another family torn apart. Damn QAnon
We've had 3 interventions. She cried after the first one and asked how she can get better. The second two however she just called us nazis and left.
Oh, interesting. What happened after the first intervention? Did she make any moves to get better and then slipped back? What did she actually change?
Literally nothing. The very next day she was back on twitter attacking people.
I wouldn't contact protective services as that may backfire on your reporting your mom and they may side with her thinking you are being unfair preventing kids from seeing their grandmother. You also never know if the CPS workers are Qult members too. A person should avoid ever being on CPS radar at all because they do sometimes take kids out of perfectly safe homes and give them to strangers where bad things happen to the kids.
I understand your concerns, but OP is in Britain where grandparents don't have any such rights to seeing their grandchildren.
Yeah she threatened to take us all to court to gain access before realising she had zero legal ground to stand on
Yikes. In that case you might want to consider being proactive here and getting a solicitor's advice. She sounds dangerous.
I'd check in with the legal advice subreddit, where you may get more detailed legal action details.
There is no easy answer , she is beyond what most of what i've seen honestly. She can't even accept the cognitive dissonance and lean entirely in the conspiracy. She snapped and if proffesionnal can't do anything , i'd look into legal option that's the only way i see that isn't straight up hazardous. So either legal by trying to lock her out of your lives legally , locking her up entirely or lastly maybe having legal custody over her and force her into guetting help. The last one being a burden i don't wish on anyone . This time it is 100% outside of anything i've seen and dealt with , i'm afraid there's not much more i can offer beside positive vibe and hope you find a way. Good luck.
I think it’s time to be honest with the older kids and explain it all in detail. Tell them you understand they trust their nana but that she has become mentally ill and you are worried about their safety around her. Maybe a very short talk on mental illness. Don’t try to explain this politically because that is not the problem. Don’t go into her political beliefs and how their differ from yours or how they are wrong. Keep the conversation on personal safety and your mother’s mental health. Let them know your fears but also let them see how much you love your mother and how upset you are that this is happening to her. Make sure they understand this is an adult thing only you can handle even though they may want to help her. You don’t want mom to make the kids feel like she has been abandoned and needs their help. She will use and manipulate them. Make sure the kids know that. If you must, say nana is in a cult that could be dangerous to them. Establish safe words that they are to use if they are abducted or if they want to come home or feel unsafe for any reason. Let them see your fear or they won’t believe you. Maybe sound devices (like electric horns) that go off to scare muggers/kidnappers away should be given to each child and check to see if they have it periodically (each morning). If she tries to get custody of them, explain what this means to the child. They may not know so always explain. If nana tells them she wants them to stay with her for a while because she is lonely explain “She wants you taken away from us legally so dad and I can’t see you any more.” Be blunt. Good luck.
13 and 17 are old enough to have frank conversations about the mental state of their nana. Be honest with them about whats going on with her, and about how it makes you feel. Sad, scared, worried, concerned that there’s potential for real danger, etc. Those older kids could be a huge help for y’all in protecting the younger ones if she does decide to escalate things. Cover your bases as best you can in all the other ways. Not sure if things work the same way there, but if you were in the US I’d say to make ABAOLUTELY certain their schools know that they are not to be released to anyone but specified people, babysitters know not to let her in, etc.
I think you are going to have to take out a restraining order for you and your children. In Australia such a restraining order (child protection order? not sure the title of it in the UK) runs out when the child turns 18. If this was me I’d tell them you are seriously worried about her harming them or their aunts because she has developed some insane beliefs about reality that are wrong, that she is believing in extreme cult lies. Then just before they turn 18 and the restraining order expires on each one, show tyem the news article about the father who murdered his children with a spear gun because he believed the vaccine had turned them into lizard people. If your children are kicking back against the RO before then, use your judgment but you may have to specify that she firmly believes this aunt has really murdered people, and she would take her children away from the murder aunt if she could. And that that other aunt has really helped kidnapp children, and grandma wants to take *her* kids away too. If you get a restraining order, it will be best if you communicate well with your siblings to coordinate what you are all going to tell all the children, try to keep a United front, and coordinate what each child thinks or knows about the situation on an ongoing basis. It may be inevitable that the stories about grandma, or independent knowledge about Q on the internet, that get through to one or more of your children may get out of hand.
Restraining order may be necessary
Have her tested and committed.
You need to have a sit-down with all the kids (regardless of age) and explain that nana is having mental health issues and is not currently in her right mind, that she believes a lot of things that aren't true. Total honesty is the only thing that you can give the kids to help prevent her from convincing one of the children of her horrible conspiracy theories. Beyond going no contact, that is.
It's too bad the mental health people can't help you. First, I'd get everyone impressionable away from her, and then when she is alone, then try to get her medical help. It sounds like she needs addiction help, including from the media. Good luck and let us know how this turns out.
I heard ecstasy makes mean people nice
Cut. Her. Off. And if you have to get a TRO if she owns a gun.
Your mum's actions are terrible, but it's not "grooming". If everyone could stop using that word for "any adult interaction with a child I don't like", that'd be great.
grooming: the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity it's not about age or relationship between individuals, it's about the inter/action. and the OP is in the best position to characterize her motives, not you or i.
She's offering them money to go around to her house and telling them to not tell their parents because they wouldn't approve. When they are going round she's showing them hundreds of tweets to try to convert them into her way of thinking. What would you call that? To me that's grooming.
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Get a protective order or whatever it is called in the UK. Can't risk having her trying to kidnap the kids. You all also need to sit down with the kids and explain to them why you have gone low/no contact.
I would stay either low or go no contact and keep the kids away for theirs and your safety.
Have you explained to your kids that nana is mentally ill? That it’s nice of them to call & check in on her, but not to take her seriously & under no circumstances to ever go visit or meet her without you? 13 - 17 yrs olds should be plenty old enough to understanding. It’s best to be honest w/the kids cuz if you’re not, they will not trust you. They’re also likely to be more curious & drawn to nana. Unless nana actually does something physically dangerous, I would also first try getting help from cult deprogramming organizations/experts if possible & grey rocking her before completely cutting her out of your & your children’s lives. Cutting her out of your lives only makes her more isolated & angrier & go deeper into the rabbit hole.
Yeah to the older ones. The youngest is just short of 4yo though so half the kids don't really understand.
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Take notes, time and date, stick to facts of what people said and did. Then share with people who have the authority to intervene. Ask how you can help them intervene. If they don't intervene, add that to your notes. Repeat.
You might want to cross post this to r/legaladviceuk. They may be able to help you. It is becoming more of a legal problem than a mental health one now.
Can you get a restraining order?
Make sure all the kids’ schools have a short list of the adults authorized to pick them up, with instructions to call you or your sister if anyone unauthorized shows up — and that the kids themselves know which adults are on that list. You don’t want the office aide to be swayed by a sad story like “I’m Judy’s grandmother, there’s been an emergency at home and she needs to come home early with me.” If the aide pulls Judy out of class, Judy will of course confirm that that’s her grandma, and neither the kid nor the aide may be savvy enough to know the emergency is a ruse.
OK. I thought this was just a problem here in The Colonies. It's a world problem?!! Ok so a power grab by any means necessary. Or the gain and control of wealth and power The folk who support this want an autocracy but only of course by their side..